The Packers remain the most popular team in the country. They have a +36 net favorability rating with 54% of Americans viewing them favorably to 18% with a negative opinion. The only other teams above +20 are the Seahawks (+25 at 45/20) and the Broncos (+24 at 44/20). The Packers also win out when voters are asked to name their single favorite team — 15% pick the Packers to 13% for the Cowboys, 10% for the Seahawks, and 9% each for the Broncos, Patriots, and Steelers.
January 28, 2015
"Americans think Pats cheated, rooting for Seahawks."
Public Policy Polling finds. Also:
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138 comments:
Rooting against both.
The Packers play from a city of 100,000 in the North (Upper Midwest). Like the Steelers, their name evokes the working class.
If any team in any sport should be "America's Team," is the Packers. And I'm a Bears fan.
I'm going to re-watch the last five minutes of the Packers v Seahawks game. The greatest five minutes in NFL history.
Americans think Pats cheated...
"Makin' it look mean!"
Seahawks/Pete Carroll/Russell Wilson fan.
Though I have NEVER liked Bellichick or Brady, I think the deflategate rush to judgment is kind of stupid.
People don't like the Patriots because Bostononians, and New Englanders in general, annoy us.
Curious George, it certainly was one of the greatest.
At 3 minutes left in the game, Packers 19, Seahawks 7, the odds of Seattle coming back were 1%.
1 PERCENT!!!!
History Baby!
Brady is a great player. Not as good as Montana, but close. But Bellichick is a just a JV version of Bill Walsh.
The Patriots are going to break the record for most Super Bowl loses on Sunday, when they earn their fifth one.
What I find disgusting are the Machiavellian defenses of evident cheating that many sports journalists have floated recently. It's no surprise that execrable figures like Keith Olbermann have cut their teeth on sports commentary before becoming leftist pundits.
Beldar said...
Rooting against both.
Really. This is the least I've looked forward to a SB in a long time. I can't root for either of these teams. Glad to be going to a party where I can drink and socialize. I wonder if Perry will sing with Elmo. That would be awesome.
Homer: Aw, the Denver Broncos!
Marge: I think owning the Denver Broncos is pretty good.
Homer: Yeah, yeah.
Marge: Well, explain to me why it isn't.
Homer: You just don't understand football, Marge.
Tank said...
I wonder if Perry will sing with Elmo. That would be awesome.
1/28/15, 11:20 AM
You want to hear Rick Perry singing with Elmo (from Sesame Street)?
Rick Perry, Katy Perry and Elmo?
OK.
I had never heard of Katy Perry until the Elmo "controversy."
To America, Belichick is the surly uncle at Thanksgiving dinner.
Carroll is the cousin that always brought weed.
I like the Packers because I like Aaron Rodgers. What is there not to like about him? I feel the same about Russell Wilson.
Tom Brady annoys me, but I had admired him. Watching him stand there and lie at his press conference pained me.
So Seahawks for me.
Funny that people like the Packers, what with Rodgers being an admitted cheater wrt ball inflation.
Look! Tom Brady has a cold! Are the Patriots setting the stage for excuse making if they lose? Or, will the story be if they win, Tom can handle anything and everything that is handed to him, sick or healthy!
People don't like the Patriots because Bostononians, and New Englanders in general, annoy us.
1/28/15, 11:16 AM
My view though is that NYC is worse, which is why I despise the Yankees. Not all Patriot fans are that bad - know some guys from rural upstate VT who are great.
Still, a lot of it is what you are used to. I have spent most of my life in the west, except for 6 years in DC and 4 in Austin. But my kid just spent 4 years as an undergrad in that area, and grew accustomed to the people there, and finds them far less obnoxious than I do, and even watches Patriots games on occasion (though still a Bronco fan, having grown up, and living again, in CO).
Not a Pats fan, but go Pats.
Brady is GOAT. He really is. There's something incredible about the way he plays. It seems like every season he is surrounded with different weapons. The first four or five weeks, the team struggles and the sports media questions whether Brady is done. Then it suddenly clicks, formerly unknown receivers start catching balls and scoring touchdowns, and Brady looks better than ever. Makes me realize the importance in football of chemistry, acceptance of role, preparation, etc. Brady is the best in the business.
After watching Tim Duncan win his fifth ring last June, I want to see Tom Brady win his fourth ring on Sunday. These guys are on the wrong side of 35 and are still winning at the highest level.
Even though I'm a non-fan, I'd still like somebody to explain to me how slightly deflating the football helps one team over the other.
Reading through the poll, why are the choices limited specifically to only NINE specific NFL teams along with the option of "Something else/don't have favorite team". Were there only 10 spots available for their poll, and they pre-selected the 9 teams they thought would return the highest percentages?
Tom Brady FTW. The Packers need to be revenged on that short dude Wilson who whipped them in 5 minutes.
