"Why is it that some on the left choose to divide, to incite with comments like that instead of just respecting women’s choices and what they want to do with the gifts that God has given them?"By the way, do we just respect men’s choices and what they want to do with the gifts that God has given them?
AND: Judith Warner says Democrats owe Hilary Rosen an apology! The Democrats, she says, are "like the Romney campaign itself" "cynic[al]" and "out of touch":
We all know, on the one hand, that there’s a certain portion of the population that feels not just left behind but generally dissed by what they identify as the evolution of attitudes and mores in our era: they’re the Sarah Palin constituency. But these conservative women were never going to vote for Obama anyway.What we learned from the Rosenflap is that lots of women (and men) want to see respect for women who choose the traditional role. Since when is it politically savvy to insult the groups that don't vote your way?
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162 comments:
Blissfully ignorant of Hilary Rosen -- who she is, what she said, what she is talking about.
Life is good.
Do we 'just respect' the choices of men?
Not really. We don't talk about them much at all. In the Big Narrative that drives gender politics, men don't have difficult choices, so what is there to respect?
"Which member of my harem will feed me my grapes today?" doesn’t generate respect.
Why is it that some on the left choose to divide, to incite with comments like that
But Sarah you are unabashedly divisive, inciting with Us vs. Them comments all the time. Be for real and maybe you'd get more respect.
phx grabs his Tu Quoque, as expected.
Palin's sister: "Oh, wait, didn’t these people slam you, who are the same ones slamming Ann Romney, because she stayed at home with five kids? Didn’t they slam you for not staying at home with your five kids?"
How many women feel that they are generally as respected as men? In my experience few to none. So I think Gov. Palin's comment will resonate.
I think men are expected to work and provide for themselves and if they are married for their families too.
I have a theory that this sort of kerfluffle, or, rather, the reaction to it (of everyone proclaiming how hard all moms have it) is actually harmful to women in terms of equality. It further cements the presumption that women and only women are caretakers of children. No one ever says that dads work hard or crows about the difficulties of working fathers.
No one responding to this has said that parents work hard. It's all moms.
Men have choices?
By the way, do we just respect men’s choices and what they want to do with the gifts that God has given them?
100 years ago, a plurality of men willingly gave their lives for their women and children. I wonder how that situation would go down these days.
I don't think most married men would view being a stay at home husband a choice and I don't think most men want that choice.
"No one responding to this has said that parents work hard. It's all moms."
That doesn't win any votes, and this IS a political discussion at heart, unfortunately.
We have to presume that women are the only caretakers of children. If we start talking about men, we'd have to address the millions of children growing up without fathers, and the disaster that has been for society. And no one wants to do that.
ric pic--we have choices--we can either pay child support or move to costa rica
Yup. Women and children first? The kids, of course. The women, not so much.
In fact, you have 10% more body fat to protect you from hypothermia, so hand your coat over to that skinny guy.
Do we respect the choices men make, in this case the stay-at-home dad?
I think we do, more and more.
At least, people who value that role also respect men when they fill it.
Men have choices?
Hey, I'd just be happy to have reproductive rights.
I must know more men who do significant "day care" than most people know.
"Since when is it politically savvy to insult the groups that don't vote your way?"
That's and easy one. When it plays to your base.
Duh..
ric pic--we have choices--we can either pay child support or move to costa rica
Really? They won't track you down?
[Asking for a friend yo.]
Who's Judith Warner?
Though I don't think that men who "work" get nearly as much respect for it as women who "work."
After all, if you appreciate that your guy has gotten up every day for 25 years and gone to work even when he was frustrated and stressed and would far have rather not, and maybe he deserves the expensive hobby or some major fun, or even just to relax instead of do laundry when he gets home... well, then you're one of those old-fashioned submissive door-mat women.
Because everyone *knows* that careers are enriching, fulfilling, pass-times; their own reward, so to speak. Spending any appreciable time *respecting* them, is sort of redundant, right?
ricpic,
Men have choices?
"the sexual revolution gave women a lot of choices. Men, however, had the same two: go to work, or go to jail" Tim Allen
"Since when is it politically savvy to insult the groups that don't vote your way?"
Liberals are less able to put themselves in conservative shoes then vice versa and beside they're the good guys so they must be right.
I think that most conservatives became conservatives because they have an open mind and continue to learn and grow. I think liberals are very closed minded people.
"Since when is it politically savvy to insult the groups that don't vote your way?"
I think that the "politically savvy" part of pounding on Rosen for her gaff, is based on the notion that there probably are quite a nice chunk of Obama-voting women who qualify as "soccer moms."
Wasn't that what we were told about the "war on women?" That head-down-in-motherhood types were suddenly going "Huh? Whaa?" and noticing the politics?
Maybe, sure, Christian homeschoolers weren't ever going to vote for Obama, but I'm betting a rather large LARGE portion of Private School PTA Bake Sale ladies are among those "women who reliably vote Democrat unless given a good reason not to."
These are default-feminists rather than professional-feminists, and they've been told plenty of times that they are special and everything they do is blessed. They've been told that chasing a 2 year old is a good work-out (it's not... exhaustion just means you're tired), and that mommy-blogging is a career oriented pass-time.
