Now, he qualifies his religious views by saying he doesn’t vote against contraception “because it’s not the taking of a human life” (in other contexts he has emphasized that as a legal matter he has no problem with contraception). But how does that square with his professed belief that a candidate’s values are essential to understanding and predicting his behavior? Perhaps that’s an abortion-only rule.Watch the video at the link. Santorum says:
"I vote and have supported birth control because it is not the taking of a human life. But I’m not a believer in birth control and — artificial birth control — again, I think it goes down the line of being able to do whatever you want to do without having the responsibility that comes with that.... I think it breaks that … this is from a personal point of view. From a governmental point of view, I support Title 10 (I guess it is) and have voted for contraception — although I don’t think it works. I think it’s harmful to women. I think it’s harmful to our society to have a society that says that sex outside of marriage is something that should be encouraged or tolerated, particularly among the young. And I think it has it has — and we’ve seen — very, very harmful long-term consequences to a society. So, birth control — to me — enables that and I don’t think it’s a healthy thing for our country.”I'd like to see the whole transcript — and I will check his 2005 book, which I presume he was talking about. It's pretty clear just from that quote that he wasn't saying what he would do with governmental power. He was speaking "from a personal point of view," expressing the opinion something that people are now free to do isn't good for them and isn't good for society. It's a separate question whether he would deny us this freedom. He would deny us the freedom to have abortions, presumably, because that is "the taking of a human life" and thus important to him "from a governmental point of view."
Should voters worry about what Santorum might do with his personal beliefs if he gets into power? Note that the issue today isn't about banning birth control. It's about subsidies. What behavior are we incentivizing with government spending? The Obama administration wants to nudge people into using birth control, on the theory that's good policy. Santorum represents the opposite policy position, and not merely because he wants much less government spending. From his book ("It Takes a Family"):
[I]n this country, we continue to pour millions more dollars into comprehensive sex ed, which “protects” against the “effects” of unhealthy behavior, rather than promoting virtue, which will lead to healthy behavior. In 2002, the federal and state governments spent an estimated $1.73 billion on a wide variety of contraception promotion and pregnancy prevention programs. More than a third of that money—$653 million—was spent specifically to fund contraceptive programs for teens. In contrast, programs teaching teens to abstain from sexual activity received only an estimated $144.1 million in 2002. Overall, the government spent 12 dollars to promote contraception for every dollar spent to encourage abstinence. When I have attempted to increase abstinence funding at the expense of contraceptive funding, I have been scolded for “trying to impose religious values on children.” As if telling children to go ahead and have sex all they want as long as they use a condom is not a value statement. It may not be held by many formal religions, but it is certainly held by the materialist philosophy of the left that defends free-sex-and-condoms with religious zeal. If you ever wondered what moral message was being delivered to your children from Uncle Sam—or should I say Uncle Sigmund?—now you know.Santorum goes on to criticize the Supreme Court for finding a constitutional right to use contraception (even though, he says, if he'd been a legislator, he wouldn't have voted for the law).
The dissenting justices [in Griswold v. Connecticut] mocked the reasoning of the majority, which in some cases based itself not on the Constitution's text, but rather on the “traditions and [collective] conscience of our people.” How, asked the dissenters, could the Court know the conscience of the people better than legislators? Did not such reliance lead only to the substitution of judges' “personal and private notions” for the decisions of legislatures?...See? There's that idea of personal beliefs. Santorum doesn't like judges using "personal" views in the development of constitutional law. Of course, the judges — when they talk about the meaning of "liberty" in the Due Process Clause — say that they are finding a "principle of justice... rooted in the traditions and conscience of our people." Justice Black simply didn't think judges could do that.
Santorum's not running for judge, and the Justice Black approach leaves these things to the political branches of government. So, if Black was right, and personal views are going to affect decisions, then we can't get away from the reality that Santorum's personal views will affect his decisionmaking — including whom he will appoint to the Supreme Court, which has the power to reshape our due process rights, perhaps giving a lot more leeway to the political branches of government where Santorum's personal views will affect decisionmaking.
308 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 308 of 308The central project of civilization has been controlling women's bodies
You're welcome to your grass huts, then--we're taking our stuff back.
Jay said...
“They're not "listening to Bishops"
You understand it is possible to not be Catholic and opposed to this, right? You understand people have actually though about this before Obama forced in America, correct?”
Certainly I understand that some non-Catholics do not support this rule. But if a majority of the people in the country do support the rule, then who should prevail, the American people or a religious organization that doesn’t answer to the American people? What accountability does the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops have to the American people?
“By the way, since when do we elect people to follow polls? Do you cite polls that don't confirm to your political beliefs?”
You don’t think politicians pay attention to polls? If the polls indicated a majority were against this law I would certainly accept that. However, the other part of this issue is a separation of church and state issue. I’m not comfortable with a religious organization being exempted from a law in which noncompliance impacts individuals who are not members of the faith in question.
“In other words, using religion to shove policies down America's throats is ok, as long as you agree with the policy and pretend you've referenced other religions, right?”
I think there is a difference between a politician, who is accountable to the voters, referencing religion as opposed to a religious organization, such as the conference of bishops who is not accountable to the voters, in crafting legislation.
I’m not a big fane of having any religion involved in politics which, unfortunately, seems to be a requirement for office these days.
Jay said...
“he also referenced the Jewish and Muslim concepts of helping the less fortunate.”
I simply pointed out that you were focusing on the quote Obama made. He also referenced other religions during thee speech at the National Prayer breakfast.
Why is the president expected to attend the National Prayer breakfast in the first place?
As I stated previously, I think there is too much religion in politics.
Jay said...
“What "advice" are you referring to?
You have completely ignored any reference to medical evidence regarding the health risks associated with birth control pills.
Which enables you to make silly comments like you did.”
I never stated that there were no adverse effects of contraceptives. Like all medications they have both good and bad effects and I take advice regarding drugs from my physician instead of a politician.
