Althouse: German court says a boy's right to physical integrity trumps his parents' religious interest in having him circumcised.

June 27, 2012

German court says a boy's right to physical integrity trumps his parents' religious interest in having him circumcised.

Jewish and Muslim groups are reportedly outraged.

276 comments:

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Gabriel Hanna said...: So my question for myself is, if I am okay with other parents circumcising their kids (because if it does no good, at least it does no harm, and some people think it's important), then why I am NOT ok with some parents cutting their kids' heads on the Day of Ashura?

If I'm honest with myself, it's because circumcision has been accepted in our culture for centuries, at least for some of us. And the Day of Ashura is most emphatically not, it's weird and freaky and messed-up, and if parents want to do that they need to move somewhere where people are okay with it.

But courts will not reason this way, they seem to always need some objective principle. And I think many of us are uncomfortable giving this kind of reason--that one is sick and wrong because we've always thought so, and the other is ok because we always thought so.; 6/27/12, 8:15 PM
Anonymous said...: See what a great thread this is? Twice now, sincere apologies! How often does that happen?

GROUP HUG!; 6/27/12, 8:19 PM
traditionalguy said...: Enfant circumcision is not a fight.

Now enfant baptism is a real fight.

It is funny that the Pauline Christianity overcame a hardliner Jewish-Christian fight to allow its Greek converts to be admitted without circumncising them first.

But today admitting enfant baptised adults still causes similar interecine fights among Christian sects.

It's all good.; 6/27/12, 8:20 PM
Saint Croix said...: I appreciate the group hug! I was thinking maybe I should take a break as I've been cranky lately.; 6/27/12, 8:24 PM
Anonymous said...: Naw St. Croix, it would be boooooring without you. It's hard being Saintly, huh?; 6/27/12, 8:28 PM
Revenant said...: Common sense and simple decency often mean keeping your disagreements with religion out of the realm of the law.

Often, sure. But have you ever heard the expression "your right to swing your fist ends at the other person's nose"? Well, your right to swing a scapel ends at the innocent child's genitals.

Freedom -- religious freedom or any other sort -- does not encompass the freedom to do things to OTHER people. If you're going to do something to another person there needs to be a rock-solid reason for it, not just "I feel it is the right thing to do" or "we've always done it this way".; 6/27/12, 8:31 PM
ken in tx said...: Almost all my family have been Protestant Christians since at least the 1780s—some were Unitarians. All the males have been circumcised. A Catholic girl from New Jersey saw my penis when the boy's room door was open, and started telling people I was Jewish. This was in elementary school. I don't know how she knew the difference. This was a mystery to me then. She was an obnoxious bitch in other ways.; 6/27/12, 8:38 PM
wyo sis said...: To a religious person religion is a rock solid reason. How you or the state feel about it doesn't come into it.; 6/27/12, 8:39 PM
Gabriel Hanna said...: @Revenant: "there needs to be a rock-solid reason for it"

What's your rock solid reason for banning polygamy or consensual, adult incest?; 6/27/12, 8:41 PM
Gabriel Hanna said...: @Revenant: it's really a rhetorical question but I will bet $5 to the charity of your choice that what ever "rational" argument you give against consensual adult incest I can poke a hole in it.

