The bullets National Guardsmen fired into a group of student demonstrators at Kent State University on May 4, 1970, were meant to deescalate a situation spiraling out of control. Instead, they inspired a host of demonstrations on campuses across the U.S., and left four students dead, one permanently paralyzed and another eight wounded....
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127 comments:
One thing that took me decades to find out - of the four students who were killed, only two of them were participating in the peace protest. The other two were passersby - and one of them was in ROTC.
Of course, that makes no difference in terms of whether the students deserved to be shot or not - they didn't. None of them.
Is dissent a crime? No. But confronting frightened and poorly disciplined people carrying guns is stupid, and stupidity is often fatal.
Crosby, Stills and Nash AND Kent State in one morning.
Almost forgot to get my hair cut today.
I am Laslo
What appalls is how many Americans then--and probably now--thought they deserved to be shot.
So many Americans proclaim their "freedom" so boistrously, yet submit to slavery so hungrily.
Big Mike said...
Is dissent a crime? No. But confronting frightened and poorly disciplined people carrying guns is stupid, and stupidity is often fatal.
a thousand people, some of whom are throwing rocks at guys with guns is ultimately a crap shoot.
the Guard was out numbered, poorly led, and perhaps provoked by a guy in the crowd with a pistol.
"What appalls is how many Americans then--and probably now--thought they deserved to be shot."
I don't remember that at all.
"I don't remember that at all."
You can't have been paying attention.
Robert Cook: "What appalls is how many Americans then--and probably now--thought they deserved to be shot."
Professor: I don't remember that at all.
There were anecdotes. James Michener wrote an account of Kent State which described a man who taunted a group of students by flashing four fingers and saying, "This time we got four of you bastards. Next time we'll get more." And supposedly there was a macabre jingle that started going around: "The score is four. And next time more."
America seems headed toward a repetition of that history.
I was far too young to understand Nixon's appeal to the "silent majority" then. That campaign is likely to recur. Real hedonists and real anarchists and socialists are on the rise.
Worth remembering that the protests weren't peaceful.
The guardsmen weren't wrong to be scared.
I don't think there was much intent behind the mess at Kent State.
My Pastor was a policeman at Kent State. And a Viet Nam vet. His version is slightly different.
I remember it at the time, and being completely indifferent to it; as I am today.
It was media cause of the week and for some reason stayed.
"I don't remember that at all."
You can't have been paying attention.
Heck, she's not even paying attention to this comment thread.
She must be willfully ignorant.
The lesson that should be learned, any time you call-up the Army, that there will be a body count if the people don't respect that they have lost the battle, and should flee.
"Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming" the second verse is the predictable part.
Freder Frederson, why aren't you commenting multiple times on every comment thread? You must be willfully ignorant.
Fish in a barrel.
Usurping this week's Derbyshire analogy, if you say you're going to attend a rock-throwing event at guys with guns, life insurance people are not going to be rushing to sell you policies.
Skydivers and rock climbers have the same problem.
You probably don't die but the risk is higher.
It's nothing about justice.
The guardsmen weren't wrong to be scared.
I don't think anyone would claim they were wrong to be scared. Where they were wrong was firing indiscriminately into a crowd.
Fear does not justify a break down in discipline.
Indeed, it was not peaceful (Wikipedia grain-of-salt disclaimer):
(snip)
Trouble exploded in town around midnight, when people left a bar and began throwing beer bottles at police cars and breaking downtown storefronts. In the process they broke a bank window, setting off an alarm. The news spread quickly and it resulted in several bars closing early to avoid trouble. Before long, more people had joined the vandalism.
By the time police arrived, a crowd of 120 had already gathered. Some people from the crowd had already lit a small bonfire in the street. The crowd appeared to be a mix of bikers, students, and transient people. A few members of the crowd began to throw beer bottles at the police, and then started yelling obscenities at them. The entire Kent police force was called to duty as well as officers from the county and surrounding communities. Kent Mayor LeRoy Satrom declared a state of emergency, called Ohio Governor Jim Rhodes' office to seek assistance, and ordered all of the bars closed.
Very sad and very dangerous.
I'm sure Crosby, Stills and Nash will milk the dry teats of this anniversary at their next show, Then continue to ride into the gaping maw that is their utter irrelevance.
I am Laslo.
So many Americans proclaim their "freedom" so boistrously, yet submit to slavery so hungrily.
Very ironic, coming from a commie........
I don't remember that at all.
I do. I had people I had previously respected tell me that the dead and wounded students "got what they deserved." I tried to point out that two of the dead and one of the wounded were just ordinary students on their way to class, but no one was listening.
On the second day, it was in the newspaper again.
What is this story doing here again today? That was the question on everybody's lips.
Whevener there's a stink in the papers about something, it's because some politician or charity wants a stink in the papers. - (Vicki) Hearne's Law
10,000 Americans (round numbers) die every day. - Hardin's law
4 isn't news.
Gerry, how does a disturbance at the bar on Friday night lead to defensive shooting people mid day on Monday?
They must had a hell of an arm if the stones came down 3 days later.
Robert Cook said...
"I don't remember that at all."
"You can't have been paying attention."
