That's an observation, and it may be true or false or true much/most but not all of the time, but what I want to know is: Who has made this observation? Where did this idea originate? What famous names do you associate with this idea?
Meade and I were talking about it in the context of the Henry Rollins apology, the subject of my first post of the day. Meade hadn't read the post yet, and I was explaining that Rollins — in response to angry mail that presumably accused him of not understanding depression — revealed that he suffers from depression, and that looked to me like an effort to claim the empathy that is extended to suicides.
Henry Rollins has very much of a tough-guy, hyper-masculine image, so it's interesting that he's requesting that we see him as a victim of depression, as a man who really feels terribly sad, worthless, and — despite all the muscles — drained of energy. Meade made the observation that expressions of hyper-masculinity are covers for weakness and asserted that he was the first person to notice that, back in 1957. I said that's like looking out your window and saying it's a nice day when everyone else is looking out their window and seeing it's a nice day. There's no vector from Meade's 1957 observation into the minds of all the other people who think expressions of hyper-masculinity are covers for weakness, but Meade's claim was comic and really only meant that he arrived at the observation independently.
I feel that the observation is quite old and widely embedded in the culture, though not widely enough to dissuade all males from going hyper-masculine. If everyone knew that hyper-masculinity would be interpreted as weakness, who would do it? That's a secondary question here, though, and the tertiary question is whether the observation is true. The primary question, the one I'm hoping you'll answer, is: What are some non-Meade sources of the observation?
August 24, 2014
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I don't think hyper-masculinity can be perfectly attributed to some kind of weakness. I think it can be attributed to certain men who pump up their hyper-masculinity.
I had a fraternity brother who fit the bill. He worked out a bunch, was pretty big, and carried himself real tough. Deep down he was scared and uncomfortable with himself thought. It was just obvious.
I got in a fight with him (my only fight after the age of like 9) after he and another guy tried to haze some of our pledges during initiating week (beyond what had already gone on). He was twice my size about, and yet one kick to the chest and my intent to about kill him brought his hyper-masculinity to a screeching halt.
He was a paper tiger.
Meade made the observation that expressions of hyper-masculinity are covers for weakness and asserted that he was the first person to notice that, back in 1957.
There goes Meade again, thinking he was the first to get a Super-Atomic Wedgie in the boys locker room.
Max Eastman wrote the following in "Bull in the Afternoon", a review of Ernest Hemingway's Death in the Afternoon:
"Come out from behind that false hair on your chest, Ernest. We all know you."
Yes its a common observation and belief. However to take it a bit further - wouldn't it apply to anyone who exhibits any "excessive" outward characteristics? Its a common observation that anti-gay people for instance are harboring inward proclivities to homosexuality. That's a cliché often used to push back against anyone who expresses opinions in conversations regarding homosexuality.
So then you could say that anyone super-nice women are in reality harboring anti-social ungenerous feelings that they're compensating for?
This is a bit of a circular argument - one that people who - without evidence, use to the attack others.
Re: What are some non-Meade sources of the observation?
Junior High. Had a hyper-masculine friend I met during the summer (he was new to the area, Mom, no Dad), did various hi-jinks together that young boys do when there isn't anything to do, really.
When school started he realized I was one of the 'smart' kids, not one of the 'tough' kids. Decided to impress the girls by picking on me at the bus stop, then the occasional push. Mom said it wasn't worth fighting over, he'll get tired and move on. Nope.
Finally asked my Dad if it was okay if I got into a fight with him; Dad then had me box his outstretched hands (Dad boxed while in the Marines), i.e., yes to my question.
Met the boy at the bus stop, he pushed me and I told him pushing was for girls, throw a punch and I will fight you back. He didn't know how to react to this, I kept telling him to throw a punch, dude, and the girls started laughing at him. I was smart but I wasn't small, and he backed down.
I made a point of 'Mom, no Dad' earlier: not with a wide brush, but I think a lot of boys raised without Father Figures try to emulate a Hyper masculine pose, but are afraid inside because they know it is only a pose. But then there are the 'Mom, no Dad' Hyper-maculine guys who actually are bad-asses; lost a tooth to one.
Henry who?
Credit for the broad concept of "compensation" seems to belong to Alfred Adler.
http://pws.cablespeed.com/~htstein/qu-comp.htm
President Obama is the avatar of this core belief. He has ridiculed Putin for his hyper-masculinity, saying that his actions in Ukraine belie weakness.
