Why do you think Tiger Woods lives in Florida?
In November, voters in California approved a ballot measure raising the top rate on income over $1 million to 13.3% (the increase applies retroactively to last year). ... Mr. Woods grossed $56.4 million in 2012. As a Floridian, he will keep about $7.5 million that he otherwise would have owed to the state of California. His net tax savings over his 16-year career come to about $100 million. Mr. Mickelson last year earned $60.7 million. Paying the 13.3% California rate, he will owe the state $8 million.That takes Mickelson down to $52.7 million, putting him behind Woods, when he was ahead of him on the money list. Aggravating! (I know, I'm failing to take account of the way state taxes are a deduction on your federal income taxes and everything else that affects after-tax income.)
The benefit of living in a state without an income tax can be diminished by the "jock tax" that states impose on money earned by athletes when they're playing or training in the state. (Luckily for baseball players, spring training is in no-tax Florida or low-tax Arizona.) But in sports like tennis and golf where athletes can train anywhere in the world, a preponderance happen to migrate to states without an income tax.These celebs — with their endorsements — need good PR, as the Mickelson slip proved. State tax proponents could get proactive and actively shame the sports stars who live in Florida without an adequate cover story.
For instance, Serena and Venus Williams grew up in Compton, Calif., but moved with their father to Florida in the early 1990s.
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198 comments:
Maybe they moved away from Compton so they didn't get killed for being black.
Sorry, that's a bit OT.
It's the same reason VT and NH went so Lefty. All those "concerned, empathetic Liberals" finally were honest with themselves and realized the old saw, "there's no such thing as a poor white Liberal" isn't any more racist than they are.
MN's rocket scientist of a governor is pushing a sales tax on services. Attorneys in western WI are salivating. The geniuses in MN don't seem to think that people will respond to incentives.
Only counter-revolutionaries support low taxes.
State tax proponents could get proactive and actively shame the sports stars who live in Florida without an adequate cover story.
I very much doubt this. People who would buy into shaming a sports star aren't people that anyone else cares about.
What I don't understand: From somewhere I got the impression that athletes in leagues paid income tax on where they earned the money: i.e. if they played 50 percent of their games in NYC they paid NY and NYC taxes on 50 percent of their income, meanwhile paying prorata shares on the games in CA, etc. If that's true, then why isn't the same true for golfers?
Yes, indeed, we should all be shamed for not moving to a high tax atate no matter where we were born. Who are we to keep our own money?
I still don't understand why Mickelson felt he had to walk back his comments. He should just tell the Californians to go screw themselves if they don't like hearing the truth.
Not sure the shaming strategy would work.
1.) The residents of only one state are likely to take offense, off-set by the residents of the new state.
2.) In team sports, where the shaming strategy is most likely to work, there is little advantage for a athlete to take up residence outside the home-town state anyway.
In Response to Bill Hershaw:
There are only a few cities/states that tax you when you work there. I know New York City is one of them, in that when I work there I have to file taxes in NYC, even if I only work there 1 day. It is not a state tax only the city taxes me. I believe that Philly aslo has this type of system. DC proposes this type of "commuter tax" every few years, but it gets shot down.
If that's true, then why isn't the same true for golfers?
It is true for golfers, too. However, most of Mickelson's and Woods' income is derived form endorsements, not from prize money or appearance fees earned in different states, or nations.
Althouse, doesn't your Golfing nephew reside in Florida?
I don't see how anyone can blame him if he does. Why should anyone NOT take steps to miminize the taxes they pay? It's folly not to. If someone were to tell me to pay more taxes, I would straight up ask them for their complete tax returns for the past 10 years.
MYOB are wonderful acronyms. It's too bad we don't have Dear Abby around any more to say it more often.
I've read similar things, Bill. From what I understand, when a pro athletes travel to another state, they have to pay income taxes to that state. Where it gets complicated is determining what percentage of their income gets taxed. For example, the NFL regular season is 16 games with half being at home. For those 8 road games, they'd have to pay taxes to the host state. However, does one game represent 16th of their income? Does the preseason count? What about spring training? I'm sure they've worked all of this out but I honestly don't know the specifics.
I'm sure golf and tennis operate the same way, with the added complication of many tournaments being overseas. They may have more control over which tournaments they play in but I imagine their taxes get real complicated. Consider that 19 year old woman who beat Serina Williams last week at the Australian Open quarter finals (wife is a big tennis fan). I read she got a $500,000 (AUS or US?) paycheck. How much of that does she have to pay to Australia, how much to the US and, depending on where she lives, to her home state? While that's a problem I'd like to have, I don't envy her accounting team trying to make sense of so many sets of tax laws.
All this "shaming" of fat people, smokers, people who move due to state taxes, gun-owners, etc. by progs will at some point piss off everyone who isn't a prog. Many of these non-progs vote Democrat and are not conservatives or Republicans.
Um, minor point. Tiger was above Phil on the money list last year. The amounts you include are from non-tour earnings (endorsements, golf course design, etc).
Not much different from the route that European athletes have been travelling for decades: move to Monaco. Caroline Wozniacki, Ana Ivanovic, Novak Djokovic, Bjorn Borg, et al all reside there.
If that's true, then why isn't the same true for golfers?
Ancillary endorsement and investment income? Home state tax treatment of out of state earnings/taxes?
I still don't understand why Mickelson felt he had to walk back his comments.
Alinsky. Public figure seeking endorsement deals don't want to comment on politics, espcially if it's right-of-center. Celebrities vet their public causes with their publicists first.
If you win a tournament in FL, but you reside in CA, you don't owe FL income taxes (because they have none), but you still owe CA income taxes. Generally, the tax structure of the state wherein you reside apply to all income, but income taxes paid to other states are tax credits.
U.S. currency once was worth more than Canadian. Canadian taxes were also higher.
While not the only factor, it played a key role in a number of Canadian NHL teams moving to the U.S. Canadian teams had two-strikes against them with regard to player contracts. It also put Canadian NBA and MLB teams at a financial disadvantage -- it was a major factor in free agency.
For superstars, the key is endorsement income. If you play for the Yankees, at least half of your baseball income will be subject to state income tax. If you choose to live in Florida during the offseason (for at least half the year), you can shelter your endorsement income from Albany.
Derek Jeter had this exact experience.
