The Reid clip works as mockery because Reid was so wrong, wrong about the war being lost and wrong to express the demoralizing opinion. So in Rush's statement yesterday I hear a little nudge, a little cue that the issue isn't lost. Rush is answering an email from someone who feels that Rush has never expressed his opinion on gay marriage, and Rush begins with "Is my position on this really not known?"
This is a great teaser, keeping us listening at the end of the third hour of the show, which has already been full of talk about gay marriage. We're brought up short: Do we really not know what Rush thinks on the subject? He shifts away from that topic to a reverie about a conversation with a friend about "the left" and "the language game." We're looking at the show transcript here, but as a subscriber to the website, I'm hearing the audio as well, and it's slow and drawn out, like he's going to circle around before he gets to answering that emailed question, which nags me: I find myself assuming that Rush doesn't really care what gay people do in their private lives. He's not bound enough to tradition to have kept his own marriage vows, having divorced 3 times, and he hasn't put his life's energy into raising children. If gay people want to commit to monogamy, let them have their go at it. Good luck being better at it than I've been. That's what I think he thinks.
But I've got to listen to this disquisition on the left and language, which right away reminds me of how lefties are always whining that the right wins through "framing" — calling the estate tax the "death tax" and so forth. Both sides do things with language, and Rush is a master at pulling apart the other side's language (which, of course, entails substituting preferred language).
The language game, the left really excels at changing the language to benefit them politically, and they do it in such a way that a lot of people on our side have no idea what's happened until it's too late and the issue is already lost, which this issue is. This issue is lost. I don't care what the Supreme Court does, this is now inevitable -- and it's inevitable because we lost the language on this. I mentioned the other day that I've heard people talk about "opposite-sex marriage," or you might have had heard people say "traditional marriage."The social conservatives were playing a corresponding language game the whole time. They were relying — much too heavily — on the assertion that marriage has a fixed definition restricting it to one man and one woman. If anything, the social conservatives insisted on framing the argument with the definition of the word marriage. "Opposite-sex marriage" is a retronym, like "snail mail." The existence/acceptance of the retronym proves the meaning of the root word has changed. Rush speaks in terms of "allowing" something like this to happen, but you can't control the evolution of the language that way.
You might have heard people say "hetero-marriage." I maintain to you that we lost the issue when we started allowing the word "marriage" to be bastardized and redefined by simply adding words to it, because marriage is one thing....
The anti-gay-marriage side needed much more than a language argument. It lost not because the pro side did something with language. The pro side developed arguments about fairness, equality, and privacy. The traditional marriage people kept talking about the definition of marriage, which made it look more and more as though they had no good argument on the underlying substance. That's why they lost. Would they have lost even more quickly if they'd been less dictionary-focused and had concentrated on fairness, equality, and privacy? Either they were shallow or they were smart. That is, either they didn't know how to delve into the underlying principles at stake or they knew they'd get into trouble venturing beyond the definition-of-marriage argument.
Rush goes on to assert that the idea the marriage is between a man and a woman "was not established on the basis of discrimination."
It wasn't established on the basis of denying people anything. "Marriage" is not a tradition that a bunch of people concocted to be mean to other people with. But we allowed the left to have people believe that it was structured that way.No. That's not the pro-gay-marriage argument. No one thinks marriage was designed for the purpose of excluding gay people. The argument is only that there is an exclusion that we are now able to see. If someone points out that you're standing on his foot, you'd say I'm sorry and move your foot. You wouldn't say It's not as if I deliberately stomped on your foot and then keep standing on his foot. The continued behavior is mean. That's the meanness "the left" — along with many moderates and righties — has made many people believe. It has become mean. I believe that, and not just because Rush and others have "allowed the left to have people believe." Allowed!
Rush continues:
I would go so far as to say that there are some people who think marriage is an evil Republican idea, simply because they're the ones that want to hold on to it.That's hard to understand because he's using the restricted definition of "marriage." I almost wrote Huh? No one seems to be saying marriage is evil anymore.
So far as I'm concerned, once we started talking about "gay marriage," "traditional marriage," "opposite-sex marriage," "same-sex marriage," "hetero-marriage," we lost. It was over. It was just a matter of time. This is the point a friend of mine sent me a note about.Yes, the best argument was the words-have-meaning argument, but law school doesn't end on the first day, and the meaning of words is a complex topic. It's not like adding 5 + 5. I know there are a lot of jokes about lawyers like the client asking what's 5 + 5 and the lawyer answering "What do you want it to be?" In fact, I think I heard that joke on my first day in law school. But law isn't arithmetic, and people's lives are not numbers, and the question of what is right and wrong can't be done on a calculator. In fact, it's morally wrong to treat human beings as if they are numbers that can be added and subtracted mechanically.
