I value all comments made in good faith. Try to understand this concept. It's not about your point of view or your mode of expression. We love disputes and diversity. But I won't allow bad faith commenters to leverage their destructiveness on my commitment to free speech.Following this new policy and with Meade helping me, we've been deleting commenters we believe are writing in the comments with the purpose of wrecking the forum and driving away the people who enjoy the comments section as a place of free expression.
It's hard to draw this line, and it's possible that we're seeing some commenters the wrong way. The message at the comments window also says "If your comments are deleted and you don't understand why, write to Meade, who is helping me with this," but Meade tells me no one has yet emailed him, so I tend to think we've identified the "bad faithers." Meade says "There are about a dozen. Call them 'The Dirty Dozen.'"
Now, we can also err the other way. There might be a commenter who impresses us with a clever form of expression, even as he hurls insults. My orientation toward free speech has made me very tolerant of people like that, even when they attack me and the commenters here. I've gone very far defending edgy and harsh expression. That's part of why my new policy is about the good faith/bad faith distinction. That distinction depends on the writer's purpose, and purpose can be hard to discern, especially in clever writers.
In this context, there was a commenter who offended a lot of people, but he crafted his comments quite creatively. We delete him now as one of the bad faithers, but there are some ex-commenters who — elsewhere on the internet — excoriate me for leaving his comments up as long as I did. I'm not going to link to these folks whose idea of a good time is attacking me. I'm just going to invite them — and anybody else who's been following this dispute — to click "more" and see a comment that should take them aback.
This is a comment from Trooper York, written at 4:32 p.m. on September 5, 2011 (spelling and punctuations left as is):
Actually J is an acquried taste with a strong opinion and a unique way of presenting it. He has a point of view and is trying to find a way to express in his jazzy improv style. I know that the personal attacks can be annoying but who am I to critize that since I love personal attacks my ownself.If you haven't been following this dispute but clicked "more" anyway, Trooper runs a blog devoted largely to insulting me, and his primary complaint seems to be my failure to delete J in the past. I normally ignore him, but I found his hypocrisy so amusing and interesting that I had to memorialize it. The trouble with a policy of silence is that you shoot it all to hell if you speak even once, but... whatever... I'll return to my policy of silence. If followers of this now-old dispute need something to chew on, chew on the question whether J was Trooper's sockpuppet, and Trooper was flattering himself.
I like to hear someone who thinks so much differently than me. You need both sugar and mustard. You shouldn't get caught up in his name calling. It's just a motif like garage's idoicy and Cedarffords anti-semitism.
He brings a lot to the blog in my humble opinion. Another voice that we should here. Just sayn'
357 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 357 of 357Tyrone, yes.
Jermey's schtick was to tell you stop watching Rush/Hannity/... and "to read" something.
The post where he had comment after comment where he "bucked" like a chicken was a personal "favorite" of mine.
"I think I remember Lee Marvin and Charles Bronson, but after that, it gets a little hazy."
Who was the guy who played Posey?
@DBQ
For some reason we had a 2-lb. bottle of liquid mercury out in the garage when I was a kid, and only a vague notion that it might be poisonous. It sure was a lot of fun-- it looked just like Terminator 2. I'm pretty sure in its metallic form it is not extremely toxic, only when it forms soluble ionic solids.
"new policy :
whatever Meade the okie-doke says, goes."
Hey, Meade! Let me buy you a beer, sometime.
Posey = Clint Walker = Cheyenne Bodie
carry on
Lem, I've always appreciated your meta.
Hi Paddy O.. btw your avatar does not do you justice.
When I blew it up in your Profile page I saw how much younger you really are.
(I realise how gay that sounds but I'm taking advantage that titus doesn't deem to be around)
The Dirty Dozen:
Franko, V. R. / John Cassavetes
Vladek, M. / Tom Busby
Jefferson, R. T. / Jim Brown
Pinkley, V. L. / Donald Sutherland
Gilpin, S. / Ben Carruthers
Posey, S. / Clint Walker
Wladislaw, T. / Charles Bronson
Sawyer, S. K. / Colin Maitland
Lever, R. / Stuart Cooper
Bravos, T. R. / Al Mancini
Jiminez, P. / Trini López
Maggott, A. J. / Telly Savalas
Well, I walked right into *that* one!
I am a little trepidatious now. One because I appear to be writing comment no. 210 and who the hell will read this? And two because there are certain casual topics like new diet information that I can on occasion feel pretty passionate about, like last year when I wanted to discuss Taubes, and I did. I got into it with a number of other commenters. I enjoyed the whole experience of it. Would that be considered hijacking the thread (and if so, is that bad)? It was not really my intention.
And, it certainly did not seem like bad faith to me. I think if anything my sin is to wonder off topic, even slightly, and to really really wanna talk about what I wanna talk about. Is that hijacking?
If I could vote on this policy described in the blog entry, I would vote no.
I just found out George Sand wasn't even a dude. False advertising! She ineptly plagiarized her name from a guy named George, and some sand.
But rest well, internet citizens! I've forwarded this information to Top Men. TOP. MEN. I'm sure they'll put a stop to this perfidy.
But rest well, internet citizens! I've forwarded this information to Top Men. TOP. MEN.
Blogging competence can rightly be judged by whether or not someone includes the obligatory period AFTER BOTH "top" and "men". Well done.
Ahh, Clint Walker. He was also in that movie where Elke Sommer and Zero Mostel try and rob a bank and Larry Storch goes running around exclaiming "Et ez balooooon". Walker was the guy who got high on peyote.
Is this what Althouse meant about threads going off course?
" Would that be considered hijacking the thread (and if so, is that bad)?"
Hijacking a thread could be a tactic used by a bad faither, but it's also something other people might do. To be detected as a bad faither would require more. It's a number of data points that taken together cause us to start presuming this person is here to destroy the forum. Changing the subject, doing a digression, etc. is something that someone who loves this place might also do.
