From her forthcoming book, previewed in Politico.
By "self-refutes," I mean a statement that asserts something and cancels it out simultaneously. I'm trying to think of some famous examples of this, but failing that, I'll just make up a sentence that demonstrates the kind of statement I'm talking about: I will not indulge in hyperbole as I present myself to you as the most qualified individual who has ever run for the office of President of the United States.
Ah! I thought of a well-known example: any statement that begins with the words "Not to mention." And here's one I found on the internet: "There are no absolute claims."
And here's something: "Internal Contradiction: Fallacies of Self Refutation." That quotes Aristotle, — "One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time" — and Thomas Paine:
"But granting the grammatical right, that Moses might speak of himself in the third person, because any man might speak of himself in that manner, it cannot be admitted as a fact in those books, that it is Moses who speaks, without rendering Moses truly ridiculous and absurd: -- for example, Numbers xii. 3: "Now the man Moses was very MEEK, above all the men which were on the face of the earth." If Moses said this of himself, instead of being the meekest of men, he was one of the most vain and arrogant coxcombs; and the advocates for those books may now take which side they please, for both sides are against them: if Moses was not the author, the books are without authority; and if he was the author, the author is without credit, because to boast of meekness is the reverse of meekness, and is a lie in sentiment."Let us do unto Hillary as Thomas Paine did unto Moses.
IN THE COMMENTS: Paul Zrimsek said:
Bush lied, people [censored]!
Posts
78 comments:
My grandmother had me read Age of Reason by Paine in 8th grade. It was a great read, not to mention that I've been an agnostic ever sense.
It stunning how a Secretary of State can be so non responsive and withholding of information Congress as they perform their oversight role, but we are to believe what she says in a book designed to further her career and bank account?
Treasonous.
Star Wars logic: "Only a sith deals in absolutes."
...says the woman who politicized the Iraq war for election and fund raising purposes while troops were being killed on the battlefield.
Fuck this woman and those like her.
Self-refutation is hard. Though Nixon might have been trying to do it with "I am not a crook."
RE: Thomas Paine and Moses.
I thought "meekness" is a translation of an adjective that describes a farm animal which is responsive to the farmer's commands.
Which doesn't quite mean that a meek person will never say that he is the meekest man on earth.
However, the combination of
(A) tradition pointing to Moses as the author of the Pentateuch, and
(B) the quoted statement that translates to "Moses was a very meek man, above all the men of the earth"
does look like it might be self-refuting.
Obama campaigned against VA mismanagement in 2008. The mismanagement was a scandal. The Republicans who now campaign against VA mismanagement are making a partisan issue about the health issues of our veterans. It's a problem that needs to be rectified not politicized......That's how it works. A scandal becomes a partisan issue when it is bruited by Republicans and reported on by journolists.
if Moses was not the author, the books are without authority; and if he was the author, the author is without credit
I've never understood that it was either of these simplified explanations. But that was then. We well know what Hillary is about, putting together a nice story to feed those that are anxious to get 2016 over with so she can be the president. Clearing the battle ground.
Because these men were killed on my watch, it would dishonor them to question me about why they are dead.
If you probe this matter, it may come to light that I could have prevented their deaths, but did not do so in order to further my own ambitions.
Such a revelation would almost certainly thwart my ambitions. These brave men died, albeit unwittingly, to further my ambitions. If my ambitions are not fulfilled these brave men will have died for nothing.
I will not be a part of that.
I know we are supposed to be talking about Hilary, but even during my atheist years I never got why Moses' not being the author of the Pentateuch renders them of authority. It doesn't say that he wrote all five books, every word. That is just a tradition handed down from Judaism.
Getting back to Hillary and Benghazi, I don't know why she even bothered addressing it. My impression is that LIVs don't know or care to know much about it. I suppose it is red meat thrown to her supporters.
And since a book by Hillary is going to be bought mostly by her supporters, its not surprising that she uses hyperbole. Politicians use hyperbole when talking about themselves all the time.
"I will not be a part of a political slugfest DELETED where I have no conceivable defense for my actions."
FIFY.
Fuck this woman and those like her.
I've never seen you say that about a man. But I bet you will now, in some lame effort to prove something.
SGT Ted said...
...says the woman who politicized the Iraq war for election and fund raising purposes while troops were being killed on the battlefield.
Not as evil as Hanoi Jane, but she played politics with the lives of troops and bet against the Army during the Iraq Surge.
She lost then, hopefully she'll run and lose in 2016. Then we can say goodbye to all three Clintons
"We come not to praise Caesar but to bury him" -- does that count?
If Hillary didn't self refute, she'd never refute.