@MisterBuddwing
Each team uses their own sets of balls. They are supposed to be inflated to a relatively uniform pressure. If the Pats deflate their balls to make them easier to grip, but the Colts balls remain at the rule-defined pressure, they Pats would have an advantage provided that the Colts would have preferred that slightly deflated option to. However, the Colts were never given that option. They played with their balls properly inflated, because they followed that rules that state it is a violation to deflate them. Think of it this way - if you are playing baseball and the rules say you are only allowed a solid wood bat, but your opponent is using corked bats, they are "cheating" and have may have an advantage over you.
The best drinking game is to take a shot (or beer) when Tom Brady swears.
As for why people like the Packers, well, they are from Wisconsin. Who doesn't like cheese and sausage? It's a lot better than lobster (New England) or salmon (Seattle), foods for rich people.
Of course America is rooting for the Seahawks. The Patriots are a bunch of white male racists bitterly clinging to guns and religion, while Seahawks are proud birds of prey filling a needed ecological role in Gaia's magnificent creation. NE plays in a stadium plunked in the lily-white suburbs of ameriKKKa's most racist city, where fans are encouraged to drive fossil fuel burning vehicles to the games. Seattle has a stadium located right in the heart of a vibrant Pacific-rim metropolis, easily reached by light rail. Now for the biggest reason: the QB of the NE cheaters is Brady, the stalest palest male imaginable. Obama Nation obviously prefers Seattle's diverse QB.
Each team uses their own sets of balls.
So every time the other team gains possession of the ball, they take out the ball belonging to the team that's just lost possession and bring in the other team's own special ball?
(It never occurred to me that when they say, "It's New England's ball," they really meant it.)
So every time the other team gains possession of the ball, they take out the ball belonging to the team that's just lost possession and bring in the other team's own special ball?
Yeah, you can see the ref throwing the ball back and forth with the team on the sidelines.
I've been a Cowboys fan since I was a little boy growing up in Texas in the mid-60s. I've been a Seahawks fan since they came into the league as an expansion team because I loved the cool logo. It gave me a team to follow in each conference, until Seattle was realigned into the NFC. Go Hawks!
However, the Colts were never given that option. They played with their balls properly inflated, because they followed that rules that state it is a violation to deflate them.
Not a fan. Where is the proof other than" somebody says"? Vid or pics of pressure test before, during, after game? Sworn affidavits from refs? Vid of inflated ball with pressure gauge attatched moved from 80 degree locker romm to 50 degree field?
Colts ball pre game, 13.5 Pats ball 12.5. Each lose a pound due to temperature, Colts still legal 12.5, Pats illegal at 11.5. This seems liks a 6th grade science experiment to me. If I wasn't so lazy I would do it myself.
BTW, I am most interested in the pressure aspect of the thing rather than the football cheating thing. I have seen residential gas piping pumped for test in the afternoon lose pressure overnight, and gain it back as the day progresses.
For Packers fans, do you want justice or revenge?
The controversy is bound to help the Patriots, as they now have something to prove. Of course, Pete Carroll used to coach here, so he has something to prove too.
Nonetheless, I predict the Patriots will lose on a bad call. The refs also have something to prove.
Last year's Super Bowl was such a laugher that it's hard to gauge the Seahawks. Brady has a tight end with over 1100 receiving yards and two wide receivers who are just under 1000 yards apiece. I'd love to see what he can do against that Seahawks secondary.
But!
I continue to think that once the evidence was in -- a full week ago! -- that the footballs used by the Patriots on offense were way out of spec and furthermore that this certainly offered an unfair advantage to New England, then the only right thing to do for the integrity of the game was to declare the AFC championships a forfeit and ask the Colts to reassemble their team to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl.
It doesn't help that generally fans of New England teams can be insufferably smug, and poor winners as well as poor losers. Their endless willingness to make excuses when their team does something underhanded only buttresses that.
A part of it might also be that the Patriots have been probably the strongest football team over the past decade and a half. This is the sixth (?) Super Bowl they've been in during that period, and for the other years they regularly make it to the conference championship, and have not had a truly awful season in that time. Wanting to see the defeat of a team that is that dominant, beset by periodic cheating scandals, and supported by obnoxious fans, is normal.
Unknown said...
"I think the deflategate rush to judgment is kind of stupid."
My first reaction was 'No way they're cheating.' Now I'm thinking they probably have been for years. Its not a rush to judgement.
Read any or all of the articles linked below. I think you will see it differently.
http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-prevention-of-fumbles-is-nearly-impossible
http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/new-england-patriots-fumble-more-often-when-playing-for-other-teams
http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007
I agree with you Big Mike. Cheating is cheating and there was no way 11 out of 12 footballs out of spec is an accident when a random pre-game test turned up no issues. What, did the refs only test one ball and just happened to test the only proper ball? Also, you can't tell me that a QB that works with footballs constantly did not notice the balls were too soft.
Green Bay being from Wisconsin may be a good reason for some to be Packer fans but it never was for me. It was Bart Starr, Lombardi, etc. Not my most favorite but way up there.
Colts ball pre game, 13.5 Pats ball 12.5. Each lose a pound due to temperature, Colts still legal 12.5, Pats illegal at 11.5
How does a ball lose weight due to a temperature change?