Top. Men. is a favorite line in my lab.
I support you 100% on your decision. You put up with more than most.
The Great Bank Robbery. And it was Kim Novak, not Elke Sommer.
Thanks, Don.
The George Sand allusion was a suck-up to those on this blog who love Indiana.
The hadron collider is a jealous mistress. My work on its design does not allow me to pay full attention to the comments section. But some observations based on incomplete research. J. is a kind of anarchist who measures his worth more by the debris he leaves behind than the edifice he creates. If his negative presence has inspired this whole long thread, he has succeeded far beyond his wildest dreams. I don't understand the details of this, but he is apparently even indirectly responsible for the exile of several favorite commenters. Your attempts to punish J. have in a perverse way rewarded him. It is very difficult to punish a masochist in a properly calibrated way. My guess is that indifference is better than deletion.
Can't Find My Way Home
Indifferent deletion of anarchists works as well.
"The damage is done, and--to again place a bet when normally I don't--is likely irrevocable."
This kind of drama doesn't help.
I thought J was a tool but I consider Trooper a fine internet friend. Sorry to see him go.
Trey
Oh, good grief. I fail to see how a comment deleting policy as outlined is in any way evidence of "damage," irrevocable or otherwise. It's certainly evidence of a distracting annoyance that Althouse and Meade have to deal with to maintain the atmosphere they're striving for, which is unfortunate.
Every time a "bad faith" comment is deleted, an angel gets it wings.
The hadron collider is a jealous mistress.
I first read that as "hardon collider." Dyslexia ia fun.
Changing the subject, doing a digression, etc. is something that someone who loves this place might also do.
What Am I going to have to do to get thrown off this blog ;)
Trooper is gone?
I want to launch a mild protest!
I suspect I didn't express myself clearly enough, given how that comment was perceived. However, I note the point, will respect it and will purge the comment on my own, drama not being its intent.
I thought J was a tool but I consider Trooper a fine internet friend. Sorry to see him go.
Every character J typed was a waste of pixels. Trooper actually entertained on occasion.
"No, there is federal law protecting me from defamation lawsuits based on what other people write here."
Well, OK. Obviously, you think you are right. What you wrote is simply the common understanding of the law. But, undertaking to edit makes a difference. I know the law is somewat more complicated than you suggest, but you probably know that too, don't you?
Titus better not be a dirty dozen..
wait..
A thought occurs to me. Is this a call for civility a la blog?
DADvocate said...
"I thought J was a tool but I consider Trooper a fine internet friend. Sorry to see him go.
Every character J typed was a waste of pixels. Trooper actually entertained on occasion."
+1.
I've also noticed that comments sometimes go off the track of the post's original subject. Sometimes, however, that's a feature, not a bug, as commenters can come up with all sorts of interesting things to say. That doesn't apply, however to flame wars, bad faith attempts to drive off of a subject, etc.
If followers of this now-old dispute need something to chew on, chew on the question whether J was Trooper's sockpuppet, and Trooper was flattering himself.
Ewwww. He was pleasuring himself with a sock?
Trooper actually entertained on occasion.
Dito.. Now I'm going to have to go and visit.. like he got cancer or something.
He going to be like.. What are you doing here.. and I'm going to say.. I heard.. but I don't believe any of it.
Jeez, people, I was making a joke about "The Dirty Dozen." Thanks for harshing my mellow :-)
And yes, I did forget Jim Brown. I denounce myself as a racist.
Since we're wobbling on and off topic - I saw "Tintin" last night. Fun movie, but overlong. Also confusing to anyone who doesn't know the characters or the stories the screenplay is based on. But there are two setpieces (one a swashbuckling fight between a ship of the line and a pirate ship, the other a chase through an Arab city) worth the price of admission, if only to see how far capture-motion technology has come.
Next up, "The Artist." Lately I've had a fragile hold on my emotions, but I expect to weep like a baby after seeing that one.
"purge the comment on my own, drama not being its intent."
Sorry, if drama wasn't your intent, you wouldn't announce that you were 'purging' it. I call Drama Queen on that!
Now that we are on the subject.. I always considered the guy with the green eye avatar a bad father.
limbo?.. ritmo?
Ritmo
bad faither
bad faither,
I would prefer to see y'all not bicker and fight about 'oo killed 'oo. After all, you've both held both positions and are in agreement about the pest regardless of why and when you both got there.
"A thought occurs to me. Is this a call for civility a la blog?"
You mean that comment? Tap tap It's still there. You're just being paranoid.
Oh, roll my eyes. With some people, you just can't win.
LOL.
Gotta go sign for a package with my eyes shut (because apparently the outside will give away a Christmas present to me), my son tells me. After that, more decorating and about 12 dozen cookies and six batches of spiced pecans to make and bake this afternoon/evening. More of the same tomorrow. Now, THAT'S drama I can sink my teeth into.
Merry Christmas, all!
I was very forgiving for a long, long time, but Meade and I have been reading and analyzing this more than you have -- unless you've been over-the-top obsessed with this blog for years -- and we arrived at the decision that he is one of the bad faithers. Sorry to say that.
@Ann as said by others, your blog, your rules. But as a practical matter with all of the things you and Meade can do in your spare time, why this? Surely this has to come behind picking up your pet's droppings on the desired things to-do list.
That said just for curiosity who is on the list? As for J, he/she can be occasional lucid when he/she chooses to do so. he/she just loves to insult just to get a rise although they could do so without the gratuitous anti-Semetic and homophobic throwaway lines. Cedarford however does appear to be more of a genuine anti-semite.
What a lot of angst and petulance.
"Too junior-high": agreed.
The blog is private property, the commenters are guests, the owners make the rules; they don't have to explain or justify them.
