Ryan Lizza, quoting a "Democrat deeply familiar with the relationship" between Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, who was refuting the common belief that mutual dislike originated with Clinton's unhappiness over the 2008 primary.
Now, Obama needs Clinton:
Jim Messina, the deputy chief of staff, moved to Chicago to manage the campaign, and he took charge of the Clinton account.... Clinton, Messina told me, is one of the few people who can make the case for Obama among voters who still haven’t made up their minds....But does Clinton need Obama?
His associates take it as a given that he would like nothing more than to see his wife become President. Hillary Clinton will step down as Secretary of State after the campaign and begin the process of deciding whether she will run in 2016. By some measures, a defeat for Obama in November would leave Hillary the undisputed leader of her party and propel her toward the Oval Office that much faster.Meanwhile, Bill Clinton will take the stage in prime time at the convention, claiming the spot that would traditionally go to the vice presidential candidate, with Biden shunted elsewhere.
Now, liking is a key concept in connection with Obama. He's always told he's so likeable. And we remember Hillary, back in '08, being needled about being less likeable than Obama and Obama stealing the spotlight to say "You're likeable enough" right after she'd done a nice delivery of the quip "That hurts my feelings." He's just so likeable.
Ah... but who does he like?
Posts
148 comments:
The first day at the HQ I said if I could meet with the key players working on the re-election, I was told that no one meets with David A. and David P. and Jim M. We were told that POTUS and their key players are the brain trust. We are the cog. We are being paid to help in the re-election. We would get calls from staffers on the Hill asking for information about key contacts (such as funds to pay off Hillary's 2008 debt), but we could not contact anyone. In fact, the HQ is quite dysfunctional environment. Unless, you view the POTUS in a high figure, you can be damaged. I laughed and found Eastwood speech to be excellent - (empty chair metaphor), I made many angry. Ultimately, I left to Tampa.
I don't know who he likes but he's head over heels in love with himself . . .
"Obama doesn't really like very many people..."
Whoever suggested that he did?
To begin with, he doesn't much like the American people.
He is like most liberals, he likes mankind but not man. Liberals want to do great things for the people not because they like them but because they, the liberals, are just so good.
No mistake for Hillary to be literally on the opposite side of the planet from the DNC. She doesn't give a flying Frito if BHO gets reelected. She'll have a nice working vacation in the South Sea, then get to work on 2016.
Forget about Obama - who the devil says Clinton is so "likeable?" This man never even came close to winning even a simply majority of the electorate, for heaven's sake. Had it not been for Ross Perot, he would never have won at all.
You can never, ever, forget the skewed view presented by the media. This media is too chicken to attack Obama or riddicule his many stupid gaffes, for fear of appearing racist. I've not seen evidence that it, as a body, actually likes him, though. They think him "cool", because left wing doctrine preaches that blacks are cool and whites are boring. But there's no genuine like for him. By contrast, they positively love Clinton. It is very easy for them to simply ignore the actual MAJORITY of the country, who never voted for Clinton, in proclaiming him "beloved." Not being actively despised (like Carter) does not translate into beloved.
[And, of course, that's just for Bubba. As Hilary Clinton would have found out had she won the democrat nomination, even those who voted for Bill would not necessarily vote for her. Not even close, actually.]
Clinton would love to show the world what he really thinks of Obama but he has to be the good loyal Dem even as he surreptitiously does what he can to make sure Obama doesn't get reelected and diluting the value of his being the only Dem president since FDR to be elected to two terms in office and also to help Hillery chance at the presidency in 2016.
interestingly, Obama doesn't even like Dem Candidates. thus far
- not raising money
- not sharing DNC cash
- Obama campaign staff dont support down ballot candidates
- Obama doesn't make joint appearance or mention the other dems in the room are also running, yet:
his campaign is premised on a second term with a more friendly Congress?
certainly not the GOP
certainly not the smaller Dem caucus after his lack of assistance
First, the DNC is paying off Willie's (and maybe Hilla's) campaign debt, so he has to behave, no matter how much he thinks Barry should be bringing him his coffee.
Unless, of course, it's just a slip of the tongue...
Using Willie only conjures up the faux peace and prosperity of the 90s.
Second, we know Choom doesn't like women and when have we seen any of his male friends?
Ever?
We know Jimmy Baker and Rummy and Condi are friends of the Bushes; and Don Tyson and the Waltons are FOBs, along with any woman with peanut butter legs.
But where are Zero's friends?
Third, the likeability thing has been melting like the gender gap, according to Gallup
"Second, we know Choom doesn't like women and when have we seen any of his male friends?"
Apparently he doesn't like to play golf with women though I'm sure he is very happy that an elite few women can now join the Augusta golf club.
But where are Zero's friends?
Valerie?
certainly not Rahm
or either Daley Bro
dreams said...
Second, we know Choom doesn't like women and when have we seen any of his male friends?
Apparently he doesn't like to play golf with women though I'm sure he is very happy that an elite few women can now join the Augusta golf club.
I only think 1 woman has been invited to play round ball with him, too, and she wasn't made very welcome IIRC.
So, let's see. We've got a guy who's Dad dumped him & never saw him again after infancy.
Whose Mom shunted him off to GrandMa & GrandPa in late childhood so she could have her fantasy life on the other side of the world from him.
And they say this guy has issues with attachment & bonding?
Golly-gee, I wonder why that might be?
But, remember, Mitt Romney is the guy who cannot associate with normal people.
Mitt, who provided a guy he barely knew Christmas gifts, helped a 14 year old boy draw up a will as he asked, shut down an investment firm to find a missing girl, has ministered people in his congregation for many years --- he's robotic and not empathetic.
Of course. Makes total sense.
Good question, and you're more ikely to get a good answer if you compare O to others formerly in his spot. For example, who did JFK like, or FDR? The self-absorbed personality has some trouble being interested enough in others to form those kinds of bonds beyond a small circle of intimates.
I don't think O is quite as self-absobed as Kennedy or Roosevelt, though. Both of them had trouble with the concept of intimates, and mostly betrayed the ones they had. No one suggests that of O. But being self-absorbed, O is likely to like those who reflect the attention (the likeability) back on The One.
So, Michelle, watch your step.
