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Not
by Jezebel.
There are so many things wrong... that I blacked out for a second and missed some of the actual good points he probably thinks he's making about fraternities keeping everyone safe by getting drunk guests home rather than feeding them more alcohol or raping them. Like, for example, this paragraph:
And please, look out for each other. Do not let a drunk brother take a drunk female to his bedroom. During parties wet or dry, let the water flow – proper hydration and dilution is the best remedy for over consumption. Make sure there are filled water pitchers everywhere. Press them on intoxicated guests even if they resist.
This paragraph is actually smart and good, except for the part where he calls a woman a "female," as though she were a specimen or the subject of a Chris Brown Tweet. If the whole piece were that paragraph I'd be impressed, but a little curious as to why the piece was only a single paragraph long.
Not
by Forbes:
The Forbes website took the column down almost immediately, telling the New York Daily News that Frezza is no longer a contributor for the site.
Posts
96 comments:
Precious little snowflake almost blacked out over something she read? Why do "feminists" keep making women look so weak and feeble?
As for the topic - drunk women are not held responsible for the choices they make, while drunk men are (yet another implication that women are inferior to men), so the author is correct in stating drunk women as the threat to frats.
Speak-not-easy, unless you wish to cause a flapper.
The Jezebel piece is exactly what is wrong with echo-chamber political thought today. Snarky digs at the original article, without seriously considering or discussing the points it brings up.
Excessive drinking is a serious problem whether the drinkers are male or female, and this idea that female drinkers are passive vessels who have no responsibility whatsoever is about as anti-feminist an idea as I can imagine. College parties are often total messes, excessive drinking is encouraged, and many people (particularly lightweight drinkers and drinkers who have no natural "off switch") are prone to get seriously hurt (or seriously hurt someone else) as a result. A caution to those who enjoy a good party is that they have to be vigilant about this, and be careful who they let in and what those people do.
But the Jezebel writer is so caught up in this "women are victims!" ideal that even raising these issues is offensive and deserving of only the most smug dismissal. Probably because this writer is surrounded by fellow travelers at all times, and has never afforded the occasion to openly discuss anything outside their comfort zone.
In the old days, all the women were chaste while the men were free to cat around.
Cat around with who, exactly?
I don't blame Jezebel. They are just being themselves. I blame Forbes. What pussies !
National Review is no better for firing Derbyshire who was telling an inconvenient truth.
Isn't that Jezebel site the female bitching about non sexy men site? But I repeat myself, but Jezebel and "female" go together now like peanut butter and jelly.
To add to what Brando said, many women at these frat parties drink solely to lower their own inhibitions. Then wake up the next morning full of shame and regret. So they decide they must have been "raped". Utter bullshit.
Women need to start taking responsibility for the choices they make.
Women CHOOSE to get drunk at a party and have sex
Women CHOOSE to have sex knowing that intercourse risks pregnancy
Women CHOOSE to engage in intercourse knowing that birth control is not 100% effective
...and then whine about "choice". How about women join the 21st century and start behaving like adults?
Just like Valenti. She CHOSE to pose like an intern in front of Clinton, then whined about people comparing her to Lewinsky.
Grow up.
Fen said...
As for the topic - drunk women are not held responsible for the choices they make, while drunk men are (yet another implication that women are inferior to men)
Women have choices while men have responsibilities. It takes a special kind of stupid to believe that you should be able to do anything, no matter how reckless, and never suffer any consequences or have to take responsibility for your actions.
I'm under the impression AA is usually seeking some specific kinds of comments; did it work for her this time?
A woman isn't a female? Can you confirm this, Professor?
But it certainly is true that men are the more responsible gender. Look at how many women voted for Barack Obama.
So, finding something to be offended over is more important than the message itself.
Got it.
except for the part where he calls a woman a "female," as though she were a specimen or the subject of a Chris Brown Tweet.
Really, is there any word she would have been happy with?
In the old days, a "female" also was a creature you would take to the vet to have it spayed.
It is the Female Liberation Army themselves who have tried to make "lady" an epithet and insisted they be referred to as females. Mr. Frezza just slipped into the usage of the day.
How about the "female" F16 pilot in the U.A.E. Air Force?
Chopped liver?
I'm really starting to hate all women who write about women.
People need to stop being afraid that telling these special interest women that they are full of shit.
Have you read the bill that's passed in California about campus sexual assault? It is the perfect example of what happens with people being afraid to tell these groups they are insane.
The real feminists have real jobs. These self-loathing Victorians are really nihilists, not feminists.
"Drunk Female Guests Are The Gravest Threat To Fraternities."
Dang. So much for my Beer Pong franchise.
Besides, "ladies" do not pass out on frat-house lawns.
he calls a woman a "female," as though she were a specimen or the subject of a Chris Brown Tweet.
So I'm not the only one who's annoyed by that!
Where was the trigger warning!?!
Fen wrote -
"How about women join the 21st century and start behaving like adults?"
Really? The 21st century adolescence forever. Adulthood is so last millennium.
I reject even the premise that such wilting flowers be allowed to use the term "feminist" to describe themselves. Instead, they should be called "feminist" in quotes, or "fauxminist", or neo-Victorians as they seem to think women should have no responsibility and no standards. They haven't earned the right to use a term that should really be limited to a belief in gender equality and female empowerment.
