January 2, 2015

Do the elements of wrongness here add up to right?



Click the speaker icon in the lower right corner to hear "no means no" to the tune of that stereotypical Native American "warchant."

"Several Oregon players are facing team discipline after celebrating their win in the Rose Bowl Game presented by Northwestern Mutual by apparently mocking Florida State quarterback Jameis Winston and allegations of sexual assault that have followed the 2013 Heisman Trophy winner the past two years."

I guess this is bad sportsmanship — taunting or gloating or whatever. But I've had it with this Indian war chant. Now, you might think the Florida State Seminoles have a deal with the Seminole Indians about the name Seminole, but
The agreement is with the Florida Seminole Tribal Council and not the Seminole Nation. The majority of Seminoles don’t even live in Florida. They live in Oklahoma, one of the fruits of the Seminole Wars, the Indian Removal Act and The Trail of Tears. These Oklahoma Seminoles—who, remember, are the majority—oppose the name....

[T[he Florida Seminole Tribal Council... is the owner of a series of luxury casino hotels throughout the state where the Seminole “brand” is prominently on display.... For the wealthy and powerful Florida Seminole tribal leaders, the cultural elevation of the football program is a part of their extremely lucrative gaming operation. Defending the school’s use of the name is about defending its brand....
And whatever Seminoles think of the football use of the name "Seminole," that "war chant" tune is not unique to Seminoles. I believe it's no more specific and authentic than "woo woo" and "ugg." So I don't like that war chant. It's just bad and embarrassing. Yeah, I know the school loves its tradition and it gets the fans fired up, but I'm not a fan, and I don't like it.

Add "no means no." This is a noncontroversial proposition. Of course, no means no! We're not getting into the more complicated territory of when yes might also mean no or even where failure to say yes might mean no. No means no. The reference is to an accusation against FSU's star player. I don't know the details there, but the Ducks didn't chant "Winston is a rapist," only the simple truism "no means no." And they've repurposed a chant that shouldn't be chanted in the first place, but that was chanted, chanted against them for hours.

My instinct is to approve. Am I wrong?

106 comments:

Saint Croix said...

Of course, no means no! We're not getting into the more complicated territory of when yes might also mean no or even where failure to say yes might mean no. No means no.

We can deconstruct language so that no sometimes means yes, or yes sometimes means no. Or we can be rigorous about language, and no always means no, and yes always means yes.

But to create a society where no always means no and yes might mean no, too, is an insane proposition. I am rather shocked that Althouse is this hostile to sex, and this willing to have every sexual act defined as potential rape. Bizarre.

Meade said...

No, you're not wrong. Elements of wrongness means elements of wrongness.

Tank said...

Normally, taunting a team that you just crushed on the field is low class taunting and bad sportsmanship.

But, as the taunters appear to be 100% diverse, they get the "get out of jail free" card, and so it's ok.

Unless Winston is gay or related to Elizabeth Warren. Then it is taunting.

I can't keep track.

Saint Croix said...

I think too that feminists believe that this standard will only be applied to men. They do not intend for women to be sentenced to prison as rapists because it turns out that yes means no.

Ann Althouse said...

@Saint Croix

I said I wasn't even getting into that territory. Apparently, it's so controversial that even to say you're not talking about it is to have taken enough of a position to stir up the controversy.

bleh said...

I have no idea what your point is, or if there's even a point to be made. You dislike the war chant and you think "no means no" is valid. You don't much care about the taunting.

These are three distinct issues. You haven't really connected them in a compelling way with this post.

traditionalguy said...

To the victors go the spoils. The idea that taunting the defeated foe in fun is a wrongful act is a ridiculous/ absurd third generation rule to enforce a silly second generation fighting rule from the nonsense that football is not a fight nd is played only by gentlemen.

Saint Croix said...

I said I wasn't even getting into that territory.

You're attempting to wall off your "no means no" posts from your "yes means no" posts? That will work swell, like the New York Times wall or the Berlin wall.

Christy said...

What BDNYC said.

ganderson said...

