When's the last time we elected a Midwesterner President? Ford doesn't count. He wasn't elected. You have to go back to Eisenhower and by the time we elected him, he wasn't just from Kansas anymore. He was from The World — The World War. And Kansas isn't even really the Midwest I think of as the Midwest. It's too far south. When's the last time we had a President from the North that is not the East?
Here's a list the home states of all the Presidents. I was surprised to see that I could have said we have a President right now from the Midwest! It never occurred to me — even as I rewatched that Bloggingheads segment — to think of Barack Obama as a Midwesterner, despite his connection to Illinois. His demeanor and his accent don't come across as midwestern. I think of him as coming from Hawaii.
I think we've never had a President from the North that is not the East. We've had a lot of Presidents from Ohio, and in that video clip, where I'm talking about Scott Walker's chances as a midwestern-style person, Bob Wright gets fixated on Ohio Governor Kasich, but Ohio isn't what I mean when I say Midwest. Note that I have lived in Wisconsin for the last 30 years, so I have an idea of the Midwest (and the North), but I consider myself from the "mid-Atlantic region," born and mostly raised in Delaware — just about exactly at the place where the Mason-Dixon line would cross if the mapmakers hadn't switched to using a compass when drawing the head on the little man called Delaware....
I am an insider/outsider in the Midwest. I think I get the cultural style that one sees in people like Tim Pawlenty and Scott Walker who seem too bland for outsiders. I mean that I also get The Not Getting of It. It might help that my mother and her family were from Michigan. Bob is from Texas, which is a big place, so maybe that's why he blithely groups Wisconsin with Ohio. He also sneered at the notion that Delaware is the South. I forgot to ply him with the question whether Texas is the South, but we were running out of time.
This post has become a grab bag of issues, so I'll load in one more, because news broke as I was writing this: "Lindsey Graham officially launches presidential exploratory committee." In the Bloggingheads clip embedded above, I talked about the problem of a Southern accent for a Republican candidate and say I think Americans have trouble with Lindsey Graham because of his accent. But the discussion of Midwesterners is not so much about the accent — though it is a problem if it's too exaggerated (as in the movie "Fargo") — it's the modest, low-key, seemingly bland style. But that problem could be an advantage. People might be in the mood for modest blandness. Of course, Scott Walker's opponents won't accept that picture of the man. They demonize him. How do you demonize modest blandness? Oh, it's an old game here intra-Wisconsin.
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102 comments:
Well technically speaking Hillary was born in Chicago so I suppose one can claim a Midwest background. Let's see if she can take Midwest elocution lessons while out on the stump in certain key Midwest areas.
Where in Michigan is your mother's family from?
Lindsey Graham?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Sorry.
Although I was born in the midwest (Indiana, on the Il. line near Chicago), I was raised in Texas. I consider Texas the boundary of the West and South. We have some of the manners of the South, but the expansiveness of the West. Texas is a lot more diverse than the South, particularly the Houston region which is considered the most diverse in the US by many measures, and second only to NYC in diversity of religion.
I grew up in the Chicago suburbs, and we were taught that the regional division of "the Midwest" included only the 5 states that made up the former "Northwestern Territories," namely: Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, and Wisconsin.
Kansas was part of "the Plains States. (Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas)" It seems that "the Plains" have been folded into "the Midwest" by our coastal media people anymore, and that "the Plains" has ceased to exist.
"Where in Michigan is your mother's family from?"
Ann Arbor.
Her father worked for the Ann Arbor newspaper.
There is an awful log of bigotry from both coasts to overcome. The oikophopes don't even know what oikophobia is either.
"cubanbob said...
Well technically speaking Hillary was born in Chicago so I suppose one can claim a Midwest background."
Really? I thought she was a southern Negro descendant of slaves?
Kansas IS the midwest. Wisconsin is the frozen north.
I think it would be cool if more regions than just New England had generally recognized and commonly used names.
I think the Plains States, The Old Northwest, The Pacific Northwest, Dixie, etc, would be nice names to still have around.