Santorum:
“I was asked if I believed in it, and I said, ‘No, I’m a Catholic, and I don’t.’ I don’t want the government to fund it through Planned Parenthood, but that’s different than wanting to ban it; the idea I’m coming after your birth control is absurd. I was making a statement about my moral beliefs, but I won’t impose them on anyone else in this case. I don’t think the government should be involved in that. People are free to make their own decisions.’’
Of course the narrative has to change.
You don’t think politicians pay attention to polls? If the polls indicated a majority were against this law I would certainly accept that
All irrelevant.
We don't elect people to do what is popular.
Indicated by the fact we ended up with a Constitutional Republic.
I think there is a difference between a politician, who is accountable to the voters, referencing religion as opposed to a religious organization, such as the conference of bishops who is not accountable to the voters, in crafting legislation.
So religious organizations don't have 1st Amendment rights now?
I simply pointed out that you were focusing on the quote Obama made. He also referenced other religions during thee speech at the National Prayer breakfast.
So?
He's invoking religion and speaking to religious figures - who will carry the same message to their followers - and the religious figures are not accountable to the voters.
Funny how you can't follow your own logic and muster up any concern about this.
Gee, I wonder why that is?
chickenlittle said...
Why anyone would want Santorum as President is a mystery to me.
A problem for me is that the wrong people are saying he absolutely can't be President. And it's the same people, coincidently, who said Palin couldn't be President, or Gingrich, or Bachmann, etc.
===============
It's a question of viability in the general election.
Santorum may be fine with the religious righters determined to define the nominee as all about being a cultural warrior of total conservative purity in their heart....
But that is not going to fly in the general election.
=================
BTW, the people saying Newt or Goddess Palin can't be President have a point when a new poll shows Palin and Gingrich in a tie - for the most disliked politicians in America. 63% strong disapproval of Palin, 62% for Gingrich. Santorum got a pass on voters learning about his past deeds and religious right policies he wanted the Federal goverment to impliment.
Not now...the negatives on Santorum will be coming out..and they are extensive and the Pennsylvania Democrats know them all.
Sabinal,
You apparently aren't a person who can read carefully, either: the argument is not about whether the government will allow or ban contraception, the argument is whether the government will force third parties to pay for individuals' ongoing contraception costs.
Jay said...
"Santorum:
“I was asked if I believed in it, and I said, ‘No, I’m a Catholic, and I don’t.’ I don’t want the government to fund it through Planned Parenthood, but that’s different than wanting to ban it; the idea I’m coming after your birth control is absurd. I was making a statement about my moral beliefs, but I won’t impose them on anyone else in this case. I don’t think the government should be involved in that. People are free to make their own decisions.’’
That was in 2006.
Seems he has changed his position:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/rick-santorum-declared-contraception-harmful-to-women-in-2006/
“Santorum’s policy position has moved to the right since 2006. He now endorses repealing Clinton-era sections of Title X, the federal grant program that promotes family planning and provides funds to Planned Parenthood, according to his campaign website.
And his personal position against contraception has solidified. In October, he said in an interview with the Christian blog Caffeinated Thoughts that contraception use factors into “the whole sexual libertine idea.”
He said that as president, he would seek to repeal the Obama health care and get rid of any kind of idea that you have to have “any kind of abortion coverage, any kind of contraceptive coverage.”
And he said he disagrees with others in the Christian faith who believe that contraception is OK.
“It’s not OK because it’s a license to do things in the sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be,” he said. They’re supposed to be within marriage, they are supposed to be for purposes that are, yes, conjugal, but also, but also procreative. That’s the perfect way that a sexual union should happen. We take any part of that out, we diminish the act. And if you can take one part out that’s not for purposes of procreation, that’s not one of the reasons, then you diminish this very special bond between men and women, so why can’t you take other parts of that out? And all of a sudden, it becomes deconstructed to the point where it’s simply pleasure. And that’s certainly a part of it—and it’s an important part of it, don’t get me wrong—but there’s a lot of things we do for pleasure, and this is special, and it needs to be seen as special.”
Jay said...
“We don't elect people to do what is popular.
Indicated by the fact we ended up with a Constitutional Republic.”
We also shouldn’t be crafting legislation based on the inputs of a religious organization that doesn’t answer to the voters of this country in accordance with the Constitution. Let the voters decide.
“So religious organizations don't have 1st Amendment rights now?”
Sure, for secular issues of course. But should the position of a religious organization take precedence over the majority, particularly, as in this case, when a significant number of the followers of that faith don’t adhere to the tenet of the faith in question?
36fsfiend -
"I’m not a big fan of having any religion involved in politics which, unfortunately, seems to be a requirement for office these days."
---------------
Even the Democrats are now feeling the "heat" and at least go through the motions of showing faith. Left to himself, I'm sure Obama would rather be golfing.....
But where it shows up as a slowly diminishing "clubhouse" because each year it seems a new rule comes up is with the far right imposing their purity tests.
1. Don't believe in God or you are a skeptic about much of theology...then you are a RINO! Filthy RINO - no longer welcome in the clubhouse. (-20% of the American population.
2. Have an abortion, or support it? You are all lousy RINOs. Stay away. Vote for democrats. You have blood on your hands.
3. Log cabin Republicans? A joke. All you sodomites will go to hell according to the "conservative purists"...stay away from the new PArty of the Far Right and KKK descendents. Gay, lousy RINOs.
4. Mormons need not apply. Heretics. Not real Christians. RINOs!
Jay said...
“He's invoking religion and speaking to religious figures - who will carry the same message to their followers - and the religious figures are not accountable to the voters.”
The religious figures from the National Prayer breakfast may or may not carry Obama’s message to their followers. I haven’t seen a whole lot in the news about the conference of bishops backing the president’s plan for higher taxes on the wealthy. That may be the case, but the contraception issue is getting more attention. Why is that I wonder?
They certainly are not carrying his message regarding contraception to their followers. In fact, priests were railing against the contraception issue during their sermons on Sundays. In fact, according to Rubio, that is where he first learned of the issue which I find surprising.
Cedarford said...
“Even the Democrats are now feeling the "heat" and at least go through the motions of showing faith. Left to himself, I'm sure Obama would rather be golfing.....
But where it shows up as a slowly diminishing "clubhouse" because each year it seems a new rule comes up is with the far right imposing their purity tests.