I will not talk about the mistakes -- deadly -- that arose from my decisions either.
At this point, what would it matter?
If one understands that the Pentateuch was God speaking through Moses, there is no problem. It is not, in fact, Moses speaking; he is, rather, taking dictation. It doesn't change the fact that he is given credit as the writer, because he did write it down.
"It’s just plain wrong, and it’s unworthy of our great country. Those who insist on politicizing the tragedy will have to do so without me."
Because she's already had her turn, back at the beginning, when she could have been honest, but decided to politicize things instead. The whole reason we've gotten to this point is because she didn't follow her current advice. There were a lot of legitimate questions that needed answering but she was only interested in lying and protecting her future political ambitions "on the backs of dead Americans" and right in front of their families.
There are no absolute claims
Reminds me of a joke:
There are two types of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets
I'm not going to dignify this anti-Hillary post with a comment.
So much for all the 3am phonecall rhetoric.
Best ever self refuting statement was by Arthur Sulzberger in the wake of the Jayson Blair scandal:
"There's no complacency at the New York Times, never has been, never will be."
Hillary is going for an Otter:
Otter: What's the difference? [aloud] Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests—we did. [winks at Dean Wormer] But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick perverted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg: isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do what you you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
well, it's pretty obvious that not only Hillary!, but everyone else connected, wants Benghazi to just go away.
Obama apparently has fired Shinseki.
Thank heaven we can move along, now.
With a compliant press, I'm sure you are correct.
So much for all the 3am phonecall rhetoric.
Does she really think she can survive the presidential debates with that game?
"Secretary Clinton, a foreign policy followup - you ran an ad saying “It’s 3 a.m., and your children are safe and asleep -”
[audience laughter]
"Please stop, let me finish -
[laughter as members who cant control their laughter are escorted out]
“You ran an ad saying It’s 3 a.m., and your children are safe and asleep. Who do you want answering the phone... did you answer that phone for Bengazi?"
Sec Clinton: [.....]
"Back to domestic issues, you made some very strong remarks about the VA and healthcare last election. More than 400 veterans have now died on secret waiting lists. How do you square that with your support of government run health care?"
Secretary Clinton: "I will not be a part of a political slugfest on the back of dead Americans. Also, Vast Right-Wing Conspriarcy! And Scaife! No wait, I mean Koch Brothers!"
Self-refutation can be a logical concept (a contradiction in terms) or a rhetorical one (praeteritio). More interesting and more dangerous as the latter, I think.
She forgot the next line: "Am I my brothers' keeper?"
I think it's sensible to remain skeptical, even suspicious, of people who want to be in power as much as Hilary Clinton seems to want power.
What deep moral vision and character do you bring to the table that couldn't be found elsewhere?
Why do you want what is essentially a duty, a challenge, and a life-draining obligation?
Why have you angled, sacrificed, maneuvered, pretty much lied a few times when necessary, defended, attacked, raised money, and used your life to constantly get to higher office?
Vintage Clintonian tactic. The real crime is always Clinton-bashing. Her use of coffins and family mebers of the deceased Americans for a cynical spin session may have been the basest act by an American political figure in living memory but mentioning it is a hate crime againt Hillary! and the aspirations of all victims of income inequality.
The rule is that you get your one moment of outrage but then you have to drop all memory of it otherwise you are a hater. The was crystallized by the utterly brilliant PR offensives handled by Lanny Davis outside this or that Commitee hearing room during various scandals. "No news here, move on, already been covered.. any further mention is just Clinton-bashing.."
Hillary! is too proud and strident to just let it go...she will overreach in her counterattack and remind us of the unprincipled narcissism that she conceals badly.
My humility knows no bounds.
Hillary is a parody of an American politician. She has no discernible accomplishments but then neither did Obama. She came to Washington as the wife of a President although her previous experience had ended suddenly when was fired for “lying, unethical behavior.” Since that is now a qualification for office, at least as a Democrat, she should do well.
And the NYT and WaPo wonder why so many do not trust Hillary!(TM).
Friends, Romans, countrymen! I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
My favorite:
"You're so judgmental, you know you should not judge."
But the statement about Moses is in the past tense. Maybe he was the meekest of men at a point in the past, but now (as of the authoring) he's one arrogant SOB. He's fucking Moses, after all.
A joke when I was in high school was to say "I'm suave and sophisticated" - while making 'suave' rhyme with 'wave' and 'brave' and pronouncing the whole thing with a clunky hick accent.
Similar but slightly different: accusing someone else of being a 'pseudo-intellectual' while pronouncing the first part 'puh-soo-do' or 'sway-do'. That doesn't precisely refute itself, but it makes you just what you accuse the other of being.
