ADDED: Actually, he doesn't purport to know. He's just passing along some bullshit he heard.
I have no way to know whether this is true or not. But I'd love to hear from Mormon readers if this analysis of Mitt strikes them in any way as accurate.When is it okay to spread stuff like this around? Isn't this prejudice and bigotry? Is it a special thing reserved for Mormons? For your political enemies? Test yourself out, Andrew. Imagine some friend of yours told you something like that about some other religious group. Test it with every religious group can think of, referring to political candidates that you like and dislike. Hold yourself to a neutral standard. Are you satisfied with what you've put out there?
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250 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 250 of 250Palladian,
I don't like humans any more than you do, but for now we're stuck with them.
Sure, but we don't have to put them all in power.
What's wrong with you?
Oh yeah - nobody's killed your family members, molested your kids, or tried to exert power over you.
Such a big heart you have - and such concern for your country:
Let the weirdoes rule because we have no choice, right?
Right?
We don't have any choice at all,...
I've stopped seeing posts after 200,...
IF Mitt Romney had such a great victory in Florida, why doesn't it translate to enthusiasm?
Instead we get bickering. About Mormonism.
Why not, instead, talk about how Gerald Ford wouldn't leave in 1976. But stayed on. And, kept the GOP election machinery to himself. (Suited the Bush family.)
When Americans had the choice, in 1976, 200 years after the birth of this country; the majority went to the polls and picked Jimmy Carter.
Now, the shallow suits in the GOP think that if they just make fun of Obama, they're gonna get to put in their "chosen" leader.
Newt was right about the decline.
While I guess talking about how Mitt attacked Newt, without addressing the issue of ideas ... We're supposed to believe this pony trick is something that's gonna get Mitt elected to the presidency?
Has Mitt written off the South the way LBJ did? How did that "write-off" work out for him?
While think Obama is just doomed to fail?
Why not think Americans will just put up with Obama because they already know the level of "bad?"
Nixon got re-elected.
And, no, unlike how Nixon got pulled out ... The GOP doesn't have the strength to pull Obama out of office. Stuffed shirts. Chinless wonders. And, lining up for earmarks.
Oh. And, you know what I learned tonight, reading through this thread? Mitt's vulnerable because he's a Mormon. He's different. He's not standard issue. He's not even McCain.
Why not just admit that you like what the communist system can do for you, Revie?
My favorite chapter in Das Kapital was the one where the workers are urged to make investors rich by undercutting the labor market.
What's your favorite chapter?
IF Mitt Romney had such a great victory in Florida, why doesn't it translate to enthusiasm?
Well, I'm mildly enthusiastic about neither Santorum nor Gingrich being the Republican nominee... does that count?
For some reason, I have to post to see anything after 200,...
Crack, It's an attempted hit job because its main form of argument is insinuation. The tell is the use of phrases like "it was widely seen as ..." when referring to something that doesn't stand on its own as a criticism, in hopes of leading the careless reader to infer some sort of wrongdoing.
You tote up instances of crimes committed by Mormons and ascribe those wrongs to Mormonism. That's a tactic used by bigots against their target groups all the time. I'm surprised that you would use it.
But you're right that I've had far fewer interactions with cultists than you have. It's possible that makes me uninformed about Romney. But it's also possible that your experiences with cultists have made you hypersensitive and therefore overly suspicious of Romney.
Ah. We should accept what you say in toto without commenting on the specifics in your posts. Doing so is cherry picking.
Look, you presented an example in a post of an asshole affiliated with the Mormon church who was harassing the daughter of a friend of yours. In that same post, in the next paragraph after presenting that example, you warned us not to think that Romney's coreligionists displaying similar conduct would not swarm the country if he were elected.
That makes no sense to me. You'd say I'm blind not to see the danger that represents. I'd say that you are conflating some very bad experiences you had with New Age and your wife into an indictment of all religion.
You're skirting the edge of blind intolerance if not already over it.
