Yea, even as there are 12 signs of the zodiac in Astrology, there are
16 personality types in Myers-Briggs.
Academics would contend that... Myers-Briggs... [is] about belief much more than scientific evidence. And it’s administered by leadership coaches who, by and large, have no formal education in the science of psychology.
“People like it because it reveals something they didn’t know about themselves or others,” says [Adam Grant, a professor of industrial psychology at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School]. “That could be true of a horoscope, too.”
Even Katharine Downing Myers concedes that “psychologists had no use for the indicator; they felt that Jung was a crazy mystic.”
And yet the psychological community has been reticent to speak up too vocally against it. The fact is, many psychology professors do lucrative side work as organizational consultants. And as taboo as it is to praise Myers-Briggs in U.S. academia, it’s equally taboo to disparage it in corporate America.
Maybe if it were understood to be more of a religion/religion substitute, corporate America could overcome its embarrassing dependency on this pseudoscience.
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Myers-Briggs is the corporate version of astrology.
Penelope Trunk sent me to a site that does a slightly different version of the same thing.
I started to take the test. Unbearable.
Corporate screening is a mess in the Diversity era. College degrees have ceased to be an indicator of much of anything, except that the student managed to slog through to the end, particularly in the liberal arts.
I'm trying to find a part time work at home job so that I can stay as far away from corporate politics as possible. I just want the money, not the crap
"Working at some fucking job," is incredibly over-rated.
I think it is a useful framework, especially for those of us with lower percentage types--I'm a very strong INTJ--to help understand why no one sees the world the way we do.
It's a bit silly to say it's like astrology, other than being like other things that have categories for people.
It's not predictive. It's explanatory. It's also not thorough, but helpful for low-level problems to help understand in a general way what people value, how they see the world. The categories aren't rigorous, but they are based on how someone answers a long list of questions--so is saying something about that person.
Not unlike the PF16, which I took in seminary (mandatory for every MDiv student). Myers-Briggs is more helpful than that precisely because it is more popular and common.
The only 2 surveys I've ever taken that pegged me well are the MMPI & the MBTI. Actually, as an extreme asocial INTJ, I don't think most corporations would have me.
I got the auto-play ad, also.
Yeah, everyone is a special snowflake. If you can put me in a box you will judge me for what I apparently am. It's just one tool. Sort of like what religion is to some people.
It's really big in churches too, by the way, though the Strengths Test is getting more popular.
Both suffer the same problems I suspect corporate America does, namely that the organizations have no interest in actually adapting to the strengths and types, they just want people to feel more empowered by knowing, and then in that empowerment being a more enlightened cog, no different in role than before.
A very high proportion of blog commenters seem to be INTJ, including myself.
Corporations are run by managers who like to paint a shiny gloss of fake science on their essentially gut decisions? Who knew?
C'mon, you guys have read enough Dilbert to know the answer to this!
Sorry, I first read that as... Meyer's Juggs.
Mondo Topless
What does that say about me?
Warning: Nudity, NSFW.
I got my Meyers-Briggs down to 24.1 with regular exercise and a low carb diet
I'm in a similar boat as Paddy. Of the group in which I worked (about 50), I was the only one of my type (which I forget).
We were Meyers-Briggs'ed as part of a company-wide shakeup and I'm wondering if it was used to help pick the casualties when the massacre came.
There ARE different personality types. People tend to fall into various methods and categories of dealing with life, with jobs and with interpersonal relationships.
Whether your personality trends are inherited/genetic or learned is still being debated. However, that there are different personality trends is obvious.
There are many people that I just cannot work with. Their personalities and the way they think and deal with issues is unfathomable to me. I just cannot get along with them in the work place. I CAN avoid them in private life.
There are persons who can lead a team. There are those like Shouting who work better alone. There are those who are touchy feely types and those who are more logical and scientific. Not all jobs are suitable for all persons.
As a business owner or corporate leader, I would want to assemble the best team possible. Let those who need space and aloneness to be functional work at the tasks that best suit them. Let those who require constant interaction and feelings work in those tasks that are best suited for them.
I've taken those tests several times. Everytime, without fail, I test as an strongly INTJ personality. I don't disagree with this at all and anyone who knows me also agrees that I fit that description.
"Yeah, everyone is a special snowflake."