Someone from the Midwest could win the White House. But someone from the Midwest who constantly lies (Has anyone yet seen these "Russian documents" that backs up Walker's tall tale about Reagan firing the controllers? Did Scott Walker actually receive an endorsement from Right to Life this last election or not?) is going to have a much harder time of it. And it has nothing to do with his accent.
Walker bebefits from being a blank slate for most Americans that he can use to bring in a Reagan like Democrat cross over vote while his Southern Baptist preacher persona keeps the southern conservatives comfortable with him. Meanwhile, North middle is a big draw for the entitled winners of the War against the South (which was a very real war.)
I liked Jennifer Rubin at Right Turn blog at WAPO who wrote a good analysis of Walker's strengths.
It is interesting to hear how people from other areas of the US define regions such as the midwest, the northeast, the south, or the southwest. I live in Missouri, and do consider both Kansas and Missouri as the midwest. I'm not certain if I consider Wisconsin the midwest or north.
If Professor Althouse doesn't consider Kansas as the midwest, then what region would she consider it to part of?
I consider the south as roughly the former confederacy, but the borders can be a bit "fiddly"
I guess I would consider the midwest as Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North and South Dakota??
Apparently the US Census considers the midwest to consist of Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin.
and it is simply precious how Althouse ends her post by using the Nazi swastika once again. She really does seem to enjoy flying that flag as often as possible.
Even Eisenhower gets an asterisk as he was born in Texas. Hoover was born in Iowa, but raised on the West Coast. Harding was the last born and raised Midwesterner elected President.
Ronald Reagan was from Dixon, IL, rural western Illinois. That's where he grew up. He then went to Iowa. He's very midwestern. Not Californian.
The FLOTUS is a descendant of a white slave owner's family in Rex, Georgia, located 20 miles south of Atlanta.
"How do you demonize modest blandness?"
That sounds hard unless you have the entire national media working on your side. They managed to do it to Romney.
"madisonfella said...
and it is simply precious how Althouse ends her post by using the Nazi swastika once again. She really does seem to enjoy flying that flag as often as possible."
Thanks for dropping by and sharing some stupid Penquin.
"I think it would be cool if more regions than just New England had generally recognized and commonly used names.
I think the Plains States, The Old Northwest, The Pacific Northwest, Dixie, etc, would be nice names to still have around."
They are used if you live there. Except for The Old Northwest. I don't think many people have that historical awareness.
and it is simply precious how Althouse ends her post by using the Nazi swastika once again. She really does seem to enjoy flying that flag as often as possible
We are all certain it was Walker who planted them to make the protesters look bad too!
I agreed with Wright that Walker's education level is a non-factor in 2016.
But, from the same category (Things That Shouldn't Matter But Might), I saw a picture of Walker the other day with a woman identified as his wife...except his wife looked like she might be his mother.
What's up with that? Non-Wisconsinites want to know.
Left Bank of the Charles said...
Harding was the last born and raised Midwesterner elected President.
Truman?
Born, raised and died in Missouri.
bbkingfish - his wife is about 15 years his senior.
Arkansas is 100% the South.
Yes, Americans love midwesterners.
"bbkingfish said...
But, from the same category (Things That Shouldn't Matter But Might), I saw a picture of Walker the other day with a woman identified as his wife...except his wife looked like she might be his mother.
What's up with that? Non-Wisconsinites want to know. "
His wife is 12 years older then him.
"bbkingfish said...
...except his wife looked like she might be his mother. "
Didn't hurt George H.W. Bush.
We are all certain it was Walker who planted them to make the protesters look bad too!
You may be certain about that, but I'm not convinced either way. Tho Walker admitting that he considered doing so is pretty damning for him.
But that link wasn't about the picture Althouse is constantly using in order to paint all the protesters as all the same, rather that link was to where Althouse says Burke was wrong to point out that the WI-GOP used the Nazi symbol in their campaign against her.
Given the sheer number of different times Ann has posted the Nazis swastika it is obvious why you were confused.