Problem is we are. The vast majority of us realize that the NG should have had rubber bullets and tear gas to disperse the rioters that were buring things in the streets and throwing rocks through windows and trying to burn down the campus. The clear motivation of the shooter here was fear.
Now juxtapose this with communist/socialist uprisings elsewhere and the rising police state that always follows. They shoot people to cause fear. Then they kill off dissenters and intellectuals in mass.
In the US we lament four tragic deaths. In China they celebrate May Day on the graves of 50-100 million people. I really wish you would move to your communist paradise and leave this country you so hate.
"What appalls is how many Americans then--and probably now--thought they deserved to be shot."
Who thought they deserved to get shot? A lot of people thought the shooting was an unfortunate accident, or that the protesters who charged the guardsmen wrongfully escalated the situation, and some even thought the guardsmen shot at the crowd in self-defense. But I don't recall reading about any significant number of people seriously saying the dead students got what they deserved.
@Drill SGT, I have to say that the two biggest differences between the army and National Guard of the Vietnam era, when I served, and the army of today are the quality of training and the quality of leadership.
This picture from Kent State shows a uniformed man with a handgun -- almost certainly a commissioned officer -- shooting at the protestors. He has totally lost control of his men.
Real hedonists and real anarchists and socialists are on the rise.
They are rising again, now, as The One becomes even more lame, as his power fades.
"
There were anecdotes. James Michener wrote an account of Kent State which described a man who taunted a group of students by flashing four fingers and saying, "This time we got four of you bastards. Next time we'll get more." And supposedly there was a macabre jingle that started going around: "The score is four. And next time more.""
That sounds more like some nutjobs or the '70s version of trolling than any widely held opinion. Granted, I wasn't alive at the time, but most of what I read about Kent State suggests that the mainstream opinions about that incident ranged from the outraged (on the left) to those making excuses for the guardsmen (on the right), but not really a large contingent who were happy about it.
The whole thing can be seen as a breakdown in discipline. From the radicals who attacked the ROTC building the previous night, to the protesters who charged the guardsmen, to the guardsmen who panicked and fired live rounds into the crowd--just a mess all around.
"What appalls is how many Americans then--and probably now--thought they deserved to be shot."
From Grand Jury testimony:
"Fifty-eight Guardsmen were injured by rocks and other objects hurled at them as they moved across the 'Commons' to Taylor Hall Hill and down to the practice football field, and were then forced to retreat .... it is clear that from the time the Guard reached the practice football field, they were on the defensive and had every reason to be concerned for their own welfare .... The circumstances present at that time indicate that 74 men surrounded by several hundred hostile rioters were forced to retreat back up the hill toward Taylor Hall under a constant barrage of rocks and other flying objects, accompanied by a constant flow of obscenities and chants such as 'Kill, Kill, Kill.'
"The testimony of the students and Guardsmen is clear that several members of the Guard were knocked to the ground or to their knees by the force of the objects thrown at them. Although some rioters claim that only a few rocks were thrown, the testimony of construction workers in the area has established that 200 bricks were taken from a nearby construction site. Various students were observed carrying rocks in sacks to the 'rally'; others brought gas masks and other equipment from off campus in obvious anticipation of what was to happen. Rocks had been stockpiled in the immediate vicinity and cries of 'Get the rocks' were heard as the Guardsmen went onto the practice field. There was additional evidence that advance planning had occurred in connection with the 'rally' held at noon on May fourth."
Damn right they deserved to be shot. So screw you, commie.
Damn right they deserved to be shot. So screw you, commie.
Was wondering why this post was taking so long.
Big Mike said...
This picture from Kent State shows a uniformed man with a handgun -- almost certainly a commissioned officer -- shooting at the protestors. He has totally lost control of his men.
That the officers lost control, I agree. That the origination was by a commissioned officer, the facts don't support that reasonable assumption. Apparently a SGT with a 45 opened fire.
From Wiki:At 12:24 pm,[1] according to eyewitnesses, a Sgt. Myron Pryor turned and began firing at the students with his .45 pistol.[26]
Is there a calendar available that lists all the Event Commemoration Dates that matter to the Baby Boomers?
Me, I'm tired of decade after decade of self-important reflection over one generation's self-inflicted wounds.
Bring back Disco.
I am Laslo.
Of course there was an undercurrent of "those goddam hippies got what they deserved." Remember, by 1970, folks had seen many, many riots on the evening news. They were sick of them, and fearful of the riots coming to their own towns.
Today college students (and outside agitators, too!) riot over sporting events. Now, as back in 1970, there are bystanders who get hurt when things get violent.
The guardsmen were badly led. Still, they should not have fired into the crowd. It's a wonder that more people weren't killed.
Boomer milestones are boring. No one has to hear about my generation's problems.
Wow. Laslo just posted about the same thing, but better.
Laslo asks "why can't everyone go shopping?"
I am not Laslo.
Laslo,
The problem is that while the number of Boomer milestones are finite, the potenial anniversaries are not. Until all the Boomers are dead, each 40 year commemotation will be followed by a 45 year, followed by a 50 year rinse repeat. Since I am a Boomer myself, by definition I will never see the end of Boomer milestones.
