“The fact is the university has never acknowledged that they made a mistake in suspending 25 percent of the student body that had nothing to do with an article that proved to be erroneous,” said [Kevin O’Neill, a lawyer for the two frats]. “The university has not apologized and has not explained why they took this action.... Some of the things they are asking students to do, like stand at top of the stairs and monitor rooms, creates a duty the school should be bearing themselves if that’s their concern."
January 14, 2015
"2 UVA Frats Refuse to Sign Agreement Forged After Rape Story."
"Alpha Tau Omega and Kappa Alpha Order said the university was wrong to suspend all Greek life in the wake of a Nov. 19 article that purported to detail the gang rape of a woman named 'Jackie'..."
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Good for them. Apparently the university violated the previous FOA so the fraternities seem to have an actionable case of breach of contract.
"You are guilty; Now we will have a trial". Did that school take a trip through the looking glass?
Glad to see them showing some backbone on this one.
Never let a crisis go to waste...
Les Kappa Alpha Order and Alpha Tau Omega sont Charlie.
They should hang the university out to dry! If the U wants to act "in loco parentis" then let it actually do so. The more these cases (sexual assault accusations, hampering freedom of speech) are adjudicated the better for the educational establishment - and the Feds.
It was the blogosphere that first called bullshit on the story. This guy is a published author and has an intersesting perspective on the whole thing :richardbradley.net
Personally, I think the liars involved should suffer a bit. "Jackie", who made up and then embellished her rape lie could possibly benefit from therapy and medication.
The reporter,Sabrina Rubin Erdeley, deserves more punishment than the mild embarrassment she is currently experiencing.
The school administration should be publicly shamed in the MSM.
I don't think this is as political as some might think. Although I love every bit of the pushback that is being delivered to the UVa administration, Rolling Stone and the left/feminist press.
In fact, I think that some of the rules sought to be imposed on the frats carried with them some real vicarious liability/dramshop/general liability concerns for the frats and their insurers.
The university seemingly wanted the frats to appoint hall monitor type people to be designated observers at all parties. Which might well make them responsible (beyond what the frats currently have as their own in-house risk management rules) for any incidents.
This just adds to the number of good reasons for the frats to say, "Nope."
Expel them! Expel all the rape apologists!
So what are the consequences for the frats if they don't have an agreement with the administration? Can they operate?
The frats are right to push back. The university president should be fired for her illegal actions, for defaming the fraternities, and for exposing the university to ridicule and legal liability. Punch back twice as hard.
They should send around a petition requiring all staff and administration follow the exact same rules at their own homes.
http://curmudgeonlyskeptical.blogspot.com/search/label/When%20Liberals%20Are%20in%20Charge
Godfather - Most frats can't operate unless sanctioned by the university. It's usually a requirement of the national organization, insurers, etc.
Nobody who was in one ever called them frats, at least where I went and when I was there.
Adding the extra three syllables is cumbersome.
But frats sounds bad -- rhymes with slats, the crude reference to the lower ladyparts (i.e. "Kick her in the slats")
Debating frats and slats. It's what we do.
I couldn't help but notice the word "reasonable" prepended to demands by the university administration that are anything but reasonable.
I am still scratching my head over the inclusion of sororities in the mix. This was my first inkling that sororities are part of the alleged rape culture.
Facts be damned. The meme is well established. Frats are dens of roving rapists. Women are under siege. Micro-aggressions are breeding like bunnies on Viagra. Seeking facts is rape denial. Due process is unacceptable. Cops and courts? Nonsense, the accused must be hauled before the Queen of Hearts.
Good on those not signing. Will the UVa administrators bend? Will lawyers reap millions in fees? Stay tuned to the young and lawless.
First, please don't shorten the word fraternity - we don't shorten the word, country.
Second, I'm glad they're pushing back. They were infairly and unjustly targeted by UVA - they shouldn't let that slide. If the university pursues this further, Title IX lawsuits are in order. Should be fun to watch.
Firings and personal liability and more zero's added to the settlement totals.
That'll learn'em.
I like your use of the verb forged.
I'm confused. Was the agreement a forgery? Or were the signatures of the two frats forged? And is anyone with the university going to be prosecuting for forgery?
