The NY Post reports:
Hines also had struck up friendships with two of Mary’s best friends, Kerry Kennedy and Glenn Close, according to her tweets.
The “Curb Your Enthusiasm” blonde even tweeted about talking football with Mary and Bobby Jr.’s 11-year-old son, Aiden....
Throughout Hines’ Twitter tear, Mary was isolated in her Bedford mansion, drowning in sorrow, alcohol and debt....
“She faced losing her kids, and his relationship with Cheryl Hines was humiliating. At an event last month, he walked the red carpet with Cheryl as a couple and took the kids,” a source told The Post last week, referring to the Riverkeeper Annual Fisherman’s Ball in late April.
She didn't curb her enthusiasm.
Posts
123 comments:
She sounds like a witch. And probably not too bright considering how poorly things seem to work out for Kennedy women.
Oh but he is a 'Kennedy'!
Gad, what trash they are.
But I'm sure that Hines was so happy with her new man, shouldn't we all have been happy for her? Why spoil the fun by thinking about the ruin left behind?
Just another day in the Kennedy War On Women.
Aren't liberal social values so compassionate!
So caring!
So loving!
So concerned with the person!
Not like those hateful controlling prudes from the churches.
I mean, I'm sorry that a discarded woman is alone with a soul full of devastation.
But she has Roe v. Wade to comfort her! Isn't that enough?
She can buy a Prius to console her!
We're working hard to reach her with free birth control!
At least old Joe Kennedy couldn't tweet his affairs, though he did his best to let Rose know what he was up to.
Why doesn't she just go get a job rather than take her life?
IT was the American left that made that possible.
Why is she so ungrateful?
When you only have one claim to fame, it's not very useful if you don't publicize it...
On the bright side, at least Ms. Hines didn't put that surreptitious sex video on the internet.
When Ben Stone was ADA on "Law & Order" he would've brought them both up on "depraved indifference".
Poor Mary. Discarded by the man who bore the name of her obsession and forced to confront reality, easily replaced by a younger version who believed in the fantasy she no longer believed.
Was Hines so self-absorbed that she did not think her giddy and public celebration would have no effect on the woman left behind?
If Mary was gay, would Hines get
30 days
and community service?
Was Hines so self-absorbed that she did not think her giddy and public celebration would have no effect on the woman left behind?
An actress being self-absorbed? I can NOT believe that!
Were they separated then?
Otherwise walking a red carpet with another woman is pretty much beyond the pale.
Hines is such a hottie, hotties can do whatever they want.
I fear this thread is the on-line equivalent to supermarket checkout line tabloids.
I mean I am sorry for Ms Kennedy's suicide, (or self murder or whatever the term)--Can actress Hines be not far behind? (and who the hell is she?:)
Was Hines so self-absorbed that she did not think her giddy and public celebration would have no effect on the woman left behind?
Need you ask?
This is American leftism: to strictly forbid the wild west in matters of money (might hurt someone), but promote the wild west in matters of human relationships and deep personal emotion.
I take no joy in the death of this woman, the destruction of two marriages and the harm that has been inflicted on the former spouses and the children from these marriages.
Wow, I went to look at the picture and some of Hines's hotness is gone...
Hines is such a hottie
...maybe 10 years ago. Now? Not so much.
Hines was probably indeed that self-absorbed, but when you get down to it, he made the promises, he had the obligations, not the bim actress.
I've never really understood the "other woman" obsessions for that reason. Yeah, she could have been more kind, but she never promised anything; it's an "extra credit" on the moral scale, whereas to the ex-partner it is a root level call - an obligation to his spouse, his kids, and any God he believes in.
I have to say I'm put off by the attempt to blame Hines for this.
Mary Kennedy was an addict who, like most addicts, alienated the people around her. That was the sole cause of her problems.
(the other kev)
Larry David can sure pick 'em.
"If Mary was gay, would Hines get 30 days and community service?"
Yeah, I was just saying to Meade that Hines is the new Dharun Ravi.
So does this qualify as "online bullying"? Self absorbed actors and politicians being self absorbed: shocking...
The adultery laws were there for a reason: to prevent murders.