Fear does not justify a break down in discipline.
He lectured from his armchair...
A list of riots by decade. The number of riots in the 1960 decade, most notably 1967, is particularly significant in number. Tragic as the Kent State shootings were, I think at some point the general public becomes inured and hardened to constant rioting.
List of incidents of civil unrest in the United States
I'm sure Crosby, Stills and Nash will milk the dry teats of this anniversary at their next show, Then continue to ride into the gaping maw that is their utter irrelevance.
Perfect, Laslo.
gerry said...
I'm sure Crosby, Stills and Nash will milk the dry teats of this anniversary at their next show, Then continue to ride into the gaping maw that is their utter irrelevance.
Perfect, Laslo.
I think you underestimate the power of song, and the universal relevance of much of their protest music. It is likely to be very relevant in the near future, except it won't be the left protesting or getting shot. Or maybe them too.
@Drill SGT, apparently my mistake. I'm used to the notion that sergeants are armed with the same long rifles carried by their troops.
One thing we do know now that we didn't then - the media's propensity to lie and create a false narrative that advances a left-wing agenda.
I do not trust the mainstream historical account of what happened.
only two of them were participating in the peace protest. The other two were passersby - and one of them was in ROTC
I'm sure they were on their way to grandma's and just stopped to get some Skittles and Tea.
"What appalls is how many Americans then--and probably now--thought they deserved to be shot."
In your imagination, fool.
"I was far too young to understand Nixon's appeal to the "silent majority" then. That campaign is likely to recur. Real hedonists and real anarchists and socialists are on the rise."
In the course on "American History since 1877" at The U of Arizona, the student study guide tells them that "The Silent Majority" was made up of white Americans who refused to accept the Civil Rights Act of 1964. No mention of Nixon or Vietnam.
The Socialists and racists run US colleges. That was in my daughter's study guide for the final exam.
When I was in Somalia, and the warlords had their men surrounding us; pouring fire on our sorry asses, I remember saying to my buddy Jorgeson, "Mongo, I think these fuckers have lost their discipline." "I think you're right Pepé, one of those fuckers just blew off my little finger."
There was a Thump, Thump noise and Mongo said "I think the Army is coming to rescue us Pepé." But I wasn't so sure. "That's what's kinda scaring me right now Mongo!"
"Sho-Nuff is all he said..."
Gerry, how does a disturbance at the bar on Friday night lead to defensive shooting people mid day on Monday?
There was anger roiling amongst the students. Their demonstrations were not peaceful the nigh before, and they were not peaceful the next day when the shooting occurred. There was outside agitation aggravating it all, which is why I said the situation was sad and dangerous.
No one deserved to die, but there were those who wanted people to die to spark more than a protest against a war.
The next day, the disturbances began at the University of Iowa, which I attended at the time. We had plenty of rock-throwing, and tear gas in return. Lots of store windows smashed. But we had the advantage of good political leadership, who did not overreact and call out soldiers. The governor sent the state troopers, a highly professional force, and they worked with local law enforcement to contain and avoid escalating the situation. So yes, there was rioting and lawbreaking, and perhaps someone (then or now) could justify killing me or my fellow rioters.
But luckily, we didn't have poorly trained or poorly led young soldiers pointing guns at students. The deaths at Kent State were not necessary. The bystanders who were killed did not have it coming.
only two of them were participating in the peace protest. The other two were passersby - and one of them was in ROTC.
I'm sure they were on their way to grandma's and just stopped to get some Skittles and Tea.
Sandra Scheuer was on her way to class. William Schroeder paused to watch what was happening.
I have no problem believing that's what happened, even though I wasn't there - I wasn't around to witness the Holocaust or the Bataan Death March, either.
Michael K said...
"What appalls is how many Americans then--and probably now--thought they deserved to be shot."
In your imagination, fool.
Michael
Respectfully, I believe you are mistaken. I remember many people back then who hated those dirty stinkin hippie scum who had the nerve to demonstrate against their betters, their elders, the war, etc etc. There were plenty of people who were not unhappy about the shooting. Do not mistake this for me thinking it was ok. I was a dirty stinkin hippie type myself long ago.
@Drill Sgt. et al.
As I remember it, it was not so much a case of the officers' losing control of the men, as of an out of control state governor and National Guard commander running around confusing and exciting the troops that led to the breakdown in discipline and indiscriminate shooting.
"A list of riots by decade. The number of riots in the 1960 decade, most notably 1967, is particularly significant in number. Tragic as the Kent State shootings were, I think at some point the general public becomes inured and hardened to constant rioting."
I'd add that by 1970, Nixon was beginning the drawdown of U.S. troops in Vietnam. The decreasing chances of getting drafted (and dropping number of bodybags coming home) did more to end the campus demostrations than anything. People were still mostly against our being in the war, but were on their way to having the issue become far less important to them.
"...the universal relevance of much of their protest music. It is likely to be very relevant in the near future..."
When I hear CSNY Muzak'ed into the grocery store where I am shopping I DO see Baby Boomers experiencing faint stirrings of Protest as they stick it to the Man by buying Organic.
