Althouse: "At the hookah bar, Jordan and Emily Wernet, a 25-year-old freelance illustrator of comics and tattoos, joked about the grotesqueness..."

February 20, 2013

"At the hookah bar, Jordan and Emily Wernet, a 25-year-old freelance illustrator of comics and tattoos, joked about the grotesqueness..."

"... of a hand appearing inside a belly and about 'parasites,' 'popping one out,' and 'horrible little grubs' in the midst of more serious conversation about their fears of relinquishing sole ownership of one’s own body."

That's quite a sentence. I present it for your analysis, both formal and substantive. Free free to click here and take in the full context, which is quite interesting (and recently pointed at by Instapundit).

I wonder if Emily has designed tattoos for women's bellies that depict the illusion of seeing through to a distended womb with something grotesque inside.

206 comments:

1 – 200 of 206 Newer› Newest»

Bob R said...: Speaking of parasites...; 2/20/13, 11:23 AM
Heather said...: Yes, this is the attitude that we've raised our young people with. To view the most innocent and helpless among us as parasites.; 2/20/13, 11:28 AM
Seeing Red said...: She lives in a rent-controlled apartment, eh? They are grotesque.; 2/20/13, 11:30 AM
traditionalguy said...: Fathers are required to create fatherhoods, as Paternalistic as that sounds.

Many young men today are seeing no reason to become fathers and still get no respect from the promiscuous men and women their own age.

A new born baby remains the best creation miracle we ever get to participate in up close. But avoiding miracles sounds much safer to unbelievers.; 2/20/13, 11:30 AM
Darrell said...: Comments are disabled for your Jesse Jackson Jr. post. An accident or is something afoot?; 2/20/13, 11:35 AM
Wince said...: ...about 'parasites,' 'popping one out,' and 'horrible little grubs' in the midst of more serious conversation about their fears of relinquishing sole ownership of one’s own body.

Shouldn't this post have an "insect politics" tag?; 2/20/13, 11:43 AM
edutcher said...: Slippery, meet slope.

Some of us saw this coming.

Now, suddenly, the Lefties are getting worried about not only who will take care of them in their dotage, but who will fund it.

Enjoy the decline.

Darrell said...

Comments are disabled for your Jesse Jackson Jr. post. An accident or is something afoot?

Something I said?

Perhaps Mother and Father are at lunch.; 2/20/13, 11:49 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: Some Silicon Valley billionaires might be able to turn this problem around.; 2/20/13, 11:53 AM
n.n said...: They call them "breeders". As if human life is a mere trinket.

This is what they wanted. This is what they worked for. They sought to normalize behaviors which constitute evolutionary dysfunction and they have largely succeeded, both in women avoiding and delaying reproduction, both in men viewing children as a burden and women as objects from which to derive physical pleasure.

They promised women, and men, instant (or immediate) gratification without consequences. They were wrong.

They acted and spoke unreasonably and without reason. They devalued human life from conception to grave.

Fortunately, they have illegal aliens to replenish the ranks and do other work they consider to be beneath them. Presumably, this is why they consider it reasonable to displace Americans at work, school, and throughout society. This is why they are willing to sponsor corruption as they curry favor in order to preserve democratic leverage.

Meanwhile, Americans are voluntarily committing generational genocide in order to preserve their wealth and welfare.

That's some kind of progress, but it is not positive.; 2/20/13, 11:55 AM
Anonymous said...: "...On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life

(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)

Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,

And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death.".....

The Gods of the Copybook Headings keep staring at us.; 2/20/13, 12:00 PM
Darrell said...: Something I said?

Perhaps Mother and Father are at lunch.

Or maybe Crazy Mary developed new hacking skills.; 2/20/13, 12:02 PM
n.n said...: Women should be available for sex, taxation, and exploited for democratic leverage.

Men who are outside of the emergent or alien master class should be marginalized from conception to grave.

I think someone is attempting to subvert our civilization and are experiencing measurable success with an increasingly submissive population.; 2/20/13, 12:03 PM
Toby said...: Is this today's Gatsby Sentence?; 2/20/13, 12:15 PM
edutcher said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/13, 12:16 PM
edutcher said...: It has that quality...

n.n said...

Women should be available for sex, taxation, and exploited for democratic leverage.

Men who are outside of the emergent or alien master class should be marginalized from conception to grave.

I think someone is attempting to subvert our civilization and are experiencing measurable success with an increasingly submissive population.

I don't think they're that smart.

I do believe even they are starting to realize this is getting away from them.; 2/20/13, 12:17 PM
test said...: n.n said...
Fortunately, they have illegal aliens to replenish the ranks and do other work they consider to be beneath them.

Look 40 years down the road and consider what society will look like. Are the waves of immigrants going to come here so 2/3 of their income can be taken to pay the retirement benefits of disabled former hipsters? These people are presuming society will function then essentially the same as it does now.

It won't.; 2/20/13, 12:23 PM
Lydia said...: Odd that just last night I read that one of the Chinese creation myths says that the human race evolved from parasites that infested Pan Gu’s body. (Pan Gu was the first man.)

Anyway, sorta fits with Emily's sick take on things.; 2/20/13, 12:33 PM
Deirdre Mundy said...: You know, even with the crashing economy, the fact that SS will be dead long before I am, and the rapidly rising cost of living, I'm not worried about retirement.

I have 5 kids, we may have more, and if they split responsibility for us, we won't be too much of a burden.

The childless will have much to fear when the social safety net disappears....; 2/20/13, 12:36 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Is this today's Gatsby Sentence?"

It's today's alternative-to-Gatsby sentence.

I'll put the Gatsby sentence up, since you're hankering for it.; 2/20/13, 12:43 PM
edutcher said...: Marshal said...

Fortunately, they have illegal aliens to replenish the ranks and do other work they consider to be beneath them.

Look 40 years down the road and consider what society will look like. Are the waves of immigrants going to come here so 2/3 of their income can be taken to pay the retirement benefits of disabled former hipsters? These people are presuming society will function then essentially the same as it does now.

Population south of the border is also shrinking and isn't expected to exert the pressures it once did.

If the Lefties are counting on an underclass of wetbacks to care for them, they seem to be in for yet another rude awakening.

Deirdre Mundy said...

You know, even with the crashing economy, the fact that SS will be dead long before I am, and the rapidly rising cost of living, I'm not worried about retirement.

I have 5 kids, we may have more, and if they split responsibility for us, we won't be too much of a burden.

That was always God's retirement plan and it's still the safest.; 2/20/13, 12:50 PM
Astro said...: ... as foretold in the 2006 movie 'Idiocracy'.; 2/20/13, 12:50 PM
traditionalguy said...: Gatsby died childless. His family patriarchal line ended.

Daisy was a bad choice.; 2/20/13, 12:53 PM
Henry said...: Always always always there is this desire -- and blind belief -- that life mustn't -- and can't -- change.

The most grotesque part of the article isn't some folks indulging black humor. People with kids have plenty of their own, I promise you.

The most grotesque part of the article is when Kotkin and Siegal invoke the government as solution.

"Of course neither outcome—the breeders multiplying their way into political power or a shrinking population, with all that would imply economically and culturally—is inevitable. There are several steps our government could take ..."

Yes, there are always steps our government could take, and all of them are fantasies in soft coercion.

Some people don't want kids. Some people do. I'm glad we live in a culture and time where people make up their own minds.; 2/20/13, 12:56 PM
Paco Wové said...: "...the breeders multiplying their way into political power..."

the horror!

...the horror!; 2/20/13, 1:08 PM
Lyssa said...: You know, when I was a teen, I would have absolutely seen myself as one of these folks when I grew up - I wanted to live in a city, swore I didn't want kids for the same reasons given here, that sort of thing (I guess I figured I'd get married, though). Yet, I changed course completely - married young, house in the 'burbs, delightful new baby.

I'm not sure what changed, perhaps I just started to understand the reality of living in cities (bugs, rent, 0 space), but that lifestyle seems dreadful now.; 2/20/13, 1:10 PM
Anonymous said...: That's a cautionary tale that goes back several generations - Don't eat the brown acid.; 2/20/13, 1:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Hey Marshal, here's a perfect opportunity to bring up my Handmaid's Tale scenario of sorts.

