The NYT reports:
"West Baltimore’s Police Presence Drops, and Murders Soar."
At least 55 people, the most since the early 1970s, have been murdered in Baltimore since May 1, when the state’s attorney for the city, Marilyn J. Mosby, announced the criminal charges against the officers. Victims of shootings have included people involved in criminal activity and young children who were simply in the wrong place....
At the time of her announcement, Ms. Mosby’s charges were seen as calming the city. But they enraged the police rank and file, who pulled back. The number of arrests plunged, and the murder rate doubled.
55 (in 40 or so days) is
only a doubling?!
The soaring violence has made Baltimore a battleground for political arguments about whether a backlash against police tactics has led to more killings in big cities like New York, St. Louis and Chicago, and whether “de-policing,” as academics call it, can cause crime to rise.
I'm assuming these academics are
promoting de-policing, because the next paragraph scampers to explain why we shouldn't view Baltimore as a failed experiment in de-policing:
[T]he speed and severity of the police pullback here appear unlike anything that has happened in other major cities. And rather than a clear test case, Baltimore is a reminder of how complicated policing issues are and how hard it can be to draw solid conclusions from a month or two of crime and police response.
For example, police commanders here attribute the spike in violence in large part to a unique factor: a flood of black-market opiates stolen from 27 pharmacies during looting in April, enough for 175,000 doses now illegally available for sale....
Meanwhile, there's a new police commander in charge of the worst 3-square-mile area, Sheree Briscoe:
“You cannot just attack the drug trade” alone, she said, citing deep-rooted social and economic challenges, and problems with things like trash, lighting and vacant homes, that needed to be “holistically” addressed.....
Just how much the Police Department changes may depend on the outcome of a Justice Department investigation into whether the force has used abusive patterns and practices against residents. That inquiry may take a year or more....
A year or more of days like the last 40?
Posts
116 comments:
Widely available and subsidized abortion has slowed the growth of the black community, but now liberals see an opportunity for real gains on that front.
"A year or more of days like the last 40?"
Sure, why not? Ask and ye shall receive.
Why stick your neck out when those who can cut it have the blades raised high above your head just waiting for one false move?
"De-policing" sounds like a promising new trend. Not only does it have an ugly name, but it also offers endless opportunities to squander time and money on "studies" to show how complicated everything is.
It's not complicated. Two words: thug rule.
If those escaped convicts are smart, maybe they managed to make a beeline for Baltimore, where the hacker will fit right in and the cop killer will be a hero.
When you're all in on failed policy the exit strategy is not readily apparent.
The difference is that many matters that previously could be handled by a single officer now require two officers to be on the scene. There aren't enough police to effectively manage the streets of Baltimore when two are required instead of one.
The murder rate will slow down. A lot of old scores are being settled that were risky to settle due to heavy police presence. Eventually nearly all of those scores will be settled.
Surprise! Surprise! I am waiting to see what DeBlasio's policies garner in NYC. I imagine it will be similar.
This is why libertarianism is a bullshit ideology. Pull back the cops and you get rule by warlords, probably gang leaders in this case, but basically warlords. The whole purpose of a democratic government is to fill that vacuum robustly enough to prevent others from doing so.
This is how people have lived for millions of years, to steal a line from Flannery O'Connor, "the violent bear it way." We have been fighting our way out of it for 800 years since the Magna Carta, and liberals and libertarians want to push us back.
Gaze into the crystal Baltimore and divine what the future has in store.
When hope and change don't arrive fast enough through peaceful, democratic means, you have to resort to a complete deconstruction of society through violent means.
"55 (in 40 or so days) is only a doubling?!"
Faux surprise, right?
You thought black lives matter to blacks?
Imagine trying to be a responsible parent of a young black kid in Baltimore these days. Not easy.
Big Mike: "Eventually nearly all those old scores will be settled."
You mean, like with the Hatfields and McCoys? The Shia and the Sunni?
Can you offer an over/under on what "eventually" means?
How do we track and quantify "collateral damage"? Those kids in their cribs when the guys drive by?
Haven't we seen police talk about "holistics" before? Usually it is a sign of defeat and failure. Living west of the Mississippi I'm laughing at the eastern "elites".
Just another reason to secure a concealed handgun permit and to exercise it vigorously.
Who are the "academics" who coined the term de-policing? Have any of them worked a midnight patrol in a high crime neighborhood? Why should anyone give a damn about what they think?
The solution is to identify the murderers and hire them as police officers.
I enjoy watching CNN and hearing pundits like Van Jones insist that police shouldn't be pulling back just because they are afraid of being arrested for doing their job.
Three weeks before the incident occurred, Mosbey ordered cops to crack down on drug deals in that area. Then she turns on the department when things get heated. Gee, I wonder why she wants to keep things hidden and people gagged?
This is a political problem. What is the mayor of Baltimore doing, and why is nobody calling her out? She called in the DoJ to "help" her. She needs to talk to the police and find out how to make this work.
Nobody ever questioned whether to hold Guiliani responsible for the NYPD.
Anybody can see Mosbey charging the bike officers who arrested Freddie Gray is what is causing the problem here.
What if she dropped those charges and apologized?