A lot of these men are wearing shorts, Althouse.
I am Laslo.
It wasn't the 19 year olds who did the shooting that should have been tried for murder, but their State governor and the commanding general.
"Soldiers are cutting us down.
Should have been done long ago."
I visited the Kent State Campus once, and you can find markers that commemorate where particular victims fell. One that I basically stumbled across was in a parking lot. Whether it was a parking lot in 1970, I dunno.
In 1970 I was in the 7th grade, and not particularly a fan of the anti-war movement. But that incident was a real shock to my system. The next day in school I recall climbing a staircase and hearing a friend below ask me what I thought. After I replied that it was very disturbing and that the National Guardsmen were out of control, he said he felt they deserved it, and suggested that there were reports of student protestors allegedly firing on the Guardsmen. That was completely dispelled by the Scranton Commission Report. I was dumbfounded by his interpretation. But in those days you had a daily paper and the evening broadcast news.
Hey, it was Crosby et al who were claiming that it "should have been done."
I don't agree with them, BTW.
"They had cleared the protesters from the Commons area, and many students had left, but some stayed and were still angrily confronting the soldiers, some throwing rocks and tear gas canisters. About ten minutes later, the guardsmen began to retrace their steps back up the hill toward the Commons area. Some of the students on the Taylor Hall veranda began to move slowly toward the soldiers as they passed over the top of the hill and headed back down into the Commons.
At 12:24 pm,[1] according to eyewitnesses, a Sgt. Myron Pryor turned and began firing at the students with his .45 pistol.[26] A number of guardsmen nearest the students also turned and fired their rifles at the students. In all, 29 of the 77 guardsmen claimed to have fired their weapons, using a final total of 67 rounds of ammunition. The shooting was determined to have lasted only 13 seconds, although John Kifner reported in the New York Times that "it appeared to go on, as a solid volley, for perhaps a full minute or a little longer."[27] The question of why the shots were fired remains widely debated."
So ... the remaining hard core of people who wouldn't disperse - and were still throwing rocks - got shot up by people in a panic who'd been under attack all day and many of them injured.
The amazing thing is that only four people got killed - but it's not amazing that shots eventually got fired, after an all day rock-throwing festival against the Guard, who aren't riot cops.
Deserved it?
Well, probably the two actual rioters didn't even deserve to die (the two innocent bystanders definitionally didn't deserve anything at all) - but one can not say that they didn't have some vague idea of the risks of throwing rocks and gas canisters at soldiers all day, can one?
Of course, somehow the hippies never ask if the Guard deserved to have rocks thrown at them all day...
"there were those who wanted people to die to spark more than a protest against a war."
That has always been a policy of the left. Remember, "You can't make an omelet without..."
"Michael
Respectfully, I believe you are mistaken. I remember many people back then who hated those dirty stinkin hippie scum who had the nerve to demonstrate against their betters, their elders, the war, etc etc"
Oh, I don't disagree about that. It is just that they did not wish them shot or dead.
I was a surgery resident in 1970 and had little interest in the anti-war protests. I was dealing with stuff not that dissimilar to Baltimore last week.
We did have a drug culture group of medical students around then and some never finished. We had a group of second year students on LSD in 1966. It was a crazy time.
The circumstances present at that time indicate that 74 men surrounded by several hundred hostile rioters were forced to retreat back up the hill toward Taylor Hall under a constant barrage of rocks and other flying objects, accompanied by a constant flow of obscenities and chants such as 'Kill, Kill, Kill.'
Sounds an awful lot like what happened at the "Boston Massacre".
I'd add that by 1970, Nixon was beginning the drawdown of U.S. troops in Vietnam. The decreasing chances of getting drafted (and dropping number of bodybags coming home) did more to end the campus demostrations than anything. People were still mostly against our being in the war, but were on their way to having the issue become far less important to them.
The impetus for Kent State and other campus riots was Nixon announcing incursion of troops into Cambodia.
The people who agitated to keep America out of Cambodia have the blood of somewhere between 1 and 3 million human beings on their hands.
"The impetus for Kent State and other campus riots was Nixon announcing incursion of troops into Cambodia."
And that was the last ground escalation of the war with U.S. troops--after that, we did a great deal of bombing and directed ground actions using more ARVNs, but that year we were beginning to reduce our troop numbers in Vietnam. Anti-war protests continued after Kent State, but were becoming fewer as our troop numbers dropped. By the '72 election, the charge that Nixon hadn't ended the war was a lot less potent than it might have been if we still had half a million men there (as well as dozens of casualties each week).
God forbid that anyone should find themselves in a small group outnumbered and surrounded by a howling mob throwing bricks and rocks at you and shouting for your death. It's a terrifying experience. The fight-or-flight instinct explodes within you. Except if you are surrounded you can't flee. So you fight. It's a very natural reaction. Military discipline instilled by rigorous training and enforced by competent officers is the only way to maintain control. But once you surrounded by the howling mob control can easily break down. The guardsmen must have felt like the 7th Cavalry troopers at the Little Bighorn.