"Hillary Clinton offers a detailed account of the deadly attack on the American embassy in Benghazi — and a pointed rebuttal to Republican critics who’ve laced into her over the incident".
Well, no need for any investigation now because, (a) what difference at this point does it make, and (b) I've told you everything you need to know.
BTW: Is "laced into her" an accepted usage? I've never heard "laced" used that way.
She politicized it by lying about the root cause of the 9/11 attacks.
But I suppose when a democrat lies to save their own skin, it's all groovy.
The Moses quote about meekness is way off the mark. The virtue of meekness was understood to regulate anger to be displayed at the right time, for the right reasons, at the right persons, such as when Moses threw down the tablets at the sight of the golden calf and the dancing.
Paine's right as far as he goes (regarding the internal logic of the utterance) - though SJ's caveat is significant; meekness is not humility.
But as an argument against the Pentateuch it's ridiculous.
(cf. Maimonides' 8th principle- The Torah that we have today is the one dictated to Moses by God.
If God tells Moses to write that, even if self-authoring it would make it contradictory, it wouldn't be in that context.
Moses as stenographer rather than author-ex-nihilo is both the traditional Jewish position on the Pentateuch and one which completely avoids Paine's "problem"; writing down, on God's command, God's praise of oneself cannot be a boast, but obedience to God - meekness and duty.
I mean, I'm an atheist, but Paine's argument is untenable.)
if Moses was not the author, the books are without authority; and if he was the author, the author is without credit, because to boast of meekness is the reverse of meekness, and is a lie in sentiment.
Third choice: Moses was not the author. God was. Moses wrote under the inspiration of God's Spirit.
It is essentially God calling Moses meek, so no lie in sentiment by Moses.
Preach on!
At first it was Hillary's angry reply to a Republican's probing question: "What difference – at this point, what difference does it make?"
Politifact, a website that endeavors to retrieve loose cats released by Democrats from sundry bags, tries to put the famous quote into a non-arrogant, non-toxic context. But we all know what she meant: Their dead! Too bad. Can this hearing resurrect them? No? Then shut up!
Now she's taking a different tack. Now it's "How dare my critics try to make political hay from the bodies of our sacred dead! I won't go there myself. I refuse to score political points with the bodies of our sacred dead. But the Republicans will try, because that's who they are, heartless monsters who want to assign blame for everything that goes wrong. (How could I be to blame? I've already told you it was that horrible video.) Not only are the Republicans traitorous naves who want to take away the free health care that I (with the assistance of Mr. Obama) have given the American people, they're heartless and cynical vote fraudsters who want to dig up the corpses lying in Arlington and register them as Republican voters. But, I'll leave that to someone else to make that clear to the voters, because I'm not going there. Not me, brother. Nope.
Sounds like the kid who killed both his parents, then wanted clemency because he was an orphan.
"It’s just plain wrong, and it’s unworthy of our great country. Those who insist on politicizing the tragedy will have to do so without me."
Good for her. Fuck these guys - I'm going home,...
Hilary: "Everything I say is a lie."
It's interesting how this thread, launched by our hostess as rebuke against Hillary's self-serving illogic, has splintered into a rarified defense of the authority of ancient religious texts.
Folks are going to some extremes to defend Moses from Paine's charge against his rhetoric, ranging from the improbable (meekness is not humility) to the self-defeating (the Bible is mistranslated) to the numbingly solipsistic (God wrote the Bible, ergo shut up)
Funner times have rarely been had.
Bush lied, people [censored]!
Moses as stenographer...
I can see Moses now, chiseling away at those stone tablets in shorthand.
Sigivald says he's an atheist, yet he absolves Moses from Paine's critique on the grounds that he was taking dictation... That one makes the room go all fuzzy.
Leading from behind
Does she mean that she wants to turn their dead bodies over so she can dance on their memories face to face, like she did Vince Foster's?
Thad Cochran's "America is not a debating society," is still the best political line of the year.
Quaestor,
I actually think there is a difference between Moses as stenographer and Moses as Divinely-inspired author. However, you probably aren't interested in that...
There's a more important question.
Moses was meek towards whom?
Because meekness is a trait of responsiveness to other people.
And if Moses was meek towards God, he could still stand before Pharoah and loudly demand "Let my people go!". (Which is not meek behavior towards Pharoah.)
But since "meekness" only seems important in certain sections of religious society, this understanding isn't widely-disseminated.
I figure Thomas Paine either was ignorant of this, or deliberately misunderstood the statements he was critiquing.*
I think this example underlines something about Hillary's statement: if she disagrees with others about the definitions of the words she is using, then the charge of self-refutation turns into a discussion of definitions.
