A letter published under a pseudonym that is allegedly from a female Airman. "Kayce Hagen" is critical of the Sexual Assault Response Coordination program.
This reminded me of that story from a couple days ago — in The National Journal — "Why Some Male Members of Congress Won’t Be Alone with Female Staffers/Numerous women who work on the Hill say they've been excluded from solo meetings and evening events, a practice that could be illegal."
Male staffers said they'd also seen some female aides barred from solo meetings with the boss, and that they benefited in some instances from the exclusion of their female colleagues in high-level meetings, at receptions with major Washington powerbrokers, and just in earning a little more face time with their bosses.And to go way back to WWII and the Women's Army Corp — which I did last Sunday as I was thinking about my mother, who was one of the earliest WACs — it reminded me of the 1943 slander campaign:
In 1943 the recruiting momentum stopped and went into reverse as a massive slander campaign on the home front challenged the WACs as sexually immoral. Many soldiers ferociously opposed allowing women in uniform, warning their sisters and friends they would be seen as lesbians or prostitutes. Their lewd humor and snide comments betrayed a fear that if women became soldiers they would no longer serve in a masculine preserve and their masculinity would be devalued.... Critics outside the military included religious fanatics with wild imaginations, reactionaries who wanted to prevent social change, and right-wing critics of Roosevelt's social programs. Other sources were from other women — servicemen's and officer's wives' idle gossip, local women who disliked the newcomers taking over "their town", female civilian employees resenting the competition (for both jobs and men), charity and volunteer organizations who resented the extra attention the WAACs received, and complaints and slander spread by disgruntled or discharged WAACs. All investigations showed the rumors were false, but they had originated with American soldiers, not with enemy agents.
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89 comments:
Women do not belong in the military.
I teach high school, and I am never alone with a female, child or adult.
One of the flight instructors, when I learned to fly in the 50s, was a woman, I'd guess left over from WWII.
The matter didn't come up.
That was before victims having an advantage.
Buddy of mine coaches HS football. He is an assistant coach- does it because he likes it and has a regular fulltime job.
He said he makes sure he is never alone with a player.
Libruls have screwed up everything they touch.
The idea was we were serving to protect mom, flag, apple pie, and the girl next door.
Having the girl next door showing up in the field and using army language kind of takes the shine off it.
"Well , here's another nice mess you've gotten me into "
In the ultimate future cock-block, the government will require men to have body cameras surgically implanted on their bodies hooked up to a wireless penile plethysmograph that will immediately begin uploading video to a government cloud site whenever the man becomes aroused in the slightest.
Not a lot of sympathy in the comments so far. I can't say I disagree.
rh's "victims having an advantage" rings true. I heard horror stories every week when I taught and it is on a lot of people's minds, especially men in close-encounter situations.
Thank you, lawyers and HR people.
Being female, I'm just going to say, "happy feministas? I think we got what you didn't consider. Unintended consequences are a bitch. Er, bastard. Gotta give equal time there.
When I volunteered and then later worked for the Catholic church, we were never to be alone with a child. Two adults in the room at all times. That is a solid practice, for both female and male.
"Women do not belong in the military."
If so, then I should never have been born!
At least the WACs were not those petite Asian women.
I was old enough to remember some of this and the hysterical tone of that Wikipedia article is in line with many Wikipedia articles on political subjects. I'm surprised that "War on Women" wasn't in there. Maybe it was as I did not read all of that slime.
My parents had a cartoon on the party room wall in the basement showing a WAC squatting over a urinal in a mens room with a guy standing at the next one looking astonished. It was mostly humor and the women laughed, too. It was not "right wing critics of Roosevelt" as they were Roosevelt voters as was everyone I knew then.
The music of WWII, which I like, is all about men going away and missing their sweethearts. The fact that some women joined the WACs or the WAVEs or the other organizations like the WAAFs was something late in the war, for the most part, and I cannot recall any anger about it.