The murder rate will slow down. A lot of old scores are being settled that were risky to settle due to heavy police presence. Eventually nearly all of those scores will be settled.
When do the "new scores" created by the "old scores" become old enough to be eventually settled?
As the saying goes....."Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it"
there's a new police commander in charge of the worst 3-square-mile area, Sheree Briscoe:
“You cannot just attack the drug trade” alone, she said, citing deep-rooted social and economic challenges, and problems with things like trash, lighting and vacant homes, that needed to be “holistically” addressed.....
translation: Please give me a chance, it's not my fault...
wenbrobar said...
As the saying goes....."Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it"
or: May you live in interesting times...
Black lives only matter when white people kill them. Apparently, what gives value to a black life -- at least in the minds of the SJWs -- is the skin color of the person who takes that life. When black people kill black people, oh well, no great loss, it's just a matter of "young children who were simply in the wrong place." Just how many young children has that been? Can you imagine the uproar if white children were getting killed in some big city neighborhood on a routine basis? Or if these black children in Baltimore were getting killed by the police, rather than by one another?
White liberals and the Obama administration are very big on redefining racial discrimination to include disparate impact situations -- policies that have a disproportionate negative effect on some particular group, regardless of intent. By that definition, "depolicing" certainly sounds like racism to me.
My Neo-Nazi Girlfriend who Is Not My Girlfriend and I are at Denny's, and -- as usual -- she is massaging my balls under the table with her feet -- when she asks me if I ever had been stopped by a cop.
"I've had a speeding ticket or two."
"Ohhhh, look at Johnny Outlaw."
"Well, I try not to do things that would make the Police interested in me, that's all."
"I've been cuffed for beating up a bitch."
"That certainly sounds serious," I say, waiting for pancakes to arrive. Why does it take so long for the pancakes to arrive?
"It was a black cop, too."
"Does that matter?"
"No. I respect all Police, mostly."
"It seems some Police are more... aggressive than others."
"Sometimes they need to be aggressive."
"I don't know about that..."
"This is because some black kids got killed, right? It just proves my point."
"What point is that?"
"That there should be a Black Police and a White Police."
"Huh?"
"Yeah. Black Police for black crimes, White Police for white ones. When you call in a report you can ask for which Police you want to arrive. Simple."
"I'm not sure that really solves any problems..."
"Let the blacks call for Black Police if they are so worried about racist cops. Chances are they'll be beaten all the same, but at least those doing the beating aren't White."
"I don't think that is going to make things any less racist..."
"That's because nothing will ever make things any less racist. Anytime a Black and a White interact there will always be racism brought up. Always always."
"That's not true..."
"Have you noticed you always tip the black waitresses more than the white ones? Trying to prove you're not racist, right?"
"I -- I've never noticed that. I think it's just a coincidence, I tip more for better service..."
"And all blacks just happen to be better at 'servant' things? Pretty patronizing if you ask me."
"I said 'service', not 'servant."
"I know you did. And I know what you meant..."
Then: Pancakes. Finally. Brought to the table by a black waitress. I realize things are only going to get more uncomfortable.
"Twenty percent or Thirty?" the Neo-Nazi Girlfriend who Is Not My Girlfriend smiles as she continues to massage my balls with her feet.
Somehow the sex makes it worth it.
I am Laslo.
"What if she dropped those charges and apologized?"
Riots?
Scratch cHarm City off your vacation destination list for the duration.
Blogger Big Mike said...
The murder rate will slow down. A lot of old scores are being settled that were risky to settle due to heavy police presence. Eventually nearly all of those scores will be settled.
6/12/15, 8:38 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------
..and the settling of old scores will open new scores which will have to be settled.
"What if she dropped those charges and apologized?"
Marilyn Mosby is out giving fiery political speeches. She thinks this is her ticket to the big time. Just like Nifong thought with the Duke case. We'll see if it works out better for her than it did for him, what with his disbarment and all. The only time Nifong apologized was when he was finally sentenced to jail.
"The solution is to identify the murderers and hire them as police officers."
Bill Bratton is in trouble for saying that he tried hiring more blacks in NYC but it's hard because they all have criminal records.
My suggestion is to build a wall around Baltimore, like the Israelis did with the West Bank.
The trick is to see Murder is a delayed abortion. That way murder is a popular Constitutional Right emanating from a penumbra of privacy rights penumbras. So it's nobody's business except the righteous killer and the cooperative dead.
Everybody loves a circus!!!
The Oberlin student council is in charge of Baltimore.
@rh
Well, yeah, and the Federal Gov't too.
Ever notice that when Democrats talk about "race" it immediately becomes apparent it is only "black race," meaning African "black" they are talking about?
Could this have anything to do with the other colorations indicating "race" tend to live more spread out and not in defined Democrat organized enclaves?
These issues have been studied, but only on the cheap.
Universities simply cannot afford to study causation factors, when money that could have been spent studying holistic intervention methods created unracistly by unracists (as opposed to the racist, classist, fascist, corporatist, Evangelical twaddle produced before 2011) is diverted into political front groups like FIRE and whatever the Heritage foundation is up to these days.
Koch machines. Koch's are killing our kids!!!!