I'm just astounded that a President who was impeached for lying under oath, who was disbarred from appearing in front of the SCOTUS, who pardoned Marc Rich for a quid pro quo, instead of being driven from public life is now needed by the current POTUS in order to win votes.
The Chicago way and the American way don't seem to differ much these days.
I'm just astounded that a President who was impeached for lying under oath, who was disbarred from appearing in front of the SCOTUS, who pardoned Marc Rich for a quid pro quo, instead of being driven from public life is now needed by the current POTUS in order to win votes.
The Chicago way and the American way don't seem to differ much these days.
edutcher said...
Apparently he doesn't like to play golf with women though I'm sure he is very happy that an elite few women can now join the Augusta golf club.
nor can they get equal pay for equal work in the WH
According to the 2011 annual report on White House staff, female employees earned a median annual salary of $60,000, which was about 18 percent less than the median salary for male employees ($71,000).
rcocean said...
I'm just astounded that a President who was impeached for lying under oath, who was disbarred from appearing in front of the SCOTUS, who pardoned Marc Rich for a quid pro quo, instead of being driven from public life is now needed by the current POTUS in order to win votes.
what if I told you the alternative was Jimmie 'Malaise' Carter?
"Obama doesn’t really like very many people."
"And he likes to talk about sports. But other than that he just doesn’t like very many people. Unfortunately, it extends to people who used to have his job."
I read that last night, and - if it had been spoken about almost anyone else - I would've respected it.
I do wonder though, if - since he's in the bubble - he just doesn't have anyone interesting to talk to?
He seems to like Bush more than Clinton, which is funny since he uses him as a crutch, but that's probably because - along with being a genuinely nice guy - Bush doesn't complain.
Clinton's a pussy.
@edutcher
You said--"Willie only conjures up the faux peace and prosperity of the 90s."
Willie only conjures up the piece'S he used to get on the side, anD the faux prosperity.
FIFY
So who does Obama like?
I'm tempted to say this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5vz6iwV38U
Except POTUS is not going to "take a look at himself and then make a change." Whenever Obama talks about change, he's always looking at US.
I didn't watch any of the RNC convention. I hadn't planned on watching the DNC convention, either. But I think I will watch Clinton's speech. I'm interested to see what he does with it. My prediction: He'll use it as a vehicle to celebrate the Democratic Party while indirectly slapping Obama in the face. He'll say something like, "2008 was a perfect illustration of the Democratic Party's great strength, which is its diversity. Who else would have the opportunity to choose between a black and a cooter?" But then he'll suggest our politics have become too divisive and too polarized. He'll chide both Republicans and Democrats, and say the party needs to move in a direction of moderation and compromise--less race baiting and gender pandering. In short, he'll be stumping for those moderate Democratic house/senate candidates that Obama has abandoned while making Obama seem more radical and Romney less so. I think nothing makes Clinton salivate more than a final fuck-you to Obama.
But I could be wrong. Clinton could be a political dumbshit and just tow the party line.
"he likes to talk about sports"
I hear he goes to Kaminsky Park to watch the Cubs whenever he can.
Touche, Carn, touche.
rcocean said...
I'm just astounded that a President who was impeached for lying under oath, who was disbarred from appearing in front of the SCOTUS, who pardoned Marc Rich for a quid pro quo, instead of being driven from public life is now needed by the current POTUS in order to win votes.
The Chicago way and the American way don't seem to differ much these days.
I think you confuse the American way with the democrat Way.
I think America's Politico writes his comments before he sees the post. He always has a lengthy comment at the top of the thread.
AP has the whole riddle-mystery-enigma thing working for him.
An even better theme song for the President
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYYVJnaoAww
If you listen to the voice of Obama in his chip on the shoulder "You didn't build that" speech it's the voice of a smart aleck. Who likes a smart aleck? No one I've ever known. And yet we're told ad nauseum that Obama's likable. I don't buy it. And furthermore all those that volunteer that he's likable to them when polled are essential terrorized into that assertion. "Oh sure, sure, the guys likable" *whew, hope that's enough not to be labeled a you know what.* It's a terror campaign plain and simple and the reality of Obama's unlikability will only come out in the privacy of the polling booth on November 7.
From the article:
"There was a price for Clinton’s general involvement. At the end of 2011, Hillary Clinton still had a quarter of a million dollars in campaign debt left from 2008. Obama had agreed to retire it, in order to secure her endorsement after the primary contest ended; he had to make good on that promise."
I'm offended by the implication that the Clinton's could be bought for 250K.
It was 25 million
"Obama doesn't really like very many people"
The feeling is mutual.
Don't buy AP's ersatz pizza!
"Obama doesn't really like very many people"
Awww. Althouse's love is unrequited.
@ dreams Clinton would love to show the world what he really thinks of Obama
You mean he is going to do an empty chair improv in Charlotte?
What fun!
It's interesting that the author of the article, Ryan Lizza, almost certainly knew of the 25 million dollar figure from 2008 but chose to use the 250k figure from the end of 2011.
Why would he do that?
One thing that Clinton did and ought to get credit for was magically being friends with the first Bush, pretty much the second one, too, once Clinton wasn't president anymore.
The possibility of Hillary running for President changes things a bit, I suppose, because in anything related to that Clinton is still "in" politics.
But other than that he did seem to be ready to take up the post of "former president above it all" when he finished his term.
While we're beating up on him, let's note forget an early chapter in Barry's involvement with subprime mortgages.
Synova said...
One thing that Clinton did and ought to get credit for was magically being friends with the first Bush, pretty much the second one, too, once Clinton wasn't president anymore.
Largely, because they took pity on him and worked to rehabilitate his image (remember how he showed up at Ground Zero, hugging any woman unfortunate enough to cross his path?).
Without them, the country would still be very glad he's gone.
It was 25 million
Just to demonstrate my naiveté, someone explain to me how politicians (either party) can run up debts in the multiple millions and then get away with paying them off in a trickle over several years?
My conclusion long ago is that there is a corrupt quid pro quo involved for the creditors. Why else would they play along with the game...and they DO know the game?
Oh, never mind...wanders off muttering... :-(
Obama doesn't really like very many people
He clearly hates America.
"Ah... but who does he like?"
Too easy. Himself, of course.
