Althouse: Would you be prepared to survive in the event of a complete breakdown of modern civilization?"

July 30, 2012

Would you be prepared to survive in the event of a complete breakdown of modern civilization?"

"A man-made or natural global disaster could strand you for months, years or forever with no electricity, no water from the taps, no grocery stores, no city services and no government. Further, you'll be surrounded by countless others who didn't prepare — the very same people who mock survivalists by calling them paranoid pessimists and worse. But survivalists are the ultimate optimists. They believe that they will succeed - no matter what happens to the rest of the world — if only they can assemble the right supplies and learn the right survival techniques."

The book (recommended by Instapundit) is: "Long-Term Survival In The Coming Dark Age: Preparing to Live after Society Crumbles." I like that it's available in Kindle format. Gives me an idea for an update of that old "Twilight Zone" episode "Time Enough at Last." I'll blend in some elements from "The Shelter."

("Time Enough at Last" is the one where — after the nuclear holocaust — a man who wants to read breaks his glasses. "The Shelter" is the one where — as people think nuclear war is about to begin — one family has a bomb shelter and their neighbors don't and want in.)

167 comments:

test said...: Time Enough at Last was pretty unrealistic. Everyone knows he died when Clubber Lang punched him in the gut. I guess it could have been an imminent-death hallucination.; 7/30/12, 1:42 PM
john said...: Will Amazon still be up? I would need to order that Kindle book, and a generator.; 7/30/12, 1:43 PM
CJinPA said...: "The Shelter" is the one where — as people think nuclear war is about to begin — one family has a bomb shelter and their neighbors don't and want in.)

NED FLANDERS: Homer, I figured this might happen. So I made our shelter big enough for both families.

HOMER SIMPSON: No deal. Out.; 7/30/12, 1:44 PM
CJinPA said...: "Time Enough"...

With DVR, how many people fast forward to the part where he steps on his glasses?; 7/30/12, 1:45 PM
jungatheart said...: One of my favorite subjects...survival porn.

Too bad I'm such a procrastinator.; 7/30/12, 1:53 PM
rhhardin said...: I'm all set, lots of books.; 7/30/12, 1:55 PM
Tim said...: My M1A says "Yes."; 7/30/12, 1:58 PM
KJE said...: Best have that one in paper form if you are going to need it. Those kindles won't hold a charge forever...

Most people won't do the bare minimum of 3 or 7 days worth of supplies though.; 7/30/12, 1:59 PM
Michael K said...: Guns ?
Check.
Ammo ?
Check.

I don't have my boat anymore but I do have a supply of books. Kindle isn't going to cut it when the lights go out.; 7/30/12, 2:00 PM
Alex said...: What b-s, in such a scenario only those doomsteaders will survive and only until they have a medical emergency.; 7/30/12, 2:01 PM
Alex said...: Why is Glenn Reynolds peddling this doomer garbage?; 7/30/12, 2:01 PM
Kevin said...: Most of us would die in the first month, if only due to loss of perscription medicine.

Stuff you take for granted like blood pressure medicine, inhalers, heck I don't even think I'd make it that long without Zantac. If I go a few days without it it feels like my throat is closing up.

And you can't prepare for that. You can't order years of supplies of drugs in advance, because insurance wouldn't pay for it and they'd expire before you could use them anyway. All your meticulously gathered canned food and shotgun shells would just go to someone else on your death. Just like your wife and daughters (who would have a high chance of dying in childbirth from the rapes, if not from the rapes themselves).; 7/30/12, 2:02 PM
Calypso Facto said...: Further, you'll be surrounded by countless others who didn't prepare — the very same people who mock survivalists by calling them paranoid pessimists and worse.

Mr. Obama, knocking loudly, "You didn't build that survival shelter yourself! Now let me in!! Please?!?"; 7/30/12, 2:02 PM
Sydney said...: I met a woman recently who wrote a book called Armageddon Medicine. I think she has Alex's concerns covered there. (She told me she makes great sales at survivalist conferences. She even does her own armageddon medicine conferences to teach people how to do basic things for themselves.); 7/30/12, 2:03 PM
Ann Althouse said...: I assume the main point of this book is to stoke one's fantasy life now. Just like that pornography Glenn was writing about in his NY Post column that I linked to earlier today.

You're not really going to do those things later. In real life, it would all be quite different. If you prepare all that stuff for the big emergency, how do you keep other people from stealing it. It's like now, saving for the future, except saving for a future when there will be robbery, violent robbery, everywhere and no way to call the police.

Yes, yes... enjoy imagining how you will fight off the chaos and somehow thrive. That's your fantasy life, now, not what would happen then.; 7/30/12, 2:12 PM
jungatheart said...: Guns ?
Check.
Ammo ?
Check.
----

Then what? How long before marauding bands wear you down?; 7/30/12, 2:13 PM
Alex said...: Why would I want to fantasize about some apocalyptic survival scenario? No thanks, I'd rather die in the first hours...; 7/30/12, 2:17 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: We could last for a year or so without too much discomfort.
Armageddon Pantry. Check
[Gardening and replenishing food supplies would be something that people would have to immediately get started on.]
Propane tanks for cooking. Check
Wood stove for heat and cooking. Plus lots of firewood. Check
Self sustaining property. Fruit trees, vegetables. Seeds in reserve. Check
Generators to power the pump in well for water and keep freezer going for a while. Check
Gasoline and oil in storage, rotated to prevent decay over time. Full gas tanks in all vehicles at almost all times. Yes
Chain saws, hand tools and other supplies in the shop and barn buildings.
Kerosene and oil lamps.
Solar powered lamps
Guns, ammo. The ability and willingness to kill, skin and preserve game and livestock. Yep.
Extra grain and animal feed. Check.
Neighbors who have goats, chickens, rabbits and willing to trade/barter. Yes.
First aid supplies and vitamins.
Books, games, musical instruments to pass the time.
and more stuff

Plans already in place in the community to blockade the roads to keep the flat-landers out. And we currently have an organized citizens patrol..in effect because our sheriff and police coverage is about nil anyway.

So yea. We can get by for a while. It won't be fun. But we can do it. I certainly hope it doesn't come to this. But (shrug) who knows. Why not be prepared.; 7/30/12, 2:18 PM
jungatheart said...: I recently saw a book on Amazon that talks about having an escape route planned if you live in a city, with a pre-planned destination in the boonies (for want of a better word.) He said there were places near enough to any city that you could reach if you pre-planned.; 7/30/12, 2:18 PM
john said...: Glenn makes a healthier profit when his readers hit his Amazon button and buy that $5000 20KW generator than Ann makes when her readers buy a $.99 kindle book.; 7/30/12, 2:20 PM
Orion said...: LOL

Yes, it's so FOOLISH to prepare!

Right up until you need it.

Mock all you want, but a very slight degree of preparation is likely to pay off- I don't mean the digging a survival bunker in your back yard and arming it with robot sentries and food for a thousand years.

I've got alternate power (Solar) arrangements for my gadgets, ammo, weapons, food, water, and the ability to get more of pretty much anything I need. If it does hit the fan, I'm pretty well set. There are a number of strategies for dealing with the folks - like yourselves - who have NOT prepared. They really depend upon the situation, don't they?

But being ready? That's just common sense. I live in a tectonically unstable region in sight of several volcanoes. An area that is subject to flooding and wildfires. Every place is subject to electrical failures, civil unrest, etc. - All of which I'm well prepared to deal with. Societal collapse? Yup, things will be different and unlikely to completely match any scenario you may explicitly prepare for.

Which is why you prepare GENERALLY. *IF* it happens, I'm miles ahead of the mockers. If it doesn't, I'm out...um...nothing.