The neo-Victorians are Leftists first, "feminist" second--their beliefs go hand in hand with this idea that we all need protection from reality. Their use of the term "feminist" to describe themselves coupled with their childish beliefs, endlessly repeated in the media, are the reasons why most American women today prefer to not call themselves feminists.
Only an idiot would assert that the word "feminist" has been given a bad name because of Rush Limbaugh's propaganda (because of course young women are all listening to Rush, right?) or that they're afraid of what the men in their lives would think (because of course men so uniformly hate independent women, in the eyes of the idiot). No--it's because a lot of women do think of themselves as independent and capable, and then see the bleatings of the Jezebels and Feministings of the world and reject that nonsense. It's not actual feminism--defined as empowerment and independence and equality under the law--that they're rejecting.
I understand that Chris Brown has quite a following among females. Bad boys always get the girls.
"Make sure there are filled water pitchers everywhere. Press them on intoxicated guests even if they resist."
Okay, is that ever good advice to coerce guests to drink anything from open, shared decanters, especially at a frat party?
I find the antics of Forbes ridiculous, and Jezebel trprensible. Another one of these politically correct problems that we dare not mention, or we will be well shamed.
Yes, many young women do get liqured up before parties, and that much alcohol could make some of them too blotto to make good decisions later on. Or, more likely, a lot of them are impaired, or soon will be.
For some, it is to get laid. And probably more, just to be social, be able to stand out playing beer pong, etc. But a lot of pre-party drinking seems to be going on these days by those college aged females.
BTW - I do use "female" a lot over "women". I do it for several reasons. One is the age factor - when does a human female become a woman, and no longer is a girl? 18? 17? 16? I have a hard time calling female high schoolers "women". But there is some overlap here. Kids starting college at 17 (I did), or even younger (my partner graduated from HS at 16, and Eugene Volokh apparently started college at 15, etc.) Another is that it should show some maturity, and in this topic, some of these females are acting, if anything, worse than high schoolers. And finally, yes, I often point out the wiring or programming we have in common with lower animals, etc.
Okay, is that ever good advice to coerce guests to drink anything from open, shared decanters, especially at a frat party?
Good point! Although I took more like advice to a bartender for dealing with overly drunk patrons, that could definately be an issue - maybe bottled water would be a better suggestion?
See, if Jezebel could get her head out of her ass, she could offer helpful criticism like that!
BTW - I do use "female" a lot over "women". I do it for several reasons
Female is more concrete, since the gender bender types are trying to make 'women' mean 'anyone who wants to call themself a woman'.
Uh... it's a myth that drinking, or "diluting," with water will sober you up. But I guess if you are drinking water in place of alcohol...
Okay, is that ever good advice to coerce guests to drink anything from open, shared decanters, especially at a frat party?
You had me in agreement, until the last, with that gratuitous swipe at the fraternity system. I will admit my biases here - fraternity chapter president and IFC member some 40+ years ago and a kid who went Greek and recently graduated, along with a surprising number of their HS friends, male and female (possibly as a result of attending private and not public high school).
I passed out drunk at a college party, and when I awoke there was a drunk naked college girl in my bed sucking on my car keys. I said 'Hey! What are you doing? Those are my car keys' but she just kept sucking on them. In a firmer voice I said 'Stop sucking on my car keys, I mean it' but she kept on sucking and sucking, she wouldn't stop sucking my car keys. 'No means No' I said, but she just laughed and said 'Vroom! Vroom! I'm a race car!' and went back to sucking. I sent a letter about it to a magazine but when they published it they changed the words 'car keys' everywhere to 'cock' which I found violating.
As Justice Holmes said, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." The fraternity policy seems like a clear case of keeping the other man's nose far enough away so that I can swing my fist without hitting him.
Moreover, motion is relative to your frame of reference: did the fist hit the nose or did the nose hit the fist? It depends on your physical frame of reference. But either way, as long as fist and nose don't meet, there isn't a problem.
The way I see it, Frezza is trying to effectively communicate with these undergraduates, and embraces their subjective frame of reference to get his point across.
Water may be better than the usual alternatives - coffee and the like. Plus, water is not that obvious - vodka, tequila, etc are quite popular, esp with the co-eds, and it is harder to see that someone has stopped drinking when they switch to water.
Women desire a child-like status of protection as adults.
When men get too drunk and wake up next to someone they are embarrassed to have slept with, they are the butt of jokes. When women do this, they claim they were "raped" and are accorded victim status. This is a prime example of female privilege.
Female privilege is used to jail innocent men as rapists and it needs to stop.
SO, feminazis can prate about "males" as in "male privilege", but using the word "female" is some sort of dehumanizing objectification?
Modern feminists are pathetic, perpetual children.
The term "female" was what we were supposed to use in the military - since "ladies", "gals" and "girls" were too frought.
It is clinical and joyless by design - I thought tat would please feminists.
"Okay, is that ever good advice to coerce guests to drink anything from open, shared decanters, especially at a frat party?"