I've always liked what my psychologist ex-wife would say: Everyone has a loose screw. What varies between people is which screw is loose.
Maybe if it were understood to be more of a religion/religion substitute, corporate America could overcome its embarrassing dependency on this pseudoscience.
Much as I'd like to think so, I'm afraid psychology is here to stay.
The trouble with MB and its basis in astrology is how often they get personality types right without any basis that we can accept.
The E-Harmony dating website is apparently based upon MB for matching up types.
Free will and scientific study are offended by such ancient ways. So banning them is a rational response. The Judeo-Christian tradition bans them as divination, but many folks study these anyway. Sir Isaac Newton was one seeker of such knowledge much to the embarrassment of the British Royal Scientific Society.
What personality type doesn't like read long rambling articles?
The US State Dept. uses the Myers-Briggs in its management training programs. It's not so much as a tool to be used in the office as it is a way of recognizing that different people process information differently. It's used as a warning to not get all crazy because someone is doing things differently, so long as they're doing them productively.
INTJ myself.
How strange.
It's not astrology. It's a somewhat useful tool. Some of corporate America finds it somewhat useful. Hardly a religious adherence.
And the current economy has brought much of the fluff like that onto the chopping block.
In the first comment, which I've now deleted, Kevin noted that he was getting an autoplay ad from this blog. I thank him for flagging that, and I've found the cause and fixed it.
Introverts with confident, strong opinions = INTJ = active blog commenters.
The ad, by the by, is from the Weird Al video.
I think I came up as INTJ when I took the test long ago.
"'What's your star sign?' said Mary Ellen..."
"There are persons who can lead a team. There are those like Shouting who work better alone. There are those who are touchy feely types and those who are more logical and scientific...."
There are those who stereotype others and proceed to shun the types deemed troublesome.
"The ad, by the by, is from the Weird Al video."
The ad is from Weird Al's official site, and it's fine for him to make money off his hilarious videos, but autoplay is awful.
I put the video after a jump.
I probably could have put some code in there to avoid auto play.
Is there some code I could put in my template that would prevent anything from ever autoplaying?
I also got the auto-play. Spent the 30 seconds trying to figure out how to turn it off. Have no idea what was said or who was saying it.
M-B: Paganistic tendencies are hardwired into our lizard brain. It's how we deal with, rationalize and explain the unknown. Those with the best un-verifiable/un-falsifiable story get to be the shaman.
Cheers
Myers-Briggs... It's either a "big pharma" company, or they make really good lawn mower engines!
There are those who stereotype others and proceed to shun the types deemed troublesome
Now now.....there is no need to shun me.
There must be good advice somewhere on the internet telling you how to answer the questions in a way that will further the career you want and block your corporate test-giver from discriminating against your "type" and putting you in some bullshit department you don't want.
The non-pagan version in churches is called spiritual gifts. There are sorters for that too.
Serves the same purpose of categorizing for perceived engagement while not making actual structural changes.
What does the Catholic Church say about the Meyers-Briggs cult?
Sure you could 'game' the test and pose as a different personality type than you are. Then you might be put into a job or occupation that you 'want' but for which you might be unsuited to do to the detriment of the company and to those working around you. The testing isn't for YOU. It is for the company that is hiring you.
As Paddy says the Myers-Briggs test is not predictive. It doesn't mean that a person WILL act in a certain way, just that the likelihood is higher.
Here's the popular one these days:
http://www.strengthsfinder.com/home.aspx
The personality tests of any kind are all easy to manipulate, indeed most psychology tests are, if you know what they're looking for.
I can't find a good clip of it, but I remember the Miracle on 34th Street scenes dealing with the pseudo psychology and Kris Kringle's manipulating the psych tests.
There are a lot of INTJs here - interesting!
INTP.
The MMPI has ways to detect if you are b*llshitting the test. They are called validity scales. There is an L scale for lying, and a K scale for detecting guarded responses.
Academics and higher socioeconomic status types tend to have high K scores.
"putting you in some bullshit department you don't want."
That's the benefit of answering it correctly, to me. If it's being used right people get put into the bullshit department they do want.
Then a person shines in that department. That's the ideal goal.
What does the Catholic Church say about the Meyers-Briggs cult?