A volume of cold air weighs the same after it's warmed, assuming there is no leakage from the ball. The volume will change but the weight doesn't.
Go Patriots.
As a longtime Broncos fan, that Simpsons scene is the best.
It looks like Andrew Sullivan is walking away from blogging...just a heads up, there, blogger lady.
Can't wait for the blinfold test during pregame build-up. Where they have several retired players as well as genius sportscasters blindfolded while they distinguish between the 12.5 ball and the 11.5 ball. BTW. latest figure I saw was "about a pound difference"
"How does a ball lose weight due to a temperature change?"
We are talking pressure, not weight, I believe.
Unless you mean pounds/sq inch.
pV = nrT.
In absolute terms, though, T is not going to change much from 80 to 50 -- that's a change from 300 K to 283 K, only 6% or so. n and r are constants, so pV cannot change to account for what was observed.
Do you root for Microsoft?
Go Patriots.
@FullMoon, The discrepancy was 2 pounds, which amounts to a 15% variance from the specification (13 +/- 0.5). This can't be explained away through physics, given that the temperature on the field was 50 degrees F. The balls were checked by the referees before the game and found to be within spec. Twelve were collected after the game and eleven were found to be at 10.5 pounds. According to professional football players questioned by the media, underinflated balls are easier to throw and to catch in wet conditions. On game day it was raining hard.
Tests run since that game showed that the ball would lose 'weight', but the temperature swing would have to be in the neighborhood of 111 degrees or so. Game time temps were in the 50s and then fell a bit during gameplay.
So, yeah, temperature had nothing to do with it.
The Ravens suspected something was up the week prior. The Colts even suspected the difference in the regular season game before, but did not bring attention to the league.
Also, the Patriots have been caught in other 'cheating' activities, such as:
Spygate -- video taping opponent walk throughs and video taping opponent defensive signals from the opposing sideline. Patriots video staff have been removed from the field of play before for such violations.
Josh McDaniels, was the Patriots OC. He implemented the same "spygate" techniques in Denver as head coach and was busted again. He was summarily fired (for that and the team's poor record)
Headset Frequency -- the Patriots had an additional radio frequency open from the Offensive Coordinator (in the booth) and Brady on the field that would remain open during the play. The traditional headset frequency shuts off a few seconds prior to the ball being snapped so the OC cannot (from his vantage point) tell the QB where to be able to throw the ball.
The problem with this latest brouhaha is that the Patriots have worn out their excuses with prior behavior, so I sure as hell don't believe them now.
I'll hold my nose and root for Seattle.
Go Hawks.
Some possible scenarios:
Strategy, leadership and Brady's offense strike early and keep enough control to put up 21+ points---28-13 Patriots
Nothing gets going offensively, but Hawks defense keeps them alive and ahead, contributing two scores + some special teams action---20-17 Hawks
It's tight after the first half, Wilson's on, and both teams plug away but Seattle defense overcomes and the 4th quarter gets wild---26-21 Hawks
I'm going to re-watch the last five minutes of the Packers v Seahawks game. The greatest five minutes in NFL history.
Absolutely. Any team can win a football game; it takes something special to do it in a way that crushes the spirit of an entire state.
The only question on Sunday: will the Seahawks win again, or will the Pats get away with cheating again?
The psi has nothing to do with weight. Two lbs (per square inch of volume ) of pressure is easily lost by filling a ball with 75F warm humid air inside a room to 12.5 lbs psi and then cooling it off outside with 50F air. The Condensation inside the ball of water vapor is the primary cause of this pressure loss because a gas has been lost by conversion from gaseous state to liquid state.
Bellichik sees no violations in that. The other team like Green Bay can fill its balls in dry cold outside air and it loses no pressure by going outside later.
Query: where is the cheating?
One of the coaches in the Super Bowl was stripped of a Championship for cheating.
See what I did there?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Parse the NFL's words carefully - the balls at halftime were 'measured.' The balls before the game were 'inspected.'
One team submits overinflated balls, the other underinflated balls, the refs approved both.
The scandal is the media's carrying water for Patriot-haters within the NFL's front office.
The NFL's Mike Kensil's running away (literally) and hiding from tough questions during media day is all you need to know.
More important than ball pressure is whether the refs will let either teams' defensive backs hold the other teams' receivers on every play. Both of these defenses are known for this.
Politically correct notation: every single starting cornerback in the NFL is black. WTF? How about some diversity there? Should we not have a Roselle Rule for cornerbacks? Or do we consider them 100% diverse?
I'm rooting for the Patriots. Seahawks lose outright, and the win goes to a tainted team. Closest thing to my preferred outcome (both of the losing) of which I can think.
Oh wait. Both of them did lose - to my also ran Chiefs. Now how did that happen?
Two lbs (per square inch of volume ) of pressure is easily lost by filling a ball with 75F warm humid air inside a room to 12.5 lbs psi and then cooling it off outside with 50F air. The Condensation inside the ball of water vapor is the primary cause of this pressure loss because a gas has been lost by conversion from gaseous state to liquid state.
