If it is sinful from the Catholic perspective, it is only sinful in that he may have lead others astray, those who did not know of his intentional celibacy.No comment from me. Presented for what it's worth.
But all this would be a view of the man, struggling for the good, failing and succeeding as only sinners can, not of the caricature our Gays vs. Hate world is comfortable with. It’s a pity, as an understanding of Warhol’s Catholicism lends a unique — and ignored — insight into his art.
Here's a book: "The Religious Art of Andy Warhol."
ADDED: From Andy's diary:
“Yesterday, I was watching a game show, Blockbusters with Bill Cullen, and it was two black guys, a warden and his cousin, against a white girl and the category was “Letters” and the question was: “Andy Warhol is a ‘V.’” And (laughs) she got the answer right, she said “Virgin.””
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50 comments:
So if your sexual orientation is homosexual, but you don't perform homosexual acts, does that mean you're not really gay?
It's the act that's wrong, not the attraction, according to the Church.
Choosing that path must have been very difficult, but the irony here is that it would have made him hated by the Dan Savage types as some sort of traitor.
MisterBuddwing said...
So if your sexual orientation is homosexual, but you don't perform homosexual acts, does that mean you're not really gay?
As I understand it, "gay" is a lifestyle
Your "No comment from me" speaks volumes.
No, You're really still gay.
Just as you would be still be straight, if you didn't perform any heterosexual acts.
BTW Bad Catholic's blog (the link) is awesome, for such a young guy.
I think some people are just A-sexual for whatever reason. My sis-n-law is one.
She is sweet, attractive, though a bit old fashioned looking. She is successful at work, we'll liked. She's approaching 50 and has never been on a date with either sex that I'm aware of. If she were a lesbian, her family would embrace that, so it isn't that she is hiding anything.
Very interesting. Not as interesting as the claim that Andy Warhol was a weatherman in Indiana, but it is interesting and has the virtue of probably being being correct.
Wait... Andy Warhol was gay?
I've been married to a man for some time, and always dated men/guys. Still I remember being single just for a relevantly short time in college, and people would be making assumptions I was now gay because essentially I wasn't having sex with anyone.
I can only imagine how incredibly annoying for any single person not in a relationship, having people guess at one's sexual orientation. No one should ever have to prove their orientation, or come out, or anything.
Not having sex, shouldn't make you a freak.
And don't we all need more cheap beats?
Darn, the comment spam was deleted so my last comment is just hanging there now.
somefeller said...
Very interesting. Not as interesting as the claim that Andy Warhol was a weatherman in Indiana, but it is interesting and has the virtue of probably being being correct.
Good Lord, I say something complimentary about the guy (Warhol) and all some phony folksy can do is indulge his obsession with me.
Too weird.
There are many artists in the past who combined what we would consider, uhhhmm, "earthy" sensibilities with the ability to produce works of great religious profundity. I know the musical side much better than the artistic side, but composers such as Josquin Des Prez & Orlando di Lasso produced liturgical works of timeless beauty as well as secular pieces of incredible lewdness (but some of them, also of beauty).
Many moderns look back and see the profane as undermining the secular, but the inhabitants of the Middle Ages or Renaissance didn't see it that way. It's interesting to see in Warhol maybe a modern man whose secular life was a pose, and his sense of the sacred undermined the profane.
Why is Andy Warhol's IQ pegged at 86 on several internet sites? This is like trying to google information on Rick Santorum.
Is it true or is it a smear?
I don't think Warhol was asexual, I think he was in terror of touching an other or being touched. Just a vibe he gave off. The total lack of affect.
Not obsession, just mockery, though it looks like the obsession is on your end, edutcher. For example, I've noticed you mention me from time to time in threads I'm not even participating in, and have come up with an entire mythology of how I am one of many sockpuppets of the same nefarious villain.
And I would think you'd be complimented by my mention of your amazing discovery of some heretofore unknown Warhol trivia. Hey, maybe you can elaborate on that theory, now's your shot and it wouldn't be off-topic.
Considering some phony folksy's life boils down to mocking me - pretty pathetic considering he still live in Mom's basement - you'd expect he'd want a better goal in life.
Trolling the Internet with a cast of sockpuppets in no way to live your life.
PS Lurking all day just to find a thread to get back at me for last night is even sadder.
I'd continue this gay repartee, but my AV is going to scan my machine and that's more important.
(that is the way he and his sockopuppets always bail from a thread where they're losing)
somefeller chides: ...and have come up with an entire mythology of how I am one of many sockpuppets of the same nefarious villain.