Conservatives have a lot of children, those children grow up evangelical or Mormon, they vote Republican. The Republican Party has been taken over by the religious right, and since they are now the Party in power and childlessness has long since reached critical mass and must now be reversed to keep our society from collapsing, ( whew, run on sentence?)the extremist Republican Party fines couples who do not meet the two children qualification, to remain married. Or submit to artificial insemination, or egg donor, or use of surrogate, or adoption.

OR, much more realistically, most of those young 20 something's that are talking the talk of childlessness now, meet someone they adore, start feeling their biological clock ticking and before age 40, have a child or two. We could try to make things easier for childbearing couples, like a tax credit as discussed in the article, or more paid time off after the birth of the baby, or time off for the father too.; 2/20/13, 1:17 PM
edutcher said...: Paco Wové said...

...the breeders multiplying their way into political power...

the horror!

...the horror!

No, the Roe Effect, and I suspect a lot of the "Resistance Is Futile" we're getting from the media is aimed at getting everybody to cave now before all those children of people like Sarah Palin start taking over.

(after all, that kind of bluff worked for Yamashita at Singapore); 2/20/13, 1:18 PM
ricpic said...: ...children have become a choice...

That's a funny line. But only if you're not the center of the universe.; 2/20/13, 1:18 PM
Brian said...: I yield to no-one in my pro-natalism, but if the alternative is that some poor children should be saddled with those women as their mothers, I'll take my chances on a less-populated world in my old age.; 2/20/13, 1:22 PM
Renee said...: Coming from a culture that told us as teenagers that babies were a death sentence to having a life and fun, well what did we all expect?

Too much of a good thing, I guess.

You can't tell teens/young adults that babies are horrible, then complain when they do not want them.

There are enough people who want children, and would like to have a larger family. If people want to be childless by choice, well that is there choice. The people who want larger families will easily offset the numbers. Let those who want more, have them without any complaints or barriers to their cost.; 2/20/13, 1:26 PM
Seeing Red said...: ..."grubs' in the midst of more serious conversation about their fears of relinquishing sole ownership of one’s own body."

They really don't have a clue what single-payer really is, do they?

Good & hard.; 2/20/13, 1:33 PM
CJinPA said...: A hookah bar in New York’s East Village, that's where we start this conversation? Funny.

I think more people don't want children because they don't need them, and they're a lifestyle-crimper. A buzzkill, they think.

No problem. The Third World is picking up the slack. I'm sure they'll care for us in our old age.

Also, the comments section of the Daily Beast is a sad, sad place.; 2/20/13, 1:34 PM
Renee said...: CJinPA,

Sorry, third world fertility rates are going down as well. And their children will wipe their rear-ends, not the child-less white ones.; 2/20/13, 1:35 PM
Seeing Red said...: More time off? Underemployment is about 20% if not higher. It takes time to build heaven on earth and perfect man. It's also very costly.; 2/20/13, 1:35 PM
Lydia said...: Anyone here remember the movie Georgie Girl?

That was made in 1966 (almost half a century ago!) and featured one woman who was overflowing with love for children and another pregnant one who abhorred the idea that her body had been taken over by a baby.

Everything old is new again.; 2/20/13, 1:36 PM
Seeing Red said...: I wonder how many of these kids already raised kids because of divorce & remarrying?; 2/20/13, 1:37 PM
mccullough said...: The U.S. fertility rate had been at the replacement level for a long time before the economic collapse.

Want more kids? The economy needs to grow again. These anecdotes about the tragically hip in NYC are worthless as the problem is not hipster narcissism but shitty economy.

Hopefully things will improve after the Bush-Obama years.; 2/20/13, 1:39 PM
CJinPA said...: third world fertility rates are going down as well

Really? Who the hell is driving population growth?; 2/20/13, 1:40 PM
Unknown said...: I'm a little confused by Inga's tale.
Do you mean that if conservative Mormons and evangelicals ever get power they'll force people to have children?

If you are, I can relieve your mind as to what would happen if people who think like I do ever become a majority. Conservatives don't believe the government should be involved in people's personal decisions.

If true conservatives regain power none of us will want to force the unwilling to have children, but we will expect those who do have children to take care of them.; 2/20/13, 1:44 PM
jr565 said...: Lyssa wrote;
I wanted to live in a city, swore I didn't want kids for the same reasons given here, that sort of thing (I guess I figured I'd get married, though). Yet, I changed course completely - married young, house in the 'burbs, delightful new baby.

I'm not sure what changed, perhaps I just started to understand the reality of living in cities (bugs, rent, 0 space), but that lifestyle seems dreadful now.

And I greew up in the city, and am now trying to get the hell out of here and into the suburbs where I have space and peace and quiet. And for the money spent on housing in NYC you can live like royalty elsewhere.; 2/20/13, 1:45 PM
Larry J said...: Brian said...
I yield to no-one in my pro-natalism, but if the alternative is that some poor children should be saddled with those women as their mothers, I'll take my chances on a less-populated world in my old age.

Of all the decisions one makes in life, the decision on whether or not to have children is one of the most personal. I fully approve of people like those interviewed in the article choosing not to have children, both for their sakes but mostly for any children they could have.; 2/20/13, 1:49 PM
Known Unknown said...: Conservatives have a lot of children, those children grow up evangelical or Mormon, they vote Republican. The Republican Party has been taken over by the religious right, and since they are now the Party in power and childlessness has long since reached critical mass and must now be reversed to keep our society from collapsing, ( whew, run on sentence?)the extremist Republican Party fines couples who do not meet the two children qualification, to remain married. Or submit to artificial insemination, or egg donor, or use of surrogate, or adoption.

Man, you're a fucking nutjob.; 2/20/13, 1:57 PM
Renee said...: I would live in the suburbs, but I don't want to completely tied down to having a car to go everywhere. It is nice to walk places. Can't this coexist with children?; 2/20/13, 1:58 PM
Renee said...: EMD,

It's just a fictional scenario.; 2/20/13, 2:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Renee, thanks, some here do not like or cannot grasp hypotheticals, alas.; 2/20/13, 2:05 PM
Anonymous said...: I wonder if it's a type of Asperger's, something that occurs at higher rate in Engineer types.; 2/20/13, 2:07 PM
Ann Althouse said...: Gatsby sentence finally up.; 2/20/13, 2:07 PM
Anonymous said...: Wyo Sis, that might be true in most situations, but doesn't seem to be true when it comes to abortion. Somehow bigger government involvement seems to be seen as a positive then.; 2/20/13, 2:12 PM
Unknown said...: "The singular girl-cum-nonsense machine winded on, grubbing furiously through the sad remnants of a fraudulently divine thought, its soul tattooed with an immensity of loneliness only gravediggers and lighthouse captains could bear without regret."; 2/20/13, 2:15 PM
Known Unknown said...: EMD,

It's just a fictional scenario.

So?; 2/20/13, 2:17 PM
Anonymous said...: EMD, do you consider science fiction writers nut cases too? Do you limit your reading to non fiction? I sense a huge lack of imagination in you.; 2/20/13, 2:20 PM
Deirdre Mundy said...: Renee-- midwestern small town. Nice-sized lots, but walk to church/bank/city hall/stores/schools/groceries (If you don't buy too much at once)/parks/farmers market/library/some doctors-dentrists. If you need to drive somewhere, no congestion. Ridiculously low taxes and housing prices. fiberoptic internet and Amazon prime. (Sorry for poor capitalization. typing onehanded as toddler is asleep on arm....); 2/20/13, 2:23 PM
Known Unknown said...: EMD, do you consider science fiction writers nut cases too? Do you limit your reading to non fiction? I sense a huge lack of imagination in you.

I'm a screenwriter and creative director.

Your ability to read people is awful, really.

I just don't get the point of hypotheticals here, when we could just speak directly about people, occurrences and events that are in the post.

I took the same issue with the Professor's punching robot hypothetical — it wasn't really needed to grasp the subject matter and hand.; 2/20/13, 2:23 PM
Known Unknown said...: *at hand*; 2/20/13, 2:23 PM
Anonymous said...: EMD, then I wonder just how succesful you are in your chosen field. You appear to be less than creative here on these threads, from your comments.; 2/20/13, 2:30 PM
n.n said...: edutcher:

I think they are, but perhaps they didn't. It's one thing to control the development and viability of undesirables. It's quite another to isolate your own from considering the same arguments.