The best you can hope for is 3% of the gas in the football to be water vapor in that case. That's very little gas to lose via condensation (and it won't all condense).
'Where is the cheating?'
The cheating lurks in the untrustworthy gaze of Bill Belichik, eyes darting to and fro, as loyal to his equipment managers as Schetinno was to those aboard the listing Costa Concordia. A practitioner of the dark football arts. The Moriarty of a criminal football underworld.
It lies in the overconfidence of Tom Brady, his relaxed demeanor, an ego buoyed by his insanely hot Brazilian supermodel wife and continued football success through passion, preparation, and knowing the playbook and other teams weaknesses in and out.
It lies in the hearts of New England super-fans, overconfident, grating, gloating atop their remarkable football dynasty, more provincial than worldly, more moralistic than morally superior, driving their cahs recklessly to their bahs recklessly in the land of the bean and the cod.
As to your question: Honestly, I don't know where the cheating is. The Superbowl's coming up.
What would Jonathan Chait and the members of Binders Full of Women say about Tank's 12:55 post?
Answer: Free Speech !
OK, maybe not.
The cheating is in that apparently nobody in the mainstream media, including people paid to talk about professional football, can figure out how to pronounce "Belichick".
Speaking of possible cheating, Sailer speculates here on Brady's BFF.
Big Mike said... [hush][hide comment]
@FullMoon, The discrepancy was 2 pounds, which amounts to a 15% variance from the specification (13 +/- 0.5). This can't be explained away through physics, given that the temperature on the field was 50 degrees F. The balls were checked by the referees before the game and found to be within spec. Twelve were collected after the game and eleven were found to be at 10.5 pounds. According to professional football players questioned by the media, underinflated balls are easier to throw and to catch in wet conditions. On game day it was raining hard.
Jesus, f'n Christ! Fuck physics! Somebody take some goddamn balls and make a F'n video. With pressure gauges.I already been out in the garage and I do not have the exact brass fittings to connect my pressure gauge to the goddamn inflation needle. This goes on any longer Ima get it my truck and go buy a fitting. AND I read .."about a pound" Jeez!
Curious George, it certainly was one of the greatest.
At 3 minutes left in the game, Packers 19, Seahawks 7, the odds of Seattle coming back were 1%.
1 PERCENT!!!!
History Baby!
Not to brag, but my Bills did come back from 35-3 in the 4th quarter against Houston to win a playoff game. years ago.
Each team uses their own sets of balls. They are supposed to be inflated to a relatively uniform pressure. If the Pats deflate their balls to make them easier to grip, but the Colts balls remain at the rule-defined pressure, they Pats would have an advantage provided that the Colts would have preferred that slightly deflated option to. However, the Colts were never given that option. They played with their balls properly inflated, because they followed that rules that state it is a violation to deflate them. Think of it this way - if you are playing baseball and the rules say you are only allowed a solid wood bat, but your opponent is using corked bats, they are "cheating" and have may have an advantage over you.
Which, of course, begs the question: WHY ISN'T THE LEAGUE SUPPLYING THE BALLS?
damikesc said...
Each team uses their own sets of balls. They are supposed to be inflated to a relatively uniform pressure. If the Pats deflate their balls to make them easier to grip, but the Colts balls remain at the rule-defined pressure, they Pats would have an advantage provided that the Colts would have preferred that slightly deflated option to. However, the Colts were never given that option. They played with their balls properly inflated, because they followed that rules that state it is a violation to deflate them. Think of it this way - if you are playing baseball and the rules say you are only allowed a solid wood bat, but your opponent is using corked bats, they are "cheating" and have may have an advantage over you.
Which, of course, begs the question: WHY ISN'T THE LEAGUE SUPPLYING THE BALLS?
As I understand it, Brady and Manning (P, not E) petitioned the league for the current system.
As I understand it, Brady and Manning (P, not E) petitioned the league for the current system.
League should've told them to go screw themselves.
The Pats may have cheated but Pete Carroll definitely did while at USC. Not much to choose from here.
I'm a native Badger living in Seattle, so I'm slightly torn. I'd kind of like to see Seattle lose to avenge the Packers. OTOH, the Packers really did it to themselves by pretty much easing up on the gas in the last 5 minutes; inexcusable. OTOOH, I really like Wilson -- a BADGER -- so go Hawks.
I think the Pats cheated with the balls and I for one think it could have made a difference (which is kind of beside the point; cheating is cheating). No way 11 of 12 balls could be accidentally deflated (11 for Brady, one for the kicker?). In the playoffs where the differences between the teams are much smaller, I can see deflated balls giving one team a certain % more catches, which could easily make a difference. You might argue that they scored more in the second half, but one could also argue that by that time the Colts -- who watched the Pats make all sorts of catches they were't making -- were already psychologically defeated.
I don't mind Brady that much. He's a Big 10 guy and was ignored in the draft, and he made good by working phenomenally hard. But I still think he cheated, and wonder how often he's done so in the past now.
It doesn't say much for American ethics that most of the major sports have been plagued with cheating scandals. If it wasn't so boring I would only watch golf.
damikesc said...