These are the ladies undertaking the serious discussions of Ashley Judd's puffy-face.
And they demand respect.
Our new favorite Bubba, Bubba Watson the golfer, has it just right.
His wife keeps him together and his growing career supported in every way. Bubba says he does not keep anything secret from her and they make all decisions together because they are one body as Christ and His Church are one body.
Mrs Watson works 24/7 in a true marriage, also called heaven on earth.
"Rosenflap"
I think it would be a good idea to distinquish between 'flaps' and 'gates.' The Rosen thing is definitely a flap.
"I don't think most married men would view being a stay at home husband a choice and I don't think most men want that choice."
I read a short article once that said most stay-at-home dads resist the category, and consider themselves working from home, starting a business, writing a book, etc.
And as we have seen with the haranguing of Meade, it is not considered appropriate for two adults to have arrangements that work for them.
"Dissed"?
"Mrs Watson works 24/7 in a true marriage, also called heaven on earth."
Very likable couple and she told him on their first date that she couldn't have children, they just adopted a baby after a long process.
"Hey, I'd just be happy to have reproductive rights."
You do. When in doubt, don't whip it out.
What Miss Sarah was really saying, "Welcome to payback!".
"BITCH!!!".
phx said...
Why is it that some on the left choose to divide, to incite with comments like that
But Sarah you are unabashedly divisive, inciting with Us vs. Them comments all the time. Be for real and maybe you'd get more respect.
She is real. That's what the Demos and the Lefties still don't get.
The Ann Romneys and Sarah Palins are the ones with their feet on real ground. They've lived the family life and balanced budgets and sat up with sick kids.
The Lefties think that there's nothing that can't be solved by a Full Court Alinsky. They're the ones dividing people with "Us vs. Them comments all the time" - Buffett Rule, fairness, War on Women, "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon".
I think people are seeing through that finally.
WV "dlema" What you're on when you feel horny.
"And as we have seen with the haranguing of Meade, it is not considered appropriate for two adults to have arrangements that work for them."
I don't know what their working relationship is but whatever it is, Meade came to that relationship as an older man secure I'm assuming in what he had already accomplished in life.
You do. When in doubt, don't whip it out.
No, I can still be forced to pay child support for a child I did not father.
If I *do* get a girl pregnant, and she wants to keep it, I have to support it the rest of my life.
If she wants to kill it, I have no choice. Even though its my DNA too.
You gals, you have a whole course of choices offered. You know that intercourse carries a risk of pregnancy, but you choose to take that risk anywyay. You know that birth control is not 100% effective, but you choose to take that risk anyway.
And then you complain that men are taking away your right to choose.
"And as we have seen with the haranguing of Meade, it is not considered appropriate for two adults to have arrangements that work for them."
As I try to say as often as I can — and outsiders pretend to know what Meade and I do but they don't know the specifics — everyone in whatever economic unit they are in, should think through the emotions and the math on their own. It's not about your total income or how much you get and spend. It's about your well being overall. You should make an individual assessment and be smart.
There's money and there's also time. And there's freedom. And love. There's work that you do for charity and for artistic fulfillment and for you friends and loved ones.
It's not all about jobs.
lots of women (and men) want to see respect for women who choose the traditional role
Only those who are constantly ready to be offended.
Normal people don't give it a thought.
It's the economy and Obama's destructive policies making it worse in every way, not some female mood swing, that matters.
Rosens don't have flaps, they have petals.
Don't all women want to be the wife of a millionaire? Fortified with all kinds of help, one can concentrate on family and entertainment and not have to worry about driving to kids to school before going off to work.
RV-true enough--but I dont begrudge the Romney's their wealth. And yes, having money does make one's life easier--so I am not sure, exactly, what your point is.
There is no significant difference in the number of liberal families that choose to have the wife stay at home to care for the children as in conservative couples.
Tradional marriage is embraced by both left and right in similar numbers. Divorce is also obtained by both left and right in similar numbers.
Respect for a woman's choice is what is up in the air, we know what the right feels about choice in reproductive matters, what we misunderstand is that respect for a women's choice to be a SAHM isn't any less by the left than the right.
Most women choose what is best for their families and children regardless of their politics.
I say it is nobody's business what the arrangement is between Althouse and Meade. It is their business alone. What matters is are they happy. We can't answer that either.
AllieTheFakeNurse: Respect for a woman's choice is what is up in the air, we know what the right feels about choice in reproductive matters
Nope. Your side lost all respect for women's "choice" when you demanded the rest of us pay for your birth control.
Pay for your own sex life.
First: what Nana said re meadhouse--strictly their business.
As for the issue of reproductive rights: in a loving and commited relationship this would seem to me to be a mutual decision between husband and wife.
roesch/voltaire: Don't all women want to be the wife of a millionaire? Fortified with all kinds of help, one can concentrate on family and entertainment and not have to worry about driving to kids to school before going off to work.
Roesch telegraphs what kind of woman he would be...
You don't have a very high opinion of women, do you Roesch?