"You mean he is going to do an empty chair improv in Charlotte?"
He will definitely try to outshine Obama but he would try to do that anyway because he just help himself.
Miss me yet?
I hope he lectures on the Third Way centrism that Obama refuses to engage in (it requires having a learning curve).
I hope he cracks a joke about being the real first black president.
I hope he dons ray-bans and plays the sax.
I hope he crows about all his achievements like DADT and DOMA and NAFTA and Welfare Reform.
I would do anything to have Bill Clinton back in the White House.
Okay, not ... anything.
He could just stand there with his sweet Bubba grin and let the crowd cheer wildly until his time expires. He wouldn't have to say a word.
Two things I found interesting in Ann's linked article:
*Clinton advised against calling Romney a 'flip-flopper'; he said it didn't work against him (Clinton), and undecideds think it applies to someone who can do the right thing rather than the most partisan thing. And lo, I haven't noticed any 'Romney is a flip-flopper' ads from Camp Barry. Looks like advice taken.
*Bill's interest in Hillary being Sec. of State was really self-serving. It reaped big rewards for his foundation. I never thought Bill cared about Hillary's career aspirations because of his feminist sympathies, but casting her success in light of how it serves him now makes perfect sense.
Obama has always struck me not as "cool" but cold. He displays very little warmth at all, unlike say Clinton who comes across like a good old boy. Obama is stiff and professorial, and not at all charismatic.
Why people say he was great with the soaring rhetoric has always been beyond me. It was nothing but the most treacly platitudes and not even spoken that well. Dems were looking for someone to pin their hopes on, and as such they pumped him up into that which inabited their hopes and dreams. But there is nothing there. I think a lot of the buyers remorse comes from that.
The feeling of being had by such a lightweight nonentity. And those less enamored with him realize not only that he let them down with his lies, but that he never really had the traits that they said he did to begin with. The golden boy was never particularly golden at all.
He's a false idol. Not that smart, not a good speaker, no known accomplishments, and not even a particularly gifted politician. No positive record to speak of.
He clearly hates America.
Just you, Jaytard. Just you.
"I'm sure he is very happy that an elite few women can now join the Augusta golf club."
Yes, I expect Obama to be playing Condi Rice any day now.
I've spoken to 3 libs within the past 3 days who are wetting themselves with excitement over the prospect of The One's Great Speech. No, not Barry's speech, Billy Jeff's. Slick is gonna save us! The country will fall in love once again with the Great Used Car Salesman from Arkansas and the donks will march to victory!
I gently reminded them that Clinton is not on the ticket.
Gary Rosen said..."he likes to talk about sports"
I hear he goes to Kaminsky Park to watch the Cubs whenever he can.
Hah.
Well played, right from the top of the key. You scored a touchdown with that one.
"Well played, right from the top of the key. You scored a touchdown with that one."
It was a hanging curve, in front of the goalie's crease.
I had a black female professor at the University of Alabama, School of Commerce and Business Administration, in the mid-70s. She had been born in Alabama but left for Chicago to get away from discrimination and lack of opportunities. She lived in Chicago for several years and found there was a different kind of discrimination there. She came back to Alabama in the early 70s. She said that in the North, people claim to love the Negro race, but they don't like any of us. Down South, she said, white people say they don't like blacks, but they love and respect all the ones they know. She said she'd rather live in the South.
Obama seems like he is at home in Chicago, not liking much of anybody.
ken in SC: no, I don't think the Obamas will return to Chicago if he loses. That city served his purposes once - not any longer.
Besides, you can't golf in Chicago in December.
He'll move to Hawaii.
Exile, I think you may be right. There is a lot of anti-white sentiment in Hawaii. He would feel at home there--for more than one reason.
It could be his next career: King of Hawaii. Or Kenya.
Not being a birther. I don't know what their election laws are; if they don't require natural born, why not Obama?
*whew, hope that's enough not to be labeled a you know what.*
You mean a RAAAAACIST!!!!!??
No, not enough.
Wandering marbled halls bedecked in a sarong, cigarette held between two slender fingers, in the other hand, a book of Kahlil Gibran poetry--who shall befriend this solitary soul, the depths of which no man may fathom?
Poster DrMaxHathaway replied to an American Thinker piece with a most concise description of Obama's psyche.
Valerie Jarrett is obviously the replacement for Obama's brain-dead mother --- a voice of constant admiration and a guardian against criticism and reality, for example the reality-testing a normal father or father figure would provide . She not only confirms that Obama is a paranoid delusional narcissist who cannot stand up to any critical evaluation of who he is and what he has done. She is also in charge of continuously inflating the Bubble of unreality in which Obama lives.
Valerie and Michelle are the Obama cheerleaders whose job it is to continually remind B-Rock that (a) the critics are wrong and/or (b) they are unfairly judging him because of his race. Forget that Obama has no experience of success at anything other than walking through doors others opened for him (like a little girl) and his handlers getting him elected. He's a little boy beauty contestant all painted up and made over with lies, a perpetual Pinocchio lying-machine on masquerade.
Like many young boys who grew up poisoned by the unearned praise of their psychopathic (and often single) mothers, and never subject to the objective demands of a real father, Obama is not only psychologically addicted to this type of worship, he is completely dependent on it. Their worship provides the thick, continuous smoke screen that keeps him from ever seeing himself and having to face the reality in the mirror --- the complete and total fraud that he has been since his mother was pimped out to pedophile Frank Marshall Davis in a Rosemary's Baby pact with the devil.
I wonder where all the MSM's dime store psychologists are that could diagnose Nixon's and Reagan's paranoia but can't weigh in on Obama's abandonment issues with his estranged father and absentee mother. His friendless, loner personality certainly explains his rocky relations with the surving democrats in congress and non existent relations with the republicans. Hmm interesting don't you think?
Are Republican feelings hurt again? This time because Obama doesn't like them?
It has been obvious to me there are two topics that get Obama really animated.
One is sports - he fancies himself some kind of expert but he just another Joe Sixpack when it come sto his sports insight.
The other topic is class warfare- he is adamant that successful people ain't that smart and don't work that hard! So he is resentful and disdainful of other's success and wealth. Except for those like Obama [I'm Lebron baby!]