This is a blog...(repeat as needed until you calm down).
Going on and on...taking it to another blog (!...!!...!!!) is a sign of being obsessed or something similar. Get therapy, get out more, get a coke and and a sandwich, get over it.
Meade: the confessional is my turf; you work your side of the street, I'll work mine...
"Is this a call for civility a la blog?"
No. The good faith/bad faith distinction is "not about your point of view or your mode of expression."
You mean that comment? Tap tap It's still there. You're just being paranoid.
Damn you are fast on the draw. I did mean that comment, I was right on the thread getting clogged though. I think my comment was deleted within 10 seconds and you still read and replied! Are you spamming refresh? :)
Fastest <F5> in the West, baby.
No. The good faith/bad faith distinction is "not about your point of view or your mode of expression."
On its face, the call for civility isn't about point of view.
I'd say both are about mode of expression though.
But, I was just hoping for a chuckle. My thoughts on this are on the first page anyway. (tl'dr version: Good idea, good luck keeping with it)
Now that we have this new policy maybe we can entice Theo to come back.
I believe it was the quarrelsome commenters that drove him off.
I'm not sure.
Fastest in the West, baby.
Well-played. That would make a great signature line.
Trooper is J?
"Meade: the confessional is my turf; you work your side of the street, I'll work mine..."
I think a secular confessional... in the street... is a cool idea. Just think of the rituals we could prescribe to expiate the sins in a secular way.
I think a secular confessional... in the street... is a cool idea. Just think of the rituals we could prescribe to expiate the sins in a secular way.
What would we do with all the bars though?
..is "not about your point of view or your mode of expression."
That's what Chavez says to jailed journalists.
Just kidding professor.
Sidewalks are too hard to kneel on.
Ann Althouse said...
"[Fr. Martin said 'the confessional is my turf; you work your side of the street, I'll work mine...'] I think a secular confessional... in the street... is a cool idea. Just think of the rituals we could prescribe to expiate the sins in a secular way."
Perhaps we should set up civilian courts... in the streets... to which criminals could go and be given light sentences in a civilian way, thereby expiating their crimes and precluding other... forms of enforcement.
"I would prefer to see y'all not bicker and fight about 'oo killed 'oo."
It took me awhile to remember where that was from.
A troll means to disrail the thread. Sincerity is consistently lacking. Productive content is consistently lacking. It is just noise that sucks up bandwidth. Some people get off on that thinking about their threads after they turn their computer off.
Why would anyone looking to better themselves on the internet want to read troll noise.
I often felt Titus was purposely NSFWing the blog to adjust its description in websense. Enough bad and my work them shuts off the blog and websense adds it into its default filters.
Shame, shame, OM. It should have been instantaneous. Turn in your geek card.
Beard of the Prophet! Over 250 comments on Althouse commenting! Congratulations Professor, you've entered Palinesque numbers!
"I would prefer to see y'all not bicker and fight about 'oo killed 'oo."
It took me awhile to remember where that was from
I don't believe that there is any situation where you can't find a Monty Python clip to be appropriate.
"I don't believe that there is any situation where you can't find a Monty Python clip to be appropriate."
At actual funerals, eyebrows are raised.
Or so i'm told.
Still, 'wicca trash' will always make me smile.
I don't believe that there is any situation where you can't find a Monty Python clip to be appropriate.
Nerd.
At actual funerals, eyebrows are raised.
Saying "I'm sorry" and "I apologize" are usually the same thing, except at a funeral.
What a lovely discussion to be having, and how lovely we can have it. As long as it's Meadhouse (and no one else) censoring the comments, I'm as pleased as punch.
But if we're rope-a-dopa'd into SOPA, I'm afraid the faith of the writer soon won't matter.
The road to hell is paved intentionally.
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/sopa-an-architecture-for-censorship/
http://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2011/12/21/when-the-police-knock-on-your-door/
Note the dozens of sock-puppets saying essentially the same thing--aka Byro, the Sac tweek dealer, wicca queer, tee-shirt king
...said one of the newest sockpuppets. It boggles the mind. Truly. The mind is boggled.
What would we do with all the bars though?
You mean "brick-and-mortar" bars, right? I'm pretty sure Amazon's already got a plan to cover it.
"Amazon Primed."
"I don't believe that there is any situation where you can't find a Monty Python clip to be appropriate."
At actual funerals, eyebrows are raised.
Or so i'm told
Well maybe not at the actual funeral, but afterwards when everyone is properly drunk....something from the Parrot sketch may be appropriate......'He's just resting!!'
Went to TY's blog and came across the "Althouse is like Nixon" post. Beyond weird. And mean-spirited.
There are a good number of folks who hold the Althouse blog to a *very* high standard... yet apparently find this sort of behind-the-back ranting-- from a purported tough guy, no less--acceptable.
I don't get it.
I have never understood why that blog changed from a fun place to discuss went on here, in the undercurrents... to such obvious resentment, jealousy, and nastiness.
Randy, god love him, wherever he is, called "bullshit" on all of the stuff over there a long time ago. Was he ever right.
'E's not pinin'!
God, I love that sketch.
I used to rattle off Cleese's spiel all the time.
For the ladies.
@Knox:
Randy's very ill (terminally). I think Althouse posted about that once? I know that he and/or Amba have posted about it over at Ambiance.
I'm planning on calling him later today, while cookies are baking. Want I should say hi for you?
"Shame, shame, OM. It should have been instantaneous. Turn in your geek card."
There should be special dispensation for geezer geeks. I've always loved that line, but when it came time to retrieve it, my neural activity played hide and seek with my get function.
Randy's very ill (terminally). I think Althouse posted about that once? I know that he and/or Amba have posted about it over at Ambiance.
I'm planning on calling him later today, while cookies are baking. Want I should say hi for you?
WHAT?!
...off to email him...