The degree of hurt and destruction that arises from a spouse you have given your life to who walks out and takes another lover in public before the divorce is final will often lead to a death. In this case the dead person was mis-targeted.
I have no particular brief for Cheryl Hines, but come on. Mary Kennedy was a deeply troubled woman. Nobody was responsible for her death except Mary Kennedy herself. (I'll leave aside the question of whether she or Robert Kennedy Jr. was more responsible for the breakup of their marriage because none of us has a clue.)
After the marriage broke up, Mary was entitled to pursue new attachments, and so was Robert. Neither of them was obliged to keep their new relationships a secret. More to the point, Cheryl Hines shouldn't have had to skulk around in the shadows or avoid conversations with Kennedy's children. She didn't do anything wrong.
I waited on Cheryl Hines once.
If Mary didn't know what marrying a Kennedy entailed she should have. JFK and his relationships should have been the tipoff.
My joy at being a single childfree male is tempered by the fact that I have to keep reading about all the millions of married, divorcing breeders and the misery they love to share.
Hines was probably indeed that self-absorbed, but when you get down to it, he made the promises, he had the obligations, not the bim actress.
1) If you help someone cheat on their spouse, you’re not blameless.
2) Hines filed for divorce from her husband of eight years the month after Kennedy did.
Mary Kennedy was a deeply troubled woman. Nobody was responsible for her death except Mary Kennedy herself.
A truly compassionate society protects the weak, until they can be strong.
Our society is increasingly grinding up the weak, while we celebrate a bloated, intrusive, meddling, controlling federal government that claims it is for the weak.
Why don't' we just get rid of the federal government as caretaker of the weak, and let's all personally take care of the one to two next door.
Or the ones in our own family.
I thought it appeared almost traitorous to his kids for Joe Kennedy [who I excuse somewhat because I really believe he is a moron] to move to the West Coast when he had 4 young kids on the East Coast.
That said, living with an alcoholic can be hell.
I waited on Cheryl Hines once.
This would have been better, then, if your brother had originally linked to the story, You Mom linked to that, and then you made the comment. Full Althouse Circle. (Has that ever happened?)
BTW, Cheryl baby. Recognize that this relationship (with a Kennedy)is a temporary thing. When gravity starts to intrude on your hotness it's "Bye Bye", and a new hottie will take your place. She's probably in the wings right now.
My joy at being a single childfree male is tempered by the fact that I have to keep reading about all the millions of married, divorcing breeders and the misery they love to share.
You must be a barrel of laughs to be around.
It all seems to be part of the entitlement society. I want what you have therefore you have it unfairly therefore I feel fully justified in taking it from you because it's not fair otherwise. Just be fair and all will be well. What could possibly go wrong?
A truly compassionate society protects the weak, until they can be strong.
Within reason. Do you feel the same way about Dharun Ravi?
I waited on Cheryl Hines once.
From appearances it seems that Cheryl Hines waits for no one.
You must be a barrel of laughs to be around.
He's a single-issue commenter, like CrackMC and that guy who likes women with unwashed pubic hair, except the latter two commenters are occasionally amusing.
wow jimbino! I assume you must have been hatched in a tube.
A truly compassionate society protects the weak, until they can be strong.
Within reason. Do you feel the same way about Dharun Ravi?
I do, about both Clementi and Ravi.
What I see happening is that we're taking out all speed bumps and socially enforced impediments to early bad behavior and beefing up strict punishments later for excessive bad behavior.
People metaphorically drive with few if any speed bumps, gain a head of speed, then suddenly find they've driven off a cliff, for which we make them die, either socially or in prison.
That's not compassion.
We have a social duty to warn early.
What Ravi did should not have led to charges, but he's a d-bag.
So Hines is not like Ravi until she is charged and convicted, which she won't be because neither gayness nor race is involved.
Yes, Mary Kennendy was responsible for her own death, caused in part by her twin addictions to alcohol and to a fantasy Camelot life.
Don't follow a Twitter feed if you will be upset by what they are saying.
Don't follow a Twitter feed.
Mary Richardson Kennedy married Robert Kennedy ONE MONTH after he divorced his first wife. While suicide is a terrible thing, she wasn't clueless about Robert's predilections as she had been the other woman!
Why does anyone want to date a Kennedy? I'm not seeing it.