This is bullshit - not just that I can't see anything past 200, but the way non-Mormons have to ask, first, if someone's a Mormon to speak freely in Utah.
It's a cult.
For some reason, I have to post to see anything after 200,...
For the past couple of days it's been necessary to click on the thread title to go beyond the 200th comment.
For the past couple of days it's been necessary to click on the thread title to go beyond the 200th comment.
Also, it doesn't work in Firefox.
Anybody else unable to post from the preview box? It now takes me 3 tries to post a proofread comment. Without previewing, it only takes one try.
That seems like a bad incentive structure.
What if Mitt doesn't make it?
Why has the media played the drum roll that Mitt's "the chosen one?"
Isn't Sarah Palin's voice a threat? (In that she can send waves just by Twittering. Meaning except for her cell phone account ... which, maybe, costs $40 ... she has no politically burdensome expenses.)
It seems to me a lot of effort went into destroying Newt.
Insider's in Margaret Thatcher's own government did her in. Same thing happened to Newt. His "colleagues" weren't going to let her keep her seat. Newt, ditto. They weren't going to vote for him to continue as Speaker. It's a republican thing.
But what about lots of people who are hungering to hear ideas?
Was the bloody fight between Newt and Mitt supposed to offset the quest for some ideas about changing the "culture" of DC?
Maybe, Newt would need millions to regain a toe hold, ahead? But Sarah Palin doesn't need these.
And, if Sarah Palin writes another book? That's money into her bank account. Reason to get back on her touring bus. AND, CROWDS!
Not that I know the subject matter.
I do know, however, Jesus doesn't vote.
Enough with this bigot crapola!
There's a real Supreme Court case ... because the Mormon's, back in the late 1800's ... wanted their lifestyle accepted as a Constitutional choice, where having multiple wives fit into their religious beliefs.
Too bad Ann doesn't go back and refresh everyone's memories about this case. I don't know who wrote the opinion. But I do know "burning wives on the funeral pyre" also was an unacceptable religious practice.
Anyway, that's the turning point. That's when Mormon's got focused on getting into government jobs.
And, that's why Orin Hatch is such poison in the senate! Look where he sits! Look who really chooses our Supreme Court justices.
You think Obama won't have an argument to bring to Mitt's table?
Chip S.,
Crack, It's an attempted hit job because its main form of argument is insinuation. The tell is the use of phrases like "it was widely seen as ..." when referring to something that doesn't stand on its own as a criticism, in hopes of leading the careless reader to infer some sort of wrongdoing.
Not true - we're talking "beliefs," religion, and "spirituality" - how else do you pin it down? That's why I'm saying to take the totality of what I'm saying into consideration - actions speak louder than words - and Mormons (like all cultists) will deny everything. Ever heard Tom Cruise admit to Scientology deaths? Xenu? That Scientology is a cult? Or that it's, finally, dying - merely from exposure?
You tote up instances of crimes committed by Mormons and ascribe those wrongs to Mormonism. That's a tactic used by bigots against their target groups all the time. I'm surprised that you would use it.
I use it because cults pretty much behave the same. Normal people don't engage in these practices in these ways. I don't engage in "love bombing" or find myself regularly described as strange, in the way Romney does. (He does it because he's working on dual planes of thought, and trying not to be found out.) I understand cultists like you understand what a cross on a Christian indicates. They deal in symbolism - which you don't catch - and other forms that seem like smoke to others. How often have I heard NewAge described as "harmless" even as the body count rises? That's what's occurring here - you don't see the danger so you deny there is one - no matter how many facts of the effects of their "belief" I give you.
How do you capture a "belief," Chip?
But you're right that I've had far fewer interactions with cultists than you have. It's possible that makes me uninformed about Romney. But it's also possible that your experiences with cultists have made you hypersensitive and therefore overly suspicious of Romney.