@MadMan, well stated.
What would any sane person do? If someone says they are going to take 13% of your income and burn it just because you voluntarily live inside an imaginary line, and they will continue to do it every year with the inevitable result of needing even more in the future, are you gonna say: "Sounds like a good plan."?
Global warming models show golf courses will soon beunder water in low level Florida, so California's Cap and Trade taxes are needed to save Florida.
So Californians must really be mad that their left handed golfer spoke the truth in public. That betrayed their sci-fi end of the earth religion.
Mickelson is being shamed to hide the fact that the California plan to avoid the copybook headings has led to a mass exodus of businesses, the rich, and the not-so-rich.
Pointing out the obvious is simply rude.
What the average prog does not get is that people with means have the means to move.
As a result, they confuse their words and think that people with means are mean because they have the means to move.
63%? Mickelson is undertaxed 12% by French standards. Why he oughta get down on his hands and knees and THANK the inside the beltway goniffs in Washington and Sacramento for their leniency.
In short, Mickelson committed heresy.
And so he must acknowledge his sin to be let back in the fold.
Yes, everyone knows lots of high income earners want to leave states with high incomes and, in fact, many do.
Yet this knowledge has no effect whatsoever.
The liberal Democrats' appetite to cannibalize the economy with punitive taxes is insatiable, and immune to logic and self-interest - just like Obama's stated position on increasing capital gains taxes even though doing so would be economically stupid, but his (and his voters) sense of fairness required it.
Fools.
Nothing more than fools.
So, as a digression: The taxes are being raised, but the real question is whether it will truly produce additional revenue. Or will it simply drive those earners out of the state, along with the athletes?
It's not too hard a question to answer, especially given what we're seeing now. And have seen in the past.
Entrepreneurs and businessmen are fleeing California. Despite the huge in-migration trends, the state's population remains fairly stable because of the influx of Hispanic immigrants. What happens when the Golden Goose stops laying eggs and the state is left a broke Third World mess?
In short, Mickelson committed honesty.
FTFY
Blue-state revenooers (France, IL and CA being most prominent) are apparently unaware and subsequently surprised that human capital is mobile.
Expect to see extortionate exit-tax proposals floated.
When your reaction to onerous taxes is good pr, you've lost the plot to the novel.
It is most interesting that he can be shamed, and is getting bad PR, for not wanting to pay 60-60% of his income in taxes.
When did this become shameful or bad PR? Answer, a long time ago. This is not the country it once was.
At 20% of his whole income he'd be paying way more than his family's fair share. How much more gov't do they use than the average schlub? Maybe less, if they send their kids to private school, etc.
It should be just ordinary to say that you don't want the gov't to take 65% of your income and give it to other people. It's not, and that tells you alot of bad things about the country now. It's a different country than the once great one it once was.
s/be 60-65%
In short, Mickelson committed heresy.
Nobody gives a shit about pampered millionaire athlete prima donnas. And "athlete" is a stretch in Phil "Man Boobs" Mickelson's case.
Linked by Drudge, who I believe lives in Florida.
‘Wall St.’ flees NY for tax-free Fla.
The city’s hedge-fund executives are flying south — and it’s not for vacation.
An increasing number of financial firms, especially private equity and hedge funds, are fed up with New York’s sky-high city and state tax rates and are relocating to the business-friendly climate in Florida’s Palm Beach County.
"63%? Mickelson is undertaxed 12% by French standards. "
But in France, at least he gets something for it. California wastes nearly all it's tax revenue. The infrastructure is a mess, and when things get tough, the first things they cut are the things people enjoy and need. Public employees' pay and benefits are sucking everything dry. My state is limping, and terminally ill, and it believes in the equivalent of new age medicine to cure it.
I have no option but to get out, I'm just struggling to figure out how to do it without hurting anyone who needs me.
"Althouse, doesn't your Golfing nephew reside in Florida?"
He grew up in Florida.
Didn't there used to be something called the "race to laxity?"
Came in handy to justify comprehensive federal environmental regulation.
Might work here.
It'll probably need to be re-worded a bit.
I'm really curious to see how bad things have to get before the silly people of California wise up. Due to the demographics, and how they are shifting, I think it will get very ugly first. A lot of people refuse to blame the appropriate mechanism and people for the problems. That's true everywhere, but that mindset is the vast majority here. An overwhelming majority in a one party state. The perfect storm.
@garage mahal said...
"Nobody gives a shit about pampered millionaire athlete prima donnas."
In reality, Democrats don't give a shit about non-millionaires either.
You know who else should be shamed? All those Massholes who drive to NH for sales-tax-free shopping and cheap booze.
Illinois suffers credit downgrade to worst in the nation despite hiking taxes 67% on personal income and 45% on corporate.
Unexpectedly!
"Nobody gives a shit about pampered millionaire athlete prima donnas."
Of course not, but they desperately need his money, and the jobs provided by people in his tax bracket. It's just stupid to believe this doesn't matter when the overwhelming share of your tax revenue comes from people like that.
You are right, Garage, no one does give a shit about pampered millionaires like Mickelson. The left, however, wants to grab as much of his money as possible, for the government. By trying to grab too much of it, they've denied themselves just about all of what they were trying to get.
Let's hear it for the blue model.
At least Garage is open and honest in his contempt for makers.
California: 'Shut up and give us your money, you pampered man-boobed millionaires."
Of course not, but they desperately need his money...
Exactly how ungrateful children feel about their parents. Like the Menendez bros. with taxing authority.
Politicians have the mistaken ideas that:
They own us.
That they are entitled to our incomes and earnings.
That we have no ability to alter our behavior when they continue to impose draconian laws.
That their cherished projections of ownership and entitlement won't ever change.
They are always surprised when their best laid and not thought out plans gang aft agley. Yet they always double down on stupid and do more.
As I said yesterday in the Global Warming thread. People are not rooted like trees. They can MOVE. And those with means, especially, can and will move. Self preservation is not something to be criticized: it is to be applauded.
IL is the worst state in the Union, officially.
The WSJ reported Rahm may be dumping pre-medicare City of Chicago retirees into Obamacare to get out from under the City's obligations/promises.
LOLOLOL
A poster at ZeroHedge said a recent California patrolman retiree got a $400K payout from unused sick days & vacation days & his pension is about $200K/yr.