"Once you decide to modify the word 'marriage,' then the other side has won, or at least they're 90% of the way home. The best thing that 'marriage' had going for it was basically what they teach you the first day in law school: 'If you hang a sign on a horse that says "cow," it does not make it a cow,' although today it might." That's where we are: 5 + 5 could = 11, if it works for the Democrats. A cow could be a horse, if it works for the Democrats.
Back to Rush:
The thing is, discrimination has never been a part of marriage.Right. No one sensible.... See how he's conceding there's no legitimate reason for the discrimination? In law — this is something you learn after the first day of law school — discrimination between classes of persons must be supported by a legitimate government interest. That's always an issue. You can't say that we didn't originally notice this discrimination. It must be justified. This is called the "rational basis" test, and it's the question right now before the Supreme Court. Rush has conceded the irrationality: No one sensible would deny gay people what government makes depend on being married.
It evolved as the best way to unite men and women in raising a family and in cohabitating a life. It's not perfect. The divorce rate's what it is. But it evolved with a purpose. It was not a creation of a bunch of elitists wanting to deny people a good time. It was not created as something to deny people "benefits," but it became that once we started bastardizing the definition. But discrimination is not an issue, and it never was. No one sensible is against giving homosexuals the rights of contract or inheritance or hospital visits.
There's nobody that wants to deny them that. The issue has always been denying them a status that they can't have, by definition. By definition -- solely, by definition -- same-sex people cannot be married. So instead of maintaining that and holding fast to that, we allowed the argument to be made that the definition needed to change, on the basis that we're dealing with something discriminatory, bigoted, and all of these mystical things that it's not and never has been.So he's in my "smart" category. He knows the definition-of-marriage argument is the only good argument. There is no other argument. Once that is lost, the game is lost. For the social conservatives — in this view — the only game was the language game.
At this point in the monologue, it becomes comical with a far-fetched analogy to someone who complains that they want the money and fame that someone else has. "I want to be an Obama... It's not fair that I can't be an Obama.... They're discriminating against me!" Rush is stretching for time now and retreating to the familiar ground of Obama and the redistribution of wealth, which is far from the problem of inequality enforced by law. This silly stuff goes on and on up to the commercial break, after which he says he's "just illustrating absurdity by being absurd." But he didn't illustrate absurdity. He ran from his own realization that the definition-of-marriage argument wasn't good enough and that in the end it was not a language game. It was real life.
And now he's out of time:
Just trying to point out what happens if we lose definitions, which is why we are where we are here. People refuse to stand fast on the definition of something.But the anti-gay-marriage people did stand fast. They stood on the only decent ground they had, and they fought there, and they lost not because of words, but because of moral feelings that developed on a deeper level, a level where the antis chose — wisely! — not to go.
And did you notice? Rush never answered the question asked! He mentioned law school: When I — a law professor — grade exams, I only give credit for answering the question asked. He got on a riff and filled the page, but I haven't forgotten the question: "Is my position on this really not known?"
But this isn't a law school exam. It's a radio show. And the riff was great radio, and he's got everyone talking about it this morning, including me, a law professor. What was the question anyway? He posed it himself! It was: "Is my position on this really not known?"
I'll answer that question. The answer is: No!
260 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 260 of 260Could there be a less effective advocate for traditional marriage?
Limbaugh never was an effective advocate for such, so there's no need for you to pretend he was. Your sort preferred going after the likes of Santorum. Shouldn't we at least try and be honest? It could help bridge the enormous differences between us.
Balfegor said:
But homosexual couples are sterile...
I think the dirty little secret that might just get revealed by SSM is that homosexuals aren't as restricted to homosexual behavior as they would have you believe (as basis for their grievance arguments).
Which is exactly why homosexuality is still with us despite the literal consequence of homosexual behavior excluding any possibility of pregnancy
Either society can promote marriages it deems beneficial to society or it can't. If no, then we have a separate argument. And here libertarians would certainly lose. But if yes, then why couldn't society promote a marriage based on the principle that it wants to promote a family structure that has a man and a woman (which also by the way answers the question as to why we shouldn't have a plural marriage) who give birth to kids raising those kids? That is the social good that society wishes to promote. Society can restrict marriages it doesn't want to promote. Most gays will cede that point.
jr565: I'm not sure most gays would cede that point -- mostly they seem to sidestep any critical thinking on gay marriage that doesn't support gay marriage.