Marshal:

They were promised a return and are unlikely to consider the reality of their fulfillment. However, I would distinguish between the "genie" and the "lamp owner". I think they each have their own motivations, which may align in principle, but are ultimately divergent in purpose.

Deirdre Mundy:

Yes, that's the investment. It is near, and dear, and it is our children. They even offer a stimulating conversation when they are sufficiently old and wise. That is the circle of life.

mccullough:

The problem is indeed comprehensive. It is certainly not limited to social issues or domestic affairs per se, but it does focus on how we respect individual dignity and reconcile it with the inviolable constraints of nature.

wyo sis:

Exactly. No one in their right mind would propose coercion. The issue is principally concerned with rationally distinguishing between behaviors to normalize, tolerate, and reject. The problem is that behaviors which could be tolerated, have instead been normalized. The consequences are elective abortions in the millions, physical and mental degradation of survivors, and an insidious devaluation of human life.

They had a choice and they chose their material, physical, and ego gratification. They did not have to choose reproduction, but they should not have attempted to normalize their dysfunctional behaviors.; 2/20/13, 2:31 PM
Known Unknown said...: EMD, then I wonder just how succesful you are in your chosen field. You appear to be less than creative here on these threads, from your comments.

I could tell you, but I don't boast about shit like you do.; 2/20/13, 2:36 PM
Known Unknown said...: EMD, do you consider science fiction writers nut cases too?

Ha ha. A lot of them are.; 2/20/13, 2:37 PM
Anonymous said...: EMD, you are just being a jerk now. Why don't you admit that it was YOU who misread me and my hypothetical situation as something I truly believed could happen?

I can only conjecture it was a lack of imagination, or perhaps an attempt to be a jerk, perhaps it was the latter.; 2/20/13, 2:39 PM
Lydia said...: Inga said...
… some here do not like or cannot grasp hypotheticals, alas.

Your Handmaid's Tale–like scenario may be based on a hypothetical, but it's a pernicious one that promotes stereotypes of evangelicals and Mormons.; 2/20/13, 2:42 PM
Known Unknown said...: my hypothetical situation as something I truly believed could happen?

Because you've mentioned it before in non-hypothetical contexts. Not too this level of specificity, but you have certainly alluded to The Handmaid's Tale many times with respect to the very real words and actions of people and politicians you disagree with.; 2/20/13, 2:46 PM
edutcher said...: wyo sis said...

I'm a little confused by Inga's tale.
Do you mean that if conservative Mormons and evangelicals ever get power they'll force people to have children?

No, the She-Wolf of the SS is projecting the Lefties' answer to this problem.

Yet again.

Inga said...

I wonder if it's a type of Asperger's, something that occurs at higher rate in Engineer types.

Asberger's is merely the mal de vogue like ADD.

EMD, you are just being a jerk now. Why don't you admit that it was YOU who misread me and my hypothetical situation as something I truly believed could happen?

Stirring up another lynch mob?

Ann Althouse said...

Gatsby sentence finally up.

The lady's comment coming, in its context, not unlike the bugle call of the cavalry as all seems lost.; 2/20/13, 2:47 PM
Known Unknown said...: Who is going to step up and rescue Inga from my malicious (and non-creative) zeroes and ones?; 2/20/13, 2:48 PM
Anonymous said...: Lydia, freedom of expression extends to scenarios we don't like. It was clearly a hypothetical, no one needed to get their underwear in a bundle, as did EMD.

If I had used Liberals and Democrats in a hypothetical in an opposite type of scenario, I don't think any of the conservatives here would do or say a thing, they'd be nodding their heads in agreement.; 2/20/13, 2:48 PM
Known Unknown said...: I wonder if it's a type of Asperger's, something that occurs at higher rate in Engineer types.

Aspberger's doesn't occur at higher rates in Engineer types. Engineer types occur at higher rates in Aspberger sufferers.; 2/20/13, 2:49 PM
Known Unknown said...: their underwear in a bundle, as did EMD

I'm Hathaway-ing.; 2/20/13, 2:50 PM
Lydia said...: So, Inga, you're smearing whole groups, and proud of it.

Okay, got it.; 2/20/13, 2:52 PM
Anonymous said...: Bullshit EMD, every single time I have brought up the Handmaid's Tale it has been in a hypothetical. It has been unimaginative commenters such as YOU and Marshal who have run with it as something I believed could be a reality in America's future.

It's astounding that a creative director such as yourself can be so unimaginative.; 2/20/13, 2:53 PM
Alex said...: Lots of crypto-racists in here today!; 2/20/13, 2:54 PM
Deirdre Mundy said...: Actually, rather than Handmaid's tale, I could see a redistribution of children scenario.... as in wealthy liberals demanding the 'excess' children of those of us who had many.

Though, in a sense, they've already decided to take the labor of our children through taxes to support their retirement benefits...virtual, if not actual, redistribution of youth.

It's the best of all worlds.. they get their expensive vacations when young AND their retirement benefits when old, without ever having to make the sacrifices necessary to raise the next generation into functional adults...

I wonder if that;s why so many families I know are talking about going Galt-- starting mini-farms, modern homesteading, earn very little, get taxed very little, purchase very little and live directly off the (organic) fruits and meats of their labors...; 2/20/13, 3:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Lydia, what do you not understand about freedom of expression? Did I use terminology that was crude or hateful?

I'm glad it's Althouse and not you Lydia, that owns this blog. I suspect you would shut down expression that didn't comport to your world view.; 2/20/13, 3:01 PM
DADvocate said...: … some here do not like or cannot grasp hypotheticals, alas.

Your Handmaid's Tale–like scenario may be based on a hypothetical, but it's a pernicious one that promotes stereotypes of evangelicals and Mormons.

What she meant was "grasp hypocriticals," i.e. herself.

Who is going to step up and rescue Inga from my malicious (and non-creative) zeroes and ones?

Liberals prefer creative math. That's why a huge deficit is just fine with them. They can creatively explain it away. The explanation doesn't mean shit in the real world, but the real world is boring.

There are lots of conservatives where I work. Only one or two are evangelical and fewer are Mormoms. (That means none that I know of.) But, since when do bigots care about boring reality? It's more fun to be creative and make shit up.; 2/20/13, 3:05 PM
Deirdre Mundy said...: But yeah...I am confused why liberals immediately assume conservatives would force them to reproduce.

Oh, right... because killing unborn children is the only way to avoid pregnancy....

And sex is the only thing worth doing with your life... an existence without random hookups with no consequences is the highest form of humanity...

Other than banning abortion, how would conservatives affect your ability not to reproduce? Why would we WANT you to have kids against your will? The scifi scenario is unrealistic as it relies on really poor, cardboard cut-out versions of people.

Now, I could see America breaking into two nations.... the coastal, urban regions where blue-state policies reign supreme and children are rare, and then a natalist interior.... You can sort of already see this trend when you look at governments and state legislatures...

The interesting scifi question is.... at what point is the difference so extreme that the US can no longer endure as a single political entity, and what policy or even pushes us into dissolution?; 2/20/13, 3:06 PM
Known Unknown said...: If I had used Liberals and Democrats in a hypothetical in an opposite type of scenario, I don't think any of the conservatives here would do or say a thing, they'd be nodding their heads in agreement.

Please enumerate for me all of the Right-Wing Christian Totalitarian governments that have flourished over the past century, and the death tolls correlating with their rise and perpetuation in comparison with the rise and fall of godless communist and socialist totalitarian governments.

I just use history as my guide. It demonstrates to me that Handmaid's Tale scenarios are laughably remote.; 2/20/13, 3:13 PM
Anonymous said...: Dierde, My scenario was clearly a hypothetical. Your comment about what liberals think is not. Why do you think liberals think this way, your words,

"Oh, right... because killing unborn children is the only way to avoid pregnancy....

And sex is the only thing worth doing with your life... an existence without random hookups with no consequences is the highest form of humanity..."

Do you not realize that you just painted all liberals as the cardboard cutouts you just said I did? And yours was not a hypothetical, was it? And I can see conservatives here nodding their heads in agreement with you.