Of course, the two adult rule? A complicit husband and wife "team" could shoot that all to hell. I never opined on that.
I have a dark view of human nature.
I can completely understand the male aversion in corporate, or military, America to being alone with a female. In fact, being alone with any "victim" group isn't in anyone's best interest, especially when you are in a position of authority and/or power.
I had heard the WACS recruited
Old maids for the war
But mommy isn't one of those
I've known her all these years
The problem stems from the unreasonable expectation that women cannot handle, nor should they be expected to tolerate, the rougher aspects of male social interaction that is typical in a line unit. The behavior that was seen as somewhat normal amongst groups of rough men has now become criminalized and in the control of female service members.
What is claimed as "equality" is actually an officially enforced deference to female sensibilities when it comes to social interactions within the ranks.
I also read that story about Congressmen not wanting to be alone in any circumstance with female staffers and it sure made sense to me. Why take the risk of a sexual harrassment charge?
I know professors in the US who will not meet alone behind closed doors with a student for the same reason. How about you, Prof. Althouse - when a male student comes to your office to discuss private matters, such as his future career plans, do you shut the door or make sure to leave it open?
Bill Clinton can't be left alone with female staffers. Will that be part of Hillary's platform?
There are good reasons why so many things were in male and female spheres formerly.
It just doesnt, and never will, be possible to override human nature.
Male teams, at work and at war, for instance, are spontaneous, self generating based on primal hunting instincts. Women, with only few rare exceptions, don't belong.
"An Air Force general resigned after making a comment that two officers looked “drunker than 10,000 Indians”, the Air Force Times reported on Monday."
I am a military officer. Your career is over if you are accused of sexual harrassment. Doesn't matter how innocent you are or ridiculous the charges. The system is all about senior leadership appearing they are doing something.
SGT Ted is right. I grew up in the 60s/70s. Older brother made sure I could handle myself. I gave as good as I got. That is probably why I've never expected deference to my female sensibilities, especially if I enter a traditional "man cave". If a guy chooses to open a door for me, though, it is much appreciated.
Commanding troops on the tip of the spear is tough anytime. Adding women to the mix complicates all the people decisions.
Add to that, there aren't enough women who are both interested and able to meet the demands in the combat arms. (Ground combat).
It's really a human rights versus force effectiveness decision.
Do you see the Army as a social engineering Lab or as an organization that can't afford to be less than its best when metal meets meat?
PS: I met my wife when we were both Army Captains.
"Your career is over if you are accused of sexual harassment."
It goes well beyond that. A female Lieutenant General was forced out because she doubted the claims of a women officer against a male officer for harassment when the witnesses, two other officers (one male and one female) disputed her story. That female general was a distinguished former astronaut and is now retired.
At work I needed to have a meeting with a young woman with great breasts who I suspected had feelings for me. Realizing that this could be potentially problematic I invited the woman from HR to join the meeting as a witness.
The trouble began when they both began sucking my cock.
"This isn't professional" I said. But my words meant nothing to them: they just kept taking turns at sucking my cock.
One employed a feathery style, while the other was more forceful, yet the fact remained: the two of them were sucking my cock against my will.
While they were taking turns sucking my cock my hand accidently slid under the blouse of the young woman with great breasts and ended up with my fingertips on her erect nipple.
"You can't do that," the HR woman said; "that could be construed as harassment." Then she resumed sucking my cock.
I was just a cock to them; my exemplary work skills meant nothing.
I live with the Shame.
I am Laslo.
SGT Ted said...
The problem stems from the unreasonable expectation that women cannot handle, nor should they be expected to tolerate, the rougher aspects of male social interaction that is typical in a line unit.
They can't handle the physical part.
"(e) Adopting a male standard of fitness at West Point would mean 70 percent of the women he studied would be separated as failures at the end of their junior year, only three percent would be eligible for the Recondo badge, and not one would receive the Army Physical Fitness badge….”
You libs and SJW's started it. These are the results.