And when the administration relaxed the sanctions on the Iranian regime, anyone who pushed back was accused of wanting a war.
Oh please. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
I met Rollins once briefly in Zurich, Switzerland before one of his shows. He struck me as just an insensitive asshole rather than being hyper-masculine.
That being said, why does Althouse consistently only single out the hyper-masculine for scrutiny? Why not include the other extreme, the "hypo-masculine," perhaps personified in extremum by Chelsea Manning?
I made a point of 'Mom, no Dad' earlier: not with a wide brush, but I think a lot of boys raised without Father Figures try to emulate a Hyper masculine pose, but are afraid inside because they know it is only a pose.
I've noticed the same thing. I tend to think that it has a lot to do with them picking up cues on "how to act like a man" from whatever boyfriends come in and out of the mix.
I remember getting the idea from my WWII vet father. He and his contemporaries always seemed to me to look down on such behavior. Also, I grew up in the South.
In that culture being a stable provider for your family was considered to be much more manly that any sort of display of bad-assery.
It is mostly true that hyper-masculinity is an advertisement of one thing to hide a deficiency elsewhere. What is usually true about those most able to handle themselves is no need to advertise.
But with 6BN people in the world, there are exceptions to these generalizations in sufficient numbers that one should proceed cautiously.
Imagine the peer pressure of being hyper-masculine and inert weakness. It would be the demise of the Gang.
"There goes Meade again, thinking he was the first to get a Super-Atomic Wedgie in the boys locker room."
In 1957, Meade was 3.
"Yes its a common observation and belief. However to take it a bit further - wouldn't it apply to anyone who exhibits any "excessive" outward characteristics?"
Yes, and if so, answer the primary question. Freud? Shakespeare?
Fee Fi, Fo, Fum...
And, The Wizard of Oz.
Oh,
Algore physically challenging Bush in debate..
Weiner with pix of his body.
Obama shooting hoops?
Dukakis in the tank....
And the beat goes on
"Credit for the broad concept of "compensation" seems to belong to Alfred Adler."
Thanks!
Yes, "compensation." A useful word.
I was going to add to my previous comment: Years ago we used to say: "He had an inferiority complex."
I decided to Google the term first and find the source and Adler's name came up there too.
RE: "Yes, and if so, answer the primary question. Freud? Shakespeare?"
Caveman Bloog. Drew himself in all the cave art as heroically vanquishing the wild beasts, but actually drew the line at rabbits.
Hyper-masculinity is often found in internet expression, too. Sometimes even in comments. Seen it once or twice.
Wikipedia:
"An inferiority complex is a lack of self-worth, a doubt and uncertainty, and feelings of not measuring up to standards. It is often subconscious, and is thought to drive afflicted individuals to overcompensate, resulting either in spectacular achievement or extreme asocial behavior. The term was coined to indicate a lack of covert self-esteem. For many, it is developed through a combination of genetic personality characteristics and personal experiences."
Look how much that matches the symptoms of depression.
"Classical Adlerian psychology makes a distinction between primary and secondary inferiority feelings: A primary inferiority feeling is said to be rooted in the young child's original experience of weakness, helplessness and dependency. It can then be intensified by comparisons to siblings, romantic partners, and adults. A secondary inferiority feeling relates to an adult's experience of being unable to reach a subconscious, fictional final goal of subjective security and success to compensate for the inferiority feelings. The perceived distance from that goal would lead to a negative/depressed feeling that could then prompt the recall of the original inferiority feeling; this composite of inferiority feelings could be experienced as overwhelming. The goal invented to relieve the original, primary feeling of inferiority which actually causes the secondary feeling of inferiority is the 'catch-22' of this dilemma. This vicious cycle is common in neurotic lifestyles."
Here's a picture of Rollins as a child. And here's Henry Rollins before he went hyper-masculine, with more of a Jim Morrison look.
"I think a lot of boys raised without Father Figures try to emulate a Hyper masculine pose, but are afraid inside because they know it is only a pose."
I think this is important although I'm not sure about the "pose" part. They think this is how men act and are willing to shoot or stab or even die to prove it. This is the root of a lot of black on black crime in the inner city. It's probably part of the whole Muslim thing. It's a "shame-honor" culture.
Read The Closed Circle by Pryce - Jones.
"Oh please. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
Sorry, we are doing snakes this weekend. Snakes are the prevailing phallic symbol. Stay on theme.