Coleman Young made great efforts to reduce police brutality in Detroit. Early in his tenure, a police officer got into a fight with a motorist who refused to move his car when so directed by the cop. The cop hit the motorist on the head with his radio. He struck him very hard, and the motorist subsequently died from a fractured skull. The police officer was prosecuted and convicted for first degree murder. You can say that such actions helped to reduce police brutality. You can also say that such actions did nothing to reduce crime.......Coleman Young never lost the support of the black populace, but he eventually lost the black populace who move out of the city because of the crime rate......I think a similar thing will happen in Baltimore. The mayor and the DA wil win their hot elections by wide margins, and Baltimore will wither and die.
"meaning African "black" they are talking about?"
Actually, there are some volunteers, too.
An NAACP leader's parents have made a startling revelation: their daughter, for years a highly visible civil rights activist in Eastern Washington, is white.
Rachel Dolezal, Spokane's NAACP Chapter President and part-time Africana Studies professor at Eastern Washington University, has been misleading people about her ethnicity for years, her parents say.
Her mother even offered photographic proof. While today the 37-year-old divorcee currently sports tight, dark curls, her mom Ruthanne Dolezal showed KREM photos of the fair and freckled blonde daughter she once knew.
Does anybody else winder why we have to read these stories in British newspapers and web sites ?
What a clown show !
"This is why libertarianism is a bullshit ideology. Pull back the cops and you get rule by warlords, probably gang leaders in this case, but basically warlords."
I'm pretty sure "libertarianism" supports the enforcement of laws prohibiting murder.
Mosby is pretty egregious here. She had six officers charged with major crimes when five of them really did nothing wrong, and the sixth was questionable. She may have initially not understood, and now is intentionally ignoring well settled law, that Gray caused reasonable suspicion by running from the cops, justifying a Terry Stop, a Terry Stop is not an arrest, securing a potential suspect who was running from you is the first order of business, the next being searching them for any weapons (for officer safety), that the knife found was likely illegal under Baltimore city law (as clearly cited by the arresting officer) (justifying the arrest of this felon), even though actual illegality was not required for immunity, etc. With the known facts, and good attorneys (paid for by the union), only the driver should even potentially be still charged, and, yet, the other five cops are also still facing felony prosecution. All for political reasons - by the same Mosby who had ordered the police to go esp hard against drug dealers in this neighborhood a couple weeks earlier. And, yes, Gray was exactly the sort of drug dealer she had ordered them to go hard against, with his 18 arrests in the previous 8 years.
It is very, very simple. The police aren't going to (and nobody should expect them to) police aggressively until Mosby backs down, releases at least five of the charged officers, and maybe even grovels a bit. Rationally, they are going to police very defensively until this happens.
Freddie Gray died in police custody. Somebody screwed up. But the effort to portray the cops involved as some kind of brutish monsters is vile and wrong. Ditto with that poor cop in McKinnon, Texas. You put these guys in stressful situations, and then want to criminally prosecute them for being stressed out.......I wish the left and the black community worth extend the same amount of sympathy and nuance to these cops as they do to, say, Mike Tyson and Ray Rice.
There's a promising new drug for those who just don't feel comfortable in their own skin.
It's called Dolezal.
Tim in Vermont said:
This is why libertarianism is a bullshit ideology. Pull back the cops and you get rule by warlords, probably gang leaders in this case, but basically warlords. The whole purpose of a democratic government is to fill that vacuum robustly enough to prevent others from doing so.
Except that you have it completely backasswards. Libertarians (or liberals as I prefer) support the police powers of the state. Perhaps the core belief of liberal thought is that the police powers, including military, criminal courts, jails and the like, are pretty much the sole legitimate function of government.
It is usually expressed as something along the lines of "Govt should have a monopoly on the use of force and use that monopoly only to prevent the use of force against others.
I don't know any liberals who would have a problem with using the police to enforce legitimate laws. Many of the laws imposed on us by govt are bullshit laws. Many exist mainly to give the cops something to do and to make criminals of us all. (How many felonies have you committed so far today, Tim?)
How much of the criminality in Baltimore is driven by the illegal drug trade. Make that legal and most of the associated violence would go away.
No, Tim, pretty much every liberal I've ever seen or heard supports a strong police force enforcing legitimate laws, mainly laws against the use of violence. Murder, theft, rioting, assault and so on.
John Henry
I think I remember that a few years back the president of the NAACP was a "white" Jew, and presumably an honorary "black."
That's OK, but it is noticeable that an Indian or Australian, f. ex., can be "blacker" than any African-American but it will avail them not, if they are not from the 'hood and certifiable Democrat.
Darren Wilson did nothing wrong. But he lost his job and has to go through life with a low level of anxiety about being attacked by some nut job. He is the victim of an injustice, and there will be no redress for it.
The McKinnon Texas case is already unraveling. This party was organized by a girl and her mother who live in the condo complex but who had no permission for that party. The HOA is now suing the mother and daughter and the true story will all come out.
The mother was running a business with underage girls they called "Dime girls," meaning a "10" in appearance, and inviting adult men to have sexual hijinks with the 14 year old girls, like the one the cop was trying to control.
There is even a TV station doing a story.
tim in vermont said...
This is why libertarianism is a bullshit ideology.
Be serious tim. Libertarians want the police to be more professional, and both sides to de-escalate rather than escalate.