However, the rest of your logic looks unassailable and no one here, as yet, has put a dent in it.
I would argue that by making it possible for economically fit marriage prospectors to marry as many people as they can they would strengthen marriage.
By extending economic security to as many women (and men) as possible you also lessen the burden that is the welfare state.
I tell you... once you see it through the lenses of equality for all the possibilities of egalitarian purposes... marriages consisting of many more than two people are more beneficial than just two people sharing everything.
It just makes total sense.
And if you don't see it the way I do well... that's because you are a bigot.
I just don't want to use these bigoted words like polygamy and such..
We should come up with another more marriage friendly word... for people who find happiness married to more than one partner.
I mean its for life... the road of life doesn't just have one road... it has off ramps and tunnels and bridges to the 21st century.
The issue is not lost. The issue was never presented. The issue is continuing discrimination between sexual and platonic relationships, between a diversity of numbers, combinations, and kinds of unions.
With the natural standards facing progressive scrutiny and being rejected when inconvenient, there is no a longer justification to discriminate between any union. This is the issue which advocates for homosexual marriage do not want to address.
The issue is also a selective assignment of rights, especially our unalienable Right to Life, which is endowed by our Creator from creation, as recorded in our national charter.
The issue is elective abortions which violate our Constitutionally guaranteed right to equal protection. It is a fundamental violation of human and civil rights by women who choose their wealth and comfort over the rights of an innocent human life, especially when voluntarily conceived.
Ann Althouse said:
3. I don't think the definition of marriage argument is the basis of including gay people in marriage. The reasons are substantive: fairness, equality, privacy.
I would like to hear how the demand a public declaration of contract that impacts your tax status and other legal standings is something that falls under "privacy".
"Equality" is another dodge. Marriage has never been just a simple act of unifying with a person you love. But that's how progressives deliberately distorted what normal people do in order to claim SSM as an equality issue.
I think this statement by Ann Althouse is a great example of how progressives just throw nice-sounding words at the wall to see what sticks.
The entire basis of SSM advocacy relies on loosening definitions and eliding contradictions and blurring distinctions.
Anyone who actually cares about accuracy and fairness should gravitate toward clarity and distinct contrasts. If you have to obfuscate, misrepresent, and redefine to make your point, you lose your integrity even if you win the battle.
But I guess that is one aspect of the "Ends Justify the Means" crowd: winning is more important than personal integrity.
Ted Olson himself was unable to come up with any reason SSM should be allowed, but not polyamorous, incestuous, or bestial marriages except that it was permissible to ban marriages on the basis of conduct.
That puts the argument on entirely different grounds than the "equality, fairness, privacy" smokescreen, and onto the "efficacy" grounds.
Small wonder the SSM proponents refuse to face up to that.
Wouldn't it be an economic boom to allow for people who just want to be happy with Mary, Jane and Juli, and Molly?
Think of the bigger houses they are going to need... all those jobs.
As long as its ok with Mary, Jane Juli and Molly what business is it of anybody to interfere in their happiness.
We are adults.
The argument regarding polygamy ignores a key point. There is no significant constituency for polygamous marriage. While there are a few rich guys and some religious cults who would be in favor of polygamy the vast majority of women and all men with limited marriageability prospects, which is to say most men, will be strongly opposed.
It is a non-starter politically and a red-herring in this particular argument. The problem for the anti-gay marriage advocates is that most people can't see any cost for them in allowing gay marriage.
..platonic relationships...
What a crock... When was Plato alive?
I bet you he was a bigot too.
Bigoted bigots just like to use the bigoted language of "polyamorous, incestuous, or bestial" because when you are a bigot you don't know love.
Love is not a sin... love is what makes the world go around.
Nathan Alexander said...
I think the dirty little secret that might just get revealed by SSM is that homosexuals aren't as restricted to homosexual behavior as they would have you believe
One argument in favor of SSM is that it would largely eliminate all the sham marriages that result from gay men and women feeling social pressure to enter into opposite sex marriages. Having seen the miserable outcomes that result from these unions it is a reasonably strong argument. Society does gain from eliminating these mismatches, resulting in happier and more productive lives for both the straight and gay partners.