Good point--but nonalchoholic drinks (waters, sodas) should absolutely be made available and encouraged, particularly for those who are clearly intoxicated. Some sort of food should be provided, and it's not a bad idea to collect car keys.
Whenever we host a party (granted, we're a lot older than the college kids) we encourage most guests to take public transportation or car pool, make sure we have space for drinkers to stay overnight, and always have plenty of decent nonalchoholic options. Sometimes a guest will get too drunk and need to sleep it off, but we've never had violence or damage.
It makes sense for hosts to take these precautions--even if the worst that would happen would be vomit everywhere, and that's usually not the worst that could happen--but guests ought to take responsibility too. Keep an eye on one another, be careful what you drink, make sure you have a safe way to get home. Most people can have a good time, even a silly stupid time, but all it takes is some high end dumbassery on someone's part to cast a pall over the whole thing.
The use of the word "female" as a noun in place of "woman" does strike my ear as...if not quite vulgar, then certainly declasse. But this usage is common enough now that I don't think it makes sense to feign confusion where it appears.
Couple of things going on here. One is that the Greek system has been under attack by the left since I joined in the late 1960s. Yes, there is some elitism in the Greek system, but it has long been the conservatism of the system that rankles the left that has taken such iron clad control over academia. At a lot of schools, Greek life has survived only because so many alums have threatened to close their check books if the Greek system is eliminated at their alma mater (and, yes, former Greeks are, most often, the strongest supporters of their schools as alums, as they were as undergraduates). Trying to tie co-eds drinking themselves into insensibility and regretted sex allegations to the fraternity system is just one more way of trying to do what the campus left has been working on since the late 1960s.
Another part of this is that fraternities are elitist, at least from some points of view. This though means that a lot of co-eds want to attend their parties in order to hook up with alpha males. Or, at least put themselves in a situation where they will more likely meet such in a social situation.
Yeah, female is more generic and less specifically human than, say, woman.
But isn't "female" the root of "feminist?" Oh the irony.
I prefer "female". It's a way of getting around the whole "girl" v "woman" issue. I don't see it as dehumanizing at all more along the lines of "She" as in " the necessary Other".
My frat buddy and I were drinking and naked while we waited for the college girl on the bed to sober up to see if she would provide consent, we are respectful that way, but boy was she passed out. As we were waiting my buddy's erect penis brushed against my ass and I said 'Hey! Watch it!' and he said "Sorry, it was an accident." But then his penis brushed against me again and the next thing I know it was in my ass, back and forth, back and forth. I said 'Hey! Watch it - I mean it!' and he said "Sorry, it slipped' but it kept going back and forth and back and forth. At that point the girl woke up and gave her consent but my buddy had already came and I needed a shower. I sent a letter about it to a magazine but when they published it they changed my buddy into a girl with a strap-on, which I found violating.
"There are so many things wrong... that I blacked out for a second and missed some of the actual good points . . . "
The vapors are back in style. Oh pity the poor woman. Dear, dear thing.
I prefer "female". It's a way of getting around the whole "girl" v "woman" issue.
Agreed, when discussing issues of gender I usually opt for “male” or “female” myself for the same reason although it seems to me that issues surrounding gender have less to do with a person’s sex than their maturity and whether they believe that if you want to be respected as an adult, you need to act like an adult and accept responsibility for the consequences of your choices.
For pretty much anyone today who calls themselves a “feminist,” the answer seems to be “no.”
I suppose Penisless People is offensive. When you tell a Penisless Person to GFY, that is cruel...like calling the handicapped cripples is cruel.
My advice is to take two fifths of hundred proof vodka and worry about who to blame for all of the cruel bad words in the morning.
and 110-pound ladies should not try to go drink by drink with 200-pound frat brothers.
I was in my dorm room studying for exams and masturbating into a sock when this beautiful college girl walked in, smiling. I had seen her on campus for months, but never had the courage to speak to her, and now here she was, right before me! She then said 'I have something MUCH better than an old sock' and then handed me a plastic vagina sex-toy and left. I sent a letter about it to a magazine but when they published it they changed the plastic vagina sex-toy into a sock, which I found violating, especially the hand-puppet aspect of the sock.
Bruce Hayden said...
BTW - I do use "female" a lot over "women". I do it for several reasons. One is the age factor - when does a human female become a woman, and no longer is a girl? 18? 17? 16? I have a hard time calling female high schoolers "women". But there is some overlap here. Kids starting college at 17 (I did), or even younger (my partner graduated from HS at 16, and Eugene Volokh apparently started college at 15, etc.) Another is that it should show some maturity, and in this topic, some of these females are acting, if anything, worse than high schoolers. And finally, yes, I often point out the wiring or programming we have in common with lower animals, etc.
When does anyone - male or female - become an adult? It seems to depend on the context. Movie theaters often charge kids as young as 12 adult ticket prices. A male has to register for the draft at 18 (but females don't). You can join the military without your parents' permission at 18 but you can't legally buy alcohol until you're 21. You can vote at 18 and enter into legal contracts but still have to refer to your parents' income for student loans and tuition assistance.
