January 22, 2013
Things I would only be willing to do only if I had gone deaf.
Go out on one of those boats that take you to look at dolphins or whales. Seriously, the human vocalizations on this video of people getting a look at a "super-pod" of dolphins — "a rare dolphin stampede" — are simply horrifying to me. Even if I were deaf, I would resist this activity, because I don't enjoy intruding on animals, but maybe if you paid me, I'd go along. But I'd rather listen to fingernails on a blackboard than hear human adults squeal over the dolphins and shout inane things like "They're coming over to us" and "I can't believe it."
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96 comments:
What part about "they're coming over to us" is intruding?
I suppose man has no right to the sea.
I guess you don't want to do this either:
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I've done two similar things. Once a guy in a catamaran took a group of about eight, including me, sailing in the Pacific, and we encountered a group of small dolphins. The guy strung a rope off the back, and we took turns with snorkels and masks while he sailed along in the group. I'm no dolphin expert, but these animals seemed to be enjoying the encounter, and I surely did as well.
Another time, I went out at night into a group of manta rays. They did big vertical loops, feeding on the plankton (?) that the boat's lights attracted, while we snorkeled around them. These ten-foot-wide rays came within inches of me as they looped around. They didn't seem distressed, either.
On both occasions, I probably said things like "wow" and "look at that".
I found my self cringing watching that. What did the guy whistling loudly think he was doing?
I suppose I intrude on wildlife frequently, especially out west in the Rockies. I do however try to be quiet and unnoticed if possible (almost impossible however). If you are in wild country more wildlife sees you than you ever see back.
Simple reason is fair play. I'd not appreciate a sizable band of caterwauling grizzly bears invading my camp, or cabin. I give all wildlife wide deference and distance when in their habitats....God gave me binoculars for getting up close.
If I stumble in too close I strive to be non-threatening, or look or smell like food, and get the hell out of wherever alive. A moose is just a dangerous as a cougar or bear, and faster too. Basic rule for me is to give all life around me, animal & human, respect and hope it is reciprocated.
It's a good thing that Nick and Jay never saw such off East Egg. Fitsgerald would never have found the right words for it.
Maybe something about grey mammals gone crazy in a lust of feeding their appetites without guilt as the light dimmed.
Rare is the enthusiasm contest that cannot be won with a full-throated, repetitious string of "fuck, yeah!"
I have to say The Blonde and I were rather awed when we saw a small pod of dolphins rolling past us in FL one time, but, to see a manta ray whose wingspan (?) was almost the length of our catamaran, go right under us elicited not a sound.
PS I think a lot of those people never saw anything like that before.
Mitchell the Bat said...
"fuck, yeah!"
Not my style. I try not to announce my presence.
However "Oh, fuck ...fuck, fuck FUCK!" has escaped my lips on an occasion when I was entirely way too close to a large male Grizzly Bear. Happened with a moose once, too, but limited that to just one repetitive "fuck" after the first one. You KNOW you are too close to a big moose when he or she looks at you and starts heading for you.
Rutting bull elk or bison can be that way, too, even just looking past you at the cow you've foolishly (blindingly stupidly) gotten between him and her. I saw one big bison chase a guy back in to his RV and then bash the shit out of the sides of it before resuming his pursuit of the lady of the moment. I was laughing too hard (and hiding in a bush) to get a good photo.
"Fitsgerald would never have found the right words for it."
Betamax would.
Dolphins would often escort our ship in and out the 32nd St Naval Base in San Diego, back in my Navy days. We did like watching them, but being manly men, we never went squeeeee!!!
"What part about "they're coming over to us" is intruding?"
An extremely annoying man expressing aloud his inane belief that the dolphins like him and desire to be close to him.
A world without dolphins would be porpoiseless.
A boat full of shouting humans is good for all intensive porpoises.
"... these animals seemed to be enjoying the encounter..."
This is what I don't want to have to hear: Humans expressing subjective interpretations of how animals feel. It's like having to watch acts of bestiality.
Leave the animals alone.
If I thought the experience would be transcendent, I would have to avoid it precisely because of the people who vocalize so inanely.
I especially loathe the belief that the animals love you.
Save that for your pets.
And even that, please control.
It might have to do with a need to suppress traces of a vestige instinct that might be left over from when that squealing had more to do with hunting and fishing them... yea we are going to eat... oh wait... we are not going to eat those.