AReasonableMan said...
The argument regarding polygamy ignores a key point. There is no significant constituency for polygamous marriage.
You've just run afoul of Althouse's pet point about majority tyranny. Remember your healthy countermajoritarian impulses!
BTW, Have you no decency? Your opinion is loathsome.
Have a nice day, blessings, take care
Having seen the miserable outcomes that result from these unions it is a reasonably strong argument.
Oh really? Do tell!
AReasonableMan: Who taught you to reason? You deserve a refund.
The pro-polygamy arguments are principled arguments (which may be what is throwing you) that polygamous marriage is justified in the same way as gay marriage. Those arguments are not political maps to achieve that objective, but to whatever extent legal arguments are about reason, those arguments apply.
Furthemore, on a factual basis, you are quite wrong to claim that there is no constituency interested in polygamy beside "a few rich guys and some cults."
Mormons and Muslims are about 2.8% of the US population according to wiki. Which is close to the number of homosexuals in the US.
I still see no reason that polygamous marriage can be denied if we redefine marriage for the sake of gays.
creeley23 said...
Mormons and Muslims are about 2.8% of the US population according to wiki. Which is close to the number of homosexuals in the US.
As we were repeatedly assured during the last election, most Mormons are not in favor of polygamy, and nor are most Muslims. The effective number is much, much lower. But, you ignore the opposite side of the equation, a large majority of people will object, so that it is never, ever going to happen.
But, you ignore the opposite side of the equation, a large majority of people will object, so that it is never, ever going to happen.
But you and your kind are on the losing side of progeneration (and I suspect you know it). How can you portend to know the future with such certainty?
Women largely define public morality (see Prohibition, illegality of prostitution, etc.). The majority of women are clearly not threatened by SSM and may even see some benefits,i.e. reduced risk of marrying a closet case.
Until those in favor of prohibiting SSM make a compelling argument based on the self-interest of women, as opposed to some arbitrary and absolute standard of morality, SSM is here to stay.
chickelit said...
But you and your kind are on the losing side of progeneration
Having three children of my own I am easily beating the national average. And 'by your kind' I assume you mean virile men of above average intelligence.
The majority of women are clearly not threatened by SSM and may even see some benefits,i.e. reduced risk of marrying a closet case.
The poor choices of a few women such as yourself shouldn't spoil things for everyone.
As we were repeatedly assured during the last election, most Mormons are not in favor of polygamy, and nor are most Muslims. The effective number is much, much lower. But, you ignore the opposite side of the equation, a large majority of people will object, so that it is never, ever going to happen.
But once upon a time in galaxy less than twenty years away when DOMA was signed, by many of the same people who are now boosters on the gay marriage bandwagon, we were assured that gay marriage was never, ever going to happen. And here we are.
Muslims and Mormons say they are not in favor of polygamy in spite of it being a substantial part of their religious heritage. One might suspect that the terrible legal, societal and even military pressures brought to bear upon polygamy might have a great deal to do with that. Nonetheless, there are Muslims and Mormons who do live in secret polygamy today.
Given the loosening of the marriage definition and certain court cases to come on the issue, there is no proof that polygamous marriage is "never, ever going to happen."
If the past is any guide, polygamous marriage is the smart bet.
Just a moment there "reasonableman." This is the internet. I have no reason to believe anything you write. Unlike you, I have a pseudo-identity, a blog with family history, real friends here, etc.
Besides, you remind me of someone else. Stop doing that and I'll leave you be.
chickelit
You are clearly trying to gay-bait me. I am happily married to an opposite sex partner. Based on the depths of your bitterness I suspect that is not true for you. I am sorry that things have not worked out well for you.
ARM, I think Chickie thinks I am you, LMAO!
Am I right Chickie?
No, Inga. But close.
Hmmmm, so who is a female that sounds like ARM? I know who you may be thinking of, but no he's all man, I know. ;)
Sorry for the silly interlude folks.
creeley23 said...
If the past is any guide, polygamous marriage is the smart bet.
I honestly cannot see how anyone can rationally think this.
Widespread polygamy would have serious consequences for the marriage prospects of large numbers of men. In addition very few women view it as an attractive prospect.
In a democracy, how would such legislation ever get off the ground?
"It is a non-starter politically and a red-herring in this particular argument."