As I understand it, Brady and Manning (P, not E) petitioned the league for the current system.
League should've told them to go screw themselves.
Elite QBs are what makes the NFL lots of money. When they talk, the league listens. As long as the playing field is even ...
"As I understand it, Brady and Manning (P, not E) petitioned the league for the current system."
Right. In 2006. And from 2007 on they were off the charts in fumble prevention. Check out the numbers.
http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007
damikesc,
My understanding is that was the case until two very influential quarterbacks made a rather arcane and complicated argument that the present system should be the rule. Their petition for a rules change was granted and we now have the "what could go wrong" system today. The QB's? Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.
I wonder if say Jake Cutler and Ryan Kinsley would receive such a sympathetic hearing.
Man! I've got to type faster!
No way 11 of 12 balls could be accidentally deflated (11 for Brady, one for the kicker?).ONE BALL WAS OVERINFLATED TO START WITH? AND The kicker has an entirely different set of balls provided) In the playoffs where the differences between the teams are much smaller, I can see deflated balls giving one team a certain % more catches does that make it easier for the defense to catch an interception also/, which could easily make a difference. You might argue that they scored more in the second half, but one could also argue that by that time the Colts -- who watched the Pats make all sorts of catches they were't making -- were already psychologically defeated.
Being a New England fan and being subjected to the constant whining and lies about "cheating", such as the bogus cherry-picked fumble stats, is similar to being a Republican and hearing the MSM and brain dead liberals constantly insist that "republicans are racist". It's a lie designed to delegitamize, and people who don't know what they are talking about repeat it as if it were a law of nature.
"damikesc said...
Not to brag, but my Bills did come back from 35-3 in the 4th quarter against Houston to win a playoff game. years ago."
It was quite a comeback, but you're wrong on the fourth quarter. They were down 35-3 early is the third, but the comeback started in the third quarter, where Buffalo scored 28.
But they didn't do it against the Pack, so no way it competes.
Being a New England fan and being subjected to the constant whining and lies about "cheating", such as the bogus cherry-picked fumble stats, is similar to being a Republican and hearing the MSM and brain dead liberals constantly insist that "republicans are racist". It's a lie designed to delegitamize, and people who don't know what they are talking about repeat it as if it were a law of nature.
So, Spygate and the Extra Frequency were just misunderstandings?
If it wasn't so boring I would only watch golf.
Robert Allenby has a story to tell you.
"MadisonMan said...
Colts ball pre game, 13.5 Pats ball 12.5. Each lose a pound due to temperature, Colts still legal 12.5, Pats illegal at 11.5
How does a ball lose weight due to a temperature change?
A volume of cold air weighs the same after it's warmed, assuming there is no leakage from the ball. The volume will change but the weight doesn't."
You thought a football weighed 12 pounds? LOL. I'm guessing AV club in high school, right?
"You thought a football weighed 12 pounds? LOL. I'm guessing AV club in high school, right?"
Pounds per sq inch of pressure.
Do you really not understand that Mr. George?
NFL footballs weight 14-15 OUNCES MM.
LOL
But they didn't do it against the Pack, so no way it competes.
But their starting QB, RB, and best defensive linemen were all out and their best LB was hurting.
I'd say that increases margin of difficulty appreciably.
"Unknown said...
"You thought a football weighed 12 pounds? LOL. I'm guessing AV club in high school, right?"
Pounds per sq inch of pressure.
Do you really not understand that Mr. George?"
Do you really not understand that I was quoting Madison Man, who thought they meant weight, not pressure?
"Do you really not understand that I was quoting Madison Man, who thought they meant weight, not pressure?"
You are the one that fails to understand the term 'pounds' is common short-hand for psi when discussing pressure.
First rule of holes, stop digging.
This story has balls and legs to boot.
We can keep the discussion going.
11.5 pounds would really hurt on balls.
Why does the kicker prefer more pounds per ball?
Can't wait for the blinfold test during pregame build-up
I've seen one on the NFL network already. They had three balls, one properly inflated, one over inflated and one under inflated. They had a two former players (one a QB) handle the balls, and both were able to correctly identify all three balls.
Twelve were collected after the game and eleven were found to be at 10.5 pounds.
Just to be pedantic, the under inflated balls were discovered at halftime.
MadisonMan said, "The best you can hope for is 3% of the gas in the football to be water vapor in that case."
So sorry. That looks like a straight line, but I can't figure out how to resolve it.
The gas is the best part!
Mmm. Water vapor.
I once had a 3% hit. My buddy said it'd be great. Back in Oregon, 6% was considered standard.
"More important than ball pressure is whether the refs will let either teams' defensive backs hold the other teams' receivers on every play"
And that is just as much cheating, with a bigger impact, as the underinflated balls are.
damikesc said...
Which, of course, begs the question: WHY ISN'T THE LEAGUE SUPPLYING THE BALLS?