And who's to say they weren't correct in assessing the situation as they did? What would have happened if they had stood by passively as the crown closed in on them, hurling bricks and stones all the while. Would hand-to-hand fighting have ensued? Would guardsmen have been killed?
Imagine the impact on American history if even one guardsmen had been killed by the mob. Just imagine.
I can: many counterculture warriors would have said, "those babykillers deserved it. Let's get more. This is how revolutions start."
"The people who agitated to keep America out of Cambodia have the blood of somewhere between 1 and 3 million human beings on their hands."
How is that a fair statement? Do we have blood on our hands in the case of every mass killing anywhere in the globe, regardless of whether we had anything to do with it?
And if it's the argument that "the U.S. could have prevented this if we kept troops in Cambodia" then by that token don't we have blood on our hands for all the killings in the Congo, Rwanda, Sudan, etc.?
At a certain point the U.S. should be limiting its involvement in foreign affairs to those in which we have a clear interest.
And as far as memories go--I was a college student at the time--I remember many, many people angrily asserting that the soldiers deserved to be killed, even before they opened fire. That the mob should have killed them. That a few soldiers' death would have been good for the "revolution."
The hard-core radicals (Weather Underground, unaffiliated campus radicals, Bill Ayers and his vile ilk) were delighted by the events at Kent State. They couldn't have had a better outcome if they had scripted and organized the actions of the National Guard.
I guess one of the ironies was that kids with low draft numbers who joined the Guard to avoid Vietnam had rocks thrown at them by kids with low draft numbers that had the means to go to college to avoid Vietnam.
Listening to you old people argue about Kent State reminds me of listening to 90 year old uncles ranting about "that bastard DeGaule."
Much less remembered is that a few weeks later, at the historically black Jackson State College, city and state police opened fire on anti-war demonstrators, killing 2. Since they were African-American, the news and photos did not have the same dramatic impact.
"Is dissent a crime?"
No. But riot, mayhem, random assaults, vandalism and arson ARE crimes. And if a mob, already known to have done the above, is advancing on troops while shouting threats and throwing objects, well, I can't blame the guardsmen for shooting.
The draft lottery changed the way people thought.
Before the lottery, you were never free of the draft until you became an old man.
After the lottery, if you got a big number (say 200 or more), you were golden. You would never get drafted unless the Russians attacked NATO.
People with big numbers didn't even have to go to school.
People with big numbers could start a career and people would hire them.
Before the lottery, and afterwards with people with low lottery numbers, they were basically unable to find a job, because employers didn't want to waste expensive training on a dead man.
So the lottery kept a lot of young people from becoming Canadians or Mexicans.
You couldn't get in to the National Guard, Reserves, or Coast Guard, unless you knew someone who knew someone.
The only other option to avoid the draft was to join the Air Force. But they always raised their standards to regulate themselves.
The guys in the Air Force were usually referred to as draftees-in-uniform. If you could last two years, they would give you an administrative "general" discharge for smoking dope, and then the VA would upgrade that to "honorable" in 6-months. It was a real racket.
"The only other option to avoid the draft was to join the Air Force. But they always raised their standards to regulate themselves."
My dad joined the Navy ('67 to '69) to avoid getting drafted. He'd already had a job, but wouldn't have been able to get a work-related deferment so figured he'd be better off on a boat than in the jungles. His boat happened to go to the Gulf of Tonkin, but it was still a safer bet.
Tim,
Listening to you young people (Gen Xers, Millennials, etc.) talk about ANYTHING is like hearing Dopey the Dwarf babbling with a mouthful of pablum.
I say that with love.
Well, at least she wasn't aborted. Her life was not liquidated in order to pursue secular profits of wealth, pleasure, and leisure. Still, we should strive to control and reduce collateral injury while enforcing the state-established religion. The security forces are not the abortion industry, and cannot afford, politically or morally, even accidentally, to match the abortion industry's nearly 100% slaughter rate.
I remember it well. National Guard on State St.. I still have a spent tear gas canister on my desk. This incident began to move significant numbers of "Townies" into the student/anti-war camp. The Sterling Hall bombing later in August finished the job.
Coupe,
You got that one exactly right. Nothing deflated draft age protest like instituting the draft lottery. Classic divide and conquer.
Those of us with body bingo numbers 50 or less (45 for yours truly) called ourselves the Canadian Club.
@CWJ
My number was 24. I was debating whether to join the Canadian Club when we had "Peace with Honor." No one was happier than I (me?).
American soldiers were firing on other Americans on a college campus. Just a few years before American soldiers had been firing on other Americans in the streets of Detroit and elsewhere. Whether pro war or anti war most people found this very distressing. The fact that the Kent State students were white added to the shock. We don't like to see it that way but it was certainly true.
Two weeks later when two were killed at Jackson State, it was no longer soldiers firing. The National Guard at Jackson State had been issued no ammunition. In a 30 second fullisade, police fired more than 140 times, mostly at the windows of a dormitory which they claimed was the source of sniper fire. The FBI later found no evidence of a actual sniper.
The whole country was on edge. Just what had happened at each place was a subject of debate, but there was, as I recall, very little sentiment that the victims deserved it. Mostly the reaction was bewilderment and sorrow.
