Said Governor Jerry Brown at the ground-breaking ceremony for California's $68 billion high-speed rail system.
Yeah, how can you not not afford that?
Isn't it wonderful that after all these years, they're actually starting the darned thing?
And isn't if comforting to know that if it ever actually comes into existence, it will comfort Jerry Brown... if he's still among us and able to walk around and shake hands?
The 142-mile rail line will choo-choo crowds from
ADDED: Ultimately, the plan is for a 520-mile line that is supposed to get people from downtown L.A. to downtown San Francisco. We're told there's "hope" of getting that done by 2029 and also that "The authority needs to speed up the eminent domain process, since only 100 of the 500 land parcels needed for the rails and stations have been purchased." Which ones? Have they got all that downtown L.A. and San Francisco land yet?
My prediction is that these endpoints — without which no one would want this project — will never be reached by the line that's getting started now in Fresno. The only question is when people will freak out sufficiently to abandon the desperate throwing of good money after bad. I feel sorry for California, and I say that as someone who voted for Scott Walker in 2010 on the single issue of rejecting the lure of federal money to build a high-speed train.
It's not that I don't care about the environment. I do! I have a much better solution for California than its huge-carbon-footprint construction project. Stop traveling between San Francisco and L.A. Pick one! You know you prefer San Francisco or L.A. Just pick one and satisfy yourself with all the wonderful attractions and indulgences of San Francisco OR L.A. What are the arguments against that option? Please lay them out, because I would like to see them in writing so I can form an opinion of what kind of an environmentalist you really are.
Posts
278 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 278 of 278Original Mike said...
"28% of the Wisconsin budget comes directly from the federal government."
Teachable moment.
And where does the federal government get its money?
Rusty, I was quoting garage. Try and keep up.
That argument actually made sense to you when you came up with it? Amazing
Amazing you can type a response without an actual response. Your unknown displeasure is duly noted.
If Walker were truly concerned about federal funds drying up, instead of straight up lying, he would return 28% of our budget back to the federal government.
Uh. Nevermind.
>>And where does the federal government get its money?
From those other people, but not from us. We get all ours back.
Next question, please.
When you are a liberal, there are no "teachable moments". You already know everything.
I love the quaint notion promulgated mostly (but, alas, not exclusively) by the unicorn believers on the Left that "federal money" is somehow different from "state money." All government money comes from taxpayers, unless it is seized from the losers of a war--which, come to think of it, characterizes the American taxpayer as well.
Amazing you can type a response without an actual response
I would have thought my casual dismissal of your unsupported and extremely silly claim was implied. :)
When the federal government borrows money @ 1%, it sure seems like free money. Until rates go back to their historical averages.
I wish the feds would lend me ten million at 1%. To service the debt, I'd pay $100k/year out of the principle and live on another $100k/year. At that rate I'd run out of money in fifty years, but I'll be dead by then.
I think that Thorstein Veblen provided this best possible explanation for this project. It will provide a way for rich people, like the businessmen who go back and forth between SF and LA and the other members of the coastal gentry, to display their wealth in a conspicuous manner while still allowing them to wear the moral pose of being "green," which is harder to do when you travel by NetJet. The gentry are the heart of the Governor's constituency and he is happy to provide this little benefit for them.
Sorry Mike. The quote was from garage.
$68B is just chump change for Mr. Moonbeam, which is why he's called that.
I would have thought my casual dismissal of your unsupported and extremely silly claim was implied
Wisconsin depends on the federal government. We would cease to exist without them. The idea that Walker made a principled decision that the federal government wouldn't come through on their promise is for really dumb people to believe.
"The Governor contends that it would be risky to accept the increased Medicaid funding, but the DHS request illustrates one of the flaws in that line of argument. The much higher federal match rate for expansion states is locked in by statute, and that helps make the federal share of Medicaid expansion spending more secure than the regular federal match rate, which is gradually declining. In addition, the Governor’s alternative plan relies on another source of federal funding – the subsidies for Marketplace insurance plans – to finance coverage of parents the state cut from BadgerCare. As I noted in a previous blog post, over the next couple of years there are more reasons to fear the elimination of that subsidy funding than the federal funds for Medicaid expansions."
