Althouse: "And you think it's possible for the State to navigate between not enough minority members in the district and too many minority members in the district without taking race into account."

November 14, 2014

"And you think it's possible for the State to navigate between not enough minority members in the district and too many minority members in the district without taking race into account."

Said Chief Justice John Roberts at the oral argument Wednesday in Alabama Legislative Black Caucus v. Alabama. (I'm quoting from the transcript, but here's a news article summarizing things.)

The lawyer for the appellants, Eric Schnapper, fought for coherence (and it really is hard to be coherent in the difficult-to-navigate area of law that is redistricting). He brought up a case (Easley) that said "that the fact that race was a factor in drawing a district doesn't trigger strict scrutiny" but that there should be strict scrutiny if "race was the predominant, overriding purpose."

Roberts came back: "So... they have to navigate between too many and too few, but without race being the predominant consideration."

37 comments:

dd said...: If African Americans voted for the national parties in the same percentage as the general population then a lot of the incentives for gerrymandering would go away!! Just tell them to stop voting Dems all the time!!!!; 11/14/14, 10:29 AM
traditionalguy said...: Roberts is meddling into the area of legal fictions where most SCOTUS doctrines find their support.

Does this mean Roberts is gearing up to be a realist on the King v. Burwell case?; 11/14/14, 10:35 AM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: We have entered the era of liberal incoherence laid bare. Competing factions only form a cohesive force as long the members believe their needs are being served, and laws written by men are no different. Roberts highlights one point here but they are legion.

"Progressivism" will splinter into Feminists vs. gays vs. labor vs. blacks vs. Latinos vs. communists. So many of these separate groups find the others' ideas so hideous that will not be able to abide. As the famed economist Julian Simon was fond of saying, "Things that cannot go on forever won't."

If you disagree with my "groups" premise above then consider these: due process vs. college kangaroo courts; free speech vs. campaign finance and free speech vs. speech codes...etc.; 11/14/14, 10:51 AM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: We white folks are always being told that we can have no idea of what it is like to be Black in America.

Nevertheless,I keep trying to.

Here is a recent 'big difference' I imagined.

As a White person, I feel no pressure whatsoever, from my fellow Whites, to be a certain way. I can like the type of music I want to like (from a VERY wide variety), I can be studious, or not, I can openly support law enforcement, or not, I can speak with clear diction, or not, I can dress how-so-ever I please, etc.

I don't think the same freedoms exists, at all, for Blacks. Their culture does not let them. It is an oppressive group-think/conformity to community 'standards' sort of world, and, frankly, though at times one surly feels strength in numbers, at an individualist and personal freedom level, that must suck.

If you think what I have written isn't true, then explain 95% voting for one Party, in the face of continued tragic results. Only strong cultural group-think pressures can explain that, and, as I said, that must really suck.

If there were such a think as 'White privilege", it would be in White culture I have the privilege of having a wide array of ways to be, without social shunning, or worse.

And that feels like freedom.; 11/14/14, 10:53 AM
Anthony said...: Of course race wasn't the "predominant consideration". Sticking it to the Democrats good and hard was the predominant consideration, and using the requirements of the Voting Rights Act with regard to racial distribution of electoral districts is the weapon.; 11/14/14, 10:57 AM
traditionalguy said...: The easy part of engineering a racial balance to guarantee safe black districts is knowledge that whites will vote for a good black, brown or Hispanic candidate against a white candidate, but so far black voters will never vote for a white candidate running against a black candidate.; 11/14/14, 10:58 AM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: Another shorter way to put what I just wrote, would be to say that few if any other cultures in the world have a pejorative like the invective "you're an Uncle Tom".

So either all other cultures are wrong to omit such a useful concept, or . . .; 11/14/14, 10:59 AM
Lucien said...: What incumbent democrat (who is not just about to retire) would ever come out in favor of anything that diluted the number of presumptively democratic voting minorities in her district, just because she thinks it would give minority voters greater political leverage overall?

Politics don't work like that.; 11/14/14, 11:17 AM
Shanna said...: Of course race wasn't the "predominant consideration". Sticking it to the Democrats good and hard was the predominant consideration, and using the requirements of the Voting Rights Act with regard to racial distribution of electoral districts is the weapon.