I'm torn- Jameis Winston's a punk- and for the purposes of my own delusions I'm going to pretend that the Ducks are comprised entirely of Eagle Scouts, who are on the dean's list- the academic one, not Dean Wormer's Double Secret Probation, and candidates for Rhodes Scholarships. If I were the Ducks' coach (and only lack of ambition and lack of even the most fundamental idea of how to coach a football team prevents me from being so) I'd stage a publicity stunt wherein Marcus Mariota BUYS some crab legs at a local grocery store.
All that said, it IS bad sportsmanship, but I kinda like it in spite of myself.

Lyle said...

There is nothing wrong with the warchant.

garage mahal said...

I approve.

And this Vine is just perfect.

Xmas said...

Wow, there are way to many layers to this onion.

I'm going to go with this: It's nice to see student-athletes with a firm grasp of "No Means No".

traditionalguy said...

I would give him the benefit of the doubt presume it meant No seafood Shoplifting

Ann Althouse said...

"These are three distinct issues. You haven't really connected them in a compelling way with this post."

The post title asks the question. The post ends with my saying my instinct is to approve.

Big Mike said...

Yeah, I know the school loves its tradition and it gets the fans fired up, but I'm not a fan, and I don't like it.

And that matters because why? I don't like "On Wisconsin." Is my personal distaste enough to require that a certain flea-bitten university in Madison to get a new fight song?

That's ever the mantra of the 21st century liberal: screw with people who aren't harming you but seem to be having some fun. How about if you learn to live in a world that has things you don't like?

This is a noncontroversial proposition. Of course, no means no!

Well, I can recall some girlfriends back in the late 1960's and early 1970's who'd giggle a "no" or "we shouldn't be doing this" as they lifted their arms to make it easier to get their sweaters off, leaned forward so I could reach the hook on their bra, and lifted their hips so I could pull down their jeans.

Are the young women of today much different? I wonder.

Ann Althouse said...

I'm not attempting to convince anybody of anything, just inviting you to react, perhaps revealing your instinctive response the way I did.

I think it's good for successful, highly attractive male athletes to use the "no means no" slogan.

But at some point, it's taunting. (How wrong is taunting in sports?)

And I don't think it's right for Native Americans to get appropriated into this, but mocking the chant is, at some level, a criticism of FSU for using the chant, and I join that criticism.

Ann Althouse said...

"And this Vine is just perfect."

LOL, yeah.

That was really funny in the original form too.

Ann Althouse said...

The war chant IS a taunt, and it goes on through the whole game, so to repurpose it in the end seems good.

ganderson said...

I'd also add that the perfesser's point about the Seminoles is an interesting one- my guess is that the Seminoles in OK don't like the name more because of an allegiance to U of Oklahoma or Oklahoma State than any great moral principle. The reason that the "Team Formerly Known as the Fighting Sioux" had to give up their nickname is that there were just too many tribal chief and elders to bribe.

"We didn't stop 'till we got to Big Cypress
Wandered in to the Legion Hall.
The sign outside said 'Seminole Bingo'
I fell in love with the ping-pong ball

And the SEC is far behind
I'm down in the swamp with the gators and flamingos
a long way from Liechtenstein
I'm a junk-bond king playin' Seminole Bingo"

MadisonMan said...

Much ado about nothing. Really, if FSU didn't want to be mocked about losing, they should have won.

So Oregon (State?) revealed themselves to be non-gracious in winning. Meh.

garage: that is **awesome!**

Jason said...

Why so crabby?

ganderson said...

:)

n.n said...

Activism here, there, everywhere.

I think every meeting of competing interests should require a pow wow, where each competitor will present their leverage. This should be sufficient to sustain a truce between warring factions. Perhaps they can take a proactive step, and settle their differences on a blog before the meeting. The faction with the greatest leverage gains momentum. While the other faction(s) will resign themselves to quietly stew until the next blog entry.

n.n said...

The permutations of Yes means yes; yes means no; and no means no; is a tenet of a pro-choice or selective religion. It's a principle for a double-standard that's defended without a defense. It's an assertion, really. Chaotic and unpredictable outside of an indefinitely constrained domain in space and time.

JSD said...

Bad sportsmanship goes part and parcel with today’s sporting spectacles. I like watching the games, but I don’t expect anything more.