Orion; 7/30/12, 2:20 PM
Tim said...: "Yes, yes... enjoy imagining how you will fight off the chaos and somehow thrive. That's your fantasy life, now, not what would happen then."

Right.

The much more likely scenario is the Katrina one, in which case you simply need to keep your shit together long enough for order to be restored. At worst, a week or two.

In the other, highly unlikely scenario, there will be places that likely aren't affected, too badly. If you live in, close to, or within migrating distance of one of those areas, you chances of making it are much better.

Live in any major urban area?

Ha. You'll be screwed.

But having a weapon and enough ammunition to defend yourself is never, ever a bad idea.; 7/30/12, 2:22 PM
jungatheart said...: "Plans already in place in the community to blockade the roads to keep the flat-landers out."

Hee-hee, lady, I like the cut of your jib (and I was thinking about you as I wrote my previous post).; 7/30/12, 2:22 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: I live in a tectonically unstable region in sight of several volcanoes

I think you might be my neighbor. :-); 7/30/12, 2:22 PM
ricpic said...: My 90 year old neighbor lost his wife 2 years ago but continues to grow the same outsize vegetable garden. I make it a point to stay in his good graces just in case.; 7/30/12, 2:25 PM
Shanna said...: I have rice, beans and guns. That's about as prepared as I'm going to get.; 7/30/12, 2:25 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: @ Deborah

LOL. Seriously. We have just a few paved roads that make our area accessible. So we could easily restrict access routes in and out....for safety's sake. Heck. The pioneers lived here in the early 1800's with nothing and they survived. It wasn't easy. But it can be done. Do I WANT to do it. HELL NO. But, if we have to....; 7/30/12, 2:26 PM
edutcher said...: I think SERE School would be a necessity.

If things really collapse (EMP, etc.), a lot of people's preparations might not be as good as they thought - Kevin's caveat about prescription medicine is well-taken and what Alex said (I know...) about medical emergencies (how many have a doctor or nurse at hand?).; 7/30/12, 2:27 PM
ndspinelli said...: Beef jerky, candy and whiskey. You can barter for anything w/ those items.; 7/30/12, 2:29 PM
Alex said...: Ammo, guns, liquor and women. All one needs for good barterin'.; 7/30/12, 2:32 PM
Orion said...: @Dustbunny Queen: Oregonian? :D

@Edteacher: That's one reason I Faraday-cage my electronics in my BOB :D If it works, great, if not, oh well. They're luxury items anyway.

Orion; 7/30/12, 2:33 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: prescription medicine is well-taken and what Alex said (I know...) about medical emergencies (how many have a doctor or nurse at hand?

Don't take any medications. None. Hubby used to take metaformin, but since losing enough weight, his diabetic condition is controlled by diet. If the feces hits the oscillating mechanism, I expect that we will soon become even more slim and trim :-)

Two of our good friends (and hot rod buddies in the same car club) are doctors who live in less than a 8 mile radius from us on their own ranches. Plus the local veterinarian's office is just a mile down the road.

Accidents will happen.; 7/30/12, 2:33 PM
Rusty said...: Every body should have enough supplies to last 7 days at least. In case of failure of the electrical grid, or a major flood, or when the Mars people finally get fed up at us dropping shit on their planet and decide to retaliate.; 7/30/12, 2:35 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: @Dustbunny Queen: Oregonian? :D

Almost. Fictional State of Jefferson. South East side. OR. North Eastern corner of Calif to be more accurate.

:-D; 7/30/12, 2:35 PM
jungatheart said...: I'm reminded of the Donner Party. One large family, including a newborn, survived, while the single men traveling alone were the first course.; 7/30/12, 2:36 PM
Alex said...: I live strictly on a JIT-basis. I have no reserve stocks of water, food. Let he zombies eat me, I won't care at that point.; 7/30/12, 2:40 PM
John said...: The problem with all of the doomsday stuff is that they assume the whole world is going to be destroyed like something out of The Road. This is a huge country and an even bigger world. Even an EMP attack would most likely not affect more than a section of the country. To attack the whole country, you would have to have a ten megaton bomb exploding nearly in space over Kansas. That is pretty unlikely.

The point is that help would be on the way. You wouldn't have to live for years or forever without electricity and such. The world would reorganize itself. People would not immediately form marauding gangs. I have been to a place were all of government and civil society collapsed, post invasion Iraq. All of the infrastructure was destroyed and there was no police or government really of any kind in most places. And on top of that there were lunatic running around blowing shit up. And it was nothing like these clowns predict.

There is something to be said for emergency preparedness. Generators and gas are a good thing. I would require gas stations to install generators so they don't close down when the power goes out. Food and basic supplies are a good thing to have around.

But you are not going to go full road warrior. Anyone who thinks that is just engaging in apocalypse porn. Have fun jerking off. But stop wasting my time telling me about it.; 7/30/12, 2:41 PM
jimbino said...: Deborah 2:36 hit the nail on the head. If half the Donner party could survive, so can I.

I have all the mechanical and technical skills required, but I'd still have to learn to stomach butchering animals and eating my mother.; 7/30/12, 2:44 PM
jungatheart said...: Willow Bark vs. Aspirin

Willow bark and aspirin both have properties that can reduce pain and inflammation. The salicin in willow bark is so close to aspirin that it was used to develop aspirin in the 1800s. If you are experiencing pain or swelling, talk to your doctor about willow bark, aspirin and other herbs or medications that may bring you relief to decide which option is right for you.

Uses
Willow bark and aspirin are both effective at treating minor to moderate pain and inflammation. Aspirin is also a fever reducer, and willow bark may help reduce fever and boost the immune system, according to the University of Maryland Medical Center. Willow bark is effective at relieving pain from headaches, lower back pain and pain from osteoarthritis. Aspirin can prevent heart attacks and strokes in some people, but you should not use it in this matter unless your doctor directs you to do so.

Dosage
You can take willow bark as a tea or capsule. To make a tea, boil 1 to 2 tsp. of dried willow bark in 8 oz. of water for 10 to 15 minutes and allow it to steep for 30 minutes. You can drink three to four cups of the tea per day. Capsules containing powdered willow bark are available through health food stores and nutritional supplement providers. Take 60 to 240 milligrams per day to relieve pain and inflammation. Aspirin tablets come in different strengths. Follow the dosage instructions on the packaging or your doctor's instructions. Be aware that other products and over-the-counter pain relievers may contain aspirin or acetylsalicylic acid. Do not take willow bark and aspirin at the same time.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/123952-willow-bark-vs.-aspirin/#ixzz228XHfokp; 7/30/12, 2:44 PM
jungatheart said...: Jimbino, just be careful that one of your four immigrant wives doesn't get to you before you get to your mother.; 7/30/12, 2:47 PM
MnMark said...: The world would reorganize itself. People would not immediately form marauding gangs.

Oh yeah? I came tell you two examples of people forming marauding gangs that have happened in just the past 20 years in the USA:

1992 Los Angeles riots.

Hurricane Katrina aftermath.

Incidentally, next time a liberal asks "what are assault rifles good for except killing, anyway?", just respond "1992 Los Angeles riots. Hurricane Katrinra aftermath."

There are very realistic, very possible scenarios of temporary social collapse like the above where having a "scary-looking" rifle can come in very handy. Just ask the Korean shop owners who guarded their stores during the 1992 riots.

With temporary economic collapse a non-negligible possibility, it would be very foolish not to own some such weapon.; 7/30/12, 2:50 PM
MnMark said...: Lol - in fact, now that I think of it, blacks (reported as "teens" in the news) are running around in marauding gangs already, beating people of other races and stealing things from stores. They call them "flash mobs".

So don't tell use there won't be marauding gangs forming in the event of social breakdown - hell, it happens the instant the power goes off! See every major power outage in every major city in the USA in the last fifty years.