I couldn't say about MB, but a group of Jesuits played a key role in popularizing the Enneagram, a nine-type personality system from occult teachers, Gurdjieff and Ichazo.
What does the Catholic Church say about the Meyers-Briggs cult?
Well, if is a cult, regardless of type, it would violate the First Commandment, no?
The MMPI has ways to detect if you are b*llshitting the test. They are called validity scales. There is an L scale for lying, and a K scale for detecting guarded responses.
My mother took the MMPI back in the seventies. She was bemused by the question, "Do you like to fix doorknobs?"
I think MB helps people to understand why others understand or think about things in a different way than they do - (psst...a particular problem for Extroverts).
Instead of just thinking of each other as freaks people sometimes get a little more insight into what diversity really is about.
There are those who stereotype others and proceed to shun the types deemed troublesome.
Althouse, you work in the most one-dimensional, deliberately segregated environment in the U.S., academia.
You chose to be there.
Those who live in glass houses... you know?
A caste system has great value to the favored ones. Whether there is a science behind it or not seems irrelevant to the users of the system to get what they want.
Ergo: Freud and Jung will continue to have usefulness although they have been totally debunked by science through time.
Like Darwin's hypothesis, their Psychoanalytic hypothesis cannot be replaced until a more useful tool is available to scam the rubes.
@Gideon7/
There are ways to mastermind the MMPI despite the validity scales if you've taken it enough to identify the repetition of the validating questions even in varied forms. (As the saying goes, "if I had a dime...I'd be a rich man" lol) Attending a Univ Lab school in the 50s grades 1-8 there is hardly a test of ANY kind I HAVEN'T taken multiple times. Then came the Air Force and all the psych exams that go w. nuclear wpns. THEN pvt industry..lol I can be a chameleon to be whatever you want me to be if needed..
"scam the rubes"
HeH--Good, but I prefer "hype the natives." LOL.
Not too long ago, I went to the website for the U.S. Navy and took some kind of test or other.
They told me I should be an aircraft mechanic.
I'll bet they tell everybody they should be an aircraft mechanic.
I get different results for the MB depending on the context. If I take it at home thinking about my family I'm ENFP. But if I take it at work I'm INTJ.
If you even know about the MMPI then you've probably seen this parody already anyway, but what the hell.
I used Myers-Briggs as my basis for presorting job candidates for accounting. It worked like a charm. My batting average on hiring good employees went to 100% - so I really don't care what the psych people say.
And it sure beats the who moved my cheese bs.
"Sure you could 'game' the test and pose as a different personality type than you are. Then you might be put into a job or occupation that you 'want' but for which you might be unsuited to do to the detriment of the company and to those working around you. The testing isn't for YOU. It is for the company that is hiring you."
They are employing pseudoscience in a way that constrains and directs you. You have a right to rebel and resist. YOU are for you!!!
"That's the benefit of answering it correctly, to me. If it's being used right people get put into the bullshit department they do want."
First, it's pseudoscience. The accuracy of the slotting is only a matter of faith.
Second, if the desirable departments are, say, filled with one type and there's an undesirable department to be filled up with those who are considered good at mediating difficult personalities or whatever, you might want to figure that out and take advantage that you don't get sent into a career cul-de-sac.
Even if somebody else really would be worse than you in that dept, you don't want to get stuck there. And whatever prejudice about personality is advancing some people... get in on that. Sure, you'll still have to do the job and prove yourself, but so what? The employer is relying on bullshit.
And, btw, it probably ends up discriminating against women, putting them in "people" functions instead of high-level responsibility. I don't know if that's true. That's just some bullshit pseudoscience I concocted.
ENTP. ENTJ sometimes as I aged. The test made me aware I shouldn't slap I's up the side of the head and say "Get over yourself!" Still want to, however.
Kept letting security clearances lapse as my job changed and then had to take the MMPI again when it changed again. Got so that I could do the 4-500 question MMPI in 45 minutes. Mainly because I stopped trying to game the test. The first time through I'd sweat the question "Do you like tall women?" If I say yes, am I hostile? If I say no, am I gay? What is the right answer if I am indifferent? "Do you have more frequent bowel movements that other people?" Who counts? The question goes to whether we feel we are "special," but not knowing the answer drove me to ask my gastroenterologist and suddenly start paying attention. How not healthy was that?