1. Don't believe in God or you are a skeptic about much of theology...then you are a RINO! Filthy RINO - no longer welcome in the clubhouse. (-20% of the American population.
2. Have an abortion, or support it? You are all lousy RINOs. Stay away. Vote for democrats. You have blood on your hands.
3. Log cabin Republicans? A joke. All you sodomites will go to hell according to the "conservative purists"...stay away from the new PArty of the Far Right and KKK descendents. Gay, lousy RINOs.
4. Mormons need not apply. Heretics. Not real Christians. RINOs!”
I agree. Like prayer, I feel religion should be a private and personal matter. I think we should be following the No Religious Test Clause as stipulated in Article VI, Paragraph 3, of the Constitution.
We also shouldn’t be crafting legislation based on the inputs of a religious organization that doesn’t answer to the voters of this country in accordance with the Constitution. Let the voters decide.
Hysterical.
You understand priests and bishops have to right to vote, right?
That may be the case, but the contraception issue is getting more attention. Why is that I wonder?
Because nobody has ever done it before, maybe?
Duh.
In fact, priests were railing against the contraception issue during their sermons on Sundays.
Right. And, the same with the messages for higher taxes.
You're catching on...
We also shouldn’t be crafting legislation based on the inputs of a religious organization that doesn’t answer to the voters of this country in accordance with the Constitution.
But then you went and posted that drivel.
Whether you like it or not, religious organizations can and do have input on legislation.
The fact you can't bring yourself to accept this is telling.
You are either dishonest or stupid. Which is it?
that doesn’t answer to the voters of this country in accordance with the Constitution.
Your idea of "the constitution" is inane.
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
The religious figures from the National Prayer breakfast may or may not carry Obama’s message to their followers.
Notice you can't bring yourself to criticize Obama at all.
Why do you think that is?
When Obama was doing the same thing to get his health care bill passed, you were criticizing him, right?
*giggle*
Oh, and Have 98 percent of Catholic women used contraceptives? Not quite.
But you keep trotting out that phony statistic.
Jay said...
“You understand priests and bishops have to right to vote, right?”
Of course. But that’s not the issue at hand.
Tell you what, when the Catholic Church starts paying federal income taxes, then I may be on board with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops lobbying Congress.
Where was the seperation of church and state criticism from you clowns?
Obama Calls Health Plan a ‘Moral Obligation’
I know there’s been a lot of misinformation in this debate, and there are some folks out there who are frankly bearing false witness,” Mr. Obama told a multidenominational group of pastors, rabbis and other religious leaders who support his goal to remake the nation’s health care system.
Why is it ok that Obama pushes his morals on us?
Why was it ok Obama was crafting legislation based on the inputs of a religious organization that doesn’t answer to the voters of this country?!?
Tell you what, when the Catholic Church starts paying federal income taxes, then I may be on board with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops lobbying Congress.
Um, 49% of Americans don't pay federal income taxes.
You're against them lobbying congress, right?
(It is so funny to watch you stupid leftists try and keep your logic straight).
Poll taxes are back!
Jay said...
“Because nobody has ever done it before, maybe?”
A similar law has been on the books of 28 states for some time now. As a matter of fact the federal rule is based on the one in California and New York and is less restrictive in some cases.
“Right. And, the same with the messages for higher taxes.”
Maybe so, I haven’t seen much in the news about that issue and the Church.
“Whether you like it or not, religious organizations can and do have input on legislation.”
Unfortunately, you are correct. All the more reason in my opinion they should be subjected to federal taxes.
Tell you what, when the Catholic Church starts paying federal income taxes, then I may be on board with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops lobbying Congress.
Tell you what, when Planned Parenthood starts paying federal income taxes, then I may be on board with Planned Parenthood lobbying Congress.
Isn't the 1st Amendment fun?
A similar law has been on the books of 28 states for some time now.
Which is irrelevant because nobody in the federal government ever tried it before.
Jay said...
“The religious figures from the National Prayer breakfast may or may not carry Obama’s message to their followers.
Notice you can't bring yourself to criticize Obama at all.
Why do you think that is?
When Obama was doing the same thing to get his health care bill passed, you were criticizing him, right?”
I already stated I think there is a difference between a politician, who is accountable to the voters, evoking religion, which I’m not a fan of, and a religious organization that is not accountable to the people lobbying Congress.
“Oh, and Have 98 percent of Catholic women used contraceptives? Not quite.”
Yes, they didn’t survey 98 year old women in the survey. They surveyed women in child bearing age range. That doesn’t lessen the impact of the fact that 98 percent of those Catholic women in the child bearing age range have used contraceptives against the teachings of the Church.
I will also point you to this survey conducted by CBS News:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57377864-503544/poll-most-back-mandating-contraception-coverage/
“According to a survey, conducted between Feb. 8-13, 61 percent of Americans support federally-mandated contraception coverage for religiously-affiliated employers; 31 percent oppose such coverage.
“The number is similar among self-professed Catholics surveyed: 61 percent said they support the Obama administration’s rule, while 32 percent oppose it.”
Jay said...
Where was the seperation of church and state criticism from you clowns?
Obama Calls Health Plan a ‘Moral Obligation’
I know there’s been a lot of misinformation in this debate, and there are some folks out there who are frankly bearing false witness,” Mr. Obama told a multidenominational group of pastors, rabbis and other religious leaders who support his goal to remake the nation’s health care system.
Why is it ok that Obama pushes his morals on us?
Why was it ok Obama was crafting legislation based on the inputs of a religious organization that doesn’t answer to the voters of this country?!?”
For the third time, I think there is a difference between a politician, who is accountable to the voters, evoking religion, which I’m not a fan of, and a religious organization that is not accountable to the people lobbying Congress.
Jay said...
"Tell you what, when Planned Parenthood starts paying federal income taxes, then I may be on board with Planned Parenthood lobbying Congress."
Are they a religious institution? The First Amendment specifically addresses religion.
Jay said...
"Which is irrelevant because nobody in the federal government ever tried it before."
It is relevant in regards to this whole "religious freedoms are being violated" meme.