Except maybe Grand Forks/Fargo, which had a tremendous flood and as far I know, no roving gangs at all....just people pitching in to organize and save their community. I wonder what could possibly explain that difference between Fargo and New Orleans?; 7/30/12, 3:03 PM
Oso Negro said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/30/12, 3:09 PM
Richard Dolan said...: Coming Dark Ages? It sounds like life in California's Central Valley today, as described by VD Hanson. His most recent piece compares the Valley to the society depicted in the Road Warrior movies. It's gotten so bad that he recently installed a hand-pump on his grandfather's old well, to ensure a secure source of water when the copper thieves end up turning out all the lights (and pumps).

Welcome to the future.; 7/30/12, 3:10 PM
John said...: Mn Mark

People didn't form marauding gangs in New Orleans. That is a total myth created by the media. The only gang running around Post Katrina New Orleans was the NOPD.

And the LA riots were a riot not a natural disaster.

But in both cases, civilization returned to normal pretty quickly. I am not saying don't prepare or even have weapons. But the idea that we will have some kind of road warrior existence is just BS.; 7/30/12, 3:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Another good bargaining tool would be a skill. Doctors, nurses, homeopaths, farmers, carpenters, masons, anyone with some of the old skills, knitting, crochet, seamstress and tailors, basket weavers, soap makers, hunters, and those who are skilled in preparing the animal, those who know how to can and preserve food would be sought out. These skills could be as good as gold if and when the societies start forming again.

Those who know how to make water potable, may be the most precious of all.; 7/30/12, 3:11 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: But you are not going to go full road warrior. Anyone who thinks that is just engaging in apocalypse porn.

Probably not. However, my rationale for being very prepared is based on logical thinking.

1. We are a long LONG way from urban areas

2. Most of our supplies in the form of food, gasoline etc is shipped in from those areas.

3. If there were to be a natural disaster, like a large earthquake in the SF Bay area, or a terrorist event.....our supplies would be cut off for quite some time as efforts to help would be concentrated there and we would be forgotten or put onto the back burner.

4. We experience power outages that can last for days and once over a week. In addition those outages are usually in the dead of winter with snowy conditions.

5. In the above mentioned winter....we have experienced shortages of fresh items like milk, meat and vegetables just from the people stocking up and supplies being cut off from truck delivery. Plus...I just don't feel like going to the store in the snow sometimes and it is nice to go to the pump house for stuff.

6. And if it DOES become road warrior time. We are also prepared for that.

So, nothing porn-ish about it. We are just being practical. If you aren't...that's your problem.; 7/30/12, 3:12 PM
Peter said...: "What will you do when the label comes off?
And the plastic's all melted and the chrome is too soft?

("I think I'm very tired and I'm going to die")

-- Frank Zappa, "Who Are the Brain Police"

http://www.mp3lyrics.org/f/frank-zappa/who/; 7/30/12, 3:14 PM
Oso Negro said...: Ann said:
I assume the main point of this book is to stoke one's fantasy life now. Just like that pornography Glenn was writing about in his NY Post column that I linked to earlier today.

You're not really going to do those things later. In real life, it would all be quite different. If you prepare all that stuff for the big emergency, how do you keep other people from stealing it. It's like now, saving for the future, except saving for a future when there will be robbery, violent robbery, everywhere and no way to call the police.

Yes, yes... enjoy imagining how you will fight off the chaos and somehow thrive. That's your fantasy life, now, not what would happen then.

But some of us have lived through emergencies, and it is amazing how quickly things deteriorate. It is shocking (speaking from personal experience) to find the store shelves stripped of food, and the gas stations all empty. If you are prepared, your neighbors might try to mooch or steal, but far, far more likely is that some version of the local authorities attempt to confiscate your stuff for the collective good, for "the children" if you will. The authorities will certainly act for their own convenience. So you need not only to be armed against your neighbors, but sneaky enough to avoid the government. And if you don't believe this can happen, a modest reading of the history of the 20th century will prove instructive. Advice - DO NOT go to the FEMA camp.

7/30/12 3:09 PM; 7/30/12, 3:15 PM
MnMark said...: @John

People didn't form marauding gangs in New Orleans. That is a total myth created by the media. The only gang running around Post Katrina New Orleans was the NOPD.

Hmm. I seem to recall gangs of looters (including some NOPD officers!) swarming through stores, stealing stuff. And I distinctly recall two white people standing outside their business with shotguns to fend off said looters - who were almost entirely black.

My point was not that we're going to see a total apocalypse. I agree that some form of government reasserts itself. But in the interim, you are truly on your own, and you had better be armed.

In fact, if you look at the recent cases of the concealed-carry holders who stopped the robbery of the internet cafe, and who stopped the rampage of a knife-wielding maniac, it appears that it already might be a good policy to be armed at all times.; 7/30/12, 3:17 PM
Quaestor said...: I can ride. I can shoot. I can fish. I can field dress a whitetail. But I have no idea how to grow anything but crabgrass. I have a brown thumb. I once tried to grow tomatoes, but the squirrels and the deer ate them all. I think I got two decent BLTs out of the entire effort (and I bought the B, and the L, and the bread, and the mayo, and the energy to fry the B) When civilization does the crash 'n burn I'm going to live live rough 'n ready Liberty Valance. Look out sodbuster!; 7/30/12, 3:17 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Katrina should be a wake up call for those like John who seem to think that the government is here to save us.

The focus was all NOLA all the freaking time, while people in devastated areas in small towns throughout the area were on their own and totally ignored.

If/when disaster strikes, the safest thing is toassume that there will be no help. And as stated above....assume that the government is not necessarily there to help YOU and more likely to rob you.; 7/30/12, 3:20 PM
Bryan C said...: "Why would I want to fantasize about some apocalyptic survival scenario? No thanks, I'd rather die in the first hours..."

You'll probably get your wish, Alex.

I don't understand this sort of attitude at all. It's a given that in real life some people will just give up and die; people give up and die every day without even a minor apocalypse to help them along.

But why do people feel the need to brag about a lack of interest in survival? Or mock people who might prefer to be something more than a mass casualty statistic?

~

"Yes, yes... enjoy imagining how you will fight off the chaos and somehow thrive. That's your fantasy life, now, not what would happen then."

I doubt I'd thrive. Realistically I'd be lucky to survive. But some people always survive. Maybe it's the bastard who steals my piddly survival kit and kills me. Better him than nobody at all, right?; 7/30/12, 3:21 PM
MnMark said...: Advice - DO NOT go to the FEMA camp.

More advice: DO NOT go to the Superdome, either.; 7/30/12, 3:23 PM
jungatheart said...: "People didn't form marauding gangs in New Orleans. That is a total myth created by the media. The only gang running around Post Katrina New Orleans was the NOPD."

I read that Blackwater operatives were deployed also.; 7/30/12, 3:24 PM
MadisonMan said...: Nobody learns statistics any more.

Why waste time and energy worrying about something that is so unlikely to happen.

I wonder how many survivalists have been killed driving to fill up their propane tank or to get ammo.; 7/30/12, 3:28 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: I wonder how many survivalists have been killed driving to fill up their propane tank or to get ammo.

Less than those killed while innocently watching a movie in Aurora Colorado.; 7/30/12, 3:31 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Better slightly prepared and struggling a bit than fully prepared and an attractive target.; 7/30/12, 3:31 PM
MnMark said...: And better yet to be fully prepared and keep signs of it to yourself.; 7/30/12, 3:33 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Why waste time and energy worrying about something that is so unlikely to happen.

I wonder how many survivalists have been killed driving to fill up their propane tank or to get ammo.