Pat a progressive on the back for this. We are stupid people.
I asked Tim how many felonies he had committed today. I only know Tim from his comments here and assume that he makes a good faith effort to be a law abiding citizen. As do I and as do most Americans.
My reference was to the fact that we have so many laws, sometimes contradictory, that every American is said to commit 2 felonies a day without even knowing it.
Nobody even knows how many federal criminal laws there are:
In 1982, while at the Justice Department, Mr. Gainer oversaw what still stands as the most comprehensive attempt to tote up a number. The effort came as part of a long and ultimately failed campaign to persuade Congress to revise the criminal code, which by the 1980s was scattered among 50 titles and 23,000 pages of federal law.
...
The project stretched two years. In the end, it produced only an educated estimate: about 3,000 criminal offenses. Since then, no one has tried anything nearly as extensive.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304319804576389601079728920
How can any of us obey the law when nobody even knows what the law is?
Many of us think there is a reason for this:
“Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with.”
John Henry
Seems a lot of people here opposed policing the police no matter what they do, and no matter if their misbehavior is proven on video. I can't follow that. Police behaving criminally is part of the crime rate, and I want them stopped.
There are consequences to brutal police. A short-term drop in the crime rate isn't worth training a whole generation of people in the inner city that police are just another gang.
I want police to fight violent crime strongly. I want police to be held fully responsible for their actions. Those two may be in tension, but they are not in contradiction.
The NYT is surprised that shootings and killings and crime goes up when police pull back? But think that may be a good thing?
And in related news:
Morsy and Rothstein examined new research that details racial and class differences in child-rearing styles among parents, suggesting that parenting styles account for some of the differences in school readiness between black children from low-income families and white children from more affluent homes.
White adults spend 36 percent more time than black adults reading to young children, and three times more time talking with and listening to them, according to research Morsy and Rothstein cite. White parents not only read more to their children, they offer more guidance and are more strategic about helping children build their literacy skills.
By age 6, white children typically have spent 1,300 more hours engaged in conversations with adults than black children have. White parents also tend to offer their children more choices in daily life, helping them to think through decisions and consequences, which are important skills that prepare them for critical thinking, according to the research.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/06/white-privilege-and-how-to-spread-it-around.php
There's a promising new drug for those who just don't feel comfortable in their own skin.
It's called Dolezal.
I'm all for this. Pick your race, pick your gender, whatever you feel.
I mean, if everyone is a minority, then no one is a minority. Right?
Fastest way to get rid of our stupid laws and rules that favor race and gender is to allow anyone to pick whatever race or gender they want to be.
Then we get our color blind society.
Anyone still want that?
The mother was running a business with underage girls they called "Dime girls," meaning a "10" in appearance
Actually the party was called the Dime Piece Cookout, as in [10 Rating] [Piece of ---].
But your focus on "adult" men with 14 year old girls is misleading. The ages were 19 and under for both groups. So while that's possible there's no reason to believe it's the focus.
"Forget it Jake, it's Baltimore" is a phrase that comes to mind.
(Riffing on John Candy's "Polynesiantown")
And my previous note about too many laws reminded me of something on The Wire, to bring it back to Baltimore.
I had never heard of "a humble" before watching the show. From the Urban Dictionary:
A charge given by a police officer, not meant to stick but to give a corner boy or known criminal a hard time. Or humble/ quiet thier wrong doings.
Eg. Q: ay i heard the jump outs rolled up on u yesterday?
A: yea i was out that night they just hit me wit a humble
In other words, bullshit laws meant to give the police the means to harass a citizen when they can't find anything legitimate.
The entire concept is odious.
John Henry
@eric
Yeah.
Like the star-bellied Sneeches and the plain-bellied Sneeches.
Murder isn't the worst of it. Usually when a city goes native, arson goes up. Property owners liquidate and begin cashing-in on the insurance money.
Seems a lot of people here opposed policing the police no matter what they do, and no matter if their misbehavior is proven on video. I can't follow that. Police behaving criminally is part of the crime rate, and I want them stopped.
In regards to Gray, in Baltimore, one of the six officers charged with felonies may have done something wrong - the driver. The other five? Most likely not. They were charged to quiet Mosby's Husband's constituents, who were starting to riot. Which pretty much every attorney here would probably agree is pretty egregiously unethical.
I don't think that anyone should be surprised that there are bad cops out there. After all, they are government employees and mostly unionized. But it is a hard, dangerous job, esp in inner city ghettos, and we, unfortunately, get some on the margins. Maybe too many. But it isn't a job I would be willing to do.
@LarsPorsena, noted. However I still anticipate a net damping down effect over time, though nothing guarantees that the current homicide rate (roughly ten victims per week) will not spike further due to the effect you describe before it starts to decline.
One should also consider that gangs may step in to provide "order" (of sorts) in the absence of regular laws enforced by police. That would also have a damping down effect on homicides.
"Police behaving criminally is part of the crime rate, and I want them stopped."
So, would you ming giving a few examples ?
Don't quote the Rodney King case because that was a hoax. The Clinton DoJ came in and did a double jeopardy trial.
The case in Orange County was probably an example but the cops were acquitted.
"But your focus on "adult" men with 14 year old girls is misleading. The ages were 19 and under for both groups."