Hardly. It is an uncomfortable point for people who think themselves "enlightened." Waving it away because of the number of people who would engage in it is a cowardly response. Either say it's okay or it's not okay. If it's not okay but SSM is, give me a good reason why. Do you think SCOTUS would say "Well, the arguments from the polygamists run pretty much along the exact same lines as those for SSM, which we have embraced, but since only 50,000 people would practice it, we're ruling against it?" If only three people wanted it, it shouldn't matter one bit from a fairness OR a legal standpoint.
And I do not accept the argument put forth upthread that polygamy shouldn't be allowed when SSM should be because marriage by definition is one-to-one. This results in the sticky wicket of the definition of marriage, which can just as easily be defined as one man-to-one woman.
Again, I will note that I tend to support the idea that SSM should be legal, if only because I really don't give a damn who anybody marries. This basis allows me the near-perfect intellectual consistency of saying polygamy should also be legal (and any form of marriage involving consenting adults). I guess I'm one of the very few people commenting here who isn't a bigot (and it's painful to see just how many SSM supporters are in fact bigots). I'm only being a little sarcastic.
"In a democracy, how would such legislation ever get off the ground?"
Quite simple. By legislating against it. If the courts rule SSM is legal, how will they reasonably argue when a polygamist challenges the current laws that polygamy is somehow different? Note that I said "reasonably."
I find it a little sickening that people who claim they are for "marriage equality"...aren't.
Crimso said...
Waving it away because of the number of people who would engage in it is a cowardly response. Either say it's okay or it's not okay. If it's not okay but SSM is, give me a good reason why.
I really don't see the issue here. We are dealing with public morality and legislation (politicians). There could not be a clearer example than this particular case of the way in which public morality and politicians can shift with the wind. There is no absolute standard.
There is clearly a political constituency for SSM and there equally clearly is no politically constituency for polygamy. Consequently, SSM will happen and polygamy is never going to happen, if current financial conditions remain roughly unchanged.
You are right however that I should be a bit less absolute. If income disparities become so extreme that it makes sense for some women to share a rich husband rather than have a pauper to themselves then public opinion could change.
I honestly cannot see how anyone can rationally think this.
ARM: So you say, yet whole societies, religions, and even civilizations are based upon polygamy.
Twenty, thirty years ago, one might have sensibly asked how gay marriage legislation could get off the ground.
Yet here we are -- Time magazine proclaims the issue is settled in special double front cover, and Smith College is in hot water for denying admissions to a transgendered applicant.
Those are news headlines that I would have argued were irrational a few decades ago and I would have been wrong.
Just because you can't see it doesn't rule it out. You are offering a version of the fallacy, Appeal to Ridicule -- if being reasonable matters to you.
During the second half of 2009 the magazine saw a 34.9% decline in news stand sales.[13] During the first half of 2010, there was another decline of at least one third in Time magazine sales. In the second half of 2010, Time magazine newsstand sales declined by about 12% to just over 79,000 copies per week.
"We are dealing with public morality"
Precisely the argument I've heard so many times against SSM. And before you start citing poll numbers, remind me again what the vote tallies were for Prop 8. We seem to be arguing two different points. You're saying that polygamy will never be legal for practical reasons so why worry about it? I'm saying that I shouldn't buy the arguments of those who are in favor of "marriage equality" when they actually are not. Whether polygamy is ever legalized will have no affect on me whatsoever, and I don't care if it ever COULD be legalized. But people who are strenuously arguing for SSM, some of whom casually hurl the term "bigots" at their opponents, are themselves bigots and can't be honest enough with themselves to admit it. And for any of you in favor of SSM who are honest enough to at least recognize that you are uncomfortable when thinking about polygamy (i.e., you're not simply a bigot), there's a term for that discomfort: cognitive dissonance.
Neither will it have any "effect" on me (hard to be such a pompous pedantic ass when I pull a simple boner like that).
There is clearly a political constituency for SSM and there equally clearly is no politically constituency for polygamy.
ARM: Again, 2.8% of the population are Muslim and Mormon, for whom polygamy is their religious tradition. You can't offer practical assurance that they won't revert back to their tradition now that marriage has been redefined in America.
Nor can you argue that there is a principled reason to prevent the courts from ruling in favor of polygamous marriage once there is the precedent of gay marriage.
I'm clearly having too much fun at this point. I'll let somebody else have their say now. Thanks all for the interesting (and relatively civil) thoughts.