My favorite piece of the article in the Post was the remark about American Express. They dropped the suit for $32K against her after her death. Impliedly, because it was the right thing to do.
In reality, they have to drop the suit. She can no longer be a party to it.
If she had will, an executor or executrix will be appointed and American Express can file a claim against the estate with them.
If she didn't have a will, the law of NY state will provide for appointment of an administrator and American Express can file a claim against the estate with them.
Since the suit existed before she died, the account was probably closed and she had been getting collection communication for months. Credit card companies typically get to about 180DPD before filing suit.
If her fears about the financial result of being divorced from RFK, III were founded, it may be because she signed a pre-nuptial agreement that was very stingy. If there was full financial disclosure and an opportunity for her to consult counsel before entering into the pre-nup (or even post-nup), it would most likely be upheld, even if it seems incredibly unfair a decade and a half later.
So the Post gets to give you a whiff of American Express “doing the right thing” in dropping the suit after her death, when in fact it's the only thing they could do. And there is no effort to point out that the $32K that will most likely be written off, is simply transferred to other cardholders, in the form of a higher interest rate or annual fees. Thanks Mary!
Robert Kennedy Jr adds a new definition to "Useless life." Maybe he could have fixed his ex-wife up with Hugo.
Being a man, I can tell you unequivocally that none of us is worth killing yourself over.
A good cat fight is preferred and welcome.
Being a man, I can tell you unequivocally that none of us is worth killing yourself over.
What about the Jesus / Judas thing?
We are assuming that Mary followed Hines' tweets, and we really don't know if she did, do we? But if she was obsessed with Camelot and the Kennedy fantasy, as it appears she was, telling her not to follow Robert's new squeeze's accounts is like trying to fix the person with OCD by simply telling them to stop the fixation. They would if they could, but they can't. That's why they are in trouble.
Palladian said...
I waited on Cheryl Hines once.
From appearances it seems that Cheryl Hines waits for no one.
_____________________________
Thread winner and ,so far, post of the week.
She didn't curb her enthusiasm.
It's a shame they don't mention Hines' current show; a pun on "Suburgatory" relative to a woman's suicide could have been quite awful.
Now I can't watch anything with Cheryl Hines in it, because I will always see "Cheryl Hines" and not the character. (And I will always see the loathesome Mr. Kennedy on her arm.) The first celebrity I had this problem with was Robin Williams.
Shit, RFK Jr's uncles knew how to get rid of them a lot cleaner than this.
One was even fully washed.
"A man who divorces his wife to marry his mistress creates a vacancy at both positions." - proverb
I feel so sorry for those children, being raised among these soulless cretins. As if their parents' divorce, their mother's substance abuse, and their father's bimbo girlfriend sucking up to them while their mother's "friends" looked on approvingly weren't enough to ruin them, now they have the devastation of their mother's suicide. Those poor kids have zero chance of living normal lives.
"Has anybody here seen my old wife Mary?
Can you tell me where she's gone?
She drank a lot of ripple,
But it seems the good they die young.
You know, I just looked around and she's gone.
Anybody here seen my old friend Emily ?
Can you tell me where she's gone?
She gave birth to two people,
But we got married too young.
I just divorced her and she's gone.
Anybody here seen my old friend Cheryl?
Can you tell me where she's gone?
She tweeted a lot of people,
But it seems the hotties fade young.
I just looked 'round and she's gone."
"What about the Jesus / Judas thing?"
Jesus, You know I knew a Kennedy, and you sir are no Kennedy.
You know she was mentally ill if she killed herself over a Kennedy seeing another woman. Isn't permission for that granted in the modified vows at the wedding?
I believe the Kennedy generic wedding vows include the pharses "I do" and "Hahaha"
Why does anyone want to date a Kennedy? I'm not seeing it.
The phrase "CHA-CHING!" comes to mind.
We don't doubt what Hines is. The only debate is how much she must be paid to give it up.
She didn't curb her enthusiasm.
She preferred six feet under.
So how is this different from the last suicide case we are discussing.
"Was Hines so self-absorbed that she did not think her giddy and public celebration would have no effect on the woman left behind?"
