Alumni email to new law students at NYU:
But just a friendly reminder – we aren’t Columbia. You don’t already need outlines for your classes. You don’t already need to be doing reading assignments (holy shit, seriously enjoy this last part of your summer because you will never have another one). Don’t be the gunner everyone hates before classes even start.
Alumni email to new law students at Columbia:
But here’s some advice — we’re not NYU. Show up to class prepared. Nobody wants to be slowed down while the professors has to wait for your dumb ass to catch up. Everybody will assume you will be ready to hit the ground running. So, no need to be a “gunner” about it. Everybody has already thought of everything you are thinking of asking.
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52 comments:
Columbia because it's Ivy League, though either one nearly guarantees a high paying job. Law school is, above all else, a trade school. You go to the one that will give you the best chance of paying back your loans without decades of sacrifice.
As hiring partner, I've seen this in action. I love getting Columbia grads.
Columbia, 'cause I'd kick all their asses. Without outlines, which are useless.
Oberlin for the microagressions.
As the two schools are roughly the same in their ability to get you a good law job, I'd have to go with NYU because it's got a better location.
Ooh, I didn't know Oberlin was a choice. I'd go there so I can learn what sort of victim I'd like to be.
Yet another example/explanation of the readily observable fact that lawyers are a different species, perhaps a different genus, from other humans.
I'd consider my life a failure if I had to resort to crime to make a living. That's why I'd never become a lawyer and most definitely not a politician.
Amazingly my son attended both Columbia and NYU Law Schools. NYU Law was a better match for him-- less preppy, more supportive, much much better location, the students not so full of themselves and top name professors amazingly approachable.
He graduated from NYU. Job prospects seemed to be excellent at both school.
As Lion of the Blogosphere has repeatedly pointed out, only graduates of the top 14 law schools have any hope of a real law career. The rest will be ambulance chasers, and bankrupt.
It should also be noted that law, like many other paper-pushing professions, has large areas that are subject to automation, and automation is already cutting into the business.
According to Taxprof, the number of prospective law professors is down 26% from 2010:
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2014/08/number-of-prospective-law-profs-.html
All of these students should drop out of law school before they start and do something constructive with their lives (no, I don't mean some non-profit BS).
Tank (a lawyer)
while the professors has to wait...???
Of course, I voted for the Ivy school, but I walk in the door already unimpressed. Even at my no-name school, they tend to get the noun-verb number right.
- Krumhorn
No clue.
Why don't you have a button to vote for Wisconsin?
What's a "gunner"?
Sounds like they should be banned from all college campi by Title IX.
Which one has the hottest chicks? You can count TAs and Professors in this mix along with the students.
Why do both of these sound like they were written by brotastic bros?
Had to make this choice myself back in 2000. Chose NYU.
I chose Columbia on the poll because I did so in the real world (Harvard wouldn't have me). Class of 1968. It doesn't sound as though things have changed that much (although in my day the only thing "Ivy League" about Columbia U was its lousy football team). Being a practicing lawyer is hard, if you want to do it well. Law school should be, too.
Crude may be right that "lawyers are a different species, perhaps a different genus, from other humans". So are doctors, accountants, soldiers, fire fighters, college (and law) profs. In fact, if you're really good at something difficult, you're likely different from those who aren't.
Which one has the hottest chicks? You can count TAs and Professors in this mix along with the students.
Well, it's law school, so it's all relative, but I'm going with...
UCLA.
Columbia by almost 2:1. You have a lot of alpha personalities commenting here, Althouse.
I went to NYU, by the way. I loved living in Greenwich Village… 30 years ago (when it was grittier!).
Anyway, reading those 2 pieces of advice-email, I was more attracted to Columbia (as I think I would also have been back when I started law school, mainly because of the emphasis on everyone being prepared and keeping the class lively.
But on rereading, I don't think the 2 emails are that different. The NYU adviser says you don't need to prepare way in advance, but presumably you have to prepare the right before each class, and the Columbia adviser isn't saying you need to do anything more. Both emails say don't be a "gunner."