Reader,
Goddammit. I'm always afraid I'm going to hear something like that. I just emailed him about 20 minutes ago, to let him know I dragged him, though indirectly, into the fray.
Yes, please tell him hi, and that I love him as much as I can someone I only know on the internet.
Goddammit. "Internet Ronin," one of my all-time favorites.
I hope the policy, which in the age of Obama's hate of real free speech, does not detract from a full and open commentary. It is harder when one worries if we might annoy the owner. Something I expect to do with continued regularity.
I call BS. Make your comments in good faith and try to make a decent point. It's as simple as that and you don't need to "worry" about appeasing the professor. If you can't figure it out then you should not be posting here as part of the community anyway.
I say this holding the distinction (I believe) of being the only commenter the professor has ever said "Fuck you" to in the comments of this blog. (You can probably find that with Google, should you want to know the context - AND THE CONTEXT MATTERS!) Really, it's just not that hard, folks.
Earlier this year Ann bragged that she never deletes posts. I guess consistency is not her strong suite.
Alternately, things change over time. Consistency, meet your hobgoblin....
"Went to TY's blog and came across the "Althouse is like Nixon" post. Beyond weird. And mean-spirited. There are a good number of folks who hold the Althouse blog to a *very* high standard... yet apparently find this sort of behind-the-back ranting-- from a purported tough guy, no less--acceptable. I don't get it. I have never understood why that blog changed from a fun place to discuss went on here, in the undercurrents... to such obvious resentment, jealousy, and nastiness."
Thanks, Knox. There are tons of posts like that over there. It's very creepy and stalker-y. And yet Trooper has a store that sells clothing to women, a store that he frequently names and promotes on his blog. And he has a wife who presumably reads his blog... a wife who has met me and must care about the reputation of her store and the way women view it. And how can a woman accept her husband obsessing about another woman (even in a negative way)... and doing it conspicuously on the web, where her customers can see it? (I'm deliberately refraining from naming the store to spare her the distress of this post coming up in a search of the store's name.)
"I say this holding the distinction (I believe) of being the only commenter the professor has ever said "Fuck you" to in the comments of this blog."
Thanks, Icepick. I didn't remember that, but I do remember your name and am glad to see you.
I remember Internet Ronin aka Randy too. He was a good commenter & astute observer here- it's too bad to hear he is so sick.
And Reader - did not know that was you- Merry Christmas to you.
Well maybe not at the actual funeral, but afterwards when everyone is properly drunk....something from the Parrot sketch may be appropriate......'He's just resting!!'
DBQ - my wife, who has a wonderful sense of humor has made me promise, promise, that if she precedes me in death, there will be a small speech balloon above her in the coffin at the wake that reads: "I'm not dead yet. I feel happy...."
And Reader - did not know that was you- Merry Christmas to you.
Ha. Same. No wonder I kept thinking, "Gosh, I like that new commenter..."
Icepick said...
"I say this holding the distinction (I believe) of being the only commenter the professor has ever said "Fuck you" to in the comments of this blog."
Not the only, Pick. I remember, a few years ago, Kirby Olsen complained that he felt the blog seemed to be beginning to lose its edge. Seems the professor had fallen for some guy and kept putting up posts about flowers and sunsets and puppies and crap like that. Althouse came into the comments and replied, "Fuck you, Kirby."
Of course, Kirby being Kirby, he got the joke immediately. As most but not all do. It may be an acquired taste but, once acquired, as many of us know, Althouse humor is not easily put down.
Reader!!1!
Hoorah!
Hey,'Pick! And have a fuckin' Happy Holiday, will ya?
(Will call after Christmas. Kisses to the wife and daughter.)
Althouse,
I am no doubt going to be accused of being an ass-kisser for all this, but that's the way I see it, and have for a long time.
There is hardly any character more forgiving or mild-mannered than your better half, and I find the vitriol directed at him to be especially perplexing. And Freudian. (And, as an onlooker, amusing at times... though I don't blame you guys for not finding it funny.)
I definitely remember that! I thought her comment should be deleted! Whoever that guy was that she fell in love with had altered all the standards. I think when people fall in love everything looks so good to them: ants, trees, a police car going past with lights twirling, flowers...
I'd better shut up or I'll get another f.y.
Thanks for this memory. I did remember it clear as a bell. I'm glad you guys are still in love, AND that the blog is continuing. All this talk of standards has made me want to order something from Amazon just to show my appreciation. I'm telling you: I really had to do a lot of soul-searhing vis a vis J. He wants us to drop our commitment to freedom of speech. It's one of his jokes. Once he gets it established that there ARE borders, and boundaries, he begins to behave better, but it might take years. His other jokes have to do with tsunamis and how God makes them, and then he starts to talk about the nature of such a God. Turn Christian and you will get that one.
Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives.
Apologies to soap operas ...
Althouse has lasted a lot longer than most prominent blogs in having a hands-off comment policy. And even this is hardly hands-on, more like a pinky finger.
Good job!
Yes, Kirby got an FU once and so did Freder I think.
I feel cheated somehow.
Merry Christmas, Knox, Pogo, AJ and Freeman--and everyone else, too.
Thanks, Icepick. I didn't remember that, but I do remember your name and am glad to see you.
Like I said, context matters! I'm pretty sure you'd laugh if you saw it, I did when you wrote it - it was all a bit of fluff and all a bit of fun. (Maybe I'll look it up latter.)
What's up with the archives? I decided to try and figure out when I started commenting here (I'm pretty sure it was in 2004), but all the old comment sections have been scrubbed clean. Very strange.
"I have never understood why that blog changed from a fun place to discuss went on here, in the undercurrents... to such obvious resentment, jealousy, and nastiness"
That's what confused me too. Hereabouts as well. I always thought malicious commenters were a problem, but I didn't get the big blow-up about deletions or freedom of speech or whatever it was about. Became very weirdly personal for so many people. Though more ego oriented, I suspect. It's hard for some people to be told they aren't in charge. As there actually are people in charge, it seems that role is filled.