Dinner calls. See you.
Watching Jay eviscerate fiend reminds me that it really isn't an equal playing field when conservatives debate dems. I was wondering why lefty argumentation is so weak and I have figured it out.
Conservatives have an actual political philosophy that is based on consistent principles. It is easy to construct a consistent logical conservative argument based on conservative principles.
The dems don't have a political philosophy. They aren't progressive or liberal. What dems have is more of a political business model. They recognize or construct Privileged Interest Groups (PIGs) and get the votes of the PIGs by grabbing for the PIGs more than their fair share via fed legislation. It is like Animal Farm except that there are no heroes (it is PIGs all the way down).
To dems, the ends justifies the means. They don't need no stinking principles. They are disciples of Alinsky and feel that if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
Dems need a journo-list to coordinate their stories, since their stories are neither fact nor logic based. The centralized fabrication/distribution facility (i.e. journo-list) gets everybody on the same page. That sounds more like "1984" than "Animal Farm". Either way, Orwell had the lefties pegged.
"Conservatives have an actual political philosophy that is based on consistent principles."
Assuming your gobbledygook is true, which it isn't, mittens should just withdrawal now and Santorum should continue to run as a strict conservative even though he isn't, hence, ergo, therefore giving Obama an easy victory over an extremist.
Indeed, there's a reason knowledgeable political operatives say presidential candidates should campaign towards either core liberals or conservatives in their party in the primaries and then turn their campaign towards the middle in the general. Knowing no true hard core conservative or liberal is ever likely to win the presidency.
After Santo's (((conservative))) Terri Schiavo "moment" in the U.S. senate chambers, he lost by (17) pts. in PA to Casey. One of the largest losses for an incumbent senator in history.
>
SK, life must be very easy for you since you "appear" to deal only in absolutes. :D
>
And a friendly reminder buddy :-P you're now totally avoiding me, so I wouldn't want you to go against your core principles and reply lol.
Never say never ...
Jay said...
“Tell you what, when the Catholic Church starts paying federal income taxes, then I may be on board with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops lobbying Congress.
Um, 49% of Americans don't pay federal income taxes.
You're against them lobbying congress, right?
(It is so funny to watch you stupid leftists try and keep your logic straight).
Poll taxes are back!”
Many of those people who don’t pay federal income taxes are typically older and poorer individuals. Also families with children get breaks. Many are not economically able to do so unlike the Church which has been able to payout over $2 billion in this country alone for settlements and legal fees related to the sex abuse scandal.
fiend
"If the government doesn’t regulate the drug industry, who will? My family and I are not willing to be guinea pigs in a trial and error approach to medicine."
I did not mention the drug industry or regulation. I'm talking about support and legislation of harmful things in service to social engineering. That is the place where what is harmful is less important than what is good for the social engineers. Try to disprove that.
wyo sis said...
“I did not mention the drug industry or regulation. I'm talking about support and legislation of harmful things in service to social engineering. That is the place where what is harmful is less important than what is good for the social engineers. Try to disprove that.
wyo sis,
In your earlier comment, you stated:
“If the government stayed in it's appropriate role (as stated in the Constitution), people would get to evaluate the harm and choose a course of action independent of government and they would pay for it themselves. That is the way it should be.”
Since we are discussing contraceptives, which is a drug, I assumed you were referring to the government’s involvement in regulating drugs.
What harmful things in service to social engineering is the government supporting in this case? Allowing people greater access to contraceptives, which have been around since the 1960s? Do you believe there is going to be an increase in the amount of sex? There certainly shouldn’t be an increase in the number of abortions. Hopefully, the number of abortions under this policy will decrease.
Ann Althouse said...
"It was only after posting that comment that it occurred to me that in both cases, the government official is fixated on women's bodies."
It's not surprising. The central project of civilization has been controlling women's bodies.
------------------
I missed this comment and how true it is about BOTH Santorum and Obama. Why is Obama putting up contraception for a discussion, for a vote, if you will? Why is he using us, women as pawns in his political calculations? It is another form of control, despicable.
"... Tell you what, when the Catholic Church starts paying federal income taxes, then I may be on board with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops lobbying Congress..."
Can we apply that same standard to the 47% of the electorate that don't pay federal income tax?
How about you must pay to play (vote)?
"... Allowing people greater access to contraceptives, which have been around since the 1960s?.."
When I was a horny teen back in the 80s, birth control was always behind the pharmacy country so you had to ask the pharmacist for a pack of Trojans or the sponge or whatever.
Now they have them right out in the open right next to the asprins taking up half the shelves. So it seems there is not only greater access but greater variety.
Again. What does it say about us when the fucking Federal government has to mandate something that is a pretty personal and intimate matter? Is there anything that liberals don't think the government should not involve themselves in?
Hoosier Daddy said...
“Tell you what, when the Catholic Church starts paying federal income taxes, then I may be on board with the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops lobbying Congress..."
Can we apply that same standard to the 47% of the electorate that don't pay federal income tax?
How about you must pay to play (vote)?”
Hoosier Daddy,
As I indicated up thread, many of those people who don’t pay federal income taxes are typically older and poorer individuals. Also families with children get breaks. Many are not economically able to do.
However, I think the Church, which spends thousands od dollars to lobby Congress and has paid out over $2 billion in this country alone for settlements and legal fees related to the sex abuse scandal, is a different situation.
"What harmful things in service to social engineering is the government supporting in this case? Allowing people greater access to contraceptives, which have been around since the 1960s? Do you believe there is going to be an increase in the amount of sex?"
The harmful thing is the harm birth control does to women. This is a risk vs cost decision that women should make independent of government interference either direction. The same applies to abortion.
If government supports a thing in the form of subsidizing it using other people's money it is either incentivising it or disincentivising it. That is not the role of government.
Many examples exist showing how the primary objective is social engineering not safety or any other cover. Take mercury for example. NOT OK in Tuna, just great in cf light bulbs especially if we can force people to buy them and thus control another aspect of their lives.
People are capable of making decisions for their own welfare and weighing the costs they are willing to pay. No amount of social engineering can replace all of these decisions without destroying freedom and creating chaos.