No, as I said, my best friend is from a Mormon family. I have lived with, worked with, and am friends with Mormons. Also "Jack Mormons" (Mormons who no longer ascribe to the faith's teachings but are still in the fold through family ties) and former Mormons. I know them. I know their "beliefs" and their over-arching desire for power. Some (Jack Mormons and former Mormons) speak openly about what's going on - Mormons like Romney? Never.
It's just the way it is.
Yes, crack.
It's like Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare. If you want to see posts past the 200-mark ... you have to post one, or two, or three. Yourself.
Me? I think there are insiders, within the GOP, who'd like to see Mitt deflate. But then I think out comes the "draft Jeb Bush" placards. OY VEY.
Isn't Sarah Palin's voice a threat?
Apparently not.
The average age of the republican primary voters in the recent states are in the 60's, white, fat, deeply religious and hate gays. Sure spics and nigs hate fags big time too, but it is because of religion. Eddie Long was a big fag hater until he was doing a bunch of young boys and his wife left him but that is par for course. And girl, the pics you took of yourself to show the boys were not attractive.
Similar sample to posters here as far as age, except Pads natch-at least the age part and double the weight part. Think Chris Farley times 2.
It really says it all.
Fortunately, they will all be dead soon.
I am fortunate that in my work, family and social environment I don't have exposure to these trogs and I am sure they are grateful they don't have exposure to the fag too.
If my mother was sucking Romney's hog like Althouse is I would be mortified and deeply sad, but fortunately I don't have that problem.
tits.
I can tell that Sarah Palin's voice is considered a threat; because she's attacked, when all she does is offer up opinions on Twitter.
I also think Newt would have been an excellent door opener to IDEAS.
And, yes. I think Romney needs to clear others off the GOP ballot ... OR he can't just walk away with the whole pie.
Where's Mitt gonna get the votes, ahead? Do his challengers just erase themselves?
B,
Ah. We should accept what you say in toto without commenting on the specifics in your posts. Doing so is cherry picking.
No, I said you should regard and answer what I've said in toto - not "accept" - because then I'd be no better than Mormons.
Look, you presented an example in a post of an asshole affiliated with the Mormon church who was harassing the daughter of a friend of yours. In that same post, in the next paragraph after presenting that example, you warned us not to think that Romney's coreligionists displaying similar conduct would not swarm the country if he were elected.
I gave you a LOT more than just that - including links to even more.
That makes no sense to me. You'd say I'm blind not to see the danger that represents. I'd say that you are conflating some very bad experiences you had with New Age and your wife into an indictment of all religion.
1) Ann's post from yesterday, of another NewAge death, had nothing to do with my wife.
2) I am an atheist and a realist. "Beliefs" of any origin aren't going to get very far with me.
You're skirting the edge of blind intolerance if not already over it.
Considering I have the first-hand experience with what tolerance brings you - again: not just my wife but all the cults that dominate San Francisco - I don't shirk from being intolerant. Without the LDS there'd be no FLDS, or Elizabeth Smart kidnapping.
Why don't you ask her how tolerant she is now?
Titus,
I don't see Floridians as big church goers. I see them, though, as you describe. Old folks. And, even though Mitt collected them on Tuesday ... I really felt most of them are just Obama voters. In other words, at the end of the day, we were watching just Obama's voters.
Yeah. "Sticking it to the other guy."
I really think if Mitt had a real victory, the celebrations would be focused on BIG IDEAS. Where are they?
BIG IDEAS can be kept off the agenda for the next ten months?
Mitt Romney is gonna scare a lot more people than those he can attract for support.
The only thng I really learned from this thread was how to read comments past the 200 mark--thanks to those who 'splained the secret.
Roger J.,
The only thng I really learned from this thread was how to read comments past the 200 mark--thanks to those who 'splained the secret.
i got it, too - and damn.
James Randi always said defeating nonsense will be like trying to empty the ocean with a paper cup.
Smart man.
Hegelian,
The sermon you referenced illustrates my point exactly. The speaker has got Trinitarianism confused with Modalism. He thinks that the Biblical references he quotes that illustrate the distinct existence of the Father and the Son are contradictory to the Trinity, when in fact all they contradict is Modalism.