I'm in the camp that likes a distinction between the Old Northwest and the Plains States but I don't think the Old Northwest equals the Midwest. My mental map defines the Midwest as those states north of the Ohio River and/or bordering on the Mississippi. (That be the Old Northwest plus Missouri, Iowa, and Minnesota).
Tim Pawlenty wasn't bland because he was from the midwest. He was bland because he was Tim Pawlenty.
What the problem really is isn't midwesterners. It's that our process of electing a president doesn't highlight or test the skills that actually make a good president.
It is a great system for employing campaign consultants, handlers, pollsters, advertising agencies, and advisors. It is also a great system for obtaining slush funds, email addresses, and ambassadorships.
Inevitably, Walker's liberal enemies will not be able to restrain themselves from cheap- shotting Tonette and the Walker's marriage. This too, will rebound in Walker's favor in 2016.
Hillary has a midwestern accent.
Obama does sometimes, too. When he's not using his southern accent or his streetish accent.
From Illinois: Abe, Grant, Reagan (born) O (cough, cough) Obama
He will be characterized as anti-schools and anti-union.
He's attempting to fight that as well as "blandness" with the Big and Bold phrase that will be much repeated. BTW, was Iowa the first time he mentioned the threat to gut his wife like a fish? That seems rather anti-bland.
But since something as meaningless as accent is in play, might as well throw in hair loss.
But it's a pretty bland field. And we all know Hil' is Southern. "I aint no wayzz tyrrreed"
Walker's liberal enemies will not be able to restrain themselves from cheap- shotting Tonette and the Walker's marriage.
I'm sure Ann linked to the dozens and dozens of liberal blogs that were attacking Tonette over her looks and her weight during the recall elections because there is no way this blog would let that go unnoticed.
Maybe she'll be kind enough to repost that and give the Nazi symbols a short rest for a change.
"There you go again, Jimmy ..."
Midwestern?
Mrs. Tank has a ear for these things.
Tank does not.
This makes me think of the "Return to Normalcy", the campaign slogan of Warren Harding.
He was from?
Ohio.
His campaign was after WWI when the public wanted to go back to a pre-war worldview.
Harding said:
"America's present need is not heroics, but healing; not nostrums, but normalcy; not revolution, but restoration; not agitation, but adjustment; not surgery, but serenity; not the dramatic, but the dispassionate; not experiment, but equipoise; not submergence in internationality, but sustainment in triumphant nationality".
Something like that would appeal today, I think.
"lemondog said...
From Illinois: Abe, Grant, Reagan (born) O (cough, cough) Obama"
Reagan lived in Illinois into his 20's, and the middwest until his late 20's. So more then born. Born and raised.
If you travel through Galesburg and Dixon Illinois, you will see quite few historical plaques in front of homes that Ronald Reagan lived in as a child. His father was an itinerant salesman and they moved a lot.
He is thoroughly Midwestern and struggling middle class in his roots. No wonder he was demonized back i the day.
I thought everyone was from California now. Just different parts of California.
Ann Althouse said... I was surprised to see that I could have said we have a President right now from the Midwest! It never occurred to me — even as I rewatched that Bloggingheads segment — to think of Barack Obama as a Midwesterner, despite his connection to Illinois. His demeanor and his accent don't come across as midwestern. I think of him as coming from Hawaii.
Oh dear, what a shocking admission, Professor! That borders on "othering," seeing the President as somehow foreign or different from his actual place of origin. You might as well have said you assumed he was Kenyan. It's a good thing you're not a Republican--the petiitions would already be circulating!
Did you watch the TV series Fargo? If so how did the accents and affectations match up against what you really see out there?
If the Mason-Dixon line had been extended east to cut off what is now the head of Delaware, it would have severed Wilmington, the historic Christina — heart and foundation of the old Swedish colony known as Nya Sverige or Nova Svecia which was that state's historic source — from Delaware.