You and I are on the same page most of the time. Have you read Hans Reichenbach on moral posits? If not I think you ought to check it out, and then you'll see where I'm coming from really.; 6/27/12, 8:44 PM
ken in tx said...: Here's what I remember about her. I don't remember her name but I remember she was from Newark and had a big nose. One day we were supposed to not be talking during class and she kept talking to me, and I said, 'Shut up'. I got sent to the office for saying that. When I got back, I found she had gone through my desk and taken several things. I hit her in the stomach and got sent to office again. Now I realize she had a crush on me.; 6/27/12, 8:58 PM
Anonymous said...: Well Ken after seeing your manhood, she was smitten.; 6/27/12, 9:02 PM
wyo sis said...: ken
There's always a dirty girl who knows more than she should. The big nose explains a lot. From 20+ years of teaching I can tell you in girldom if you can't charm the object of your affection you get down and dirty. It works with enough guys that it gets reinforced.; 6/27/12, 9:13 PM
Anonymous said...: Yeah Ken, listen to Wyo Sis. She knows things, she's one of those sexy librarians. I won't comment on the size of her nose, that would be rude and I have never seen it.; 6/27/12, 9:18 PM
Eric said...: Lack of male circumcision has also been associated with sexually transmitted genital ulcer disease and chlamydia, infant urinary tract infections, penile cancer, and cervical cancer in female partners of uncircumcised men.

Gah! Nothing like having a doctor around to ruin the mood.; 6/27/12, 9:22 PM
wyo sis said...: Ken
You did say the girl had a big nose didn't you?; 6/27/12, 9:33 PM
Anonymous said...: What's eating you Sis? Why be passive aggressive, be honest. You are so transparent. Are you showing Ken your Christian traits?; 6/27/12, 9:43 PM
Eric said...: If you're going to do something to another person there needs to be a rock-solid reason for it, not just "I feel it is the right thing to do" or "we've always done it this way".

I disagree. "We've always done it this way" is a perfectly acceptable reason to do something from a legal perspective, especially when it comes to family and children. It's not the state's job to dictate culture.; 6/27/12, 9:44 PM
wyo sis said...: Using transparency to point out transparency.; 6/27/12, 9:51 PM
Revenant said...: o a religious person religion is a rock solid reason. How you or the state feel about it doesn't come into it.

Of course it does. The primary reason for having a state is to prevent innocent people from being harmed by others.

It is the religious person's belief that "doesn't come into it". Take a knife to your own crotch, if you feel so strongly it is the right thing to do. But hands off the innocents.; 6/27/12, 9:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Fair enough Sis, if you have an issue with me, that's fine, just be honest, I appreciate it. I don't need you to like me, doesn't make any difference in my level of happiness and the grand scheme of things.; 6/27/12, 9:55 PM
Revenant said...: It's not the state's job to dictate culture.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

- General Charles Napier, in response to a suggestion that government had no business dictating culture; 6/27/12, 9:58 PM
wyo sis said...: Your constant innuendo is boring and transparent. Your happiness isn't my concern.; 6/27/12, 10:06 PM
wyo sis said...: There is no harm here. I thought that had already been discussed. There is no more harm than having dental work and there may be less pain.; 6/27/12, 10:08 PM
Anonymous said...: Wyo Sis, want a hug? I think you need one. :); 6/27/12, 10:09 PM
wyo sis said...: Funny how quickly you recognized yourself Oop.; 6/27/12, 10:10 PM
Anonymous said...: Wyo Sis, you would be so much more likeable if you weren't so moralistic and grumpy. Do you remember what it was like to have a bit of fun?; 6/27/12, 10:14 PM
Revenant said...: There is no harm here. I thought that had already been discussed.

If you mean there's no harm in forbidding people from circumcizing infants then I would agree.

If you mean there's no harm in taking a knife to someone else's crotch, well, that's just silly.; 6/27/12, 10:14 PM
wyo sis said...: I'm not here to be likeable. If I sound grumpy that's OK. I am a little grumpy with juvenile tactics that I see every day with 12 year old kids.
I get it with kids, it's a developmental thing, but it's just plain annoying in an adult woman.; 6/27/12, 10:20 PM
wyo sis said...: My son had Ankyloglossia the doctor clipped it. Is that within my right as a parent? What about slitting the gums so a tooth can grow?; 6/27/12, 10:25 PM
Anonymous said...: Oh well, can't please all the people all the time, too much frowning and you will get wrinkles between your lovely eyes, ya know.