There was an article about Florida State football recruits never actually going to see the FSU campus in Tallahassee. Instead recruiting visits consisted of weekend partying at cross town Florida A&M fraternity houses, where the FSU football “student athletes” spend most of their time.

Bob R said...

I think that taunting an opponent you just humiliated on the field is wrong unless you do it in the funniest way possible. This is hilarious. Go Ducks!

JAORE said...

First things first. Great vine, Grage. I'm stealing the crap out of that.

Secondly the Florida Seminoles may be outnumbered by the Oakies, but they are the ones that remain on original tribal land. So who is the "real" voice of the tribe? Far beyond my pay grade, but.. I used to have to coordinate with tribes on issues in Alabama. There were 17 or so with historic connections. There was one that was federally recognized and still had tribal lands in the state. Push come to shove the locals held the trump card.

Original Mike said...

"To the victors go the spoils. The idea that taunting the defeated foe in fun is a wrongful act is a ridiculous/ absurd..."

Classless.

Krumhorn said...

I don't see the problem with the war chant. That's just more aggrievement crapola. They can call themselves the Krumhorns and make very nasal and reedy sounds for all I care.

I do see a problem with players taunting other players. It IS bad sportsmanship and they should be disciplined.

- Krumhorn

mikee said...

If we're getting into collegiate football activities outside the field boundaries:

The University of Texas fans ring cow bells all damn game, every damn game. This is the only example ever recorded of there being too much cowbell, rather than not enough cowbell, in the history of the world.

Tank said...

Althouse

But at some point, it's taunting. (How wrong is taunting in sports?)

Once upon a time, taunting was wrong. End of story. Your Mom would say she was ashamed of you, and your Dad would beat the crap out of you, and your Coach would put you on the bench. And you would remember and not do it again.

But that was long ago in a different America. Now it's ok to taunt your opponent before, during and after the game. What has changed?

Tank said...

For you youngsters, here's what Oregon would have done in the olden days:

On themselves: we just did the best we could and played hard and it worked out.

On the other team: they fought like hell and were a worthy opponent.

etbass said...

The best thing about the slaughter by Oregon is that it stilled that infernal chant in the matter part of the game.

wildswan said...

Chanting at sports events now has seven layers of ambiguity due to inward creep from external events. Next the Feds will be searching crowds on video for Title IX / Title X violations. But maybe those guys just had Ford Thunderbird turn signals stuck in their arms from an unknown government program which began 50 years ago.

tim maguire said...

The video's pretty funny, it's a rejection of the values of the Enlightenment to claim that the players should be disciplined for that, the tomahawk chant is cool, and the Oklahoma Seminoles can go pound salt, they don't own the word "Seminole" and we do society no favors when we pretend otherwise.

Did I leave anything out?

Roughcoat said...

@traditionalguy:

John R. Tunis would not approve.

Saint Croix said...

Rape is a horrific crime, a horrible crime of violence. I feel obliged to say this, to remind myself and the world of this, because feminism is in the process of turning rape into a joke.

A taunt is a joke. They are laughing about a rape, okay? You can't imagine people doing this about murder. "Thou shalt not kill! Thou shalt not kill!" The fact that this feminist slogan is used in a joking matter should wake feminists up to what they are doing to the crime of rape.

These boys are taunting another boy that he has gotten into trouble with the feminist authorities. They are mocking him. But they are not serious about the crime of rape. Our culture is not serious about it.

We used to execute people for rape.

Today it's word games and semantics and feminist bullshit. Academic bullshit. These kids know it, that's why they are not serious about rape. It is why they are mocking another boy with this feminist taunt. It's a joke. Feminism has made it into a joke.

I cannot imagine a bizarre future where our chant becomes "Yes means no! Yes means no!" But as feminism goes further and further down this road of semantic bullshit and using rape to win political arguments--over abortion, over pornography, whatever the feminist want is, often just to shut men up--as you debase and debauch the crime of rape to where the word itself becomes a joke (like "Communist" or "racist"), I wish you would stop and think about what you are doing.

Joseph Blieu said...