Hoosier Daddy said...
“When I was a horny teen back in the 80s, birth control was always behind the pharmacy country so you had to ask the pharmacist for a pack of Trojans or the sponge or whatever.
Now they have them right out in the open right next to the asprins taking up half the shelves. So it seems there is not only greater access but greater variety.”
Again, it’s a issue of people who are non-Catholic (and Catholics fo r that matter) being able to take advantage of a benefit under a public law. Why should a woman, who might work at a religious institution be denied a benefit provided by a law because of her employer’s religious belief? She didn’t sign away her personal beliefs to work at a public institution operated by a church.
Again. What does it say about us when the fucking Federal government has to mandate something that is a pretty personal and intimate matter? Is there anything that liberals don't think the government should not involve themselves in?”
And why do we have politicians trying to regulate what goes on in peoples’ bedrooms and what a woman can and cannot do with her body?
wyo sis said...
“The harmful thing is the harm birth control does to women. This is a risk vs cost decision that women should make independent of government interference either direction. The same applies to abortion.”
Government isn’t preventing a woman from consulting with her doctor on the risks versus benefits of using contraceptives. The government is not forcing anyone to involuntarily take birth control pills.
“If government supports a thing in the form of subsidizing it using other people's money it is either incentivising it or disincentivising it. That is not the role of government.”
So using your example, the government should do away with tax credits given to couples with children, correct? If I don’t have children, I don’t get a tax break so in essence I’m helping to pay for that credit. Which I’m fine with by the way.
“Many examples exist showing how the primary objective is social engineering not safety or any other cover. Take mercury for example. NOT OK in Tuna, just great in cf light bulbs especially if we can force people to buy them and thus control another aspect of their lives.”
Eating a fish contaminated with Mercury is not quite the same thing as using a light bulb in which the Mercury is safely contained.
“People are capable of making decisions for their own welfare and weighing the costs they are willing to pay. No amount of social engineering can replace all of these decisions without destroying freedom and creating chaos.”
I don’t believe freedom is being destroyed in this case. Again, the government is not forcing anyone to use contraceptives against their will.
fiend
Yes, the government should get rid of tax credits to couples with children.
You’re right about the mercury risk. The cf bulb is much more harmful. Tell me you never broke a light bulb. And if you did, did you have to use hazmat methods to clean it up?
I mention that there are such things as personal decisions that the government has no role in, and you conflate it to mean force. You are OK with paying through taxation a credit for me because I have children. I’m not. My children are not your concern and they’re not the government’s concern either, except for the Constitutional guarantees they have as citizens.
The message here is---government has no business engineering my life or yours or anyone’s.
I reject your notion of the role of government.
wyo sis said...
fiend
Yes, the government should get rid of tax credits to couples with children.
You’re right about the mercury risk. The cf bulb is much more harmful. Tell me you never broke a light bulb. And if you did, did you have to use hazmat methods to clean it up?
I mention that there are such things as personal decisions that the government has no role in, and you conflate it to mean force. You are OK with paying through taxation a credit for me because I have children. I’m not. My children are not your concern and they’re not the government’s concern either, except for the Constitutional guarantees they have as citizens.
The message here is---government has no business engineering my life or yours or anyone’s.
I reject your notion of the role of government.”
wyo sis,
I’m surprised that you are against tax credits for children. Have you taken advantage of such credits?
Yes, I have broken light bulbs in the past and I haven’t used HAZMAT to clean them up.
Regarding you comment that there are such things as personal decisions that the government has no role and conflating that to mean force, in this case the government is simply making the contraceptives more readily available. If someone doesn’t want to use contraceptives, they are not being required to do so. If someone wanted to use them in the past, but was unable to for some reason now they will have more opportunity. Of course, if your religious belief is against contraceptives, then you will consider that wrong. However, the government should not be acting based on one particular religious belief. Concerning medical procedures, the government should be acting on the advice of the medical community which is what they are doing in this case.
wyo sis, if the proposed legislation that allows any employer to deny insurance based on religious beliefs is passed, what happens to people who work for an employer who doesn’t believe in blood transfusions? How about if an employer doesn’t believe in medicine at all, only in the healing power of prayer? Where does this stop?
Maybe it stops with the idea that employers have to provide health insurance for their employees. Why can't employers just pay their employees and let the employee choose the insurance they want.
Yes, I've taken child credits. They are there. You really can't escape them. If they weren't there I wouldn't miss them.
Why is my child any business of yours? Only because your taxes are given to me and others who have children. I guess that's why your birth control methods or your light bulbs are my business. We should get out of each others business.
And, since I forget to mention it, when you failed to properly clean up the hazardous mercury spill you released when the light bulb broke, you have been exposed to much more mercury than you will experience eating tuna.
wyo sis said...
“Maybe it stops with the idea that employers have to provide health insurance for their employees. Why can't employers just pay their employees and let the employee choose the insurance they want.
Yes, I've taken child credits. They are there. You really can't escape them. If they weren't there I wouldn't miss them.
Why is my child any business of yours? Only because your taxes are given to me and others who have children. I guess that's why your birth control methods or your light bulbs are my business. We should get out of each others business.”
wyo sis,
Well, the idea that employers just pay their employees and let the employee choose the insurance they want will result in higher premiums. The employers can gain lower premiums for their workers through economies of scale.
As far as tax credits for children, I have no problem with them. Same for paying taxes that support schools, school buses, teachers’ salaries and other related expenses. Although I don’t have children that use these services, I consider my tax payments to these services as an investment in the community and country.
As far as the birth control issue, although I believe abortion should remain legal, I’m not a big fan of abortion. If this new policy on contraceptives helps to reduce the number of abortions in this country I believe that would be a positive outcome.
The government has been and always will be a factor in our lines. One of the reasons that we have such a strong nation is because we have a strong government. I don’t know if you have every lived abroad or not. I’ve had the opportunity to live in a couple countries with weak and corrupt governments. It makes a difference in the lives of the citizens.
wyo sis said...
“And, since I forget to mention it, when you failed to properly clean up the hazardous mercury spill you released when the light bulb broke, you have been exposed to much more mercury than you will experience eating tuna.”