Nixon got blamed. His policies had helped to reduce American deaths from nearly 17,000 in 1968, Johnson's last year, to slightly more that 6000 in 1970 and about 2000 in 1971. Nixon got little credit for this, and still does not.
Scott, how did the bombing move people into the anti-war camp?
"Nixon got blamed. His policies had helped to reduce American deaths from nearly 17,000 in 1968, Johnson's last year, to slightly more that 6000 in 1970 and about 2000 in 1971. Nixon got little credit for this, and still does not."
Nixon was in a tough spot--his choices on Vietnam were to either abandon a client state to an anti-democratic aggressor or continue a war that no one thought was winnable anymore and hope to pull some sort of victory out of it. Also, he'd run as a uniter (sound familiar?) and whether it was his fault or not, our country was incredibly divided through his term.
Cook never met an anti-American he didn't like.
garage mahal said...
Damn right they deserved to be shot. So screw you, commie.
Was wondering why this post was taking so long.
5/4/15, 10:53 AM
Wonder what's taking so long for you to condemn the ISIS attack on Garland, TX.
Scott, how did the bombing move people into the anti-war camp?
5/4/15, 3:17 PM
Exhaustion on both sides of the issue. The stark reality of where that war had brought us created a feeling of just wanting the damn thing over. While there was justifiable anger over the loss of a life and the destruction of property as a result of the bombing, within a few short weeks after, the air came out of both sides of the argument. The movement on campus went relatively quiet over the next year or so. My most striking memory is of a final protest march in May of '72 when over 10,000 marched from the campus to the Capital. Over half were older, non-student residents. The political makeup of the town was much different (Conservative) then.
"Wonder what's taking so long for you to condemn the ISIS attack on Garland, TX."
Oh? A couple of unaffiliated loser wackjobs decide to get themselves killed while attacking an art exhibit are now ISIS?
By that metric, any successful bank robber must be Doctor Doom, and any gang-banger the herald of Galactus.
Robert Cook:
You are fantasizing. I lived in the deep conservative south at the time and everyone, every one, was sickened by the Kent State shooting.
You are full of shit.
"Oh? A couple of unaffiliated loser wackjobs decide to get themselves killed while attacking an art exhibit are now ISIS?
By that metric, any successful bank robber must be Doctor Doom, and any gang-banger the herald of Galactus."
The HuffPo delusion. Islam is full of "unaffiliated loser whack jobs." It's what they are.
You are pretty amusing though. Keep it up.
"The people who agitated to keep America out of Cambodia have the blood of somewhere between 1 and 3 million human beings on their hands."
No, that blood is on the hands of those in Washington who initiated our participation in Vietnam and surrounding countries, destabilizing the entire region...as we're doing now in the middle east.
The distance between the Boomers / Kent State and now is about the same as between the Boomers / Kent State and World War One.
Were all the adults STILL incessantly talking about WW1 when you were in the Sixties, Boomers?
Were you still having that World War 1 music played non-stop on half the stations as 'Classic' pop?
Was the WW1 equivalent of CSN still touring to crowds?
The People of the Sixties Fucked Up. You blew it. And now everyone has to listen as you navel-gaze over wistful thoughts of what-if.
People of the Seventies, come back: most is forgiven.
I am Laslo.
"The People of the Sixties Fucked Up. You blew it. And now everyone has to listen as you navel-gaze over wistful thoughts of what-if."
Your parents gave you Nixon. You have given us BOTH Clintons, and a damned Global Messiah Al Gore.
I have respect for your parents.
I am Laslo.
As a little kid all I remember from this time period is adults being upset at the amount of coverage the protesters were getting.
It seemed like every time 4 Vietnam protestors got together and marched up main street, it was on the local news.
Yeah, a too bad 4 people died at kent state, IRC 5,000 US servicemen died in Vietnam in 1970 & the number of Vietnamese deaths in1970 must have been at least 10 times that.
"Were all the adults STILL incessantly talking about WW1 when you were in the Sixties, Boomers?"
Yes, but people are STILL bringing up Hitler and Nazis like it happened yesterday, instead of 70 years ago.
Oh? A couple of unaffiliated loser wackjobs decide to get themselves killed while attacking an art exhibit are now ISIS?
"One suspect, identified as Elton Simpson by a federal law enforcement source, linked himself to ISIS in a tweet posted just before the attack."
Is there any instance at all where you might take the side of Americans?
"Nixon was in a tough spot--his choices on Vietnam were to either abandon a client state to an anti-democratic aggressor or continue a war that no one thought was winnable anymore and hope to pull some sort of victory out of it."
You're confused; in secret, the leaders in Washington always knew the war was unwinnable. Also, we have never had any particular interest in supporting democratic regimes; we support regimes who will play ball with us and abide by our wishes.
"'One suspect, identified as Elton Simpson by a federal law enforcement source, linked himself to ISIS in a tweet posted just before the attack.
"Is there any instance at all where you might take the side of Americans?"
Ahem...I could link myself to the Trilateral Commission in a tweet--if I were on Twitter--and stand in front of the Supreme Court in a dirty diaper shouting gibberish. That doesn't mean the Trilateral commission recognizes me or that they are sending agents out in dirty diapers to shout gibberish in public places.