This is the dirty little secret, really. The black democrats wanting a majority black district, and republican are simpatico on this goal in redistricting. The more black people you plug into a district, the more you suck out of other districts. Those other districts become more republican, while you have smooshed a huge number of dems into one district. Everybody wins! Except the democratic party itself.

The goal in redistricting from a party standpoint is to get as many mostly safe districts as you can, not a few really, really safe districts.; 11/14/14, 11:21 AM
Grackle said...: Ha ha ha negroes! You asked for it, you got it!; 11/14/14, 11:27 AM
John A said...: The answer to the query is "Yes." In the mid-Sixties I was assigned to the payroll programming for a company. One of the reports sent to the Federal Gov was a breakdown of ethnicity as percentages - while it was illegal for the company to ask. This has, of course, changed and the question is apparently required rather than banned.; 11/14/14, 11:34 AM
n.n said...: The diversity policy is institutional discrimination of individuals. Besides, aren't we all just a uniform clump of cells? Minority representatives is an oxymoron in the diversity dialectic.

How can people who treat human life as interchangeable and disposable, throughout its evolution, offer any logical claims to racial, gender, orientation, etc. quotas? The state's secular religion (i.e. moral philosophy) is objectively degenerate and irreconcilable.

There's not enough individual dignity and intrinsic value is a burden. Human life has been reduced to a commodity distributed in a few brightly colored packages. Clump of cells? More like colorful bags of mostly water.; 11/14/14, 11:42 AM
Unknown said...: SomeoneHasToSayIt, I grew up in Kansas, spent the largest portion of my adult life in the South and can say from experience you are not correct in assuming a lack of white-group think. Think of the phrase N-lover. Think of the white voting record since 1964. Over the past 20 years I've seen it start to wane, but I used to get some really odd feedback when (for instance) I had my car fixed at a shop run by black people (because it was cheaper).

To be honest, I saw some spectacularly bad examples of black people in public service in Mississippi(county clerks, drivers license office, etc.) that smacked of political patronage; it did not serve well the movement away from white group think, but time marches on.; 11/14/14, 11:45 AM
buster said...: @ SomeoneHasToSayIt (10:53):

You're being unfair to Blacks. A large part the Black community--a larger part than of the White community--is deeply religious, socially conservative, and tradition-minded. For me at least, it's more common to encounter ordinary good manners in Blacks than in Whites.

The MSM don't portray it that way, but it's true nonetheless.

Sure, Blacks tend to vote reflexively for Democrats. But so did my parents, who came of age during the Great Depression. People can act rationally even when their reasons are wrong.; 11/14/14, 11:49 AM
mikee said...: What race is the child of one Caucasian parent and one African-American parent?

If I am blonde and my last name is Alvarez, am I Hispanic or White?

More importantly, who gets to decide, for the purposes of gerrymandering?

Race in America should be completely ignored by the government, as that seems the fastest way to make it completely ignored by the rest of the country.; 11/14/14, 12:09 PM
MarkW said...: "...so far black voters will never vote for a white candidate running against a black candidate."

Not true. The newly elected mayor of Detroit (Mike Duggan) is white. The opponent he defeated (Benny Napoleon) is black.; 11/14/14, 12:22 PM
PB said...: Discriminating based on race and conjuring up other discriminations to achieve a racial outcome are distinctions without a difference.; 11/14/14, 12:25 PM
PB said...: Diversity is good. Just don't ask them to prove it.; 11/14/14, 12:26 PM
PB said...: Liberals are intelligent, elite people with great ideas. Just don't ask them for results.; 11/14/14, 12:28 PM
Hagar said...: Machines look out for the machine, not you.

Black people are allowing themselves to get screwed by insisting on "black" districts.; 11/14/14, 1:00 PM
kcom said...: Republicans freed the slaves and the Democrats have spent a hundred years buying them back.

(Is that Crack bait?); 11/14/14, 1:56 PM
Drago said...: kcom said...
Republicans freed the slaves and the Democrats have spent a hundred years buying them back.

(Is that Crack bait?)

All objectively true facts are "crack bait" since lies form the foundation of his entire twisted edifice of his world view. Thus, the truth cannot be allowed to intrude.

In that sense, Crack is your typical leftist.; 11/14/14, 2:58 PM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: buster said...You're being unfair to Blacks. A large part the Black community--a larger part than of the White community--is deeply religious, socially conservative, and tradition-minded.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the point I made.