Humbly submitted for your perusal:
http://www.ego-vero.net/main/?p=1934
Hagar said...
"Seattle is built on ash from Mt. Rainier."
The solid parts are ash from mount Rainier. Most of Seattle is built on landfill. One of my friends described what will likely happen if there is a real earthquake.
Not to mention the proximity to lots of water. Being in a tunnel under sea level near the ocean seems really stupid but that's just me.
There's no need to be conspiratorial.
The reasoning I'm seeing here is: "the train incredibly expensive... it will increase deficits permanently... there is no workable way to build it... and there's no demand for it... so there must be some nefarious reason why it is being built".
Not so.
You're dealing with a group of politicians who are incapable of grasping concepts like "cost-benefit analysis". People who simply cannot conceive that a large government project might not work out as intended. Don't assume that these people realize the plan is insane and unworkable -- it is far more likely that they have simply dismissed all the analysis because it conflicts with their preconceived notions of the world.
"Public transportation is good. Spending money on good things is also good. This is public transportation, therefore this is good, and thus worth spending money on."
That is all the thought they put into this. It is, quite honestly, all the thought the voters put into it when the project was first authorized.
Peter,
"Of course, air travel requires the full-Monty security dance, and airports must be some distance from downtowns. [emphasis added]"
Ummm, no. Today's security-theater nonsense is a feature of our political stupidity, not something actually required for air travel.
Terry said...
"When the federal government borrows money @ 1%, it sure seems like free money. Until rates go back to their historical averages.
I wish the feds would lend me ten million at 1%. To service the debt, I'd pay $100k/year out of the principle and live on another $100k/year. At that rate I'd run out of money in fifty years, but I'll be dead by then."
The cost of money is too abstract a concept for progressives. The costs of printing money is also above their understanding of economics. It is free money!
The fact that we have printed/borrowed 12% of our GDP over 2% average GDP growth during the Obama years is too much for them. Undermining lending standards in the 90's and the 2008 correction that resulted was Bush's fault. The obvious inevitable correction for Obamanomics will be blamed on austerity. Book it. It was stupid Republicans that wouldn't take free money to build trains nobody wants to ride.
No worries, Rusty.
How long did it take our Irish and Chinese forefathers to build the transcontinental railroad through the desert, over the Rockies and Sierra Nevadas, though territory of hostile armed Indians and while the War Between the States was raging back East?
And California will have 500 miles done by 2029? I'll be happy to do the title work for them that will take me until I retire by virtue of death by old age.
garage: "Wisconsin depends on the federal government. We would cease to exist without them."
LOL
Bask in the brilliance!
garage: "The idea that Walker made a principled decision that the federal government wouldn't come through on their promise is for really dumb people to believe."
"If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan. Period."
Wisconsin depends on the federal government. We would cease to exist without them. The idea that Walker made a principled decision that the federal government wouldn't come through on their promise is for really dumb people to believe.
I feel embarrassed for you after reading that.
When you are dependent on X in order to make ends meet, taking on new, permanent expenses under the assumption that X will cover them forever is insane.
Slightly less insane, but still far from rational, would be your suggestion that all funding from X be immediately returned even though the account books won't balance without it.
The intelligent option, which naturally is opposed by all left-wingers and much of the Right, is to take steps to achieve self-sufficiency. That means making smart investments, i.e. ones with positive rates of return, i.e. not passenger rail.
And California will have 500 miles done by 2029?
California won't have anywhere near that much done. They will still be in court trying to acquire the land in 2029.
Revenant (to garage): "I feel embarrassed for you after reading that"
You must remember that garage is the rocket scientist who thought that California had really, seriously, this time for sure, balanced it's budget.
He wanted so to believe.
It was almost adorable to see that level of naivete...until you remembered that garage is ostensibly an adult.
It's the illegal aliens (aka Obama's Dreamers), right, Brown? Neither a willingness to assimilate nor an opportunity to integrate. It seems that Obamacare was insufficient to carry the load nor appease the masses. You need another revenue/life stream and a means to redistribute the diverse, concentrated populations. Perhaps you should add more Planned Parenthood to ensure equal access, thereby increasing taxable assets, and reducing the problem set. Good luck!