I dont know.. but I do understand what you mean.. there is something jarring about it.
This discussion reminds me of why "Grizzly Man" is such a great movie.
The porpoises don't seem all that put out about it. They're a lot faster than the boat, and they don't need to stay there. They're just there for the food.
They often like to play in the bow wave from boats like that, and they rarely show evidence of fear about people, and often express curiosity (I think we're pretty curious too).
In a perfect world, we could all go out on our own boats and experience whales and dolphins on or own or in smaller groups, but boats are expensive pain-in-the-necks (I have one), so it makes perfect sense for people to pay to go whale and dolphin watching.
In short; I don't see the problem.
Wow! Someone got up on the wrong side of the dog house this morning!
"Humans expressing subjective interpretations of how animals feel. It's like having to watch acts of bestiality."
One of these days, Alice...
People get weird watching dolphins. Its like they're on a dolphin drunk.
Folks get excited watching fireworks too. I once had an idea for combining the excitement of dolphins and fireworks. What we did is we strapped large, water resistant air bursts to some dolphins and we had a radio switch. But when that first dolphin leapt out of the water and the big pyroshot went kablaamo nobody in the crowd made a sound. It was just dead silence for like ten minutes. Anyway, long story short, it didn't work out and we had to close the show and...uh....move.
"In short; I don't see the problem."
Which is the problem, of course, that you don't see the thing that is relevant: What it's like to be the dolphin. You are looking at evidence, or lack of evidence, and putting that through your human mind and talking about how it seems to you. What I find so annoying is this quality in human beings, to see what they like to see. The people who go out on a boat to look at dolphins are especially likely to think in self-serving terms, that the dolphins are happy to see them.
Are they smiling?
Professor, I can understand that you find the anthropomorphizing and self-centering impulses distasteful.
But you carry it too far. It is possible to observe emotions, including anger, joy, fear, and interest, in animals. Most of us aren't that good at it, but it's not impossible.
Dolphins are widely regarded as curious, intelligent, and generally affable creatures. Their smiles probably influence that.
Why hate so much the human desire to reach out and understand the animal? Sure, there's a lot of projection going on, but at least the humans appreciate what they see. Better that than what might otherwise occur.
Professor, I can understand that you find the anthropomorphizing and self-centering impulses distasteful.
But you carry it too far. It is possible to observe emotions, including anger, joy, fear, and interest, in animals. Most of us aren't that good at it, but it's not impossible.
Dolphins are widely regarded as curious, intelligent, and generally affable creatures. Their smiles probably influence that.
Why hate so much the human desire to reach out and understand the animal? Sure, there's a lot of projection going on, but at least the humans appreciate what they see. Better that than what might otherwise occur.
My enthusiasm for fireworks waned when I realized their cost. Let's say, $50,000.00 for good solid 45 minute show, is that so much?
pow $2,000.00, kapow $1,500.00 zipzipzip pow pow pow $3,000.00 kapow $1,500.00 pop $500.00 blam $1,500.00
But my reaction to awe and spellbound wonder is to clam up. I know that from roller coasters and flying fish.
As to the flying fish, they were fine down there until our boat came along, what a racket, that got them jumping.
The people who go out on a boat to look at dolphins are especially likely to think in self-serving terms
If I ever had an inclination for this kind of behavior, it was over the first time a wild animal sized me up as breakfast.
Opps. Sorry for the double-post. I was trying to edit in order to say this:
"In short; I don't see the problem."
Which is the problem, of course, that you don't see the thing that is relevant: What it's like to be the dolphin.
That's what you find relevant. It's not the only relevant thing to see. I like to see a beautiful dolphin doing what comes naturally to it.
Sometimes I suspect the dolphins are smiling at the silly people (much the the labs do), but most of the time they're just pursuing their own interests, which is mostly food.
I get that you don't like the people getting excited by it all, and shouting shrilly, and probably vulgarly. I don't recommend whale watching, offshore bird watching, or fishing off head boats for you. But renting a boat for a small group is pretty expensive.
One time I was out fishing in the Chesapeake alone, just drifting along with the motor off, and a sea turtle popped up a few feet from the boat and watched me for a minute or so before swimming off. A rare and treasured moment. But unless you go out, it can't happen.