I spent two years in the novitiate of a prominent Catholic religious order living in a relatively closed environment with about 20 other guys.
The point of the closed environment is first to learn how to pray and second how to get along with people you would not otherwise have chosen to live with.
Thus there are a lot of conflicts.
One year in we did a five-day long Communications and Myers-Briggs workshop.
It was extremely useful and gave us a common framework and language not only to work out conflicts but also to work together despite very sharp personality differences.
The MBTI is not the end all and be all but is highly useful. I don't know of anything as useful to get a quick grasp of personality differences.
The MBTI is also limited. It is just one way to slice the personological pie.
The talk of MBTI cult here is anti-intellectual hysteria. Don't condemn what you do not understand and have given no more than cursory study.
Not too long ago, I went to the website for the U.S. Navy and took some kind of test or other.
They told me I should be an aircraft mechanic.
I'll bet they tell everybody they should be an aircraft mechanic
Eons ago in high school, when I was thinking about joining the military (I have several relatives who were airforce Colonel and Lt Colonels), I took the general military test or whatever it was. They wanted me to be a navigator....until they found out that I was a girl.
I took a B-M test a few years back, it was very enlightening. Don't knock it until you try it.
ENTP. ENTJ sometimes as I aged. The test made me aware I shouldn't slap I's up the side of the head and say "Get over yourself!" Still want to, however.
As an INTP I just want to say, your days of glorifying yourself in an extrovert freak show (EFS) are soon coming to an end, Christy.
For the record - an INTJ.
The proliferation of INTJs here must explain something.
First, I obviously doesn't stand for Introvert, it stands for Internet.
"That's just some bullshit pseudoscience I concocted."
I trust your judgment.
What I hear you saying is that there are roles that inherently offer more advancement and roles that are limiting, and personality tests often serve as gatekeepers for the more desirable positions. So, even if you'd be better at it, it would be worse for you.
Let me think about that.
I work from home now. I can switch from INTJ to ENPF pretty fast during a family interruption, but it takes about 20 minutes for me to mentally switch gears back to INTJ to make any progress on my software writing.
Needless to say the family has learned not to interrupt daddy too much when he's working, because he gets cranky.
They are employing {laws} in a way that constrains and directs you. You have a right to rebel and resist. YOU are for you!!!
Sure you do. Be a rebel :-) But, they also have the right not to hire you at all.
And most women do fall into the people functions type of personality and jobs that fit that personality type. So what?
Putting people into positions where they do not fit just because you want to be politically or 'genderly' correct creates chaos. [affirmative action anyone?] For example, I know that I do not belong in a job where I am required to excessively empathize or be touchy feely with people. I could never be a nurse or a teacher of small children. It takes special skills and the personality to deal with those types of jobs. I don't have those skills. I know it. It isn't a lack on my part....it just is. I have other skills that an elementary school teacher would not have to do my previous jobs.
It would be a bad thing for ME to be in those types of occupations and it wouldn't be very good for my clients or students either.
Square peg....round hole. Find the job or occupation that suits you and where you can shine.
It is a classic chicken-and-egg problem: No major journal has published on it, therefore no elite academic will support it, therefore no major journal will publish on it.
Meyers-Briggs hasn't been debunked as pseudoscience. Academics won't study it.
Myers-Briggs most likely spread through HR executives and managers via the age-old copycat. Some successful company was doing it, so now everyone else wanted to try it too. You can likely thank HR folks for this moreso than CEOs. And in their defense, it gave them something a little more quantifiable on which to make hiring decisions. You think Myers-Briggs is voodoo science; at least it's a step up from going with Marge from HR's gut. Hiring is a dart-toss, even with all the due diligence in the world.
Myers-Briggs does serve some usefulness. I don't think it's good for excluding someone from most positions unless they are really extreme in one area that runs exactly counter to what you are looking for. Even then, you'd want to confirm their behavior through regular interviewing and reference checking. I've seen plenty of I's (introverts) who are great with people, but just need regular breaks to recharge on their own.
One area where M-B works well is for managers, especially ones new to managing. It's common for new managers to manage the way they'd like to be managed, thus they may not be aware how they are not connecting with parts of their team, or if they are aware, they may not know how to reach them. M-B can give a manager good tools to work. But yes; you have to be on guard not to harbor bias against those whose traits are different than yours. Each trait has its strengths and weaknesses, and nobody hews exactly to their M-B profile in all situations. If you keep that in mind, it can be a helpful tool.
keys to succeed in business:
* clear objectives.