And since you do not dictate my behavior at this forum, I suggest you skip over my comments if they annoy you instead of lame passive aggressive childish shit. Now you are boring me.; 6/27/12, 10:31 PM
Revenant said...: Why wouldn't it be?; 6/27/12, 10:33 PM
wyo sis said...: You asked for transparency you got it. No more need for passive aggressive.; 6/27/12, 10:34 PM
Anonymous said...: OK, here's some clarity for you Sis, get fucked, it appears you need it.; 6/27/12, 10:39 PM
wyo sis said...: A (gasp) knife! How about a cyst or a sliver or a hernia can a parent authorize a doctor approaching a child's crotch with a medical instrument in those cases?; 6/27/12, 10:39 PM
wyo sis said...: Now the true character shines through. Very likeable.; 6/27/12, 10:39 PM
wyo sis said...: So, we're clear here you're a slut I'm a frigid bitch. Proceed.; 6/27/12, 10:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Ah but I don't need you to like me, as I said it makes no difference to me, Grumpy Sis. :); 6/27/12, 10:43 PM
Anonymous said...: I'm sure this is getting boring to the other commenters here and how silly. Good grief.; 6/27/12, 10:45 PM
wyo sis said...: Yep silly, but tons of fun. ;); 6/27/12, 10:51 PM
Revenant said...: A (gasp) knife! How about a cyst or a sliver or a hernia can a parent authorize a doctor approaching a child's crotch with a medical instrument in those cases?

Sure, necessary medical procedures obviously aren't harm (although Christian Scientists would disagree).

Question for you, though. If my religious beliefs tell me it is necessary, can I tattoo the word "twit" on your forehead without asking your permission? Under the rules you've offered here, the answer is "yes" -- the state has no right to forbid me from acting on my religious beliefs, even if it means I'm acting on another person.

Hm. Come to think of it, somewhere in my bookmarks I have a news clipping of a father who repeatedly raped his daughter because God told him it was okay. There's probably still time for you to donate to his legal defense fund. :)

But let's be realistic. You haven't actually put any thought into the things you're saying. You had your son circumsized, and therefore your self-image requires you to believe that wasn't a bad thing to do. Therefore you aren't going to believe it was a bad thing to do.; 6/27/12, 10:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Atta girl! That's good clean moral Christian fun. Wyo sis lettin' her hair down! I like it.

I knew ya had in in you, deep down.

OK can the commenters if there are any left get back to the topic? Are you done now, all out of your system?; 6/27/12, 10:56 PM
wyo sis said...: What is clear here is you don't have a problem with parents making medical decisions for their children (not random strangers, not crimes) as a practice, but as a religious practice. If it were only a medical issue whether or not I had my child circumcized would not concern you or the government.; 6/27/12, 11:05 PM
Nichevo said...: Revenant, just curious. Is infant male circumcision such a key issue to you that you are willing to die to prevent it?

Because I would certainly be willing to kill you if you tried to interfere. No problem. I'll light up a Pall Mall and wait for the blues to take me away.

I won't condescend to defend the practice as evidently you are fanatical to suck on dirty smegmatic foreskins or something and will not be convinced. Just know that all your vile jabber will not solve the issue, at least how you want it solved, and you would really be better off letting it rest.

Jimbino is a troll and can be ignored, he has a political hobbyhorse or two aside from his perversions. Palladian I will hope is motivated by some innocent artistic impulse, but would be best also keeping this particular opinion to himself.

Because I will walk through all your bloods to observe the covenants of my people. Go suck somebody else's dirty dick. Or, as the prochoicers like to say, if you don't like circumcisions, don't have one.

You don't have to like that, you don't have to understand it, but you should respect it in the sense that you should make your will before you seriously, IRL, go there. I would think it no different than killing Nazis. AFAIC there would be no difference. Don't say I didn't warn you.

San Francisco got walked back from the brink. Germany, I've seen German porn, I'm not interested in their opinions on anything whatsoever with the possible exception of machinery. I guess they need to keep being reminded about the Second World War and that they lost it and nobody cares what the fuck they think.