I'm sure it will be great for CA if they manage to chase away all of their successful people. Then, they'd be left only with those who care about each other, and wouldn't have to deal with those greedy rich bastards.
From the movie As Good As It Gets
SIMON BISHOP (Greg Kinnear): "And the morning that I left for college, he walked into my room, and he held out his hand, and it was filled with money.
A big, sweaty wad of money.
And he said, "I don't want you to ever come back." And I just grabbed him and I hugged him, and he turned and walked out."
MELVIN (Jack Nicholson): "Tomorrow you'll see if you can get another big wad of sweaty money out of his hand."
Jeez - this is nothing new. People have been fleeing Phildaelphia for years due to its wage tax and it shitty public schools.
garage mahal said...
In short, Mickelson committed heresy.
Nobody gives a shit about pampered millionaire athlete prima donnas. And "athlete" is a stretch in Phil "Man Boobs" Mickelson's case
Actually, nobody gives a shit about your silly, uninformed opinions.
And, you're fatter than Phil is.
The problem is that government gets more of Phil Mickelsons money than Phil Mickelson does.
And notice the effort to disparage Phils character for daring to criticise the regimes hand in his pocket.
That's how leftwing authoritarian societies handle dissenters.
And while the WSJ article is behind a wall, I only read part of it, Stockton CA to get out of bankruptcy is also trying to get out of those obligations.
See, Wisconsin, what suckers you are?
#2 in the country in pension funding, because you saved and scrimped and didn't spend like a drunken congressman seeking out underage Thai prostitutes for the children, and now you're gonna pick up the slack for all those irresponsible spendthrift blue staters, but who needs spending limits when they have the others to bail them out?
Mickelson's been on the tour for 20 years and has been a popular player for most of that time.
California has always had a pretty high income tax while he played and from 1993-2001, the federal income tax on most of his earnings was at 39.6%, where it is again.
Why is Mickelson bringing this up now? Woods moved to Florida right when he turned pro in 1996. Did Mickelson not know he was paying high taxes in the 1990s?
The family is catching up on Alcatraz. It was too costly to film in SF, so they're filming in Vancouver. LOLOLOL
At least Garage is open and honest in his contempt for makers.
Man Boobs gets paid millions of dollars for playing golf. Now he's off to live in a castle in Palm Beach. Why am I supposed to feel sorry for this guy again?
You know what's really rich?
A NYLibJew who owns an accounting firm, which I didn't know he owned at the time, telling me millionaires have to pay more.
He's an accountant. It's their job to minimize taxes.
Is he part of the problem or the solution?
Because other people will lose income or their jobs due to the shortsightedness of people like you.
Don't you care?
Actually, the story of athletes moving their permanent residences to Florida is an old story.
We've already heard a lot about the Florida residences of Michael Jordan (ex-Illinois), LeBron James (ex-Ohio), and Derek Jeter (ex-New York). All of these guys fight like hell to make certain of the details of their domiciles.
But what about non-athlete high-earners? WHERE IS BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN'S DOMICILE? WHERE IS MADONNA DOMICILED? WHERE IS TOMMY LEE JONES DOMICILED? WHERE IS, OR WAS, MICHAEL BLOOMBERG DOMICILED?
The common locale for all of the above is Wellington, Florida (Palm Beach County).
Why am I supposed to feel sorry for this guy again?
Nobody's feeling sorry for him, Garage, they're just saying that envious parasites like you aren't entitled to 2/3 of his income.
Mickleson does more to stimulate the economy when he tips his caddy than President Ladies' Tee does with $800B in porkulus.
Hey Garage,
According to Wikipedia (admittedly not the most reliable of references)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Mickelson
Mickelson is 6'3 and 200 lbs.
Let's do some math. 6'3 and 5'11, which is more?
220lbs and 200 lbs, which is more?
Math: The bane of libtards everywhere. Maybe those in fat houses should not throw "manboobs" insults.
You are right, Garage, no one does give a shit about pampered millionaires...
...except that in Cali "millionaires" applies to individuals making $250K/yr, because they'll have earned $1M in four years...
...according to Governor Kumon Math Center.
I don't have Man Boobs.
garage mahal said...
At least Garage is open and honest in his contempt for makers.
Man Boobs gets paid millions of dollars for playing golf. Now he's off to live in a castle in Palm Beach. Why am I supposed to feel sorry for this guy again?
You're not.
You're supposed to encourage the creation of more people like him so that they'll move to your low income tax state so they'll spend and invest in your low income tax state.
Rich people create jobs. You don't.
@Garage,
You are gettting to sound like Inga.
"Pampered, man boobed millionaires" is also an apt description of the Williams sisters, but Garage gives them a pass.....I wonder if the Williams sisters publicly spoke up against the unfair burden of heavy taxes, would they be celebrated as heroes the way Ali was when he resisted the draft or Curt Flood was for fighting the reserve clause. Probably not. They'd get a worse press than Ray Lewis or Michal Vick.
Rich people create jobs. You don't.
Ordinary people with money in their pocket are the real job creators.
I can't make up my mind on the issue until I hear from Uncle Warren........
BTW if anyone is planning a trip to China....China's Billionaire Heiress Can’t Find Boyfriend
the only thing Mickelson did wrong was to apologize.I think his tour peers are mostly on the same page as they are all independent contractors. I've always liked him- he is good to the fans, esp kids and he KNOWS that his good fortune is due to the fans.No entity should be able to take more than 25% of your labor- I'd be fine with a flat tax and very few to no deductions.
Ordinary people with money in their pocket are the real job creators.
Ordinary people with money in their pockets need stuff to buy. They can't buy anything if someone doesn't invest money to build a factory to make it. Investment must precede spending.
Well hell if you had grown up in Compton California, you would have moved out of there ASAP. In the 1940's and 50's Compton was a fairly white bread California suburb. It then became virtually all black (which is when Venus and Serena were born). It was a rough, tough town. The courthouse in Compton was referred to as "Fort Compton" by the local district attorneys who served there. Time has moved on, and now Latino gangs are taking over Compton---and driving the blacks out with threats and beatings.
If you had the brains of any oyster--and the financial wherewithal to do it--you'd move out of Compton.
Ordinary people with money in their pocket. So the people who work for Mickelson aren't ordinary?