* real incentives.
* lack of distraction.
all else point to management failure.
Wisdom from Joe Schmoe.
ISTJ here, for what it's worth.
To all you haters:
M-B is quite useful.
Used properly (the same caution applied to anything at all), it can aid in self-reflection and help in communication and understanding of others.
If you don't think so, if you want to ignorantly mock it, well you know what they say about pearls before swine.
Academics are teaching it. I was a psych major for a time.
If you've studied the MB and the Five Factor model, it is easy to see why a journalist would highly favor the latter. (Note the sample items. Now there's some major league... well, you know.)
As I recall, there were identical twin studies done on the MB, but perhaps I am remembering incorrectly. Must be because I'm so open.
I don't know that I believe in any model of personality typing, but that's beside the point.
The Five Factor is, in my opinion, more of a How Great Do I Think I Am test.
Always end up an ESFJ, even when I tried lying on the test. I guess I'm a natural caregiver nurse type. I wanted to be a ballerina.
I am a strong INFP. I once joined an INFP internet discussion group but soon quit it when I realized I had nothing in common with the other members.
I am amazed that somebody hasn't already quoted Robert Benchley's Law of Distinction: “There are two kinds of people in the world, those who believe there are two kinds of people in the world and those who don’t.”
I have repeatedly tested as INFP and was a little freaked out, the first time I took the test, at how precisely it seemed to describe me. Of course, horoscopes can seem the same way.
Ann - I run a global consulting business for the process industries. I work with MBTI related concepts routinely, have for 20 plus years, and don't find anything cultish or horoscopy about it. It does give people a framework to understand people not like themselves, and while it may not be useful to a high wattage professor, it is an aid to the average Joe. It certainly doesn't tell you everything you might want to know about a person, but the hints it gives are plenty useful. Once you master the basic and OBSERVABLE preferences, you don't need to use the indicator anyway. It is helpful for the people I work with to know, for example, the difference between introverts and extroverts and how to adjust their communications style to fit either one.
Academics have long looked down their noses at the MBTI, though, but truly, I don't give a fuck. The absolutely LAST people on the planet to turn to for advice on how to manage a chemical manufacturing facility or a refinery are academics. The academic psychological community has provided no useful advice to that purpose in the thirty years I have been in the industry. Are YOU, dear hostess, sitting on a wealth of practical advice that working people can immediately use to better manage their shift team? If so, please dish! Otherwise, I will look to you for thoughtful social commentary or when I need to sniff a hidden penumbra out of an otherwise clear bit of prose.
A relative of mine flew fighters in the Air Force. His squadron would have delivered first strike nuclear weapons behind the Iron Curtain in the 1980s, if need be. They regularly practiced that mission.
He once told me...The only difference between a serial killer and a fighter pilot is the answer to one question on a personality test.
LOL!
INFP as well.
Jung's theory is complex, beautiful, and loony. I found it MUCH easier to read people writing about Jung than to read Jung. The men's movement of the late 80s was strongly influenced by the archtype concept. It can still be quite helpful with some people. 90% of the world's Jungian therapists are in Boulder.
The MBTI is not strictly Jungian, though it is based on an interpretation of Jungian theory. It can be a really helpful test in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Sure, it can be EASILY faked, but that is not the point or typical use of the test. It is more typically used on cooperative subjects and has decent reliability in those circumstances.
Joe Schmoe made accurate statements, fine job sir!
The MMPI is indeed hard to fake, but the Personailty Assessment Instrument is even harder to fake in my experience. It has great computer algorithims to suss out all kinds of test taking mischief!
Then there is the Rorschach, which is very, very difficult to fake, but also very, very difficult to use and more difficult to defend!
Trey - occasional test giver
I loved St George's comment. Could have been many people I knew and worked with. When we converted from F-4Es to F-16s, I had the best score on nuclear weapons up until the last day, when some Captain beat me out, as it should be.
That was after I used MB when I ran a panel on the Air Force Innovation Task Force. John Burgess nailed it for me. The US State Dept. uses the Myers-Briggs in its management training programs. It's not so much as a tool to be used in the office as it is a way of recognizing that different people process information differently.