The emphasis is different. The NYT person wants to project niceness and a sense of fun. The Columbia person says we're all serious here.
And that's a pretty long-term personality difference between the schools.
But if you are a serious student, the message about gunners is different in an important way. NYU seems to say: We hate gunners because they wreck our casual atmosphere. The Columbia person seems to say: We are all serious and prepared, so strenuous efforts to establish that you are serious and prepared will make you look like you don't realize that.
Interesting comments between West Tesas Intermediate Crude (the one time "marker crude" for pricing in the US oil industry) and The Godfather--Columbia '68.
Professional life's a race; the prize doesn't always go to the hardest working and intellectually most accomplished--but it mostly does.
Those who are really good at complicated tasks are different. A lot of them are humble, but many are not. "It ain't bragging if you can do it."
And a lot of those folks take incredibly long times to become prepared for what they do. A few years back I had some neurosurgery done at UCLA's Ronald Reagan hospital. The surgical team performed a procedure using a new technique they'd developed. They do about 50 of those a year. Three different medical specialties were involved on the team.
As I left the hospital a day or so later, I was walked out by a young daughter just starting his eight year long residency in neurosurgery. He'd already gone through 8 years of post B.S. degree training; four years of med school; a year as an intern, and three years in a general surgery residency.
He was a nice guy; his family had emigrated from Russia when he was 8 years old--he'd actually gone to school in the Los Angeles suburb where I live. He learned English and he excelled at every level in a very competitive environment. And he'll be 36 or 37 years old before he's fully fledged and trained neurosurgeon.
Folks like that are different. That's just the way it is.
From a previous post:
http://m.nationalreview.com/article/386218/madness-2008-victor-davis-hanson
I go to NYU, where the alums understand the concept of the verb agreeing with the subject of the sentence.
Some axioms about law school:
1. Everything you do concerning a class throughout a semester should be with an eye towards a final exam. Nothing else matters.
2. The only worthwhile outline is one you make yourself (see number 1).
3. Go to class and go prepared (see number 1).
4. Do not get into a study group. It is too inefficient, as gossip and chatter take up too much of the group time. Find one compatible person in a class and prepare with them.
5. Raise your hand and answer intelligently and assertively early in a class each semester. You won't get hassled after that by the prof.
6. Remember axiom number 1.
7. Try to enjoy it. Attitude matters.
If these poll results aren't a perfect proxy for the liberal vs. conservative demographics of the readership around here, I'll eat Zeus's collar.
There was some Aztec game where the players had to put a rubber ball through a small hoop using only their hips to guide the ball. It took a lot of focus, concentration and practice to accomplish this feat. As I understand it, the winner of the game was the one chosen for human sacrifice during a festive, religious rite. It was quite an an honor to be so chosen, and the competition was very fierce.
NYU are the most rapacious and compassionless landlords and developers in lower Manhattan. An excellent breeding ground for self-righteous "progressives" who intend to do well by doing "good."
I chose NYU because I went undergrad to Columbia and my mantra the past 20 years has been: not. one. red. cent. more.
"It ain't bragging if you can do it."
Actually, yes, it is. If you can't do it, it's lying.
I chose Columbia based only on those two letters. The letters portrayed NYU as academically unserious and Columbia as academically competitive. A brief spell as a premed was enough to teach me that academically competitive does NOT mean academically serious, but at least there is a chance. Neither letter seemed to show much interest in, you know, actually learning law.
In regards to what Wilber said:
#3 and #5 conflict, at least a little bit. When I was in LS, I did a lot of #5 early each term, and quickly trained my profs not to call on me, which allowed me to get by with briefing maybe half the cases I would have had to otherwise do. Read them, sure, but I knew I wouldn't be called on in class, because I would volunteer for the half I had briefed. Maybe cut into #1 a bit with that philosophy, but don't think so.
But, yes, #1 is key.
Bob - I don't think that the purpose of law school is really to learn the law, per se, but rather how to approach it as a lawyer. There is way too much law to ever learn, and it differs a bit, state to state anyway. Any law that you learn is probably wrong anyway, or should probably be treated that way, which is why you need good research skills to be competent as a lawyer. (I look up plenty of stuff even in my specialty, JIC).