I was once in a luxury box at a Giants Game and Larry Csonka caught his pinkie in the cheese dispenser machine for the nachos.
Talk about your Dolphins squealing!
Ann Althouse said...
What part about "they're coming over to us" is intruding?
An extremely annoying man expressing aloud his inane belief that the dolphins like him and desire to be close to him.
I think you're reading way too much into it.
I think he was just delighted he would get a good look. We saw some whales migrating off in the distance on a snorkeling trip at Puerto Vallarta and I wish I'd gotten a better look.
PS Anthropomorphizing is part of human nature. Unless you want ethnic cleansing on a global scale, you're going to have live with this one.
I think John Boy & Billy covered this topic this morning => If dolphins are so smart, why are they always getting caught in fish nets?
We've been whale watching a couple times out here and never been treated to something like that. We stopped going, actually. It's expensive. Sometimes we can walk out on the jetty and see porpoises.
On the other hand, we once were treated to a school (flock?) of flying fish on a boat trip to Catalina. Completely unexpected and spontaneous, it was similar to this video, though of course not in slow motion: link
It's like having to watch acts of bestiality.
Yeah, because that was just like watching some guy stick his willie in a poodle.
This crowd is one place natural selection has worked its will.
1) They are Whale Watchers, which mans they want the illusion that they are saving the animals, and
2) They are from Southern California where silliness is rewarded and adult behavior in public is seldom seen, and
3)the boy-men all wear shorts.
Funny; I grew up in SoCal, and never wore shorts 'til I moved to Florida.
Fritz...Did you mean you wore no pants at all? It's Southern California, Jake.
Annoying animals usually doesn't end well for humans.
You intrude on Zeus, that poor defenseless creature. Out on Lake Mendota he goes. It's a regular Simon Legree Little Eva scenario.
Know what would be hysterical? A packed theater showing of "My Dinner With Andre" with audience comments like that:
"Whoa dude!...I can't believe he just said that"
"Can you believe it?"
A voice over narration telling us what the dialog "meant" would be an added touch.
Speaking of the deafness and also lip-synching, has anyone ever toyed with making a bad lip reading video of "My Dinner With Andre"?
Signed,
SoCal Whale Watcher :)
Ann Althouse said...
This discussion reminds me of why "Grizzly Man" is such a great movie.
Why? I'm told by reviewers and those that have seen it that it portrays Treadwell in a dishonest manner. Almost as a fool. People with far more experience with bears than Treadwell said he was no fool...and were negative about the movie.
Treadwell was no fool, he really did have a talent for communication with animals, however rudimentary it might be. But he let his self confidence get the best of him. He forgot it wasn't about him, but about the bears....and which bears.
Where he camped and died was in the presence of bears he did not yet know. Big mistake. They were hungry. They were down by a lakeside. It was their turf. He got dead. He saw them, he knew they were new bears, and he made a presumption. And that got him and his girlfriend dead.
I understand it (I think?) only because I've caught myself presuming the illogical at times in the wilderness. I've caught myself overconfident. I survived, Treadwell did not. It happens.
That's why the dolphins rape...to get the boatload of honkies to STFU
"Honkies" is particularly appropriate here, donchathink? Being a noise and an ethnicity, simultaneously.
"You intrude on Zeus, that poor defenseless creature. Out on Lake Mendota he goes. It's a regular Simon Legree Little Eva scenario."
Yes, that's my point. People project human feelings onto the dog. He's running around barefoot on the ice, and he's perfectly fine. The "Brrr poor doggie" stuff is... well, I take it you are essentially playing, pretending, living a fantasy life that tickles you. But it's not real, and it's annoying to those who find that sort of thing annoying.
I find those people on the boat extremely annoying. They may be simply playing and indulging in fantasy and not be as idiotic as they sound to me. I hope that is so.
I once went humpback whale watching off of Maui. Nothing quite as dramatic as hundreds of dolphins. But, we were on a 65' trimarran. At one point a whale about as long as the boat briefly surfaced beside us. Seeing the actual size of a great whale was awe inspiring. Realizing it could have easily sunk our boat and me with it made me feel rather helpless in a ocean with such creatures.
But, I'd visit them every day if I could.