1/28/15, 1:11 PM
I would say the same for all judged sports that involve equipment (that matters). In Olympic cycling, all participants should randomly pick from a pool of issued bicycles. Tennis, same. As much as possible standardize the equipment so that we are really comparing people and not technology.
I wonder if the refs will be doing random pressure checks during the Superbowl.
I've seen one on the NFL network already. They had three balls, one properly inflated, one over inflated and one under inflated. They had a two former players (one a QB) handle the balls, and both were able to correctly identify all three balls.
Here's the segment that ran just before that.
Highlights:
An average NFL player passing or receiving could apply 1.5% more grip force to an uninflated football. It doesn't mean that it's necessarily better for the grip for a quarterback.
Reducing PSI by 2lbs alters the weight of the ball by 1.5 grams, about the weight of a dollar bill.
A more deflated balls velocity is actually reduced, but by an insignificant amount.
" Unknown said...
"Do you really not understand that I was quoting Madison Man, who thought they meant weight, not pressure?"
You are the one that fails to understand the term 'pounds' is common short-hand for psi when discussing pressure.
First rule of holes, stop digging."
Dude, you are a fucking moron. I know it's pressure dumbass, and it's clear I know from my comments.
I'm guessing AV club in high school, right?
Nope. No time. I worked after school.
Cut and paste from Daily callerProFootballTalk’s Mike Florio reports that while the NFL report stated that 11 of the balls supplied by the Patriots were 2 pounds below the league’s minimum PSI threshold, the balls were ACTUALLY ONLY 1 POUND BELOW THE LIMIT.
As one league source has explained it to PFT, the football intercepted by Colts linebacker D’Qwell Jacksonwas roughly two pounds under the 12.5 PSI minimum. The other 10 balls that reportedly were two pounds under may have been, as the source explained it, closer to one pound below 12.5 PSI.
then why would they fudge the numbers?
Well… maybe it has something to do with the NFL executive heading up this witch-hunt basically being the biggest Pats-hater in the history of football?
Enter Mike Kensil, the real man behind the Deflate-Gate curtain. Kensil, who is currently the NFL’s VP of game operations, was with the New York Jets’ front office until 2006. His tenure with the team included Belichick abandoning the Jets in 2000 to build a dynasty in Foxborough, and Kensil has been butthurt ever since.
So… the man who is the driving force behind the supposedly impartial investigation against the Patriots has had a personal, public vendetta against the team for the past 15 years. AND he lied and said that the recorded PSI levels of the Patriots’ balls were so low that like the weather couldn’t possibly have been the cause of deflation. Seems kosher.
And another doggone thing, did any official do a sopsuds test on the balls to check for a minor leak? Required on gas plumbing, where lives are at stake. Video, or it never happened!
Just to be pedantic, the under inflated balls were discovered at halftime.
You are indeed pedantic, and I stand corrected.
Except that the head referee, upon discovering the underinflated balls at halftime, should have declared a forfeit right there and then.
Note to self: Any potential customer who mentions inflated balls gonna get twety percent added to their estimate.
The could let each team select the balls for the other teams offensive drives.
Next season the Seahawks play the Packers at Lambeau Field. Date: TBD.
Seahawks fans, be forewarned.
Bob Boyd said...
Read any or all of the articles linked below. I think you will see it differently.
I read two of them. Sharp either doesn't understand football, doesn't understand statistics, or is wildly dishonest. Probably at least two out of three.
I'm not saying the Patriots didn't cheat. But Sharp is detracting from rational discussion of the subject.
I've seen one on the NFL network already. They had three balls, one properly inflated, one over inflated and one under inflated. They had a two former players (one a QB) handle the balls, and both were able to correctly identify all three balls.
Here's the segment that ran just before that.
What good is that? Like lookin' at a vid of the stripper before she takes her top off.
AReasonableMan said...
It doesn't say much for American ethics that most of the major sports have been plagued with cheating scandals.
Diving is against the rules in soccer.
If you weren't reflexively anti-American you might understand that ethical issues are a universal human failing.
Ignorance is Bliss said...
"But Sharp is detracting from rational discussion of the subject."
Please elaborate. I thought his articles were fascinating, but I'm not an expert on stats or football.
I'm not a Pats fan, but when this thing started I was defending Brady in discussions saying he'd have too much to lose by cheating. After I read Sharp I decided I was wrong and something was going on.
Americans think Pats cheated, rooting for Seahawks.
Not this American.
If you weren't reflexively anti-American you might understand that ethical issues are a universal human failing.
Should we mention the incessant corruption hellhole that is IOC?
How about the Japanese sumo scandal?
The Seahawks, like the Patriots, are playing in their 3rd Super Bowl in the last 10 seasons.
The Seahawks are 1-1 going into Sunday's game and the Patriots are 0-2.
The Steelers have also been to three Super Bowls in the last 10 seasons. They are 2-1.
The Giants have been to two Super Bowls in the last 10 seasons and are 2-0.
If the Patriots win on Sunday, they will be tied with Seattle for the third best time in the NFL for the last 10 seasons, behind Pittsburgh and the NY Giants.