Classical Trinitarian doctrine is also careful to avoid "confounding [i.e. erasing the distinction between] the Persons," in the language of the Athanasian Creed.
The bottom line is that Mormon scripture expressly states that Jesus is God and that his Father is God, and that there is only one God. (See D&C ch. 20.)
If Mormons -- even Mormon authorities -- are in error about what the traditional creeds actually say, or entail, then their saying they reject the creeds may not actually mean they reject their actual content.
N.B., Hegelian, if you're calling Social Trinitarianism heresy, you're sending some *really* prominent Catholic and Protestant theologians to the stake, not to mention the Cappadocian Fathers. Ballsy, that.
By the way, does Romney have any LDS authority, other than being an important pol? I've never seen it mentioned, and it's not like Mormons make a secret of being in the hierarchy.
Okay, here goes. Romney, as all LDS men, are blessed at a certain age and after a certain amount of study, become Elders. Elders hold certain positions in all protestant churches as they do in the Mormon church.
All positions are unpaid.
An Elder or any woman will be "called" (assigned) jobs, from Sunday School teachers, to mucking out chicken coops for a welfare project.
Elders can be called as First or Second Counselor to the Bishopric of a Ward (individual congregation). These are like assistants to a pastor. Then there are Bishops who oversee the flock or congregation/Ward.
As you move up, there is the Stake President and his First and Second Counselors. A Stake oversees several Wards in a geographic area.
Romney was the Bishop of his Boston Ward for 7 years and he was also the Stake President of his area. I'm sure he has held other positions thruout his life, but I also know that while on his Mission in France, he became assistant to the Mission President of that Mission, which was a leadership position that is considered quite special.
In addition, a man will be called to be a Home Teacher. Home Teachers, in twos, like the Missionaries, are assigned several families in the Ward to look after and are expected to visit each family at least once a month, find out if they have any needs and report such to the Bishop and the Elders Quorum. When my husband was on deployment, the Elders would take turns cutting our grass, cleaning the pool filter, or do any small repairs I needed and would act as surrogates to our son for camp outings, Scout events and father-son events.
On the female side, there is the Relief Society, separate meetings each week where homemaking, cultural studies and other things are studied. Younger girls learn from older women on child care, cooking, and other young lady things. There is a Relief society president and her counselors. The Relief Society does the same as the Elders and assigns 2 women teans as Visiting Teachers to visit each of their families. When I broke my leg, between my Home Teachers and Visiting Teachers, meals were brought in for my family, transportation was arranged to get me to the doctor and later to work when I couldn't drive because of a full leg cast.
Besides normal church services, called Sacrament Meetings, there is also Sunday School, Relief Society, Elders Quorum Meetings. And Family Home Evenings on Monday nights that Mormons set aside to take time out from very busy lives to devote to the family.
Everything in the church has a manual or written material and study guides.
The highest church hierarchy is the Council of the Twelve headed by the Church President. Think of it as the Pope and his 12 Cardinals. This is the church governing body as well as its spiritual leadership.
There are paid positions in the church, but they are the lawyers, the IT people, architects, professionals.
And anyone who says that the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints does not put Christ in the center of its teachings and in the center of its member's lives, should repent and ask God for forgiveness for blasphemy against Christ. It is a lie spread by Evil.
I have it on good authority that Trig Palin is the love child of Mitt Romney and Michele Bachmann.
Got you, Andy!
Thought I'd give Sully a momentary rush of excitement to give him some relief from his grim existence.
How's that battle between Word and WordPerfect panning out these days? Seemed like WordPerfect fans were often plaintiffs in the antitrust suits brought against Microsoft back in the day. Was that a Mormon power grab/conspiracy?