Chip Ahoy wrote (in something I had to partially censor):
"The dogs are happy to see us. And they're happy to fetch too. We bred them for that, for centuries, you silly girl. The wild ones, not so much. And those early wild dogs did come to us. Even you can see that. Hunter/scavengers always scavenging, sniffing around at the edges of fires. Wolves! Toss them something. Come in closer. Grab a pup. Voop Now you're Borg. But this post is about the insane noises people make when they see in abundance what they went out for. It is a cacophony of animal sounds. The deaf among them would be making such sounds too but coarser and less modulated."
Whether the domesticated dogs are "happy" is questionable. "Happy" is a word that relates to human beings and we project that onto the animals.
The dog is perhaps programmed to fetch because of the way it is tied to getting its needs met. It is doing what happens instinctively as its way to get food and other survival-related things.
Looking happy to humans is a way to be kept fed.
"Ahhhh! It's a pack of sharks!"
"No, they're dolphins."
"So say you! They're coming this way! Look out!"
"They're dolphins."
"Omigod, sharks! Get a gun, get a gun!"
That would change the experience.
We share a number of traits with dogs, based on our common mammality. Dogs don't just experience happiness, but joy of the endless now.
Ann Althouse said ...
I find those people on the boat extremely annoying. They may be simply playing and indulging in fantasy and not be as idiotic as they sound ...
That's where we agree....as I said earlier, the video made me cringe. Whenever I come upon something new or astounding my reaction is silence...the better to watch and hear what I'm seeing.
When intrusive babble noise at a roadside site irritates me in a National Park, I have to remind my self that I am not alone in the park and that I don't own it, we do.
When off piste so to speak, on back trails and some moron comes along bellowing ...I'm more inclined to suggest he/she/they STFU. Back trails are in wildlife country, not people country, and you'll never see anything in a noise riot. But you may BE seen and attacked if you sound hostile to a predator mother.
Althouse, you freshwater bigot. They love it. They come almost every time a boat of any size goes through the ocean here. They ride the pressure wave, just like surfers and they even surf in waves at shore. After seeing it many many times, it takes some mental gymnastics, that I'm not capable of, to come up with a reason they would do it other than pure enjoyment. They clearly love riding the waves and being with the boats. We bring the boats. Therefore, they love us. Think about why you love Meade. It's pretty much the same thing.
I would suggest that it's reverse athropomorphism to assume that only humans can enjoy such play and appreciate another species.
Sads. She only loves me for my boats.
I bet the dolphins love the squealing of the humans too. I know dogs do. These dolphins are not entirely wild since they interact with people and boats every day. This is something they probably look forward to like your dog does to a walk.
"Things I would only be willing to do only if I had gone deaf."
Go to an inaugural parade. I'd rather listen to fingernails on a blackboard than hear human adults squeal over the Obamas and shout inane things like "They're coming over to us" and "I can't believe it."
"After seeing it many many times, it takes some mental gymnastics, that I'm not capable of, to come up with a reason they would do it other than pure enjoyment."
What if your life depended on coming up with an alternative hypothesis? Could you do it? I could.
Whether domesticated dogs are "happy" is questionable? Balderdash! Tommyrot! Whether Nancy Pelosi should be drawn and quartered is questionable. That dogs experience and express happiness is not. My advice: check for carbon monoxide poisoning, because you're not thinking clearly.
Huh? This was a group on the sea viewing a rare, huge and spectacular formation of marine mammals.
Have you ever listened to Althouse when she's video taping a dog?
Meade said...
Sads. She only loves me for my boats.
I strongly recommend you two go canoeing on the Wisconsin River: Sauk City to Spring Green. Have a Culvers lunch first, spend several hours watching eagles, taking pictures and imagining you're missionaries or just enjoying missionary on the sand banks. Top it off with cocktails at the Spring Green Restaurant.
The boats come with life preservers in case you fall in.
Ann Althouse said...
"... these animals seemed to be enjoying the encounter..."
This is what I don't want to have to hear: Humans expressing subjective interpretations of how animals feel.
We are animals, and we share 90% of our DNA and our evolutionary history (including the evolution of emotions; see The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals by Charles Darwin) with other mammals. The null hypothesis should be that our emotions are very similar to those of animals. If you want to claim that they are different, you need to provide evidence.
"Have you ever listened to Althouse when she's video taping a dog?"
I know. Right? Bad enough it annoys me, but you should ask the dogs how THEY feel about it.