They're all rich?
When the Obamacare tax increases really get going, guess who's gonna be hit hardest? Those ordinary people who still have jobs.
Now I'm imagining a black market in breast pumps being sold south of the border.
It's like the $600 toilet seat.
"Why is Mickelson bringing this up now?... Did Mickelson not know he was paying high taxes in the 1990s?"
I can explain this since, I lived here all that time too.
In the 90s' taxes were also high, but the place was decent and growing, with good infrastructure and an opposition party to keep things in check.
Now after taxing decades of high taxes, and indirectly raising the costs of everything, the state is completely broken. The thing most disparaging is that the very people who caused all this are more entrenched in power than ever and with no opposition at all. Jerry Brown is the damned Governor AGAIN!
It's the difference between supporting your 17 year old, and then later realizing he's 40, and you're re still supporting him.
Talk about things to buy, the December rail shipment chart was horrible, there's this Balkan Dry Goods report that people watch, too?
When will California be shamed in to cutting its excessive spending on pension benefits, etc. If I were these guys, I'd try to shame California into balancing its budget and getting spending under control.
Ordinary people with money in their pocket are the real job creators.
And just where do they GET that money in their pocket? Do they have a magical money tree in the back yard?
garage mahal said...
Ordinary people with money in their pocket are the real job creators.
You know absolutely nothing about economics.
Idiot.
EBT - every $ - 1.70 in spending.
It's working for Britain.....oh, wait....Drudge has another success story from there.
That’s great for Phil Mickelson that he’s moving, but ultimately it doesn’t matter. There aren’t enough high income taxpayers in California as it is, and the federal government is going to bail out the State of California sooner or later. We’re all going to be paying for Democrat mistakes on the Left Coast. T’was always thus.
Don't forget, Garage just goes out and makes more money. He told us so.
"Ordinary people with money in their pocket are the real job creators."
Then logically we just need to split all the money up.
"Oh no, I'm not a communist, and it's insulting for you to suggest it."
"For instance, Serena and Venus Williams grew up in Compton, Calif., but moved with their father to Florida in the early 1990s."
That's Racist
re: "Man boobs"
Mickelson recently revealed that he has had severe attacks of psoriatic arthritis.
He was treated with prednisone and Enbrel. Both can cause weight gain and, especially with steroids, gynecomastia (man boobs).
It's pretty low to mock someone for getting medication side effects, garage.
Garage: I don't have Man Boobs.
Prove it.
Queue IL & NY, they seem to have a common problem.....
garage mahal said...
I don't have Man Boobs
Now that is about the top of your intellectual capabilities.
...and the federal government is going to bail out the State of California sooner or later.
And Illinois and NJ and.....
Do they have a magical money tree in the back yard?
Doesn't everybody?
Anecdotal I know but......in November we took a trip to Nevada (Reno and surrounding areas). We hadn't been to the Virginia City area for a couple of years. While driving through the winding back roads we were stunned by the proliferation of GINORMOUS HUGE MANSIONS built and being built on the hillsides. I don't mean just big houses. We are talking an 8 car garage on the foundation and two or even three stories above the garage. 5000 square feet if they were an inch.
New golf course and gated communities in some places. The 'horse country' area between Reno and Carson City is now sporting huge spreads 40 to 80 acres, fenced in beautiful white or stone built fencing with Mediterranean style block built and stuccoed horse barns that have air- conditioned horse trailers parked along side. The caretaker's 'cottages' rival anything built in the Santa Barbara area for style and size. 2500 sq ft at least. We can tell they are the caretaker's or guest 'cottages' because the main houses are three to four times as large.
Where are all of these people and this construction coming from, we asked? California.
""Ordinary people with money in their pocket are the real job creators."
This is a perfect example of why smart talk is not gonna help the GOP. There are not many interested in hearing it, and the ones who are, already vote for them.
But DBQ, if a lefty drives through there they don't see the obvious lesson. They would ask why does Nevada let them get away with this?
This is a perfect example of why smart talk is not gonna help the GOP
If there are no buyers for your products or services you aren't hiring anybody, no matter how rich you are. There is this bizarre theory on the right that the wealthy in this country create jobs based on their tax rates. Or, how nice we are to them in comment section on the internet.
garage mahal said...
Rich people create jobs. You don't.
Ordinary people with money in their pocket are the real job creators.
Not unless there's something to spend it on. Before there was an Apple store, there was a Steve Jobs.
How many things or services have you created?
I guess because Phil is a native Californian he is reluctant to move from his home state though I think he has started the process.
Sure you don't Tubby.
I notice that you have no response to Pogo:
Pogo said...
re: "Man boobs"
Mickelson recently revealed that he has had severe attacks of psoriatic arthritis.
He was treated with prednisone and Enbrel. Both can cause weight gain and, especially with steroids, gynecomastia (man boobs).
It's pretty low to mock someone for getting medication side effects, garage.
Duly noted about how one sided the cries for civility are. I will remember this the next time you bleat about lines being crossed.
Duly noted about how one sided the cries for civility are.
Who is crying for civility? Not me.
Garage, you can look at any population in history who prospered, and you will not see a bunch of equal people collectively growing. It's always done by the exceptions, who have a little more of something that they then parlay into the power to employ people who yes, then of course create more jobs with their demand, but your idea of workers just building something from scratch is a fantasy. Even the Borg had a head bitch. Get over it.
As for tax rates, how do explain away that fact that the extra money I send this year to fund California's public pensions (people not working) will prevent me from hiring people who will build things and get off the welfare rolls?
Some employers will just move their operations off shore, because of taxes, but that has no effect on jobs here right?
The taxes that American employers pay are equivalent to a subsidy to their foreign competitors. Now if that money was wisely used, it would have some return to Americans, but when it's used to pay people for not working or reimburse investors with bad ideas, then it's just a multiplier effect on the negative side.
DADvocate said...
Yes, indeed, we should all be shamed for not moving to a high tax atate no matter where we were born. Who are we to keep our own money?
In your statement is the real reason for his problems,
He actually thinks that it is his money.
It's only by the good graces of government that he's allowed to keep any of it.
Garage: If there are no buyers for your products or services you aren't hiring anybody...
Nobody was buying Nanos, iPads or Touches when Applied hired the engineers to design them and the marketers to position them.