I think it's sort of rare to have a president who is seen as too "regional"--with thick accents and mannerisms. But if you count Ohio and Indiana as midwest, we had quite a few presidents from that region from the Civil War era until FDR. Post FDR, the only midwesterners we had were Truman (though the southern part of the mdiwest), Eisenhower (who moved around a lot so really couldn't be pegged to a region--he spent a lot of time in NY and in the south), and Obama (who as you said doesn't really seem culturally midwestern, as he moved to Chicago as an adult).
What about the South? Except for Carter and Clinton, if you don't count Texas (which is sort of a unique quasi-western state), the South hasn't elected a president since the Civil War.
It's been suggested that Arkansas be considered part of the Midwest.
That's a kingsized regional tent you got there. I just can't make Dizzy Dean a Midwesterner.
Thank you, Mrs. E, and Curious George.
Also, what does it mean to be "from" a certain region? Your most recent residence before being elected (which would make Nixon a New Yorker)? The state where you held office (making Obama an Illinoisan)? The state you were born in (making Eisenhower a Texan)? The state where your family is from, or where you grew up (making Bush Sr. a Connecticutter)?
I think if we look at it as "where the general public identifies you with" then it could really be any of those things--as noted above, Hillary was from Illinois, but was First Lady of Arkansas, and was actually elected from NY, but on some cultural level (accent mainly) she seems Illinoisan. But a case could be made for any of those states being the one we identify her with.
It's fallacious thinking to attribute viewpoints and mentality to regions. Obama may be from Chicago and therefore the Midwest, but if you want to characterize, he's ideologically matched to the New York archetype of limousine liberal more than anything else.
The Midwest is hardly monolithic culturally anyway. I'd draw distinctions between the urban types of culture found in Chicago, Detroit, etc. (as well as distinctions between Chicago, Detroit, etc. themselves) and other places like southern Indiana, practically everywhere in Kentucky that's not a big city, etc. We attribute characteristics to these areas that don't always apply in individual cases. Hell, I'm guilty of it a lot myself, but I often have to step back and remind myself of the fallacy.
As an aside: I don't think I'd call the "Fargo" Minnesotoan accent a "Midwestern" one as much as I'd say it's a unique one derived from the integration of Germanic and Scandinavian immigrants in past centuries. To me, it's very much a distinct one from what's often take to be the generic "Midwestern" accent.
Do some forms of regionalism trump ethnicity? Are the Boston Irish more of less Irish than the Milwaukee Irish. The guess here is that if you grow up in an ethnic enclave, then that trumps your regional identity.....The mid-Atlantic states are like the Midwest of the East. I can't think of any stereotype that has stuck to the people of Maryland and Delaware. I have no preconceived notions of them. The people of Maryland are said to eat crabs, but you can't form much of an opinion based on that.
Sue there were southerners.
Woodrow Wilson - Virginia
That's the South.
And why not count Carter and Clinton ?
And for that matter why not Texas ?
The whole lot of them were from the old Confederacy.
Hickory dickory dock,
The Kochs wait out the clock.
Striking Sixteen,
Tis no in-between.
Winning in a walk,
Walker hushes the talk.
There are the Coasts, and then there's Flyover Country.
Kansas is part of the Plains States. It is not the Midwest. The Plains States run from North Dakota southward to Oklahoma. I'm not sure what Missouri is.
Of course, I grew up in the middle of Pennsylvania, listening to people claim that Harrisburg was in central PA. Uh, no, it's not.
He also sneered at the notion that Delaware is the South.
He was correct.
Arkansas is not the Midwest, it is the south. It shares a border with Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee, Texas. It fought with the south. It is culturally mostly southern. It is currently 60+ degrees, instead of snowing.
Kansas was part of "the Plains States. (Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas)" It seems that "the Plains" have been folded into "the Midwest" by our coastal media people anymore, and that "the Plains" has ceased to exist.
I think that’s where the real confusion comes from.
Obama was raised by midwesterners partially in Hawaii and partially in Indonesia. He's lived in the midwest a great deal of his adult life.
He doesn't seem the least bit Hawaiian. I agree with Tibore who says he's more like a New Yorker, but then he only lived in New York 3 years.
He's someone who went looking for an identity and found one, I think, rather than someone who was much shaped by a geographic region.