Good--stand up to this madness. The school shouldn't get a pass for its role in that farce. Hopefully they go after Rolling Stone next.
Excellent! Time to pop the popcorn, sit back and see what the other fraternities and - especially - sororities do. There are a lot of them. If all or most of them tell Sullivan to piss up a rope, it's gonna get real interesting in ole C'ville.
Jackie could benefit from expulsion from school.
BarrySanders20 - As awesome as your handle is, you must be from some place where everyone had a broom handle colonoscopy. I was a member of Phi Kappa Psi Virginia BETA (please note) and the word "frat" was used all the time.
Is there no interest in suing the University for damages? In this case, it's the proper recourse and might prevent future administrative overreach. Force the University to form a committee to determine is was at fault and demote them.
Bob R- Just a solid Midwestern school, the Cradle of Coaches and the Mother of Fraternities. We were good kids who used brooms for their proper purpose-- broomball at Goggin Ice Arena.
Frats must be a semi-southern thing. It has that kind of twang.
The UVA President's penance could be to serve as room monitor at these two frats for a year. The statement does seem to invite that.
Barry - A Virginia Tech guy is allowed to look down on schools from Ohio (and only Ohio) this year.
"Frats must be a semi-southern thing. It has that kind of twang."
The term sets my teeth on edge. It is used by ignoramuses who know nothing about fraternities, except of course that they are bad.
Frats was also used at Carnegie-Mellon, which is in the deep South of Pittsburgh, PA.
So, to get back to reality, if it's true that "frats [i.e., fraternities and sororities] can't operate unless sanctioned by the university", what leverage do these two fraternities have vis-a-vis UVa? I suppose that if they have leverage it must be pressure that their alums and other supporters can bring to bear on the UVa administration. Because UVa is a State school, I assume that such pressure would be more political (pressuring the Legislature) than directly economic (withholding contributions).
Is there any real prospect of this happening, or are those who are applauding the two recalcitrant fraternities just encouraging martyrdom?
The last question is sincere, not rhetorical; I am not a robot.
Why, exactly, do a bunch of guys need the University's permission to live together in a house that they own?
I'm proud of my fraternity, KA, for standing up to UVa on this issue. I hope they push it hard.
Just to get this out of the way out front. I was an undergraduate at Washington and Lee and am a Virginia Tech professor since I moved here from UW in 1988. Hostility (light hearted) to UVa is in my blood.
However, I think people are oversimplifying the case against Sullivan. In November, her job was to put out the fire of a huge PR nightmare that has now been shown to be fraudulent. Applications to UVa are down this year. How much her actions hurt or helped is unknown.
She chose to shut down public social activities at the fraternities and sororities during a period that (mostly) they would have been closed anyway - final exams and during break. The penalty she put on fraternities was at most minor. Suppose she got a couple of hundred applications from good students by canceling a couple of dozen parties. Maybe not noble, but I wonder what the board of visitors thinks.
My problem with her actions is that none of them seem likely to address any real problem (and you only need to look at the logs at the student health centers to see that there are a lot of problems on college campuses that have nothing to do with phoney statistics about a rape epidemic.) (1) As I said above, the shutdown occurred when the frats would have been shut down anyway. Charlottesville is a ghost town when no classes are in session. (2) The new rules are a farce. How stupid is it to police the manner in which frats will break the 21 year-old drinking age law? Defy the state of Virginia, but obey Sullivan's rules on frat-house hall monitors? Seems unlikely.
Of course, Sullivan could really go after the frats and have them pay for ABC agents hired by the college for every even at which alcohol is served. (Someone brought up fairness. That's what the math department at VT has to do if we want to serve beer at the Christmas party. The administration seems to have funds for this. The departments, not so much.)
But it does not seem to me that UVa wants to drive underage drinking out of the frats. If VT (where there is a much smaller frat scene) is any indication, the house party scene is at least as bad. (Southern VA has a bluegrass party scene that makes the college parties look tame.)
Sullivan doesn't have the courage to suggest bringing college drinking "out of the shadows." She is tightly tied in with the Washington establishment and can't think outside of that tight box.