I just want to stop by and call phx a douchebag. The best part is how when phx first started commenting here, he styled himself as a neutral voice, above the fray.
And then got mad when people called his sorry ass out as a garden-variety tool of the left.
Okay. Carry on.
What's wrong with not liking very many people? I prefer the company of my dog to about 98% of my clients!
Also, at the end of the day, Bill Clinton is a good man and a better politician. We can all see what's in it for him to fuck Obama over in a sophisticated way. The better question is: what was in it for Obama to ask Clinton to speak?
Are the internals of the polling that bad that Obama needs to take such a risk? If not, what gives? It is obviously many of us Althouse hausers who are not seeing something obvious if Clinton is to give a pro-Obama speech.
ken in SC,
Black comedian Dick Gregory had a joke, "In the South they don't care how close you get as long as you don't get too big. In the North they don't care how big you get as long as you don't get too close".
Great Gregory line.
He doesn't like to talk about sports.
He wants to avoid any conversation which might involve taking a genuine personal (as opposed to political) interest in another human. Sports is the perfect vehicle for this.
If you can find it, look TV special early in his term about Air Force One. They show O's first boarding of the plane as President. He is greeted by a senior member of the service staff, an older black man. The gentleman is obviously pleased and proud to have President Obama on board. He is friendly yet proper. It is presented as a poignant moment, the black staffer and the first black President. Obama proceeds to engage the man in one of the most awkward conversations imaginable. Much of it about sports.
A really classy move would have been to invite this man--a long term Air Force One staffer--for a private moment with the President. No way.
I assume that O is different with is family. I hope so.
The choice of Joe Biden, a man Obama holds in utter contempt, to be the Vice President shows what the President thinks of America.
Not only did he prove that he can be elected despite having a complete nonentity as a running mate (whereas Sarah Palin was made out to be an albatross around the neck of John McCain), but he cares so little about the country that he will inflict Joe Biden upon us in case he, Obama, dies in office. People joke that this is a life insurance policy for the President, but really it's a big "fuck you."
This is like finding the least competent person possible to act as executor for your estate- and telling your heirs beforehand. Obama is making it clear that he does not care what happens to the country if he dies, because he won't be around anyway.
That's the significance of Joe Biden, a joke of a Presidential candidate and a Senator from a tiny state that most people couldn't find on a map.
Shoes have souls? Do they have an afterlife? Perhaps a purgatory where they sit on shelves, waiting to be worn? Purge-less Shoe Source?
He wants to avoid any conversation which might involve taking a genuine personal (as opposed to political) interest in another human.
Another person not getting his needs fulfilled by Obama.
Some of you guys on the right are awfully needy.
Obama is making it clear that he does not care what happens to the country if he dies, because he won't be around anyway.
Does he strike you as the kind of guy who contemplates his mortality?
No, I don't think he does.
I spend a lot of time worrying about what would happen to my family if I have a car accident or if someone decides to mug me for my $20 in change.
I don't understand how someone who is responsible for the entire country would entrust the Presidency to... Joe Biden... when so many other perfectly competent people are available. Obviously there is some other consideration at work.
Shouldn't that bother us more than it does?
Hah! Good point!
It is obviously many of us Althouse hausers who are not seeing something obvious if Clinton is to give a pro-Obama speech.
Such as, principle, perhaps? An interest in Democratic party goals, including advancing the interests of the middle class and an economy built on something other than vapors?
Oh, that's right. The Althausians prove every day just how many cynical pricks there are who lack for any principles, hate their fellow man and see the concerns of the middle class as nothing more than a ploy for them to exploit.
Carry on.
Althouse commenters aren't middle class?
Are they lower class? Upper class? Which are they?
...and according to multiple newspaper comment boards. Most people don't like Obama.
With regard to the insignificance of Delaware, in his book "Life on the Mississippi" Mark Twain reveals his belief that the state is in the Mississippi's watershed.
Beyond himself, Michelle, and the daughters, probably Valerie Jarrett.
The Clintons are too dangerous to like.
Regardless of where they find themselves, they aren't advocating for the middle class, John. It is possible for someone to advocate against his own interests, if he's ignorant enough.
In case it needs repeating, here's what 32 years of GOP rule have done for the middle class.
Pretty awesome, huh?
So, if people are too stupid to know what's good for them, what's the value of having elections?
Poor Ritmo. Goofy, bombastic propaganda feel out of favor when Goebbels and Mussolini met their respective demises.
You'd have fit right in back in those days, dude. Born under a bad sign, though, huh?
You could still maybe catch on in North Korea or with the Taliban, though. You could still be a star, albeit on a much smaller stage.
Keep rockin', Dribbler. You and that stalwart old conservative nemesis of yours, John Paul Stevens.
Here's another one. Awesome.
Redistributing prosperity gains upward. What a great priority for America.
Knocking out rungs on the economic ladder is a great way to make America the country with less opportunity (other than for immigrants) among Western democracies.
Nice, eh? That's really something to be proud of.
Where would you guys be if there weren't unregulated Chinese near-slave labor to compete with? That must be quite a model for you to try to best.
Even if somehow, the Germans and many others manage to avoid it, and are still better off for it.
You'd better hope that doesn't get out.
What about unregulated Mexican immigrant labor? Doesn't that follow the same logic?
So the guy hoping for a 1932 New Deal do-over is making Nazi (and Mussolini!) comparisons, references to al Qaeda and re-hashing old blog-flame wars.
Sounds about as desperate and ignorant as I'd expect. Therein lies his contempt for the very sort of voter he'll need for his sugar-daddy to win.
the Germans and many others manage to avoid it
Yes, the Germans. Brilliant! We would do so well to emulate their rich, storied history.
And, of course, China doesn't sell its products in Germany.
Romney 48
Obama 44
What about unregulated Mexican immigrant labor? Doesn't that follow the same logic?
Somehow the GOP hasn't propped up Mexico as their next enemy in an unnecessary economic war.
Not entirely illegitimately, of course. But not entirely legitimately, either.
Remember, Paul Ryan doesn't want to balance the budget until 2040, or thereabouts. It is his logic, and that of his benefactors, that we must rhetorically fight the Chinese (in domestic political fights) on their terms. Maybe it's part of the bargain.
phx:
Are Republican feelings hurt again? This time because Obama doesn't like them?
