"A lull in any conversation is to be avoided at all costs—even if it means talking about the latest viral cat video or celebrity breakup. The Finns I’ve met, on the other hand, embrace the awkward silence. They understand that it’s a part of the natural rhythm of human interaction. Sure, Finns know how to have conversations, but they’re not driven by a compulsion to fill time and space with needless chatter."
From "5 Bad American Habits I Kicked in Finland." #1 is "I don’t fear awkward silences."
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Finns are by definition: silent...
I wonder what part of America he's from. Or whether I'm just atypical (I'm probably just atypical). I'm fine with long silences in conversation -- sufficiently so that I sometimes have to kick myself to remind myself that people expect me to say something.
On the other hand, I do regularly say things I don't mean (it is called manners), and although it is a struggle, I sometimes manage to leave food on my plate (otherwise I would be even fatter than I am). I take coffee to go, and while I do hotsprings, I still feel somewhat self-conscious.
So really, everything except the awkward silence.
I am unconvinced that all five of the kicked habits were bad. Or American. Just for instance: how is drinking coffee in a travel cup a bad habit? And don't other peoples in other nations do it? Or does every foreigner, upon being served coffee, sit silently for twenty minutes and stare straight ahead while taking sips? (Possibly in the nude, with strangers, but not sexually, of course.)
I'm just skeptical, is all.
This really ought to be linked to the recent Obama comments on the Inquisition. They come from the same place, what James Taranto at WSJ likes to call "oikophobia" — fear of one's own people. It's the dominant cultural trait of the left and has been for decades now (at least since I was in college in the 1990s, maybe before). "The west," defined however broadly the current moment requires it, is always wrong. Then, if you are comparing the United States to other western countries, the US is always wrong.
I realize the headline of the article is clickbait or whatever, but reading it you really get the sense that the author believes, beyond "Americans could learn something from Finns," that the Finnish way is actually superior.
It would be perfectly respectable relativism if it stopped at "hey, their way has some merit too. But so does ours." But no, with the modern leftist, it can never stop there. The "other" — whoever it may be — is always right. "We" (but not really "we," the benighted "we" who are other from the other but also other from me) are always wrong.
By the way, I say this as a Canadian immigrant to the U.S. Even Canadians, broadly speaking, harbor US resentment and a judgmental attitude. I never understood or agreed with it when I lived there, and I certainly don't now, even though I live in besotted California.
Hmmm. I was taught to remain silent to avoid exposing my ignorance.
By the way, Ignorance Is Bliss's post at 2:17 is pure bliss.
I love how American habits seem to ALWAYS be bad.
From Wiki:
List of countries by suicide rate.
Average Suicides per 100,000 people per year:
Finland: 16.0
USA: 12.5
To the author: maybe those were not lulls in the conversation -- perhaps it is just the Finn you were conversing with killed himself once you finally stopped talking.
I am Laslo.
Some people have difficulty experiencing silence in the company of others.
Silence is never awkward.
Has there ever been an article where the author discusses what we in the US do better than Europe?
Hell, feminists, I'll give you one --- we're WAY more tolerant of abortion.
So when the Yank does the unpardonable and says hello a few hours after the first greeting of the day, does the Finn respond in kind, smirk at the buffoonery on display or maintain a haughty silence?
Yeah, much better.
I plead not guilty to 3, 4 and 5 on the list.
1 and 2 are too culturally ubiquitous for me to concern myself with. I might if I moved to Finland.
But I do generally disapprove of people talking just for the sake of talking.
The Atlantic. Used to read it before it became Salon's pretentious older sister.
Perhaps due to a childhood in Sweden and Iceland, I have at times felt it necessary as an adult in America to state that I fear neither silence nor solitude. (Try winter on the Arctic Cirle.)
Now this:
I shouted gruffly to my wife, “Why don’t we have one decent thermos in this house?”
Johanna snapped back, “Because we live in Europe. And Europeans don’t take coffee to go!”
is unmitigated bullshit humblebrag.
There is no home in Iceland or Sweden without one.
This provides a very useful tactic when taking a deposition. After a witness finishes his answer to my question, I pause before asking my next question while looking at the witness. This awkward silence causes the witness to resume talking, and I have frequently obtained very helpful testimony that way.
I smiled when I read the section on Americans and "awkward silence" because that was exactly my experience when I moved to the U.S. thirty-five years ago. Americans I've interacted with abhor silence.