"Arkansas is not the Midwest, it is the south. It shares a border with Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee, Texas. It fought with the south. It is culturally mostly southern. It is currently 60+ degrees, instead of snowing."
That's true about Arkansas--it being more "southern" than anything else--but a lot of border states fall into more than one easy category. Missouri I think can claim to be southern or midwestern, and Kentucky and West Virginia straddle the line though they seem more southern. Maryland historically was southern, but I think culturally it's more northern now. A lot of this also has to do with recent arrivals--it's why we don't often think of Florida as southern, though it is physically southern and historically so (and if you get away from the coasts the accents and culture are clearly southern), because of all the northern transplants. (Imagine referring to Debbie Wasserman Shultz or Alan Grayson as "southern congressmen"). Ditto Virginia, which is become more "northern" all the time.
Oklahoma and Texas also seem to straddle the line. And of course even among clearly southern states there are significant variations--Louisiana vs. the Carolinas, for example.
The Denver Post, in its heyday, positioned itself as "The voice of the Rocky Mountain Empire" That, or Mountain West, is how I think of my home region. The rest of you can argue about who belongs to the lesser areas. ;-)
But if you want an official answer from D.C.check here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Census_regions_of_the_United_States
Tho Walker admitting that he considered doing so is pretty damning for him.
Of course, the people who don't viscerally hate Walker probably see this more and an offhand comment on the effectiveness of the protester's strategy than an honest look inside his campaign.
It just goes to prove the rule that there is nothing any candidate can say that is so precise that it can't be deliberately misconstrued by people who hate him.
For instance, when I heard Obama say, "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan," I interpreted it literally when what he really meant was "If *I* like your plan, you can keep your plan." So I thought for a long time he was a liar when it just turned out that I am a hater.
The fine parsing of what is "mid-western" is lost on anyone not from the area.
All these historical presidential election patterns are nice but get less accurate over time. Obama broke every one of them. Clinton, McCain and Romney would have broken most or all as well.
After Obama most of us have had enough charisma, charm, and novelty in a president.
2016 will be mainly about who is less like Obama: competency, SUCCESSFUL experience, policy, engagement, coherence.
Walker is the Anti-Obama, an adult, not a rock star affirmative action novelty. Clinton, for whom you will vote, is Obama without the rock star part.
it's why we don't often think of Florida as southern
I always heard florida gets less southern the further south you go :) Parts of it are still quite southern culturally, though.
I find the people who want to put Arkansas in the midwest sort of baffling. Missouri is very much a hard to pin down state because they are kind of in the middle and they aren't really plains...
I still think it'll be Perry, but I'm adding a second hedge bet on Walker. All the "smart guys in the room" were saying that Walker is too dull, not a great speaker, etc.
Then Walker gave his speech in Iowa.
I should have deleted Karl Rove from the list of "smart guys in the room." He's gone for sure now.
@Shanna, the predominant accent in Miami Beach is Noo Yawk.
Bob is a very poor representative of Texas.
Hilary wasn't just born in the midwest. She grew up there. So much for modest and low key. There might still be some midwest deep in her, but it's completely covered by makeup.
Reagan was midwestern. Yeah he went to Hollywood but in those days all of Hollywood was from somewhere else. I have been to Dixon, Illinois a number of times and it is definitely Midwestern.
Eisenhower--Kansas (sorta midwest)
Taft--Ohio (Ditto)
Dole--Grew up in Illinois--Very Midwestern.
Obama--Not Midwestern and didn't even play one on TV.
Humphrey--Minnesota
Truman--Missouri
Harding--Ohio
Stevenson--Illinois
McGovern--South Dakota
Cox--Ohio. In 1920 both major party candidates were from Ohio.
Wilkie--Indiana
McKinley--Ohio
Stevenson--Illinois
Ford--Michigan
Landon--Kansas
Back to the 19th Century, the Midwest ruled. Lincoln, Grant, Garfield, Hayes, McKinley.