"The system is all about senior leadership appearing they are doing something."
Unfortunately, senior leadership will very quickly be forcibly retired if they don't "do something."
"That I as a victim, somehow I control their fate. With one sentence, I can destroy the rest of their lives"
This is what equality looks like.
If she's a real person, she should stop bitching.
Too many vested interests at stake.
Since a core belief of the prosecution frenzy is that sexual assault allegations are nearly always true, a suspicious and protective attitude is inevitable.
Most of the pressure for women in combat roles is coming from officers who want the combat arm credential for promotion. The same goes for the women fighter pilots who were pushed through in spite of doubts by the instructors.
I think some of the subsequent women pilots are OK but there are still doubts about Martha McSally, for example, and this is most likely the consequences of the early treatment. Again, the PC crap negatively impacts women later who are qualified.
If so, then I should never have been born!
I'm thinking your mother didn't ovulate that month because she was in the army.
Women can make excellent pilots (better than men) in low performance aircraft and helos.
There are a number of physical issues that make excelling in fighters an issue. Among them weak necks, short forearms, and body size. Not that there cant be excellent female fighter pilots, but the pool is a lot smaller.
"Your career is over if you are accused of sexual harassment."
I read the National Journal article and the only reason given for male Congress Critters wanting to avoid solo meetings with female staff was the appearance of improprieties. No mention of protecting themselves from charges of harassment. I can't help but think that the author of that piece is being willfully ignorant.
"which I did last Sunday as I was thinking about my mother, who was one of the earliest WACs"
Father says, "Your mother's right
She's really up on things
Before we married, Mommy served
In the WACS in the Philippines"
Now, I had heard the WACS recruited
Old maids for the war
But mommy isn't one of those
I've known her all these years
Mommy's alright
Daddy alright
They just seem a little weird
Surrender,
Surrender,
But don't give your self away.
I don't see why anyone objects to a male dominated professions. I don't know why anyone thinks it's not important if masculinity is devalued.
I want my Marines to feel very masculine. If they see girls among them, the will tend to not feel as masculine. They are doing something that girls can do, not something that only men do. Why is this complicated. I rely on peer pressure and this self-image of masculinity to get the most out of them.
My sources say the report of women operating in the experimental Marine units is devastating. So the SecNav has decreed that women wear male dress uniforms. I guess that will fix it.
If so, then I should never have been born!
WACs in WAC barracks and division offices is one thing.
In your own barracks and in the field quite something else.
The Drill Sgt,
"Women can make excellent pilots (better than men) in low performance aircraft and helos."
During my instructor tour, I had three female students. One was above-average, one average, and one below average. (So overall - average!!) The above average one went to the squadron that shared a hangar with us, and I subsequently worked with her occasionally on some administrative issues, and it appeared that she was a very capable officer.
The "below average" female student cried when I gave her a "down" (failure) on one of her flights. (That didn't happen on the three occasions when I gave a "down" to male students.)
FWIW - small sample size.
That women make better pilots than men is a myth that has no basis in reality.
"My sources say the report of women operating in the experimental Marine units is devastating. "
Yes the Platoon Officer Course showed that.
I examine applicants to all branches. The Coast Guard is the toughest. Bowe Bergdahl was kicked out of basic training by the Coast Guard and then accepted by the Army, a disastrous decision.
A few months ago I had to reverse the decision of a female doctor to recommend a female applicant to the Army when the girl had been sent home from Marine Corps basic for mentioning suicide to her DI.
The Marine Corps also has a policy, I am told, in which the recruiter does not get credit until the recruit completes basic training successfully.
"I am an American Airman in the most powerful Air Force in the world . . . ”
Oh, she was talking about the Air Force. They're almost a military.
"That women make better pilots than men is a myth that has no basis in reality."
I was surprised some years ago to learn that women do not make good surgeons. I assumed better small muscle skills and smaller hands would help. It may have changed since then and some of my students have gone into surgery but, in the early days, I was shocked by some of what I saw. Maybe the early enthusiasts are less skilled than later members.