[Insert jokes about "vast right-wing conspiracy" and "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" here...but note that the Clintons are apt at twisting definitions of words to serve their political goals.]
Self-refutation is sort of denying being, or whatever the meaning of is is.
Paul Zrimsek said...
Bush lied, people [censored]!
You nailed it. Thanks.
I don't think that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. And I don't think its authority depends at all on whether he did or did not write it.
But I know that Hillary Clinton was the Secretary of State when our people were killed in Benghazi. I know that she was Secretary of State before 9/11/12, the 11th anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks and was responsible for whatever was done or not done to protect the US consulate. I know that she was Secretary of State when other foreign institutions pulled out of Benghazi because they thought it was unsafe, and the US didn't pull out. I know that she vowed, over the bodies of Americans who died in Benghazi that we would bring the video-maker to justice.
So, yes I do think that at this point her answers to questions about these things do matter.
Not as evil as Hanoi Jane, but she played politics with the lives of troops and bet against the Army during the Iraq Surge. -Drill SGT
Hanoi Jane at least had the balls to go to North Vietnam.
I've never seen you say that about a man. -madisonfella
Then you haven't read everything I've ever written, have you? I've written about the Democrats backstabbing us during the war before. Where were you?
And what the fuck does that got to do with anything? Is it because Hillary is a woman, you have to come to her rescue, little white knight?
She wants to be the President, she doesn't rate it by her backstabbing those who she would be Commander in Chief over. Same as Obama and all the Democrat politicians that called us terrorizers and equated us to Nazis during the war. That's why the majority of troops don't like Obama. Because he shit on us when it was politically convenient to do so. We see what he is. Fuck them for what they did to us.
I was reminded of Groucho Marx after reading Hillary's statement again.
Basically he said, "I wouldn't be a member of any club that would have me as a member."
That's pretty much the ultimate self-refutation. "I will not be..." is pretty close.
A joke when I was in high school was to say "I'm suave and sophisticated"
My family has long used the "suave and debonnaire" line spoken as "swavey and de-boner" to impress the ladies.
And what the fuck does that got to do with anything? Is it because Hillary is a woman, you have to come to her rescue, little white knight?
IIRC, Madisonfella is Inga. She's getting her ButSexism! ready for the next 4 years.
It will be a nice change from the ButRacism! of the last 8. Hope and Change, baby.
Writ Small said...
I'm not going to dignify this anti-Hillary post with a comment.
I see what you did there! Fen not dumb, not like people say, Fen smart!
I'm waiting for the Clinton spin machine of "drag a dollar bill through Bengazi"
Ah, the days where it depended on what your definition of "is" was. I miss that so much.
[vomit]
Ah - with all due respect to Thomas Paine, he was being silly when he wrote this, and he knew that he was, but he thought he could get away with it. The word "meek" used by Moses, the writer, most likely meant "timid" and not suitable for the job. Not many people chosen by God were of any earthly strength or consequence -- they were full of faults and foibles.
Words in other languages do not always mean what we think they mean. The word "understand," for example, is also "to grasp" in our English. John 1 was translated from the Greek poorly for years: "And the light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." But the Greek word was literallly "grasp," and it was used one other time in the New Testament when the Roman soldiers grasped Jesus. The English Standard Version now translates better: "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."
Calling yourself "timid" or "meek" is not the same thing as calling yourself "humble." Moses pleaded with God not to be given a leadership job because he talked slowly and had a speech impediment. He probably sincerely thought himself utterly unable to do the job of public speaking and leadership. "Anyone but me."
In the chapter on Benghazi, she still blames the video.
Remember the 3am phone call commercial she used against Obama? Yeah, she ignored it too.
Her not being a part of it got those men killed. But hey, she'll lie over and step on their graves to promote her political ambitions because 'what difference, at this point, does it make. Dead men tell no tales.
SJ wrote: Moses was meek towards whom? Because meekness is a trait of responsiveness to other people. And if Moses was meek towards God, he could still stand before Pharaoh and loudly demand "Let my people go!". (Which is not meek behavior towards Pharaoh.) But since "meekness" only seems important in certain sections of religious society, this understanding isn't widely-disseminated
Nevertheless the Bible doesn't go into this detail. This entire explanation and qualification of meekness in the context of Moses is entirely out of context; it's from your brain and not from scripture. You've come up with a convoluted and contradictory definition of meekness -- in a nutshell: meek towards God, haughty towards Pharaoh, ergo meek -- which tends to support a conclusion you favored in the first place. This is called confirmation bias. Perhaps you've heard of it before?