Well, you're one of the Sullivanists here, characterized by an irrational hatred of Bush II and Sarah Palin, and a prideful elevation of SSM to paramount importance.
Always declare victory, edutcher! That's the way to be convincing.
But seriously, tell us more about your theories of mass sockpuppetry at this website and the short career of Andy Warhol as an Indianapolis weatherman. That's some good stuff and shouldn't be relegated to the mists of history.
I don't agree with somefeller on much, but damn, that Warhol was a TV weatherman in Indanapolis thing was funny. Almost as good as the time garage was bragging on Al Gore's environmentally friendly Texas ranch, lol.
Well, you're one of the Sullivanists here, characterized by an irrational hatred of Bush II and Sarah Palin, and a prideful elevation of SSM to paramount importance.
When have I expressed hatred of Bush II? I've barely mentioned the fellow since he left office and didn't have anything particularly vitriolic to say about him when he was in office, other than to say my vote for him in 2000 was one to regret. I have long considered Palin to be a joke, but that's not hatred and isn't an uncommon view. And SSM is an important issue, just ask Rick Santorum. Though I'm not sure how prideful it is to bring up the topic.
And thanks for the kind words, Maguro. Good comedy should always be enjoyed and crosses all party lines.
I've used Andy Warhol many times as my example of the rich getting worse medical care than the middle class. He bled to death after a routine gallbladder surgery in a private room with a private duty nurse.
When I was a resident we used to joke about student nurses recording the blood pressure as it slowly dropped to zero. That's exactly what happened with Warhol.
@somefeller: Thanks for that link to 4 years ago almost to the day. Victoria really pwnd you in that one. I wonder what you wrote about Palin over the prior two days to warrant what she said.
@somefeller: Thanks for that link to 4 years ago almost to the day. Victoria really pwnd you in that one. I wonder what you wrote about Palin over the prior two days to warrant what she said.
Well, I had to look back at the thread to see what pwnage you might be referring to. All I saw was someone calling me an idiot. Now, that description may be factually correct, but usage of that term isn't much in the way of pwnage on the internets, except maybe to someone who's easily impressed. I have to say my comment about Mitt Romney being someone who shouldn't be counted out withstood the test of time pretty well.
Whos turn is it to wake Father Fox ;)
Lem said...
Whos turn is it to wake Father Fox ;)
Chickenlittle is here.
Fox in the henhouse?
Do you read Marc Barnes regularly, Professor? He is one sharp cookie, and a very inspiring representation of the rising generation of Catholics. Whip-smart, orthodox, positive, in love with his Savior and with his Church. Good stuff. In my biased opinion, of course.
Andy is not dead. He is now Karl Langerfield.
Well you know what they say about honey bears
When you shave off all their baby hair
No, I do not know that they say about honey bears. hang on
[honey bears shave baby]
Ah. You have a hairy minded pink bare bear. Hahahaha.
What does it mean?
As far as I'm concerned Warhol is someone so far off the charts that it's pointless to speculate about him.
His Catholicism was important to him -- he attended mass regularly, even though he was living in the middle of the Factory mad house he had created. But what his religion ultimately meant to him, I have no idea.
I sure wouldn't conclude that Warhol's Catholicism was why he didn't have full sexual experiences.
What most non-Catholics fail to appreciate, especially gays with chips on theirs shoulders about the Catholic Church, is that the Church is down on all sexual activity outside of marriage, and even within marriage there are conditions.
[It means]
Swoop, Swoop
oh baby,
Rock Rock
Swoop, Swoop, Rock, Rock
There is a war brewing between the very liberal ECLA and the conservative Archdiocese of St Paul-Minneapolis. ELCA is very pro-gay marriage (not sure about polygamy), while the local Archbishop is very pro-traditional marriage.
Aw, I love that song, and both albums where it appears, so much.
Who knew that Bill Cullen was a cripple? I didn't know, Mel Brooks didn't know.
I don't think Warhol was asexual, I think he was in terror of touching an other or being touched. Just a vibe he gave off. The total lack of affect.
10/14/12 8:52 PM
Yep. (From what I have read, Lawrence Olivier, although nominally bisexual, also had a fundamental aversion to being touched (off-stage or screen). Nobody claims Olivier was a wonderful lover, although he was certainly a great actor. I think Warhol was a voyeur. He would watch, and film, orgies at the Factory. And then he would go off to Mass on Sunday morning.