I have long been concerned about the UW Madison sports promotion program. Although Badgers are not Indians they are Native Americans. The iconic representation of Mr. Bucky Badger portrays an arrogant, smirking, male swaggering through life secure in his privilege and superiority. A little humility perhaps? Not on the lilly white grounds, white as the iconic snows of the icy state, people, and hearts of Wisconsin.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Ann Althouse said...My instinct is to approve. Am I wrong?

Well your judgement that it's ok for Oregon to appropriate the war chant you think it's not ok for FL State to have appropriated from the Seminole tribe (or retconned to them) is a bit inconsisent but I'm not sure if that makes it wrong to you--maybe you're just apply an inconsistent standard based on whether you like or dislike something. Most people probably do exactly that most of the time; unless you consider mood affiliation a fallacy I suppose you're not wrong.

Do you think, though, that chanting "no means no" with the purpose of taunting a defeated opponent actually furthers the cause of those who care about the issue of sexual assualt on campus, or is it more likely that using that chant as a convenient cudgel is a symptom of the politicization of even noncontroversial propositions in that realm? Put another way do you think the players chanting "no means no" really beleive that or care about the issue of consent (and campus sexual assault, etc), and if not does their chanting it help those people who actually do care?

[Side question: do you trust the Nation to support judgements on whether something is or is not racist?]

Personally I don't like taunting and I don't like Winston. I'm not outraged or anything close to that, but it makes sense for the Oregon team to discipline players for unsportsmanlike behavior that's broadcast and could reflect badly on their team.

rhhardin said...

This is a noncontroversial proposition. Of course, no means no!

It's not a tautology. The first no is taken broadly, the second no is taken narrowly.

The doctrine is that all no's count as the specific no, which is taken as what the word really means.

This is the right handle to take hold of all no's, it says.

Expat(ish) said...

These delicate flowers wouldn't last log at a basketball game at Cameron. (That's at Duke, k?)

NCSU kid steals a pizza, gets called on court for the opening tip, ten minute delay to clean hundreds of pizza boxes off the court. (A few had old 'zar in them.)

Carolina player by the name of J. R. Reid, notoriously a bad student, greeted with chants of "I cain't read!"

Wake players under the famous (and much loved) Lefty heckled with "What does he do with your right hand?"

And so it goes.

_XC

Anthony said...

I tried looking up the origin of that whole "war chant" melody and the drum beat, but couldn't find anything really definitive. I recall Althouse linked to something a couple of years ago that described the origins of the little melody that signifies "asian" or maybe just Japanese (maybe this NPR one).

I'm guessing it was an old Hollywood cliche.

William said...

There's a difference between taunting a rape victim and taunting a rapist. Look up Winston's history is you want to review a truly despicable instance of taunting.

trumpintroublenow said...

I wanted Florida State to lose just because I didn't want to hear that noise 500 times in the championship game. Almost every play.

And we get Oregon's great uniforms to boot. Should be a great game.

Urban Meyer said the Wisconsin win over Auburn was huge for the confidence of his team given they beat Wis 59-0 last week.

David-2 said...

I was initially amazed that the reporter of this article was so indoctrinated with branding identity that he felt compelled to identify the game the "Rose Bowl Game presented by Northwestern Mutual".

But then I went to Wikipedia here and found out that that's the official name of the game!

-- David-presented by American Honda-2

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...


If you really want to get excited about college football, try to imagine how many of those 'chanters', student-athletes all, couldn't even pass a standard GED exam.

There's your scandal. Everything else is just "Look! There's a squirrel!"

And you know it.

ganderson said...

Of course I know it- I choose (in a very hypocritical manner) to ignore it!

Howard said...

The bigger point is with the new playoff system, the better Big Ten and Pac 12 teams have a good shot at ending the contrived domination of BCS by the SEC (I know Florida is ACC).

Because these mostly former slave states refuse to play tough opponents and they have the worlds largest chip on their collective shoulders, it will be nice seeing the best team being crowned BCS Champ for once.

For the boyscouts who pine for the good days of the 1950's based on watching reuns of Father Knows Best and Leave it to Beaver: Sports has never been so sportsmanlike than this modern era.

Tank is sending a rhetorical dog whistle that laments what has changed is the dominant colour of the players bringing gangsta lean to college football.
Diamond in the Back

Titus said...