Or is it Mothers that you hate?
The timing of Rosen's gaffe is likely to prove the most important aspect.
With Santorum's withdrawal, Romney at that exact moment needed something to pull conservative ranks together around him.
He got it via his wife, who has even broader appeal outside of conservatives.
“She’s never really dealt with the kinds of economic issues that a majority of the women in this country are facing, in terms of how do we feed our kids, how do we send them to school, and why do we worry about their future,” Rosen said.
Who's "we," Hilary? Your children are adopted which means you had to demonstrate the ability to care not just adequately, but well for them. You attended GWU and have been a well-connected lobbyist and consultant ever since. I'm not sure you're any more in touch with the women who worry about how to feed and school their children than Ann Romney. You remind me of Michelle Obama when she was commiserating with a group of average women about the high cost of private school and ballet lessons.
Obnoxious woman. Got what she deserved. Hope she enjoys life under the bus. Iowahawk tweeted that Hilary and Anita should rename their firm Dunn and Dumber. LOL
roesch/voltaire said...
Don't all women want to be the wife of a millionaire? Fortified with all kinds of help, one can concentrate on family and entertainment and not have to worry about driving to kids to school before going off to work.
Yeah, because being rich means they don't have to deal with stuff like MS and cancer.
And poor stay at home moms (who seem to be the majority, BTW, because they feel they haven't got the educational wherewithal to get a job) don't "have to worry about driving to kids to school before going off to work", either.
RV: "Don't all women want to be the wife of a millionaire? Fortified with all kinds of help, one can concentrate on family and entertainment and not have to worry about driving to kids to school before going off to work."
This is the leftist dream, to have someone else take control so they can relax and fuck around.
And why women? Isn't it the dream of every progressive man to be married to an heiress?
Once again Fen tries to derail the thread. OK Fen two can play the game of lies.
Fen the wife abuser, who had to spend a weekend in jail is now in anger management classes. Strange what what one can find online.
If you continue to refer me as Fake Nurse, I will refer to you as the wife abuser you are.
Now can we get back on topic Wife Abuser Fen?
Fen the Wife Abuser, did you miss in the last thread where I said women could buy their own birth control? Also, I am so far past menopause I don't need birth control anymore, Fenny.
The birth control kerfluffle is not as important to liberal women as you want to make it sound. There are much bigger fish to fry.
@Kukla, Fen, and Allie: Your ad homonyms are starting to sound alike. Please consider settling your differences somewhere else.
Chickenlittle, I have a right to defend myself. Bud out.
AllieTheFakeNurse: Once again Fen tries to derail the thread.
Derail? You said:
"Respect for a woman's choice is what is up in the air, we know what the right feels about choice in reproductive matters"
To which I responded:
Nope. Your side lost all respect for women's "choice" when you demanded the rest of us pay for your birth control.
See that? You're talking about how you think the Right won't "respect" your right to murder babies, I respond that you don't deserve respect after demanding the rest of us fund your sexual recreation.
So it can hardly be a derailment.
BTW, the thread is about Mama Grizzlies waking up politically. Its not about your abortion rights. You are the one off topic, not me.
Geez AllieTheFakeNurse, I feel like I'm picking on a cripple. Perhaps you've been drinking all day? We can pretend for you, if you want.
Chatter!
AllieTheFakeNurse: Chickenlittle, I have a right to defend myself. Bud out.
You missed an opportunity there to derail the thread back into your abortion fixation.
And you know what, there's kinda something creepy about that.
FenTheWife Abuser, why do you hate women? It is you that sounds like a mean abusive drunk, name calling, lies does it ever stop? Do you not have a way of debating in which you state facts and stay away from personal attacks?
Do you think that you make your point more clearly and fairly by your behavior?
Not really OT, but FWIW:
Rasmussen now has the Romster over Zero 48 - 44 (couldn't see the under the hood stuff).
Interesting how this will play into those numbers.
PS Phrase is, "Butt out".
You're demanding to know why there's no respect for women's choice, and I'm telling you why there isn't any.
And you are still off-topic.
And really just ranting now.
No Palladian, it's CLUTTER.
Fen you stop calling me a Fake Nurse, I stop calling you on your behavior, can you do that are you capable?
Then we can all get back to the topic, is it a deal?
Funny how the Clutter arrived when you did.
Fen, I left the last thread because of your personal attacks , I won't leave this one.
Respect seems to be something some folks are short on.
AllieOop...I admire your cogent and well made points.
As for Fen, don't take him too seriously. He comments like Inspector Clouseau's house boy in Pink Panther attacking from strange angles.
Thanks Trad Guy, I was beginning to think there wasn't a conservative here at this blog that had a ounce of courage.
I like Palin's Hooah pin.
Ms. Oop, appealing to authority like you do invites skepticism and pushback. The stalking thing you did is just creepy.
X, I never looked up a thing on Fen, it was a LIE, don't you get it? He continually lies about me, it's called turnabout.
MadisonMan,
Blissfully ignorant of Hilary Rosen -- who she is, what she said, what she is talking about.