Similar to the giddy exposure of the gay guy in the dorm room and Ravi was excoriated for driving the other young man to suicide.
Can we heap piles of blame on Hines for driving poor Mary over the cliff and contributing to HER suicide?
At what point are people who kill themselves responsible for their own actions and at what point do we cast blame on someone else?
Why does anyone want to date a Kennedy? I'm not seeing it.
Exactly.
Also, stay away from anyone associated with "Curb Your Enthusiasm".
It's just weird how troublesome both the real Mrs Larry David and the fake Mrs Larry David turned out to be.
In general, social media must be horrible for people with children and a spouse/former spouse in a new relationship.
I was just talking about this with my husband. I have a friend who is separated and in a new relationship, and she frequently posts pictures of her young son and her "new love". It must just kill her husband to watch her try to create this new family.
Terrible situation all around. The way the story is written, though, it makes it seem like Hines wanted/encouraged Mary to melt down. I guess I'm just seeing an implied intentionality in the article that I don't buy as realistic.
Totally self-absorbed, sociopathic Hines? THAT, i buy.
And bagoh20 is definitely right. To riff off the old feminist saying, a woman killing herself over one of us is like a fish killing itself over a bicycle.
Can we heap piles of blame on Hines for driving poor Mary over the cliff and contributing to HER suicide?
If an interested party was to bring criminal charges, what could be the basis? And wouldn't both Kennedy and Hines be a party?
MayBee,
I've seen that situation too. It is very strange being the "friend" of both in that case as well.
People everywhere and almost instantly, it seems, went "whole hog" with social media, when we probably should have gone more like 1/8 the distance. Zuckerberg's claim that Privacy is a relic of the past, only is true because we make it true. Not because of his smug faux intellectual ass.
So how is this different from the last suicide case we are discussing.
Oh, I don't know, maybe because this involves someone posting electronic messages about their new boyfriend and the Tyler Clementi case involved someone making a secret video recording of a private sexual encounter and sharing it with people for a laugh?
Maybe it's just my weird perspective of life that makes the two seem different...
I seem to recall that Hines is a huge Greenie, demanding carbon rationing, moral imperative of cutting back, etc. then it was revealed that her Hollywood palace had 12-car garage full of Mercedes, Rolls-Royces, etc.
Why Kerry Kennedy, Mary's supposed life long friend, would post pictures of Bobby, Cheryl and Glenn Close is beyond me. Also not clear why Close would pose for the pictures.
Could it be that their publicity whoredom overcame their loyalty (do they have any?) to Mary. Even Hines had some sort of duty, just out of human kindness, even though she was not a friend of Mary's.
It is one think to recognize that a friend's marriage is over and try to forge a relationship with the new man or woman in their life. People are faced with that issue all the time.
It is quite another thing to be completely insensitive to one of the divorcing partners while forging the new relationship. How about a little discretion, people.
All of that said, Mary Kennedy had the biggest role in her own unhappiness, and only Mary is responsible for her suicide.
Smilin' Jack for the win!
No one is saying anything about what Mary did to Cheryl.
There was a very violent act committed, which is deeply wounding Cheryl and may very well have been specifically intended to have that effect.
Does the suicide have no responsibility?
Suicide is always a violent act on the living, one where they cannot hit back, creating a wound that never heals.
Its a great evil, even for that reason alone.
The suicide has complete responsibility both for her own murder (in the olden days a "mortal" sin) and the disruption and pain left behind. That the pain might be well deserved is unimportant. The religious prohibitions against suicide and the gravity of the sin proceed from the damage to the living and to a belief in the sacredness of life. The intent of the suicide to harm the living certainly elevates the severity of the sin.
Ann Althouse said...
No one is saying anything about what Mary did to Cheryl.
Is that why Mary killed herself? Cheryl's a victim?
Maybe we are all victims for being driven to such silliness.
I wouldn't go along with blaming Cheryl Hines for Mary Kennedy's death. But I'm sure the Kennedys will. Maybe they planted this story. Hines is at least as expendable as the rest of the women that have run through that meat grinder. She took her cues about the relationship from RFK Jr. He could have asked her to tone it down for the sake of his family. But I'm sure there was a beaver dam somewhere that needed to be saved so, no.