Without inferiority complexes the internet would be much quieter.
"That being said, why does Althouse consistently only single out the hyper-masculine for scrutiny? Why not include the other extreme, the "hypo-masculine," perhaps personified in extremum by Chelsea Manning?"
Because a blog post normally requires a tightened focus. I like that other topic and have some things to say about transgenderism that do flow from this post, but the answer to your "why not?" is: We can't talk about everything at once, and I get too many commenters who respond to my topic by saying: But that reminds me of another somewhat related topic. And it's especially bad when you impugn me for ignoring your preferred topic. Even more so when you assert (falsely) that I never cover the other topic.
In short, I call bullshit.
People who name themselves "Snake" might have inferiority complexes. Except for Snake Plissken. He had an eyepatch.
NB. The existence of the counterfeit does not negate but rather establishes the existence of the genuine article.
A mean face is not masculine. And exercising muscles with free weights does not show that a man has been trained to fight. Those are like the barking dogs that never bite.
The sign of a trained fighter is cold eyes silently tracking of your movements and a fearlessness to attack.
I am defining hyper masculine as a practitioner of effective aggression. Is there some other reason to worry about them? Is harshness of facial look or voice something to fear. Why?
The least masculine position is: posing as masculine.
It's not masculine to pose.
What is this love affair with irony? If someone is hyper-masculine, he's actually weak. If someone hates gay people, he secretly wants to engage in gay sex. If someone is a priest, assigned to protect the flock, he secretly preys on little boys and girls. If someone professes to be devoutly religious, he probably engages in the most depraved activities behind closed doors. If someone is a cop whose duty is to protect and defend, he probably wants to kill people and deprive them of their liberty. Ugh. So simplistic and corrosive. (I think it all comes from another love affair-- with Freud.)
Althouse replied: ...but the answer to your "why not?" is: We can't talk about everything at once, and I get too many commenters who respond to my topic by saying: ..
I understand that we shouldn't discuss both extremes at once.* But my question was why not ever? I've read you for a long time now and I don't believe you're fine tuned your laser-like scrutiny on the "hypo-masculine" and if you did so obliquely, you did so in a positive and sympathetic way.
So bullshit back.
_______________
*A pejorative term like "hyper-masculinity" should allow the existence of its antonym, "hypo-masculinity."
Boy am I lost. Freud? Shakespeare? Where was that in test?
I think it's more of a compulsion than a strategic decision. He likely battled his own self-worth and depression issues by being very drill sergeant with himself, very into fitness and psychological toughness, then he would harshly judge others who failed to meet his own standards because his own psyche couldn't allow for any wiggle room or off the cliff he'd go. He was trying to assert what control he could, but unfortunately, with clinical depression, it never totally works.
But for anyone else looking in, it's an unnatural personality that likely didn't grow out of anything happy. Natural personalities are easy to wear by definition.
This is instinctual stuff people could pick up on in the playground before they knew the psychological terms.
I'm curious if it's easier for women to make that call since generally, natural masculinity is attractive to us and hyper-masculinity is not, whereas guys might just see some guy they admire or who seems to have it all together and then try to clumsily ape it (as it were).
I nominate Inspector Clouseau.
Imitating intelligence and imitating male aggression are both acts that seem to be done best when the hypocrite actually believes them himself.
If you grow up in a sketchy neighborhood, it is sometimes useful to project the image of someone who might become a psychotic killer if pushed too far. On the other hand, that image is not productive in job interviews. Hyper masculinity and docility both have their uses. The trick is in their application.
Does anyone make the effort of putting some thought into and questioning the existence of the term simply because it is being used and because may understand how it is being used? That doesn't make it valid. That does not explain the fact that the term was created or came into the larger discussion in the 80s. Since then its definition and usage has changed. Does it really have a negative connotation.
Are the "Fast and Furious" films considered hyper-masculine movies...How about the TV series "24", "Sons of Anarchy" and "Justified" are the they considered hyper-masculine television Shows? Anything that takes traditional masculine or male characteristics and highly exaggerates them is hyper-masculine ( muscle cars, sports, physical combat, extreme sports).
Bullies are mostly cowards hardly to be considered masculine or hyper-masculine. I’m not sure what Meade is referring to but 1950’s blowhards with a tough guy act were phony then and they are phony now. Where I was raised in the South such behavior used to be considered just very low class behavior.