9/3/12 7:08 PM
Oh, yeah, it keeps me up nights. I really crave the approval of Commander Corpseman, the Lord of the Foodstamps.
So... China, which is a problem for our wages, IS a target of the GOP?
Mexico is not? But that's not a bad thing?
I'd love for the budget to be balanced before 2040. I'd love to see a plan to do that.
I'd love for both parties to at least commit to that.
Yes, the Germans. Brilliant! We would do so well to emulate their rich, storied history.
If you want. (Why not? It would fit in perfectly with yours [and der Fuehrer's] hatred for FDR).
But of course, I was talking about their present.
And, of course, China doesn't sell its products in Germany.
Doesn't it? Here you might actually have something intelligent to add - for once.
But the point is that Germany sees fit to produce something other than easily outsourced $8/hour call centers.
But of course the prospect of American-manufactured luxury items bothers you. It entails respect for a job other than bullshitting all day. And that would be your demise.
So, if people are too stupid to know what's good for them, what's the value of having elections?
9/3/12 8:32 PM
Ritmo asks himself this question all the time.
Poor, deluded Ritmo is apparently under the illusion that German companies have their factories in Germany, not Mexico, Slovakia, and the American South.
Whatever gets you through the day, dude. Whatever keeps you from ending it all.
I'd love for both parties to at least commit to that.
John, then ask for some honesty from the GOP. Obamacare reduces the cost of healthcare not only for middle class consumers of it, but for businesses that employ them. But Team Phoney bashes it, while figuring those reductions into their own plan. Why hate on that? Just because Obama would get the credit?
Obama would have signed onto Simpson-Bowles, had Republicans had an interest in working with him rather than shooting down his attempts to even go along with their own ideas.
They're too busy having a political struggle for their life and future to care about yours.
Poor, deluded Ritmo is apparently under the illusion that German companies have their factories in Germany, not Mexico, Slovakia, and the American South.
Whatever gets you through the day, dude. Whatever keeps you from ending it all.
German companies have somehow managed to not decimate German manual labor. Does that bother you?
Would acknowledging that and learning from that somehow destroy you?
Just a minute ago you were talking about how Germany had nothing to offer other than Nazi propaganda. Now you're saying that they follow the Romney approach to the political economy and outsource everything.
Which pretzel will you tie yourself into next? Don't all those contortions cut off the circulation to your brain at some point?
Is that the reason for your violent allusions?
At least your not making sexual references to people you call "Son", this time.
I think you're a pretty sick person.
American pizza, at your fingertips. dominos.com.
I worked for one of these amazing unionized jobs, the Post Office, and I'd much rather work for a private company delivering pizzas. Almost the same pay, better working conditions, more freedom.
I don't understand all the worship for factory jobs from people who have never had one, when all the evidence is that people unionized those jobs because they sucked.
I get that more pay>less pay, but my experience in many, many awful "service" jobs is that the pay is better and the work is easier. I make more than the factory workers who assembled my Toyota (and thanks, btw, you did a great job!)
There's a real paradox when I read so many people who've never been near a factory floor will sing the praises of a system that Marx and others condemned as utterly dehumanizing. And it is! I hated sorting mail... for hours... until my back hurt. I'd take advil before going to work.
I don't worship factory jobs, John. And yet I somehow understand that they're necessary for a healthy economy.
Anyway, you can complain about the type of labor. I'm sure some service jobs are similarly soul-sucking. And so are many cubicle jobs. The point is the mission of the company and whether they're invested in it in a way that goes beyond short-term interest.
This guy has a good book on it. Some manual laborers own their own businesses. Even your working-class hero, Joe the Plumber, fantasized about doing this -- before Fox found that image of him more profitable than he'd have found the reality of his actually making that happen.
Unionization happened because of exploitation by owners. It's not because laborers intrinsically hated what they do. You may have. But you are an example of one, not an entire demographic.
It's a bit pompous to pretend otherwise.
"Unionization happened because of exploitation by owners."
And yet the union flagships today are the public employee unions. Who are the "owners", ritmo?
And yet the union flagships today are the public employee unions. Who are the "owners", ritmo?
You are an unusual guy, Gary. For someone repeatedly attacked by the anti-Semitic Althouse blog pet, C-Fudd, you seem to use his disease to justify defensive right-wing fantasies completely unrelated to economics.
And right-wingers are nothing if not opportunistically complaining that the government ruins everything. So, somehow, I could see the government department also in need of a watchdog and advocate for how it treats its employees, rather than given the ability to run their interests into the ground the same way your right-wingers complain that they'd do to the citizens it represents.
Are employees of the government immune to the interests and needs of any other worker? Should government workplaces be special places of safe harbor for abuse, where maltreatment is somehow something the voters should find normative?
I understand you think you can use this as a wedge issue. Yes, the government employees people - who aren't elected! What a shock! But most taxpayers don't care to see teachers, firefighters and cops abused by their employer any more than they'd wish that upon themselves.
That's not too hard to understand, but this thinnest of divisive reeds is obviously the Republicans' last policy stand. It worked to some degree in Wisconsin. I'd expect it not to work in actual cities, though. You know, the big places where most of our population actually lives, works, and sees its neighbors - including those occupied by the community - as human and contributing to their mutual benefit, rather than as some potential adversary ready to steal, mooch or worse.
Don't buy AP's ersatz pizza!
Maybe i'll give it a try — he seems like a an industrious hard-working entrepreneur who is risking his fortunes as a K-street consultant to sell his beloved pizza.
If I'm ever in "Tampa," that is.
Unionization happened because of exploitation by owners.
I have no problem with private unions.
Public ones, well, FDR and I are on the same page.
And anyway, I'm open-minded on whether public sector employees need the type of representation that you've decimated in the private sector. But I'm not prepared to see the owner as somehow more intrinsically virtuous, (and yet not too self-sufficient to need excessive government patronage), than the worker.
Good for you and FDR, EMD.
Just wondering why you think the government would treat its workers any more virtuously than it would the citizens/taxpayers it's supposed to represent.
It's an interesting, if strange, assumption.
Oh well. At least you're not trying to re-litigate all things related to FDR while labeling your adversaries "Nazis!", as some here would do.