Do enlighten us, MM. Who is Hilary Rosen? In any sense that would be relevant here? I mean, I don't suppose you mean "wealthy lobbyist for the recording industry who has the odd several grand to give yearly to political candidates, and drops in on the White House every couple months." So what do you mean?
chickenlittle said...
I like Palin's Hooah pin.
The pin's for her son who, I believe, is still in.
"Hooah" went into general Army usage about 20 years ago, but originated with the Rangers; a volunteer was often asked if he was, "Hooah", meaning did he have what it took to lead the Ranger life.
Ron Nelson said...
How many women feel that they are generally as respected as men? In my experience few to none. So I think Gov. Palin's comment will resonate.
You gotta hang with a different crowd. Most of the women I know are respected and feel respected. Most of the men I know respect women, unless the woman does something to abuse that respect.
What we learned from the Rosenflap is that lots of women (and men) want to see respect for women who choose the traditional role.
What I'm hearing is a lot of horseshit in the other direction. "Being a mother is the hardest job there is!" And I'm like, what about brain surgery? I think brain surgery is way harder than being a mom. Rocket scientist, that's a tough job.
And even if being a mom is the hardest job in the world, you know that's a totally unlicensed occupation. It's not like you have to pass a test first. You can be a crack whore and be a mom. Seriously, don't some moms suck? What about those bad moms? I know, I know, Obama voters.
Mom on welfare: "I got the hardest job there is!"
Republicans: "Get a job!"
For some people, being a mom is totally a vacation. Maybe that's why liberals disrespect motherhood so much. You can't quantify it. You can't attach a title to it. "I've achieved the rank of super-mom." There are no mom rankings. All the super-moms get tossed into the big pile with the crack whore moms and the welfare moms and the baby-shaking moms.
Motherhood is like the wild west. It's the last frontier of non-regulation by the government. In fact, you can rip your baby to pieces, government doesn't care. Government says it's right! Me, I say that's a shitty mom right there.
doubting someone's credentials is not the same as defamation.
--Don't all women want to be the wife of a millionaire?--
$1,000,000 net worth doesn't really fortify anything. Not when you're fortunate to get a 2-3% return on your cash/investments.
Prounced as hooah is:
HUA, meaning "heard, understood, acknowledged"
The question now is whether Meadhouse will kill the clutter family of comments in cold blood.
Judith Warner: That the Democrats felt such a need to throw Rosen under a bus suggests to me that they, like the Romney campaign itself, are guilty both of knee-jerk cynicism in regards to female voters and of being out of touch.
Judith Warner: ...these conservative women were never going to vote for Obama anyway...
Cynicism is a river in Egypt.
--Respect for a woman's choice is what is up in the air---
I do not have to respect someone who chooses to pith the skull of a baby coming down the birth canal.
And you a nurse. shakes my head.
St. Croix, absolutely right. The idea that being a Mom is the hardest job in the world and pushing this meme is pandering to stay at home moms and not accurate.
As you say there many other professions that women do the deserve the same respect.
I do however disagree with you that liberals disrespect motherhood. I had four pregnancies which weren't always convenient, I had four healthy children. Because I am pro choice doesn't mean that I don't respect motherhood.
RV:
Romney was not a millionaire when she married him. She shares in his prosperity because she had a major role in achieving it. This is a standard feminist belief--that the economic success of the marriage should be equally shared because each spouse has an equal role in its creation. This belief is enshrined in the law of most states.
My own experience shows me that this belief is correct. I've seen it many times, and experienced it myself. There is no doubt that the stability and love of a good marriage to a supportive woman has a huge impact on the man's financial success. It goes the same for financially successful married females.
You really have no idea how sexist and disrespectful your statements are, do you?
I'm not reading much push back here on what Palin actually said so I'm going to assume that there is none.
PHX pointed out that Palin is divisive too--I don't think it's possible to be uniting at this time. We are riven.
Palin is divisive because she must be destroyed.
I was on another blog around election time and someone had done some quick resarch.
In the span of 5 weeks approximately 15,0000 articles on Palin
in the Span of Obamster approx 15,000 articles in 1-1/2 years.
The media needed to destroy her.
Allieoop said: Because I am pro choice doesn't mean that I don't respect motherhood.
Yes Allie, but we also know that you are personally against abortion (from other threads). So your position is that it's OK for other women but not yourself. In this sense, you have Althouse's position that abortion is immormal but should remain legal, perhaps because morality cannot be legislated. You respect another woman's right to choose what for yourself is immoral.
Have I overstepped here?
No Chickie, you haven't overstepped in this instance, you are correct.
@Allie: Getting back to Palin, I recall derision from the left for her decision to keep Trig. This was certainly her choice, and probably a moral one for her. Is there any defense of those who derided Palin for keeping Trig?
Chickie, there will be no defense of those who derided her over over her choice, as there will be no derision from me on those who choose not to carry such a fetus to term. I wish that these children would all be carried to term and raised in a loving home, but that isn't my choice, it's not my body.
It's the right of the woman to choose and society should be respectful of this.
Blissfully ignorant of Hilary Rosen -- who she is, what she said, what she is talking about.
Do enlighten us, MM. Who is Hilary Rosen?