Norway banning kosher practices, fuck Norway, they don't like the best, most hygienic and humane way to slaughter meat without a bolt gun but they don't mind their daughters being halal meat for Muslim rape gangs. I hope that Breivik gets off. Probably everybody he shot thought that all a splendid idea.

...Back to the topic, Professor, obviously somebody will have to fix Germany, they are broken. What is the legal process to overturn this, if you understand their legal system?; 6/27/12, 11:07 PM
wyo sis said...: All out of my system. We've cleared the air and we don't have to read each others comments unless we are OK with being annoyed by them.
See why my family and students love me in spite of my grumpiness?; 6/27/12, 11:08 PM
Anonymous said...: OKY DOKY Sis, we are both loved by our families and friends despite ourselves, so we are both blessed. Hug?; 6/27/12, 11:17 PM
wyo sis said...: Sure hug. (I have this thing about getting in the last word.) Not that I'm a fanatic about it or anything.; 6/27/12, 11:19 PM
Revenant said...: What is clear here is you don't have a problem with parents making medical decisions for their children

Close, but not quite. What I said was that it wasn't wrong to perform necessary medical procedures on children.

Like I said at the start, this isn't about what the parents want. Your children are in your care, but that doesn't mean you own them.; 6/27/12, 11:22 PM
Nichevo said...: Oh and as for those who care what Muslims do to themselves, know that "proper" female circumcision, i.e. the only kind that could possibly be justified by religion - and somebody remind me of Koran or hadith on that, if any exists - refers only to a subtle ablation of the clitoral hood. The barbarous deviations from this practice are no doubt at base superstition, social control and low IQ. Further proof is that typical FGM is done in the teen years, usually furtively and often brutally, unsanitarily, mindlessly.

If you are concerned with some legal hypocrisy, permit only regulated forms of the practice, male or female, according to AMA guidelines or whatever. There are no mohels out there trying to shut down a boy's future. And it should be obvious that due to the plasticity of infant tissue and memory, infancy is the only really good time to do thus procedure.

The Shiite traditions of mutilation mean nothing to me. I am merely not pleased that bloody children should be seen in public. That aside the occasional bloodletting is indeed conducive to health and long life. Which is why everybody should go give blood from time to time.; 6/27/12, 11:22 PM
wyo sis said...: What if I believe it's cute and fun to pierce my babies ear? Should the government get involved?; 6/27/12, 11:24 PM
wyo sis said...: Tell the owning thing to a person on the way to get an abortion.; 6/27/12, 11:26 PM
Revenant said...: Revenant: it's really a rhetorical question but I will bet $5 to the charity of your choice that what ever "rational" argument you give against consensual adult incest I can poke a hole in it.

I don't think the government should ban any consensual adult sexual activity, however gross and psychologically messed-up it may be.

You can make that check out to Gary Johnson's political campaign. I realize it isn't technically a charity, but since he hasn't got a prayer in hell of winning I think it counts. :); 6/27/12, 11:29 PM
Revenant said...: Tell the owning thing to a person on the way to get an abortion.

My support for abortion is based on not believing a fetus is a person until the brain develops circa the seventh month.

The only "ownership" that enters into it is the woman's ownership of her own body.; 6/27/12, 11:35 PM
Revenant said...: Revenant, just curious. Is infant male circumcision such a key issue to you that you are willing to die to prevent it? Because I would certainly be willing to kill you if you tried to interfere.

Nah, you're just another Internet Tough Guy. If the practice was banned here and people started going to jail for it, all we'd see out of you would be more talk.

Your fascination with uncircumcized child fellatio is a little weird, though. It makes me wonder if the police won't be paying you a visit for entirely different child-related reasons. :); 6/27/12, 11:40 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: I think an impassioned debate on this topic is the silliest exercise in fatuity imaginable (an informed discussion is slightly better).