The girls were 14 and 15. Boys 19 and up are adults in my book.
And remarkably no one in BM is interested in an investigation of what percentage of big city drug revenues winds up in the pockets of the local pols.
Coupe said...
Murder isn't the worst of it. Usually when a city goes native, arson goes up. Property owners liquidate and begin cashing-in on the insurance money.
Known in the legal business as: "A Good Fire"
The sarcasm on this thread is as much as any I have ever heard.
And all deserved.
Michael K said...
"But your focus on "adult" men with 14 year old girls is misleading. The ages were 19 and under for both groups."
The girls were 14 and 15. Boys 19 and up are adults in my book.
Invitees of both sexes were "19 and under". What makes you match 19 year old males with 14 year old females?
"The murder rate will slow down. A lot of old scores are being settled that were risky to settle due to heavy police presence. Eventually nearly all of those scores will be settled."
If you kill someone to settle a score, then his friends may have a score to settle with you. So, beefs are not squashed.
Libertarians want the police to be more professional, and both sides to de-escalate rather than escalate
Yeah, and unicorns shit cotton candy. Maybe on a island where all the men wear bow ties.
"What makes you match 19 year old males with 14 year old females?"
Why not read the story ? That's who was there.
"Known in the legal business as: "A Good Fire"
As my father used to put it, "A Successful Fire."
@ tim in vermont
Unicorns shit happy jelly beans with smiley faces.
And they fart rainbow sprinkles.
Apparently.
http://www.sugarhai.com/unican.shtml
Cotton candy is probably the unicorn equivalent of explosive diarrhea.
Scores are not settled. They are recycled. As in retributive/redistributive change. It's a cartel action that is amoral and opportunistic, and degenerative. Perhaps they think that thinning the population (e.g. abortion, gender equivalence, trans equivalence) and class diversification (i.e. migration, immigration) will control the conflict and reduce the problem set.
"that we have so many laws, sometimes contradictory, that every American is said to commit 2 felonies a day without even knowing it.
Nobody even knows how many federal criminal laws there are"
while that is true, criminals also violate the laws they do know are laws. Libertarians conflate the two Because they want certain laws to not be laws. And ao they profess some ignorance on the part of the person violating the law.
Do you think all ths people who sell drugs are unaware that they are violating the law as the do it?
Considering Eric Garner was arrested so many times for selling Loosies that cops knew him as "cigarette man" can we really make the argument that he was ignorant of the law?
It needs to be pointed out yet again-
The social justice warriors (formerly known as the media) are batting 1.000 when "covering" social injustices that are made from whole cloth:
-discrimination and abuse of the LGBT community where non existed, or created by "hoax".
--discrimination and abuse of women (rape) where non existed, or created by "hoax"
---racism against blacks where non existed, or created by "hoax"
----police brutality where non existed, or created by hoax
So, ask yourself why is it that nearly every (I'd say every) case of social injustice trumped up by the media isn't, and the daily incidents in which these crimes do occur are never covered?
Coincidence? bad luck?
Michael K said...
"What makes you match 19 year old males with 14 year old females?"
Why not read the story ?
I did. There's no evidence of people matching this way, much less that it's the entire goal of the party organizer. It's asserted by a critic but only with the same assumptions you repeat: that since the tackled girl and friend are 14-15 we can presume they match with the oldest age group of males invited, then omit mention of older girls implying this match is the expectation.
You're way ahead of the evidence.
"I want police to fight violent crime strongly. I want police to be held fully responsible for their actions. Those two may be in tension, but they are not in contradiction."
Fight crime strongly? Sure, let's do that. Of course you are asking that of cops when they are in tense, potentially life threatening situations day after day. When inaction may get you or your fellow cops killed. When your actions will be videoed and dissected millisecond by millisecond by less than sympathetic viewers. Where large segments o the population have already branded you as a brutal racist just itching to hunt down young, black men. Where your name and image are broadcast so you will never know a moments peace again. Where your bosses, like mayors and Police Chiefs want to send you out to their advantage but will throw you under the bus. Where the DOJ has a target on your back. Where "fully accountable" includes politicians covering their own backside by throwing you to the wolves... Sure, no contradiction at all.
tim in vermont said...
Libertarians want the police to be more professional, and both sides to de-escalate rather than escalate
Yeah, and unicorns shit cotton candy. Maybe on a island where all the men wear bow ties.
You may think this an unrealistic goal, but you wrote that the goal was to have no policing. Why so ridiculous a charge?
Owen said...
"De-policing" sounds like a promising new trend. ...
It's not complicated. Two words: thug rule.
You need thugs for that. Around here there are essentially no police within 50 miles and there's only been one actual crime in 3 years (some Indians broke a window and stole $32 worth of beer).
The "Fox Butterfield Effect": "Violence Against African-Americans Soars Despite Police Withdrawal"
Heck, the people getting wounded and murdered are only lower-caste blacks, why should the academics who favor de-policing consider their suffering evidence of failure?
"Do you think all ths people who sell drugs are unaware that they are violating the law as the do it? Considering Eric Garner was arrested so many times for selling Loosies that cops knew him as "cigarette man" can we really make the argument that he was ignorant of the law? "
Nobody made those claims.