I was raised a Presbyterian and converted to LDS 37 years ago, so I've seen both for many years. I find the LDS far more tolerant and their teachings of the Bible much more indepth. I also found the social aspects of the church to be very welcoming and especially good for raising children as there are so many activities from scouting, basketball, softball, pot luck dinners and just about any excuse for people to have a good time with each other. Mormons follow certain things like no alcohol or caffeine. This comes from the teaching that the body is the Temple of the Spirit and as such you shouldn't muck it up with drugs.
Mormons put an especially high priority to education, believing that the Glory of God is intelligence. The LDS have been cutting edge on developing computer tools/software to make researching easier. And I don't know if you are aware of how many companies you probably all deal with or have dealt with that are owned by the church or one of their subsidiary companies. Word Perfect was one. They developed some of the first database programs, and of course, they set the standard for genealogical programs. The maintain one of the greatest record libraries in the world and some of our government's most precious documents are stored in the LDS granite mountain state-of-the-art storage facility for all their original documents, microfilms, etc. The church runs all kinds of businesses from farms, to canneries, to processing plants. Almost everything from these facilities goes to the Church Distribution Centers for distribution to those in need.
If Romney is elected, the White House will be filled with the sounds of happy laughing children, singing, and people of good even temper. There will be parties, but you won't see any drunken bashes. There will be plenty of patriotism on display, and Christmas and Easter celebrations. And you will hear plenty of thanks being said.
Craig:
Those lawsuits were when Novell bought WP, not when it was an LDS company.
I guess this is what Andrew does when his victim doesn't have a uterus.
In which thread it is demonstrated again that the vast open mind of liberals does not exist. In which thread it is again demonstrated that progressives are as vile as it comes when their opposition holds to a faith inGod.
The open mind of liberals only translates to one earring marked In and the other Out.
Craig said...
How's that battle between Word and WordPerfect panning out these days? Seemed like WordPerfect fans were often plaintiffs in the antitrust suits brought against Microsoft back in the day
Because they liked a full service word processor rather than a buggy, virus-prone mess so simple even a Lefty could use it.
I'll actually agree with South Park here: It isn't my cup of tea, but Mormons seem like nice and well-adjusted people so if it works for them, more power to them.
The Left's virulent religious bigotry is in full display.
Andrew Sullivan is a devoted Obama worshipper. Romney is a threat. Sullivan is not a deep thinker, so yeah - Sullivan is going to roll out the bigotry.
Crack:
This is just my opinion mind you but you strike me as a lying bigoted d****e. Sorry I had to discard that Mormon mask for a minute, but you piss me off. There is probably a small grain of truth in each of the incidents you relate but I would be willing to bet that you have twisted them to make your point so you can bash Mormons "from personal experience" That's all right we all recognize anti-Mormon bigotry when we see it just be honest about it.
All the Mormons I've had the pleasure of coming in contact with have been first-class people. As a group, my impression are that they are great Americans with good family values that many of us would be well-advised to emulate.
As a Jew, I've been very grateful for help I've received from my local LDS congregation in obtaining and viewing microfilmed documents with my family's history from Germany and Poland.
Not once in all that time was I ever treated with anything but kindness and respect.
I see Beldar already hinted at this, but if you really want to hit Andrew S where he lives, ask him to consider the possibility of a 'gay mask.' You know...I hear that when gay men appear in public they pretend to be normal people in committed exclusive relationships, but put them together with others of their kind and they have random, anonymous sex with hundreds of strangers in bathhouses, or lurk outside grade schools and try to molest little boys. I have no idea whether these rumors are true, but anyone have any evidence one way or the other?
Put it this way, and even someone as dense and bigoted as Andrew Sullivan should be able to see that he's trafficking in vile prejudice.
What a bunch of nonsense. It's very revealing when people get so worked up over minutiae.
In truth no president's religion has ever made it to state status and there's no reason to believe this is any different. I'd be a lot more worried that Obama's social justice religion will make it to state status than Mitt's "flaky niceness."
But, by all means get worked up over details like what some Mormon bishop was alleged to have done to someone's child (he talked to her repeatedly ) than get to the real problems we face if Obama is reelected for four more years.