I've had comments disappear too, but I've generally figured it was me missing one of the randomized steps Google makes me walk through.
Fortunately, with these changes I think there's a chance to gather in a new batch of quality commenters. We can rebuild it. We have the technology. We can make it better than it was. Better... stronger... faster.
Not the only, Pick.
DAMN! I was hoping there could be only one!
Still, I'm pretty sure I was the very first commenter (aqws opposed to other actual luminaries) to make it onto the masthead, albeit briefly. Ah, back when blogging was still the "it" thing on the internet....
Lem, I changed my picture to highlight my youthfulness.
(totally not gay, NTTAWWT)
Hey,'Pick! And have a fuckin' Happy Holiday, will ya?
I'm going to fuckin' try! Wait, I may have that backwards.
(Will call after Christmas. Kisses to the wife and daughter.)
Looking forward to it. You're on my list, as well as a friend in Maryland, a mutual friend in NYC, and an old family friend in San Diego. I got the four hour call to my cousin in VA done today. (No, that is not an exaggeration. I had to switch out hand-sets a couple of times!)
WV: wookeis! It must be Christmas!
Kirby Olson said...
"All this talk of standards has made me want to order something from Amazon just to show my appreciation."
SCORE!!!
We can rebuild it. We have the technology. We can make it better than it was. Better... stronger... faster.
If you can do it for six million dollars, you're a genius and we're going to mmake you run the country.
(Does that last bit count as a terroristic threat? And is it okay if it is, so long as I'm sincere?)
PS I'm torn between linking to "Bye, Bye, Birdie" or "Into the Woods" for an appropriate American musical theatre reference to the importance, or lack thereof, of sincerity.
"What's up with the archives? I decided to try and figure out when I started commenting here (I'm pretty sure it was in 2004), but all the old comment sections have been scrubbed clean. Very strange."
I didn't have comments activated for the first part of 2004, but comments are open now, so they just look empty. There was a short period in there somewhere where I tried comments, but then I turned them off, thinking comments were a big mistake. I couldn't take the comments that told me I shouldn't blog about whatever I was blogging about because I needed to blog about whatever was actually the most important thing going on in the world (to wit, the war in Iraq). It's weird to me now that I let that eat at me, but I was still vulnerable then to what I now see as another manifestation of the old liberal game of making you feel bad about not being a good enough person. Getting over that was a key step for me. Later in the year, 2004, I turned the comments on after reading something Judge Posner wrote about blog comments. I've had them on ever since.
Pogo said...
"I feel cheated somehow."
I think she's busy at the moment so I hope second best is good enough.
Fuck you, Pogo. Fuck you very much, my friend. And happy happy new year!
Happy Christmas, old man, and blessings.
We'll meet some day, I hope. If not, we've met here, and I got the better of the deal.
Thanks, prof, that explains that. What's weird are the few posts that have the random comment, often added five years after the fact. The old timers should go back and comment the HELL out of those old posts! If only we could get bill and RIA and Pooh and Mark Daniels and Pastor Jeff.... I've spent WAY too much time on the internet....
There is this to be said about J. His inchoate rantings were a neon sign that free speech was alive and encouraged......I worked for a company that was merged with a much larger firm. After the merger, the deadwood and lamebrains were eliminated. In a perverse way, their elimination resulted in less productivity. A family that looks after its wounded and halfwits is likely to be more cohesive and happier than one that sets the deficient out on a ice floe. During the time of the merger and purgings, everyone was on edge, irritable and thinking of passive-aggressive ways to get back at the higher ups. It was a miserable experience, and more was lost than gained in the merger.
"...but I was still vulnerable then to what I now see as another manifestation of the old liberal game of making you feel bad about not being a good enough person."
The education of Althouse.
Maybe that's why they hate you.
It's like a big reunion! I wonder if all the other old trolls and stalkers will come back for this thread, too.
"J" is fly somtiims, makks me think, othrtims he gozz postall, its eezii to c d diff All I wan do is makk a point n bail, I wont respondd to jerkkks who r basiclly sayin "hey, u wanna fiitt?"
Good lukk Now dat yr moderattn, uu pwnnn d commts, n peeps got sumtim to slag uu aboot.
Gardens n weeds: When uu pull weeds, uu r a winnowin agent of evolutiio D weeds uu miss or refuzz to pull will takk over: "You can't win, [ProffAA]. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." Uu must co-opt weeds into yr diivers ecology, toleraat em livin @ d edgess
ps. There's an awful lot of trollery going on here....
* blinks *
Wow.
"Anything that even slightly contradicts anything Althouse, or Palladian, or Sippican Cottage or Maxine Weiss says is mutilated to a bloody pulp."
Sippican Cottage is a name I haven't heard in a while. I used to enjoy his comments.
Cubanbob - "Cedarford however does appear to be more of a genuine anti-semite"
Ahh, Cubanbob - the claim by right wing Jews like yourself that Jews alone are so special they or Israel must never be criticized - hasn't flown in the rest of the world. And after 70 years, the WWII guilt trip laid on America for not doing more, therefore shut up and do as Jews say to do - is wearing a little thin.
Learn to understand that there is less and less an acceptance in America or anywhere else for a free pass for Jews and Israel doing as they please without others having the right to question what they are doing on the West Bank, in Hollywood, in high finance.. No immunity amulet exempting you from criticism at times.
Same with the Chinese, despite claims by the Chinese government and certain militant Chinese business consortiums that merely criticizing China is a form of anti-Sino bigotry and racism.
Ditto with "Islamophobia"
Ditto with liberals and black activists claims that any public criticism of black societal dysfunctions should be "prohibited" as racist and made "illegal hate speech".