Obviously, this is also subject to small sample size.
Feminists wanted an "open door" policy. They got an "open door" policy. Be careful what you ask for.
Women in his sort of occupations will show a Larry Summers distribution.
The first thing young men and women think about when they meet is the possibility of making babies.
This is generally good for survival of the species, but vey bad in a combat military unit.
Oh, she was talking about the Air Force. They're almost a military.
Give the air force a break. They don't qualify for the Marines because they know both of their parents and can spell their name correctly more than twice out of five tries.
The WACS and WAVES (and nurses) were great in WWII, because they were actually fulfilling a necessary mission.
In contrast, the modern day feminist putsch has exactly one mission - to force us to pretend that no differences between men and women exist.
Of course, when we had to storm the beaches of Normany in 1944, I don't recall feminists (or WACS, for that matter) demanding "equal participation" on the landing crafts.
"Give the air force a break. They don't qualify for the Marines because they know both of their parents and can spell their name correctly more than twice out of five tries."
Exactly.
:)
The box lunches you get at a USAF base when refueling on a cross-country flight are WAY better than anything you'll get at a USMC/USN base.
Skyler and exhelodvr
I said "can make", not "are always better"
I'll point out the classic slur against Male Marines has some truth to it in opposition to female combat marines :)
MARINE: Muscles Are Required, Intelligence Not Essential
Skyler, what is the score in the volunteers female candidates for Marine Infantry Officer Basic?
0 for 28, with only 3-4 making it past day 1?
Drill Sgt,
"I said "can make", not "are always better"
I agree with you - sorry if that wasn't clear from my post.
PS:
To be a successful light grunt takes superb fitness. Near max on the male scoring system.
understand that the PT test doesn't measure success, just relative physical fitness. e.g are you in shape for your gender (the real genders)
Assuming that the Army has norm'd scores properly, one should note that in all events the Female Max score is about the male minimum, when to be an infantryman, you need nearly a max male score.
e.g. The best female types are going to end up at the low end of the squad when it comes to carrying the gear for 20 miles.
not a receipe for acceptance...
When I taught university students I never had closed-door meetings with them without another faculty member present, a female one if possible, and the other male faculty did the same.
That was at the recommendation of our department chair--a woman--who routinely met in closed-door meetings alone with students.
(One female faculty member did not have closed door meetings because she had once been threatened physically by a male student.)
I think the biggest advantage of female pilots is the lack of testosterone.
Old, pilots, bold pilots, etc.
just google "apache helo between trees accident"
I have a foreign policy think tank client that brings in multiple groups of interns in the course of the academic year. They send the interns down to the Hill all the time for briefings & hearings.
You know what the female interns (no slouches themselves in either the looks or the brains departments) call the Hill? "Dreamland for the Boys" -- because there so many gorgeous women there.
Of course, these women who work so hard at their looks would never, ever dream of using their physical attributes in the work place. That would just be wrong. I mean, everyone knows that no matter how ambitious & driven women are, they're always moral & above board. They would never ever try to hasten their ascent up the power ladder by combining business with pleasure by screwing a powerful man. That just never happens.
Why everyone knows that the only people who ever do immoral things in the service of their overweening ambitions are men. /sarc
WWII nurses faced the same problem of reputation.
"I think the biggest advantage of female pilots is the lack of testosterone. "
You are making an assumption here. :)
Skyler said...
I don't see why anyone objects to a male dominated professions. I don't know why anyone thinks it's not important if masculinity is devalued.
I want my Marines to feel very masculine. If they see girls among them, the will tend to not feel as masculine. They are doing something that girls can do, not something that only men do. Why is this complicated. I rely on peer pressure and this self-image of masculinity to get the most out of them.