If the Seahawks win, they will be tied with Pittsburgh for the best team in the last 10 seasons, and the Patriots will be the eighth best team, behind the Steelers, Seahawks, Giants, Colts, Saints, Ravens, and Packers.
Bob Boyd said...
Ignorance is Bliss said...
"But Sharp is detracting from rational discussion of the subject."
Please elaborate.
Here's a start:
Based on the assumption that fumbles per play follow a normal distribution
Why would one assume a normal distribution 1- for anything, and 2- when you're examining perhaps the most successful football team over the given time period- clearly on outlier?
Belichick is quite familiar with the importance of turnover differential on success. Pesonnel decisions, offensive schemes, everything revolves around not losing the football. Ask a (former) Patriot how important fumbles are to Patriots teams: The fact that one can reasonably predict whether or not a team will win based only on the team’s location and turnover margin is a very strong result. The results of this paper tend to support the claim that winning the “turnover battle” in a game is a reliable predictor of eventual victory.
From the author: Could the Patriots be so good that they just defy the numbers? As my friend theorized: Perhaps they’ve invented a revolutionary in-house way to protect the ball, or perhaps they’ve intentionally stocked their skill positions with players who don’t have a propensity to fumble. Or perhaps still, they call plays which intentionally result in a lower percentage of fumbles.
All of these things.
"Big Mike said...
Except that the head referee, upon discovering the underinflated balls at halftime, should have declared a forfeit right there and then."
LOL. Yeah, forget that he has no authority to do so, and the certain riot that would have broke out, and the billion dollar lawsuits.
Dumb.
Ignorance is Bliss said...
Diving is against the rules in soccer.
If you weren't reflexively anti-American you might understand that ethical issues are a universal human failing.
Don't be so paranoid. No one's claiming Italian sportsmen set an ethical benchmark. This being said, even the Italians look down on Lance Armstrong.
Ryan Braun was innocent too. He even stood there and said so. He suggested we all be suspicious of the lyin,' cheatin' sample collector -- who was a Cubs fan!
Lance Armstrong too.
Nope, didn't cheat. Never did.
@ Ignorance is Bliss
"Perhaps they’ve invented a revolutionary in-house way to protect the ball, or perhaps they’ve intentionally stocked their skill positions with players who don’t have a propensity to fumble."
Sharp looks at the stats for Patriots players who have gone on to other teams. These players fumble more after leaving the Patriots. If they were better ball carriers or had learned some new skill in their time with the Patriots the stats should reflect it, but they don't.
In fact, players who played for another team, then the Patriots then yet a third team became worse fumblers after leaving the Patriots than they were before they played for the Patriots.
Sharp admits these stats are proof of nothing regarding Deflationgate.
What he has put together is very interesting. Its all speculation at this point, but its also fun to discuss.
Been a Pats fan since I moved to New England, because they are the team on every Sunday.
Not sure who I will be rooting for Sunday. Probably the Pats.
I am a major NY Giants fan but I will always root for the Packers! Their fans are just like Giants fans! I went to a Packer Giants game in Green Bay and had a terrific time. The fans are very smart they know the game and enjoy it!
Bob Boyd said...
Please elaborate.
In the post on fumbles while a Patriot vs playing for another team there are numerous things that are wrong or misanalyzed.
One of the biggest things that stands out is in the chart of plays per fumble while a Patriot vs plays per fumble after being a Patriot. He treats all plays as being equal, and fails to notice that while Patriots, those players played 58% running plays, and 42% passing, but after played 8% running plays and 92% passing.
He notes, but does not explain how 2 of the 10 players got significantly better after leaving the Patriots.
He claims:
Individual players who played on the Patriots fumbled 25% less frequently before joining New England as they did after playing for New England and then leaving (70 touches/fumble before NE, 56 after NE).
But if you actually look at the individual players, of the 7 who played on other teams both before and after the Patriots, only 3 got worse from before to after, and two of them only got worse because they had zero fumbles before the Patriots ( because they touched the ball so few times that they would not expect a fumble if fumbling at their post-Patriot rate. ) Nobody played significantly better on the Patriots than both before and after. And none of that takes into account the mix of pass/run plays.
I am a major NY Giants fan...
I've been one (except for when they play the Cowboys) ever since Eli and the boys forced New England donate their entire production run of "PERFECT SEASON" t-shirts to third-world orphanages.
People don't like the Patriots because Bostononians...
That doesn't explain the Cowens- and Bird-era Celtics.
In fact, if you look at the 7 players who play for another team, then the Patriots, then another team, here are their combined plays/fumble:
Pre- 43
Pats 76
Post 100
So players got better when they came to the Patriots, and better still after they left.
He only manages to get the numbers he wants by adding in players who only played before or only played after, but dishonestly refers to them as individuals who played before and after.
Belichick (sp?) has already been caught cheating at least once. Pete Carroll cheated at USC and then left them holding the bag and ran to Seattle. Plus he is a "truther".
I wonder if Perry will sing with Elmo. That would be awesome.
Katy Perry and Elmo, brought to you by the number "Two".