The eastern and western bias that seems to prevail today is partly a product of shifting demographics, but I think more of the mass media, which is east coast dominant, and popular culture, west coast dominant. (You might add Higher Education--Easterners and eastern wannabes.)
The only real "midwestern" candidates lately have been Bob Dole, who could have won the presidency but got tagged as too old and could not escape it, and Mondale, who was Carterized and also who foolishly began his campaign promising to raise taxes.
There is a lot of latent political power in being "midwestern." It only needs the right person to tap it.
"I always heard florida gets less southern the further south you go :) Parts of it are still quite southern culturally, though."
Very true--though I'd say it's also the more inland you go--even a half hour from the coasts and you get the thick accents and country shuffle! I once drove across the middle of the state and you definitely notice the difference. But particularly in the Tampa/Miami areas it's hard to find a southern accent.
"I find the people who want to put Arkansas in the midwest sort of baffling. Missouri is very much a hard to pin down state because they are kind of in the middle and they aren't really plains..."
I haven't been to Arkansas but can take your word for it--my rule of thumb usually was if your state was represented in the Confederate Battle Flag, it's the south, with an exception for West VA and Oklahoma. Extra points if your state has regional BBQ.
Madisonfella says: "Walker's liberal enemies will not be able to restrain themselves from cheap- shotting Tonette and the Walker's marriage.
I'm sure Ann linked to the dozens and dozens of liberal blogs that were attacking Tonette over her looks and her weight during the recall elections because there is no way this blog would let that go unnoticed."
So....Ann or anyone else is supposed to just forget about what kind of assholes you liberals really are? So easy to point out liberal hypocrisy - ever hear of the WAR ON WOMEN?
"I still think it'll be Perry, but I'm adding a second hedge bet on Walker."
I'd be surprised if neither of them was in the final rounds of contested primaries--both have the establishment cred to win the average GOP voters, plus the Tea Party base. Of course, we're saying this in early 2015 so everything is subject to the next 12 months.
I always thought of Western New York as midwestern, it is if Ohio is. Maybe it is more Great Lakes though.
"I always thought of Western New York as midwestern, it is if Ohio is."
I'll second that--my mom's family is from an hour outside of Syracuse, and if you didn't know better you'd think you were in the Plains states. Flat farmland, accents that certainly sounded midwestern ("car" pronounced "cayer"), pickup trucks everywhere--the New York plates on the cars seemed strange when you're up there. It's also a big dairy producing area (though I'm sure not like Wisconsin).
For instance, when I heard Obama say, "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan," I interpreted it literally when what he really meant was "If *I* like your plan, you can keep your plan." So I thought for a long time he was a liar
Not sure what that has to do with Walker admitting him and his team considered the idea of planting troublemakers in the crowd in order to make the protesters look bad, but I agree that Obama is dirty liar and have repeatedly said the President needs to be impeached.
what kind of assholes you liberals really are?
You've been forced to believe I am liberal, and you shouldn't believe everything Delusional George (and his many sock puppets) tells you.
MF,
"But, from the same category (Things That Shouldn't Matter But Might), I saw a picture of Walker the other day with a woman identified as his wife...except his wife looked like she might be his mother.
What's up with that? Non-Wisconsinites want to know"
But thanks for playing!
The Drill SGT has a point on Truman, but I would give him an asterisk for getting into the office of President by virtue of FDR's death. He did win the election of 1948, or did Dewey defeat Truman?
Oklahoma part of the midwest? GTFO.
MadisonMan said...
Of course, I grew up in the middle of Pennsylvania, listening to people claim that Harrisburg was in central PA. Uh, no, it's not.
Oh, you are one of them. You probably think Altoona is central PA and Harrisburg is not. Sorry, Altoona is culturally Western PA, and Harrisburg is the cultural center of Central PA. Snake Hollow may be the geographic center, but you gotta have the PA Dutch influence, not the Pittsburgh hangover, to be Central PA
I had friends on the east coast who called everything PA between pittsburg and philly 'mississippi'. But they saved the most disparaging jokes for West Virginia. I visited both places and found them absolutely gorgeous.