You may think this an unrealistic goal, but you wrote that the goal was to have no policing. Why so ridiculous a charge?
Your belief that "both sides" will de-escalate. That violet criminals will become less so if you back off and don't engage them. Sure, they will be less violent to the *police.* But they will just set up their own little government and taxation system (extortion) to fill the vacuum.
"No they won't" is not an answer.
How much of the criminality in Baltimore is driven by the illegal drug trade. Make that legal and most of the associated violence would go away.
Yeah, OK, heroin and meth etc is all legal and available at CVS or Walgreens over the counter. How does this cut down on crime? Addict still needs money for drugs. Criminal junkie now still gonna be a criminal when drugs are legal. Criminal addict still gonna rob, prostitute and steal. Criminals going to steal the legal drugs and sell them cheaper on the street. I can never get a realistic answer to this question.
Legalizing marijuana, on the other hand, lessens the chances of a dope smoker being exposed to harder drugs. Every dealer selling weed has access to hard drugs, whether she is selling them personally, or "knows a guy".
"This is why libertarianism is a bullshit ideology. Pull back the cops and you get rule by warlords, probably gang leaders in this case, but basically warlords. The whole purpose of a democratic government is to fill that vacuum robustly enough to prevent others from doing so."
Oh really? Since when has Baltimore city government been run by libertarians?
Seems more like progressivism and allowing law enforcement to unionize and call their own shots reflects a bullshit ideology.
tim in vermont said...
You may think this an unrealistic goal, but you wrote that the goal was to have no policing. Why so ridiculous a charge?
Your belief that "both sides" will de-escalate.
I didn't say I believe it will happen. But arguendo let's assume that's true. How does the fact that I expect de-escalation translate into police backing off or de-policing?
Did you never see Roadhouse? Be polite. That's it, no big deal.
(Interesting to note that less than 8,000 black people live in Vermont.)
Interesting,not crazy said...
Yeah, OK, heroin and meth etc is all legal and available at CVS or Walgreens over the counter. How does this cut down on crime?
The same way that ending alcohol prohibition cut down on crime. A large percentage of slum murders are drug-related in that dealers are fighting over territory, like they did when alcohol was illegal.
Addict still needs money for drugs.
Very few drug users are addicts.
Criminals going to steal the legal drugs and sell them cheaper on the street. I can never get a realistic answer to this question.
Just like that big market for stolen alcohol!
Every dealer selling weed has access to hard drugs, whether she is selling them personally, or "knows a guy".
Nonsense.
From Vermont
The world looks blue and green
And the snow capped mountains white
From Vermont
The ocean meets the stream
And the eagle takes to flight
From Vermont
There is harmony
And it echoes through the land
Its the voice of hope
Its the voice of peace
Its the voice of every man
From Vermont
We all have enough
And no one is in need
And there are no guns, no bombs and no disease
No hungry mouths to feed
From Vermont
We are instruments
Marching in a common band
Playing songs of hope
Playing songs of peace
They are the songs of every man
God is watching us
God is watching us
God is watching us
From Vermont
From Vermont
You look like my friend
Even though we are at war
From Vermont
I just cannot comprehend
What all this fightings for
From Vermont
There is harmony
And it echoes through the land
And its the hope of hopes
Its the love of loves
Its the heart of every man
God is watching us
God is watching us
God is watching us
From Vermont
God is watching us
God is watching us
God is watching us
From Vermont
--Lillian Hellman
I am in a very strange mood today. TGIF
tim in Vermont said...This is why libertarianism is a bullshit ideology. Pull back the cops and you get rule by warlords, probably gang leaders in this case, but basically warlords. The whole purpose of a democratic government is to fill that vacuum robustly enough to prevent others from doing so.
Well no, this doesn't show that libertarianism is a bullshit ideology, but I'll agree it does show that a lack of policing combined with a state-enforced and culturally-embedded stigma against being personally responsible for one's own (and one's family's, community's, etc) personal safety and an overall social framework of "dependent on Big Gov" is a bad combination, for sure.
"You're way ahead of the evidence."
Yes, so you wait and get back to me if it is any different than what I wrote.
It's awful how decades of Libertarian rule in our society has led to so much death and destruction.
Yes, so you wait and get back to me if it is any different than what I wrote.
While this may all be well and true, that would constitute a separate investigation than the brouhaha at the Craig Ranch pool. I went to the link and found the evidence to be at best circumstantial outside of the meanings of the words. They refused to link to the social media to protect their innocent little readers (which was lame and makes me believe it doesn't actually support the theory as much as they want it to)
The girl in the video may be a "dimepiece" or prostitute, but that doesn't justify Casebolt's actions toward her.
Fernandinande said: "...Around here there are essentially no police within 50 miles and there's only been one actual crime in 3 years (some Indians broke a window and stole $32 worth of beer)."
Don't brag!
Seriously, that sounds like a pretty civilized environment. My point rested on an unstated assumption that, for any given situation, there is an appropriate range of thug/cop ratios and a "least bad" level of policing. Which in the case of West Baltimore has been abrogated thanks to the genius and courage of leaders like Marilyn Mosby.
Michael K,
If you would get out of your ridiculous worship of anything wearing a badge, you would see there are literally thousands of instances of police misconduct and brutality every year. This is unsurprising with total law enforcement contacts with citizens running in the millions each year, but it does happen.