Bagoh: how do explain away that fact that the extra money I send this year to fund California's public pensions (people not working) will prevent me from hiring people
Garage: "Nobody gives a shit about pampered millionaire business-owner prima donnas. Ordinary people with money in their pocket are the real job creators."
Much of the market that I work in didn't even exist until we created it. Not some collective of workers. A couple guys with a dream, some ideas, and one guy with a small trust fund from his father's success. Since those days, hundred of direct employees and thousands of indirect ones have been "created".
So how do you get such a common and well-known mechanism backward?
Why am I supposed to feel sorry for this guy again?
Missing the point are we?
Phil Mickelson has earned his income. You may cry "foul" because he's just a golfer and not a noble bricklayer, but guess what? The market doesn't care. It pays what is demanded ... nothing more, nothing less.
I don't feel sorry for Mickelson.
Class envy reflects poorly on those who practice it.
Retroactive application of the law is an especially unjust feature.
Garbage is a pigmy. I'm a pigmy too. Difference being that I appreciate giants and Mickelson is a giant in his field. He started off with no more talent than ten thousand other guys and yet today he ranks in the top ten players worldwide while the ten thousand others are still duffers, like me. How'd he do it? Incredible persistence at mastering a task which can't ever totally be mastered and therefore must be practiced practiced practiced at for a lifetime. It's like the pianist at Carnegie Hall who ain't garbage and ain't me, he's at Carnegie Hall because of incredible monumental persistence added to a touch of talent. I appreciate that. garbage isn't CAPABLE of appreciating it, the poor deprived schmuck.
One good schoolteacher is worth a thousand Phil Mickelsons.
One good schoolteacher is worth a thousand Phil Mickelsons.
You sound like you think they are mutually exclusive, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. And how would school teachers get paid without those who create wealth?
"One good schoolteacher is worth a thousand Phil Mickelsons."
Well, that's only because one good schoolteacher is rarer than a thousand Phil Mickelsons.
garage mahal said...
One good schoolteacher is worth a thousand Phil Mickelsons.
and when he leaves due to high taxes they'll lose one hundred teachers worth of revenue or in garage math, one hundred thousand Phil Mickelsons.
One good schoolteacher is worth a thousand Phil Mickelsons.
No one here has argued the opposite.
"No one here has argued the opposite."
I do.
'Worth' to whom?
And by what measure?
Because in dollars, Mickelson is worth many thousand more than even the best teacher. That's how markets work. Even rigged ones like that for public schoolteachers.
"One good schoolteacher is worth a thousand Phil Mickelsons."
One good Mickelson supports a thousand schoolteachers, and, that's not just hyperbole.
Because in dollars, Mickelson is worth many thousand more than even the best teacher. That's how markets work. Even rigged ones like that for public schoolteachers.
I doubt Garage was speaking of economic worth.
He just wants to hate on Mickelson for being rich and "pampered."
I don't know about that either. A lot of the products of those teachers couldn't get a job as a caddy.
That has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever read.
"One good schoolteacher is worth a thousand Phil Mickelsons."
I guess that explains your complete lack of any concept of how an economy works, fiscal policy, or market valuation.
Teachers are not some special noble class. Their job is massively subsidized and over valued in many (but not all) municipalities. Neither are doctors, in my case lawyers, or any other profession. Some jobs require a higher level of specialization and knowledge (only tangentially related to formal education by the way). The only specialized knowledge it seems to take to be a public school teachers is the ability to indoctrinate students and pay union dues.
Mickelson on the other hand, is not only an incredibly gifted golfer, but he is all the more rare due to his left handedness. His income is not subsized through government compulsion, instead being freely entered into exchanges.
Idiot.
And garage, your Packers quarterback gets quite a bit more pay than any Green Bay first grade teacher does.
So are you bitching at him, too?
And he doesn't even live in Wisconsin, does he? Isn't he in Vegas?
The difference you see here is that the liberal and the conservative would both try to reduce their taxes if they could, but the good liberal with us just lies about it, or he always sends in more than he's required to, just on principle. Which do you guess it is?
Pogo said...
And garage, your Packers quarterback gets quite a bit more pay than any Green Bay first grade teacher does.
So are you bitching at him, too?
And he doesn't even live in Wisconsin, does he? Isn't he in Vegas?
You can't expect Garage to have anything resembling a coherent or consistent application of principles. Blind rage at whomever his leftist overlords have deemed "the enemy" is all he goes by.
His problem with Mickelson isn't actually his wealth, it is that he dare express a thought not 100% supportive of the Obama agenda.
The Nancy Pelosi's and John Kerry's of the world are exempt from Garage's class envy. Party trumps all for this douchenozzle.
Garage: "Man Boobs gets paid millions of dollars for playing golf."
This is hilariously false.
Phil gets paid millions of dollars a year for being one of the best and most successful performers in his area of expertise which happens to be of great interest to hundreds of millions of fans worldwide.
I mean, it's not like he's an affirmative action figure like obama who is just given nobels for being "not someone else".
garage: "Now he's off to live in a castle in Palm Beach. Why am I supposed to feel sorry for this guy again?"
Uh, you weren't. And no one said you should.
Given your political outlook, I can see why it's necessary for you to continue to create strawmen everywhere you go. It would be alot harder if you were to actually address reality.
It's a stupid conversation because of how it starts out, "I INTEND TO MOVE BECAUSE THE TAXES ARE TOO HIGH IN THIS STATE." Instead of, "Is there a reason why you moved?" "Oh yea, that, tax porpoises."
Garage: "One good schoolteacher is worth a thousand Phil Mickelsons."
"Most" schoolteachers can't even be bothered to get a degree in the subject matter they are supposed to teach.
Why should I be impressed by them?
So are you bitching at him, too?
He's not whining about it. Rodgers appears to me humble and grateful for his opportunity.
Seriously, if Mickelson wants to pay less taxes he should try working as a groundskeeper and see how he likes it. I did that work for a few years and it really isn't a picnic. I picked fucking rocks off fairways for an entire summer on a muny course before it opened. It would probably give Mickelson some much needed perspective.
If we were to press garage on his definition of a "good school teacher", it would having nothing to do with the teachers ability to impart useful knowledge to youngsters.
It would have everything to do with whether or not that schoolteacher was a dues paying member of a union.