I guess I'll continue with my line of reasoning as I've lost the narrative somehow. I find that people that accuse others of "over compensating" are themselves exhibiting - to one extent or another - some kind of profound anxiety about what they are accusing the others of.
Any reason "hyper-masculinity" should be any more pejorative a term than "hyper-femininity"?
When masculinity is marginalized, hated and mocked, the hyper-masculine must be even moreso.
@RLB_IV
I would say "no" on "Justified" just because I like it. ;) We have, however, nicknamed it "killie" as in that's kinda "rapey" due to the cartoonish levels of violence.
So, why don't we examine Timothy Olyphant's swimmer's body as a metaphor (Yes, let's do that.) It's what I think of as naturally masculine body that one gets from A. sitting around stewing in natural levels of testosterone B. roofing C. water sports
IOW, it doesn't have the artificial 'roided out look of the robo-cop. Translate that to personality or plot line, and there you go.
"A pejorative term like "hyper-masculinity" should allow the existence of its antonym, "hypo-masculinity.""
What's the motivation for a man to pose as less masculine than he really feels inside?
I don't see the parallelism. You're undertheorized.
Re: "What's the motivation for a man to pose as less masculine than he really feels inside?"
When he is a black man stopped by a white racist cop with a gun. I may be channeling.
Anton Newcomb of the band Brian Jonestown Massacre wrote a limerick proposing that Henry Rollins's hyper-masculine persona masked his homosexuality, as well as unimpressive musical ability.
@SOJO
I never considered body type… interesting thought.
The idea has been around in evolutionary biology for near forever. The peacock's tail is a classic example.
Bruce Jenner...I guess he wants to be just one of the girls.Oh the glory of pop culture.
Althouse asked:What's the motivation for a man to pose as less masculine than he really feels inside?
I don't see the parallelism. You're undertheorized.
In my theory, you're the one who is supposed to answer for the motivation.
Best guesses: The perk of hypo-masculinity is sympathy and sense of being both different and validated. A much worst motivation is that enablers prefer their men as docile and meek.
_____________________
@Tarrou: Excellent question at 12:47, but unfortunately off topic.
Back in the late 60s, my Sensei worked with juvenile delinquents as his day job. He would encourage boys to get involved at the dojo, teaching them how to fight so that they didn't feel the need to always fight. He developed a lot of fine young men over the years.
You mean men who title their auto-biography "Unintimidated" probably have a small penis?
Sounds about right to me.
Hyper masculinity can get you killed. Suge Knight has a very intimidating presence. A lot of people probably feel that the best way to negotiate a disagreement with him is to preemptively shoot him,
It goes back as far as the Old Testament. This was the exchange in 1 Kings 20:10-11 between Ben-Hadad, the King of Aram, and Ahab, the King of Israel:
"Then Ben-Hadad sent another message to Ahab: 'May the gods deal with me, be it ever so severely, if enough dust remains in Samaria to give each of my men a handful.'
The king of Israel answered, 'Tell him: "One who puts on his armor should not boast like one who takes it off."'
Ahab won..
I guess Miles Gloriosus and The Braggart Captain, along with Captain McMorris, Pistol, Falstaff were all before Henry's time.
I hyper-feminity in a man a sign of strength?
I'd say that expressing hyper-X as a way of covering for a weakness in X goes back a long, long way. The earliest I can think of is Macbeth - "the lady doth protest too much".
I think one thing that isn't discussed much about depression and masculine men is that most men get the vast majority of their emotional support from women; their romantic partners. For men who are very masculine, their romantic partners are usually women who are attracted to very masculine men, and they certainly don't want their men to ever be "vulnerable", which comes across to this kind of woman as "weak". They no longer respect you or desire you.
Women who wouldn't judge a man as weak for being an actual human being are generally not interested in very masculine men - too scary.
Many of these types of men really can't talk to anyone about anything of import. Going through your entire life with little in the way of emotional intimacy or support can be an enormous burden.
I've had short, throwaway relationships where I can unburden myself with a woman, who invariably is no longer interested (because big, strong Mike is just a normal person after all), just so I can get shit off of my chest.
I doubt many people ever even thought of that.
Remember Hemingway's false chest hair? :)
Freud? Shakespeare?
I was thinking Hemingway and Miller.
Does hyper masculinity = bully?
madisonfella: "You mean men who title their auto-biography "Unintimidated" probably have a small penis?