I don't see Obama as either very likable or liking very many people. I see him as quite the cold fish.
I always got the vibe that GWB did like people, and was likable in turn. And Slick Willie has a certain charisma that makes people he meet think that they are the center of his universe. GHWB and Ford were likable enough, and Reagan was both liked and likable. Carter, not so much, and neither was Nixon. Bright, but paranoid.
The thing that is beyond me is the idea that Romney is the cold one this time. While Mormon nice, I think that I would like the man, like I would all the presidents between Reagan and George W. Bush, inclusive. Not Obama. Cold, arrogant, and condescending.
I don't see Obama as either very likable or liking very many people. I see him as quite the cold fish.
Bruce Hayden seems to be the latest commenter to agree with the idea that likeability has to do with how much effort you put into indulging and coddling someone's prejudices, misconceptions, ignorance, etc.
Liking people is no excuse for outsourcing your own competence to their need to feel important.
Liking people is no excuse for outsourcing your own competence to their need to feel important.
Utter gibberish. The best part about Ritmo is that he thinks he makes good arguments. Like, for example, these words strung together.
"You know, the big places where most of our population actually lives, works..."
Actually, most of our population - the voting population, that is - lives in the suburbs and exurbs. Republicans never carry major cities in elections and yet they manage to win elections anyway. Walker did not carry Milwaukee or Madison and still won. Romney will not win Philadelphia. He still has a shot at winning PA if he can tip the balance in 4 suburban counties.
Your focus on urban areas blinds you to what goes on outside city limits.
I just like the word "outsource". It describes everything about Machos' sugar-daddy candidate so well. I could have said, "trading your own competence for their need to feel important," but I used outsource. It's an important word in this election season.
For instance, it's a word that can explain Romney's lack of personality more charitably. Perhaps he's decided that others can supply the personality that he lacks.
Perhaps Machos has outsourced any humanity or morality (i.e. he allows others to display it when he fails to do so). That's more generous than suggesting that he decided he doesn't need any, or worse, never had any to begin with.
Of course, I never ruled out those possibilities either. Just prefer not to remind others of how much of an evil scumbag this pauper in king's clothing might happen to be.
Machos, did your ne'er do well parents outsource their chances of financial success to you?
Oh, come on. Obama not only likes someone but worships him.
Obama prays standing in front of the mirror.
Romney will not win Philadelphia.
Thank God for that. Mighty symbolic, given what happened there a couple of centuries ago.
He still has a shot at winning PA if he can tip the balance in 4 suburban counties.
Awwww... really? You're not going to second Mike Turzai's comment? He came up with a different calculus on that.
Your focus on urban areas blinds you to what goes on outside city limits.
I'm fully aware of the dull blandness that occurs in those places too removed from both the economically driven human networks of cities and the natural beauty of the countryside. I just think the experience they offer isn't as effective or valuable as the lessons on policy that rural or urban living provides.
"Obama doesn’t really like very many people."
But Obama likes dogs -- charcoal-grilled with a soy glaze and a papaya-and-chilis garnish.
#ObamaEatsDogs
I'll never get back the two or three minutes it took to read this thread, but I did notice that not a single person, including the usual liberal trolls, could mention anyone Obama likes with the exception of himself, his family, and maybe Valerie Jarrett.
Yow!
creeley23 Seriously. who could do the same with George Bush? Or Bob Dylan? Or Hillary Clinton? Or just about anyone.
Is that supposed to be an insight on your part? You can do better, bra.
Service jobs aren't soul-sucking in themselves.
What's bad about them is what other people think about you doing them. You work there? Can't you do better with a college degree?
It's like riding a moped.
I've had so much pressure to get a "real job," yet those jobs are much worse- worse pay, worse hours, more monotonous, and worse co-workers. I've had two office jobs and they were awful (and paid less). But I got to wear a button-down shirt and act educated...
Or, I can wear my blue uniform and actually make money.
What I realized is that it does not matter what other people think of my job if that job pays the bills and if I like doing it. This sounds trite, but it's important. Society's views of the worth of a job weigh heavily on people. People choose jobs based on status as much as on pay.
Unions are as much about respect as wages and benefits. People respect factory workers now. That's because unions made factory work respectable. That's a social, rather than economic, phenomenon.
Service jobs are bad because a lot of people decided they are, and look down on and treat service workers badly. It's not necessarily because of wages or working conditions (although, man, I have some stories). It's society's collective judgement, and perhaps that needs to change.
If I know who a lying cheating politician of either party likes, then I know too damn much about them.
This is more like right-wing angst at not being liked.
Outsourcing of soul-sucking manufacturing jobs is not an issue in this election except in Ritmo's little mind.
But, for fun, what is the Obama plan to keep soul-sucking manufacturing jobs from moving to undeveloped countries or disappearing altogether?
This is going to be awesome...
People respect factory workers now. That's because unions...
Well, maybe you're right about service workers. Less so, IMO, about this, though. You may have a point, but I think factory work gets respect because Americans remember when Americans made quality products that were the envy of the world. We generally don't nowadays. Also, manufacturing is rarer now and rare things engender nostalgia. It's a scarcity thing. Ask Seven Minnows about it.
And we got there by being sold an Efficiency "War" with China. We were told that if we didn't grow their economy, they'd go to war with us. We got cheap goods and a different, and lower-wage sector of work in return, but a lack of pride. It probably wasn't worth it.
I think every country needs some manufacturing. I don't see how a country as big and as influential and as representative as ours can be that "exceptional" as to forego it.
creeley23 Seriously. who could do the same with George Bush? Or Bob Dylan? Or Hillary Clinton? Or just about anyone.
George Bush was on good terms with tons of people including all the wounded soldiers he visited on the QT.
Barack Obama threw his mentor and minister of twenty years UNDER THE BUS. Obama threw his grandmother UNDER THE BUS. Rahm Emmanuel is back in Chicago. The Clintons and Obama may do an acceptable kabuki that they are all palsy-walsy but tell me that they really are.
Who else is there?
Bob Dylan is Bob Dylan and shouldn't be a model with regard to long term relationships. I assume this part of why he is on The Neverending Tour.
Not sure about Hillary, but look at JFK or LBJ in comparison. Lots and lots of family, friends, advisers, etc.