A pure heart? Nah, I don't think so.
I have known plenty of gay men who completely disregarded the Church's teachings on sodomy, but were still attached to the Church's (traditional)style - the art, the pomp, the rosary beads, and even (on a camp level) the tacky holy cards and candles.
There is certainly a high art aspect of the Catholic Church (the great cathedrals of Europe, Giotto, Michelanglo's Pieta) and a low art aspect as well (tacky holy cards and paintings, such as the Jesus portrait I had hanging in my bedroom thoughout my childhood - the eyes followed you everywhere.) I have always thought that Catholic art in America would be much better if the Italians, rather than the Irish, had emigrated to America first and set the tone for American Catholicism. Great artists of history: how many did the Irish produce? (I'm obviously talking about the visual arts, not the written word.) How many did the Italians produce? End of discussion.
Great artists of history: how many did the Irish produce? (I'm obviously talking about the visual arts, not the written word.)
So you are purposely excluding Oscar Wilde?
Wilde -- who, unlike Warhol, was very much outgoing in sexual activity and yet, one can clearly see the Catholic themes in his works, not to mention his repeated flirtations with the Church before finally converting on his death bed.
Maybe it's because he was ugly and soulless. He worshiped the superficial and beauty - and he did not have the latter.
somefeller said...
Always declare victory, edutcher! That's the way to be convincing..
Hardly, that's his fetish, but, when Kaspersky runs, it takes over the system for 6 hours.
As I say, some phony folksy is still smarting from Saturday night, so we have a display of his accustomed petulance.
And, yes, I'm not the only one here that's noticed the sockpuppetry.
ricpic has it right...Warhol may or may not have been a virgin, (his own diary entry notwithstanding...this may have been self-directed irony), but I doubt his Catholicism had anything to do with his celibacy, to the greater or lesser degree he was celibate.
He was apparently self-conscious about himself physically, and presumably uncomfortable with the intimacy that even casual sexual encounters require. He supposedly had relationships in his life, although whether they included sexual activity or not I don't know.
Exiled--interesting point. The Irish never had a filthy rich merchant class to support artists. And it's so dark and clammy there. Wonderful place to produce literature, as the Irish have way out of proportion to their population, but probably terrible for painting and sculpture compared to all that Mediterranean sun.
It is interesting to me that sexual self control is so controversial and comment worthy.
Trey
"So you are purposely excluding Oscar Wilde?"
No, I'm not. Wilde's medium was the written (and spoken) word. As I said, the Irish have produced many top notch writers, but no great painters or sculptors. Erika gives good reasons for why that was the case.
It's striking how many British authors converted to Catholicism from the 1890's all the way up until Vatican II - not only Wilde, but Chesterton, Siegfried Sassoon, Edith Sitwell, Waugh, Muggeridge, and Muriel Spark (and those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head). While I don't doubt that genuine faith motivated them, the rituals of the old Latin Mass evidently had a very strong aesthetic appeal as well. It's sometimes hard to grasp that in a post-Vatican II suburban Catholic church, with felt banners and (generally) bad music.
..but I doubt his Catholicism had anything to do with his celibacy..
On what do you base this statement? Did you have a conversation with Warhol about it, or are you just projecting your own belief on to him?
It is a puzzle that some find it improbable that Warhol held dear his religious beliefs and adhered to them.
Or that doing so isn't comment worthy.
Maybe it's because he was ugly and soulless. He worshiped the superficial and beauty - and he did not have the latter.
Quite the opposite. He had inner beauty, apparently. And "ugly and soulless" is re reflection of your comment, not Warhol's life.
"On what do you base this statement? Did you have a conversation with Warhol about it, or are you just projecting your own belief on to him?"
I infer it from the debauchery of those whom he surrounded himself with in his days of most notoriety in the 60s. If he was so morally prim and proper as a result of his religious faith, I doubt he would have been comfortable, much less have relished, the ongoing spectacle of drug use and sexual licentiousness going on around him.
The distinction between a homosexual person, a homosexual act, and homosexuality is an important one. Traditionally, Christianity -- all branches, not just Catholicism as far as I know -- have only considered the act to be immoral. I wrote about this on my blog in response to claims that homophobia is equivalent to racism (here).
I think Warhol was a voyeur. He would watch, and film, orgies at the Factory. And then he would go off to Mass on Sunday morning.
Yeesh. I've never heard that.
why is straight sex never referred to as "performing heterosexual acts"?
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