Wuthizname said:
"Wisconsin depends on the federal government. We would cease to exist without them."
Yet at any time two thirds of the states could hold a constitutional convention and vote the federal government out of existence! And the Feds cannot unmake or make a state!
(check the dox. The feds can only admit states to the union, not create them or uncreate them).
Liberals have odd ideas about the federal government. That is what makes them statists.
As for the fickle environmentalists, purchase your indulges with Gore et al (and perhaps Pope et al); shift recovery and manufacturing to, say, China, out-of-sight and out-of-mind; then corrupt the water, land, air, and creatures following an officially sanctioned pro-choice policy. Show them the GREEN!
Referring to 300 mph bullet trains as "choo choo" reveals something deficient in the mind of the person making the reference.
I love how all of a sudden the obsessive insta-pundits of Althouse become transportation experts when the topic of HSR rears its oncoming headlights into the vast void of interesting topics here.
300 mph bullet trains
KPH, not MPH.
Sorry to interrupt your little "man y'all are ignorant" spiel to explain the difference between metric and English units. Please continue.
The Shanghai malev has top speeds of 430 kph, so converting that to mph is something even a squeaky shit-for-brains like yourself should be able to do.
That's fascinating, R&B, but the train that was called "a choo-choo train" was the California high-speed rail system, which has a proposed top speed of around 300kph.
Its actual speed will be more like 80mph, of course, since it has to slow down for residential areas and frequent stops.
Revenant: "Its actual speed will be more like 80mph, of course, since it has to slow down for residential areas and frequent stops"
I believe 80mph-100mph is the estimated projected average mph over the course of a trip from LA to SF due to slow downs for residential areas and stops.
So, all we have to do is spend 68 Billion (initial estimate ha ha ha and not counting on-going maintenance and inevitable "strike" costs) to obtain a means of travel that will only take 3 to 4 times as long as flying.
This is considered by some morons to be a really great and cool deal.
Surprisingly, there are not an insignificant number of those on the left who recognize the real constraints here.
Credit to The Atlantic for even raising some of these concerns:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/08/high-speed-rail-more-questions/379046/
Leave it to Revenant to make unassailable assertions based on propositions and barely funded projects, rather than on the science of what the technology he criticizes is actually capable.
This is the reason that glibs don't make policy. They just prevent everyone else from doing so.
But why stop in America? I say you need to go to China and Japan and get them to tear down these rails! Obviously the injustice of what they've done with their transport is much further along, and therefore that much more in need of being fought against. Oh, the humanity!
Rhythm and Balls: "Leave it to Revenant to make unassailable assertions based on propositions and barely funded projects, ...."
It's hard to come up with a reasonable estimate with only a paltry $4 Billion (thus far).
I mean, if we could just get it to $25Billion, THEN we could give you some really accurate numbers on the viability of this project!
Of course, if you would just give us the whole $68 Billion (or $80 Billion or $100 Billion (both previous estimates)) then we could deliver it to you for cheap!!
Oh yeah. The viability of magnets to create movement from opposite poles. Really untested stuff.
At least Bitchmo made it a little farther academically than Bitchtits Mahal.
Both are utter retards of course, but as far as I know only one of them is obese.
So, all we have to do is spend 68 Billion (initial estimate ha ha ha and not counting on-going maintenance and inevitable "strike" costs) to obtain a means of travel that will only take 3 to 4 times as long as flying.
Yep. $2000 in additional debt for every man, woman, and child in California so yuppies can have a third way of travelling between our major cities.
The only bright spot is that it'll never actually come to that. What will actually be built is a short "high speed rail" connecting two desert cities. The connections to LA and the bay area will never happen -- not in a hundred years. The line has trouble maintaining majority support *now*, before thousands of middle-class people start seeing their homes bulldozed for this project.
"Why is the party of the future so damned obsessed with trains, anyway?"
Because trains can be controlled easier than personal cars. People have to go where they tell you to go. It makes central planning easier, and the Party of the Future is committed to central planing of everything -- where you live, what job you have, how many kids you have, what you eat, the number of times that you flush your toilet, the amount of CO2 you consume and produce.