Casebolt was out of control. He himself admitted it, attributing it to the stress of dealing with two suicide related calls earlier in the day.
You are coming off as a fucking clown pushing the narrative that never, under any circumstances (and McKinney in particular)does law enforcement ever make mistakes.
So go fuck yourself.
Those two "suicide related calls" earlier in that McKinney cop's day included a viewing of a father blowing his brains out in front of his wife and kids.
Try to process that scene President Mom Jeans. You might cut Casebolt some slack.
Now as Prosecutor Mosby and the Mayor of Baltimore will learn, to paraphrase an old Rolling Stones song, "You can't always get what you want---but sometimes you get what you asked for."
Black on black homicide--aka known as "getting killed when walking while black" has gone on in an unending stream in South Central Los Angeles for 50 years now. It shows no signs of slowing down. And so it goes in Chicago, Detroit and Baltimore.
The mothers and brothers of those shot dead frequently lament that the Police just don't care--they're not there.
And now they've been ordered --effectively--not to be there.
ernandinande said... [hush][hide comment]
Interesting,not crazy said...
Yeah, OK, heroin and meth etc is all legal and available at CVS or Walgreens over the counter. How does this cut down on crime?
The same way that ending alcohol prohibition cut down on crime. A large percentage of slum murders are drug-related in that dealers are fighting over territory, like they did when alcohol was illegal.
Addict still needs money for drugs.
Very few drug users are addicts.
Criminals going to steal the legal drugs and sell them cheaper on the street. I can never get a realistic answer to this question.
Just like that big market for stolen alcohol!
Every dealer selling weed has access to hard drugs, whether she is selling them personally, or "knows a guy".
Nonsense.
Sure, OK. So we have zero murders between drug dealers , for arguments sake. What about the prostitution, thievery, robbery and murder now taking place to get money for drugs. How does legalizing drugs eliminate this behavior? Criminal still needs money to buy drugs. Where do they get it without committing a crime? That is my question. Medical marijuana readily available in California. How does the criminal get money for his legal weed? Thief still a thief mugger gonna still mug, pro still a pro, whether pot is legal, or not. Main benefit of legalizing hard drugs is control of quality and a safe environment for purchase and tax money for govt. Still doesn't change drug related crime much beyond murder between dealers.
@Original Mike:
You wrote "I'm pretty sure "libertarianism" supports the enforcement of laws prohibiting murder."
Sadly this is not always so. Most libertarians do of course. But I urge you to check into the views on "private law" emanating from Libertarians of the Rothbard stripe. Walter Block is another name. On one site, consultingbyrpm.com, of this ilk we debated just this issue.
As one who leans heavily libertarian I find this crowd an embarassment.
@Ken B: I'm not surprised. Every discipline has it's loons.
Mrs Whatsit: Black lives only matter when white people kill them. Apparently, what gives value to a black life -- at least in the minds of the SJWs
Whoa!
Daaaammmmmmm......
Can I use that?
6/12/15, 9:02 AM
By that definition, "depolicing" certainly sounds like racism to me.
Oh, some similar things have been said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/07/opinion/no-justice-no-police.html
If the Police Department’s current commanders cannot get the cops to do their jobs, Mr. de Blasio should consider replacing them.
He should invite the Justice Department to determine if the police are guilty of civil rights violations in withdrawing policing from minority communities.
Sammy Finkelman--if the statement that " "depolicing" certainly sounds like racism to me" truly comes from you---I'd have to say that is one of the most outrageous things I've read on this blog.
It's about as smart as the fat kid in Animal House saying "Women--can't live with them, can't live without them".
You put police in a no win situation---they're racist if they police the black community effectively, they're racist if they withdraw policing from minority communities. That's a heads they lose, tails they lose proposition.
Where is General William T. Sherman when you need him?
This reaction by the police and the reaction to the police reaction by the criminals is predictable.
Let's be honest. Baltimore, like St. Louis, Detroit, New Orleans and Oakland, is violent shithole for the most part. They are consistently in the top 5 of most violent cities per capita in the U.S. Like the rest of the country, the violent crime rate has dropped there over the last 25 years. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it is still bad. It is a very bad career choice to join law enforcement in those cities.
That's a heads they lose, tails they lose proposition.
Or from a lefty perspective: A WIN WIN!
I didn't say I believe it will happen. But arguendo let's assume that's true. How does the fact that I expect de-escalation translate into police backing off or de-policing?
Watch The Godfather. What is a police force that won't engage thugs going to do about a guy like that, with his mobsters, violence, control over the local population. Soon he has the police force corrupted.
The Godfather is a representation of a way that people have lived forever. Paying Danegeld so that they won't be harassed. But sure, as long as the Mafia, in that case, is left alone, there won't be a lot of police killings and your conscience will be clean. 'Til they show up at your door demanding extortion payments.
Supposedly Whitey Bulger and the Winter Hill Gang kept the North End of Boston pretty "crime free" Since the crime was "organized" it rarely got messy.
Skeptical Voter said...
Sammy Finkelman--if the statement that " "depolicing" certainly sounds like racism to me" truly comes from you---I'd have to say that is one of the most outrageous things I've read on this blog.