Nothing more.
He just wants to hate on Mickelson for being rich and "pampered."
This is something I never understood. Why the envy?
He didn't take anything from someone else to get rich. He got there on his own merits.
It's like the lefties think he's taking money from their own pocket.
Envy is a terrible emotion.
garage: "Seriously, if Mickelson wants to pay less taxes he should try working as a groundskeeper and see how he likes it. I did that work for a few years and it really isn't a picnic. I picked fucking rocks off fairways for an entire summer on a muny course before it opened. It would probably give Mickelson some much needed perspective."
LOL
So there it is. Because garage is incompetent and incapable of achieving much, he is really pissed at Phil's success!
Not that we didn't know that already.
Garage: "Now he's off to live in a castle in Palm Beach...."
Just think of all the plumbers, electricians, framers, cabinetmakers, tilesetters, painters, glaziers, sheetrock tapers, surveyors, architects and others employed to build that castle, and more of the same plus houskeepers, decorators and landscapers employed to maintain and furnish it.
"...supports a thousand schoolteachers" indeed.
Rusty: "It's like the lefties think he's taking money from their own pocket."
Keeping the fruits of your own labors IS considered "taking money from other" for the lefties.
It has always been that way.
Garage wants his share of what Phils hard work and success has yielded and he and his pals won't stop pushing till them get themselves alot more of that sweet sweet "obama-phone" free stuff, all funded by the phils of the world.
And the funniest part of it?
garage and his pals won't even think to say, "hey thanks for paying for my free stuff...."
Talk about greedy.
"Seriously, if Mickelson wants to pay less taxes he should try working as a groundskeeper and see how he likes it."
He doesn't have to. He's almost mastered a game that eludes most, and is paid handsomely for it, no matter what you think.
" I did that work for a few years and it really isn't a picnic. I picked fucking rocks off fairways for an entire summer on a muny course before it opened."
Oh, so it's all about you and what YOU did. You're Inga-ing here, and it's not persuasive.
"It would probably give Mickelson some much needed perspective."
How do you know he lacks perspective? Because he doesn't like paying that much in taxes? He lives in California — a state notorious for their overzealous taxation policies and their terrible record of fruitless spending. Maybe he'd like to move to a state where his tax dollars, although lower, actually have an effect on helping his fellow man.
You know who was REALLY pampered?
Ted Kennedy.
And the left worship him still...
How many hours do you think Phil toiled at the game of golf to get to this point?
More than you'll ever be able to comprehend.
I picked fucking rocks off fairways for an entire summer on a muny course before it opened."
That's what 200hrs of community service for public indecency will getcha.
I did that work for a few years
And then you stopped. Why? Did you want to pay more in taxes?
How do you know he lacks perspective?
He doesn't seem to understand his own tax situation for starters.
Regardless of Mickelson's top rates, his actual tax bill isn't anywhere near one-half of his income. While it's hard to tell what the golfer really pays without seeing his tax returns, millionaires pay roughly 26% of their income in federal taxes, on average, according to William McBride, chief economist at the Tax Foundation.
Manboobs Mahal will only be satisfied when every person more successful than him is "humble" and "grateful" to unsuccessful worthless retards like himself.
Or when they run for office with a D after their names.
How pathetic Manboobs Mahal is. Perhaps this is what causes him to over eat. It's a vicious cycle.
"roughly 26% of their income in federal taxes"
You lweft his off, from the article you posted:
"Overall, it leaves Mickelson with a top rate of less than 53%."
Gee, the gubmint only takes 53%??
Garage,
Mickelson has over $40 million a year in earned income. I don't know what his capital gains are, but I doubt it's anywhere near that high.
He's probably paying over 40% in effective income taxes to the state and federal government.
The only knock against Mickelson is that he should have moved out of California 20 years ago. Tiger's not only a much better golfer, he's much better about taxes. Although Phil didn't pay his ex-wife over $100 million. So it's a wash.
The point is, for the left IT'S NEVER ENOUGH.
There is no top rate Democrats will not propose, even 100%.
LOL
garage's own link: "Regardless of Mickelson's top rates, his actual tax bill isn't anywhere near one-half of his income. While it's hard to tell what the golfer really pays without seeing his tax returns,..."
So let me get this straight:
1) These Tax Foundation guys cannot assert that it's "impossible" for Phil to be paying half his income in taxes, they still have no problem asserting that he isn't.
2) Garage, a demonstrated economics buffoon then feels confident to claim that Phil doesn't understand his own tax liability!
LOL
I'm sure Phil and his tax attorneys know full well what his tax liability is since they are ones who sign and prepare (respectively) those very same tax forms and write the checks!
But no, that can't be because "average" millionaires don't pay that much.
LOL
Math is hard for some.
Any ball player is an idiot if he doesn't establish his legal residence in Florida or Texas.
The bite that New York Taxes takes out of free agents is one of the many reasons that the New York Yankees have to overpay people.
But it is not just athletes. Anyone who makes over a million dollars a year is really foolish to live in states like New York or California.
Chip S. said:
All those Massholes who drive to NH for sales-tax-free shopping and cheap booze.
I grew up in NH, and my dad told me a story (apocryphal?) that once upon a time, MA would send troopers up to border liquor stores to write down MA license plate numbers in the parking lot.
Until the NH governor had the trooper picked up and thrown in jail.
(Would that have been Sununu? I remember getting to sit in his chair during a 4th grade field trip to the Capitol.)
WEA (Wisconsin's primary teacher union) published on their website what was required to make one's primary state of residence one other than Wisconsin. The idea was to be able to "live" in a state with no sales tax.
BDNYC:
"What happens when the Golden Goose stops laying eggs and the state is left a broke Third World mess?"
They will appeal to the Federal government to bail them out, claiming that the rest of the country has benefitted from the things that California has done. They will also play the "oh these poor people, they'll starve if you don't give us money for them" bit.
"Ordinary people with money in their pocket are the real job creators."
Not really. Yes, they are somewhat necessary, but they don't create wealth, and that is part of why progressive economics is a failure, and Krugman is an idiot. Taking money out of the pocket of the makers and giving it to the takers doesn't create wealth, but rather, squanders it, to some e3xtent. Yes, they create demand, but we have seen over the last 4 years just how well Keynesian style demand stimulus has worked, or rather, hasn't, given the longest recovery since FDR's very similar unsuccessful attempts to recover through demand stimulus. Didn't work for FDR, and isn't working any better for his disciple, Obama.