That said, you do need to know the basics, of sorts, to get licensed - e.g. the basics of torts, contracts, criminal law and procedure, civil procedure, and Con law. You should just not trust the specifics of even those when you get into practice.
I will admit that those two schools are near the bottom of any list I would ever make. NYC? I might put UCLA down with them, but I would likely pick schools outside those two cities long before I would exile myself in either for three years. I might even put Chicago and Detroit above them (though a friend was shot at in the latter in LS).
Which school will prepare you better for being a lawyer. I don't mean the ability to cite to obscure opinions of the Water Court of East Brunswick, but the ability to deal with clients as human beings, and make a living out of it.
Law school is fine as an intellectual exercise, but you need people skills to succeed in the business of being an attorney.
My god, life is too short to visit New York, let alone live there for three years.
Get your Ph.D. in chemistry at Columbia then do Foredom law school to save money and access evening classes, like my last girlfriend did who is now Google NYC’s senior Adwords attorney. You don't need a top school if you also have a technical background.
Isn't NYU a safety school?
Law School without gunners, what's the fun in that?
You can't have gunners in NYC. Concealed carry is illegal.
Which one is cheaper?
If they're roughly the same, I'd choose the more easy-going NYU. You only attend these schools for the credentialing anyway-- why put up with a bunch of type-A mouth breathers who think there's a competition for the best outline? These are the same pinheads who'll get out and think effective trial prep is about making the most binders.
We have two distinguished NYU grads here in Houston: Sr. U.S. District Court Judge David Hittner and UH Law School Prof. Irene Rosenberg. Don't know any Columbia grads around here of any note.
I picked Columbia not because it is the best school - NYU obviously is - but the advice to be ready when classes start is the right advice.
I followed this advice (or rather stumbled on it) when I arrived several days early and saw the required reading posted. I did it before class every class thereafter. After 1st semester, I was #1 in the LLM (tax) program -- I give the advance study full credit for that result.
Got in both. Went instead to Texas. Had I been forced to choose between those two, though, and had I been able to afford either, then I'd have chosen Columbia.
@ Skyler, who wrote (8/26/14, 2:23 PM): "You can't have gunners in NYC. Concealed carry is illegal."
Metaphorically, however, "concealed carry" does fit the two emails. The point of literal concealed carry is to avoid alarming those around you with the gunpowder-and-lead firepower implied by your hardware. Both of these emails, as Prof. Althouse points out in a comment above, are telling students that there will be competition (at least once school starts), but both are pretending to discourage their incoming students from alarming their fellows with the intellectual firepower implied by their aggressive and showy performances.
The truth is that at either school, and almost certainly at every Tier One law school today or in the last 50 years, there are always gunners. There is only an inexact and rough correlation between being a gunner, on the one hand, and on the other, being top-of-the-class/landing the best job; but the correlation is nevertheless largely positive. In the top of most law school class will be a mix of gunners who actually had the substance to back up their showy displays, along with a handful of people who only spoke when called upon but also had lots of substance.
The NYU email is real; the Columbia email is a spoof of it.
Students at both schools have one major thing in common. They were all rejected by Yale law school.
No, you don't have to go to law school. Go to engineering school instead.
Joined high-tech firm in 1989, cashed out stock options, retired in early 2010 at age 51... case closed.
Proud NYU '05 grad. Fun fact: There's a lovely plaque right in the center of Vanderbilt Hall, which recognizes the top student in each class going back a few decades. Right at the top of that list? One Ann Althouse.
I went to NYU for grad school. If I HAD to go to law school, I would pick just about ANY law school other than NYU.
Hard to say. On the one hand, it's tempting to say that people who conspicuously overprepare are substituting effort and conscientiousness for actual insight. On the other hand, there's a sneaking suspicion that the practice of law is all about overpreparation and the substitution of effort and conscientiousness for actual insight.
So I guess my answer is I'm glad I didn't go to law school.
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