The Israelis used women in combat back in 1948. The results were not good - many men died trying to protect the women. Women still serve in the Israeli armed forces, just not in combat roles. I saw an interesting news segment some years ago about how some of the women serve as weapons instructors. They get a lot of practice with the weapons, so they're quite good. A young man's ego hates it when a woman is better at him at something normally considered masculine, so it serves to motivate the men to try harder. Apparently, it works. The Israelis can't afford a lot of the politically correct bullshit that goes on in the US military.
I served in the military for 13 years. My brother retired from the Navy. Both of my stepsons have served, one of them is career Navy. With this PC bullshit going on, I wouldn't encourage any of my 3 grandsons to serve in the US military. I probably wouldn't encourage my granddaughter to, either. When the mission of the military changes from winning wars and defending the country to making the US safe for political correctness, being in uniform isn't worth the risk.
Military brigs are full of men who don't understand the power of women.
"Military brigs are full of men who don't understand the power of women."
My understanding is that brigs and stockades are mostly a thing of the past. When a military member commits a crime that is not a civil crime; something like desertion, they are just discharged.
I saw a guy a week ago who got a "other than honorable discharge" and is now trying to get into the military again. It took some research to find out why he was discharged (discharge codes are acronyms) but it was a behavior issue. He has no chance to get in again.
My understanding is that brigs and stockades are mostly a thing of the past.
You are probably right, I've been out for 20 years.
Even in my day, we had to take all the Airmen to Lawton, Oklahoma, as they had the Army prison there.
All the Airmen would serve their sentence there, as the Air Force usually had only one drunk tank and holding cell.
I remember the drunk tank, as it was just an shipping container with a hole in the floor, and they used a hose to clean it out after each night.
Doesn't affirmative action work the same way?
I don't mean exactly but it imposes a taint whether deserved or not. Their presumed victim-hood trumps consideration of their abilities.
People work through it all the time but if you change jobs its back to square one.
Some Male Members of Congress Won’t Be Alone with Female Staffers/Numerous women who work on the Hill say they've been excluded from solo meetings and evening events,
This is just common sense. And, never close an office door.
Lonetown:
Affirmative action should have been (was supposed to be?) an ex post facto review to identify and resolve latent class prejudice. Instead, it mutated into a policy that recycled the class-based diversity regimes that preceded it.
The Kurdish persmerga use women in combat (obviously interpret the Koran more loosely than most other Moslem groups), but form them into separate units.
Women get to fight if they want to.
120# women only have to worry about carrying other 120# women, etc.
They do have to worry about what men of other Moslem convictions will do to their women when they catch them. OTOH, this worry also serves to make the women really fight!
Zeb,
"Women do not belong in the military. "
I mostly agree with you, but if any woman does it's the one who penned this letter.
Althouse,
"If so, then I should never have been born! "
My brain is going into overdrive trying to figure out if it's non-sequitur or solipsism that's winning out here.
(Hint: your birth is not an inherent attribute of your mother's service, it's an accident.)
SGT Ted,
"The problem stems from the unreasonable expectation that women cannot handle, nor should they be expected to tolerate, the rougher aspects of male social interaction that is typical in a line unit."
That's definitely part of it; and anyone who read Sgt. Mom over at Chicagoboyz knows that there is at least one woman who could.
Michael K., Drill Sgt:
The best thing I ever read about female pilots being rushed past their abilities was a pre-web* article in American Spectator titled "Who Killed Kara Hultgreen?" Awesome in its takedown of the rush-them-into-service mentality that resulted in Ms. Hultgreen's death from being put into a situation she wasn't ready for. The one thing that really stands out, in my recollection, was for how (relatively) long the Landing Safety Officer tried to wave her off... "an eternity, in navy landing operations" is my paraphrase of what I recollect was written.
""Who Killed Kara Hultgreen?"
Yeah, it was major PC all over. The Navy went nuts after Tailhook. A bunch of senior officers were driven out of the service and I saved the story of Bob Stumpf as an example of the witch hunt.