Innovation and efficiency is how wealth is created. And, one of the things that keeping money in the hands of the rich is that they can, and often to, put it to much better use than the government can and does. You have one person making the investment decisions, instead of a bunch of government functionaries, compounded by the political aspects of their investment decisions - which we have seen means that political connections mean much more than having a viable business plan when the government is handing out investment cash (or guaranteeing loans, which in the long run is essentially the same thing). You need to look no further than the DOE "green energy" program to see this in action.
So, one thing that keeping the money in the hands of those who earned it is that they are better at investing it than the government is. Much better, since it is their own money.
Another part of this though is on the incentive side. Many of the greatest innovations of our lifetimes started in people's garages, or the like. They often risked everything, on the small chance that they might succeed, but if they did, they would get a large payoff. Taxing that "windfall" at exorbitant rates reduces their potential payoffs, and thus, their incentive to risk everything. Might as well work for the government than take the chance of of starting your own business, because the pay is good, and the pension even better.
Plain cold fact: progressive income taxes hit the wealthy harder and sales taxes shift the tax burden to the middle class and poor. Is it any wonder that wealthy people want to live in places that rely on sales taxes and not income taxes? But I would rather pay taxes in LA than live tax free in Orlando.
Plain Cold Fact (whatever the fuck that is supposed to be, probably some amalgamation of cold hard fact): Pragmatist is an idiot.
He would rather pay taxes in L.A., than live in Orlando. From this, I gather that Pragmatist is most likely collecting some soft of welfare, and almost certainly pays no income taxes. You reek of failure and class envy.
Florida relies on sales taxes a lot of which is paid for by tourists.
They will appeal to the Federal government to bail them out, claiming that the rest of the country has benefited from the things that California has done. They will also play the "oh these poor people, they'll starve if you don't give us money for them" bit.
And, I think right now, they won't get the bailout. The Republican caucus in the House will most likely thumb their noses at CA (along with NY, IL, etc.) pointing out that their states addressed these issue, often with some pain, and why should they pay for these states doubling down on their feckless spending and taxation policies?
CA was lucky for a long time. It had a great climate, great universities, and plenty of natural resources and good farmland. But, I think that it is quite silly to expect everyone else to want to subsidize their profligate ways, which have essentially squandered many of these natural advantages. CA (NY, IL) are in this bad state not because they had natural advantages, but rather, because their natural advantages let them delay the day of reckoning longer than other states were able to.
Reality check: California is projecting a budget surplus.
garage: ""Ordinary people with money in their pocket are the real job creators."
Where did the ordinary people get the money to put into their pockets?
Don't answer garage.
You're head would explode.
"your", not "you're"
garage: "Reality check: California is projecting a budget surplus."
LOL
Reality check: Projections aren't "reality"
LOL
It's likely way too late in thread to get noticed BUT:
California (where I subserviently reside for now) relies on about 140,000 high income earners (HIE) for almost 60% of tax revenue. It doesn't take many Mickelson's moving before the whole scheme collapses on Governor Moonbeam and the Too Big To Fail Democrat apparatus in Sacramento. Thus the unholy hellfire of retribution rained on Phil for his apostasy to suggest keeping less than half his income wasn't the best plan for him.
It's a beautiful state that is driving away the people who pay for its goods and services. It is stratifying into only very wealthy and very poor classes. People like Garage who complain about the disappearing middle class and this is why. It takes an income in excess of $100K to BE middle class and yet the State will tax us all as if we were millionaires. While giving FREE or IN-STATE tuition to anyone who hops over the border. You have to be crazy or insanely cl;ever to stay here. Yes it is driving me crazy.
Oh and that budget surplus prediction is an accounting trick by virtue of receipts for JAN exceeding state outlays this month ONLY. We are projecting a deficit equal to or larger than last year's for the remainder. Garage you Dems LOVE fuzzy math, but never want to admit the whole story is fucked up and not rosy at all.
and voters in November approved a tax increase that closed most of the lingering budget gap.
That's all well and good, but let's see where actual tax receipts come in.
Also, this budget makes nary a mention of unfunded pension liabilities that the state still faces.
Manboobs Mahal said:
"Reality check: California is projecting a budget surplus."
Perhaps you would be interested in this bridge I have to sell you, it is projected to only go up in value.
But in honor of his mockeery of Phil Mickelson's side effects from his medical treatments, I hereby nominate that all commenters on this site only refer to him as Manboobs Mahal henceforth.
Not only is alliteration fun, it also serves to remind him of his weight problem, which regular readers of Althouse are quite aware of.
Scale don't lie, Manboobs Mahal.
Oh, and when is that Walker indictment coming?
Mom Jeans
Seriously, how old are you? You sound terribly immature to be interacting with adults. You're like 17 or 18 aren't you?
29 thank you very much.
But mocking Manboobs Mahal is fun for all ages.
Amazingly awesome alliteration.
"pretty soon" on Walker right?
29 thank you very much.
Really? Wow. If true, that's almost impossible to comprehend.
Manboobs Mahal
I'm sure you can add it to the vast number of things that you cannot comprehend: Math, economics, history, proper diet, etc.
But your hatred for Mickelson doesn't require comprehension, you are able to do it with raw emotions like envy and the rank inferiority that fuels it. Perhaps you should go back to picking rocks out of sandtraps, you could try and organize a union of golf course workers. That will teach Phil to dare question what percentage of his earnings he gets to keep.
So is "pretty soon" going to occur within 2013? 2014? Oh wait, perhaps I have the answer, is the concept of time also on the list of things you don't comprehend?
"I picked fucking rocks off fairways for an entire summer on a muny course before it opened."
"I picked...""
And thus, we have the story of Garage Mahal discovering his own Peter Principle.
I'm stunned Garage Mahal made it up so high.
Garage, you rock.
Literally...
I picked fucking rocks off fairways for an entire summer on a muny course before it opened.
I did that too, but it was a private course. Not country club private, but owned by a private company. Anyone can golf there if they pay the green fee.
The work sucked, but wasn't my worst job.
The work sucked, but wasn't my worst job.