With a bunch of officers from different career fields and different parts of the world, we needed an ice breaker and a way of signalling that we needed to be open to all styles of thinking and brain storming. MB did the trick on the first day of our meetings down at Hurlbert AFB.
I am an INTP, but right on the edge. My wife claims I am really an INTJ. The being on the edge part helped me understand that while I am laid back about issues (a "P"), when the deadline appears, my "J" really kicks in.
Regards — Cliff
I found this quote in the linked article to be remarkable;
No major journal has published research on the MBTI, which academics consider a strong repudiation of the test’s authority.
First, what 'academics' did she talk to who would openly say that if something hadn't been properly studied then it probably wasn't worth studying? And second, if it is true that there has been no serious study of the most widely used psychological tool in the business world, then why not?
Some here are responding to criticism of the MBTI that the tests (or their results) gave them insights into their personalities. My question would be: how do you know? What is the non-BM evidence that you are appealing to in order to validate the results of MB?
This reminds me of my wife trying to teach arithmetic to my daughter. She has many talents, but that's not one. Saying the same thing, over and over, isn't teaching a kid negative numbers or fractions, which are pretty easy if you can just grasp the concepts. I just figured out different ways to explain them.
It must have worked, she's a PhD candidate in a Scientific field.
People prefer to, or are able to process information differently. I've found MB useful in knowing how to convey important information, not defining of their worth or a screen for employment.
One of my co-workers came across as an idiot to anyone who didn't understand that she was literally thinking out loud. She's gone on to have a very successful career. I was the deciding vote in her hiring.
Not too bad for an INTP/J, if I do say so myself. My natural inclination would be to go into Drill Insructor mode. MB helps me know myself enough to step back and find a solution, or see my biases.
It's not astrology or religion, just a tool.
Corporate America? Wasn't that the crappy last album from Boston?
ENFP - Pastoral counselor in private practice for over 30 years. Use the indicator with great success to help others understand themselves and their relationships better. Nothing like astrology, nothing at all.
The Enneagram is the other very useful personality tool. Put these together, voila, self awareness without "personality disorder" labels.
Wish you lawyers and INTJs would stick to what you know, and let us feeling types, NFs do what we know.
Psychologists do use these instruments, and they do work.
Paddy,
I'm so sorry, but your 10:59am put me in mind of "The Department of Shining Bullshit". Now, where do I go to get my mind back? ;-)
MBTI doesn't forecast or tell you how your day is going to go...nor should it be used to predict your strengths or aptitudes.
It is fascinating to see so many INTPs/INTJs here. I'm an INTP.
Kchiker said...
It is fascinating to see so many INTPs/INTJs here. I'm an INTP.
As am I. Solid. No letter even close to its opposite.
My wife is an ISFJ. What saves us? We believe the shared "I", and close in IQ.
And here is something not well enough appreciated - communication starts to break down significantly, when the IQ gap between 2 people gets into the 20's and beyond.
Don't believe it? Think on your chosen close friends. How would you judge their intelligence?
I've told both my kids, many times, to make sure they understand that, more than anything, marriage is a lifelong conversation. Make sure it is not a struggle.
"As am I. Solid. No letter even close to its opposite."
Interesting that so many here are INTP and INTJ when they are pretty rare types. Many ISFJs would be following me around the house with a broom and dustpan.
The MMPI that I took in the 60s, had so many questions about hating your parents that by the end of the test, I was ready to start saying I did.
BTW, I am also an INTJ.
Interesting that so many here are INTP and INTJ when they are pretty rare types
Maybe it's partly this.
We are "systems" and "big picture" people. We want to understand things. We want things to make sense, in the whole. We see the down-stream and 'relatedness' ramifications of things. So we like to stay up on politics and culture. And to comment on things that are inconsistent, hypocritical, dangerous, etc. Because we see those things quickly.
And we like to comment on them.
And another INTJ, every time I encounter the test.
I took the test as part of my evaluation for Ministry in 82 and since then I have been Jungian in my framework of understanding. No, Jung is not universally disdained. Yes, many in Psychology do not approve of him but not all. I found this framework very helpful in understanding myself and it's helped guide me into more appropriate endeavors and to avoid things that I would clearly not be suitable for. Whats wrong with that? I strongly disagree with you here.
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