No, it doesm't come from me. That came from "Mrs Whatsit" at 9:02 am, Central Time.
I noted that there had actually been a New York Times editorial that sais something close to that. Curtis Sliwa prctically sputted on WABC 770 AM radio in New York when he read that.
You put police in a no win situation---they're racist if they police the black community effectively, they're racist if they withdraw policing from minority communities. That's a heads they lose, tails they lose proposition
I didn't set up that dilemma. And actually all the "Civil Righs" crusaders will not do it. I would indeed say the withdrawing policing is the problem.
I would say the unequal protection of the laws is the fact that someone can get away with far more for far longer in these neighborhoods.
I don't think it's racism but it is much closer to racism than what they are complaining about. I think it;s actually caused by political neglect. I think this has been going on since the 1930's - since shortly after racial segregation on a neighboor wide basis set in in housing and it's responsible for the much higher crime rate among blacks. I think some of it was caused by bribery by organized crime, which wanted to sell heroin there.
tim in vermont said... 06/12/15, 4:53 PM
Supposedly Whitey Bulger and the Winter Hill Gang kept the North End of Boston pretty "crime free" Since the crime was "organized" it rarely got messy.
They kept it free maybe of crimes committed by otehr people. he did plenty of murders.
The street crime they confined to black neighborhoods.
In the 1940s, police would actually make blacks who venturd into Tmes Square nervous. Much later, they were not so pvertly racist, but municipal policy was to keep crime confiend to the black neighborhoods. But in the 1960s they discovered that the black neighborhoods didn't stay where they were. When crime got too bad, people moved. Eventually, housing would get destroyed, like in the south Bronx or Detroit.
The main reason the real attention was on confinig crime, was that it cost money to fight it. And took more effort.
The real non-racists were Mayors Giuliani and Bloomberg.
tim in vermont said... 6/12/15, 4:51 PM Watch The Godfather. What is a police force that won't engage thugs going to do about a guy like that, with his mobsters, violence, control over the local population. Soon he has the police force corrupted.
They pretended to have a policy of not selling drugs and that's in the movie. Jimmy Breslin mocked this thing in his 1991 book about Damon Runyon, as akin to John D. Rockefeller saying we will never sell oil.
There was a policy, mainly to fool Harry Ansliger, head of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics of not selling drugs, but what this meant was that the selling of drugs was s very closely and tightly kept operation. J Edgar Hoover was kept from interfering by convincing him, until 1957.. that the Mafia did not exist)
They brobed the police to ignore street crime, and also were for liberal judges who would not punish people. The addicts had to be allowed to continue stealing. I think there may something like this going on right now.
A lot of the corruption was found out around 1948, but the pattern of crime in black neighborhoods was too entrenched and eveyrone had a self-interested motive to not fight it as long as it remained there. Then in the the 1950s, you had juvenile delinquency laws which reduced penalties for crime, and then organized crime won a lawsuit in the United States Supreme Court, Mapp vs Ohio, 367 U.S. 643 (1961), which extended the exclusionary rule to the states.
Another Supreme Court decision won by organized crime was Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967) which outlaws wiretapping even if the evidence would not be used in court.
The cops can retreat all they want.
I live in TEXAS, where everyone has a gun.
Riot all you want in liberal land, but try that shot down here and see what happens.
tim
You're defining de-escalation as de-policing. This is not true. So using the consequences of de-policing to argue against de-escalation is not logically sound.
I want professionals to treat everyone with respect while policing, and the institution to enforce professional standards. This is not de-policing.
I lived in Bawlmer for the entire 1990s. That was when the local drug dealers were having a long turf war with Jamaicans out of New York, or so the Sun used to report during the years we had a murder a day, year in and year out.
While there may be old scores being settled, I would suggest that right now the gangs are expanding and gerrymandering their territories, secure in the knowledge that right now no officer is going to challenge a recognized "community reorganizer" who is shooting up some drug dealers to take their corner.
I thank God every day that I no longer live in that cesspit of a city.
Mosby made serious mistakes in the following respects. First, she should not have charged false arrest. That charge has already fallen apart because the knife is arguably illegal under Baltimore ordinances.
Second, and more importantly, she should not have brought charges based on negligence or recklessness because that signaled to cops that if they make a mistake, they would be second-guessed. (Not to mention that the depraved heart charge is ridiculous because Gray's death was an unforseeable fluke.) She should either have brought a straight-up second degree murder charge based on intent or no murder charge at all. I think that there is probable cause for a second degree murder charge - absent some explanation of why Gray was trussed and bound and tossed faced down in the paddy wagon, it looks like he was deliberately given a "rough ride" to punish him for running from the arresting officers by banging him up a little bit. If that's the case, and if he died, as he apparently did, as the result of that rough ride, then that's second degree murder. Forseeability of a fatal injury is not required in an intentional case: "you take your victim as you find him." All that is required is proof of intent to inflict some harm and a death resulting from that harm. That charge would be hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt without some independent evidence of intent (e.g., another cop testifying that the driver said he was going to teach Gray a lesson) but it would be a lot closer to the facts than the charge she did bring and would tell cops that they would only be punished if they intentionally harmed a perp, not for accidental or incidental harm.
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