Sounds about right to me"
I wonder how titling a book "Unintimidated" compares to a metrosexual President who brags about being "Really good at killing people" (via drones)?
Really good at killing people?
LOL
Have you seen him throw a baseball?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri8BOynRGnc
Yeah, that guy is "really good at killing people".
That guy.
Brian A Davis said...
I hyper-feminity in a man a sign of strength?
Remember the feminists calling out Woody Allen and Alan Alda as the "right" kind of men for women?
Good times, good times.
SOJO: "Yes, where is Crack? Running errands or in the zone of this morning's NoCal 6.x quake?"
6.+ earthquake in Northern California.
Women and minorities hardest hit.
Snake + cigar
The Macho Response.
What are some non-Meade sources of the observation?
Here's one:
He lives vicariously through himself.
He once had an awkward moment, just to see how it feels.
His beard alone has experienced more than a lesser man’s entire body.
When it is raining, it is because he is thinking of something sad.
His shirts never wrinkle.
He is left-handed and right-handed.
If he were to mail a letter without postage, it would still get there.
He has won the lifetime achievement award.... twice.
If he were to punch you in the face, you would have to fight off the urge to thank him.
The police often question him just because they find him interesting.
He is the most interesting man in the world.
-Krumhorn
Althouse asked:What's the motivation for a man to pose as less masculine than he really feels inside?
I had heard that dogs when they are losing a fight willingly expose their neck and the other dog retreats. Don't know if it is true or not but I've avoided my share fights through the years by being passive; aka less masculine. Haven't been in a fight since '67 or '68 [beyond that I've been flooded with movie/book references...]
And hyper-femininity in women is a cover for weakness as well?
Sophocles, Oedipus Tyrannos, 429 B.C.
Krumhorn @4:43, well played!
I actually met The Most Interesting Man in the World at an Operation Gratitude event and asked him for some advice about arm-wrestling CastrHe said, "Don't win."
DS said...
The Macho Response.
Hah!
At the age of 16(1983) I tried enlightening the jock/wrestler who had me buy the neck a coupla inches off the floor up against a locker of this very phenomenon and got derided as a pussy for my troubles and soundly humiliated in front of my friends and worse, classmates of the female persuasion. Thank God for life's harsh lessons otherwise I'd be a real pansy nowadays.
Eeyore Rifkin said...
Sophocles, Oedipus Tyrannos, 429 B.C
Channeling Ezra Klein: 'Dude, that's like more than a hundred years ago!!'....
"President Obama is the avatar of this core belief. He has ridiculed Putin for his hyper-masculinity, saying that his actions in Ukraine belie weakness."
Putin's actions in Ukraine show restraint, (western propaganda notwithstanding). Obama is just looking for a fight.
"And hyper-femininity in women is a cover for weakness as well?"
Seems to be true. Though a cover for feminine weaknesses rather than masculine ones, of course.
Botox, implants, foundation applied with a trowel, closets full of tiny shoes and handbags... definitely compensating for lack of actual femininity as much as the 'roided out cussing tough guy in the wife-beater shirt is compensating for lack of actual masculinity.
Cook: "Putin's actions in Ukraine show restraint..."
No, they don't.
They do demonstrate a capacity for playing the long game however.
Like the Chinese.
Obama meanwhile is playing tiddly-winks.
But that's cool 'cuz he's cool.
Sensitive New Age Guys (SNAGs) are probably the worst offenders in terms of compensation. Deep down they're really arrogant, self-centered manipulative @sshats, but they present themselves as oh-so in touch with their feminine side. . . .just to bed and toss away as many women as they can.
But c'mon, it's natural to attempt to make up for one's weaknesses; it's only weird when carried to an extreme. The only reason 'hyper-masculinity' is in vogue as the Great Satan is because of all the SNAGs in the media.
Hasn't anyone ever heard of "Fake it till you make it?" Yes, hyper-masculinity can be a cover for a feeling of weakness. But maybe that's because, if you feel weak, rather than letting it control you, it's better to emulate the strong until you no longer feel weak.
Honestly, this entire discussion seems predicated on the idea that there is something wrong with masculinity. There's not. Masculinity is awesome. We need more of it.
Cook: "'Putin's actions in Ukraine show restraint...'
"No, they don't."
Yes, they do. Reports to the contrary are lies promulgated by our State Department, with the aid and complicity of our nation's leading propaganda organ for Washington, the NY TIMES.
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