To me, no one is fully an adult until they're completely responsible (and held responsible) for all of their needs and decisions in life. You can be 30 and living with your parents but that doesn't make you an adult in my opinion, barring special circumstances like handicap or illness. You could be 18 and earning your own income, living in your own place, paying your taxes, and doing all of the other things needed in life and be fully an adult in my opinion. It's less a matter of age or biology than the acceptance of responsibility. If your parents are still paying your way through college, you're aren't really an adult. If you're taking on the financial obligations for your own education, then you're behaving in an adult manner.
IMO those young college students (often female) who behave irresponsibly and insist they should suffer no consequences aren't really adults in my eyes. They're idiots.
Uh... it's a myth that drinking, or "diluting," with water will sober you up. But I guess if you are drinking water in place of alcohol...
Is it? Even so, surely drinking water instead of alcohol helps get you in the direction of sober?
You had me in agreement, until the last, with that gratuitous swipe at the fraternity system.
I think it really depends on the fraternity. If you go to the school, you probably know which ones have terrible reputations and which ones are perfectly fine. And of course, things like watching your drink are universal, whether you are at a frat party or a bar/club.
Larry J
...When does anyone - male or female - become an adult?...
I think, for me, it was when my kids were born. I was 31 at the time.
I did do a lot of adult things before that, but having kids does cause you to grow up (or not, then pity the kids).
==============================
It's a common argument that women and blacks are treated like children, not responsible for their actions in the way that men are.
The author had it coming. A man would have to be brain-dead to think he could write anything on this topic and keep a writer job.
There will always be many people without a self-preservation instinct who have their lives destroyed by the latest fad. Eventually, some of these idiots will reverse the trend and become "heroes". In the meantime, smart people keep their heads down.
In the current climate, a male professional writer writing anything about women is essentially in the position of a mid-17th-century author writing negative things about the Church.
And that's all very sad and everything, and it's offensive and illiberal and blah blah blah but there's always stupid offensive moronic despots running the world, and smart people stay out of their way.
and 110-pound ladies should not try to go drink by drink with 200-pound frat brothers.
It is maybe worse though - my impression of the original article (quickly deleted in accordance with political correctness mandates) was that one of the problems faced by the fraternity was that some of the co-eds would show up at parties with sufficient alcohol already I their systems that if they weren't drunk already,they soon would be. And, yes,this does apparently really happen. A number of the co-eds start drinking mid-afternoon. We aren't talking beer, but rather mixed drinks and shots, though, my impression is more mixed drinks in the afternoon with the girls,and maybe moving to shots later.
one of the problems faced by the fraternity was that some of the co-eds would show up at parties with sufficient alcohol already I their systems
When I was in school, we used to drink before we went out to clubs and bars. Part of this was to save money, part of it was because you didn't go to a club until 11am/midnight otherwise it was dead. I have no idea what they do now, but this certainly seems plausible. It could also be to avoid the chance of getting a dosed drink, who knows.
Betamax, you are truly inspired today. I always wondered where your creative 'juices' came from. Now I know.
What an idiot the Forbes writer was to think "we need to have a national conversation about this issue" genuinely meant he could air his particular viewpoint. He must not realize what "conversation" means now.
It seems like some women have difficulty putting themselves in men's shoes when thinking about the topic of sexual assualt. Dare I say they lack empathy? From the typical man's perspective, see, he's not a rapist. He doesn't rape, he doesn't condone rape, and he doesn't worry that he'll suddenly start raping. He knows there are men who do, and he certainly wants to prevent that, but he is concerned foremost with himself (as most people are). So when he looks at the current landscape w/cries of rape epidemics, accusitory lectures and articles, and the pronounced tilt of the University system's disciplinary procedures against men, he sees the "threat" differently than women do. He is worried about being wrongly accused of rape! A drunk woman can be a threat to him, and if he is drunk even more so. If his friends recognize that threat and try to help him avoid it, good for them. They are simultaneously helping the woman in that secnario, of course, but it seems like unless that's the ONLY thing we talk about (protecting the woman, her interests, etc) Jezebel wont' be happy. That's not a conversation.
[disclosure - I have not yet read the source articles]
I was still having a drink or so before hitting clubs well into my 40s. But in college, in a fraternity, the house would often provide some booze early if the party didn't involve dinner.
The difference though was that (contrary to Animal House) the co-eds rarely had more than a drink or two,unless they were involved with a guy in the house. You could often tell the difference between the girlfriends and the rest of the women at the parties - they were the only drunk ones (ok, a lot of the girlfriends didn't drink that much either).
This is really the crux of the problem- the co-eds now drinking to excess, sometimes having sex that they later regret,and then try to put the blame elsewhere. Anything countering the feminist narrative here will be ruthlessly suppressed, as was that Forbes article.
That latter reminded me of a story told by a friend of my kid's Monday night at dinner. His first week in college, apparently there was a party, and some co-Ed got herself "transported" (i.e. Paramedics were called). He was a chem major and football player, so didn't have the time to participate. Next morning, early, in the dorm laundry,he was talking to an attractive young woman, and he mentioned this,with some almost scorn. Turns out,she was the one who had been "transported". He never really had time to really party until after football season his senior year (when he was legal). And,yes, that hard work paid off - he is now in a fully funded grad school program (meaning he is paid to do research and go to school,instead of paying to attend, or be a TA like my kid did last year).