However, I'm wondering how opinions on this chat board would change if we were to refer to circumcisions as "foreskin abortions". Where would the lines in the proverbial sand be drawn if that were the term of reference?; 6/27/12, 11:45 PM
wyo sis said...: It depends, do you like the words pro choice or pro abortion. How about pro fetus murder?; 6/27/12, 11:48 PM
Nichevo said...: You go ahead and believe that if you like, but all you'll do is talk, and that's fine. You go ahead and talk.

And since you'll never actually lift a finger to interfere, I agree it will not actually become necessary to deal with you. But your inability to understand people outside of those existing in your head might explain why libertarians don't get what they want but are the punk emo goth town-pump sluts of politics.; 6/27/12, 11:50 PM
wyo sis said...: Conveniently, Revenant, I believe the foreskin isn't fully developed until the child is a month old.; 6/27/12, 11:51 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: That's cold, but you said you were frigid. How about "embryo fetishists"?; 6/27/12, 11:53 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Blastocyst adulators?; 6/27/12, 11:54 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Cellular solace-seekers?; 6/27/12, 11:55 PM
Nichevo said...: Turmoil, question in all sincerity. Is it possible for you to not be an ass?

Doh, stupid Android spellcheck made "Ritmo" into Turmoil. Apt really.; 6/27/12, 11:55 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Chill out, dude. Don't you have your own argument to pursue? And never let a computer do your thinking (or spelling) for you.

I've got a bunch more of these, anyway. Wyo was obviously up for it. Game on.; 6/27/12, 11:57 PM
wyo sis said...: Speaking of silly exercises in fatuity.
But, In spite of my desire to have the last word I'm off to bed where my husband will soon feel very chilly.; 6/27/12, 11:58 PM
Anonymous said...: O Turmoil Segundo.; 6/27/12, 11:59 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: You almost say that with a touch of pride...

Word games are better than semantic games. Much less circuitous.; 6/28/12, 12:00 AM
Anonymous said...: You go girl, get on your nasty!; 6/28/12, 12:01 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/28/12, 12:02 AM
Revenant said...: It depends, do you like the words pro choice or pro abortion. How about pro fetus murder?

Reminds me of the PETA types I've encountered who compare the cattle industry to the Holocaust.; 6/28/12, 12:17 AM
Gene said...: There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%.

Hell, it reduces the risk of heterosexuality entirely.; 6/28/12, 1:29 AM
Gene said...: Because I would certainly be willing to kill you if you tried to interfere. No problem. I'll light up a Pall Mall and wait for the blues to take me away.

Great. Now we got people threatening to kill other posters here over circumcision.; 6/28/12, 1:33 AM
Grant Michael McKenna said...: New Zealand has high rates of STIs and unintended pregnancies compared to other countries. http://www.cph.co.nz/About-Us/Sexual-Health/; 6/28/12, 2:27 AM
Nichevo said...: Gene, maybe that's because it's an intensely personal decision that some internet loudmouths, and some ill-thinking governments, seem to feel free to meddle with sans consequences.

OT: Should we help the Goog and give good numbers for captcha, or not? Hate to be helping eat out Burmese dissidents or whatever.; 6/28/12, 6:42 AM
Nichevo said...: OT, that's "rat out." Really must watch the typing on this phone.; 6/28/12, 6:44 AM
Nichevo said...: Also Gene your first comment makes no sense.; 6/28/12, 6:46 AM
Gabriel Hanna said...: @Revenant:I don't think the government should ban any consensual adult sexual activity, however gross and psychologically messed-up it may be.

Well, since you didn't argue against adult incest, you didn't win the bet. But there was already $5 headed that way.

If you wanted to convince most of your countrymen that pure reason can provide morality, by saying that incest should be legal, you've failed. They won't accept moral reasoning that requires them to tolerate incest.; 6/28/12, 11:58 AM