Crimso: Nice of you to drop by. I thought you said this well:
We seem to be arguing two different points. You're saying that polygamy will never be legal for practical reasons so why worry about it? I'm saying that I shouldn't buy the arguments of those who are in favor of "marriage equality" when they actually are not. Whether polygamy is ever legalized will have no affect on me whatsoever, and I don't care if it ever COULD be legalized. But people who are strenuously arguing for SSM, some of whom casually hurl the term "bigots" at their opponents, are themselves bigots and can't be honest enough with themselves to admit it.
Gay marriage is a cover story for the real pervs: the bestiality set. Peter Singer at Princeton is arguing for progressive zoophilia. Zizek is arguing for it. It's all about love of nature, eco tourism, and the beginning of whole new sets of sexual diseases sweeping through the population as western syphilisation goes through its final death throes beginning with anal sex with horses and ending with anal sex with porcupines. What can you do? It's inevitable.
AReasonableMan said...
The problem for the anti-gay marriage advocates is that most people can't see any cost for them in allowing gay marriage.
Yep.
And that's because the institution itself has been devalued, especially with regard to how it affects the well-being of children.
Somehow the very basic notion, for example, that a child is entitled to both a mother and a father (in the natural course of things) has been lost.
Instead of love the sinner not the sin, tolerance has come to mean condone. We must accept any and all behaviors as the price of family or friendship or even life in the workplace. But, really, we can love and care for each other without condoning things we regard as harmful or dangerous.
The politics of division keeps maintaining that unless we accept the sin we don't tolerate the sinner. Tolerance shouldn't be a cudgel to keep us from examining diversity, it should be a way to respond to it and open a conversation. What has happened is exactly the opposite.
Re: creeley23:
The pro-polygamy arguments are principled arguments (which may be what is throwing you) that polygamous marriage is justified in the same way as gay marriage.
Well, kind of. Anti-polygamy pro-SSM commentators sometimes argue that polygamy will raise such awful administrative problems that we can't do it (but the administrative problems caused by the mismatch between states' treatment of SSM is totally unacceptable).
But more than that, polygamous marriage has a real history of specific, targeted suppression founded explicitly on bigotry and hatred. To the extent there's anything comparable with gay marriage -- and there really isn't anything remotely comparable -- it's just the standard anti-sodomy laws. The case for the current configuration of marriage laws reflecting a conscious choice reflective of mere animus, is a lot stronger with polygamy than it is with gay marriage. Furthermore, polygamous marriage actually furthers the same objectives as monogamous marriage, unlike gay marriage which is totally orthogonal to those objectives.
There's actually a logical argument for including polygamous marriage in the structure of legal marriage in the US, despite how icky people find it (again, let me add: despite the fact that people don't find it comparably icky for a man to have multiple mistresses). There's no comparable argument for gay marriage -- the argument for extending recognition to gay marriage is founded in sentiment, not reason.
Also, re:
Again, 2.8% of the population are Muslim and Mormon, for whom polygamy is their religious tradition.
Neither tradition requires polygamy. Mainstream Mormons in the US haven't practiced it since 1890, and there's little reason to think they would resume the practice if it became legal. Muslims and some African immigrants are the only groups in the US likely to have a living cultural tradition of polygamy.
Balfegor: Not sure of your point.
Yes, polygamy has been viciously suppressed, but that is tangential to my point: once marriage is redefined beyond one man, one woman to include same sex marriage, there is no principled way I can see to oppose redefining marriage to include trios and more.
Neither tradition requires polygamy.
No, but both traditions have included polygamy especially by their founders -- Muhammad had about a dozen wives; Joseph more than two dozen.
Today there are still Mormons and Muslims in America who practice polygamy secretly. I see no reason that some Mormons and Muslims would return openly to polygamy if it were legal, or at least support the possibility.
I see no reason that some Mormons and Muslims would not return openly to polygamy if it were legal, or at least support the possibility.
creeley23 said...
I see no reason that some Mormons and Muslims would not return openly to polygamy if it were legal, or at least support the possibility.
Only if they had a religious reason to do it. Religions don't necessarily modify their doctrine to fit a political agenda. At least a religion that follows God not man.
wyo sis: They don't have to modify their religious doctrine to include polygamy -- polygamy is already part of their religious traditions.
The Mormons didn't give up polygamy because they were persuaded. They were forced to do so under severe military and criminal suppression.
Likewise, Muslims give up polygamy in the US because it is against the law and social mores.
Why would Mormons and Muslims not return to polygamy if it were allowed?