Even in corporate hiring when I had the opportunity to interview highly qualified candidates from some of the best business schools, I was always struck by how uncomfortable they became if there was any silence during the interview. All too often candidates would try to fill in the silence and reveal things thing migh not say otherwise.
SteveM said...
This provides a very useful tactic when taking a deposition.
It's true of any sort of interview. I use it on job candidates all the time. When you have something you're actively trying to avoid saying, it's just sitting there on the edge of your perception, and if I can get you to talk long enough, eventually you'll get around to it.
Terve,
American here in Finland. The sauna thing, yes. Coffee, don't drink it. But Finns do have thermoses, they do use them. The food on the plate thing, yes. We do not have garbage disposers in our kitchens. Don't ask someone how they are, they will tell you. Awkward silence, Finns not good at small talk. If you learn the language, you will learn this.
Kiitos!
Yes, prove they're "bad" and then we can start talking about what to do about them.
By the way, I just stumbled on an online report called, "5 Bad American Habits I Kicked in the Islamic State."
I don't remember them all but among them there was:
Letting a Christian live. "Here in the Islamic State they understand that it's part of the natural rhythm of human interaction to kill Christians."
How about this, an article called "5 Bad Habits Finns Have".
1) They're so self-involved that they lapse into awkward silence for no reason.
Etc.
All hail the Suomians.
Don't fear awkward silence?
Shut up then.
With a language like theirs, it's no wonder they stay silent.
What is the definition of a Finnish extrovert?
He looks at your shoes...
Ba dump bump.
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
In moderation, of course. Everybody knows you are American anyway and will make allowances.
As for habits and conventions, consider if they are bad, or just different. Spitting on the sidewalk is bad, even if you are Chinese, but there is no harm in saying "How are you?" as a greeting.
They must be too cold to speak. I can understand that.I pray for Global warming for their sakes. But weren't these guys the biggest cell phone makers in the beginning before Apple ate the business.
However, if you do that you should be prepared to listen politely while the other person tells you how he/she is.
Ask Meade if there are Finnish dog breeds. I never heard of one. And if it's too cold for dogs, it's too cold.
When I hear arrogant Euro-trash crapping out of their mouths, I'm wishing for silence- awkward, agile or any kind- just STFU douchebags!
My 11 year old son causes fits because of this.
If we go to a restaurant, the waitress comes and gets a drink order. The normal thing is to respond quite quickly as she looks at each person.
When she gets to my son, he generally stares for a good 5 count before answering. It usually causes the waitress or waiter to ask again during the awkward silence, thinking he must not have heard the question.
But he is like this in all things. If you ask him, what's 2+2? He usually will wait a 3 or 4 count before answering.
He isn't slow, mentally. He is probably my brightest child.
Americans all have the same habits?
Dog breeds from Finland.
I await an article titled "5 bad progressive habits I was never lame enough to pick up."
Followed by the inevitable comment "Only five?"
FedkatheConvict: My first boss at a Big 8 accounting firm was the champion of the awkward silence. Former military intelligence officer who wore a bowtie. He would ask an open ended question. The interviewee would babble for a while and wait for him to respond. He would never respond and never break eye contact. It could last more than a few minutes. The interviewee would then try fill up the awkward silence with bullshit and end up slitting his own throat. That guy could crush anyone in an interview.
I have yet to meet Jew who doesn't...
I have yet to meet black who doesn't...
I have yet to meet a gay who doesn't...
Lyle said...
"Americans all have the same habits?"
2. Generalization of things you don't understand.
3. General ignorance.
5. Constant postulations on things you are ignorant of.
He's so special! I am not sure whether The Atlantic can become any more precious. I am sure that it will keep trying.
In my anecdotal experience, men are much less inclined to feel awkward if there is a lull in the conversation. A generalization for sure, but I am talking about averages. Personally, I don't speak in a conversation just for the sake of speaking.
My dearest sibling spent a lot of time in Finland, and tells stories of making Finns uncomfortable by smiling at them, just like Americans are uncomfortable by silence. (I have no problem with silence).
I do like the idea of not taking coffee to go. Sit down and enjoy it in the shop!
If you ask him, what's 2+2? He usually will wait a 3 or 4 count before answering.
He isn't slow, mentally. He is probably my brightest child.
Just calculating from first principles and doing the proof first.