"canoeing on the Wisconsin River"
Sounds like fun. Do the canoes have wifi?
"What if your life depended on coming up with an alternative hypothesis? Could you do it? I could"
An alternative, sure. A more likely answer? Nope. So what's yours? Tell me why other intelligent animals like dogs, cats, horses and humans love to play with other species, but dolphins are different.
Bagoh20....I have no problem knowing dogs, and other mammals, experience happiness and "the joy of never ending now" as I think someone else put it. I've seen it too often, as you say, to not know it and without anthropomorphizing. We actually do have some expression in common with animals. Certainly my own pair of German shepherds share joy together regularly, and express it in body language, and "teh sad" too on occasion.
I got chewed up here a while ago for asserting animals are preferable to people in my world. And they f'ing well are. Wild or domestic. I can count people I trust on my fingers. There are far far more animals past and present like that.
Wow. The professor's feeling a bit misanthropic today. :-S
Sure, the group's antics were a bit inane, no doubt, but that's just some folks reacting with honest awe. Granted, they're doing so simplistically, and annoyingly, but still... some folks just go all gooey at animals.
I'm sympathetic to what the professor here is saying about the crowd - it's like they have no self control, awareness, and respect, and they sure as heck were annoying - but at the same time I find it difficult to be hard on them. They were just reacting happily. It almost feels too sour and Scrooge-y to really rip into the group for acting stupid when they were just having a lot of fun.
Sounds like fun. Do the canoes have wifi?
Dunno. Probably 5G though.
Meade said...
Sads. She only loves me for my boats.
She has dinghy fever.
Have you ever listened to Althouse when she's video taping a dog?
It's even worse when she video tapes protesting government employees. I believe one guy threatened her because of her noises.
Certainly my own pair of German shepherds share joy together regularly, and express it in body language, and "teh sad" too on occasion.
We have a German shepherd puppy at my house, 4-5 months old. It's facial expressions are hilarioius. Happy, sad, worried, done-something-wrong - I can't help but laugh at him almost all the time. Very smart dog, too.
Let me guess, these are the same people that vote for Obama.
Who pissed in Ann's cornflakes?
...that the dolphins are happy to see them.
Dolphins occasionally try to mate with divers. Is that your bottlenose or are you happy to see me?
I'm mad, and that's a fact!
I found out animals don't help!
Animal think they're pretty smart...
Shit on the ground, see in the dark!
...
Animals think they understand.
Trust in them? A big mistake!
Animals want to change my life!
I will ignore animals advice!
They're never there when you need them.
They never come when you call them.
They're never there when you need them.
They never come when you call them... down, down, down, down!
I know the animals are laughing at us!
They don't even know what a joke is!
I won't follow animal's advice!
I don't care if they're laughing at us!
Let me guess, these are the same people that vote for Obama.
Weren't they English?
prairie wind said...
You would miss seeing a pod of 65 dolphins cavorting nearby just because an excited man said something in a way that annoyed you? I guess you could probably watch the video on YouTube with the sound off.
Is that the pristine experience you are looking for?
1/22/13, 1:33 PM
"What if your life depended on coming up with an alternative hypothesis? Could you do it? I could."
Could you? What *exactly* was Michelle Obama responding to? You seem to be sure about that.
What a beautiful site to be lucky enough to witness. That there are others there expressing their own joy in being there, even imperfectly, to me, just adds to the experience.
Kit - you obviously have no standard for what should one be joyful about. It's all equal right?
I love this thread, it's about aesthetics. I wish I could just study philosophy for years surrounded by Greek architecture and singing angels.
Meade said...
"Have you ever listened to Althouse when she's video taping a dog?"
I know. Right? Bad enough it annoys me, but you should ask the dogs how THEY feel about it.
Never mind the dog, Meade is the one now treading on thin ice ;-)
The bride and I went on a whale-watching tour on a small boat on our honeymoon.
I saw not much more than the backs of my eyelids, and the only vocalizations I made were retching noises along with the occasional, "Oh, God, make it stop."
"Never mind the dog, Meade is the one now treading on thin ice ;-)"
Heh. If it were true though, that wouldn't be funny :-)
Aridog, isn't the standard for trusting an animal pretty low though? Basically, one trusts the animal not to bite, scratch, or in some other way injure him? If you compared people and animals on the same standard, I don't think animals would fare as well.