Interesting thing to me is that the difference between the lower ranked schools and the most elite,is that kids at the latter mostly didn't drink during the week,and made up for it on Fri and Sat, buckling down again Sun. Going to a private HS, my kid had classmates at most of these schools, and the level of weekend partying was a bit scary.
But in college, in a fraternity
My school wasn't very greek, and I think those frats were very different from frats at big schools so I don't know a lot about them. I do wonder about the sororities involved - I had several family members in sororities and I got the impression they laid out some rules for the 'sisters' and that sorority/fraternity mixing was fairly rule based as well. So I wonder if that plays a role, but my personal knowledge of the details is limited.
Man being held for rape in California. 1.2 million bail. Cops recover deleted texts from womans' phone indicating consensual sex .
Woman had claimed she was attacked by masked stranger with knife, but turns out she was pissed off man wouldn't loan her twenty dollars, and brought her home late.
I agree completely with Hoodlum, etc. The difference though with a fraternity and its members is that they don't just have to worry about their own asses, but also about the fraternity. The academic left, which includes a lot of administrators, have been trying to kill the Greek system for nearing 50 years now, and being able to blame the "rape" "crisis" on fraternities is just not allowing a good crisis go to waste. No matter how little fraternities are the problem here, they will be made a scapegoat, just because they are unwanted by the left, and are available. Far better to blame fraternities,than the co-eds who intentionally get drunk before going out to party, and then get even more inebriated later on in the evening.
My son went on a couple of recruiting trips for college last year, and he immediately ruled out one school because of the crazy amount of drinking. Not the "go to a frat party and have a couple of beers" kind of drinking, but the "get completely obliterated binge drinking/vomit" stuff. He thought some of it had to do with the small size of the school and the relative lack of things to do on the weekends given the school's location. In any case, he didn't think there was anyplace to really hide, as it were, if you weren't into that.
Ms. Valenti hit a nerve when she said that Mr. Frezza remained "creepily involved" with his old fraternity.
Sorry Ms. Valenti but there is a reason for some alumni involvement with their old college fraternity.
Occasionally "adult supervision" is required. Fifty plus years ago I was a member of a local fraternity that wanted to become a chapter of a national fraternity. We weren't on Dean Wurmers doubles secret probation--it was worse than that. The Dean of Students at the college had two sons--they were both in our chapter. Nothing stronger than lemonade was served; our academic standing was the highest on campus. We were being "good boys" to get that national charter.
Well fraternity and sorority chapters--like any other organization that continually renews its members change over time.
After I graduated I had very little further involvement with the chapter, and none at all for 45 years. But last year I was part of an alumni group that was involved in yanking the national charter from my old fraternity chapter. The members of the chapter had become a bunch of drunken bums; there were stories of sexual assaults (not surprising in that the chapter hosted "lingerie parties" attended by drunk female guests.
The chapter was in bad odor with the college--and with the national. An alumni group investigated the chapter and interviewed every active member or pledge. The chapter's national charter was yanked, and 95% of those active members were thrown out of the fraternity.
You know it takes two to tussle between the sheets---and if both parties are liquored up, it can be hard to figure out who's responsible for the situation.
Alumni oversight may be "creepy" in Ms. Valenti's view--but it serves a function. We shut that chapter down because it sullied our name and did not represent what the fraternity was about. Maybe the national will try again on that campus in the next five years or so--or maybe not.
Shanna - a lot of sororities are pretty rule based, and some have a strong "sober sisters" program, where maybe 1/4 or so of the members at a party stay sober and try to keep their sisters from going home with random guys. And it kinda works. The problem is that in real life, a lot of women really do want to get laid when they get drunk (and get drunk for this reason). This is a problem with 20 year olds, and maybe worse for 40 year olds (my partner has numerous stories about this when going out with other women for the night). So, it apparently can get quite hard to dissuade the non-sober sisters to desist. And, yes, sober duty rotates (unless used as a punishment by the sorority - usually for an alcohol related infraction).
That said, there are party sororities, and sororities that are more sober and responsible. Some sororities don't do this, and some do. Ditto for fraternities, of course - I was in a responsible fraternity that had good grades, a lot of community service, and ran a campus escort service for co-eds. My brother was in one that had parties where the bulk of the student body would show up, etc., and only remained on-campus as long as the college president was a brother. Made for interesting IFC meetings.
False accusations of rape more concerning than actual rape perpetuated by frat members on incapacitated women? Hey, I think I've heard this one before!
Men capable of sensibly and knowledgeably discussing sexual assault must be wincing so hard right now.
These are the two lines that did it for me. While not discounting in the least "actual rape" perpetrated by anyone, fratboys included, there are more than a handful of cases in which some guy's life has been irreparably damaged by a claim of rape under circumstances that reasonably suggest something other than "actual rape".
And that damage has been done at the hands of a kangaroo campus court with nothing approaching the due process requirements that should be applied when that kind of damage can be so easily inflicted.
I'm wincing alright. I'm wincing hard because the best advice Frezza could have offered his brothers is to lock the door, tap the keg and then fap into Betamax's sock when he's done with it.