I am just happy that all the southern teams lost yesterday!

Titus said...

The south which offers the country nothing, always gloated about their 15th tier colleges sports programs.

Not anymore!

Go Wisconsin, MSU, OSU and Oregon!!!!!

Po Bama, Auburn, Baylor and FSU.

Christopher said...

Does the context of the chant trivialize the alleged rape by reducing it to a subject for gloating? It hardly seems like the Ducks players are leveling genuine protest toward Winston/FSU, but rather seizing upon the opportunity to pile on someone they just walloped in a game. In that way it seems to me that you could argue that the chant is actually disrespectful to Winston's alleged victim.

Big Mike said...

@Howard, point of information. Florida and Florida State are different universities. Florida State is in the ACC and got its butt kicked yesterday. Florida is in the SEC and is playing tomorrow in a lesser bowl game.

Anonymous said...

Yes, you're wrong. Winners should be gracious.

traditionalguy said...

A war dance chant and a chop is nothing serious for tribes to feel badly about their old lifestyles being taunted.

Their serious complaint is the ornery whites stopped their lifestyle of raids that killed any captive men, not killed by arrows and scalping, by slow fire tortures and skinning alive and raped the women and females to make them into slaves for life, unless they were babies or old folks which were quickly murdered for sport so as not to be a burden on the fast moving band.

furious_a said...

"When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before."

--Tom Landry

furious_a said...

NCSU kid steals a pizza, gets called on court for the opening tip, ten minute delay to clean hundreds of pizza boxes off the court.

Chris Shackleford of NCSU, alleged to have broken into another NCSU student's car, took the floor in Cameron, greeted with signs reading HEY KRIS, CAN YOU SPELL 'KAR STEREO?'.

Jupiter said...

Tank said...
"For you youngsters, here's what Oregon would have done in the olden days:

On themselves: we just did the best we could and played hard and it worked out.

On the other team: they fought like hell and were a worthy opponent."

Yes, and in those olden days, my friends and I would drive down to the Bay Area for the away games. We almost always lost, but that was OK.

Now I wouldn't drive across town to watch the thugs of Team Nike beat the chumps-of-the-week at Autzen. They have their nerve, citing someone else's criminal record.

furious_a said...

(How wrong is taunting in sports?)

You've obviously never played competitive sports, or you'd know that taunting invites retaliation, and retaliation results in, at best, ugly, bench-clearing brawls and, at worst, career-ending injuries.

virgil xenophon said...

I'm getting just a little sick of Althouse and other lefties talking about the sin of "appropriating" Indian symbols. Don't get me started Ann. ALL cultures "appropriate" things from other cultures. The State of Illinois is named for the Illini Indians. You up for renaming the state? Same for Utah being named for the Ute Indians, and Oklahoma itself being the Indian Word for "RedMan." Or INDIANA for example. Or Indianapolis? Or how about place names. Want to rename Seattle, Wash, named after Chief Seattle? Or how about the thousands of streams, rivers, lakes and mountains named for Indians/tribes? (e;g. Lake Huron)
Or how about the language.? Want to do away with our appropriation of all foreign words (e.g., of the Aztec word "chocolate" per chance?)

And as long as we're talking about "cultural misappropriation" I guess that means no Cello for Yo Yo Ma or pianos for Duke Ellington, Count Basie, etc. And no riding in or owning automobiles by anything other than white people, n'cest-ce pas? I can play this "improper cultural appropriation" game all day..

stan said...

Taunting is wrong. It shows immaturity, a lack of respect, a lack of appropriate humility, a lack of class. And it does escalate and increase the potential for brawls.

Throughout history, no didn't necessarily mean no. There are all kinds of ways to say no and they mean all kinds of different things. The feminist desire to punish and destroy is so strong that they want to change human understanding. We'll see if they succeed.

n.n said...

traditionalguy:

Ah, you reject the myth of the "noble savage". Perhaps in the exception, but in general, they were ruthless competitors. Most neither enjoyed nor applied the tempering attributes of Judeo-Christian religion or moral philosophy. Some even engaged in human sacrifice. Not unlike many modern people do today, but without the good grace of hiding their rituals in a private sanctuary.

dbp said...