This. How many people invest a mere hour in learning how to drive more defensively? (And how many make a point of leaving the house on time to avoid reckless rushing?) How many check their smoke detectors on schedule? How many put in the effort for daily exercise? Etc.; 7/30/12, 3:38 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: And more important than all that, how many people take the time to seek answers to the Big Questions, the questions which may have answers more important than life itself?; 7/30/12, 3:42 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I bet there will be a lot of guys prepared like this, "I have no moral core, I know a lot of guys just like me, and we have plenty of guns between us."; 7/30/12, 3:43 PM
Bryan C said...: "And you can't prepare for that. You can't order years of supplies of drugs in advance, because insurance wouldn't pay for it and they'd expire before you could use them anyway."

I think death within a month is rather pessimistic. Like a lot of people, I'd be uncomfortable without my prescriptions, but I know what happens when I run out, and fortunately for me it's not imminent death.

You can buy a stockpile of most medicines with your own money. You try to use the older stock before it expires, replacing it with what you just bought. It's a pain, but people who care enough, like some insulin dependent diabetics, already do it.; 7/30/12, 3:45 PM
Revenant said...: Why waste time and energy worrying about something that is so unlikely to happen.

What does "unlikely to happen" mean, exactly?; 7/30/12, 3:45 PM
Revenant said...: Most of us would die in the first month, if only due to loss of perscription medicine.

You believe there ae 160,000,000 Americans who need monthly medication to keep them alive?; 7/30/12, 3:47 PM
Tibore said...: Thank goodness I read the comments here; John already said what I was going to say, up to and including the allusion to Road Warrior. People think, for some odd reason, that in the case of world-changing catastrophe that people will en-mass suddenly change the totality of their attitudes and behaviors in the name of survival. As John noted, actual experience with such societies demonstrates the that the worst that happens is not the worst that's predicted by these purveyors of doomsday entertainment literature (and this guide is really exactly that: Doomsday literature that as a practical matter functions more to entertain, despite its seriousness about teaching readers the topic). The bulk of humanity's attitudes and values are too often ignored in favor of committing pop-psychoanalysis. And beause of that, such work suffers the indignity of ultimately being superficial in their treatments of grander topics.

Not that there's zero value in the practical sections. We may not be losing the entire world's social structure to an asteroid, but as the book itself pointed out, it's not impossible to have to endure catastrophic situations for weeks to months at a time in case of natural disaster. Such survival skills are definitely important in those cases.

That said, most of the time, these works function less as actually practical guides and more as eschatology porn. You read it to fantasize, not to actually learn how to survive.; 7/30/12, 3:53 PM
Quaestor said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/30/12, 3:59 PM
traditionalguy said...: The Homeland Security Agency has set up concentration camps, ordered 5 million rounds of military ammo, gotten authority to take over all f communications in a crisis and begun policing with drones already.

Somebody out there knows that there will be a breakdown in social order soon. I wonder how they know that?

That suppose that is why the Tea Party is getting dissed so much. They are all that is standing in the way of Martial Law over a Hoax in DC.; 7/30/12, 4:03 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: tradguy, and the motivation for the government to take such an action is...; 7/30/12, 4:12 PM
Michael K said...: "Another good bargaining tool would be a skill. Doctors, nurses, homeopaths, "

Homeopaths ???

Doesn't everybody know how to mix water ?

No doubt you ridicule people who believe in the Bible.; 7/30/12, 4:12 PM
Quaestor said...: Since in as matter of mere survival I'm fated it seems to live the outlaw life (having no skill as a farmer) I'm going to need a few toadies to round out my idiom, as it were. A truculent man-ape and a cackling halfwit will do nicely. Any volunteers?... Garage Mahal? Shiloh?; 7/30/12, 4:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Michael K, are you addressing me? If so, whyever would I ridicule people who believe in the Bible? Non Christians and Christians alike have moral codes that would be useful in the formation of a society or simply survival in small groups.; 7/30/12, 4:25 PM
Shanna said...: The focus was all NOLA all the freaking time, while people in devastated areas in small towns throughout the area were on their own and totally ignored.

Somewhat yes, but remember it is not only government that can help you. After Katrina, one of the local radio stations took donated items by the truckload, (driven by volunteers) down to mississippi and handed them out in the immediate aftermath. If we are talking about a localized disaster, it's not just government that can help. (Walmart also gave out free prescriptions for a while).; 7/30/12, 4:29 PM
Shanna said...: Why waste time and energy worrying about something that is so unlikely to happen.

This is my view on it mostly. Reasonable to get 1 week or 2’s work of food (although most of us probably have that in the pantry without trying), maybe some water bottles, fishing pole, gun, etc… But the major survivalist stuff seem OTT.

How many put in the effort for daily exercise? Etc.

First rule of the zombie apocalypse is cardio.; 7/30/12, 4:32 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Somewhat yes, but remember it is not only government that can help you.

I believe that was what I was trying to convey. We are on our own. Private charities, private industry, private businesses...MAY be able to help, but....we should plan on being left to our own resources as individuals and as a community.; 7/30/12, 4:35 PM
Carnifex said...: I guess all the Pollyannas missed the report this weekend about how Homeland Security ordered up a bunch of riot gear for the "expected riots" this coming fall. You know, during the elections. (their words not mine)

Anyhow, all you people planning on giving up, just rolling over and dying...Can I have your stuff? Just send me the address, and some spare keys(to save me from having to kick in the door)

As far as the lone rod warrior, no, that's the quickest way to die. You have to have some sort of tribal effort. By the way, suburban neighborhoods are too spread open to be defended by just induvidual houses. That's just a death trap waiting to be sprung.

Allie listed a group of skills that could lead to survival. People who have been there talk of other things though. The ability to entertain is paramount in a long term disaster situation. People like and want singers, musicians etc...The ability to not hesitate to kill the other guy. In a lawless society, the quick get the spoils in any dispute.

There are blogs by people who have lived through this stuff, from WWII to the present, this stuff occurs daily across the globe. It's hubris to think it won't ever occur here.

As far as prepping goes, I've got stashes of material. We've got a wall of water(5'high 8'long) rainbarrels for collecting it. There's a lake a mile from the house. We've got a room in the basement full of food, 3 freezers, and a garage lined with cabinets full of food.(my wife is a natural hoarder) We can hold out for a while. And if it continues, there's my wifes family farm as a last resort. It has running water, wells, houses, barns fruit trees, nut trees, etc.

If you think the government is gonna ride in to save your ass at the last minute, why? Do you eat apples and shit fruit salad? Or are you just another taxpayer?; 7/30/12, 4:40 PM
bagoh20 said...: Yes, it has come as a great disappointment to me that after decades of preparation, I will likely miss the Apocalypse, or be too old for anything other than slowing down a zombie as he takes a break to eat the senile brain out of my old defenseless body as I clutch my 45, too weak to lift it.

I intend to pollute my brain with intoxicants and leftist drivel in an attempt to poison that one stupid zombie. Live free or stink!; 7/30/12, 4:41 PM
Gene said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/30/12, 4:42 PM
Rabel said...: DBQ,

You will be issuing the secret password for entry to your fortified mountain redoubt to your Althouse buddies, won't you?; 7/30/12, 4:45 PM
Carnifex said...: Ps

Someone up thread suggested trading whiskey, candy, and ammo...never ever trade ammo.

Maxim 21: Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow.; 7/30/12, 4:46 PM
AndyN said...: And to pull the two threads together... Would you be prepared to survive in the event of a complete breakdown of modern civilization if you can't even manage a C in algebra?; 7/30/12, 4:46 PM
Revenant said...: "Another good bargaining tool would be a skill. Doctors, nurses, homeopaths"

Homeopaths??? Doesn't everybody know how to mix water ?