More on Kara Hultgren and why she died.
*pre-web article:
C'mon you Spectator folks! Can't you spend a few pennies to put the best of your pre-web stuff online???
Former infantry officer weighing in here.
Just to illustrate the differences, here are the minimum male passing APFT scores, alongside the female score required to max the standard (and score a perfect 300, or 100 points on each event.) using the 18-21 age group.
Failing any one of them and not improving steadily, absent a medical profile, will eventually get you kicked out of the service.
2 Minutes of pushups:
Male minimum: 42. Female perfect score: 42.
2 minutes of situps:
Both sexes max out at 78. Minimum is 53. Surprised they went to a unisex standard. (The max is down from when I was in that age group, where the male max was in the 80s. I peaked at 107 but that was dumb. Didn't do so well on the run immediately after!)
2 mile run:
Male minimum: 15:54. Female perfect score: 15:36.
That is, a man who comes in any more than 18 seconds behind a female who nails her perfect score is an APFT failure.
And that's in basic.
I would say to keep up in a line infantry platoon... just to carry his weight and not be that one guy who always falls out on road marches and whatever, he would have to be around the 250 to 260 level on the APFT minimum. Anything less than that and he'd start getting his NCOs on his ass.
That doesn't sound all that high, but a score of 270 or above and 90 percent on each event is the bar to reach, and in a line unit, if you're not there, you'd better be in the neighborhood.
The margin between 260 and 270 isn't that much, though. A few reputations of situps. One or two extra pauses for breath doing sit-ups or pushups.
The margin between max performing woman and the barely passing by the skin of his teeth male is very small, and that male had better get his act together, because he's embarrassing his squad.
The margin between the exceptionally-performing woman of outstanding fitness and the minimum acceptable performer in the line infantry platoon is vast and probably insurmountable.
Those goddamn idiots trying to push this shit won't believe us, but it's true, and they're finding it out now.
The Marine Platoon Officer Course is chewing up women and spitting them out. I hope none of them were severely or permanently injured by this stupid social experiment.
Meanwhile, the Army is running women through Ranger School for the first time this month. Or was. Out of I think 18 of them who started the course, precisely zero made it through the first phase. A few of them will be recycled, with a whole helping of extra coaching and mentoring.
These women, by the way, are taking up valuable and scarce slots in the premier infantry school in the Army. These are very expensive, highly sought after, and there aren't enough slots to go around as it is for every qualified male combat arms officer or infantry NCO who wants to go who also has a good chance of completing the course and earning the tab.
Chances are very good that one or more of the women who try will experience a stress fracture of the pelvis, hip, or body part. We have studies that indicate that women are eight TIMES more likely to incur these types of injuries in military training environments than men are. And that was BEFORE we started trying to push them through infantry schools.
Few of the women pushing this have any idea of the daily grind in an infantry unit. If they're in good shape, maybe they make it ok through the Light Leaders Course at Schofield, or Airborne School (extremely watered down since it became coed) or Air Assault School which is less than 3 weeks long and a lot of it in class. Other than the 12 mile road march at the end (with a pack that is MUCH lighter than a typical infantry combat load), there's not much of a physical strength component at all.
But these women make it through these courses, or their non-infantry male cohorts make it through these short courses and they have no idea what it is to go through the grind day after day, week after week, months on end, and the toll it takes on your knees, spine, neck and joints.
It's tough for men, and a lot of damn fine men aren't up to it, either.
Trying to force women into these units is stupid on stilts.
"Trying to force women into these units is stupid on stilts."
There is nothing like a war to sort out these things, assuming you don't lose in the first month.
Women can think fast and that is why they are OK in roles appropriate, like intel and even flying low performance planes and helos.
That woman MP who got a silver star was in a road unit and thought fast in an ambush but she was not infantry.
The WACs and the other women's units in WWII were intended to take non-combat jobs to free men for combat roles. It is not allowed to say that now.