Looking forward to a similar screed by Bruce Jenner: 5 Bad Male Habits I Kicked After I Had My Balls Cut Off.
There was a time when I kind of thought that I wouldn't mind banging my sister-in-law's au pair.
She was from Finland.
Sleek and toned like a well-oiled porpoise, but absolutely as dumb as a stump.
She never had much to say.
Five bad Finnish habits I quit in America:
1. I don't get drunk every single night.
2. I don't commit suicide at rates alarming even for those in the rest of Europe.
3. I don't hate Russia 24/7; I just hate it 23/7.
4. Did I mention the former Soviet Union?
5. I will not have an inferiority complex.
The writer's wife Johanna sounds like a real bitch.
Any trial lawyer will confirm for you that part of the proper and ethical preparation of one's side's own witnesses is to help them overcome this impulse.
"Answer the question; just that question; then stop."
Most witnesses have a hard time actually following this advice, but a few do better for having heard it than they otherwise might.
When I'm taking the lawyer doing the hostile cross-examination, though, I can often use silence very effectively.
How do the Finns feel about "Smell my finger"?
16 suicides per 100,000 people? South Korea laughs at your puny suicide rate. South Korea's female suicide rate is higher than that. Her male suicide rate is almost 40/100,000 (and WHO in 2012 had it as almost 42.)
Greenland, though -- things must be really awful there.
American women will avoid meeting your eyes.
Think it is the high school dating thing; if they meet your eyes and smile, it is taken as a come-on, and is to be avoided.
Finnish art/amusement
MadisonMan:
"My dearest sibling...tells stories of making Finns uncomfortable by smiling at them,"
I don't know any Finns, but you've reminded me of Herman Wouk's fictitious Victor Henry, describing WWII Russians in a letter home:
"Russians smile only when amused, never to be pleasant. It makes them seem distant and surly. I guess we strike them as grinning monkeys."
My Russian friends have all found this very funny, then stopped and said, You know, that's about right.
I really dislike this sort of expat meditation on cultural differences. It's so boring and unsatisfying.
Oh, you lived overseas for awhile and now feel like an expert on life at home and abroad? How interesting.
Some cultures are a bit grim, in my opinion. I am aware of the superficial friendliness we have here in America, and that people are often pretending to be happy to be near you when in fact they hate your guts. I am aware of it. But it's what I'm used to. When I go to other countries, I sometimes mistake their coldness and quiet for dislike, when in fact what the natives are registering is indifference.
Vive la difference, as the Canadians say.
Beldar (4:32 pm) makes the good point that a lawyer must instill in a witness the rule that you answer the question; just that question; then stop.
My practice often involved expert witnesses, and there's a variant of that rule for experts. In depositions, follow Beldar. At trial, the expert should do the same thing, and then (where appropriate) say, Would you like me to tell you why? That lawyer has probably spent hours crafting a question to which a true answer will leave a damaging impression with the jury or judge (a Have you stopped beating your wife? question); is he prepared to take on the expert about why he answered as he did? That's when it gets to be fun.
To the best of my recollection, I never had a Finnish witness, expert or otherwise, in 40 + years.
I am a quiet person at work. No socializing-just listening and then acting.
I am quiet outside of work too-my hog does my speaking, and it's large, hard and a wrecking machine.
Everyone at work loves me, natch, and invites me to parties, dindins, lunches, etc but I never attend.
I do have to attend dindin with fab high level potential candidates at fab restaurants and they immediately want to work for my company because I know how to schmooze-although I would rather not have dindin with them.
tits.
One and two, okay.
But three through five?
Three is a good rule if you want to get fat or have to eat a lot of stuff that turns out to be terrible.
Four is stupid. I often take coffee to go and then sit and drink it in a leisurely manner. By taking coffee to go, you choose the location of your coffee consumption. I've taken a large thermos of coffee to the park, where I've sat and leisurely consumed the whole thing.
And five? Why? Because it's fun to hang out in an overly hot room with naked strangers? No. No, it is not.
There was a reason why sailors in the age of sail were afraid to have Finns onboard. Now I can see why. They cause far too much trouble.
As a former outside salesperson, I LOVE the 'awkward silence.'
Do Europeans write articles about what annoying European habits they've dropped now that they've found out about the great American way of doing things?
I get so tired of this.
That said, when I lived in Liberia, one or more of my neighbors often would come over and just sit with me, not saying a word after the initial greeting and hand-holding. I found it disconcerting. Later someone told me that Liberians just don't want you to be alone and possibly lonely. They want to keep you company, and for them, sitting in silence is a nice gesture.