Also...I am on the side of Americans...that's why I deplore the atrocious, un-American and grossly criminal behavior of our non-representative representatives in Washington.
I may expand upon this in another comment in another thread, but posting my body bingo divide and conquer comment cemented my thinking on the politics of implementing Obama care. Another divide and conquer scheme.
Those already in the individual market had a front row seat to the full costs in lost coverage and premium increases of Obama care. Those already covered by their employer, on Medicare/aid, or entering the market for the first time saw either muted effects, no effects, or had no point of reference.
That left those screaming bloody murder winkled down to a manageable 4 to 10 million. And indeed they could and did count those that they threw on to the exchanges as a success!!!
Cook's brain was fried from the 60s protests. He can't be arsed.
"Yeah, a too bad 4 people died at kent state, IRC 5,000 US servicemen died in Vietnam in 1970 & the number of Vietnamese deaths in1970 must have been at least 10 times that."
Which is what the protests were all about. The deaths of US servicemen and Vietnamese in Vietnam are directly related to Washington's decision to carry on a prolonged war there.
"Cook's brain was fried from the 60s protests. He can't be arsed."
Nope. I was too young. Wasn't a protester, and never a user of substances that would "fry" my brain.
"'Were all the adults STILL incessantly talking about WW1 when you were in the Sixties, Boomers?'
"Yes, but people are STILL bringing up Hitler and Nazis like it happened yesterday, instead of 70 years ago."
Given that the twin cataclysms of WWI and WW2 ineradicably warped the shape of the 20th century and are the parents of our current global geopolitical clusterfuck, there's good reason to keep talking about them. One shudders to wonder what WW3 will do to top its predecessors.
The communists who believed they were doing what needed to be done for "social justice" were responsible for Cambodia, whatever shallow 'thinkers' like Robert Cook think.
Wasn't a protester, and never a user of substances that would "fry" my brain.
Never used pot, which has been shown to lower IQ?
Given that the twin cataclysms of WWI and WW2 ineradicably warped the shape of the 20th century and are the parents of our current global geopolitical clusterfuck
Both wars started by nations that placed the state first. First you had the various European states fighting over empire, then you had the twin collectivist ideologies of Communism and Fascism creating massive devastation.
But Robert wants to bring them back, only this time "without the bad stuff." After all, we can't throw out the Soviet baby with Stalin's bathwater!
never a user of substances that would "fry" my brain.
Can I therefore assume you were dropped on your head as an infant?
@Brando, I'd like to think that Pol Pot couldn't have performed his genocide if American troops were present. We could have had troops in there, they were right on the border, but we didn't send them in.
There never was much chance that we'd have troops anywhere in Africa. In Rwanda they relied on UN Peacekeepers. The Rwandan Tutsis and the Bosnians in Srebrenica could tell you about UN Peacekeepers, except they can't because they're dead.
Can you imagine the folly of using Dutch troops as UN Peacekeepers, as happened in Srebrenica? The entire Dutch army couldn't fight its way out of a New Orleans brothel without a platoon of US Marines for support. In Rwanda their next door neighbors the Belgians proved that their "Peacekeepers" weren't a whole lot better.
There was a show on PBS (I know libtard).
They interviewed a bunch of people on the streets who said they should of shot more of them.
The country overwhelmingly loved Nixon and hated the college kids.
The only state to vote against Nixon was The People's Republic.
tits.
I think it typical of the time (and now, perhaps, as well) that the media reports ignored the reality on the ground and instead, pushed the narrative of what played. The riots began on Friday night, and over four days, included the ROTC building being burned to the ground, fire hoses being slashed and carried away (where have we seen that recently?) and police officers being shot at but because no one was actually hit by gunfire, nothing about this being said in the media. The cops were outnumbered, poorly equipped and led, and in effect, ran around in circles for three days. Tear gas was repeatedly used, all while the media showed demonstrators peacably marching and waving signs. Also ignored were the constant barrage of rocks, bottles and bricks. (Remember that the NG didn't have the current de rigueur shield, vest, face guard, gloves, shin guard, etc. They had a steel pot.) The day of the shooting, the NG claimed that someone else fired the first shot, claims which were rejected out of hand and which ignored the numerous gunshots reported all weekend by the police but which never hit a single media account. Certainly, the NG had no business trying to contain the situation as it did, and was essentially marched into catastrophe, and was placed in a situation for which it was unprepared by training or disposition.
By the time of the shooting, 4 days in, some segment of the crowd was no longer college students but some number of outside persons, looking for trouble or fun. Again, sound familiar?
They were interviewing all these ladies on the street during that time and I all I could think of was how awful and huge their hair was.
Not the students as much but the other women.
One time when the students were protesting in DC Nixon called his chaffeur at 5:00 in the morning and asked him to drive him to where they were so he could chat with them.
The staff got into the White House at 5:00 am and no one knew where he was-which is kind of cool.
And who's to say they weren't correct in assessing the situation as they did?
Umm, The President's [that would be your President Nixon] Commission on Campus Unrest, that's who.