That won't stop the jezebel-types from snarky whining, but it will leave them out in the front yard of the frap-house sucking on their car keys.
- Krumhorn
While it is currently being debated what we can do to reduce the number of rapes, I think this emphasis on changing our "rape culture" has it wrong--firstly, because we don't actually live in a "rape culture"--I can think of no crime, except maybe pedophilia, which carries more of a stigma than being a rapist. Think of it--we have many depictions in reality and pop culture where murderers are even celebrated, but no one celebrates a rapist. There's no such thing as "justifiable rape".
But we would actually do a lot more good in this area by changing our "drinking culture". Not by becoming teetotalers--far from it. But by introducing people at a young age to alchohol, associating it with responsible drinking, moderate drinking, and developing some taste. Then when they're older and on their own, they're not learning it via funnels and binging.
I'm not saying that'd be completely foolproof--obviously some people will have problems with drinking, will overdo it, and will go wild with a bit of freedom. But to the extent we have more responsible drinkers, at colleges and elsewhere, you'll see far less of this stuff--drunk idiots falling out of windows, people getting blackout drunk and only finding out they got raped because someone filmed it, people getting into fights, people vomiting all over that carpet that tied the room together.
Focus on the binge drinking culture and how to alleviate that. Blaming some amorphous sense that society secretly is okay with rapists is pointless.
Well isn't Jezebel a perfect little Stalinist. No dissent is to be tolerated, much less discussed.
Agree with Skeptical. It isn't creepy. Rather, those alums provide important adult oversight, which most campus activities lack.
My house discovered this the hard way. A couple of years before I joined, they had blackballed the son of the head of the alums supporting our house. No more alumni contributions. No free legal help, etc. Took a number of years to rebuild this - mostly with my contemporaries getting far enough along in their careers to step in.
Sexual "assault" isn't the only issue with binge drinking.
Remember the girl in Minnesota who passed out on her front porch in January after a night out with her fellow UofM students? Lost most of her fingers and toes I believe. Now we have the girl at UVA who disappeared after evidently being left by herself at a bar. What the hell were her friends thinking?
At parent orientation for my son's college, the dean of students discussed the drinking issue and sexual misconduct (or complaints about sexual contact, for lack of a better term). He said that in his experience in every single instance, alcohol was involved. He did not go on to say, "tell your kids to quit getting wasted" but did leave the implication out there.
Unknown said...
I'm under the impression AA is usually seeking some specific kinds of comments; did it work for her this time?
9/25/14, 8:00 AM
You mean pro-Jezebel comments? Sorry you're on the wrong blog. If you're more interested in anti-male sentiments, go to Jezebel.
Remember the girl in Minnesota who passed out on her front porch in January after a night out with her fellow UofM students?
Another Darwin-award winner!
I seriously doubt that there is a serious campus rape problem. Campuses tend to be some of the safest places around from actual rape, of the type that is prosecuted by the police and tallied by the FBI. When you track down the sources of the alleged statistics (1 in 4 or 5 co-eds sexually assaulted, etc) you find that almost all of it involves either drunken sex by the women, or ambiguous behavior between males and females who had already been in an intimate relationship. An example we saw recently of the latter was a male staying the night in a female's room. She was tired, so put on her PJs, and climbed into bed with him. They were in somewhat of a sexual relationship. She told him once to stop, then went along the next time he tried. Months later, she was convinced by others that he had sexually assaulted her, and filed a grievance. Imagine if this standard were used with married couples. Which is part of why so few campus "rapes" are ever tried as criminal rape in the court systems.
Another part of the problem is that there are now campus administrators and offices whose primary duty is to prosecute campus "sexual assault". This means that their livelihoods and budgets depend on magnifying this problem, which includes using bogus statistics (kindly supplied by Pres Obama, VP Biden, DoE, DoJ, etc.)
For those who are interested, here’s a screen capture of the full article that was pulled. Read and judge for yourself whether the article was pulled because (a) what the author said was so far beyond the pale it never should have been posted or (b) when reading what was actually written, the critics and the publisher who caved in to them look foolish.
It isn't just that a lot of campuses have serious alcohol problem, but that the females seem to be drinking more proportionally to their body weight than the males in many cases. They get blotto drunk, sometimes get laid, and then sometimes regret it.
My theory here is that slut shaming still exists, and alcohol is the only way for a lot of females to somewhat honorably get laid. Back when I was in college, a lot of the co-eds were looking for marriage, and so much of the sex seemed to involve somewhat committed relationships. But at a lot of colleges and universities today, marriage is not that imminent (there are exceptions, such as BYU and USU in UT). Co-eds are of an age that in previous generations they would already be mothers. There are basic mating drives involved here. Pretending that there aren't is silly, but also politically correct.
Why is all this coming out now? My theory is that it is election season,NAND single women are an important demographic for the Dems, putting Obama over the top in 2012. Remember Julia? The female who engaged in guilt-free, consequence-free sex and procreation? Except, of course, that a lot of women really don't like sex w/o some sort of emotional commitment. Used to be that they mostly didn't engage in pre-martial sex w/o some emotional commitment. Now, if they do, the guys risk getting expelled.