It’s been awhile. Maybe I’m thinking of a different type of light bulb.
Government overreach is the problem. It is not the function of government to legislate cheap insurance.
I must be getting blocked. So I guess fiend gets the last word. That's OK it was a silly one.
wyo sis said...
"Government overreach is the problem. It is not the function of government to legislate cheap insurance."
What is considered cheap is an individual call. What you consider cheap may be prohibitively expensive for someone else.
If Obama care stands get back to me later on the real cost of health insurance. Prohibitively expensive is when the expense takes the whole health care economy down and no one gets care.
wyo sis said...
"If Obama care stands get back to me later on the real cost of health insurance. Prohibitively expensive is when the expense takes the whole health care economy down and no one gets care."
I don't think that will occur. Unlike the financial services industry which had no problem destroying itself because of unbridled greed, I don't think the insurance industry wants to put itself out of business.
Hello! They won't put themselves out of business government overreach will. Social engineering!
wyo sis said...
"Hello! They won't put themselves out of business government overreach will. Social engineering!"
I don't think it is social engineering for the government to work with private insurance companies to increase the availability of health insurance coverage for all Americans.
This idea has been around for something like 90 years.
What a disingenuous understatement of Obama care.
It doesn't matter how long an idea has been around a bad idea is a bad idea.
wyo sis said...
"What a disingenuous understatement of Obama care.
It doesn't matter how long an idea has been around a bad idea is a bad idea."
Well, what I think is disingenuous is that the program has not even been fully implemented. How about we give it a try and if it ends up being so terrible as so many claim it will be, it can be easily repealed. Or, perhaps it could be modified and improved.
Easily replaced? When was the last time a government program was easily replaced?
When was the last time a government program worked the way it was sold to work? There is always a catch, usually intended, but even the unintended consequences cause more government in people's lives and less freedom.
or repealed
wyo sis said...
"Easily replaced? When was the last time a government program was easily replaced?"
DADT was successfully repealed.
"When was the last time a government program worked the way it was sold to work? There is always a catch, usually intended, but even the unintended consequences cause more government in people's lives and less freedom."
Well, all kinds of folks were bad mouthing the auto industry bailout. Now it looks like things are turning around in Detroit:
http://www.freep.com/article/20120216/COL06/120216046/Tom-Walsh-Mitt-Romney-column-auto-rescue
From the article:
"Today ... General Motors reported $7.6 billion in 2011 profits and announced profit-sharing checks of $7,000 per worker for hourly employees."
It's good to see the auto industry coming back and stimulating the economy with good paying jobs.
Hide and watch. This is not the truth. Lies and obfuscations made easier by the fact that GM is now in the hands of the government and unions.
If the government really wanted to stimulate jobs we'd have people employed on a pipeline from Canada.
Goodnight.
Social engineers using other people's money are about to own us all and thus everything we do that affects our bodies. And you seem to be OK with that. Hope that won't give you nightmares.
wyo sis said...
"Hide and watch. This is not the truth. Lies and obfuscations made easier by the fact that GM is now in the hands of the government and unions.
If the government really wanted to stimulate jobs we'd have people employed on a pipeline from Canada."
I have no reason to hide. And I think it's a good idea to take a good look at the Keystone pipeline project as it will be traversing sensitive lands and an aquifer in Nebraska.
I mean look what happen in the Gulf of Mexico with the Deep Water Horizon accident because of shoddy work.
wyo sis said...
"Goodnight.
Social engineers using other people's money are about to own us all and thus everything we do that affects our bodies. And you seem to be OK with that. Hope that won't give you nightmares."
No nightmares.
Nice chatting with you. Good evening.
"Today ... General Motors reported $7.6 billion in 2011 profits and announced profit-sharing checks of $7,000 per worker for hourly employees."
Hysterical.
Um, the federal government has lost $26 billion in GM.
No mention of that.
Allowing people greater access to contraceptives, which have been around since the 1960s?
There is no access problem with contraceptives in America.
I already linked to a CDC report on this, you are perpetrating lies.
And why do we have politicians trying to regulate what goes on in peoples’ bedrooms and what a woman can and cannot do with her body?
Except nobody is regulating any such thing.
You are nothing but a bad talking point.
"It's interesting that you could see this trend in jurisprudence coming since at least the 1980s. As I remember, that's approximately when Ronald Dworkin popularized this view that judges reach correct ruling by applying what they consider to be the most moral/"just" interpretation of the law that is "reasonably" consistent with case law. Recently you even saw Judge Posner talking this way."
"Click the link on the words I quoted there. It's a 1937 case. It's the most well-established interpretation of substantive due process there is, and during the Warren Court era, the time of Griswold, it was the interpretive approach associated with the conservative Justice Harlan."
I checked out that ruling. Interesting. I'm afraid the 1980s in just when I became aware of it :)
Interesting: 36fsfiend's case rests on the premise that a public law should have no exceptions for religious institutions working in the public sphere. David Rivkin and Edward Whelan write this morning, though, that by making no exceptions, the Obama administration is breaking the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993. Big takeaway: The law also provides that any later statutory override of its protections must be explicit. But there is nothing in the ObamaCare legislation that explicitly or even implicitly overrides the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The birth-control mandate proposed by Health and Human Services is thus illegal.
So there's your reason why religious institutions ought to be treated differently: it's the law.
Jay said...
“Um, the federal government has lost $26 billion in GM.
No mention of that.”
Yes, if the government sold it’s holding in stock today:
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/02/17/gm-posts-record-earnings-is-it-ready-to-repay-bailout/
No different if I sold some of my positions that are down right now. No loss accrued unless I sell.
I guess you believe we should have let the industry collapse.
Jay said...
"And why do we have politicians trying to regulate what goes on in peoples’ bedrooms and what a woman can and cannot do with her body?
Except nobody is regulating any such thing."
You're kidding, right?
slarrow said...
“Interesting: 36fsfiend's case rests on the premise that a public law should have no exceptions for religious institutions working in the public sphere. David Rivkin and Edward Whelan write this morning, though, that by making no exceptions, the Obama administration is breaking the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993. Big takeaway: The law also provides that any later statutory override of its protections must be explicit. But there is nothing in the ObamaCare legislation that explicitly or even implicitly overrides the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The birth-control mandate proposed by Health and Human Services is thus illegal.