I think OK is a cross between western and plains, maybe...
Several people here have mentioned Missouri as a special case. It depends on where one views it from. People in the "Deep South" definitely consider it a midwestern or even northern state, while people on the east coast consider it a western or "Plains" state, while people in most of the midwest (especially the upper midwest) consider it a southern state. Further, one could break it down further and argue that the southern half is culturally southern, while the northern half is culturally mid-western.
One could argue the same division for Illinois, Ind and Ohio, with the southern half of Ill being culturally southern, the southern third of Ind the same and the southern quarter of Ohio culturally southern as well.
(There is a food critic in New Orleans who has a daily three (3) hour foodie radio talk show [ONLY in New Orleans] who has devised the "Grits line."--a foodie equivalent to the Mason-Dixon line. He bases it on the metric of where one is like to get grits automatically served for breakfast rather than hash-browns. He claims it starts in D,C, gos west thru the top of Virginia and W. Virginia, skims thru southern Ohio, Ind and Illinois as I have just described, then heads south-west bisecting Missouri and the lower, western part of Okla, down thru Texas still heading SW and ending up at Del Rio on the Mexican border. Make of it what you will. YMMV...LOL...)
Ah, yes, the persistent Missouri pretense that the thirteenth star on the Confederate flag has something to do with the Midwest.
You probably think Altoona is central PA and Harrisburg is not. Sorry, Altoona is culturally Western PA, and Harrisburg is the cultural center of Central PA
If you're not in Centre County then you're not in Central Pennsylvania.
(Once you climb up the Allegheny Front you're in Western PA -- that puts Altoona right at the border).
Yes, the madison protesters came off looking like assholes because...Scott Walker! Koch brothers! Plastic turkey!
No, the madison protesters came off looking like Nazi sympathizing assholes because - get this - they ARE assholes and don't need anyone's help demonstrating that while the world watches.
Ike from Kansas
By political observers Florida is called Pork Chop Florida until you get 50 miles south of the Tampa/Orlando/Port Canaveral line.
From Miami across to Naples is a Yankee retirees and rich South Americans area.
MadisonMan said...
If you're not in Centre County then you're not in Central Pennsylvania.
Tell that to the angry Peacheys Yoders Zooks and Beilers of Belleville, for instance
One could argue the same division for Illinois, Ind and Ohio, with the southern half of Ill being culturally southern, the southern third of Ind the same and the southern quarter of Ohio culturally southern as well.
There is a difference between southern and rural.
@buwaya And for that matter why not Texas ?
Texas is not the South, as I explained. While we were in the Confederacy, we weren't as slave dependent as the South. And culturally, we're very different.
I'm very comfortable with the quiet, bland midwestern demeanor because I'm a Lutheran and all my church friends are that way. :)
Don't forget that part of NJ is south of the Mason Dixon line .... Y'all.
But, from the same category (Things That Shouldn't Matter But Might), I saw a picture of Walker the other day with a woman identified as his wife...except his wife looked like she might be his mother.
That joke was almost funny the first time I heard it.
About 30 years ago.
In regards to Barbara Bush.
Get better material.
I still think it'll be Perry, but I'm adding a second hedge bet on Walker. All the "smart guys in the room" were saying that Walker is too dull, not a great speaker, etc.
Then Walker gave his speech in Iowa.
These experts seem to forget how horrible Clinton's first major speech was at the 1988 DNC. That was a shit show of epic proportions.
Sometimes, people are better at things than people realize.
Not sure what that has to do with Walker admitting him and his team considered the idea of planting troublemakers in the crowd
Considered < Doing.
Obama considered taxing accounts parents use to save for college. Democrats considered nationalizing oil companies.
What they do, though, is of more importance.
And Missouri is south. They're in the SEC. We claim them now.
"There is a difference between southern and rural."
Here's a question--how do we define "southern" as opposed to "rural" in the cultural sense? Some accents tend to blend a bit--I'm sure someone with a better ear than me can tell a Kentucky accent from an Alabama, and of course there are even non-transplant southerners who seem to have no accent at all. Food preferences also vary across the region, as well as musical tastes--and to be sure, a lot of that has a national flavor (I can imagine teenagers in Georgia listening to modern rock and I've known Mainers who listen to country).