Find a old first sergeant who did twenty years in the infantry and see how his body is destroyed. He was that top young soldier who was unstoppable.
Twitter-heads are leading us into total absurdity.
It seems to be the case that (a) any accusation by a woman against a man is to be believed and it also seems to be the case that (b) a man is to treat a woman as he would treat another man. (b) is not possible where (a) is true but under Rules for Twitterheads both must be done.
In Oakland they've passed a law that nothing is to happen to students who defy and threaten teachers. But something will happen to these students and also to their classmates - they will have no good teachers. Is that fair to those classmates? Under Rules for Twitterheads that is what is fair, say the twitterheads.
Women are as strong as men even if the measurements of strength are done differently - see Rules for Twitterheads
Vote for Democrats if you like Rules for Twitterheads
Who writes that left-wing tripe on Wikipedia? Here's my rewrite:
. Supporters [of WACs] outside the military included Communists, fanatics with wild imaginations, ultra Feminists and Lesbians who wanted to push social change, and left-wing supporters of Roosevelt's social programs.
"The WACs and the other women's units in WWII were intended to take non-combat jobs to free men for combat roles. It is not allowed to say that now."
Another thing people don't understand is that you had 9 million women aged 18-25 during WW2 and 90% of them had no desire to be in the "service". They had a hard enough time recruiting a couple hundred thousand Waves/Wacs and Female Marines.
what post modernist wrote such tripe?
small sample size I know, but I asked my grandmother and one of her friends, who were both WAACs, and they don't remember anything of the sort.
The Drill SGT said...
"PS: I met my wife when we were both Army Captains."
And here I thought based off your handle you worked for a living...
(Hint: your birth is not an inherent attribute of your mother's service, it's an accident.)
And I'm guessing that like all pro-choice women, she favors abortion with one exception.
Give the air force a break. They don't qualify for the Marines because they know both of their parents and can spell their name correctly more than twice out of five tries."
Heh. That's a lie air force weenies tell themselves late at night when they get impotent. Like when liberal twits explain it's not their cowardice, its that they are "too smart" to be accepted by the military.
I was a Marine NCO in a line company. Both 2D and 3D LAR Battalions. And I while I've been accused of a great many faults, stupidity was never one of them.
Smartest guys I ever knew were in the S-3 of a line company. They don't tolerate Stupid because Stupid gets good men killed.
In the air force, it simply means another paper cut ;)
Jason said...
"Meanwhile, the Army is running women through Ranger School for the first time this month. Or was. Out of I think 18 of them who started the course, precisely zero made it through the first phase. A few of them will be recycled, with a whole helping of extra coaching and mentoring."
I have a ranger tab so I will let everyone in on what it takes to get through. There are 4 phases. They say 3 but it is really 4.
The first phase is a bunch of administrative crap, some stupid crawl through mud/combatives drills, PT test with 64ish min PUps, 68ish min sit-ups, and 40 minute 5 mile. There is also a 12 mile ruck march with a 45 pound pack and a 3 hour time limit. It takes about a week and you get about 2 hours of sleep a night. This washes out ~60% of the men who attend.
After that there are 3 field phases. The first is squad drills where you move about 3-5 miles, perform a mission which is either observation or defensive positioning then move back. The terrain is fairly flat and if you avoid the swamp no biggy.
Second field phase is Mountains. Physically this is the hardest phase. Every ones ruck weighs 60 pounds. If you are in weapons squad you add 20ish pounds more. You get 2 MRE's a day. Your movements have some serious vertical elements. You get about 1 hour a night on average to either eat your MRE's or sleep. There is a 5 day field problem, 1 day at the barracks then a 4 day field problem.
3rd Phase is Florida. Flat movements and not as difficult except for the swamp movement/river cross. The field problem is 10 days straight. There is one patrol where you get out of a helicopter and have to move about a mile on a time sensitive standard that was challenging physically. You get a little more sleep but same amount of food.