I can guarantee you that liberals believe in family and procreation, I have four children and I know many liberal Democratic families with children.; 2/20/13, 3:17 PM
Renee said...: "Actually, rather than Handmaid's tale, I could see a redistribution of children scenario.... as in wealthy liberals demanding the 'excess' children of those of us who had many."

After my fourth, the nurse suggested I should become a 'surrogate'. I thought it was inappropriate, but I assume she was just making conversation in jest.

The reliance is heavy on surrogates as individuals postpone. It's like custom ordering babies. So creepy, especially how women by contract lose control of their bodies for another, other then their child. You can see a woman sacrificing for her own child, to be pregnant. But to do it for cash, in which the paying for the pregnancy can tell you what you can and can't do. Even if you must terminate.; 2/20/13, 3:19 PM
Deirdre Mundy said...: But Inga, you associate a 'conservative government' with one that would force people to reproduce.

And the main 'conservative' point that touches on reproduction is an opposition to abortion....

So, if lack of access to abortion isn't what you fear, why do you assume conservative religious types would FORCE child conception and child bearing?

You seem to assume that 'no one must kill an unborn child' is equivalent to 'all must procreate.'

Why?; 2/20/13, 3:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Renee, I suppose a childless woman who has healthy eggs and a husband who has healthy sperm, but she cannot carry the child for some health related reason,would be grateful for a surrogate to carry their biological child. I could never be a surrogate as I would be too attached to the life carried for 9 monhs to give it up to the biological parents.; 2/20/13, 3:24 PM
Anonymous said...: No Dierde, not at all. Again some of you are assuming my hypothetical is something I truly believe. Why is that?; 2/20/13, 3:26 PM
test said...: Lydia said...
Inga said...
… some here do not like or cannot grasp hypotheticals, alas.

Your Handmaid's Tale–like scenario may be based on a hypothetical, but it's a pernicious one that promotes stereotypes of evangelicals and Mormons.

Plus it wasn't actually a hypothetical since she proffered it as a reason to vote for Obama.; 2/20/13, 3:26 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/13, 3:31 PM
traditionalguy said...: EMD...For a century back, the right wing Totalitarian Christian Government causing world wide cruelty with a high death toll, that would be the British Empire under its hereditary Monarch with its State Religion, that is if the Anglican Church can be classified as Christian. i; 2/20/13, 3:32 PM
Deirdre Mundy said...: Inga, because Hypotheticals have to have some basis in your view of reality if you expect people to engage with them and argue with them.

Otherwise, they're just nonsense like:

Hey, maybe declining birth rates will cause the lizard people from hollow earth to emerge from their burrows, devour our menfolk, get our women with clutches of half-lizard, half human eggs, causing a massive global catastrophe as the magma rays boil the seas up!!

You can't put a hypothetical out as possible and then say that you were just spouting nonsense when the discussion doesn't go your way.

Well, you CAN...but it's sort of childish....

Meanwhile, I will stick with my lizard-people-magma scenario to the death. It's coming, folks. Just ask the queen of England and her secret lizard feet...; 2/20/13, 3:32 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: The "Handmaid's Tale" is a false and pernicious piece of political propaganda.

Somehow, Inga, you haven't even noticed that Margaret Atwood failed to predict that it would be Muslims who attempted the political takeover of Canada and the institution of repressive Sharia law. Instead, she slandered Christians.

Atwood is a fucking idiot propagandist. If you want to be taken serious, cease referring to this moron.; 2/20/13, 3:33 PM
Anonymous said...: My hypothetical, for commenters here who don't grasp what my point was is this, my scenario was meant to be a bit outlandish as a contrast to the REALITY of what would probably happen in the future. Here is what I wrote, perhaps some of you are so sensitive to anyone who in anyway paints conservatives in less than a positive light that you jumped to the conclusion that this is how I truly saw the future. Get a grip.

Hey Marshal, here's a perfect opportunity to bring up my Handmaid's Tale scenario of sorts.

"Conservatives have a lot of children, those children grow up evangelical or Mormon, they vote Republican. The Republican Party has been taken over by the religious right, and since they are now the Party in power and childlessness has long since reached critical mass and must now be reversed to keep our society from collapsing, ( whew, run on sentence?)the extremist Republican Party fines couples who do not meet the two children qualification, to remain married. Or submit to artificial insemination, or egg donor, or use of surrogate, or adoption.

OR, much more realistically, most of those young 20 something's that are talking the talk of childlessness now, meet someone they adore, start feeling their biological clock ticking and before age 40, have a child or two. We could try to make things easier for childbearing couples, like a tax credit as discussed in the article, or more paid time off after the birth of the baby, or time off for the father too."

2/20/13, 1:17 PM; 2/20/13, 3:33 PM
Known Unknown said...: EMD...For a century back, the right wing Totalitarian Christian Government causing world wide cruelty with a high death toll, that would be the British Empire under its hereditary Monarch with its State Religion, that is if the Anglican Church can be classified as Christian. i

Well, that's sort-of one, I guess.; 2/20/13, 3:34 PM
DADvocate said...: Oh, right... because killing unborn children is the only way to avoid pregnancy....

And sex is the only thing worth doing with your life... an existence without random hookups with no consequences is the highest form of humanity...

Pretty much hits the nail on the head. On top of this, we get people like Sandra Fluke who insist WE pay for her birth control and abortions. If WE don't pay for her birth control, or abortions, WE'RE at war with women and forcing them to have children. Expecting them to provide their own birth control or keep it in their panties is out of the question. Their urge to copulate is too great to resist.; 2/20/13, 3:35 PM
edutcher said...: And so the mob finally turns on the She-Wolf of the SS, much as it did at Buchenwald.

Enjoy the decline, liebling.; 2/20/13, 3:35 PM
Anonymous said...: Dierde, of course my hypothetical was borne out of something I VERY VERY loosely believe about the religious right and conservatism. I'm sure some of you conservatives here have ideas about liberals that we would consider equally silly and outlandish and childish.; 2/20/13, 3:37 PM
Known Unknown said...: From 8/21/2012

In response to Todd Akin.; 2/20/13, 3:38 PM
traditionalguy said...: Inga is a smart lady. She can imagine a better world for people, and that is fine with me. We need vision to set the target and realists to get to it.

I hope my last comment to EMD is not too hypothetical for the rationals to decipher. Context changes things.; 2/20/13, 3:38 PM
Deirdre Mundy said...: Inga-- like they want to divide children from parents at ever younger ages, because since they haven't reproduced physically, they feel driven to reproduce idealogically through an educational establishment which takes control from preschool on?

Totally laughable, that. I mean, you'd have to be a full-out socialist to push for universal preK, right> It could never happen here....; 2/20/13, 3:41 PM
Anonymous said...: Edutcher, that is pretty sick, even coming from you. I am ethnically German, my ancestors haven't resided in Germany since 1720. My ancestors have been in Hungary and Croatia since that time. This continuous disparagement and name calling and associating me with the Nazi's is pretty sick. I married a Jewish man and had four children with him, how fucking dare you in any way connect me to Buchenwald, you pig of a human being.; 2/20/13, 3:42 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: The Handmaid's Tale is another sick fucking piece of feminist propaganda, which, as usual, got everything wrong.

Canada isn't suffering from an attempted takeover from Christian fundamentalists.

Canadian Muslims are attempting same and insisting on the institution of Sharia Law. Christian fundamentalists are being persecuted by the Canadian government for preaching the Biblical view about homosexuality.

Inga, get a grip. Stop talking about The Handmaid's Tale. It's an atrocity of vicious stupidity.; 2/20/13, 3:46 PM
Known Unknown said...: From 8/21/2012

In response to Todd Akin.

She had a different user name at that time, if the comment is not clear.; 2/20/13, 3:47 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes ST, we must shut down freedom of expression, unless it comports to your world view. Any and all insults to those of us who dare speak our minds (even in hypotheticals) is fair, right? It's fair and just to call me a Nazi and connect me to Buchenwald, right ST? Does Edutcher represent the majority of you conservatives on this thread? Does he speak for you?; 2/20/13, 3:51 PM
edutcher said...: I thought you said you were born in Austria, dear. Funny that.

But your continued attempts to apply Uncle Saul's tactics against lynch mob tactics are pretty sick also.

Largely for the offense of deflating your nonsense.

So, what's sauce for the goose..., as they say, but all I do is make a simple historical analogy. Would it feel better if I compared your tactics to the agents of the Cultural Revolution or the NKVD?