In fact your formula works just as well for Paine as it does for you. Moses was meek towards God and haughty before Pharaoh, therefore he was meek. Very nice. But a false construct implies anything one wants, so Moses was meek towards God and haughty before Pharaoh, therefore he was haughty is just as good as your argument, and it serves Tom Paine's critique exactly.
I figure Thomas Paine... was ignorant of this...
Perhaps he may be forgiven for being ignorant of stuff not in the Bible.
I would have thought Hil was engaging in a form of paralipsis (defined here as "Stating and drawing attention to something in the very act of pretending to pass it over. A kind of irony"), but the professor seems to have something else in mind.
Typical Clinton slime. Here's hoping the Democrats decide they can do better.
Obama campaigned against VA mismanagement in 2008. The mismanagement was a scandal. The Republicans who now campaign against VA mismanagement are making a partisan issue about the health issues of our veterans. It's a problem that needs to be rectified not politicized......That's how it works. A scandal becomes a partisan issue when it is bruited by Republicans and reported on by journolists.
And as soon as he was elected, when it came to the VA ... crickets. Guess he was too busy trying to create ANOTHER government-managed health care system, to pay attention.
He's had SIX YEARS to clean up the mess, with no need for Congressional intervention to do so. Looks to me like the GOP and at least some of the press are doing their job, by your description, by calling him on it.
And after all, he is a Progressive ... you know, one of the people who say they are So Much Smarter than the rest of us, that we should just sit back and let them solve our problems FOR us. So why, after six years, is this going on in the presence of such "genius"?
Says a lot about trusting Progressives ... no matter their credentials, position, or popularity; the three attributes Progressives believe confer omniscience upon "experts" and "leaders".
Such misplaced trust is at the center of the fundamental flaw of this nation today: millions of us ignoring the responsible exercise of personal initiative and neighborly interdependence as a means to a solution, and instead waiting for "experts" and "leaders" to solve our problems FOR us with diktats from the top down.
William, you defend the indefensible ... just as Obama and Hillary do. But they have to, because they are the political equivalent of reality TV ... two winners of "American Idle", if you will. Their policies have certainly made a lot of Americans idle, and not by their own choice.
And this even reflects on the position of Press Secretary.
John Kerry once asked, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"
Today's question is: "How do you ask a man to be the last man to lie for The Mistake?"
"I have twelve tattoos, and I do NOT have a self-esteem problem!"
QED
"I refuse to stoop to the name-calling tactics of my a**hole opponents."
"I refuse to stoop to the name-calling tactics of my a**hole opponents."
When you go to a Jesuit school and bounce into Cicero like a kid on a four wheeler in a forest you encounter, in his speaking against the rebel Catiline: What? when lately by the death of your former wife you had made your house empty and ready for a new bridal, did you not even add another incredible wickedness to this wickedness? But I pass that over, and willingly allow it to be buried in silence, that so horrible a crime may not be seen to have existed in this city, and not to have been chastised. I pass over the ruin of your fortune, which you know is hanging over you against the ides of the very next month; I come to those things which relate not to the infamy of your private vices, not to your domestic difficulties and baseness, but to the welfare of the republic and to the lives and safety of us all.
Further to your memo on self-refutation: let's not forget, "What difference, at this point, does it make?" The presence of the audible commas and the "at this point" clause demonstrate that this was a prepared outburst. And remember that she followed it with an importantly false choice: was it a spontaneous video criticism, or a bunch of guys wandering around who decide to go kill Americans -- the latter is something never suggested by anyone, and wasn't one of the alternative explanations. But the implication of her little tantrum was, essentially: "What difference does it make how it happened? We're here to find out how it happened." -- because, of courser, finding out how it happened is the only way you prevent it from happening again, and bring the real perpetrators to justice. (Or death -- though her type never want to go that far.)
"Bob Boyd said...
Because these men were killed on my watch, it would dishonor them to question me about why they are dead.
If you probe this matter, it may come to light that I could have prevented their deaths, but did not do so in order to further my own ambitions.
Such a revelation would almost certainly thwart my ambitions. These brave men died, albeit unwittingly, to further my ambitions. If my ambitions are not fulfilled these brave men will have died for nothing.
I will not be a part of that.
5/30/14, 10:41 AM"
You, sir, are brilliant.
"Fen said...
And what the fuck does that got to do with anything? Is it because Hillary is a woman, you have to come to her rescue, little white knight?
IIRC, Madisonfella is Inga. She's getting her ButSexism! ready for the next 4 years.
It will be a nice change from the ButRacism! of the last 8. Hope and Change, baby.
5/30/14, 10:02 PM"
You had me confused for a moment there, when I thought you wrote "ButtSexism."
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