I think this emphasis on changing our "rape culture" has it wrong--firstly, because we don't actually live in a "rape culture"--
Indeed. Neither rape of false accusations are coming from most men or women - decent people are generally appauled at this type of this - and just as we don't tell people they are all murderers because a person like them is a murderer, neither should we tar all women or men with the same brush.
The problem is that when people benefit from something, whether it is in getting sex or money or revenge, there are always going to be a certain subset of the population who will do bad things.
We have a criminal justice system, schools should not be throwing away the rules just because they don't like them. People who are proven to have made false accusations should be prosecuted. People who are proven to have raped someone should be prosecuted. Problem: both of those things are rather hard to prove at times. Which is where prevention comes in. Better to drink less, watch your drink, watch your friends. I think this is what the frat guy is saying, just from the other side. Thanks for posting the actual article, Thorley.
Bruce Hayden said...
I seriously doubt that there is a serious campus rape problem. Campuses tend to be some of the safest places around from actual rape, of the type that is prosecuted by the police and tallied by the FBI.
I mean, I keep asking for trend statistics but I don't get very far. The headlines mostly mention an "epidemic" or an "explosion" or some such, but almost nowhere have I seen actual data to back up that rehtoric. The funny (to me) part is that this is from the ideological Left, who often criticize the Right of inflating the dangers of crime in order to keep the populace afraid and voting for tough-on-crime Repubs (was that not a central premise of one of Michael Moore's movies?). On this issue, though, they seem pretty eager to hype a danger they don't bother to demonstrate. At the same time there's a push from the Left to get everyone in college--of promoting higher education as the main path to success. I think it's Insapundit who jokes about the message that colleges are dangerous hellholes of rape and sexual assault and we must do everything we can to get more young people to attend!
Over the last few decades crime is down generally--quite sharply for some types of crime. Violent crime generally is down. The unbacked assertion that sexual assualt and rape are sharply up should provoke skepticism. What is the cause of this claimed anomaly in this one type of crime? "The rape culture" is not an answer.
It's not anti-feminist to ask people making these claims to show their work.
Thorley - thanks. The article sounds eminently reasonable. I think it should be required reading at all fraternities around the country, along with the fact that it was so quickly pulled, along with the Jezzebel response, to illustrate what these young men are up against.
Having read the article now, I thought his point that drunken rowdy men are often ejected from parties, but not the drunken women, was interesting and maybe could use some exploring.
I suspect if you took a drunk woman and kicked her out of your party and she came to harm, you might be in trouble too.
Indeed, we punish a man for his very ignorance, if he is thought responsible for the ignorance, as when
penalties are doubled in the case of drunkenness; for the moving principle is in the man himself, since he had the power of not getting drunk and his getting drunk was the cause of his ignorance.
"We have a criminal justice system, schools should not be throwing away the rules just because they don't like them. People who are proven to have made false accusations should be prosecuted. People who are proven to have raped someone should be prosecuted. Problem: both of those things are rather hard to prove at times. Which is where prevention comes in. Better to drink less, watch your drink, watch your friends."
Absolutely--I think the push on this is coming from frustration that rape is so difficult to prosecute. Usually the only evidence that someone was raped is the victim's testimony, and victims can be reluctant to testify and their testimony can often be discredited. It sucks when that means a guilty party gets away, but due process safeguards are essential in a free society. Better prosecution and more determined witnesses would help, but it's not an easy bridge to gap.
On the other end of it, more can be done to prevent the crime in the first place--and yes, this often means potential victims have to change their behavior. It's not punishing a victim to suggest they drink responsibly, or keep friends nearby for safety--it sucks that they should have to worry about predators but then this is the same advice men and women are given when they're in sketchy neighborhoods. Preventing a crime in the first place is worth a lot more than prosecuting one later.
I suspect if you took a drunk woman and kicked her out of your party and she came to harm, you might be in trouble too.
Which is probably why he advised calling a cab for women like that, and sending the bill to him, if the fraternity couldn't cover it.
Absolutely--I think the push on this is coming from frustration that rape is so difficult to prosecute. Usually the only evidence that someone was raped is the victim's testimony, and victims can be reluctant to testify and their testimony can often be discredited. It sucks when that means a guilty party gets away, but due process safeguards are essential in a free society. Better prosecution and more determined witnesses would help, but it's not an easy bridge to gap.
We are mostly not talking about legal "rape" here, but mostly some nebulous version of "sexual assault". The basic problem is either that the sexual contact was ambiguous (see above), or both participants were drunk. And, yes, a lack of physical evidence - no rape kit is available weeks, if not many months, after the incident happened. For the most part, it isn't criminal behavior, at least nothing that can be prosecuted, but rather, an affront to feminists and other well meaning fellow travelers.
On the other end of it, more can be done to prevent the crime in the first place--and yes, this often means potential victims have to change their behavior. It's not punishing a victim to suggest they drink responsibly, or keep friends nearby for safety--it sucks that they should have to worry about predators but then this is the same advice men and women are given when they're in sketchy neighborhoods. Preventing a crime in the first place is worth a lot more than prosecuting one later.