And, oh, yes, there were Catholics in those camps, too, you know.

There were next on Der Fuhrer's list.; 2/20/13, 3:52 PM
Anonymous said...: And EMD, you once again fail at reading people. Do you understand the use of hyperbole?; 2/20/13, 3:54 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: Doesn't have anything to do with shutting down freedom of expression.

Sane people don't refer to insane political tracts for "hypotheticals" if they want to be taken seriously.; 2/20/13, 3:54 PM
Renee said...: Ummm...

But I got it.

This thread is a little embarrassing.; 2/20/13, 3:55 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: Think of The Handmaid's Tale as a vicious attack on Christians in the same vein that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is against Jews.; 2/20/13, 3:56 PM
Renee said...: Igna,

But I feel people are meeting someone a little too late. The panic of the eggs are drying up in your early 30s, no matter how true, doesn't help.

As for paranoia, I do believe that hormonal birth control has affected the environment and fertility.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-kim/birth-control-water-and-w_b_385532.html

"You can also add to the mix the new "menstrual suppression" drugs that are currently being marketed to young women, mostly through the re-branding menstruation as an annoyance to be contained or even eliminated outright (i.e. why let your monthly blood interfere with that hot date or your yoga class?). Menstrual suppression drugs are pretty much birth control pills in a new wrapper, only minus the placebo week that gives Pill-users that paltry week of phony flow; and if they catch on, they too will add to the excessive load of estrogen being pumped into our rivers, streams and lakes."; 2/20/13, 3:58 PM
madAsHell said...: I could see a redistribution of children scenario

....from my cold, dead hands.; 2/20/13, 4:00 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/13, 4:02 PM
Seeing Red said...: Whoa, back it up. Inga's talking about freedom of expression?

INGA?

LOLOLOLOLOL; 2/20/13, 4:02 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/13, 4:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Edutcher you asshole of monumental proportions, I was born in Austria to refugees from Croatia. My parents and their parents were born in Slavonia,Croatia. My father served in the Yugoslavian Army, not the German Army. The ethnic Germans were "cleansed" out of Croatia at the end of the 2nd WW. Millions of ethnic Germans who had not set foot in Germany for centuries were included in that ethnic cleansing and streamed into countries like Austria as refugees. Many of them married and started families in Displaced Persons camps in Austria and waited for 10 years to obtain Visa's to the USA, as did my family. Austrains did not appreciate these Croatians being in their country.

We had an entire branch of my fathers family that had emigrated to Milwaukee I the 1800's, who sponsored us. It's sad that I've had to repeat this several times now and continue to be called a Nazi by you.; 2/20/13, 4:07 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: It's fair and just to call me a Nazi and connect me to Buchenwald, right ST?

Well, Inga, if you don't want people to go overboard with you, you might want to refrain from plunging into the abyss when you want to amuse yourself.; 2/20/13, 4:08 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: In a similar fashion, Inga, my professors and TAs started taunting me with my purported membership in the KKK as soon as I walked onto campus at the U of Illinois in 1966 at the tender age of 16.

My family is Catholic. If you know the history of the Klan, you know that the Klan was violently anti-Catholic.

Try explaining this to a liberal race monger.

I long ago gave up trying to clear this up.; 2/20/13, 4:14 PM
Known Unknown said...: I'm going to start using The Running Man hypotheticals to make my points, even though I don't believe in the future that story describes.; 2/20/13, 4:15 PM
Anonymous said...: ST, there is something so fundamentally wrong with rationalizing people's actions when they plunge to the very lowest depths of retaliatory insult. I would think that it should and would embarrass commenters here to have someone such as Edutcher on their "side".; 2/20/13, 4:16 PM
Seeing Red said...: Inga, the world you envision couldn't even pass in Mississippi or South Dakota, look up the votes.; 2/20/13, 4:17 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: Apparently you haven't noticed, Inga, but my political opinion is that nobody is on my side.

I'm in this on my own.; 2/20/13, 4:18 PM
Known Unknown said...: I would think that it should and would embarrass commenters here to have someone such as Edutcher on their "side".

Yeah! The scold! The peer pressure!

The "sides"!

I have no side.; 2/20/13, 4:19 PM
Anonymous said...: ST and that is why I respect you, despite disagreeing with you fairly often.; 2/20/13, 4:20 PM
Known Unknown said...: The problem with those types of hypotheticals (and conservatives use them as well ... there's 1984 and Animal Farm and Hunger Games ones employed from time to time) is they allow the commenter to ascribe the worst possible motives to their immediate political opponents without the burden of proof, by the fact that the commenters themselves deny belief in the very predictive universe they've created to relate to their contemporary political positions.; 2/20/13, 4:24 PM
Jane the Actuary said...: Not to interrupt all the name-calling, but there are two things going on here: a general drop in the birth rate, and (I imagine) significant differences in birth rates among regions, varying by religiousity, and (least PC), by class/level of education. My impression is that the least-educated among us are popping out the most kids. A bit scary, if you figure there's any relationship between intelligence and education, and any degree to which intelligence is inherited. Of course, I don't have any actual data. . .; 2/20/13, 4:24 PM
edutcher said...: Inga said...

Edutcher you asshole of monumental proportions, I was born in Austria to refugees from Croatia. My parents and their parents were born in Slavonia,Croatia.

And here I took you literally when you said, "Edutcher, that is pretty sick, even coming from you. I am ethnically German, my ancestors haven't resided in Germany since 1720."

Ah, well, the further we go, the more we have to amend the story.

Lucky my forebears kept it simple - my father's family to Nieuw Amsterdam in the 1660s, my mother's to Philadelphia in the first wave from Ireland.

The issue still comes back to the fact that every time I disagree with you, you want to get the mob on your side. Now the mob has turned, as it did when the camps were liberated, but I can use the Cultural Revolution just as well because they used the same tactics.

And, compared to them, Dolf was a piker; only 14 million compared to 66 million.

The Commies were worse, dear.; 2/20/13, 4:30 PM
Deirdre Mundy said...: Jane-- not exactly-- if you look at the stats, it's even odder...

The average number of kids is slightly below replacement BUT

The median number for those who have kids is around 3..

So most people who choose to have kids, whatever their background, have a decent number of them...

Also, it's hard to gauge economic status accurately once stay-at-home parents enter the mix...

Two couples, both earning 45K with 3 kids.

One is two people with very little education each earning 22K a year

One is a college prof married to a stay-at-home spouse.

On paper, they're economically the same. But are they really the same in terms of what the kids have, what they learn, how much time they spend parked in front of the TV?

It tends to look like poor people are having kids because, in part, having kids makes you TEMPORARILY poor.; 2/20/13, 4:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Jane, how interesting that no one here is jumping all over your comment that it appears that the least educated are having the most children. Renee had 5, Synova has four, wyo Sis has 5, I have four, several other conservative female commenters here have four or more children. I don't see a basis for your observation here on Althouse, at least.; 2/20/13, 4:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Ah I see Dierde has addressed it.; 2/20/13, 4:38 PM
KCFleming said...: Demographic decline and childlessness, all foretold in Children of Men.

And the opposite "foretold" by that master of error, Paul Ehrlich (The Population Bomb), and why doesn't someone shut him up?; 2/20/13, 4:41 PM
test said...: DADvocate said...
we get people like Sandra Fluke who insist WE pay for her birth control and abortions. If WE don't pay for her birth control, or abortions, WE'RE at war with women and forcing them to have children.

I think you're missing the worst of the indictment. Her preference was for us to pay $3,300 a year rather than she pay $300 or so.; 2/20/13, 4:41 PM
Renee said...: When at most you can make 10-13 dollars an hour, and you're a single parent. You're poor whether you have one or four children.; 2/20/13, 4:42 PM
Seeing Red said...: Ahhh, this is why I am happy as an American, 1 side's been here almost 400 years, now if we could only find the Indian who's supposed to be in the family..........; 2/20/13, 4:43 PM
Unknown said...: "doesn't seem to be true when it comes to abortion. Somehow bigger government involvement seems to be seen as a positive then."

Conservatives don't want bigger government involvement in abortions they want no government in abortions.; 2/20/13, 4:44 PM
edutcher said...: Jane said...