I have a lot of trouble having any sympathy for someone who would marry a Kennedy. That is like putting a blindfold on before crossing the street and then complaining that a truck hit you. Yeah, who could have ever predicted such a thing.
But it was her life and only she could determine whether it was worth continuing. There are lots of cases where people are in too much pain to go on and no one has the right to make them. This is especially true towards the end of one's life but can happen at any stage. Not everyone is religious or of a persuasion that frowns on such things.
You are not required to suffer endlessly just so as not to inconvenience those around you. Sure it may be possible or likely that her motives in this case weren't pure but we don't really know. And ultimately she is the one who pays the price... whether she chooses to live or otherwise... there is a price either way.
My heart ached for the kids and family of Mary Kennedy when I heard this news. Yet - as I peruse the comments - no one mentions the fact that Robert Kennedy was taking away her kids - he had three restraining orders and apparent custody of the kids since February.
Divorce and adultery aside - taking away one's children is a squeeze play that I wish had not happened in this case at this time.
Suicide is the most selfish thing any one person can do. No one should ever bear the guilt even when the imagined intentions are obvious. It is an awful place to be and I think a few of the commenters here realize this.
However - I think we should all be aware of how we treat the people we leave behind when we "move on" to other lives and other wives and families.
I personally believe RFK, Jr. will be haunted for the rest of his life for the way he tried to eliminate Mary Kennedy from his life.
"A man who divorces his wife to marry his mistress creates a vacancy at both positions." - proverb
Funny you should mention that - Kennedy actually married his (now deceased) ex-wife Mary about a month after he divorced his first wife Emily Ruth Black.
Kathy, Mary was an alcoholic and a drug addict. Addicts prefer their drugs to everything, including parenting. Mary Kennedy was an irresponsible person. Dealing with addiction was within her control, no one else's. Suicide was within her control, no one else's.
And yes her suicide may have been directed at Hines. We will know her specific motivation. But we do know that suicide is often an aggressive act. It strikes at those left behind. Mary Kennedy, when she killed herself, was delivering a blow to her children. She is getting off way to easy here and in the press.
Oh, here we go. Let the collective preening about how evil suicide is commence. A popular soap box issue these days.
Because condemning those who fell so. That really helps.
"That really helps."
Your sarcasm suggest you mean it harms, rather than helps. But harms what, exactly?
Not the suicide, surely, as they are already dead, beyond any harm.
I personally believe RFK, Jr. will be haunted for the rest of his life for the way he tried to eliminate Mary Kennedy from his life.
The Kennedys seem pretty immune to remorse so I doubt it. People like to project that onto them but they seem to slough it off.
A Scott Brown victory, the unravelling of Teddycare, and losing the war on coal would be better set backs for RFK, Jr.
Help it happen!
I agree with David's comment at 3:30 in its entirety (to be redundant, including his last paragraph).
Also, I could not possibly care less about Cheryl Hines or any so-called deep wound she may suffer, and I do not care about RFK Jr., most especially as to whether he feels guilty or not (he has quite the long track record for being a selfish ass**** and a screw-up) now or until the end of his days.
And tweeting about the minor son--by full name and age, no less--of your boyfriend (famous, no less, and not to mention not even divorced) for whatever reason, to suck up, or brag, or even impress the kid, whatever? Ptuie. Gross lack of character, self-awareness or ability to imagine the negative possibilities of doing that (and no, I'm not talking about suicide: no one should have to anticipate that).
Now for the kids, I feel terrible. Their situation is so sad. They have been failed by the immature, ethically and morally impoverished, and selfish significant adults in their lives.
I think RFK Jr. and Cheryl who???? deserve each other.
He of "brain fry" fame and she, from all indications, is AKC registered.
The wounds I referred to were in her kids.
Thorley Winston: Yeah, and it appears that it was one of those quickie overseas divorces. The first kid of the second marriage was born the same year. Sheesh.
Don't you just wonder how Hines' own young child and her estranged husband are processing all of this? No, it's not a curiosity I want nor expect to be satisfied (in fact, I think it should not be). But there's no way I'm gonna worry about a so-called deep wound for Ms. Hines. Seems to me she didn't give a rat's ass about any deep wounds she might have been spreading all over the damn place, either. So why should anyone care about hers?