Are you ignorant of the meaning of the word ignorant? Or perhaps the elided I am in my comment confused you?
If I had to guess, I'd say whatever HR said is the latest whatever to be outraged!!!! about.
Respect for a woman's choice is what is up in the air
What a deeply silly concept. We "respect" people actions, not their having a choice.
I do not "respect a woman's choice", at least until I know what choice she made.
This is holding women to the same standards set for men, who are not "respected for their choice" in the slightest degree.
It's the right of the woman to choose
Why is it "the right of the woman to choose?
Approximately 60% of the country has the same position as Allie, I personally wouldn't do it, not going to tell others what to do, but they also don't want to pay for it.
I think that's been a pretty consistent stat over the past 35 years.
It's this State-sanctioned Stupak crap that apart of the dislike of Obamacare, IMHO.
Q, what is to be respected are her rights under a law, not her actions. It's your right to disrespect her irresponsibility, her action of getting the abortion, but not her RIGHT under a LAW.
Suppose the case of a man who chooses to beat up his wife.
That's his "choice", obviously.
Are we required to "respect his choice"?
If we say no, aren't we admitting that the word "choice" does not actually possess the near-magical power which feminists assign to it?
Are we not then required to admit that the phrase "a woman's choice" is devoid of any useful meaning?
Q, it's not legal to beat up your wife. It's reprehensible, as is abortion, but what is it about rights under a law you don't understand?
AllieTheFakeNurse: It's the right of the woman to choose and society should be respectful of this.
Says who? Just because you have the right doesn't mean it deserves respect. To the pro-Life crowd, you are murdering a human. Your demand that they not only tolerate your right to do this but also respect it... asking a bit much there.
Especially on the heels of demanding the rest of us pay for your contraception.
Short version: you and yours are so addicted to sex that you are willing to kill for it. And that doesn't get my respect.
[BTW, you don't demand respect, not unless you are a comedian. It doesn't work that way]
Oh sorry, I'm just going to watch this time.
*passes popcorn*
what is to be respected are her rights under a law
I respect everyone's rights under the law, when the law is made by a duly elected legislative body.
I respect no ones "rights" when they are created out of thin air by a handful of unelected bureaucrats. That is not "law" at all.
If you want to make abortion legal, persuade your fellow citizens that it should be. But all I ever see you doing is whinging that people are voting (which is really using their "choice") in ways you do not approve of, in ways you want stopped.
You are tin-pot dictator.
it's not legal to beat up your wife. It's reprehensible, as is abortion, but what is it about rights under a law you don't understand?
Sweety, what is it about this word "law" which you don't understand?
what is to be respected are her rights under a law, not her actions. It's your right to disrespect her irresponsibility, her action of getting the abortion, but not her RIGHT under a LAW
Look, you brainless little twit, if you want the LAW about abortion to be X, then get off your fat ass and lobby your legislative body to make it be X.
You think that abortion should be a "right". I do not.
FenTheWife Wife Beater, do you have problems with reading comprehension, did I ever say you should respect the ACT of getting an abortion?
Exercising her right under a law Is what deserves respect. We live in a country in which we honor liberty, do we not? It's her choice to exercise her rights under a law. How hard is this?
You can hate the law and the woman all you want, go for it.
edutcher quoted me, contradicted me, but did not, repeat did NOT call me a name - at least not a bad one.
"not some female mood swing"
Now you're just messing with me.
Fen, I agree that it's unfair to pay support for a child not yours that is born while married to the mother. Other than that, recreational sex in this day and age will get you what the law dictates. So luckily you're happily married, so don't have to worry about the rest.
Q, you really don't have an argument. Reverting to name calling again, how predictable.
My ass isn't fat BTW.
It used to be the case that the LAW gave people the CHOICE to exercise their RIGHT under the LAW to own or not own slaves.
This little fact leaves me completely unpersuaded that I have an obligation to "respect" the "RIGHTS", the "LAW", or the "CHOICE". In fact I despise all three.
If I despise all three in the case of slavery - which at least had some basis in actual law - then imagine how I feel about the "right" to abortion, which is not law at all but decree.
I don't think most married men would view being a stay at home husband a choice and I don't think most men want that choice.
My Daughter is the working parent (with a very good and high paying job)and her husband is the stay at home parent for now with a 1 yr old.
It wasn't their first choice, but because of the job opportunities, they made this decision and it is working out for now. The cost of child care where they live is enormous and the first year of their child's life has been able to be spent happily with loving parents and not paid strangers.
It is working out emotionally and economically. The situation will change,(and probably soon, since there are job offers on the table) and both will be working.
No one thinks anything the less of the husband for being the stay at home parent. And frankly it really isn't anyone's business.
Althouse writes:
"Since when is it politically savvy to insult the groups that don't vote your way?"
In a post seconding Sarah Palin, for God's sake! Palin, whose campaign speeches were shot through with reference to "real Americans" as the ones who supported her. Oh yeah, and "real Virginians."
But Palin doesn't stand out in this way actually. Romney, Gingrich, Santorum, Cain, Perry, Bachmann: we heard thse and many many more yammering against all sorts of groups including homosexuals, pro-choicers, teachers, union members, and environmentalists.