Not to interrupt all the name-calling, but there are two things going on here: a general drop in the birth rate, and (I imagine) significant differences in birth rates among regions, varying by religiousity, and (least PC), by class/level of education. My impression is that the least-educated among us are popping out the most kids.

I think you may find that's not entirely true.

While it was the whole culture of the the Welfare Queen back in the 50s and 60s, the fact that the black population is actually decreasing suggests the poorer, less educated strata are following the Gospel According to Margaret Sanger and aborting their kids.

Further, if James Taranto is right about the Roe Effect, the people having 3, 4, or 5 kids are the Sarah Palins of this country - hardly the less educated; The Blonde's oldest niece (a nurse hitched to a fireman/EMT) has 3 and will probably have a fourth (her best bud, also a nurse, has 3); her best bud's younger daughter (husband is a minister) already has 4, is looking forward to a 5th, and says she'd eventually like 8 (an outlier, granted).

Not picking a fight, just offering a contrasting observation.; 2/20/13, 4:49 PM
Unknown said...: We should probably note here that conservatives, Republicans, and evangelicals/Mormons are three different groups with sometimes overlapping values, but not necessarily lockstep.; 2/20/13, 4:59 PM
joe said...: //Edutcher you asshole of monumental proportions, I was born in Austria to refugees from Croatia. My parents and their parents were born in Slavonia,Croatia.//

Yea, that's the ticket, and a person with a surname ending in "ER"(first name was Adolph) was also born in Austria.

Hey Inga, another Aleman went off and murdered some of those sub-humans again..... Chris DornER.

You see Inga, inventing half-truths is natural to you, since you also said your family is nothing more then Aleman's who invaded Slovakia, aka, Sudetenland.; 2/20/13, 5:10 PM
test said...: Inga said...
EMD, do you consider science fiction writers nut cases too? Do you limit your reading to non fiction? I sense a huge lack of imagination in you.

Somhow I have a hard time believing Inga would support someone claiming we should vote for Romney because Democrats just don't take the risk of an alien invasion seriously enough. But that's what she's claiming here.; 2/20/13, 5:14 PM
Anonymous said...: Joe, you dummy. My family has never stepped foot in the Sudentland, or Czechoslovakia. My ancestors went to the Ausro Hungarian lands ruled by the Empress Maria Theresa, in 1720. Then in the 1800's they migrated east and south to the lands known as Yugolsavia, where they remained until the end of the second WW.

Are you truly this ignorant Joe? You don't know the difference between the Sudentland (Czechoslovakia) and Yugoslavia?; 2/20/13, 5:31 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/13, 5:36 PM
Anonymous said...: And Joe, the lands that were won back from the Turks by Maria Theresa's army were swampland, uninhabited. Not even the Slavic people were in this area.; 2/20/13, 5:38 PM
Renee said...: Meanwhile...

Sierra Club Protestors Call for One-Child Policy in the U.S.

"During a Sierra Club sponsored protest against the Keystone XL pipeline on the National Mall in Washington, D.C., last Sunday, several of the protestors expressed support for population control measures including the implementation of a global one-child policy similar to China’s brutal and draconian policy.

“I do believe that our Earth is overpopulated,” one of the protestors said in a video released this week by Americans for Limited Government. When asked if it’s time for a one-child policy, the man replied, “I’m all for that. One child, maybe two child max.”"; 2/20/13, 5:42 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/13, 5:43 PM
Anonymous said...: If Althouse does Croatia today, I will just have to cut and paste my ancestors story from here to there. Joe and Edutcher perhaps you should start reading Althouse's countries series. The ignorance is strong in you two.; 2/20/13, 5:45 PM
Known Unknown said...: If Althouse does Croatia today, I will just have to cut and paste my ancestors story from here to there. Joe and Edutcher perhaps you should start reading Althouse's countries series. The ignorance is strong in you two.

Or maybe they just say dumb things because your outrage is predictable.; 2/20/13, 5:46 PM
test said...: Inga said...
The ignorance is strong in you two.

The irony, it burns.; 2/20/13, 5:46 PM
Anonymous said...: No they say dumb thngs because the ARE dumb.; 2/20/13, 5:51 PM
Anonymous said...: It's so predictable, there are the same actors here who continually display the most vile aspects of conservatism. IF I was here on this blog with the sole purpose of making you conservatives look like jerks, haters, racists and ignoramuses, you would be making my job so very very easy. Why do SOME of you pride yourselves in being The Stupid Party?; 2/20/13, 5:56 PM
edutcher said...: EMD said...

If Althouse does Croatia today, I will just have to cut and paste my ancestors story from here to there. Joe and Edutcher perhaps you should start reading Althouse's countries series. The ignorance is strong in you two.

Or maybe they just say dumb things because your outrage is predictable.

If the She-Wolf of the SS followed its own advice, said She-Wolf would know I've been reading it all along.

And I don't say dumb things, I contradict the She-Wolf's Alinskyesque attempts at community organization in support of the Obamatron agenda.

She hates that.

But, yes, EMD, sometimes it is fun to watch the screaming ensue when you put forth the most basic of truths.; 2/20/13, 5:59 PM
edutcher said...: PS I also had an observation about Jane's contention regarding the poor having more kids.

You notice the She-Wolf of the SS doesn't want to go near that one.

No chance to call somebody racist or part of the Stupid Party.; 2/20/13, 6:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Good Lord Edutcher, you are the King of Fools here on the SS Althouse, be proud.; 2/20/13, 6:04 PM
edutcher said...: Considering the She-Wolf loves to call anyone she doesn't like or with whom she disagrees dumb, you'd think he/she was Hatman.; 2/20/13, 6:17 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/13, 6:19 PM
Anonymous said...: No Edutcher there are many commenters here I disagree with that I consider quite intelligent, unfortunately you don't belong in that group.; 2/20/13, 6:20 PM
edutcher said...: She-Wolf needs to look upward.; 2/20/13, 6:41 PM
Known Unknown said...: Drudge cruelly makes light of Chris Christie's body fat percentage.; 2/20/13, 6:56 PM
Revenant said...: A new born baby remains the best creation miracle we ever get to participate in up close. But avoiding miracles sounds much safer to unbelievers.

Anyone who thinks childbirth is a miracle needs to take a couple of sex ed classes. :)

Children, like all humans, are amazing. But amazing and miraculous are not the same thing at all.; 2/20/13, 7:06 PM
Renee said...: Revenant,

I hate when people say a baby is a gift. When I think of gifts, I think of material things. Not people.; 2/20/13, 7:10 PM
ed said...: @ Inga

Seriously your "Handmaid's Tale" scenario is frankly idiotic in any number of ways. And as EMD has already stated why bother with postulating such nonsense here when there are real world situations to discuss?

The reality is that neither Evangelicals nor Mormons would find any satisfaction in forcing liberals to have kids because you liberals would raise them as liberals.

They would be much more inclined to let ObamaCare take it's natural course, let the various policy panels exclude what expensive treatments necessary to keep you alive and let you die on your own petard.

Meanwhile they can continue having more kids, raise them in their respective faiths and watch as your segment of the population slowly, or not so slowly, dies out and disappears.

The nice thing about death is that it clears the slate. The not so nice thing is that the only ones who then get to write on that slate are the kids of the next generations.; 2/20/13, 7:12 PM
ed said...: @ Inga

"It's so predictable, there are the same actors here who continually display the most vile aspects of conservatism."

Yea those .... those ... bastards!

Why they want smaller government to take less of your money, be more fiscally responsible to prevent an economic meltdown and have the government leave people alone to live their lives how they want.

The rotters!; 2/20/13, 7:15 PM
ed said...: @ Marshal

"I think you're missing the worst of the indictment. Her preference was for us to pay $3,300 a year rather than she pay $300 or so. "

Actually since Walmart sells birth control for $9 a month it's even less than that.; 2/20/13, 7:22 PM
Anonymous said...: Ed, nope those are the better qualities, why do YOU consider them to be the most vile aspects? I don't and I'm a liberal!

Or are you trying to put words in my mouth? That would not be a good quality, now would it be? It gives me the opportunity to say you are being disingenuous, a bad quality.; 2/20/13, 7:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Why do some of you here allow me to cut your leg off and then beat you over the head with it?