I read this story and am somewhat disgusted with the young men quoted. They sound "mature", but lacking in spirit. They have been grossly insulted, and know their enemies. A young man full of life and enterprise should not hesitate to get his revenge (non violently, but with as much noise and scandal as required).
Leaving the administration with two options--cave or suspend them. This could get interesting.
Oh, what fun could be had !
To be young, strong, clever, naughty, and have perfectly legitimate enemies for your victims.
- a ton of manure dumped on the Rolling Stone publishers front lawn. Let him sue.
- burning the university president in effigy at every fraternity function.
And this is just unimaginative me.
Youth is wasted on the young.
So, to get back to reality, if it's true that "frats [i.e., fraternities and sororities] can't operate unless sanctioned by the university", what leverage do these two fraternities have vis-a-vis UVa?
Well one possibility is exploiting the fact that the new FOA has different rules for sororities than fraternities. Which sure sounds like at least a prima facie case of sex discrimination to me. So file a Title IX lawsuit against UVa.
If The Patriarchy resists the awareness-raising social change this teachable moment has inspired it will mean that feminists have burned the Reichstag in vain!
As feminists have created an entire industry setting Reichstags on fire (Duke Lacrosse, Oberlin's "Barry", etc.) there is no way they will surrender this their most powerful tool for expanding and asserting their authority.
The next teachable moment will be what happens to these two fraternities. Only a court of law -- a REAL court of law, not a university feminist kangaroo court -- has the power to prove me wrong. I hope these brave fraternities have good lawyers. As revolutionaries they will need all the help they can get.
"In a time of universal deceit, to tell the truth is a revolutionary act."
- George Orwell
I think that if those boys want to go to college they should just start their own and leave the girls out of it!
Sullivan doesn't have the courage to suggest bringing college drinking "out of the shadows."
I read -- last month? -- a very interesting article on the Drinking Culture in Athens GA and how the town and state benefited from it, meaning there is pressure to allow it to continue. I wonder how much tax revenue/fine revenue in a smallish town like Charlottesville is directly attributable to Drinking by rich (or not-so-rich) college students.
I thought 'forged' in the headline was very misleading.
UVA's standard appears to be, "The accusations could have been true, so therefore we must act as though they were true"?
And in other news, John McAdams is still banned from Marquette's campus...
I just don't get what it is with adults wanting to force rules on college students- adults- they themselves would never want to live by.
The affirmative consent rules, and now the house party monitor rules.
They are trying to create an alternate reality, in a most intrusive manner, for *other* adults.
The new rules apply to frats but not sororities. Seems like a clear case of illegal discrimination.
The new rules also say that frat parties are a "minuscule" part of fraternity live.
http://vpsa.virginia.edu/sites/vpsa.virginia.edu/files/Inter-Fraternity_Council_FOA_Addendum.pdf
When I was in school Animal House was a pretty accurate representation of frat life.
The new rules require a stair monitor who has keys to all frat rooms. Does that mean sex between willing students is not allowed?
The new rules outlaw kegs, substantially increasing costs for the frat.
Good for them for fighting this BS.
Look at all the rules that can come about because of a false stat, a false story, and a Social Justice Warrior sitting next to our president.
The thing about "fraternity" instead of "frat" may be age related. When I was an active member of a fraternity in the late 1960s and early 1970s, we were taught that only GDIs (G** D**N Independents) used "frat", and using such indicated a negative view of the Greek system.
Back then, parties were part of fraternity life, but not a predominant part. It wasn't that different from my kid, who graduated a couple years ago, having gone Greek at my urging. Living with your brothers teaches a lot of lessons, that you don't learn otherwise. And, as a result, they are for many their best friends from college decades later.
Besides, the parties, we together learned about women, and dealing with them. A lot of us had girlfriends, but for4 some, it was more problematic than for others. We also learned about service. Back then, and even today in many cases, fraternities and sororities engage in much more public service and the like than most students. I still remember fondly one of the events we did when I was chapter president - we joined with a sorority and set a world trampoline record for continuously jumping for more than a month on a trampoline. Of course, we got pledges first, from parents, alums, and other students, and they went to charity. That was the big charity event of the semester, but no where near the only one.
I have no intention of raping anyone, but I make no promises.
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