Obama is the most personally isolated president in modern times I can think of.
You guys clutching your Republican pearls. "Obama doesn't like people!"
Take comfort in a just Lord.
My little mind doesn't have the capacity for imaginative fact-inventing that exists in the factory of Seven Minnows mind. So for the scoop on manufacturing, regardless of what Obama did or did not do or as yet set out to do, here's the Financial Times and others.
You see, they lack Seven Menudos' lack of expertise and reliance on the ego of his one-man think tank. But even his lil' Repuglican outlet Newsmax saw fit to reprint the story.
But let's watch Machos cheer on the promise of American decline! Go American decline! His old time Republican party used to love it so much.
Not so much anymore, apparently.
What did you clutch in 2010, phx? And what will you clutch in November? Certainly not your embarrasingly tiny nut sack.
Bob Dylan is Bob Dylan and shouldn't be a model with regard to long term relationships.
Is that ever true. That guy should never be a model for short, long or any term relationships.
For the record, Ritmo Urban Dribbler has managed to link to a press release issue about a consulting group by a consulting group as evidence that Obama will magically create manufacturing jobs in the United States.
Amazing.
Thanks for the straw man. Did I say that Obama would create manufacturing jobs?
I said manufacturing was important, that it should return, and you said as much of it as possible should be outsourced.
Take responsibility for your inability to understand what you said and what others say.
Are you aware that "should" is a different word than "will"?
My God, young pervert. You are one mean weed in the dense thicket of conservative ignorance!
Even if he was "personally isolated" to some degree, why should that bother anyone? Hyper-extroverts notwithstanding. In my mind, it's not a serious argument, it misses the point.
It assumes way, way too much. What do you think those heart-to-hearts with Jobs were like? Do you really think you know the level of isolation of this guy, or whether it has a positive or negative impact on our country?
But fuck, yeah. The guy's an introvert; feel free to riff ignorantly on all that personal stuff - as much as you like.
So the outsourcing and disappearance of manufacturing jobs in the United States is going to be an issue in this 2012 election despite your belief that neither Romney nor Obama can do anything about the outsourcing and disappearance of manufacturing jobs.
Is that your position then?
How does your belief that John Paul Stevens is an ultra-conservative figure in to your complicated calculus of meaningless issues in the 2012 election? That's the important question.
I agree with Ritmo about the decline of real wages and the link to the decline in manufacturing. That happened. It's going to get worse. A lot worse. I don't think even a radical income redistribution program will be able to stop it. If we tried, we'd just cripple our economy and hurt everyone, although we wouldn't hurt everyone equally. I think the 20th century proved this one beyond any reasonable doubt.
I like Mickey Kaus' take on what to do about it- income inequality is inevitable because of globalization and other big historical forces. However, we don't have to accept that people with more money are a higher form of life and deserve more social privileges. People care at least as much about status as they do about money.
Money can buy a lot of status, but historically in America it only goes so far. Americans are radically egalitarian in the sense that we're all free and we're all citizens. There's honor in any job as long as it's done well. That's unique in the world.
Our politicians have to pretend they understand the common man, even though they can't possibly given their backgrounds, which by definition are from the elite of this country.
But, our social equality is eroding.
From special parking spaces with chargers (essentially free gas) for people who can already afford $30,000 hybrids, to special box seats at football games, to government officials who can ignore the law, to corporate CEOs who can lose billions and still get an enormous severance package, people at the top are living in a different world.
A lot of the populist anger on the right and left is about the status the Masters of the Universe in Wall Street and in government getting away with things that would land us in jail. That's completely justified. And it's very American.
We care about fairness. That's not always economic fairness, but it's always social fairness. We're supposed to be equal before the law, and we're all a bit bothered by First Class seats on airliners.
I think this is a common thread in both big parties, the sense that fairness is eroding.
I don't worship factory jobs, John. And yet I somehow understand that they're necessary for a healthy economy.
Sure, but the economy is global, not national. You only need domestic factory jobs if you seal the borders and/or implement huge tariffs. That's the nice think about free trade; you can have a healthy national economy without having so much as a single factory job within your borders.
People like to rag on service jobs, but they seldom pause to consider that doctors, teachers, scientists, artists, and engineers are all part of the service sector.
"I just think the experience they offer isn't as effective or valuable as the lessons on policy that rural or urban living provides."
Your disdain for the suburbs doesn't matter one bit, Ritmo. Bland or not, those are the areas that have decided elections in the past and will decide the election in November. Your opinions on their "effectiveness" and "value" don't change that fact.
And, having lived in cities my entire life, I am less than impressed with the superior wisdom of urban policy. I just got back from a trip to Chicago and I heard reports from natives that even Michigan Avenue is not free from gang activity these days. Ah, yes, that strict gun control policy is really working well! And the welfare program has truly succeeding in getting rid of those South Side hellholes,no? Detroit - now there's another garden spot.
John -- What we have in this country is a social and economic malaise brought on by magnificent efficiency, amazing technological advancement, a government beset by red tape, too many people chasing jobs in a bloated white-collar clerisy, and too many people clinging to an outdated economic model which assumes that workers and management are against each other.
In that analysis, Mickey Kaus and I agree on much.
Where we disagree -- and where Kaus is wrong -- is that this needs to be an age of true entrepreneurship. Technology makes the cost of entry lower than it ever was. The problem is that too few people are starting businesses -- for a complex of social and finance reasons related to the issues I raised in the first paragraph above.
Who is starting businesses in the United States? Immigrants, the very people whose energy Kaus would like to send away.
This could be a nice dissertation, but I will stop here out of respect for your time.
even Michigan Avenue is not free from gang activity these days
Michigan Avenue is perfectly free of gang activity. There are two or three days a year -- perfectly predictable, a calculus of school holidays and the onset of good weather -- when large groups of young, poor, bored people come to the Gold Coast looking for excitement, fights, and trouble.
It's not a big deal.
So the outsourcing and disappearance of manufacturing jobs in the United States is going to be an issue in this 2012 election despite your belief that neither Romney nor Obama can do anything about the outsourcing and disappearance of manufacturing jobs.
Is that your position then?
Nope. But that's the best your feeble and politically obsessed mind can come up with.