When you shellac the other team that badly, the score should be taunt enough.

I don't have a problem with the war chant.

@Madisonman. The Ducks are University of Oregon. I am cheating somewhat since I attended a pac-10 (now 12, I know).

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

virgil xenophon said...
I guess that means no Cello for Yo Yo Ma or pianos for Duke Ellington, Count Basie, etc.


Of course both Duke and Count are white European terms, too, so what's up with that, bros?

And all this nonsense makes me madder than a midget with a Yo Yo.

virgil xenophon said...

@AA

PS: And while I'm warming to the subject, As an ex USAF fighter pilot I'll tell you that all use of squadron insignia is based upon those worthy of respect. There are three fighter squadrons with variants of New Guinea Headhunters as a comment on their martial qualities because that's where those squadrons were formed in WW II (And I can GUARANTEE that ALL SQ members were white) Or how about HMS ZULU, a WW II RN Destroyer. There have historically been three RN hulls by that name. Think they were so named out of disrespect? Or the first President of LSU, Gen William Tecumseh Sherman. Think his parents named him after that famous Indian warrior to shame their son--or to slime the Indian Chief? Get real kid..

HoodlumDoodlum said...

On second thought perhaps Prof. A is being entirely consistent, just with a nonobvious standard.

If Prof. A's rule is "I approve of bad behavior (including appropriation of things I may not favor or use of things I do favor in likely-disingenuous ways) is ok as long as the target of that behavior is bad." Thus Oregon appropriating the war chant (bad because the war chant is bad) is good because it's being done in a mocking way and the target is the FL State Seminoles (who use the chant), and the Oregon players' appropriation of "no means no" (bad because it politicizes a noncontroversial proposition and possibly trivializes a real problem/issue) is good because the target of that is somone accused of sexual assault or rape and rapists are bad.

"Bad behavior is ok when the target is sufficiently bad/worse" is a logically consistent position and certainly one with intuitive appeal. I'm not sure how Prof. A would like us to evaluate whether that position itself is wrong.

Skipper said...

Overanalysis, say I.

tim maguire said...

Jupiter said...
Tank said...
"For you youngsters, here's what Oregon would have done in the olden days:

On themselves: we just did the best we could and played hard and it worked out.

On the other team: they fought like hell and were a worthy opponent."

...

We almost always lost, but that was OK.


Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.

--Vince Lombardi

David said...

"These Oklahoma Seminoles—who, remember, are the majority—oppose the name...."

Perhaps. Or perhaps only their spokesnatives oppose. Or perhaps they would feel differently if they had a cut of the casino take.

Anyway, while I would not call it good clean fun, it's certainly within the bounds of usual harassment of an opponent. Eventually Winston will hear less of this (if he cleans up his act) but the "discipline" is ridiculous.

Jupiter said...

tim maguire said...
"Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.

--Vince Lombardi"

That was then, this is now.

Show me a winning college football team, and I'll show you a sorry collection of criminal losers.

Jupiter

David said...

As a puppy, I played youth hockey. Not like now with all the equipment but just kids with hockey sticks. We did have decent ice: the old Pittsburgh Garden, a creaky minor league hockey venue.

The other team's star was a kid named Peter Longnecker. He was pretty good. I was not a star on our team, but I played a good part of the time.

Peter and I had never liked each other. After the game was over (and we had won), I skated up to him and said "Good game, Pete." Pete preferred to be called Peter, and he did not like to lose. Therefore he smashed me in the face with his stick, knocking me down, opening two good cuts and spilling blood.

By the time I got up, Wally Rhodes, my friend and a very strong fellow, had punished Peter quite severely. I was grateful, because one on one Peter would have beaten the hell out of me.

There were adults there, but none intervened until Wally had finished his work. This was how bad sportsmanship was punished back in the day.

khesanh0802 said...

Thank you, Tank!

tim in vermont said...

I can't wrap my head around all of those issues, but they sure look happy.

cubanbob said...

The best way to deal with the left and their PC nonsense is to completely ignore as if they and their nonsense do not exist. Whenever they bring it to one's attention the correct response should be you must have me confused with someone who gives a crap. If you don't give a crap, act like you don't give a crap.

retired said...