Althouse wants to know since when it was savvy to insult those who vote against you. And here I see commenters flocking to the bait as though they disapprove of insulting voters. It is entertaining.
FentheWifeAbuser, how do you know if I'm addicted to sex?
you really don't have an argument.
You would not recognize an argument if one was surgically implanted in your skull, which is the only fashion in which one would ever get there.
Your axiom (not argument) is "we must respect women's choices". Full stop. That's all you've got.
Exactly right DBQ, my daughter too will be the main breadwinner, when she gets pregnant they will have to make the same decision.
Q, you really are thick, whatever, you are boring me to tears.
Exercising her right under a law Is what deserves respect.
Her rights under the law extends to voting for people in her state who pass restrictions on abortion. That is a right as well.
I notice that you very pointedly DO NOT respect her right to exercise that right and that choice. In fact you reject that right and that choice in no uncertain terms.
No one thinks anything the less of the husband for being the stay at home parent. And frankly it really isn't anyone's business.
Exactly right. I know couples where the Dad stayed home, and others where the wife stayed home, and others where they both worked and had a nanny, or did daycare, or had a grandparent. It worked. If they asked my opinion, I would give it (They didn't, so I kept my mouth shut).
MYOB. It's a great mantra.
Why is it "the right of the woman to choose?
Feminism is not about equality. It's about getting more and more power for women.
When the Supreme Court speaks about human reproduction, women have all the power. Men have no power. And the baby doesn't exist.
That's because the Supreme Court is utterly feminist. And feminists feel that women should have reproductive choices. Choices men do not have! Choices babies do not have!
Nothing "equal" about it.
Feminists fight tooth and nail for choice. But in doing so, they deny fatherhood, and they deny the baby.
"It's my body, it's my choice." There is no father in that rhetoric. There is no baby in that rhetoric. Feminism makes the father irrelevant. And so fathers disappear. And look at what this feminist rhetoric, this feminist law, has done to our society.
Half of all moms under 30 are single moms.
50 million abortions since 1973.
Which do you prefer, the abortion, or the single mom?
The feminist choice sucks!
You want to bring back fathers, you have to put the brakes on the sexual revolution. Why? Because fatherhood is biologically insecure. We don't get pregnant. We don't know we're the father. If all of us are sleeping around, we all know who the mother is. (The pregnant one!) And nobody knows who the father is.
A sexually promiscuous society destroys fatherhood. You want to bring back fathers? Outlaw abortion. Overnight, women will put the brakes on the sexual revolution. Men will have to love, and commit. Babies will have fathers and moms will be happier.
The pursuit of female power over all reproduction is destroying fatherhood. And women are very unhappy.
Our young girls should be taught that sex leads to pregnancy (often!). We try to control it but we fail (often!) And you want to avoid the horrible choice of being a single mom or aborting your child.
Feminism has shafted fathers, killed babies, and ruined the lives of many young girls. Wake up!
@harrowgate: I'm confused by your last post. Are you implying that many homosexuals, pro-choicers, and environmentalists* didn't yammer here against Romney, Gingrich, Santorum, Cain, Perry, & Bachmann?
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I took teachers and union members off your list because I don't recall them viciously attacking Palin.
Q, you really are thick, whatever, you are boring me to tears
Reverting to name-calling again?
Just cut and paste the one remark you have to make, which is: "You must respect womens choices under the law, and on no account is anyone permitted to change the law".
No one thinks anything the less of the husband for being the stay at home parent.
I felt very fortunate for the years I was able to be a stay-home parent. I couldn't have cared less for what anyone thought of this situation, although I could understand that they might be jealous.
Allie. I think it is a safe bet that pro choice women will have the choice to murder their children into the forseeable future. I am pro life, personally, but have warmed up to progressives murdering their kids. 50 or so million so far that my children wont have to share the planet with or listen to their yapping or support for that matter. Too bad for the murdered but it is an ill wind that doesnt blow some good, eh?
Wrong Q, if you slowed down and wiped the spittle off your mouth, you could've simply asked me instead of accusing me of not agreeing with you. YES that is her right, your right, my right. We still have the right to vote!
If roughly 20 million girls were aborted in America since 1973, how many choices weren't made by those 20 million (aborted) women, assuming natural loss rates?
Why doesn't the 20 million choices multiplied by the number of choices in a life subtracted by the number of girls who might have died before adulthood matter in comparison to the one choice we talk about when talking about "choice?"
I think it is because most people are stupid, unable to see that which they don't want to see even if it is in front of their face, and without hope of understanding it if it is not clearly visible at arms' length, repeatedly.
I know I am that way about lots of things, obviously.
St. Croix wrote: That's because the Supreme Court is utterly feminist.
No, I think that the SCOTUS has been (to use the term Althouse does) countermajoritarian. The meaning of countermajoritarian is fungible, depending on who the majority is. I don't think conservatives are the majority any longer like they were up through the 1970's and the coming of age of the Boomers. It would be wise and perhaps apt for the SCOTUS to stop looking out for just the Boomers.