Working in the woods cutting and skidding firewood was the hardest job I've had. Picking rocks sucked the most though.
My brother ran a truck farm with a friend of his. We laid black plastic, planted, hoed corn, weeded harvested and (the easy part) sold it all in a roadside stand. Rain/shine/hot/cold all day every day except when I was doing my paper route. The pay (when it came) sucked. My boss wasn't as big an asshole as I thought at the time, so I'll give him that.
"But I would rather pay taxes in LA than live tax free in Orlando."
That depends on how much you have to pay. I'll be leaving L.A. due to taxes plus the fact that every where you go is crowded. I went miles in to the woods last week to walk my dogs and it was like Disneyland with all the people, kids, dogs, horses, bicycles, yapping, noise. It's more peaceful in downtown Orlando than the "wilderness" in L.A.'s mountains, which I used to love. Not to mention that I could have an alligator ranch with a fan boat and feed Gentle Ben there for the price of a small condo in L.A.
Picking rocks sucks.
As a resident of FL, I say bring it on! Since I moved here I have often observed that the only thing that Florida has to do to rebound is to resist the temptation to implement a state income tax.
Prior the onset of the recession in 2007, forecasts had FL exceeding 20M in population by 2010. Instead, the in-migration slowed as people were locked into their real estate elsewhere, and then current residents of the sunshine state experienced natural attrition, as older folks do.
So, we are still under 20M, but not for much longer. Florida will soon surpass NY and become the 3rd most populous state, and that will be helped a great deal by three things:
1) the relative tax burden in other states; and
2) the fact that Article X of the FL Constitution exempts homestead properties from judgment claims. It means that you can plow a lot of coin into a residence here and have rock solid asset protection for that amount; and
3) the weather is fucking fantastic!
Shaming doesn't work in golf because these guys are by definition independent contractors.
Garage mahal has gotten it exactly right:
California is growing the middle class out just like Barry O and Jumpin' Joe want to do.
They are on the cusp of a equal, just, and verdant future, and the magic light rail system will not only put all races together harmoniously, but it will be good for the environment and the economy.
Gaaaargh!
Weep for multi-millionare Californians!
garage mahal said...
He doesn't seem to understand his own tax situation for starters.
How fucking stupid do you have to be to post a link that idiotic?
Holy cow are you a complete & utter moron.
garage mahal said...
Weep for multi-millionare Californians!
Keep posting stupid strawmen, fatso.
You are an embarrassment.
garage mahal said...
Reality check: California is projecting a budget surplus.
Reality check: Wisconsin has a budget surplus.
You're fat! You're dumb!
Every Jay post, ever.
Quality stuff.
G arage. The article you linked and the wuote you plucked from it say two different things. The quote you chose pertained to most wealthy taxpayers whose incomes derive from capital gains. The golfer's income from golf wins is all ordinary income. But you knew that.
G arage. The article you linked and the wuote you plucked from it say two different things. The quote you chose pertained to most wealthy taxpayers whose incomes derive from capital gains. The golfer's income from golf wins is all ordinary income. But you knew that.
The difference between professional golfers and teachers is one keeps score and is paid based on that score. You can't really say a teacher is outstanding or not because we don't keep score. Which is amazing since teaching is one of oldest professions and several teaching organizations do it; such as the Army. Note, that's a K thru 12 statement.
he golfer's income from golf wins is all ordinary income. But you knew that.
No, no, he has not one utter fucking clue what "ordinary income" means.
Nor does he seem to understand that what a group pays on an average in federal taxes isn't really relevant to this single case where a total tax burden is being discussed.
Mainly because he's an uneducated, not that bright, easily misled moron.
"He grew up in Florida."
That's no excuse for not doing his adult duty!
garage mahal said...
How do you know he lacks perspective?
He doesn't seem to understand his own tax situation for starters.
Regardless of Mickelson's top rates, his actual tax bill isn't anywhere near one-half of his income. While it's hard to tell what the golfer really pays without seeing his tax returns, millionaires pay roughly 26% of their income in federal taxes, on average, according to William McBride, chief economist at the Tax Foundation.
The article is SPECULATING on his tax situaion. Without his tax returns it's IMPOSSIBLE to know what he is paying.
You need to work on critical thinking skills.
All of which is beside the point. It's HIS money. He can work to shelter it, give it away, or pay more in taxes. Whatever he prefers.It's-His-Money-To-Do-With-As-He-Pleases. Nothing he is doing is illegal. He isn't taking a dime from you.
Christ. You have the reasoning abilities of a child.
Nor does he seem to understand that what a group pays on an average in federal taxes isn't really relevant to this single case where a total tax burden is being discussed.
So you think Mickelson is paying about 62% of his income in combined local, state, and federal taxes, as he claims? Yes or no, weasel.
So you think Mickelson is paying about 62% of his income in combined local, state, and federal taxes, as he claims?
Yes he does. The average tax rate you quote is meaningless, because people like Warren Buffett, who make their money from investments, have numerous (legal) tax dodges available to them and already pay a much lower capital gains rate. Mickelson's money is treated by the IRS as if he was collecting wages.
He's a wage earner, garage, just like you and me.
garage mahal said...
Nor does he seem to understand that what a group pays on an average in federal taxes isn't really relevant to this single case where a total tax burden is being discussed.
So you think Mickelson is paying about 62% of his income in combined local, state, and federal taxes, as he claims? Yes or no, weasel.
What's it to you? Why is what he makes important to you?
California will still try to tax people who leave for low tax states. They tried it with military retirees, claiming that the retirement income was earned in California, so they should be able to tax it. It went to court but I don't know how it came out. Rush Limbaugh has been audited by New York every year since he moved to Florida. I think it's over 15 years now. High tax states don't ever let go.
There was slut shaming and recently fat shaming...
...now, tax shaming. I like it.
Shame on, Phil. Shame on.
Quit apologizing like a little beta coward.
Grow a spine.
Garage: Reality check: California is projecting a budget surplus.
"Reality" and "projecting a surplus" in the same sentence... giggle
...you're so cute, I wish I had a camera.
garage mahal said...
So you think Mickelson is paying about 62% of his income in combined local, state, and federal taxes, as he claims?
Yes. And no link to CNN talking about federal taxation remotely addresses the point, idiot.
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