It's disgusting how so many of you are willing to distort facts and conclusions that have been established for nearly 45 years to justify your mistaken, and frankly fascist view, that the Guardsmen were justified in using deadly force.
By the time of the shooting, 4 days in, some segment of the crowd was no longer college students but some number of outside persons, looking for trouble or fun. Again, sound familiar?
What segment? Because if it was a significant segment it is awful strange that all thirteen casualties were students.
"Can I therefore assume you were dropped on your head as an infant?"
No.
You can assume that Swift's quote --"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."--applies here...everything being relative, of course. Modesty requires that I admit that I am not a genius, but then, you are much less, in kind, than a dunce.
"Never used pot, which has been shown to lower IQ?"
I question the validity of the second half of your question, but no, I've never used pot. Tried it a couple of times, years after high school and just to see what all the hubbub was about. The smoke burned my throat, and made me cough uncontrollably. A couple of times like that--and with no results, besides--I saw no reason to belabor the effort.
I can be a social drinker, but I've never really even been a user of alcohol.
"But Robert wants to bring them back, only this time 'without the bad stuff.'"
Talk about someone who seems to be on some sort of brain-frying substance...you do have vivid delusions, bra!
"Your parents gave you Nixon. You have given us BOTH Clintons, and a damned Global Messiah Al Gore.
I have respect for your parents."
No Boomer has stepped forward to claim this, or excuse it.
The Boomers have resided over the destruction of Education, both Grade School and University.
Was there not enough people back then to stop this in its tracks?
Thank you for the Aftermath.
I am Laslo.
I was accepted to attend Kent State in 1969 and might have wound up in that mess. Instead, I chose the Air Force Academy and was able to say, "what stupid, undisciplined idiots" and been equally right if referring to either the guardsmen or the demonstrators.
Robert Cook wrote:
"You're confused; in secret, the leaders in Washington always knew the war was unwinnable. Also, we have never had any particular interest in supporting democratic regimes; we support regimes who will play ball with us and abide by our wishes."
Which leaders were those? The "unwinnable war" idea was an outgrowth of the Marxist concept of the "inevitability victory of the proletariat." The idea being that only the West could lose wars. (They were wrong.)
The war was definitely lost, but it is far from certain that it was unwinnable. Just because you sucked up the idea from the countless opinions of the time doesn't prove anything, except that you probably hadn't studied warfare theory or its practical applications.
And, for what it's worth, the demand for ideological purity in all foreign actions is simply facile bullshit. Only the blindly ignorant (or the enemy) demand that our foreign policy be a suicide pact. As it stands, the world is far more free today than it was 100 years ago in almost every measurable criteria, in large part because of American involvement.
One shudders to wonder what WW3 will do to top its predecessors.
We've already done WW3 (Cold War/proxy wars in Se Asia and beyond). We're on to WW4 now (Radical Islamism vs. The West.)
Keep up, man.
"@Brando, I'd like to think that Pol Pot couldn't have performed his genocide if American troops were present. We could have had troops in there, they were right on the border, but we didn't send them in."
It's true that U.S. troops occupying Cambodia would have prevented Pol Pot's rise--but could you say that was forseeable (that he would have taken power after we left)? But in any case, the argument that we may have been able to prevent something by taking some action doesn't mean that we are responsible for it happening. For example, if I walked the streets today and found someone hungry and gave them food, I could prevent them from starving. If I choose not to do that, that doesn't mean I'm responsible for their starving. If it did, then by implication our responsibilities require us to take all sorts of actions even in cases where we cannot forsee the alternatives.
The war was definitely lost, but it is far from certain that it was unwinnable
The Vietnam War was won in 1973. The newly elected Democratic congress lost the peace when they failed to support South Vietnam when North Vietnam invaded again in 1975.
There is nothing that Dick Nixon did in 1972 that Lyndon Johnson couldn't have done in 1967 (mine Haiphong Harbor, bomb Hanoi flat with B-52s, smash rail lines into China). The war in Vietnam was winnable, just not with McNamara as SecDef or LBJ as President. Likewise, the war in Iraq was winnable, just not with Donald Rumsfeld as SecDef nor with Barack Obama as President.
@Brando, I understand your point. I just don't agree with it.
@Cookie, I'm a mathematician. I'm not only smarter than you are, I'm smarter than you can even comprehend. I'm also more humble than you are, which is pretty rare for me.
At least I can go a week without hearing the word "Vietnam."
And now classic rock isn't all from the 60s.
Baby steps.
"@Cookie, I'm a mathematician. I'm not only smarter than you are, I'm smarter than you can even comprehend. I'm also more humble than you are, which is pretty rare for me."
Wow!
Gahrie said...
The war was definitely lost, but it is far from certain that it was unwinnable
The Vietnam War was won in 1973. The newly elected Democratic congress lost the peace when they failed to support South Vietnam when North Vietnam invaded again in 1975.
The foreign assistance act of 1974 cut aids sp0ending to s.vietnam. Thank You Ted Kennedy.
Oddly enough, the idea that violent protests increased after Kent State, compared to before Kent State, has been challenged.
Some recall Kent State as the end to the violent campus protests.
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