The ability to con people into trading you valuable goods and services in exchange for nothing seems like a pretty useful survival skill to me...; 7/30/12, 4:47 PM
Anonymous said...: Homeopaths may have knowledge of some substances found in nature, do they not?

When your meds from Merck or Abbot Labs run out, their skills may be useful. I generally don't believe they have much to offer in modern medicine, but is it so difficult to envision a future when we may need to have people skilled in natural medicine?; 7/30/12, 4:53 PM
Gene said...: People who think that average citizens don't need to be armed must not be paying any attention to the interracial mob attacks on ordinary people who make the mistake of thinking they can walk the streets without fear. Obama (and his attorney general) have repeatedly signaled that they won't interfere with "street justice" against the middle class (and in fact will take the other side).

With the Justice Department being run on racial lines, anyone who doesn't get a gun to protect himself and his family is whistling in the wind.; 7/30/12, 4:53 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: is it so difficult to envision a future when we may need to have people skilled in natural medicine?

Not at all. We have too much 'medicine' now as it is. I believe that most people are over medicated and over diagnosed.

Sometimes the best course of action is to do as little as possible, natural remedies and let time heal. Not for a broken leg or a severe injury of course :-); 7/30/12, 4:56 PM
pm317 said...: Hey we can't even survive a power outage with Pepco if it went on for day!; 7/30/12, 4:57 PM
Quaestor said...: Allie Oop wrote:
Homeopaths may have knowledge of some substances found in nature, do they not?

Yes, they do not.; 7/30/12, 5:04 PM
Shanna said...: I believe that was what I was trying to convey. We are on our own.

Oh, I understand, and I do agree. I was rather pissed off during Katrina at how much focus was on NOLA only (when the gulf coast MS was hit far worse) so that was just spillover.

1-2 weeks of supplies makes good sense for everyone (probably more if you are in a rural area).

When people start talking about a complete breakdown of society, asteroids, or anything else more catastrophic, I think we're going to be making things up as we go, so planning beyond the minimum may not be very helpful.; 7/30/12, 5:05 PM
Joe said...: The problem with this thought experiment is that modern civilization won't entirely fall. The federal government could collapse, as could the state government, but my local town won't, nor would my neighborhood. Grocery stores won't simply fall apart. People won't simply forget how to farm, the local doctors and nurses won't collectively lose their minds.

Even if we lost half the population of the valley in which I live, the rest would come together remarkably quickly. Even if the mountain passes to the valley to east, where much agriculture is done, were closed, we'd reopen them. In the meantime, there is still a lot of farmland and know how (some former neighbors raised the most delicious beef.)

The disaster which would prevent this cooperation, would kill us all (such as the Yellowstone Super-Volcano erupting.); 7/30/12, 5:06 PM
Revenant said...: Homeopaths may have knowledge of some substances found in nature, do they not?

No more than any other person does.; 7/30/12, 5:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Naturopathic and homeopathic medicine, it may be all that's left after the apocalypse, reject it in favor of what? What hospitals and drug companies will be functional after the power grid goes down?

Good luck.; 7/30/12, 5:16 PM
bagoh20 said...: At the first sign of the end, a lot of us will be heading to the local pharmacy, and then the next and the next. Pharmaceuticals will be the most valuable items - not ammo, which is low tech, and can be easily produced. Drugs are the new essential, not to mention one of the most valued non-essentials. It's a good investment on day one.; 7/30/12, 5:19 PM
Revenant said...: Let me clarify a bit, Alley:

Homeopathy is isn't "natural medicine". It is pure, unadulterated fraud. Every person selling homeopathic "medicine" should be in prison for fraud.

I would call homeopaths snake-oil salesmen, except most snake-oil salesmen at least sold products that did SOMETHING. Homeopaths sell vials of tap water.; 7/30/12, 5:19 PM
Revenant said...: Naturopathic and homeopathic medicine, it may be all that's left after the apocalypse, reject it in favor of what?

The sole difference between "naturopathic/homeopathic medical care" and "no medical care" is that you don't have to trade or barter for "no medical care".; 7/30/12, 5:20 PM
Anonymous said...: Revenant, you may be right. I'm a nurse who has only been involved in modern medicine. I did a bit of research on Homeopathy and I understand it's very controversial, perhaps Naturopathy might describe better what I am trying to convey here.; 7/30/12, 5:24 PM
Revenant said...: Why not just use prayer and burnt offerings to the gods? It is as rational and fact-based as naturopathy -- and equally effective, to boot. You even get bonus points for upholding traditional values.; 7/30/12, 5:34 PM
bagoh20 said...: The post-apocalypse is always portrayed as stuck in low tech, but that does not make sense, the knowledge will be available. What was will be again in short order. The big difference will be availability. It won't be widespread, and thus it will be expensive, but people will get together and pool resources to get valuables made. They will get the required people together and rebuild a drug company complete with a private army.

The current battle lines will remain between democracies and dictatorships. Dictatorships will have the advantage again... for a while. Evil usually gets off the first shot.; 7/30/12, 5:35 PM
Anonymous said...: Opium, slippery elm bark, digitalis, chamomile, just to name a few substances found in nature that are effective.; 7/30/12, 5:36 PM
Anonymous said...: Don't forget Marijauna:); 7/30/12, 5:39 PM
kentuckyliz said...: I stockpiled a bunch of Nutrisystem because there was a good sale. I will eat, and be skinny, and the Nutritoots will serve as self-defense.

I will try to drive 12 hours to get to my sister's farm.

Then I will die within a month or two because of no thyroid and no Synthroid. I want my lovely sister to care for me as I fade and die.; 7/30/12, 5:45 PM
Revenant said...: Opium, slippery elm bark, digitalis, chamomile, just to name a few substances found in nature that are effective.

I think the problem here is that you're using words you don't know the meaning of. Homeopathy and naturopathy are the names of two specific belief systems masquerading as medicine. They have nothing at all to do with actually knowing a damned thing about what plants have medical uses. The core belief of homeopathy is that tiny amounts of a substance, immensely watered down, will cure people harmed by that substance. The core belief of naturopathy is that the body will cure itself if you remove foreign influences (e.g. actual medicine) from influencing it.

A person who knows the medical value of common plants is called "a member of the Boy Scouts of America", not a naturopath. :); 7/30/12, 5:58 PM
Oso Negro said...: Joe said:

The problem with this thought experiment is that modern civilization won't entirely fall. The federal government could collapse, as could the state government, but my local town won't, nor would my neighborhood. Grocery stores won't simply fall apart. People won't simply forget how to farm, the local doctors and nurses won't collectively lose their minds.

Civilizations come and go, but rarely is all civil order lost in a broad region simultaneously. If the electricity goes out, that is going to be a big problem, as is anything that disrupts the flow of goods to the supermarkets. The supply lines are very long these days, there has been a dimunition of basic skills, and much farmland has gone to suburb or seed. It also takes a while to get a crop even if you know what you are doing and the time of year is in your favor. In the event of TEOTWAKI as it is known to preparedness afficionados, there will be a period that you may think of as the Great Munching. When there is nothing else to munch, the real ugliness will begin, but it won't last long as a great many people will probably starve. Getting through the first year would be a major accomplishment.; 7/30/12, 5:59 PM
Revenant said...: Also, the medical properties of opium poppies, elm bark and digitalis fall under "medicine", not "alternative medicine", "natural medicine", or anything like that. If it has been scientifically tested and we know it works (and, better yet, what in it MAKES it work), that's just plain ol' medicine.; 7/30/12, 6:00 PM
Gene said...: Joe: Grocery stores won't simply fall apart. People won't simply forget how to farm. . .

The stores won't fall apart. They just won't have anything on the shelves.