It's clear though that the confederate states are technically "south" (even if some parts of them are more culturally northern, like coastal Florida, Austin, or northern VA) and I'd count parts of the bordering states as well (OK, KY, MO, perhaps even parts of Maryland?). Beyond that though I think it'd be a reach.
All of these argument show the need for universally accepted regional names with somewhat more poetry and historical sensitivity than those of Census Bureau.
That's settled.
"Texas is not the South, as I explained. While we were in the Confederacy, we weren't as slave dependent as the South. And culturally, we're very different."
The cultural difference I get, but is "slave dependence" really the deciding factor on "southernness" here? A lot of Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina and Virginia had few if any slaves, which is why those states were late arrivals to teh secessionist cause (and West VA even seceded from VA for it). Those sections may not have been slaveholding or secessionist, but are they not southern?
Damn, MadisonMan. You are the Central Pennsylvania equivalent of a "Little Britain" man. Seriously, greater Pittsburgh, aka "Yunzerland", extends from halfway to Cleveland to somewhere west of Du Bois, and east of Greensburg. Greater Philadelphia doesn't extend much further west than Pottstown, depending on how you feel about Reading, but certainly no further west than the Berks County line. York, Lancaster, Adams, Lebanon and Dauphin County are pretty much the heart of Pennsylvania Dutch country. South and eastern Centre is pretty much a western adjunct of the main 'Dutch' counties to the east, and northern and western Centre is part of the Appalachian Scotch-Irish country - strip mining, logging, huntin'.
And the American Midwest extends from south of Buffalo to the 100th Meridian, and includes eastern Kansas and parts, but not all, of Missouri. South-eastern Missouri is still the Delta, and south-western Missouri is an extension of Greater Appalachia, along with north-western Arkansas. But no part of Arkansas by any definition could be considered "Midwestern".
"Centre County."
Well spelled. Madison Man. You get the authenticity award.
Let's start putting up pictures of Tonette and HRC side by side.
Being from Texas, I would not have thought twice about lumping together Ohio and Wisconsin. But then I've never been to Wisconin, and I've never spent much time in Ohio.
Delaware is not South. At least not New Castle County. I grew up behind the Nylon Curtain until we moved to California. People in California had the same accent I had from Delaware. Southerners sound different.
The first "Midwestern" candidate was Harrison (OH) in 1836 and 1840 (elected). Lewis Cass (MI) ran in 1848.
From 1860 to 1900, Midwestern Republicans (IL-4, IN-2, OH-3) won nine elections, and then two more in 1908 and 1920 - none since. There have been three losers
Landon (KS, 1936), Ford (MI, 1976) and Dole (KS, 1996).
Obama is the only Midwestern Democrat President. There have been ten losers (counting Bryan three times and Stevenson twice).
(I don't count Truman as fully Midwestern, if Midwestern is defined as "Northern-not-Eastern". Missouri was a Border State, and Truman's mother-in-law refused to sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom.)
Growing up in the Upper Midwest (Minnesota) I never felt that Ohio was part of the Midwest- but as an adult I think it's more so. I always and still do consider St. Louis to be a Southern city, and KC a Midwestern one. As for the Fargo accent- it's prevalent in a band that stretches from the UP to the Dakotas- and includes Minnesota as well as Wisconsin outside of Milwaukee (and just outside- many suburban Milwaukeeans have it.) In my own family, two of the kids have pretty pronounced Upper Midwest accents, and two of us do not, although the two of us that don't now live in Massachusetts. The movie and TV show Fargo overplayed the accent, but not by much.
And I never thought of Arkansas as part of the Midwest.
The South stretches from the Potomac to the Rio Grande. To the north, it includes all those truck stops where you get grits with breakfast. That includes parts of Delaware, Maryland, Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois.
Texas is a special case. It is sort of the Promised Land of America.
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