At the end of each of these phases you do peer evaluations for your squad. If you have 8 people in your squad you give one person a 1 and one person a 2 and so on and someone is getting a 8. Every phase people get "peered." You have to get above a 60 to avoid getting peered out. If you get all 1's you get a 100. If you get all average scores, i.e. 4.5 in a squad of 8, you get a 75.
During each phase you must get a "Go" to pass the phase. Very arbitrary and subjective. Leadership positions are rotated twice a day. You have to get the people you are leading to do stuff they don't want to do after they are starved and sleep deprived.
If you do this in winter you will get frost bite. I still don't feel hot/cold in my finger tips well and have burning incidents where I grab hot things.
Unless they change Ranger School fundamentally there is a vanishingly small number of women that could pass.
Fen,
Indeed.
Which California pol was it who addressed the pro-abortion rally thus:
"I'm here in solidarity with you today, because my mother couldn't get an abortion!"
"Excuse me, miss... I speak Jive."
A friends daughter joined the air force. During basic training she got pregnant by another trainee. Combined training certainly is comprehensive. The Air Force didn't kick her out and she was even allowed to complete her advanced schooling. It's mind boggling.
I'm still wondering if Ann blames the military for being born or praises the military for being born. But unless she comes up with an explanation of why the military was indispensable to her birth her comment makes absolutely no sense. But then, Ann on the military and sex should not be confused with linear thinking.
Achilles said...
And here I thought based off your handle you worked for a living..
- Enlisted 69
- Applied for OCS, made the wait list, went to Nam (reapply when you get back they said)
- Nam 70-71, E3-E5, Mostly Signal Intel, but did some Infantry stuff till my clearance arrived. 101 ABn. Standing in paddies watching M-48's go by, I decided that was civilized
71, back from Nam, volunteered as a Drill SGT
- Top Grad at DS school, offered E-6, passed and got out
- went back to college and joined ROTC.
- 74 Commissioned Regular Army Armor, with a top 5% fellowship to grad school
so I worked for a living for a while
Women certainly do not belong in Marine Corp 03 billets. However, I think many women could compete well as aviators, including flying fighters.
My first jet carrier landing training instructor was a female Navy Lt. who was both skilled and attractive. Years, later I went with my daughter to the graduation event of the Air Force test pilot school at Edwards AFB. It was an extraordinary, impressive formal event in a large hanger with all officers wearing dress blues. (The Air Force has seemingly unlimited amounts of money available in contrast to the Marine Corps that works out of deployment boxes lined with waterproofing paper.)
Present for the event, but not in the graduating class, were over two dozen women with wings and rows of combat ribbons...and frankly, some of them looked fabulous.
The guy who was given the award as the best pilot of the class was greeted at his table by his stunning wife dressed in a lovely gown who, as it turned out, had been given the same award the previous year. She was just there that evening as his wife, but her name was in the program that listed all prior awardees.
Really, it was breath-taking.
It shouldn't go unmentioned that there is now a female Marine flying with the Blue Angels in their C130. I look forward to the day that one is selected to fly one of their Hornets....and if she's as cute as that Fat Albert pilot, so much the better.
- Krumhorn
exhelodrvr1: "The box lunches you get at a USAF base when refueling on a cross-country flight are WAY better than anything you'll get at a USMC/USN base."
We used to go a bit out of our way to make sure we did our pit stops at the "best" Air Force bases.
Not only were the box lunches outstanding, but airmen would actually deliver them to you!
One other quick note: The Air Force types who trained at our base and stayed in our BOQ were actually awarded additional pay for having to stay in sub-standard housing.
And that was AFTER the Navy had rehabbed the BOQ!
WAY too many misinformed and poorly informed comments on this thread for me to even try and correct them but my sister-in-law would be upset with me if I did not point out that Israeli women can and do serve in the IDF infantry- it's called the Caracal Battalion, and it is a gender-mixed (about one-third male, two-thirds female) infantry battalion.
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