The other comment was just more of the gratuitious bullshit that makes you the kind of arrogant and condescending asshole that you're proud of being. Yes, you think you're better than anyone you disagree with and never make a mistake. We know.
But what I really want to know is how repulsive you must be to your wife that she denies you any comfort or nooky this late. Certainly your computer must be more entertaining than slumbering on the sofa.
I'm getting tired, John. Clearly Seven Machos doesn't respect you or Revenant enough to allow your viewpoints to be discussed or debated critically.
phx wrote:
"You guys clutching your Republican pearls. "Obama doesn't like people!" "
I replied back at 8:47. But phx is so tickled by his little joke he can't resist reposting variations on the theme. And it's sooo witty: Republicans are hurt because Obama doesn't like them! Har, har, har!"
Actually, according to the article Ann posted, Obama doesn't much like anybody. Even you.
Phx is like a mentally challenged child who keeps laughing at and repeating a "Knock knock" joke for hours.
Nooky was this afternoon.
Who is starting businesses in the United States? Immigrants, the very people whose energy Kaus would like to send away.
Or, if Machos preferred, we could lower the standard of living for Americans enough to give them the sort of energy that immigrants from worse-off societies have!!!
Wonderful!
As I said, you can only understand where Machos comes from on anything once you accept that he hates most of humanity.
Was he a delegate in last week's convention? It is impossible for Romney to hide from this core influence on his character: Arrogance. Condescension.
It's the Machos' credo.
Maybe it will be made just barely visible enough to get them through one more election cycle.
Nooky was this afternoon.
Me too. And this morning.
Did she kick you out tonight then or did you just get bored?
Up out of boredom, or haunted, the way Old Ebenezer felt?
Do you know what female praying mantises do after sex?
phx: Being a classic liberal troll here, you don't have an argument, just Tu Quoques and squirrels.
What does Steve Jobs, or frankly anyone in Silicon Valley, have to do with Obama? No one is presenting Jobs as another normal guy with lots of friends who would have been great as President.
The problem is that being POTUS is an incredibly social position. Politics aside, this is a big part of why Obama is ineffective. Look at the good or great presidents. Nearly all of them played the social game well and when they got to the White House they had a network in place
Not Barack Obama. That's why he had to reach out to all those Clinton people.
I wasn't arguing that being socially isolated has a negative impact on the country, but now that you mention it, yes it does, and it does on Obama's presidency.
Some of the tension we will see in November is internal to the Democratic Party. Obama has ignored, angered and otherwise broken rapport with a large number of Democrats because he is a thin-skinned, egocentric introvert.
Good luck with that.
Poor Ritmo, who obviously did not have sex today, hates immigrants, Republicans, China, and that ultra-conservative corporate whore John Paul Stevens.
But I'm the bad guy, sitting at my computer, unlike Ritmo.
I don't hate immigrants, just believe that their efforts are best spent improving life in their own countries, and that America's best efforts spent improving conditions here. Do you disagree?
China's a totalitarian state. I suppose you find that makes for an admirable economic model. Me, not so much.
As for the rest, ho hum. And fuck you, too.
I love immigrants and I believe very strongly that immigration and moderate acculturation are vital to a successful society.
China is merely the latest awful autocratic regime that has chosen an export economy. The situation is better than unworkable Maoist communism, obviously. Its best hope is to end up like South Korea, but I predict that it will devolve into a handful of nation-states in the coming decades, one large one of which will be called China.
If you would stop with the cant and think deeply about things, Dribbler, you could come with interesting opinions instead of the silly, black-and-white propaganda you froth forth with. But that will take years and lots of serious reading and discipline. You don't have the time in this life, in all likelihood. It's too late for you.
When you box people into over-simplified positions that they don't hold, you can expect them to do the same to you.
As far as "depth" goes, when do you ever provide sources for your supposedly deep ideas? And as far as "interesting" goes, do you believe that truth and accuracy are trumped by entertainment value?
Still don't have an answer on whether you think immigrants should declare their countries lost causes and whether America is better off merely being "good enough" to entice them (not a high bar) than by improving the quality of life for current citizens, regardless of origin.
Other conservatives would question not only your own patriotism, but whether you think other countries would be better off if their citizens were similarly unpatriotic. Apparently you think the people themselves are better off that way.
I don't think patriotism is necessarily the highest value, but at some point not giving a damn about others around you leads them to question your own value to anyone.
Ultra-conservative corporate whore John Paul Stevens has already questioned my patriotism, Ritmo. You are a day late and a dollar short.
Stevens then accused me of being a swarthy Salvadoran who doesn't care sufficiently about El Salvador. When I informed him that I was born in Missouri, he muttered something about Mark Twain and Harry Truman in a rowboat and walked away singing The Battle Hymn of the Republic.
It was a strange scene.
Well I guess that was "interesting", if completely unserious and unresponsive.
How it helps improve America in 2012 relative to America in 2000 is unknown, but you're sure to get the vote of people who have a much lower bar than that to compare it to.
Thanks for that - it's good to know.
Hillary will be 69 on election day 2016. That would make her the second oldest person to be elected president for the first time, after Ronald Reagan.
Unknown said... Forget about Obama - who the devil says Clinton is so "likeable?"
R. Emmett Tyrrell, arch-conservative publisher of The American Spectator, was a savage and relentless critic of Clinton throughout the 90s. He wrote Boy Clinton: The Political Biography, for which reviewers' favorite adjective was "scathing". He's said Clinton is a sociopath.
But he's met Clinton socially, and says that in person he is very affable and charming, a get down and party kind of guy.
Noted you had no answer for me other than a C-fudd-like OT reference to antisemitism. In any case, I'm curious as to why you are so fervent in your support of
the antisemitic party
"a get down and party kind of guy"
Whoda thunk it!
Not only was Clinton impeached and disbarred, but he is the grown up version of Otter from Animal House.
You remember - the guy who hit on the roommate of a 'sophomore dies in kiln explosion' , saying "She was making a pot for me".
Yup. He's THAT guy. And he's the best the Dems have, too.
Back-story is Bill would not speak for Barry in Charlotte until Barry finally cut the long-promised-never-delivared big check retiring Hilary's 2008 campaign debt (>$350K).
Now that is the politically slick Bill I remember!
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