So there's your reason why religious institutions ought to be treated differently: it's the law.”
Slarrow,
It appears that this is act has been challenged in the past because it overstepped Congress's power to enforce the Fourteenth Amendment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Freedom_Restoration_Act#Challenges_and_weaknesses
I'm sure the DHHS consulted their legal experts before making the decision to implement the rule on contraception.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in regards to the Commerce Clause, Necessary and Proper Clause and the application of the Fourteenth Amendment.
My position still is that if an employer, including a religious organization, voluntarily elects to participate in the public sector, they need to be accommodating to the beliefs and needs of all their employees and not simply their own. Since these religious organizations voluntarily provide services in the public sector I do not see this mandate as a violation of religious freedoms.
In fact, I believe using religious freedom as the pretext for repealing the mandate is disingenuous. These religious institutions state they find services such as contraception objectionable on moral grounds. However, the salaries they provide their employees can be used by those employees to purchase numerous services or products deem objectionable including abortions, contraceptives, alcohol and pornography. Thus, these religious institutions are, in effect, indirectly supporting these activities it finds objectionable. Indeed, if these religious institutions were truly concerned about not supporting these activities, they would only employ individuals who practice the faith in question since, presumably, these individuals would comply with the tenets of the faith. And in that case, the exemption would not be an issue.
Jay said...
"There is no access problem with contraceptives in America."
There's no access problem for Viagra as well. Yet it is covered by insurance.
36fsfiend said...
There's no access problem for Viagra as well. Yet it is covered by insurance.
Where is the federal mandate that Viagara is covered by insurance?
Further, even if Viagara were covered that doesn't mean there is a birth control access problem.
You can grasp that fact, right?
Thanks in advance.
36fsfiend said...
You're kidding, right?
No, I'm not kidding.
You can't cite an example of someone trying to "regulate what goes on in the bedroom"
At all.
Yes, if the government sold it’s holding in stock today:
Yes, and tomorrow.
And next year.
By the way, how long should the federal government hold stock in a car company, forever?
You've been asked this before and refused to answer, why do you think that is?
I guess you believe we should have let the industry collapse.
Um, "the industry" wasn't going to "collapse"
We can add bankruptcy proceedings to the things you are wholly ignorant of.
Jay said...
“By the way, how long should the federal government hold stock in a car company, forever?”
Until they see a return on their investment. Have you ever bought and sold securities?
“You've been asked this before and refused to answer, why do you think that is?”
Negative. I haven’t been asked. You seemed confused. Maybe you need to reread your postings.
Jay said...
"You can't cite an example of someone trying to "regulate what goes on in the bedroom"
You can read the link I posted earlier regarding Santorum's current position on birth control.
Jay said...
"Where is the federal mandate that Viagara is covered by insurance?
Further, even if Viagara were covered that doesn't mean there is a birth control access problem."
I never stated there was a mandate for Viagra. I simply stated that even though Viagra is readily available, it is covered by insurance.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91538#.Tz6u-FGlGOU
Some people, including you, have made a case against the contraception mandate because contraception is readily available, i.e., why does it need to be covered by insurance?
I'm simply pointing out the fallacy of that point.
You can grasp that simple comparison, correct?
Some people, including you, have made a case against the contraception mandate because contraception is readily available, i.e., why does it need to be covered by insurance?
I'm simply pointing out the fallacy of that point.
Except you didn't point out a fallacy at all.
And the fact that you believe you did, speaks volumes.
You can read the link I posted earlier regarding Santorum's current position on birth control.
Your "link" is irrelevant.
Santorum is not trying to prevent anyone from acquiring birth control.
That is a fact.
36fsfiend said...
Until they see a return on their investment. Have you ever bought and sold securities?
So you're ok with the government owning stock in a car company? That is a good idea?
Further, what happens when seeing a "return on the investment" isn't possible? Then what? Note: the Government lost $1.2 billion on Chrysler.
36fsfiend said...
Some people, including you, have made a case against the contraception mandate because contraception is readily available, i.e., why does it need to be covered by insurance?
I'm simply pointing out the fallacy of that point.
You can grasp that simple comparison, correct?
Er, you demonstrated no "fallacy"
The federal government doesn't mandate Viagara being covered by insurance.
And even if the federal government did that does make it all ok. Two wrongs wouldn't make a right.
You really have no clue what "fallacy" means.
Jay,
My comment:
“Some people, including you, have made a case against the contraception mandate because contraception is readily available, i.e., why does it need to be covered by insurance?
I'm simply pointing out the fallacy of that point.”
Your response:
“Except you didn't point out a fallacy at all.
And the fact that you believe you did, speaks volumes.”
Here’s your comment from 2/16/12 12:09 PM:
“Nobody is denying her (a woman at a religious institution) treatment.
Anywhere. At all.
Birth control pills are $9 a month at Walmart. She could go buy some.”
So, do you think that birth control should or should not be covered by insurance policies like Viagra?
Jay said...
"Santorum is not trying to prevent anyone from acquiring birth control."
The man is against the use of birth control outside of marriage.
You must be naive to believe that if in power he wouldn't support measures to limit contraceptives.
Jay said...
"So you're ok with the government owning stock in a car company? That is a good idea?"
No,I'm not necessarily OK with the government owning stock in a car company. But contrary to your point, the Treasury has not lost the money on the stock they own because they have not sold it yet.
Jay said...
“The federal government doesn't mandate Viagara being covered by insurance.”
For the second time, I did not state there is mandate for insurance to cover Viagra.
“And even if the federal government did that does make it all ok. Two wrongs wouldn't make a right.”
Well, I guess from your point of view it is wrong to mandate either Viagra or contraceptives. My point is if Viagra is covered by insurance then contraceptives should also be covered by insurance.
My point is if Viagra is covered by insurance then contraceptives should also be covered by insurance.
Um, that's great, but that isn't the issue here.
The issue is the federal mandate which you keep pretending isn't the issue.