Don't you realize what you're doing? As I keep saying, some of you are making it too easy for me to make you look bad.; 2/20/13, 7:28 PM
Revenant said...: I'm a little confused by Inga's tale.

That's not surprising, given that it makes no sense from either a political or a religious perspective.

Religiously, of course, the scenario Inga describes is abhorrent to the Christians she has implementing it.

Furthermore, the groups in question have fertility rates in excess of the replacement rate. So politically, if they were in a position to "solve" the fertility rate problem that way, there wouldn't be a fertility rate problem to solve anymore. Christian conservatives don't need to force a demographic solution -- demographically, they'll win in the end by math alone.

Inasmuch as "The Handmaid's Tale" made any sense, it did so because the fertility rate of humanity had been reduced by external environmental factors.; 2/20/13, 7:29 PM
Revenant said...: doesn't seem to be true when it comes to abortion. Somehow bigger government involvement seems to be seen as a positive then

Saying "the government is involved in X" when you mean "the government is trying to eradicate X" is bad English.

E.g., you would not describe the laws against rape by saying "the government is involved in rape". You say that when describing a government that is promoting or managing acts of rape, e.g. as the Japanese government did in 1930s Nanjing.

As for your discovery that small-government conservatives are not, in fact, anarchists: congrats on catching up with the rest of us. :); 2/20/13, 7:37 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: All through school I was part of a group of eight friends who stuck together through thick and thin. It's interesting to me to consider our childbearing choices now that we're in our thirties: one has a tasteful two, I have four, another one has four, and the other five have have zero each. The childless ones have no room in their lives after the hipster hobbies (biking! knitting! homemade jam!) and the devotion to liberal causes. Unsurprisingly they live in the cool parts of Seattle and Portland surrounded by others of their kind. I love them but as I consider their politics to be poorly thought out and, frankly, destructive, I won't shed too many tears to see their lifestyle go the way of the Shakers.; 2/20/13, 7:43 PM
Revenant said...: Think of The Handmaid's Tale as a vicious attack on Christians in the same vein that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is against Jews.

The Handmaid's Tale is a vicious attack on Christians in the same vein that The Passion of the Christ is against Jews.; 2/20/13, 7:44 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: Oh great, y'all chummed the water and Cedarford will be along any minute.; 2/20/13, 7:47 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/13, 7:50 PM
joe said...: //My family has never stepped foot in the Sudentland, or Czechoslovakia. My ancestors went to the Ausro Hungarian lands ruled by the Empress Maria Theresa, in 1720. Then in the 1800's they migrated east and south to the lands known as Yugolsavia, where they remained until the end of the second WW//

More half truths from Inga.

"Sudetenland was a region that was ethnically German. Prior to the first world war the region had been part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Peace Settlements placed the region within the newly created state of Czechoslovakia. The bulk of people in Czechoslovakia were Czechs or Slovaks. The Sudeten Germans did not like being the minority group and wanted to be in a German speaking nation."

BYOwn fact/statement that "prior to the First WW1" your klan was in the Austrian/German/Hungarian empire prior to WW1. That makes you, and your klan nothing but Alemans seeking other lands to colonize.

And now your here in the USA, bringing your wandervogel strife to avenge your Alemanic loss of culture rooted in eliminating sub-humans by any means possible. SEE Chris DornER.; 2/20/13, 7:50 PM
test said...: Inga said...
As I keep saying, some of you are making it too easy for me to make you look bad.

Wait, I've seen this movie:

Allie II: The Delusions Continue; 2/20/13, 7:50 PM
Anonymous said...: Don't forget about The Children of Men. Should liberals feel as if they are being attacked by that book?; 2/20/13, 7:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Joe, what is your shtick with the Aleman thing? What does it have to do with me? Althouse is a German name, is Althouse one of the bad nasty Aleman's too? Shouldn't you be addressing your strange blabberings about Aleman people to her too? Or maybe to the rest of the commentariat here who have German ancestors?; 2/20/13, 7:57 PM
joe said...: Inga said:

Why do some of you here allow me to cut your leg off and then beat you over the head with it?

Always a reference to violence and especially "assholes." BDSM, it's what Alemans do best.

Don't you realize what you're doing? As I keep saying, some of you are making it too easy for me to make you look bad.

Why. it's almost if your back in the Old World ordering those sub-humans to be "bad" so you can correct their "badness".......with that whip, you She Devil of the SS.; 2/20/13, 8:01 PM
Anonymous said...: "joe", has anyone told you yet you are a weirdo?; 2/20/13, 8:04 PM
Anonymous said...: You're, not your.; 2/20/13, 8:06 PM
Anonymous said...: My 8:06 to "joe", you misspelled "you're" twice now.; 2/20/13, 8:08 PM
joe said...: Inga said:

What does it have to do with me?

Ah, because you don't know inductive reasoning from deductive reasoning and are unaware of your homophobia?; 2/20/13, 8:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Ohhhh no Joe, you were proven wrong on that, I was right about the meaning of deductive reasoning, dontcha remember, who was that very intelligent commenter who agreed with me and disagreed with YOU?; 2/20/13, 8:14 PM
joe said...: //My 8:06 to "joe", you misspelled "you're" twice now.//

Now, another lesson for ya Inga, humility.

Thank you for the grammar correction. You're being fed your own weirdo world.....; 2/20/13, 8:17 PM
edutcher said...: joe said...

Why. it's almost if your back in the Old World ordering those sub-humans to be "bad" so you can correct their "badness".......with that whip, you She Devil of the SS.

Well, she always got the color of the corset wrong. I guess we knew why.

And I like that She Devil even better than She-Wolf.; 2/20/13, 8:20 PM
Anonymous said...: Dearest joe, since you are so humble, you won't mind admitting you were wrong about what constitutes inductive as opposed to deductive reasoning. And perhaps you should consider that you look like a person who seems to have some weird fixation about people of "Alemanic" ancestry.; 2/20/13, 8:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Joe, you're a Cedarford in reverse! I knew you reminded me of someone, sorry Cedarford.; 2/20/13, 8:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Henceforth I shall call you Cedarjoe.; 2/20/13, 8:35 PM
Seeing Red said...: --“I do believe that our Earth is overpopulated,” one of the protestors said in a video released this week by Americans for Limited Government. When asked if it’s time for a one-child policy, the man replied, “I’m all for that. One child, maybe two child max.”"--

Oh, someone should have asked them what the Sierra Club's stance is on immigration.

They should also make sure to follow; 2/20/13, 8:36 PM
Deirdre Mundy said...: I was mulling over this article some more (sorry to interrupt Joe, Inga, etc..) and I thought of one more huge societal issue with the lack of children....

The hipsters in the article talk about the joy of 'intentional communities'- how they choose their companions, as opposed to having to hang out with those icky unpredictable offspring...

Well, kids provide a major benefit to society because of their tendency to create 'unintentional communities.'

Before you have kids, you work with people like you, live near people like you, and socialize with people like you. You live in a bubble of homogeneity...shows about 20-something life like Friends and Girls emphasize this fact--you're in a bubble.

And then you have kids. And suddenly, you're socializing with all sorts of people, because they're at the tee-ball games and the picnics and the playgrounds and the beaches and the school events and the field trips....

Your kids FORCE you to talk with and get to know people from other outside your comfort zone. They force you to meet people outside your economic strata, your educational clique, your little world. Suddenly, you've lost your 'intentional community' and must interact with, dedicate yourself to, and work within your ACTUAL community. Kids are what root us to our communities and involve us in caring for our neighbors...

So... can the liberal project and welfare state survive a world without kids? When society is divided into "My intentional community" and "The other", will society cease to exist?; 2/20/13, 9:44 PM
kentuckyliz said...: Do these women ever marry? Who would marry a woman who spoke of babies as parasites and grubs?; 2/20/13, 10:04 PM
Jane the Actuary said...: Reading assignment for anyone who thinks Germans expelled after WWII were all in the Sudentenland and had it coming to them, anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

My mother-in-law was an ethnic German from Poland. She was only a child at the time, but the story goes like this: her father was conscripted by the Germans and then sent to the Gulag as a POW, when the Poles began to round up the Germans and expel them -- they all slept with their clothes on, because they came in the middle of the night. One night they among those taken to the town square, but were left behind when the trucks were full -- only to find that they had no home to return to, and ended up living as a family of five in a basement room the size of our living room. Afterwards, they lived for a decade as second-class citizens in Poland (which had closed the border after the wave of expulsions were over), until Poland allowed them to leave for West Germany as refugees in the '50s.