Rcommal - I am really with you about the sadness I feel for these kids - or any kids - anywhere - who have been handled the cards of these kinds of creepy, narcissistic and selfish adults as parents.
Still - I ALWAYS have sympathy for the powerless when confronted with powerful forces that are out to destroy your very existence.
This is kind of an ideology - actually- that should guide high power divorce attorneys who so often crush the ones who do not have access to the trust funds or the Cayman Island Accounts or the other unfortunate trappings of the wealth they married into.
There are so many more positive ways that RFK could have handled his wife's depression and addictions (and by the way - why do we trust the media reports that she was a drug addict and a drunk? Good Grief - the media has been carrying water for the Kennedy's since the 1960's).
And I say this as one of eleven very Irish Catholic children who grew up with a portrait of JFK on our living room wall.
I feel sorry for Mary. Her ex-husband moved swiftly to replace her in his life. Sought to ban her from her own children. And to have people Mary thought of as friends abandon her for the new model. Is it any wonder her life spiraled out of control?
Suicide is a painful event. It is that last cry because the pain is too intense. It is the act that ends the pain in their thinking. They are not thinking of the ones left behind so its a selfish act. Only the truly evil commit suicide to hurt others.
As for the Kennedys, brimstone is too nice for them and their depravity.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/addiction-in-society/200805/reckless-sex-and-power-iii-the-top-seven-kennedy-sex-scandals
Some people have such tender hearts and are surrounded by such awful people that drugs can pretty quickly be their only read way to survive.
They'll gladly get rid of $1.00's worth of pain today, even if it means tomorrow they'll have $1.10's worth of pain.
It is very tough to get an addict over their penchant for deadening the pain without surrounding them with loving, non-shaming, non-attacking people.
So much class, these people.
And they're all for "feminism" too!
In the weird coincidences of the world department, the news that Glenn Close was friendly with RFK Jr.'s unfortunate wife reminds me that -- as I happen to know for no particular reason -- the house where her boiled bunny scene was shot for "Fatal Attraction" is just a stone's throw down the road from the house where Mary Kennedy died.
Ms. Hines didn't owe anything special to Mary, but she did behave rather heartlessly. I do not wish her ill, but if it pains her to contemplate the effect of her heartlessness, I don't pity her, either. Junior, on the other hand, presumably vowed to love and cherish Mary in sickness and in health. I hope Ms. Hines henceforth recoils from his touch and he never has another night of restful sleep.
My goal here is to discourage suicide. If you give it power as a way to injure one's enemies, you are giving weak, irresponsible individuals an incentive.
Please help me turn would-be suicides around.
I think I can be discouraging of people killing themselves AND at the very same discourage the bad behaviour and character of other adults, too.
"Mary Richardson Kennedy married Robert Kennedy ONE MONTH after he divorced his first wife. While suicide is a terrible thing, she wasn't clueless about Robert's predilections as she had been the other woman!"
What is the saying?
When a man marries his mistress he creates a job vacancy?
The comparison with Ravi is cogent, though.
If a little bit of public humiliation makes a person guilty of someone's suicide, then Hines is guilty (and the ex, of course.)
In any case, what does anyone think "better or worse, sickness or health" means?
I vote for honesty in wedding vows... something like "promise to love you until it takes an effort... bitch."
If you want to diminish the power of suicide to injure, don't you have to treat it like a troll and ignore it? If Mary's suicide was meant to injure Junior and/or Ms. Hines, doesn't your publication of their callous behavior toward her augment the injury? I agree with your point that the power of suicide to injure the living is often an incentive to suicide, but how does post seek to diminish that incentive or otherwise to discourage suicide?
Oh, she should've just gotten over it and moved on.
Right, everybody? That's what you say when a life is destroyed and nobody cares, right?
Just get over it and move on.
It's very helpful advice.
Thanks.
I'll never forget how sickeningly shallow many of you are,...
There's a bright side to all this. RFK Jr. is spared any further legal fees, and there will be no lingering child custody issues. Even better the marriage does not have to be annulled. Those Vatican procedures can cost a pretty penny. Now RFK Jr can have the blessings of a sacramental marriage within church walls....Mary's gesture may have been as angry and vengeful as it was despairing, but mostly it was ineffectual. RFK Jr comes out the winner.