In the future there will be no freedom.
Terry prefers the TSA and NHTSA tell him where to go. And rummage through his belongings. And prevent a competing industry that doesn't require 60 - 120 minute check-in/security measures from emerging. Yup, that's freedom in Terry's tiny world.
Rhythm and Balls: "Terry prefers the TSA and NHTSA tell him where to go."
LOL
R&B's pretends TSA won't be hanging around the maglev train stations as well as airports.
That's nice.
Would you like some cookies and milk now?
Rhythm and Balls: "Oh yeah. The viability of magnets to create movement from opposite poles. Really untested stuff."
Hmmm, a nice little strawman tossed in there. And written in a way as to imply someone else actually made the assertion.
Quite similar to the madisonfella "technique".
Coincidental, I'm quite sure.
Revenant: "The connections to LA and the bay area will never happen -- not in a hundred years. The line has trouble maintaining majority support *now*, before thousands of middle-class people start seeing their homes bulldozed for this project."
I can't wait to see all those silicon valley types just lining up to have their property and homes "eminent domain-ed" for the greater good.
It will be just like wind farms proposed off Hyannisport and the Kennedy's.
Oh no, NIMBY!! Which is strange, since liberals have recently claimed that NIMBYism is just a "conservative thang". Are the Kennedy's now conservative?
Oh yes! The viability of the technology the money is actually being used to fund is such a straw man!
I'm so sorry to confuse you by reminding you of the actual point.
garage mahal said...
But with HSR and Medicaid, it's a choice. And he can say no.
Yep, because this dumb sap thinks he can be president.
1/8/15, 3:16 PM
Why not? Look at the moron who is currently president. And vice president. Now thanks to the Democrats you can have two digit IQ's and be considered for the job by the Democrat voters.
Rhythm and Balls wrote:
"Terry prefers the TSA and NHTSA tell him where to go."
I live on the Big Island of Hawaii. No trains. No interstates. No regular ship transportation between islands or to the mainland.
When an airline lockdown happens (as on 9/11 and a few days afterward), nobody goes anywhere.
The light rail they are building on Honolulu will cost at least $5000 per resident. For an island that is about 20x30 miles.
But this project--taking you from one city where you'd need a car to several other cities where you'd need a car, taking only slightly less time than driving the whole way would--is a perfect example of poorly thought out rail.
Of course, if Americans were willing to walk more than 50 yards after exiting a conveyance, rail might be a possibility, at least in some parts of the country. Rail stations in Germany aren't located in city centers, and it's nothing to have a mile walk or more before getting out of the carriage.
Rhythm and Balls: "Terry prefers the TSA and NHTSA tell him where to go."
LOL
R&B's pretends TSA won't be hanging around the maglev train stations as well as airports.
That's nice.
Would you like some cookies and milk now?
Laughing at your own retardation is a hell of a way to go through life, DRAGON!
It takes some real stupidity to not realize that air travel is congested, and a greater security threat. But yes, let's equate "hanging around the stations" with the 60 - 120 minute clearance delays of the more congested mode of transportation.
You really do amuse yourself something awful. You must be a real hoot on dates, laughing at your own jokes, smelling your own farts, eating your own boogers, etc.
I live on the Big Island of Hawaii. No trains. No interstates. No regular ship transportation between islands or to the mainland.
All the more reason to accept that California's needs and Hawaii's needs are different. I thought you conservatives were about local/state control? Or is that just when too many libertarians have left the party?
Rhythm and Balls: "Oh yes! The viability of the technology the money is actually being used to fund is such a straw man!"
Hmmm, a patented madisonfella-like double-down on the strawman.
You clearly think you've found something there. Interesting.
You've probably missed the entire point of the thread regarding trade-offs and comparisons on alternate modes of travel.
One wonders just how many of posts on this thread addressed supposed non-viability of the technology proposed?
I'll go out on a limb and say=2. And both of them are yours.
But do continue slaying those men of straw. I can't wait to see what you conjure up next!
R&B's: "It takes some real stupidity to not realize that air travel is congested, and a greater security threat."