It seemed to me you would comment on Trooper; I occasionally bumped to his blog from your sidebar. Maybe he was a teacher's pet. When I was a young psych. resident I had an even younger patient whom I would ask a question of, his feeling toward something relevant, to which he would declare, 'He didn't care one way or another.' This created an impression in me like a Bob Dylan lyric that there was an orbit of meaning and his orbit might have been larger than mine or he couldn't get affect to target, so to speak, and it seemed like Trooper was kind of misfiring to target. The right target for you and Trooper was kind of no never mind to me.
Oo yahh, how do trollzz jackk thredds? By peeps thinkin they gotta respondd 2 em Sayy yr point n get off d staag, tryinn to repeet yrself cuzz a troll duznnt agree w ur brilliia point said brillio, is a wasst of tiim Lett d trollz eke out an existio @ d edge of d garden
The morr uu yakk, d morr trollzz got 2 flingg back atcha
Da peeps uu caar aboot, will incorpor ur memes. Dat shood b enuff.
OT, but in Good Faith:
HW Bush endorses Romney.
Bush said he supported Romney because of his “stability, experience, principles. He’s a fine person,” he said. “I just think he’s mature and reasonable – not a bomb-thrower.”
Bush denied that the latter label implied that the candidate field includes any bomb-throwers.
“I’ve got to be a little careful, because I like Perry; he’s our governor,” he said."
Later in his interview, HW Bush related a story of Newt backstabbing him in a fairly sleazy way..which did relate to the matter of his endorsement:
the former president said he knew Gingrich relatively well. “I’m not his biggest advocate,” he said.
“I had a conflict with him at one point,” Bush recalled, alluding to the crucial moment in 1990 when a recession drove him to renege on his “no new taxes” pledge. He needed a bipartisan group of party leaders, including then-House Whip Gingrich, to stand with him.
“He was there, right outside the Oval Office. I met with all the Republican leaders, all the Democratic leaders,” Bush recalled. “The plan was, we were all going to walk out into the Rose Garden and announce this deal. Newt was right there. Got ready to go out in the Rose Garden, and I said, ‘Where’s Gingrich?’ Went up to Capitol Hill. He was here a minute ago. Went up there and started lobbying against the thing.
“He told me one time later on, he said, ‘This is the most difficult thing I ever had to do.’ I said, ‘I didn’t like it much myself, Newt.’”
Indeed. 20+ years later, a stunt like that is still pretty raw, and reflects on Newt's character.
"Lem, I changed my picture to highlight my youthfulness."
Very cute! I really did picture a less youthful guy.
Fortunately, with these changes I think there's a chance to gather in a new batch of quality commenters. We can rebuild it. We have the technology. We can make it better than it was. Better... stronger... faster.
PaddyO, LOL. Here's hopin'.
Reader, same to you. Thanks for the offer to speak to R. for me.
So, basically, Ann and Meade have decided to only allow those with whom they and their regular commenters agree. Undoubtably the result of complaints and whining from the likes of the faithful.
And throwing out the "Dirty Dozen" tripe or that a few are "ruining" it all for all of the really "good" people is just that....tripe.
Over the course of the past year or so the site has become more and more of a right wing massage therapy session than a real discussion forum, with the usual regualrs immediately pouncing on anybody who disagrees with the platform Ann introduces with her own brand of subjectivity.
Actual and real discussion and debate have not been in effect for quite some time.
J was funny the first (very) few times you read his comments but the never ending insults get old fast. Personally the guy did not seem that smart to me but was just talented at insulting people. He frequently knew nothing about the topic on which he was commenting (for example, J knows next to nothing about climate, yet he still pretended like he does).
My interpretation of J's commenting is that by insulting, he can hijack threads without having to know anything about the topic being discussed. It would be quite easy to write a program that would simulate J's comments because his comments are not context sensitive (with the exception of identifying who to target for his relentless abuse).
Any comment moderation policy that permits J's comments is pretty much no moderation at all.
OTOH, getting rid of Trooper is a big mistake. Having said that, Trooper is way, way better on his own blog than he was on Althouse.
"Maybe that's why they hate you."
Who's "they" as hate is a pretty strong word. If I were to hate anyone, Nixon would be right up there, but one has to put forth some effort to hate someone and Nixon wasn't worth wasting my time.
take care
As the Irish would say, because they don't like to take the name of the Lord in vain, "Oh for Fuck's sake!"
TY and EBL aren't trying to destroy this blog and aren't stalking or acting creepy. They are ridiculing you two. Some may find this completely misplaced and see this as ridiculing people who have acted perfectly reasonably, and thus not see the ridicule as funny or apt. Others, including me, see it as funny and well deserved. That doesn't mean I hate you, want to destroy you, want to stalk you, or want to destroy this blog. It's just different strokes for different folks.
But holy moly, the very act of not being able to see the difference between someone ridiculing you and someone creepily stalking you is itself quite worthy of ridicule. And the "does his wife know how he's treating poor little me" stuff is also worthy of ridicule.
As always, your blog, so your rules. I believe in private property. But that doesn't mean someone who thinks the new rules are stupid and you are acting weird and paranoid is somehow acting in bad faith for saying so.
"Very cute!"
Thanks!
But now I think Meade is going to start deleting me.
Only your photos, Paddy. Only your photos.
"So, basically, Ann and Meade have decided to only allow those with whom they and their regular commenters agree. "
Love, that is really far off the mark. Couldn't be more incorrect.
"But that doesn't mean someone who thinks the new rules are stupid and you are acting weird and paranoid is somehow acting in bad faith for saying so."
That is exactly right. And that is why I want to be emailed if anyone feels she has had a comment deleted for saying so. Bad faith is very different from disagreeing, insulting, criticizing, or just everyday run of the mill baffoonery. Otherwise, I'd deleting every other one of my own stupid comments!