As far as people not forgetting how to farm, that's true, but only became most people in this country today never knew how to farm in the first place. Two hundred years ago 90% of the people engaged in farming and they did it locally. Today it's a mere 2% and most of that is done in the midwest or California. If a big solar flare shut down our electrical grid (a completely plausible scenario), we wouldn't be able to move food from the midwest to the east coast. People in a big city would be going hungry within a week and people in small towns a couple of weeks later.

Even rural people would have it tough. Our population is way too big to depend on fish or game anymore, as people might have done 200 years ago. There are too many people on the planet, which is why, fish, which poor people used to eat because it was so cheap, is increasingly scarce and therefore expensive these days. The best way to stop CO2 (assuming it's the cause of global warming)is not to ban coal, oil or natural gas but to reduce population.; 7/30/12, 6:10 PM
Anonymous said...: Revenant, you may be right, but why do I get the feeling of fire burning my feet and crowds led by some guy yelling, "witch!" ?; 7/30/12, 6:20 PM
Nick Carter M. said...: Jesus will come back before this happens.; 7/30/12, 6:21 PM
jungatheart said...: Revenant said...
digitalis
---

I was rather disturbed to see foxglove being sold at Walmart this year.; 7/30/12, 6:28 PM
Ken said...: Kevin,

Most of us would die in the first month, if only due to loss of perscription medicine.

Is this a serious comment? You think the majority of people are alive today because of perscription medicine? Ha!!

Alex,

Why would I want to fantasize about some apocalyptic survival scenario?

Ask New Orleans residents how much of a fantasy this is. Or the residents of Maryland a few weeks ago. Or Tennessee residents a few years ago. Millions of US citizens go without power for more than a week every year. Low frequency events with terrible results on our electrical system could leave hundreds of millions of people without electricity for months. Or do you really think a Carrington event will never happen again?

MadisonMan,

Nobody learns statistics any more.

Why waste time and energy worrying about something that is so unlikely to happen.

This is one of the best examples of accidentally ironic that I've ever seen, since it's clear that you don't understand statistics (or probability). Millions every year go more than a week without electricity. It's simply a matter of time before you do too.; 7/30/12, 7:02 PM
Alex said...: Ken - you are a thoughtcriminal.; 7/30/12, 7:09 PM
Christy said...: Ooooh! Survival porn, as Deborah said, I love it.

Mom was just telling me how Grandma would send one of the kids out in the field for specific plants to cure whatever ailed one of the kids. Of course, when it was available and affordable she used modern medicine. Still, I wish I'd paid more attention when my Grandparents would tell stories. How many of us would recognize a willow tree that wasn't weeping?

Digitalis is natural. Know how much would help and how much would kill?

Do you know how to cook up tasty dandelions?

If you are willing to pay for 6 months of scripts, get your doctor to write one that allows the pharmacist to fill it that way.

Me, I was just checking out power sling shots. May not kill Zombies, but could bring down a rabbit or squirrel.

Cities were abandoned in Great Britain after the Romans pulled out. Brits lost the technology for making tile roofs and hypocausts. Not sure tile roofs were really all that practical, but smoke free indoor heating! That was lost for centuries.; 7/30/12, 7:31 PM
bagoh20 said...: I for one will likely die within a few months without one prescription drug - immunosuppressant. My body will kill itself.

Is that considered self-murder, Althouse? My body would know what it's doing, and it would do it anyway. It may be stupid, but ignorance of the law is no excuse. If this does happen, I want my body prosecuted to the full extent of the law, hopefully the death penalty, because he deserves it.; 7/30/12, 7:54 PM
Revenant said...: Revenant, you may be right, but why do I get the feeling of fire burning my feet and crowds led by some guy yelling, "witch!"?

Paranoia?; 7/30/12, 7:54 PM
Anonymous said...: No Revenant, it's probably deja vu. You were the one wearing the pilgrim hat, the one they called Reverend.

Weird how much that sounds like Revenant.; 7/30/12, 8:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Bagoh, your female liver would be irrepressible. My thyroid or lack of it would get me too, like Kentucky Liz.; 7/30/12, 8:16 PM
Carnifex said...: Ask someone from India what the odds are of an entire country having a black out. Now go back to yesterday and ask the same question; 7/30/12, 8:17 PM
IggyRules said...: Yep - bring it on. Steers on the Back 40, Turnips in the Clamp, and Shooting Irons in Cosmoline.; 7/30/12, 8:21 PM
MadisonMan said...: It would solve the Asian Carp problem, and Emerald Ash Borers wouldn't seem so onerous.

Yes, certainly Carnifex, if it can happen in India, well then for sure it can happen here (eyeroll).; 7/30/12, 9:12 PM
JackWayne said...: I wonder how many people here remember that the reason for Bush's bank bill was that he was trying to stop the complete melt-down of the international banking system? It was Lehman Bros and that was 2008. Are things better for banks today than they were 4 years ago? If your answer is no, then do we stand on a precipice? And since Americans are so bad at history, here's a little reminder: We had a period called the Dark Ages in Europe. From roughtly the fall of Rome in 410 until the Middle Ages, sometime in the 11th century. Causation or Correlation?: there were no banks in Europe from 410 until 1050. And it was a Jew in Germany because the Catholic Church did not allow usury.; 7/30/12, 9:24 PM
Darrell said...: Revenant, you are spot on with your comments on this thread.

And Ms Oop proves a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.; 7/30/12, 10:19 PM
Revenant said...: No Revenant, it's probably deja vu. You were the one wearing the pilgrim hat, the one they called Reverend.

"Persecution" is not a synonym of "ignorance", sweetie.

Homeopathy teaches that distilled water is a valid cancer treatment. Naturopathy argues against chemotherapy and radiation thereapy for cancer victims. You've spent the afternoon promoting superstitions that actually do kill people every day -- because you couldn't be bothered to actually learn what they were about.

Devote a little more effort to reading, and a little less effort to smug self-assurance. You'll benefit from it immensely.; 7/30/12, 10:36 PM
Michael K said...: "Michael K, are you addressing me? If so, whyever would I ridicule people who believe in the Bible? "

Most people who advocate homeopathy ridicule those who "don't accept science." If I misjudged you, I apologize. It has become a leftist fad. Maybe you are immune.; 7/30/12, 11:10 PM
MadisonMan said...: Do you know how to cook up tasty dandelions?

Do it before they flower, at which time the greens get kinda bitter.; 7/30/12, 11:19 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: I will run around pointing and screaming at fat people "that son-of-a-bitch took our food!" My thinking is if the mob is after him, they won't be coming after me.

"Greedy, fat ass son-of-a-bitch!!!" will be my calling card, drawing attention toward those seemingly taking more than their fair share.

If people give me any grief, my player piano will autoplay I'm a HARRRD workin' man! before they can build up any momentum agin' me.; 7/31/12, 12:09 AM
Anonymous said...: Revenant, you are quite smug and arrogant yourself. Take a lesson from Michael K.

I think perhaps you don't know as much about either one as you think you do.; 7/31/12, 12:29 AM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: I thought about this, and one day I realized that the obsession with civilizational collapse is silly. Why?

Because it's already happened.

Africa, where the Apocalypse happened, and people keep on going. War, plague (AIDS, Ebola, you name it), famine, and lots of death. There are even Road Warrior trucks with machine guns in the bed. And yet people thrive, with the population going up every year. Africans are even the happiest people on the planet, if you believe the polls.

Survivalists are wrong. People aren't going to forget how modern civilization works. We won't forget agriculture or the internal combustion engine. Real bad things have happened in the past (the Black Plague of the 14th century comes to mind) and nothing like the total collapse envisioned by pop culture has ever come to pass.

It's just not realistic. People are smart. Postapocalyptic fantasies say a lot about the people who believe them. What I think it is is that Boomers are getting old, and they still can't wrap their heads around the fact that the world will go on without them.