We will see legal challenges from both groups on this matter. How will the courts rule against polygamy if there is the precedent of gay marriage?
At this point I'm pretty cynical and I think the courts can find for anything they want. But if they were making a principled argument against polygamy other than it is icky or impractical, what would that be?
Re: creeley23:
Yes, polygamy has been viciously suppressed, but that is tangential to my point: once marriage is redefined beyond one man, one woman to include same sex marriage, there is no principled way I can see to oppose redefining marriage to include trios and more.
My point is more that polygamy has the stronger historical, moral, legal, and logical claim. The arguments for recognition of polygamy and for recognition of gay marriage don't rest on identical grounds because while gay marriage relies on a redefinition of marriage away from the function it's historically played in western society, polygamy falls squarely within the existing tradition. We just don't permit it because Americans think it's gross. Yes, the arguments for gay marriage can be turned to support polygamy too, but the arguments for gay marriage are, frankly, kind of dumb, and totally unpersuasive to anyone who is not already emotionally invested in the fuzzy idea that marriage is about love and gays and lesbians fall in love just like heterosexuals, so their unions ought to be recognised by the government too.
Why would Mormons and Muslims not return to polygamy if it were allowed?
Because (a) they've assimilated to American cultural norms, and (b) prejudice in the US against polygamy is still extremely strong and no amount of legalisation is going to change that -- what's legal and what's acceptable in polite company are (quite properly) very, very different things.
Mormons in particular know that they are hated by a sizeable chunk of America, and despised by many more, and that seems to alarm them (I assume that's the point of all those "And I'm a Mormon" adverts I see on Youtube). I doubt that more than a tiny handful would resume polygamy (probably just the tiny handful that do so now, in the face of that terrible power of government).
Balfegor: OK. I agree that the pro-polygamy argument doesn't have to follow the same lines as for pro-gay marriage. However, I'm saying that ratifying gay marriage breaks the barrier for alternate forms than male/female monogamy and thus makes it easier for pro-polygamy.
Because (a) they've assimilated to American cultural norms, and (b) prejudice in the US against polygamy is still extremely strong and no amount of legalisation is going to change that -- what's legal and what's acceptable in polite company are (quite properly) very, very different things.
We have seen Muslims assimilated to Western cultural norms become suicide bombers. We have seen Americans converted to Islam become Muslim warriors against Americans. Becoming polygamous doesn't seem nearly so radical a step in comparison.
As to what is acceptable in polite company -- the prejudice against gays in Americans was extremely strong fifty years ago. Now we were on the threshold of gay marriage becoming the law of the land.
Maybe you're right, but you can't know for certain and I sure wouldn't bet on it.
Nathan Alexander wrote:
Ted Olson himself was unable to come up with any reason SSM should be allowed, but not polyamorous, incestuous, or bestial marriages except that it was permissible to ban marriages on the basis of conduct.
that is a really stupid argument when it comes to gay marriage (from Ted Olson, not from you) because one society could ban gay marriage for behavior. One for gays being gays. Clearly in this case I wouldn't agree with the result (but that doesn't mean society couldn't do it). But child birthing is conduct. Therefore not being able to not allowing marriages on the basis of conduct (or lack there of).
AReasonable man wrote:
Widespread polygamy would have serious consequences for the marriage prospects of large numbers of men. In addition very few women view it as an attractive prospect.
that's only assuming g polygamy must be like religious polygamy. Tere is also polyandry. Not to mention gay polygamy which could be all men.
If polygamy is as it is now, its such a small subset of the population that it wouldn't impact many people getting married, but if it did impact a large number of people...well why worry about the consequences. Are we thinking much about the impact of what gay marriage will have on traditional marriage (for example. Leading to more and more people having kids out of wedlock)? Or do we just care about fairness NOW?
So, what about fairness now and worry about the consequences later?
AReasonable man wrote:
As we were repeatedly assured during the last election, most Mormons are not in favor of polygamy, and nor are most Muslims. The effective number is much, much lower. But, you ignore the opposite side of the equation, a large majority of people will object, so that it is never, ever going to happen
since when is the idea of a lot of,people objecting grounds to not allow for,changing of marriage definitions? Isn't that the whole point and history of the gay marriage argument. You're just standing on the wrong side of history.
AReasonableMan wrote:
Women largely define public morality (see Prohibition, illegality of prostitution, etc.). The majority of women are clearly not threatened by SSM and may even see some benefits,i.e. reduced risk of marrying a closet case.