For me at least, it's more common to encounter ordinary good manners in Blacks than in Whites.

Also has nothing to do with the point I made.

The MSM don't portray it that way, but it's true nonetheless.

Sure, Blacks tend to vote reflexively for Democrats. But so did my parents, who came of age during the Great Depression.

Your counter-point would only make sense if you said "But so do Whites", but you can't say that because it isn't true, so again, you haven't touched my point yet.

People can act rationally even when their reasons are wrong.

That one leaves me speechless.

Thanks for trying though. I guess.

Next time, spend a little time thinking about the points in my post. You responded as if you didn't even read it, let alone understand it.; 11/14/14, 3:37 PM
Bob Ellison said...: "...the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

--John Roberts; 11/14/14, 3:38 PM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: Unknown said...
SomeoneHasToSayIt, I grew up in Kansas, spent the largest portion of my adult life in the South and can say from experience you are not correct in assuming a lack of white-group think. Think of the phrase N-lover.

Yeah, one hears that ALL the time. What was I thinking!

Think of the white voting record since 1964.

I did. Absolutely no evidence of Whites voting in a block for one political Party.

Over the past 20 years I've seen it start to wane, but I used to get some really odd feedback when (for instance) I had my car fixed at a shop run by black people (because it was cheaper).

What point are you trying to make there. You've lost me.; 11/14/14, 3:40 PM
Anonymous said...: Good thing I read through the comments before commenting, I was going to say:

"...the way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

--John Roberts"

But Bob beat me too it.; 11/14/14, 3:44 PM
n.n said...: It's so regressive to be reduced to a color.; 11/14/14, 4:30 PM
Brando said...: Once again, how much easier and fairer life can be when you stop dividing us by race and treat people as individuals.; 11/14/14, 4:42 PM
Bob Ellison said...: eric, we gotta hold Roberts to that philosophy.; 11/14/14, 4:47 PM
Jupiter said...: mikee said...
"What race is the child of one Caucasian parent and one African-American parent?"

The one-drop rule, which was useful to slave traders, has been retained into modern times for the benefit of race hustlers. That person you describe is a Negro, and his owner will be along to claim him shortly.; 11/14/14, 6:36 PM
richard mcenroe said...: Unknown, are you saying I betrayed my race by donating to and voting for blacks in the last election?; 11/14/14, 7:02 PM
Sam L. said...: Was the question, "Are You INSANE?" left out, or did he not say it?; 11/14/14, 7:20 PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...: Shanna is quite right. The whole "majority-minority" business has been a cooperative deal between Black Democrats and Republicans, massively cynical on both sides. The Black Democrats get safe seats; the Republicans get districts bleached, as it were. The result is a more Republican Congress. But of the Democrats, more are Black.; 11/14/14, 11:11 PM
tim maguire said...: If Justice Roberts wants to complain about incoherence, he needs to place a mirror in front of him and look to his left and tight. Therein lies the source of the incoherence.

The clients of the lawyer in front of him didn't create this system, they are just trying to work within it.; 11/15/14, 5:27 AM
E Hines said...: We're all Americans, no hyphenations. Full stop.

We each have one vote. Full stop.

Make all Congressional district equal-sized squares, deviating only at State boundaries.

Eric Hines; 11/15/14, 1:19 PM
Anonymous said...: I love reading Rick Hasen's BS writings on this subject. I particular, he attacks Alabama for claiming they're just following Section 5 of the VRA, when they were the plaintiffs in "Shelby County" that got Section 5 dumped.

Ignoring the fact that Shelby County was ruled on in 2013, and the redistricting plan was passed in 2011.

What a hack.; 11/15/14, 2:34 PM
Anonymous said...: I'm looking at the Alabama redistricting maps, and I'm not seeing any real "gerrymanders" (weird winding districts). Lots of nice straight lines, occasional jagged borders, but to this person who's totally ignorant of Alabama geography, the jagged parts look like the kind of things that can easily be justified (following local roads / rivers / etc).

So I don't think the Alabama Democrats and / or "Black Caucus" can win on this one. Because with Section 5 dead, if Alabama has to redistrict they'll probably be able to get the same, or better, results with little difficulty, and no Constitutional problems.; 11/15/14, 2:52 PM