So, basically, Ann and Meade have decided to only allow those with whom they and their regular commenters agree.
You either did not read this thread or you are being purposefully disingenuous.
Could be you're just an asshole
Ann Said: "I think a secular confessional... in the street... is a cool idea. Just think of the rituals we could prescribe to expiate the sins in a secular way."
I knew it, Meadehouse was trying to start a cut all along. I was so naive.
Father Martin call the Vatican. I'll call Joel Osteen. We must nip this in the bud.
Jeremy's back! It is just like a reunion!!
B – you have to understand that "Love" is deeply, deeply stupid.
B – you have to understand that "Love" is deeply, deeply stupid.
"The great thing about Kenny is that he's almost totally stupid."
rcommal, check your email.
Dose of Sanity,
What would we do with all the bars though?
Well, DUH:
We crawl from one to another until they all close.
Also?
BOOM!
Hey Love, in my experii, leftii sitess dont toleraat questionin the narrativ - theyr tryin 2 find ways 2 makk it as strong as possbl: so either help, or getlost
Iow, lefties and others cant debaat on lefty siitss
ProffAA is fightin O'Sullivans Law. I givv it 2 yrs max: the lefties noww hvv a means to ban non-lefties. ProffAA will either shut down d blog, or d policy. Cuz now ProffAA pwns d commts, sso her professio reputa izz gonna suffr.
Harsh Pencil said...
TY and EBL aren't trying to destroy this blog and aren't stalking or acting creepy. They are ridiculing you two. Some may find this completely misplaced and see this as ridiculing people who have acted perfectly reasonably, and thus not see the ridicule as funny or apt. Others, including me, see it as funny and well deserved. That doesn't mean I hate you, want to destroy you, want to stalk you, or want to destroy this blog. It's just different strokes for different folks.
But holy moly, the very act of not being able to see the difference between someone ridiculing you and someone creepily stalking you is itself quite worthy of ridicule. And the "does his wife know how he's treating poor little me" stuff is also worthy of ridicule.
Exactly. It's my experience that Ann and Meade don't see what they don't want to see, won't address what they don't want to address, and - like Glenn Reynolds - because they have a platform and sycophants, continue to think it's O.K. to address concerns from only their viewpoint - like Ann's feminist take on Trooper's behavior which, from here and without talking to him, sounds completely cockeyed. (A man who owns a women's clothing store can criticize a woman without it being weird - especially if that woman does stuff that pretty much invites criticism.) As Shouting Thomas would no doubt say, stop with the feminist shit and look at yourself.
It makes me wonder who the "Dirty Dozen" are, too, and why. I've only tasted Mary's venom once, and get that, but Trooper? And is ST on the list? Why? because he insisted, rightly, the feminist/gay crap can be bullshit? It can - as bullshit as listening to Al Sharpton on race - but are Ann and meade so beholden to it they'll punish others because it's they who are wearing blinders?
As I've said, I don't understand the comments policy anymore - free speech I do. It works like this:
I don't like J so I usually ignore his posts.
What was so wrong/difficult about that?
And is ST on the list? No.
Why? I just said he isn't on a list.
because he insisted, rightly, the feminist/gay crap can be bullshit? He did? I never even noticed.
It can - as bullshit as listening to Al Sharpton on race - but are Ann and meade so beholden to it they'll punish others because it's they who are wearing blinders? We are not beholden to it, we're not punishing anyone, and we aren't wearing blinders.
Also, there is no "Dirty Dozens List". There is no list at all because if we had lists of who is naughty and who is nice, Crack, old friend, in all honesty, I would not have even the slightest idea where to put you.
Now Merry Christmas, ya big old atheist. And also, happy freaking new year, dude.
Best of luck with the new policy. Over the years of reading blogs, it seems that most who have attempted enforcing a similar policy end up finding it tedious and time-consuming. Then again, neither of you are like "most people."
ASIDE TO KNOX: Thanks for the kind words. BTW, what I said then remains true for me today, I'm sorry to say. Thanks for the note - I promise to respond sooner than I usually do (IOW, within days, not weeks or months ;-)
ASIDE TO FREEMAN: I'll email with some details sometime soon.
Best wishes and Merry Christmas to both of you and your families.
While I'm at it, best wishes and Happy Holidays to our proprietorial team here, old friends still commenting here, and all the new (to me) commenters here as well.
Ann,
The one thing I like about Althouse is that is the most neutral Blog in the Blogosphere where the Right and Left can converse....
Unlike on the Left Blogs where they delete (see Steve Benan's Political Animal for multiple examples) contrary opinions.
Every time I tried to read "J", I couldn't find a simple english sentence using nouns then verbs and coming to a conclusion other then yelling "byro this," or "KKK that,"
Let's not talk about LOS/Jeremy, his hatred is Example 1 I use for the candidates I work with to show the True Heart of the Left.
And while we are on questionable commenters, has Alpha Liberal ever defended YOUR Free Speech rights?
Thanks for a great Blog, Althouse and Meade and have a great Christmas and New Year!
WV: Redja! Of course I did!
"Ahh, Cubanbob - the claim by right wing Jews like yourself that Jews alone are so special they or Israel must never be criticized - hasn't flown in the rest of the world."
God, you are so full of shit. So that's the reason you continually refer to Jew Lawyers. And New York Jews. And liberal Jews. But never to Christian Lawyers. New York Christians. Liberal Christians. Cause your keeping it real, just like the rest of the world. Fire up the ovens. But not because they are Jewish. Oh no. Because its constructive criticism.
Gardens n weeds: When uu pull weeds, uu r a winnowin agent of evolutiio D weeds uu miss or refuzz to pull will takk over: "You can't win, [ProffAA]. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." Uu must co-opt weeds into yr diivers ecology, toleraat em livin @ d edgess
Even if difficult to read..... this is very astute.