It took a little getting used to!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5yTT3tlg2A
Twenty-two minutes by that kitchen clock on the wall Ricky! Not a word, not a motion!!! And am I thinking "is my arm getting tired?" No. I Did it!!! It's like the old days, like I was taught. I did it!... They signed. It was great, it was so. Fucking. Great!
There's a typical rhythm to American conversation. If the pause becomes outside the normal range, look at the eyes of the person whose turn it is to speak---if he's thinking, then he's just one of those people who takes longer to put thoughts into words. If he's pausing to gain advantage through your discomfiture, then the meta-conversation indicates he's not your friend.
Fortunately, the 21st century has provided a counter-measure; wait a few more beats then pull out your smartphone and check your emails and texts. "Oh? I thought we were done."
I'm not finnish, yet I love silence. I can work away for hours in my shop, with one of my sons working right next to me, and we won't exchange more than a dozen words some days. I can drive for hours with a full car, and never say a word, used to drive my mother crazy who couldn't stand more than 10 seconds of silence. I just don't usually have that much to say, plus, "If he is not edified by my silence, he will not be edified by my speech."
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I don't like the new fashion where someone will wrinkle their nose and say "awkward!"
In at least 50 percent of cases, the situation wasn't awkward until someone declared it so.
Of course, from that point onward, it is invariably awkward.
Some people have difficulty experiencing silence in the company of others.
I learned all about silence with my ex-wife. Yes, she would give me, on occasion, the silent treatment for a couple days at a time, and most often I had not clue as to why she was upset, just that she was. Women seem to think that you can read their minds, and that is flatly impossible with most of the women I have met.
But, that isn't what I was talking about here. I think that I first saw this when we went out car shopping. She warned me that she would use silence, and that I shouldn't fill it. In negotiations, often the first party to speak loses. And, sure enough, there came a couple of points where the conversation ball was in her court, and she just sat there, saying nothing. And, sure enough, it worked. Every time she would do this, the deal got better.
So, after we got divorced, she would try it with me. But, having been on the other side, I knew what was going on. So, I would start talking about the weather, sports, etc. Anything off topic and totally irrelevant. Surprisingly, it worked. So, if you have to fill that conversation void, do so on a different topic.
I am an American. I pause when I talk. I have been told in job performance reviews that my habit of pausing makes people think I am withholding some information and thinking of some sneaky way not to have to say it.
So I concur--Americans are uncomfortable with pauses in speech. Maybe I should vacation in Finland.
Happy Festivus! And now for the airing of grievances. I have a lot of trivial problems with you people.
Interesting that the same Europeans who criticize Americans for being obese have a socially mandated clean-plate policy. And how dare he even think of taking his coffee on the go like an American! His wife certainly put him in his place.
That's it. I've been silent for 8 hours. Time to chatter away again.
"As a former outside salesperson, I LOVE the 'awkward silence.'"
We teach medical students the use of silence in interviewing. Most patients will add something if you wait long enough. Sometimes it's important and something they might not tell you spontaneously.
..........
The Finns have a higher suicide rate than we do, too.
Coincidence? I think not.
Typical American provincialism. The traits she is describing are more specific to Helsinki. I have a friend from Oulu and he never shuts up. Especially when he starts drinking.
Yeah... most of this is just adapting manners to the local culture.
If he's still calling the silences "awkward", I'm not sure how much he's used to them. As an amusing side-note, where I live currently, a Finnish tourist who talked on the phone on public transportation would be ejected at the next stop. FWIW, I'd put Americans on a spectrum somewhere between Finns and Spanish here... pretty close to the British.
I can't help but wonder if #2 is partly a language issue. People do take things more literally in a non-native language.
#5 is honestly far more interesting than #1.
Finland? Is that a country or something?
Eric said...
He is probably my brightest child.
You shouldn't insult your children in public.
My wife and I are both introverts and both Americans as well. I was once annoyed with her for some reason and gave her the silent treatment for about a week. She didn't notice.
Eric said,
"But he is like this in all things. If you ask him, what's 2+2? He usually will wait a 3 or 4 count before answering."
On an adult-to-child basis, I imagine I would very much enjoy your boy's company. It would be fascinating to explore how his mind works.
Have you ever done it back at him to see how handles it?
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