Kennedy brides should forego the veil and wed wearing crash helmets.
Hines makes you feel so good all under
Have the Kennedy men ever really demonstrated any real respect for women and marriage?
A Spanish proverb: Quien mucho abarca poco aprieta, He who grabs too much squeezes little.
Do you feel comfortable blaming cancer victims for succumbing to the disease?
Stop for a moment and try to understand that, for some percentage of suicides, there is no other option, because, for them, it's the terminal end of a terrible disease.
I have known, through my family and through my own experiences, the dreadful, ceaseless pain of clinical depression. I consider myself lucky, and strong, and touched by the grace of God and modern medicine, to have survived, but I have known those who weren't so lucky, whose minds were warped and clouded by so much pain and distortion and disease that death seemed to them the grace of God, the blessing of luck.
I'm not trying to say that it didn't tear us, the living, into shreds. But to blame all of them, as if they were morally weak and spiteful because of their actions, is vanity.
Hey. About strength. About weakness.About all sorts of things. And all that jazz.
Palladian:
Yeah. What about all of that?
I agree: Excellent questions, you ask.
Regards,
Lori
When I was 19 a friend killed himself with a candy dish full of seconal. He had a farewell get together with the guys he grew up with, without telling anyone it was a farewell party. But we, or at least I, should have known. In my defense this happened about the same year my brother was murdered and all I had eyes for were some of that fucking seconal to kill my own pain. The next day I found out why he wouldn't part with any goodies.
Anyway to cut to the chase, about 18 years later I'm reading the NY Daily News and lo and behold, I see a picture of his father, whom I had known as a sweet sober gentle man, being led away by the cops in a bloodied white shirt. He had stuck a 10-inch kitchen knife through his 85-year-old landlady.
THAT is what suicide does to the living.
But to blame all of them, as if they were morally weak and spiteful because of their actions, is vanity.
The human instinct to live is so strong, I believe it is almost impossible to make a healthy brain carry out a suicide, especially over emotional pain (as opposed to physical pain).
As for Althouse's point about what Mary did to Cheryl, that assumes that Cheryl actually is sad about having that bit of trouble out of her life.
I've known too many people going through divorces who utter the words "it would be easier of so-and-so would just die".
He had stuck a 10-inch kitchen knife through his 85-year-old landlady.
That may be the case, but it also may be a clue about why your friend felt drawn to suicide.
I'm sorry for all of your losses.
Funny, this doesn't Bring Change 2 Mind.
Since the topic has shifted slightly to suicide generally. I agree with those who predict a significant uptick in suicides in the very near future. I think among the poor we will see an extremely dramatic upward swing. And, not sure there is much at this point we can do about that.
Certainly, this, from AA,
"Please help me turn would-be suicides around."
is not going to do it. Although it does illustrate some comedic Hubris. Jaw on floor and all of that.
My goal here is to discourage suicide. If you give it power as a way to injure one's enemies, you are giving weak, irresponsible individuals an incentive.
Please help me turn would-be suicides around.
While that is an admirable goal, I don’t believe that it (suicide) is that often done to directly hurt one’s enemies, so much as the more basic, underlining goal is to sabatoge and hurt themselves. See, this perpetuates the deep, dark (and oddly, comfortable) self-loathing they’ve become accustomed to . Shaming them with adjectives such as weak and irresponsible only works to drive many deeper into their cave.
As for any harm done to Cheryl, well, it may not hurt her to do some reflection on what her part was in all of this, but in the end, that‘s all she’s responsible for. We’re not responsible for another’s actions, only our own. For whatever reasons, in the end, Mary made that choice. It doesn’t seem rational to us, but I’m betting is seemed a pretty rational solution to her. Maybe there’s an odd comfort Cheryl can find in that.
The Crack Emcee said...
Oh, she should've just gotten over it and moved on.
Right, everybody? That's what you say when a life is destroyed and nobody cares, right?
Just get over it and move on.
It's very helpful advice.
Thanks.
I'll never forget how sickeningly shallow many of you are,...
These were my thoughts as well. Well said, Crack Emcee.
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