Hmmmmm, another strawman.
You are rolling!
I'll bet you can do better than that! Go for it!
cubanbob wrote-
"And vice president."
If any republican is as stupid as Biden no one will vote for him, not even the other republicans. Huckabee is an effin' genius compared to Biden. The smartest move Biden ever made was to register as democrat in 1963. Well, that and getting five draft deferments in the '60s.
It's funny that he doesn't get asked about those deferments.
"It takes some real stupidity to not realize that air travel is congested, and a greater security threat."
Silly Drago. The choo-choo won't be a security threat because it will be empty.
It's only a straw man if you forgot your own point about TSA having an interest in trains, to which it was a direct response. (The magnitude of TSA intrusion and inconvenience actually matters to travelers, butthole). But go ahead and keep rolling in your own irrelevance.
You dildos remind me of when Ali G asked about why terrorists don't try to hijack trains.
R&B, where does your expertise on the needs of Cali come from?
California taxpayers aren't paying for their boondoggle rail system. All Americans are, just like they are paying for the LR boondoggle on Oahu.
You can't be suggesting that the US taxpayer should simply accept what the California politicians say when they want our money . . .
Drago, your butthole doesn't taste nearly as good as you think it does.
I'm pretty unsurprised that your profession is "consulting." Those who can't do,…. It's like the ultimate peanut gallery of a career.
Rhythm and Balls: "It's only a straw man if you forgot your own point about TSA having an interest in trains, to which it was a direct response."
I'll go out on another limb and guess that there has only been 1 post on this thread which dealt with a comparison of threats to security between airports and maglev train stations.
And that 1 post would, of course, once again, be yours.
A triple down on the strawmen. Very, very madisonfella-like.
Terry: "R&B, where does your expertise on the needs of Cali come from?"
R&B's has no relevant California or technical expertise as is quite manifest at this point.
What he/she most likely does have is a degree in education or one of the fake social/political "sciences".
R&B's: "I'm pretty unsurprised that your profession is "consulting." Those who can't do,…. It's like the ultimate peanut gallery of a career."
That's it? Really? That's the extent of your heckling capability?
It begs the question: Where do you normally converse with others where lame schtick like that proves effective?
It's near Democrat Underground-level "quality".
Drago, The Consultant, has now taken to an Abbott and Costello Who's on First analysis of how conversations work.
I'm glad to know he has no real points of his own, which is why he talks for a living.
Think of him as a talk-radio show host, but without the talent, the entertainment value, or the charisma. And nowhere near the money. Just a guy with a keyboard stuck in his throat and a mouth big enough to accommodate it.
LOL
P.S. Everything he pretends to speculate about me is nonsense. But if it weren't for his need to pull shit out of his ass he would lose any sense of his own existence.
It begs the question: Where do you normally converse with others where lame schtick like that proves effective?
It's near Democrat Underground-level "quality".
That's it? Really? That's the extent of your heckling capability?
Try to be a less derivative douchebag, Drago. I know it's all you got, but it's stale. As are you.
"High speed" rail is impossible. Especially across two mountain ranges. And hundreds of earthquake faults.
The key to making rail "high speed" is not to have to slow down for stations very often.
This is entirely a costly boondoggle to divert taxpayer dollars to politicians and unions.
Rhythm and Balls said...
"You dildos remind me of when Ali G asked about why terrorists don't try to hijack trains. "
Silly jackass; nobody HIJACKS trains. They just BOMB them. MUCH safer.
Well, now that we have established beyond a doubt the lack of R&B's technical and CA-knowledge bona fides, we can return to the specifics about this latest leftist public works dream (and taxpayer nightmare).
And not a moment too soon. I thought R&B's was going to go Full-Socrates and talk about boogers again.
Riveting stuff.
Ken Mitchell: "Silly jackass; nobody HIJACKS trains. They just BOMB them. MUCH safer."
And they have hundreds of miles of track to work with.
Someone needs to ask Rush Limbaugh for his brain back.
Ken Mitchell: "Silly jackass; nobody HIJACKS trains. They just BOMB them. MUCH safer."
And they have hundreds of miles of track to work with.