Why must these threads always end up in an argument over abortion, to the exclusion of all else. Let us be mindful not to conflate distinct arguments here:
1. The morality of abortion
2. The constitutional and/ or legislatively determined right to (or lawfulness of) abortion
3. To what extent do current state legislature's proposals to place "limits" on abortion constitute any kind abrogation of rights or any kind of outlawing of abortion, on a state or federal level.
4. Whether or not the Romney campaign, platform, or 2012 choice between Romney and Obama has any bearing on 1, 2, or 3 (or vice-versa).
It's fine to have a spirited argument on 1, 2, and 3 (e.g. Q or Fen vs. Allie). But remember that each of those arguments are not only distinct from each other, but distinct from 4. To conflate them (as Dem talking points would like to conflate them) is to concede too much to the "war on women" meme and the effort to distract/ deflect/ digress from what the real stakes of the 2012 election-- and Romney's candidacy-- are about. Hint: it's not about women's "reproductive rights," as much as the Dems would like to make it so.
Why is almost every thread being diverted into an endless loop of discussion about abortion.
The topic is about the choice to stay at home with or without children on the part of the woman.....or even the man....and how society views it. Also how the differences between accepting those choices arise between conservatives and liberals.
Can't we try to stay on topic?
Congress is the real dysfunctional branch of Government. The Executive seems to have usurped too much of its power. A majority might be happier with less powerful Bush, a less powerful Obama, and a less powerful whoever is elected next. But Congress needs to step up to the job. And people need to put them up to it and hold them accountable. As a wise commenter here once lamented, the nationalization of congressional races is a bad thing.
Yes exactly, why do they keep bringing it up? I did not bring it up on this thread.
"Choice" in the sense you exterminate a possible infinite number of choices is a perverse way to celebrate choice.
If making a single choice, complex as that choice may be, results in a net loss of a nearly infinite amount of choices being made, through evolution but constantly changing with every choice made in real time also, that is celebrating the extinquishment of sundry, tolerant choices.
This is not something someone in favor of choice should do, is it?
AllieOop said...
Yes exactly, why do they keep bringing it up? I did not bring it up on this thread.
Ah, but you did on the previous thread. This thread is a continuation in part of that one and I asked you about Stephanopoulis.
Oh wonderful. Now she's going to talk about talking about abortion...
Do we still have that You ust be this ___ tall to ride sign?
I got it right, the m has fallen off again.
Heh DBQ, great minds think alike.
Yes Chickie, I did bring it up on the other thread, is this thread a contuation? It is a similar thread, but I don't know if it's a continuation, but now are we going to debate what Althouse meant when she posted this thread?
Stay on topic! Sheesh!
Hey, I agree with Lyssa.
It is complete BS that men can't care for children. Of course they can. I did it.
It seems to me that if feminists really want equality they should support men raising children.
But they don't. Why?
John Lynch, sure I support men raisng children, go for it!
I do remember a distant date, decades ago, with a woman from work, where I mentioned that she spent too much effort at work trying to seem important, and nobody cared about that.
She got really mad.
I don't know why people don't pretend to have a sense of humor instead of pretending to be important. That's what I do.
I think the decision on who stays at home and who goes to work belongs to the family, not to the state, politicians or the media. My husband and I exercised several choices at different stages of our 30+ years long married life. I had an opportunity to be a head earner for quite a few years, while my husband took a pretty big share of the child care, etc.
That in most families it's women who stays at home is only a reflection on the fact that women have much lower earning power still.
How is it easier to bear and birth children if you're rich? Granted, if you're really poor it's harder, but once you're lower-middle class or richer and know how to seek prenatal care, the wealth difference disappears.
Romney may have had household help, but carrying a baby and giving birth five times seems like a bit of work to me.
rhhardin said...
I do remember a distant date, decades ago, with a woman from work, where I mentioned that she spent too much effort at work trying to seem important, and nobody cared about that.
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Well, unfortunately, women pick some bad habbits from their male colleagues at the workplace. :D
"Rosens don't have flaps, they have petals."
Thorns, too, apparently.
Hint: it's not about women's "reproductive rights," as much as the Dems would like to make it so.
Are you kidding? Ginsburg is 79. She's the fifth vote for Roe v. Wade.
I suspect the confirmation hearing for Ginsburg's replacement will be insane. It'll be Bork, it'll be Clarence Thomas. It'll be vicious.
Tip for President Romney: nominate a pro-life woman. (He probably knows that already).
The funny thing about Rosen argument, i.e. the part that Democrates commenters on the net are trying to reframe as an essence of her words, i.e. that being rich Ann Romney does not have a clue about the concerns of the most women in the country, is that it backfires rather badly. My first thought on hearing this gem was "Pelosi". Obviously, the left does not have the same concerns about Pelosi (who holds more decision making power than Ann Romney can even dream of) and her disconnect with majority of the country.
This is no different from the hypocricy Sara Palin points out about former "concerns" about her going to work with 4 kids at home, as opposite to now poopooing Mrs Romney for staying at home with her 5 kids.