We are mostly not talking sexual predators here, but rather, red blooded young adult males and females doing what they naturally do when drunk - which often includes having sex.
It sounds harsh, but the reality when these young women get out of college is that when they get drunk, and then have sex, they will no longer have Title IX officers and the like to prosecute the guys when they don't call the next day. They are being taught the wrong lessons, that they can act irresponsibly, and then punish the guys who go along with their irresponsible behavior.
Yes, I am cynical - I was a young red blooded male at one point in my life, as were most of the guys here. This whole thing is really a War on Men, with the women getting a license to be irresponsible at the men's, sometimes permanent, expense. If the women don't want to have sex that they later regret, they should stay sober unless in a safe situation, and keep out of bed with guys they have slept with, unless they intend to continue the sexual relationship.
Brando said...and yes, this often means potential victims have to change their behavior.
Honest question: are college students today acting like they believe there is a sexual assault epidemic? I know theare are innumerably more campus lectures, safety courses, posters, etc, but have actual college students (women in particular) changed their behavior recently in ways consistent with a belief that they face a great and growing danger? If not should we roll an apparent disbelief by the people with most at risk of harm into our calculation of how much to discount headlines asserting an epidemic?
...or maybe I should have said "I'll be more likely to believe its a crisis when the people who are supposedly at greater risk of harm start acting like it's a crisis." But it's not really my crowd, so maybe they already are.
We are mostly not talking about legal "rape" here, but mostly some nebulous version of "sexual assault".
I was thinking more along the lines of 'date rape'. Where two people have gone on a date and then it's very he said/she said. There may be no alcohol involved at all and you could easily have a case that involves 1. two people who knew each other or had reason to be together but 2. no consent was given and 3. absent clear defensive wounds or other physical evidence that it was rape versus (where the person was threatened perhaps). Even in cases where you have physical wounds, it can be argued that this was merely 'rough' but consentual sex. Those, to me, are the hard to prove cases of rape.
Stranger rape, your classic guy jumps out of the bushes situation, is comparatively easy to prove.
I'm not talking about the people who were already in a sexual relationship and drunk and barely made any effort to say no, or the 'we were both drunk and that should be taken as non-consent even though I was saying yes at the time' kind of things.
"We are mostly not talking sexual predators here, but rather, red blooded young adult males and females doing what they naturally do when drunk - which often includes having sex."
To the extent that that's the case, that's true--drunk sex being something different entirely. But there are rapes and sexual assaults going on in campuses and elsewhere, and though the numbers are inflated to crisis levels, the actual assaults that do take place can often be better prevented.
Shanna - dating is just not that common today on many/most campuses. And, that may be part of the problem. Rather, a lot of students just get together, hang out, and get drunk on Fri. and Sat. nights. And, things happen.
Is there real "date rape"? Sure. Are there predators out there consciously preying on drunk co-eds? Sure. But, much more, it is just two drunk college kids doing what they do naturally.
My theory is that this has become a problem on campuses precisely because dating has become so rare there. How does a co-ed get together with a guy? Today, it seems that she gets drunk first, and then ends up in bed with a guy. Partly, maybe slut shaming still being operational, even on college campuses. Somehow sex when drunk is less shameful than setting out to do so sober and intentionally.
BTW - I have little sympathy for guys who actually do engage in real date rape. I have known some along the way, and mostly, they are loathsome. And, I think, often deserve being in jail. But, it is only going to get worse for these co-eds, when they go out into the real world, where they run into guys whose MO is pushing until the gals give in. At least in college, there isn't the experience difference that you sometimes see later.
To the extent that that's the case, that's true--drunk sex being something different entirely. But there are rapes and sexual assaults going on in campuses and elsewhere, and though the numbers are inflated to crisis levels, the actual assaults that do take place can often be better prevented.
The best prevention though is to stay sober, or if you need to get drunk to socialize, make sure that you have a good support system there to protect you from going back to some guy's room. And, to be careful of ambiguous situations with formerly intimate partners.
dating is just not that common today on many/most campuses
People do still date, even on campus. Maybe there is more group activity, but in theory that should lead to less opportunity for rape not more. In fact, a friend of mine in college (it's been a while, but not that long!) went on a date and the guy tried to rape her but she fought him until he just gave up. So stuff happens.
"Press them on intoxicated guests..."
Isn't that the whole problem?
"At the same time there's a push from the Left to get everyone in college....."
Stolen from some blogger:
"Colleges and universities are places brimming with racism and sexual assault that everybody should be encouraged to attend."
Yanking the article just means people won't talk about the real problem, they'll just talk about the author and demonstrate their moral superiority over everyone by tut-tutting.
I think he makes some great points. Why aren't pre-drinking drunk women called out for their behavior like drunk men?
Female is the approved military appellation for women. It carries no value judgement cargo what-so-ever.
And it wouldn't matter anyway - I'm tired of feminists telling me what words I can use. No longer putting up with that.
My fraternity house once had a "Sloe Gin Fizz" night, with free Sloe Gin Fizzes to young ladies. For those of you not familiar with the liquor, it's purple. The net result was that we had to repaint a room because purple vomit irreparably stained the walls.
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