There are a hundred things wrong with college sports. The indian thing is not one of them.
That said, the Oregon team's behavior is low class. But they were recruited to play football, nothing else.

retired said...

"I think every meeting of competing interests should require a pow wow, where each competitor will present their leverage. "

Brilliantly put as the truth and the better good have been trampled underfoot.

SteveR said...


"When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before."

--Tom Landry


actually Darrell K. Royal.

Rich B said...

These guys better beat Ohio State if they want to avoid the mother of all taunts.

JAORE said...

Does anyone think that THIS is what the U of Oregon wants people to be discussing today?

n.n said...

Red rover, red rover, send the alleged rapist right over.

Skeptical Voter said...

Harry Reid got all wee wee'd up (a "technical term" from the newly infantile Democrat discourse in Washington D.C.) over the NFL's Washington team calling itself "Redskins". I can't calculate how many high school and college teams have rushed away from Native American related team names or mascots, in a veritable orgy of political correctness. My high school team was named the "Matadors". I expect it will receive a complaint from the bullfighter's union any day now.

Don't those rednecks in Florida and in Atlanta (the Atlanta Braves also use this stupid tomahawk chop) get it? Didn't Harry send the memo?

The funny thing is that this tomahawk chop, the "woo woo" and the "Ugh Paleface" probably all came from the fevered imagination of a Jewish screenwriter for Hollywood cowboy and indian films in the 1930's. It's all about as authentic as "kosher" pork chops.

So okay this particular set of Oregon Ducks is graceless and tasteless in taunting Jameis Winston now "exonerated", although not necessarily innocent, of the claim of rape. (He's got some shoplifting arrests on his resume as well.)

Based on Jameis' own graceless and tasteless post game interview, I'm not going to weep much over this Duck debauchery.

Bob Ellison said...

Chants are the beginning of mob-work.

Francisco D said...

I expect a certain amount of clever childishness from college students (and athletes). After all, they will be adults soon and unable to do stupid things without sanction.

It's not a question of right or wrong. It's about having a kid's sense of humor. Let them be stupid and enjoy themselves.

Chuck said...

The 2015 Microaggression Bowl.

Chuck said...

The 2015 Microaggression Bowl.

Heartless Aztec said...

The Seminoles of Florida never surrendered, never gave in and slaughtered to the last man Major Dade's command a week before the Alamo. Brave bastards everyone of them. They stayed on the ancestral lands and to this day are unconquered. The ONLY native American tribe that can make that claim. They choose - not the Oklahoma tribe.

Heartless Aztec said...

Addendum - For what it's worth, though not germaine to the question (s) the Oklahoma Seminoles fought for the Confederacy.

Meade said...

"Microaggression Bowl."

Really. Especially that 39 points. Must've made those FSU players feel "invisible, exhausted, frustrated, powerless, emotionally detached, helpless or tense.[citation needed]"

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

furious_a said...

Chris Shackleford of NCSU, alleged to have broken into another NCSU student's car, took the floor in Cameron, greeted with signs reading HEY KRIS, CAN YOU SPELL 'KAR STEREO?'.

That was Chris Washburn. Also, didn't they throw LP's on the court that time?

Saint Croix said...

Look up Winston's history is you want to review a truly despicable instance of taunting.

Do you have a link?

I did google the rape allegation. Here is his statement about what happened.

Here is how the Nation writes about the case, and the New York Times.

I read these different accounts, and I see three possibilities.

1) he raped her
2) it was a horrible misunderstanding
3) she's lying in order to get a $7 million dollar payday

#2 is the nicest possibility. She was too drunk to consent, he didn't realize how drunk she was, she was objecting to having sex, he thought she was mad about the guys who kept walking in on them and videotaping the encounter. Later that night she got upset at what happened, and her friends convinced her to file rape charges.

He's not behaving like a rapist. For instance, he drives her home. That is not guilty knowledge. That's the sort of thing you do after you've had sex with a girl you like. I'm not sure why you would go anywhere with a man who raped you, but if you're so drunk that he is putting your clothes on for you, you might do that.