"That in most families it's women who stays at home is only a reflection on the fact that women have much lower earning power still."
Perhaps a bit, but I think that the biggest difference is the same as it always was, from cave-person days onward.
Women carry the infant support system with them... womb and boobs.
Bottles are a nice thing, but there's nothing yet to replace the womb support system (and hormones and everything) and a lot of people like to nurse at least for a little while and there gets to be momentum, you know?
The only real reason women make less at all, is that they miss work (and brain acuity) during and immediately after gestation.
Jacqueline Kennedy was a wealthy stay-at-home mom who had domestic help and a wealthy husband. Her husband didn't earn his wealth, it was given to him by his parents.
The best parts in this thread are Allie's deleted posts ;) And leave her ass out of this. I'm sure it's fine...though she may be a 300 lb trucker posting under an alias.
I'm still bothered by Judith Warner writing "dissed"...
"Dissed"? Is she trying to sound "down with the street"? I haven't heard anyone on the street say "dissed" since about 1994.
Ok now that Sarah has commented, its a dead issue.
Women stay home because it's easier.
Men catch holy hell if they stay home.
If a man does it, he's either emasculated or a deadbeat or both.
The latest leftist meme is that whole thing is irrelevant. But if that's so why did Rosen open her big mouth? Of course the leftists in the media are doubling down on their hatred for stay-at-home moms.
"Since when is it politically savvy to insult the groups that don't vote your way?"
When their vote is inconsequential, overwhelmed by fraud, corruption, propaganda and/or bullets.
It's very simple to win elections. Democracy is no guarantee of wisdom or survival, much less prosperity.
Synova @10:46 PM,
I think that nowdays it's the other way around, i.e. women giving birth and nuturing is a minor hold back, if they want a carrer, since the employers are much more aware of the working mothers needs, with many offering day care facilities, maternity[paternity?] leave for fathers, nursing stations, etc.
Women earn less then men, it's a fact:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0193820.html
And here is a table for Europe: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908883.html . With all the EU regulations, women having less children on average there, and a better child care facilities their earnings lag behind even more than in the US.
BTW, look at the UK number. We lived there a few years in early 1990s and I joked then that it can't be that women emancipation started in Britain, because it have not started there yet. What else can you say about the country where supermarkets close at 5pm, with "late night shopping" on Thursdays, when shops closed "late", i.e. at 8pm. I kid you not. It's different now, of course, but it looks they have more catch up to do, judging by the table.
Anyway, as I said above, I was in both situations, a main earner (having a nanny for 11 hours a day) and as a staying at home mom (not completely, since I did my graduate degrees, but this gave me an opportunity to stay at home much more when I considered this a priority).
I'm a mechanical engineer, and my womb never came between me and professional success, but prejudices did, and not so much from my male colleagues, as from mostly female HR. .. go figure ...
"Why is almost every thread being diverted into an endless loop of discussion about abortion."
Uhhh, ever heard of Roe v Wade? Yes, the wound this decision caused on the body politic is that devastatingly bad...
chickenlittle said...
100 years ago, a plurality of men willingly gave their lives for their women and children. I wonder how that situation would go down these days
If the accounts of the witnesses on that Italian cruise ship that sunk are accurate, the burly crew men were pushing women out of the way to get to the life boats.
Isn't progress grand?
Romney is rich. Rich people pay nannies and staff to do all the hard work of raising children.
She has no idea what hard work is other than how hard it is to find good help.
Do you genuinely not understand that reality?
"Why is almost every thread being diverted into an endless loop of discussion about abortion."
Uhhh, ever heard of Roe v Wade? Yes, the wound this decision caused on the body politic is that devastatingly bad...
Ummmm Yeah. I've also heard about chocolate chip cookies, but I don't bring them into every damn thread and try to derail the topic.
DBQ,
So you totally missed the point of the second sentence?
This is the big issue for the democrats? The War on Women? Picking fights with Sarah Palin and stay at home moms? Really? Christ, they are going to get their asses handed to them this fall. (I suspect they know this already)
Respect for a woman's choice is what is up in the air, we know what the right feels about choice in reproductive matters.
You just think you do. The “right” is far from monolithic. I myself am a (non-dogmatic, little-‘l’) libertarian, and I'm pro-choice — at least relatively early in the pregnancy. (But certainly not at the viable, “partial-birth abortion” stage, which is a euphemistic term for infanticide. If the baby is capable of living, then let it live.)
Libertarians have no home in the Democratic Party — nor can they have, given how nanny-statist liberals are these days. “Liberaltarians” are a myth.
"And here is a table for Europe: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908883.html . With all the EU regulations, women having less children on average there, and a better child care facilities their earnings lag behind even more than in the US."
But I didn't at *all* make an argument that women's wages are lower because they went to work. I said they were lower because they didn't go to work. And better child care facilities or not, if we're talking Europe, aren't we talking about taking an entire YEAR off any time we have a baby? A year off, and shorter work-weeks, etc., Everything there is about making it easier not to go to work, far as I can tell.
Of course, there is also the issue of choice... Who is taking childhood education courses or sociology and who is likely to be in a STEM major or business?
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