It's not the end of the world, it's just the end of you.; 7/31/12, 2:31 AM
Darrell said...: I think, perhaps, I don't know as much about either one as I think I do.

FIFY, Queen OoopS!
Medical Malpractice lawyers could research your work and construct their cases based on your comments here alone.; 7/31/12, 5:59 AM
Robert Cook said...: I don't think the Doomers or Survivalists or whatever those people are called who are preparing redoubts for themselves stocked with supplies are nuts at all...I think they are being the most practical of us all.

I've always found the idea of living in a renovated missle silo or some other sort of underground structure appealing, partly for reasons of my own--I find the idea of a hidden abode comforting--and partly because I can see a calamity of some sort occurring where a protected shelter would be necessary.; 7/31/12, 7:00 AM
Christy said...: Some believe that the diseases brought by the Spanish Conquest (and I don't mean infected blankets) quickly spread through the great Aztec, Mayan, Olmec and other native American cities devastating the educated population. We totally lost knowledge of their languages and science because the only survivors were the uneducated rural populations. Just saying.

And yes, our age disperses knowledge more widely, but still....; 7/31/12, 7:53 AM
Anonymous said...: Darrell, you are simply a follower and a person who jumps on another's bash bandwagon, you have proven that every time you comment. What a boring little creature you are, consistently negative, I'd hate your life too if I were you.; 7/31/12, 8:05 AM
Holmes said...: Yeah, I don't like life being reduced down to just survival. There are some important skills we should probably learn that have been lost and that would be helpful in emergencies as well as begin re-enforcing the whole idea of self-reliance. But you won't survive a doomsday scenario. And in the long run, you won't survive anyway. John 3:16.; 7/31/12, 8:11 AM
bagoh20 said...: When it does come, I intend to rule. My power will come from control of the T.P.

I'm stocking up now. I'll send up smoke signals 3 days after TSHTF. It would be smart to get on my good side now.; 7/31/12, 8:47 AM
Anonymous said...: The TP King sends smoke signals from his throne.; 7/31/12, 8:55 AM
Darrell said...: Darrell, you are simply a follower and a person who jumps on another's bash bandwagon, you have proven that every time you comment.

What a bald-faced lie. Prove it. Don't bother you can't. I am often the first to bring up a point that is often ignored-- until brought up as original by someone else, though. That, or just throw out a pun.

You would know science if it bit you on the ass--which it has, I suspect. It puts your criticisms of medical doctors in perspective. Perhaps that is why they ignored you. They should have done more.; 7/31/12, 9:13 AM
Anonymous said...: Darrell, this is getting old. What Is your problem, Mr.Personality, you and all of your 9 Facebook friends, what a pathetic person you are. You know absolutely nothing about my opinion and modern medicine and Medical doctors or nurses for that matter.

To make myself clearer so even a cretin such as yourself, can understand, modern medicine, which is based on Evidence Based Medicine, is the one I ascribe to while we live in modern civilized times. If and when a collapse should ever occur, we would be forced to look at alternative medicine, and alternative ways of surviving.

Can you follow that type of logic? I doubt it.; 7/31/12, 9:29 AM
Darrell said...: Evidence Based Medicine

Yet you endorse naturopathic and homeopathic "medicine" both thoroughly studied and judges ineffective and dangerous. Homeopathy got it's start when fairly good chemical technician producing botantical concentrates was poisoning a patient with a plant extract that had never been identified as a poison--it was too rare in Europe and required a high dose to be poisonous. Unfortubately, large numbers of the plant had been discoved in Ceylon and that technician made advances in solvent extraction to get higher yields still. He couldn't understand why his patient was getting sicker when he administered the drug, so he gave more on the next try. Eventually he gave a partial dose--all he had left before the next batch was ready--and that time the patient didn't almost dies. So the next time he cut the dose and the patient did well. He wrote collegues expressing dismay saying how could it be that the less I give the better the patient becomes? I guess his mind never entertained the thought of "poison." The poison he was giving became known later and is metabolized by the liver.

That founder of Homeopathy went on to "theorize" that since all elements and most compounds are contained in the Earth's crust, seawater must contain the same--in concentrations of part per million and billion. It does. But the charlatands today don't even bother to use seawater. Not that it would work anyway, but still.

Sell your ballon juice elsewhere, Oop.

And din't you notice the duplications on my FB friends? The real total is less than nine and that's exactly the way I want it. Heck, I discard dozens of requests per month from people I don't know trying to post huge totals. Maybe I shitcanned yours?; 7/31/12, 9:51 AM
Anonymous said...: Darrell, do you have a brother named Darrell by any chance?; 7/31/12, 9:54 AM
bagoh20 said...: Allie, I'll spare you a square if you show adequate respect to my TP authoritay.

You sure have a way of drawing fire from some people here. I really don't get it myself. You think you're a leftie, and that puts a bit of a target on your back, but I bet even if you just said "good morning" you would get flamed for it. I would just suggest not responding to it at all, or go full blown wingnut, and tell us how bad Obama sucks. That will get you some protection, and Barack has made that task really easy.; 7/31/12, 9:55 AM
Darrell said...: Wow!
First time I heard that, Although intelligent people know that was the brothers "Darryl."

Now accuse me of being homophonic...; 7/31/12, 9:57 AM
Anonymous said...: Bagoh, you know I so wish I could be a righty, just to be on your good side, Darrell here needs to recognize a real man such as yourself and model himself after you. I bet his eyes are shit brown.; 7/31/12, 10:01 AM
Danno said...: Allie, I'm siding with you here, as I see the comments by Revenant and Darrell show them to be people who talk a good story but fall down on the "do" part, which you were trying to convey. In talking about natural remedies to replace drugs that would be unavailable, Revenant showed us his uncanny ability to debate and refute based on your choice of words that sent him into a tantrum. Just like I wouldn't want the guy who can only read from a Teleprompter to be on my side in Survivor, much less Road Warriors.; 7/31/12, 10:04 AM
Anonymous said...: Thanks for the support Danno! I always listen to reasonable conservatives.; 7/31/12, 10:10 AM
Darrell said...: By the way, that was the first time I ever said anything nice about Revenant, as the permanent record shows.

But right is right.

If AllieOop wanted to say that there are plant extracts that could be used to replace some manufactured drugs she could have said so. I think we all know about folk medicine and that the pharmaceutical industry grew out of that. Recommending homeopathic "water" is dangerous and stupid. And a professional nurse should know that.; 7/31/12, 10:14 AM
Anonymous said...: Arrrrgggg. Darrell, my husband was a Pediatrician. I've been a MSN for over 35 years. Now go away, and don't ever darken my door in the witch's hut for treatment, after the Apocalypse, when you get your head bashed in by someone you annoy.; 7/31/12, 10:26 AM
Darrell said...: Darrell, my husband was a Pediatrician

And that makes you smart or clever?
By injection?; 7/31/12, 10:32 AM
Rusty said...: FWIW
It's the inner bark of the willow tree that is effective. Scrape it in some boiling water.; 7/31/12, 10:36 AM
Anonymous said...: Darrell, I'll say this slow so you understand, no it does not make me smart, it makes me respect those who practice modern medicine. It's my MSN that makes me know what I speak about when I discuss health related issues.

If your mind wouldn't be so small and closed perhaps you would see the positive side SOME alternative therapies, especially in the event of a catastrophic collapse of society, dumbass.; 7/31/12, 10:41 AM
Methadras said...: Well, looks like india is seeing what a breakdown of whatever that wretched 8th world shit hole calls a civilization is.; 7/31/12, 10:44 AM
MnMark said...: Well I'm as conservative as they come but I think AllieOop's points were reasonable and those ragging on her were being pedantic and condescending. Plus her comment about Darrell having a brother Darrell made me laugh out loug.; 7/31/12, 11:15 AM
Darrell said...: As a chemical engineer, I certainly do understand. And I would warn people to stay away from
charlatans and fakers. And people that can't bring themselves to call the phonies dangerous. Or know too little to do so.