Until those in favor of prohibiting SSM make a compelling argument based on the self-interest of women, as opposed to some arbitrary and absolute standard of morality, SSM is here to stay.
so wait, your argument for depriving people of fundamental rights is, because that's what women want?
So then why are women such bigots in your mind?
I mean, here I was thinking I was a bigot for denying gay marriage because of some fairness argument when in reality women just need to get what they want.
That's kind of a sexist argument on your part actually.
Because (a) they've assimilated to American cultural norms, and (b) prejudice in the US against polygamy is still extremely strong and no amount of legalisation is going to change that -- what's legal and what's acceptable in polite company are (quite properly) very, very different things.
That would all be well and good if we weren't discussing redefining marriage fundamentally. What are you saying they've assimilated themselves to?
They've assimilated to traditional marriage. That will all be upturned.
Ann Althouse said...
@Carrie Monogamy -- or what I think you mean, not committing adultery -- is a cultural norm, but the government is doing nothing to enforce it. It's not imposed (by government) on hetero-married people, so I don't see how you can argue that gay people will degrade marriage by not sufficiently upholding the monogamy norm.
I didn't see anyone in the Supreme Court cases taking the position that excluding gay people served the legitimate interest in fighting adultery. If gays can marry and if they commit adultery more than heterosexuals do, then marriage is less effective at controlling adultery?
3/29/13, 8:25 AM
Over the 21 years on active duty, I knew a few people and heard of more charged under UCMJ Article 134 Adultery. In fact, I remember a case in I believe it was the 1980's where a young Marine charged with adultery hired a civilian lawyer for his defense. In his opneing statement, teh lawyer attempted to get the charges dismissed by pointing that in Califonia, it was impossible to get prosecuted for adultery. He was admonished by the military judge, "This is not Califonia, this is the United States Marince Corps, and if there is one person a Marine should be able to trust with his wife while he's deployed, it's another Marine."
The trial did not go well for accused.
Reading almost all the posts about this topic, I think the reason why the SSM movement here in Australia did not stage a rebellion when the SSM bill was defeated in the federal parliament was because marriage, here, for the purposes of taxation does not give any advantage over other types of relationships.
Everyone in Australia, for taxation purposes, is treated as an individual. We all get taxed under the same tax rate. We all file our tax returns separately. Although those with spouses will have their files linked in the system, useful when determining if they are eligible for some gov't grants like the one-off program like the solar panel rebates.
De facto couple (hetero couple who is not married) who has children, single person who takes care of a child whether the child is his/her child or someone's child, have the same deductions and benefits married individuals have and they are mostly tied to raising of children.
Taxation will only differ for all of us when a child is being raised by an individual. But that is only reflected when you do your tax return at the end of the financial year. During the year I get taxed by my employer the same rate as the single person who has no children, although I have 2 dependent children.
I have not heard of a gay man who takes care of a child but I am guessing he will get the same deductions and benefits married individuals and single persons get.
Regarding inheritance in the event the spouse dies, de facto hetero partner gets the same right as a married hetero spouse. I would assume gay partner will have the same claim to the property of his gay partner but the court will look at the length of time they've been living together, the dependency of the living partner to the dead gay partner and other factors. Of course the relatives of the dead gay partner can make a claim too and therefore the court will have to decide on that. Anyway, gays can write wills -- who will get who regarding their assets.
If your taxation is removed from the institution of marriage I wonder how many gays will marry at all.
Cenk Uygur of "The Young Turks" was beside himself with joy, calling Rush a fat fuck.
@carrie @annalthouse
But that's just gay guys. Lesbians are super freaking married.
I think the things that it would change, have already changed, or it never would have happened, if you see what I mean.
The real thing will be the kids, but I guess we'll see.
Personally, I feel sorry for Elton John's baby. Mostly because his parents are so freaking old - even the trophy wife husband is like 50 years old. Having a gay queen dad who is 30 is not so bad. Think Doogie Howser. Having one who is 60-something at your birth is scary.
So why is that okay? Oh yeah. All the money. And that's the message it's sending: money makes everything okay.
And maybe it does.
And it's my very pro-mom bias showing, but that kid will never have a mother. Not even an imaginary one somewhere that they could track down. Just .... No mom.
That's scary to me. Life without a mother. Not a mom who gave you up so that your adopted mom could have you ...
just No Mom.
I think I'm going to cry. :(
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