Go to The Googles, and type in: "killed by cow" or "killed by horse". Animals are dangerous.
"Aridog, isn't the standard for trusting an animal pretty low though? Basically, one trusts the animal not to bite, scratch, or in some other way injure him? If you compared people and animals on the same standard, I don't think animals would fare as well."
I have never had a dog hurt me in any way, despite being in contact with hundreds of them every year that have been abused, used for fighting, trained to attack, injured, etc. That's not even including the endless cases of dogs sacrificing their lives to save humans, or sitting at a rail station for years waiting for their best friend to return.
By humans ,on the other hand, I have been attacked with weapons, punched, robbed, burglarized, embezzled, lied about, forced to fight others for someone's thrills, and any number of purposeful emotional attacks designed specifically to hurt me, and none of these things has happened only once.
Based on interactions with me, there is no comparison, and humans are the only ones who supposedly know what they are doing is wrong.
Now I may love some individuals, but as a species, I wouldn't want to be defense council.
Now to make it fair, you should only compare things that both species are actually capable of doing. We can't compare curing polio, or sniffing out explosives.
So then you pretty much have, loyalty, physical abuse and attack, reliability, trust, courage, and companionship.
Yea, humans are in deep trouble here.
Although, it is a little easier to get most dogs into my bed than humans. I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but OK, let accept that dogs are sluts.
"What if your life depended on coming up with an alternative hypothesis? Could you do it? I could."
Well? Let's hear it. I know what your thinking, but it can't involve Aquaman, because he can't be in all these places at the same time.
So then you pretty much have, loyalty, physical abuse and attack, reliability, trust, courage, and companionship.
You forgot fear. Like man, animals fear. Fear for their lives...
Botswana had lost lost all of it's rhino population and had begun a program to reintroduce the species. I was helping to track four rhinos brought in from South Africa in an attempt to reestablish a population. They did not have GPS to track them, but as it turns out rhinos are not hard to track if you know where to look. Turns out rhinos defecate only in one place, like a house cat in a litterbox, they go in a single spot, which helps them establish their territory. So, we snuck over to where we knew they were marking, and as we emerged from the bushes we were shocked to see a male lion on top of this huge pile of dung. He appeared to be eating the pile of dung. Couldn't get enough of it. I turned to my guide to ask why a lion would do such a thing. Just then the lion lifted his head and tuned toward us. He had heard me..
The lion spoke: "I just ate a lawyer and I'm trying to get the bad taste out of my mouth!" he shouted...
So there's that, too- lions also hate attorneys..
Anecdotally, I've known attorneys who are some of the kindest, most ethical, and moral people I've ever met. And I've been attacked and had my flesh ripped by three different dogs on three separate occasions over a time span of 50 years. I still (cautiously) give most dogs the benefit of doubt and give most attorneys... their personal space.
I fear I may have offended. As penence, my next Amazon purchase through the Althouse portal.
rehajm, if you mean us, you are very much mistaken. It is nearly impossible to offend either of us.
Unless you fail to get the portal link right. :-)
"I wish I could just study philosophy for years surrounded by Greek architecture and singing angels."
That's what happens in the afterlife. There's about 1,000 years of that or so.
Freeman Hunt said...
Aridog, isn't the standard for trusting an animal pretty low though?
No, they score higher than humans on average. In most cases in the wild they try to avoid you not screw with you. You trust the animal you are dealing with to behave up to their propensity if things go wrong. Tim Treadwell could lecture on that if still alive.
Basically, one trusts the animal not to bite, scratch, or in some other way injure him? If you compared people and animals on the same standard, I don't think animals would fare as well.
When in hell do you live? People safer than animals? Not in my big city. No animal has ever shot at me either and no dog has tried to kill me from ambush. Can't say that about people.
Bagoh20 has already said most of it. I'll only add that under certain circumstances you can expect, you can "trust" that a dog will bite. My dog "Ari" will bite because he has been trained how to bite correctly, when to do so, and when not to do so. Usually he will releaser on command. Sometime not so much...for him its a bug, not a feature. In teaching that you occasionally get bitten. That was a pretty minor one when I screwed up handling a jute bite tube a while back. "Ari" a re-grip when I let the tube slip...my fault, not his.
AllenS...surely you jest about cows, who kill on average annually about 20 people. That's just a slow weekend in Chicago. :-))
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