@Ignorance is Bliss
What do you think about the initial stats that got Sharp started on this series of articles, the extraordinary rate of plays per fumble?
If New England had a "revolutionary in house way to protect the ball" wouldn't the teams who hired former Pats players have adopted those methods by now? Wouldn't we have heard about these ingenious ideas from sports reporters in game coverage? Wouldn't the stats show the improvement for any team who had acquired a great ball carrier who brought special knowledge from the Pats?
What do you think about the initial stats that got Sharp started on this series of articles, the extraordinary rate of plays per fumble?
I think he offers a number of possible explanations, and for some reason you fixate on the least plausible.
In addition to the ones he mentions, the Patriots might have better strength training for the muscles used to secure the ball. The individual players going to other teams would not necessarily think of it as a key to reducing fumbles, and likely would just go with the strength training recommended by the new team's trainers.
Maybe Patriots coaching comes down harder on you if you fumble in practice, and the other team's coaches place more emphasis on gaining yardage. The players take that emphasis with them ( as shown in their continued good stats ) but their personal emphasis does not effect how others on their new team are coached.
More...
Kick returners like Brandon Tate and Wes Welker will have vastly inflated fumble rates simply because fumble rates on punt returns and kickoff returns are much higher than on regular plays. (A study from Football Perspective suggests that the fumble rate on kickoff returns is 3.1%, while the fumble rate on punt returns is 3.5%. Another study, conducted by Advanced Football Analytics and covering a similar period, suggests that the fumble rate on all run and pass plays is 1.67%.)
If New England had a "revolutionary in house way to protect the ball" wouldn't the teams who hired former Pats players have adopted those methods by now?
I'd theorize it's nothing but ball discipline. If you don't have it, you sit. Then you get sent to another team, where you have more opportunities to fumble.
Shouldn't age and resultant diminished skill account for something? Shouldn't ex players of other teams show more fumbles as well? How do they compare to ex Patriot players? Why are the Patriots examined in isolation conclusive of anything?
@Ignorance is Bliss
Well I gotta take off, bud. Its been fun. You make some great points.
It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out after the Superbowl.
@rehajm
"Why are the Patriots examined in isolation conclusive of anything?"
Its not conclusive. Sharp says as much.
Its like the old saw: Stats are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive. What they conceal is vital.
Shit, I gotta go. I'm late as hell.
Enjoy the game, Bob.
We love being hated.
We are just better than the rest of the country.
tits.
Football for me, being the perfect release of Fascist / Totalitarian Urges.
Honestly, does anyone even think that this whole Self-Called "scandal" doesn't have anything to do with ratings / viewership?
(Cannot wait for Opening Season.)
^^^Opening Season, meaning for Baseball.
Furious-a,
Outside of Boston, who likes the Celtics, even when they had Russell and Bird?
Bird was a great player. But the 80s belonged to the Lakers. The Celtics squeezed in three championships but the Lakers took 5.
It was the decade of Showtime.
I used to hate the Yankees. When I was twelve.
@ Maybee I am disappointed in you. You are usually quite rational. Where do you get your info that Tom Brady was lying? Will you apologize if that is not the case?
Here's an idea. How about the Packers allowing a webcam at an empty Lambeau Field during the big game. It would be my choice over the game.
@mccullough
Boston Celtics championships in that era:
1986,
1984,
1981,
1976,
1974,
But I guess of you jigger the endpoints enough... what are you? A climate scientist?
Tim,
Furious referenced the "Bird-era." Bird played from 1979-1992. The Celts won during the "Bird-era" in 1981, 1984, and 1986.
The Lakers won during the "Bird-era" in 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, and 1988.
People outside New England refer to this as the 1980s. The few non-deluded Celtics fans quietly acknowledge this time as "the Magic era."
Well, the decade prior to Showtime was certainly a Celtics era. You can come up with all the extra qualifications you like, but it was pretty good times for Boston fans.
I didn't even follow the NBA but I happened to be living in Denver and the Laker fans there anointed me the token Celtics fan in the early 80s, so I was more on the tail end of it all, but real Celtic fans enjoyed more than a decade of great teams. Then the Lakers took over. You can pretend that the decade of Celtic dominance never happened by insisting they had to include a particular player if you like, if it makes you feel better, but I don't see how pointing out verifiable facts makes me "deluded."
Here's a reason people like Aaron Rodgers.
"MadisonMan said...
Here's a reason people like Aaron Rodgers."
LOL Seriously?
People, Curious George, not bitter Bears Fans.
"MadisonMan said...
People, Curious George, not bitter Bears Fans."
Packer fans here in Milwaukee laugh at those dumb promos. He's partnering with David Gruber, an ambulance chasing sign and settle attorney. "One call, that's all".
People like Aaron Rodgers because he's a good quarterback. That's the only thing you really know about him. The rest is just a production.
"People, Curious George, not bitter Bears Fans."
The bitter part is obvious, but Curious George is a Bears fan?
I wish the Patriots were playing the Packers because deflategate would have to die considering that Rodgers likes to juice the ball too and we could just enjoy the game.
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