Anyway, yeah, sorry this is off-topic.; 2/20/13, 10:13 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/20/13, 10:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Exactly right Jane. There were millions of ethnic German expellees from Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia , Czechoslovakia, Poland, and more countries at the end of WW2. Many of them were conscripted into the German army. My father served in the Yugoslavian Army and was a draft dodger during the war. When he would get a conscription notice from the German army, he would leave town in a hurry. He crossed many a border "black", meaning illegally to get away from the German army.; 2/20/13, 10:23 PM
David Davenport said...: The Republican Party has been taken over by the religious right, and since they are now the Party in power and childlessness has long since reached critical mass and must now be reversed to keep our society from collapsing, ( whew, run on sentence?)the extremist Republican Party fines couples who do not meet the two children qualification ...

The real right wing plot is to brainwash Lefty Liberals into thinking that it's hip not to have kids, so that Lefty Libs can go the way of old time Quakers and Shakers....---> nonviolent Darwinian selection.; 2/20/13, 10:36 PM
Browndog said...: Classic Inga thread.

What am I to do? She calls me by name, and beckons me to her breast, as she beats me about the brow!

Idiots.; 2/20/13, 10:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Browndog, they love it, relax:); 2/20/13, 10:44 PM
Browndog said...: Calling my name, Oh, sweet siren?

No need to relax. I just laugh at your ability, and how they fall for it every single time.

You are a master.

Gotta give credit where credit is do.

An evil bitch will take all the accolades they can get-no?; 2/20/13, 10:57 PM
edutcher said...: kentuckyliz said...

Do these women ever marry? Who would marry a woman who spoke of babies as parasites and grubs?

If they do marry, it's only to be part of a "power couple".

Their world doesn't get past their view of who they are and how superior that is to anyone not in their circle.

Inga said...

Exactly right Jane. There were millions of ethnic German expellees from Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia , Czechoslovakia, Poland, and more countries at the end of WW2. Many of them were conscripted into the German army. My father served in the Yugoslavian Army and was a draft dodger during the war. When he would get a conscription notice from the German army, he would leave town in a hurry. He crossed many a border "black", meaning illegally to get away from the German army.

Since the Krauts occupied, or were allied with, just about all of Europe from '41 on, over what borders did he cross?

PS The Wehrmacht had tanks and horse cavalry and Stukas and all kind of stuff like that there.

Seems like it would have been easy to run him down.

PPS Being a draft dodger, even from the Royal Yugoslav forces isn't exactly a badge of honor.; 2/20/13, 11:13 PM
bagoh20 said...: Hey, I'm 100% German. Smartest, most capable people on the Earth, and sometimes that's a big problem.; 2/21/13, 12:18 AM
Anonymous said...: Idiot Edutcher, my father was a draft dodger from the German army, not the Yugoslavian army. He was out of the Yugoslavian army already by the time the 2nd WW statred.

How dare you insult my father you horses ass. He was a far better and braver man than you ever could hope to be.

And Browndog, I do nothing but be myself. If that is an evil bitch because I am a strong female liberal, than oh well, so be it. I'm fair in my dealings with commenters here, I deal with them as they have dealt with me. Respect earns respect from me.

And if some commenters here want to show their worst traits, I'll let them, then I get to point it out to them. Life is full of lessons. I'm still learning too.; 2/21/13, 1:10 AM
Anonymous said...: *started*

Hi Baggy, you fellow Kraut.; 2/21/13, 1:11 AM
Anonymous said...: And Bagoh, I think Jewish people are far more intelligent than Germans.; 2/21/13, 1:24 AM
Anonymous said...: Gute Nacht, schalff meine kinder. Morgen kommt bald.

Und Edutcher, lech mir im arsch, du grosse ezel.; 2/21/13, 1:28 AM
joe said...: Inga said:

Dearest joe, since you are so humble, you won't mind admitting you were wrong about what constitutes inductive as opposed to deductive reasoning. And perhaps you should consider that you look like a person who seems to have some weird fixation about people of "Alemanic" ancestry.

I don't waste my time going back to some thread where issues were settled between you and me.

//who was that very intelligent commenter who agreed with me and disagreed with YOU?//

I don't know, but at this point, what does it matter/difference?

You see Inga, truth doesn't matter to you and gettin a dose of your own weird world is ........ making words mean what I choose them to mean.

As for the Alemans, they raped women as a natural virtue. Ask a Slave-onic women. Well,ask any women actually. It's the spring waters of Althaus conclusions/concussions and fear from a culture of rape imposed upon everyone/anyone in any nation of the world, where one Aleman exist, in that nation.

A tell, is when a old male Aleman whose name ends in ER, and his first name is Hug(e)h, is judged sexy by a female blogger devoted to rape-rape issues.
Your left to conclude fear or Electra.

P.S. Long sentences, with many clauses inserted into that sentence, is used to imitate Alemanic thoughts.; 2/21/13, 3:00 AM
Renee said...: Do these women ever marry? Who would marry a woman who spoke of babies as parasites and grubs?

If they do marry, it's only to be part of a "power couple".

-----

Yes, I doubt the couple would call anyone else's children parasites or grubs. In fact they love the children from their extended family. Children are a major lifestyle buzz-kill, so if you're really active in progressive ideals, it requires a lot of community action. You can't drag children out to every political/social/media event, and have them hand out at a fundraiser until 10 on a school night. Then their soccer practice gets in the way.; 2/21/13, 4:28 AM
edutcher said...: Inga said...

Idiot Edutcher, my father was a draft dodger from the German army, not the Yugoslavian army. He was out of the Yugoslavian army already by the time the 2nd WW statred.

In that case, you need to specify these things. English grammar can be a pain, can't it?

People take you at your word and you keep having to submit rewrites.

How dare you insult my father you horses ass. He was a far better and braver man than you ever could hope to be.

Since you know nothing about me, that's an interesting trick.

Since he was a Yugo, why did he not join the Partisans? Seems to me, great swathes of the country took to the mountains to fight the Krauts.

Not only Commies, but the Royalist Chetniks, whose real story has only come out the last few years.

I know, all the men in your life are pure of heart and noble intent. Those of us who challenge your nonsense could never compare.

And Browndog, I do nothing but be myself. If that is an evil bitch because I am a strong female liberal, than oh well, so be it. I'm fair in my dealings with commenters here, I deal with them as they have dealt with me. Respect earns respect from me.

As someone here once said, LOL.; 2/21/13, 5:55 AM
Commuter said...: And Browndog, I do nothing but be myself. If that is an evil bitch because I am a strong female liberal, than oh well, so be it.

Respect earns respect from me.

--------------------------------

I read the comments of many woman on this site I would consider strong. They state and defend their opinions without ever calling on anyone else to defend them or canvas for support. You insult them with that foolish claim. Browndog has it right. You are just a bitch and a weak one at that. I don't see much in the way of respect for you here either.; 2/21/13, 6:52 AM
Deirdre Mundy said...: Children mean constantly doing things you don't want to do--

Getting up to investigate that mysterious cough at 3am

Soccer Games

Organizing birthday parties

laundry. dishes.

cleaning up vomit.

breaking up fights.

Reading Good Night Moon.

There are a lot of good parts too, of course, but the kids are a huge lesson in not being selfish.

The people who devote themselves to their 'causes' and like 'other people's children' are often (not always, but often) profoundly selfish--they only do things that make them feel good about themselves. Things they enjoy. They seek pleasure and avoid suffering. They're nothing but hedonists.

They're missing a big chunk of the human experience. They're letting themselves live like animals.; 2/21/13, 8:03 AM
Jane the Actuary said...: Fun population-related article in the Chicago Tribune this morning (sorry, no link): Iran, which had encouraged large families in the aftermath of the Revoluation, then got spooked by the consequences, are back at it again, with a goal to increase their population from 75 million to 150 - 200 million in order to become a "Great Nation." Ordinary Iranians are having none of it.; 2/21/13, 8:39 AM
Nichevo said...: Revenant, not sure what you mean, but Passion Plays historically have been a great way to start up pogroms.; 2/21/13, 8:54 AM