You'd do better to get yourself some knowledge and stock up at drug stores, vitamin stores, and chinese herbalists when the shit hits the fan--after the doctors and pharmacists have gone to ground. If you know what you are doing, you'll find what you need there. And leave the ineffective stuff for the others. Stay away from plants unless you know what you are doing. And that means being able to identify plants 100% of the time without fail. A fair number of mushroom experts miss the slight differences every year. Which reminds me--care to try some of these beauties? I'll have some later.; 7/31/12, 11:19 AM
Anonymous said...: Good luck stocking up. Unless you mean on over the counter stuff. As far as prescription medicine, stocking up on those will be very difficult as docs will not write prescriptions in those quantities, nor will insurance companies pay for them, plus pharmacies would probably not sell them in large quantities either.; 7/31/12, 11:28 AM
jungatheart said...: Christy, I read in Wiki that herbalists don't try to use digitalis because it's too difficult to calibrate. Read elsewhere that the most potent are the small leaves two inches from top, and that a one-quarter inch of leaf can kill, IIRC.

Rusty, thanks!

Liz, I imagine you could stockpile a lot of thyroid meds because they're so cheap. Not even speaking apoctalyptically, maybe having a six-month supply would be prudent; supply chains, and all that.

Bago, just curious, is there immunosuppressent protocol that you keep a few months supply on hand in case of disaster? Is yours expensive? Makes me think I should make sure my mom has back-up for her donor cornea.; 7/31/12, 11:36 AM
Darrell said...: As far as prescription medicine, stocking up on those will be very difficult as docs will not write prescriptions in those quantities, nor will insurance companies pay for them, plus pharmacies would probably not sell them in large quantities either.

How cute! Things will certainly be like that when the whole system falls apart. Do wait for prescriptions/insurance approvals. The warehouses will have been cleaned out by blackmarketeers by then, though. And those mobs with and without guns. But you make miniMark "loug," so there is that.; 7/31/12, 11:56 AM
Anonymous said...: Darrell, is your brother Darrell the nice brother? Did your mother favor him over you? Poor sad widdle Darrell, #2.; 7/31/12, 12:33 PM
Darrell said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 7/31/12, 12:46 PM
Anonymous said...: And Darrell, "lougging" is quite fun, you should try it, it may help you stop your nasty dirty smoking habit and you wouldn't be so oppositionally defiant, have brighter whiter teeth and a sweeter countenance.

No charge, free medical advice.; 7/31/12, 12:49 PM
Darrell said...: Go back to where we concluded that intelligent people know the Newhart character was Darryl. Take miniMark with you.

Your husband did drink that tea you made, didn't he?; 7/31/12, 12:50 PM
Anonymous said...: See what I mean? My husband would've "lougged" his ass off at you and told me to ignore you, just like that sexy hunk of a man Bagoh20 did.

Oh I forgot to thank Mn Mark for his support, I'm ahead Darrell, where's your buddy Revenant? Looks like he abandoned you in your hour of need.; 7/31/12, 12:56 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Well, all of that was entertaining. However, several methods of medication/health issues will be important in an extended collapse of supply in the event of a catastrophe.

Stock up on OTC medications, vitamins and other medical supplies. Keep a 6 month to 1 year supply on hand (at least) and keep using the oldest supplies now. Rotating the supplies. Same goes for food.

Learn what natural plants and remedies you have in your area. Take some field courses and get hands on. There are undoubtedly organizations in your area of dedicated naturalists and botany geeks. Get some botanical books. Stock up on those herbs that may not be able to be grown in your area. Freeze in airtight containers.

For those unfortunate to have REAL medical necessity like thyroid, insulin dependent. I'm sorry. Stock up as much as you can. Find a black market dealer and pay cash now.

Unfortunately, attrition will happen and the ill or weak will not survive. It is Darwin's way.; 7/31/12, 1:26 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: For instance. Start out with this now. Why not. Why wait for the apocalypse.

Horehound. Candy, tea, growing, uses; 7/31/12, 1:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Great advice and link DBQ.; 7/31/12, 1:50 PM
Darrell said...: ...where's your buddy Revenant?

You do have reading comprehension/ intelligence issues, don't you? It's been already established that I never supported Revenant before. Except he was right this time. Are you that small that you can't admit to fucking up, to giving advice to rely on homeopaths and naturopaths that could get someone killed? Then compounding it by referring to these bullshit arts as established science and medicine? Science professionals don't make mistakes like that.; 7/31/12, 1:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Oy vey Darrell. Are you In the Autism Spectrum?; 7/31/12, 2:09 PM
Anonymous said...: And Darrell, please point to the comment in which I recommend relying on Naturopaths and Homepaths. Now you have to make shit up? Pathetic.

You know what they say about most Engineer types don't you? It would make a lot of sense.; 7/31/12, 2:28 PM
MnMark said...: Darrell, talking down to a woman by telling her that what she wrote is "cute" is just being a dick. I haven't read anything on here by you before this thread but I hope you're not a conservative because we don't need people like you on our side. What is it about homeopathy that put a bug up your ass about it anyway? Who cares if some people want to experiment with it? Or do you just think everyone in the world needs to think like you, or they need to be put in their place?; 7/31/12, 3:40 PM
Anonymous said...: MnMark, he's been hounding me for months now, I don't know what his schtick is, but he usually jumps on board someone else's bash wagon, not too original, nor is he creative, lacks a sense of humor, sadly he's one of yours, a conservative, my sympathies Mark. I'm glad there are those like you, Bagoh02, Patrick, Tradguy, Chickelit, Pogo, Michael K, Carnifex, St. Croix and others to represent conservatives here at Althouse.; 7/31/12, 4:19 PM
Darrell said...: Oop said-- ...please point to the comment in which I recommend relying on Naturopaths and Homepaths...

Doctors, nurses, homeopaths, farmers, carpenters, masons, anyone with some of the old skills...

Homeopaths may have knowledge of some substances found in nature, do they not?

Naturopathic and homeopathic medicine, it may be all that's left after the apocalypse, reject it in favor of what?

If you can't see a problem with someone who has presented themself as a medical professional endorsing a thoroughly-debunked sham selling water to seriously ill patients in need if real medical care, then there is no need to continue. What about casual readers, remembering her stated background, following this dangerous advice? Oop is someone who has started insult fests with regulars like Pogo and DBQ and has removed herself from any deferential treatment. Note the little game she is playing in trying to get me banned, or my comments deleted, by saying that I only engage in personal attacks and duplicative comments when the record [permanent comments] shows otherwise. Respond to my comment or not. Playing politics with the management makes you appear even weaker.

And miniMark, the "how cute" was in reference to the quaint notion that there still will be order--prescriptions and insurance reimbursements--when society fails, which is the premise for this thread. It was not a reference to Ms Oop. Up your game unless you want a permanent job as the Oop buttmonkey. Although you do seem suited for that.; 8/1/12, 2:25 AM
Anonymous said...: Darrell, get you banned or deleted? LMAO. now you are crossing over to feelings of persecution? You? Life has a funny way of turning things around on ya to teach you a lesson.

Darrell, of course there will be no prescriptions or pharmacies after the collapse, I believe everyone speaking of stockpiling before the fact and it would be difficult to do so, even before.

Darrell, you need to let this thing you have about me go, it's not healthy. I don't want to be mean to you and say, no wonder you have only 9 Facebook friends and some are doubles. Smile dude, life is short, then there is the Apokalypse and ya die.; 8/1/12, 7:09 AM