Hallelujah! I can give my scrolling arm a rest for once when I visit. Thank you, Thank you!
I leave you kids alone one day while I go trout fishing and look what happens.
I admit that I have been busy of late and not commented often,...
No problem. Believe me.
go trout fishing
I hope you had fun and caught your limit. Seriously.
Meade,
Is ST on the list? No.
Glad to hear it.
He insisted, rightly, the feminist/gay crap can be bullshit? He did? I never even noticed.
Funny. I'll give it to you: You ARE funny. We are not beholden to [feminism], we're not punishing anyone, and we aren't wearing blinders.
The first part of that sentence is hard to accept, but not the rest of it. Again: glad to hear it.
Also, there is no "Dirty Dozens List". There is no list at all because if we had lists of who is naughty and who is nice, Crack, old friend, in all honesty, I would not have even the slightest idea where to put you.
[Chest swells with pride - fist pump] YES!
Now Merry Christmas, ya big old atheist. And also, happy freaking new year, dude.
I sincerely wish you both the merriest of Christmas' and all the best for the coming 364 - "believe" it or not, I'm *always* in your corner.
Honored to know you, actually,...
I've been away and missed the kerfuffle so don't get all the huffing and puffing.
Althouse's house, her rules.
She gave us free run of the house and unfortunately a few chose to shit on the parlor floor. It seems a tad disingenuous to blame our host for asking them to leave and posting a sign asking others not to do the same.
Those with their panties in a bunch might want to exercise their free will and click away. Or get some Astronaut strength diapers if you can't control your urges.
As a wise man said up thread; Don't make no difference to me.
I always enjoy Ann's blog. I had just finished mentioning Ann to my girlfriend saying that Ann's head works pretty good after sending her a link to her Hitchens post. But her head failed her tonight. It's not the DMCA that protects her from some poster's libel. It's the ironically styled Communications Decency Act, 47 USC 230 that offers reasonable protection to the blogress.
It's not an impenetrable immunity. If she were a participant in creating the content, apart from her own posts, there might be liability. But the other poster was wrong. Merely weeding the garden doesn't create content for purposes of removing the shield. Under the CDA, she's not a publisher.
My girlfriend understood that. My wife, however, does not.
- Krumhorn
[Different J]
"J wasn't a complete troll. 5% of his comments were intelligent."
Apologies if any of those were mine.
I rarely read the comments, and even more rarely comment (maybe 20 total). I haven't commented much since realizing there was a different 'J' here who was a tool.
I'm too lazy to change my Google profile so I'll probably just stick to commenting rarely and using [Different J] at the top. I posted this as a preface to my next comment which I think is worth highlighting.
[Different J]
'This is where a rating system by "Registered" commenters could come in handy.'
I strongly recommend against this. They have this nonsense at BoingBoing and the group-think Leftists use it to ban people they disagree with. They banned me for pointing out that the Tea Parties formed out of opposition to TARP.
The neo-Fascists who run the place hide behind their group-think commenters and use them as a tool to ban speech they disagree with.
Cory Doctorow, David Pescovitz, and Xeni Jardin are cowards who did not even respond to me on why I was banned and if it's reasonable to allow their commenters to ban someone for speech they disagree with.
Don't outsource banning to some magical system...leave that crap to the Leftists.
I'm happy to see that A&M have instituted this new policy. The main reason I quit coming here was due to Jeremy, the words "bad faith" certainly applied to him (and one or two others)! I must say, however, I never thought Trooper exhibited bad faith, but maybe that changed over the last couple of years?
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!
"Maybe this is a useful parallel: If you're in a bar, and you're acting like a noisy, drunken jerk, the bouncer can toss you out onto the street. It's not a matter of free speech, it's a matter of carrying on like a jackass in somebody else's place."
That might have been true prior to 1965; now the drunk classifies himself into an Official Victim Group and sues the bar for discrimination. Race, gender, sexual orientation; heck, since the ADA classifies alcoholism as a disability, that would do. Even "private clubs" aren't immune; all it takes is that a place be open to a sufficiently large segment of "the public". I'm thoroughly surprised some troll hasn't sued a blog on that basis already.
5 random musings on a dead blog thread
by P. Wové
1. Dang. I hoped this thread would break 400 in my absence.
2. McArdle tried commenter registration. It worked, for a while; then the more dedicated cranks (I believe somebody mentioned 'tstev') popped up all over again. Still, you could argue it is better than it was before. I think her blog commentariat rivals, and sometimes exceeds, Althouse's in overall quality.
3. People need to remember that they are voluntarily putting their words on somebody else's web site. If it's really going to cause you heartburn if your mighty opus disappears, perhaps you should be writing on your own website.
4. Donn's comment above shows that trolling works. Despite exhortations to just ignore it already, bad commentary drives out good. As somebody else already said, a good commentariat is like a garden, and must be tended. That means periodic weeding.
5. Elaborate rulesets about what is and what is not allowed are a recipe for immense frustration. In a few things, it is ok to be binary and arbitrary - "I thought your comment sucked, and yanked it." Yes, bad arbitrators will abuse this. Bad arbitrators will abuse any set of rules, no matter how Talmudically elaborate and 'fair'. Good arbitrators won't. Rules do not make a good blog.
I hope you had fun and caught your limit. Seriously.
Had fun, caught way more than our limit, and froze our ass off. Caught about 30 brown trout in Milwaukee Harbor. One about 15lbs. Incredible fishery.
@Krumhorn Thanks for the correction.
Meade / 12/22/11 - 9:10 AM: "There are about a dozen. Call them 'The Dirty Dozen.'"
Meade / 12/22/11 - 8:58 PM: "Also, there is no 'Dirty Dozens List'.".
Reader/Rcommal, if you're still reading this, send me an email. I'd like to reconnect.
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