Quick. Someone tell AMTRACK that they don't have enough rail to get bombed as much as those much greater miles of roads constantly do.
All this reveals how stupid and scared conservatives are. There is nothing they won't find a way to fear, as long as they're not used to it. Everything they have no experience with, they instinctively fear. And try to scare others about. It's why their brains on permanent paralysis mode.
Look R&B, we get it.
There is no net positive business case (from a profitability or public use perspective) for CA's rail project. Yet you really really feel like you have to win. Somehow. Someway.
So you flail around desperately looking for that angle, that dimension where you think you gain a rhetorical advantage.
It's just not there.
I can't wait to see all those silicon valley types just lining up to have their property and homes "eminent domain-ed" for the greater good.
If you ever needed a good example of the mentality that brought us this latest waste of borrowed money, pause to consider that even though roughly half of Californians support building the train, more than half say they would still drive or fly if they had to travel between LA and SF.
I believe there was an Onion article along these lines a few years ago. Something like "most Americans favor mass transportation for other people".
I would use this train ALL THE TIME if they ever build it. they never finished BART according to what it was supposed to be, but I certainly used it. CA desperately needs transportation infrastructure upgrades in all areas to handle the insane population growth. It's getting uglier by the year.
And no, I don't know what one I prefer - at all. When I'm in one, I miss the other. Some ppl try and solve this by moving to Santa Barbara, but that is missing the tech/ entertainment industries. I suppose I prefer NoCal now, but for various reasons, here I am in SoCal. I have a lot of family/friends up there as well.
It was no big to shuttle between the two before security measures added a full hour to flight time.
A basically liberal project is being run through areas with diametrically opposed politics and priorities in an effort to placate by throwing money and jobs to those areas, in addition to more pragmatic reasons. I have heard both pro and con, with the CON coming from a guy in those areas and the PRO coming from a guy at the end points, so it's not politically efficient at the very least.
Also the initial funding was approved in the CA proposition system directly by the voters. I see the end date is 15 years from now, so Brown will likely be dead as will many of those voters.
At the end of the day there is a desire to know, construct, build and plan a system which forces everyone onto that system that drives almost every person I've spoken with about the trains/light-rail/green buses/transit here in Seattle.
Common sense, basic economics, cost per rider, bad laws, bad incentives, union control and corruption enter into the debate later, and in many cases, not at all.
This is a place where people take their progressive politics regularly to the level of belief and belonging, tribal in-group/out-group loyalty tests and conventional wisdom. Such hare-brained schemes for the public monies is all many of them have got...
Wisconsin depends on the federal government. We would cease to exist without them.
Oh. Man. That's good. You've really showcased your talent on this thread.
Rhythm and Balls said...
Referring to 300 mph bullet trains as "choo choo" reveals something deficient in the mind of the person making the reference.
I love how all of a sudden the obsessive insta-pundits of Althouse become transportation experts when the topic of HSR rears its oncoming headlights into the vast void of interesting topics here.
Not a transportation expert, but it doesn't take an expert to understand that the numbers don't jibe.
That tax money could be better spent improving other transportation infrastructure.
"it was about screwing over parts of the state they don't like, that don't vote for them, and who they do not want to see prosper."
It's bad practice to assume that everybody else shares your political motives, GM.
Lets review this, R&B.
We've established that this project will never be profitable. And by profitable I mean able to operate on its own without taxpayer funding.
We have established this project doesn't break any new ground technologically. It relys on existing technology.
So what's the point. And by point I mean what is the economic reasoning for this thing to go forward?
Unless your point is that it stands to create thousands of democrat voters who's jobs depend on the democrat donators who will build it, and more democrat voters who will work for it. All at the taxpayers expense.
garage mahal said 1/8/15, 10:57 AM …
No, it was about screwing over parts of the state they don't like, that don't vote for them, and who they do not want to see prosper.
garage mahal said 1/8/15, 10:43 AM …
The 810 million… would have paid for upgrades for the MKE-Chicago line. Walker hilariously asked the feds for 150 million for that, and of course was turned down. Now we're on the hook.
We can only assume Walker was turned down because Obama and the feds are all about screwing over those they don't like and do not want to see those people prosper.
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