36fsfiend said...
The man is against the use of birth control outside of marriage.
You must be naive to believe that if in power he wouldn't support measures to limit contraceptives.
Actually, he's opposed to birth control inside marriage.
But of course Santorum was in Congress from Jan 1995 to Jan 2007. And you can find no examples of him trying to ban birth control.
So, do you think that birth control should or should not be covered by insurance policies like Viagra?
It is amazing you can't grasp this.
A. There is no federal mandate for Viagara in insurance policies. That fact obsoletes your "analogy" in the entirety.
B. Just because Viagara is covered by state mandates, doesn't make birth control pills ok by federal mandate.
C. Governments should not be in the business of mandating anything in insurance policies.
I'm not sure what you can't grasp here.
36fsfiend said...
The man is against the use of birth control outside of marriage.
You must be naive to believe that if in power he wouldn't support measures to limit contraceptives.
Santorum:
“I was asked if I believed in it, and I said, ‘No, I’m a Catholic, and I don’t.’ I don’t want the government to fund it through Planned Parenthood, but that’s different than wanting to ban it; the idea I’m coming after your birth control is absurd. I was making a statement about my moral beliefs, but I won’t impose them on anyone else in this case. I don’t think the government should be involved in that. People are free to make their own decisions.’’
You are incorrect.
No,I'm not necessarily OK with the government owning stock in a car company. But contrary to your point, the Treasury has not lost the money on the stock they own because they have not sold it yet.
Well, except for the fact Treasury has to borrow money to buy the stock.
Of course you'd have to be pretty naive to believe the US Treasury will recover that money.
PS:
Actually, by the U.S. Treasury’s own admission, there is some $28 billion left unpaid of the TARP funds that General Motors received in 2009. You can get daily updates here. As of Feb. 16, GM’s bailout had a realized loss of about $4.4 billion. Total losses across all auto bailouts so far is $5.7 billion.
It isn't just the stock...
Jay said...
“My point is if Viagra is covered by insurance then contraceptives should also be covered by insurance.
Um, that's great, but that isn't the issue here.
The issue is the federal mandate which you keep pretending isn't the issue.”
I know that’s not the issue. I’m asking if you believe contraceptives should be covered by insurance policies? Yes or no?
Jay said...
"Actually, he's opposed to birth control inside marriage.
But of course Santorum was in Congress from Jan 1995 to Jan 2007. And you can find no examples of him trying to ban birth control."
And, based on his latest rhetoric, you don't think he would support measures against birth control if he became president?
Jay said...
So, do you think that birth control should or should not be covered by insurance policies like Viagra?
It is amazing you can't grasp this.
A. There is no federal mandate for Viagara in insurance policies. That fact obsoletes your "analogy" in the entirety.
B. Just because Viagara is covered by state mandates, doesn't make birth control pills ok by federal mandate.
C. Governments should not be in the business of mandating anything in insurance policies.
I'm not sure what you can't grasp here."
Again, do you think contraceptives should be covered by insurance? I'm not talking about the mandate, just about generic insurance policies?
Jay said...
Santorum:
“I was asked if I believed in it, and I said, ‘No, I’m a Catholic, and I don’t.’ I don’t want the government to fund it through Planned Parenthood, but that’s different than wanting to ban it; the idea I’m coming after your birth control is absurd. I was making a statement about my moral beliefs, but I won’t impose them on anyone else in this case. I don’t think the government should be involved in that. People are free to make their own decisions.’’
Based on the statement below, I don't believe him:
“It’s (contraception)not OK because it’s a license to do things in the sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be,” he said. They’re supposed to be within marriage, they are supposed to be for purposes that are, yes, conjugal, but also, but also procreative. That’s the perfect way that a sexual union should happen. We take any part of that out, we diminish the act. And if you can take one part out that’s not for purposes of procreation, that’s not one of the reasons, then you diminish this very special bond between men and women, so why can’t you take other parts of that out? And all of a sudden, it becomes deconstructed to the point where it’s simply pleasure. And that’s certainly a part of it—and it’s an important part of it, don’t get me wrong—but there’s a lot of things we do for pleasure, and this is special, and it needs to be seen as special.”
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/rick-santorum-declared-contraception-harmful-to-women-in-2006/
Based on the statement below, I don't believe him:
Hilarious.
Of course not.
He only expressly stated the opposite of what you believe and he was in Congress for 12 years and there is nothing in the record to indicate he would act in a way you believe.
Again, do you think contraceptives should be covered by insurance?
If an insurance company wants to offer it, sure.
If a government mandates an insurance company must, no.
Jay said...
"He only expressly stated the opposite of what you believe and he was in Congress for 12 years and there is nothing in the record to indicate he would act in a way you believe."
I think his position has moved further right from when he was in Congress.
Jay said...
"If an insurance company wants to offer it, sure.
If a government mandates an insurance company must, no."
OK.
Jay said...
"Well, except for the fact Treasury has to borrow money to buy the stock.
Of course you'd have to be pretty naive to believe the US Treasury will recover that money.
PS:
Actually, by the U.S. Treasury’s own admission, there is some $28 billion left unpaid of the TARP funds that General Motors received in 2009. You can get daily updates here. As of Feb. 16, GM’s bailout had a realized loss of about $4.4 billion. Total losses across all auto bailouts so far is $5.7 billion.
It isn't just the stock..."
Well, the loss is not $28 billion as initially stated. And without seeing a cost analysis of the loss from the bailout versus the impact of a full bankruptcy on the economy it is hard to gauge how significant $5.7 billion is in the scheme of things.
Jay said...
"Hilarious.
Of course not.
He only expressly stated the opposite of what you believe and he was in Congress for 12 years and there is nothing in the record to indicate he would act in a way you believe."
A quote from Santorum in a 2002 interview with the National Catholic Reporter:
“All of us have heard people say, ‘I privately am against abortion, homosexual marriage, stem cell research, cloning. But who am I to decide that it’s not right for somebody else?’ It sounds good,” Santourm said. “But it is the corruption of freedom of conscience.”
http://natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2002a/011802/011802f.htm
The guy is all about sex and making babies.
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