Chad,
Crack: This is just my opinion mind you but you strike me as a lying bigoted d****e. Sorry I had to discard that Mormon mask for a minute, but you piss me off.
That's what I said happens to the Mormon "nice" when you don't succumb to it. Look, I have no use for religion or cults, so take your "beliefs" and shove 'em. People can live without 'em, and all the problems they cause, but thinking about anyone but your "in" group also isn't a high priority for you assholes, so I won't hold my breath.
There is probably a small grain of truth in each of the incidents you relate but I would be willing to bet that you have twisted them to make your point so you can bash Mormons "from personal experience"
Well, at least you admit I tell the truth. But how "small grain" are the laws of Utah? Did I twist them into being? Are the comments non-Mormons make to me (without knowing I'm an atheist or a cult researcher) "small grain"? The way they ask, "Are you a Mormon?" before speaking freely? That video I posted above, of a Christian challenging two Mormon missionaries was being watched by a non-Mormon I know in Utah, and she was gleeful the Christian was sticking it to the Mormon - and proving the Mormons get confused and angry when it's proven A) they don't know the very fucking doctrine they're trying to spread, and B) other people understand religion better than they do and they're mere parrots for nonsense. I didn't twist that, I observed it.
Get pissed off all you want, it's all you've got.
That's all right we all recognize anti-Mormon bigotry when we see it just be honest about it.
Not recognizing I was a human being until 1978 is bigotry, asshole. What were you wonderful people doing before that? Making black folks' lives HELL.
Creating hell on Earth is all you people are good for. Well, it looks like you're going to get your apocalyptic moment by schmoozing the rubes. Enjoy.
"I'm amused at the idea that "acting nice and happy when you really aren't" is some insidious Mormon religious technique."
Don't be - it's called "love bombing," it's insincere, and it's used by almost every cult on the planet.
And car salesmen, and stock brokers, and the clerk at Penny's, and the waiter and waitress at Applebees.....
Geez.
A Mormon congregation, and Mormon religious identity, probably play greater roles in an active Mormon's life than congregation and religious identity play in the life of an average American megachurch member.
The argument, above, is that this translates into "cult." But by that logic, the Pilgrims, the Catholic Irish, Scandinavian Lutherans on the plains, and other groups whose cultural life centered around church, were also cultists. Not so long ago, church and religious identity played a much more central role in the lives of many Americans. The intensity of Mormon religious life would not seem all that foreign.
I have a good friend, the most thoughtful house-church Protetant you'll ever meet. His take on Mormonism is that it basically dipped 18th-century New England Puritan culture in amber, and preserved it into the modern age. Comparing a frontier New Hampshire village with its counterpart in a small Utah town today, I'm inclined to agree.
Basically, the thinking seems to be that unless your church is kept at arm's length, and nobody cares if you come or go, it's a cult. That mentality would be utterly foreign to many of our forebears.
Yes, only Mormons put on a happy face.
Other adults properly force everyone, even total strangers, to deal with their emotional whims.
At least that's how it works in Less Competent World where time is filled dealing with petty dramas.
All the Mormons I've had the pleasure of coming in contact with have been first-class people. As a group, my impression are that they are great Americans with good family values that many of us would be well-advised to emulate.
Same.
So I can look at the other comments. Damn you Blogger
Stop responding to/noticing/reading Sullivan.
Just stop. Please.
You're only enabling - the man needs help, not encouragement.
I saw that Crack made a claim of child abuse for Utah (btw, never have heard the statement "What happens in Utah stays in Utah").
Here's some compiled stats for child abuse fatalities at NPR. Utah has the same rate as Minnesota.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123891714
This report shows a lower rate of referrals than most states.
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm09/cm09.pdf#page=9
Now, these are (of course) reported crimes, and there is a level of unreported crimes that we do not know about. I cannot say anything about that.
docweasel, I've spent a lot of time around Mormons and I've never seen or heard anything resembling what you describe. They strike me, on the whole, as very fine people.
We do.
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