The NYT implies that her last drink was spiked with a roofie. I would think five mixed drinks would make you fairly intoxicated if you're 110 pounds (I'm guessing her weight). Especially if you're an inexperienced drinker (she was under the drinking age).

#1 would be hard to prove, as he has witnesses who are confirming his account. She doesn't have any witnesses. The NYT speaks of "bruises" but the police didn't photograph any bruises. She says he pinned down her arms. She doesn't actually say no, according to the NYT, but instead tried to push him away.

I find it suspicious that his friends erased the videotape. If you're innocent, that videotape would be very helpful, I would think. (The friend got in trouble for videotaping the encounter, so maybe that's why he erased it).

Her account now is that she is very clear on what happened. She was raped. And she's claiming that he was "violent." I feel like people are coaching him on what to say, and coaching her on what to say. I find her certainty that "I know what happened that night" to be at odds with her statement that she was blacking out and too intoxicated to consent. I find it weird to be so certain that everybody is lying, when you're intoxicated. But I understand the urge to have people believe you, and the urge to fill in the blank spots with what you think is truth.

I find the he said/she said aspect of these cases highly upsetting. I dislike the certainty of the reporters that a rape happened, the presumption of guilt and the demonization of a man. I dislike the feminist politics and the rape counselors who coach her on what to say and how to say it. I dislike the attorneys who are telling him what to say. And I dislike all the money stinking up the background of this case. And I get depressed that I don't know what happened.

Bob R said...

I have no idea what actual crimes Winston committed, but there is plenty of evidence that he believed (with great justification) that the FSU administration and Tallahassee police would cover up any that he chose to participate in. (If cops in Madison and Blacksburg are as corrupt as those in Tallahassee, they at FAR better at covering it up.)

Bob R said...
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Bob R said...

As far as the "taunting" goes, were the ducks performing for the cameras or the FSU bench. Big difference IMO

iowan2 said...

It's called character, standards, sportsmanship. All those things that dads taught their son's. Since the govt has decided that daycare is preferable to parenting. Single mothers are just as good as two parent families. Men are meaningless. Boys need to be tamed. This is the society we have created.

All of these things have created the society that gives footing and nourishment to this behavior.

Now the only thing to do is accept what you have created. Stop whining.

Bob R said...

For all of those whining about character and good sportsmanship, I have two words: Chuck Bednarik

virgil xenophon said...

@Bob R/

Wasn't that the hit that ended the carer of Frank Gifford? (he of the body laid out prone/prostrate on the ground.)

virgil xenophon said...

Bob R/

One of the most violent hits I ever witnessed was when Jim Taylor of the Packers and the Eagles' Bednarik hit head-on in the 57 (?) Championship game..

virgil xenophon said...

"career" viz "carer"-- Christ on a crutch..

Curious George said...

"virgil xenophon said...


Wasn't that the hit that ended the carer of Frank Gifford? (he of the body laid out prone/prostrate on the ground.)"

It was Gifford, but it didn't end his career. He retired briefly but did return to the NFL.

Titus said...

I love black cock and would do all of them.

I am a dinge queen.

tits.

Ken B said...

Dead wrong. Collective taunting isn't just directed at its obvious target, it is a way of enforcing solidarity. Everyone must treat him as guilty.

Howard said...

iowan2:

Nice subtle racist dog whistle. Tank, you need to pay attention to this lesson in plausible deniability.

Cheers

sdharms said...

Lets get exercised about shoplifting athletes, raping athletes, assaulting athletes... Let the coach deal with this as bad sportsmanship.
Frankly I am sick of the criminal athletes at all levels. Call them what they are - criminals - when they commit a crime. And call Jamis Winstons first name what it is -- evidence of illiteracy.

mgarbowski said...

"My instinct is to approve. Am I wrong?"

That depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

Saint Croix said...
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ken in tx said...

More than one Oklahoma tribe fought for the Confederacy. After all, They had kept slaves since forever, usually captives from other tribes. Because of this there are several historically black towns in Oklahoma, founded by freed slaves who took vantage of the '40 acres and a mule' offer made by the Freedman's Bureau during Reconstruction. The land was taken from tribal lands of Confederate allies.