“You start to feel like, ‘What will they do next?’ ” said Bob McLinn, 63, a labor union president who left his job with the Wisconsin Department of Corrections in March, earlier than he planned, after political leaders pressed to cut benefits and collective bargaining rights for workers.What demagoguery! We have to contribute more to our pensions as we get each new month's pay, but there was no cut in the ultimate reward. Getting out early isn't a way to preserve the retirement benefit. It's just a decision not to continue putting a chunk of your pay into your pension as you go along working before retirement. If McLinn's communication is typical of labor union presidents, no wonder so many people freaked out and protested last winter.
“There’s always been this promise that if you came to work and did your job, at the end there would be your reward — a defined retirement. The idea was you could retire with respect and dignity. But that whole idea has been slashed now, and I felt like, ‘What is the point?’ ”
Now, are states better off if a lot of older workers leave their jobs?
“What we’re going to see is a lot of young people reinventing the wheel,” said Karen Gunderson, 56, who retired this year from her information technology job with the State of Wisconsin after 26 years, a few years sooner than she had intended, saying she felt that public workers were being “turned into scapegoats” for a troubled economy.
“We’re going to waste a lot of tax dollars with young people attempting things that were tried before. You can get people cheaper, but whether you save money, I don’t know.”I'm mostly curious why the NYT chose to feature this quote and the one above. This isn't serious analysis of what the state did and the real effect on workers. It's more of an effort to propagate hysteria. What did Gunderson — a woman who thinks she was scapegoated — do in "information technology" that younger workers — working at lower pay — would do more expensively? The secret wisdom of the elders is lost, apparently, when somebody retires, and their replacements must puzzle over how to do the complicated work the oldsters had down pat. Is that what it's really like?
[H]ere, in Wisconsin, the battle over public workers may have been the loudest... Union supporters pushed back, leading an effort to recall Gov. Scott Walker next year over the issue. But government workers also left: 16,785 workers filed retirement applications as of Oct. 31, while in all of 2010, 11,750 workers had done so.Where did that all that irrational fear come from? A lot of people are seeing this war... why? Why are they seeing the governor's effort to fix the budget as a "war"? Why do they see themselves as "scapegoats"?
“It’s about fear,” said Jim Palmer, executive director of the Wisconsin Professional Police Association. “A lot of people are seeing this war on public employees and saying, let’s get out.”
Remember "The Culture of Fear: Why Americans Are Afraid of the Wrong Things"?
Why are so many fears in the air, and so many of them unfounded?...The link goes to a long passage from that book at the "Bowling for Columbine" website. "Bowling for Columbine," you may remember, was the Michael Moore movie about guns in America, and the point was that the gun-clinging sector of America was seized with irrational fear.
We compound our worries beyond all reason....
We had better learn to doubt our inflated fears before they destroy us. Valid fears have their place; they cue us to danger. False and overdrawn fears only cause hardship....
Any analysis of the culture of fear that ignored the news media would be patently incomplete, and of the several institutions most culpable for creating and sustaining scares the news media are arguably first among equals....
I'd like to see some balance in the diagnosis of fear in the media, for example, the New York Times.
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234 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 234 of 234"garage mahal said...
Taxpayers are coerced into paying private sector companies for services provided as well. Spectrum in Madison even received millions just for agreeing not to move out of Wisconsin. No services provided at all."
Again you post this bullshit. Now the facts:
Spectrum received a loan. It wasn't "to stay." They have to pay back this loan with interest unless they:
a) maintain at least 470 full-time jobs at its corporate headquarters and technology center in Madison through Sept. 30, 2016.
b) Spend at least $40 million on equipment or building improvements by the same date.
Funny if it wasnt causing states and the fed to go broke.
The richest country in the history of the universe is broke from public workers? You've got be a seriously deluded wingnut to believe that.
Everybody knows Walker did what he did because of political power and nothing more.
Curious George
I'm not sure what the difference is.
Not leaving Wisconsin = not moving their jobs out of Wisconsin.
The company I work for didn't receive a dime. And we're hiring.
"You don't own unions and yet you feel you can dictate how they are structured and how their members are compensated."
If unions were voluntary I'd agree that no one has a right to regulate anything about them. Not their membership, not their elections.
But that's not the case, is it.
Laws require union membership. If the state is going to compel union membership then the state has a right and a duty to know what it is compelling and under what conditions.
In fact, removing the state from the business of compelling union membership or from collecting union dues is called union busting.
Sorry, garage, but the unions want to be in bed with government because only government can force workers to be members of unions.
Decouple that and I'll be on board with letting unions manage their own affairs any way they please to do so. They can have non-secret ballots or simply appoint officers. Who cares what they do if the state is not being used to enforce membership or dues collection?
Granted, if the unions started trying to do the compelling, which would likely happen, then they're crooks and thugs and it should be against the law. Every state should be a right to work state.
"The richest country in the history of the universe is broke from public workers? You've got be a seriously deluded wingnut to believe that."
Local and State governments aren't the Feds, garage. They have to pay their bills.
The *country* isn't going broke, because we'll just borrow more from China.
Right?
I have to wonder, though, at the religious faith involved in the notion that there's no end to the money and budgets are nothing more than political power plays because Walker is a meanie.
If Walker's heart was pure the magic money fairy would wave her wand of sparkles and all would be well.
Also, that recession and unemployment thing... an illusion!
You don't own unions and yet you feel you can dictate how they are structured and how their members are compensated.
Uh, the unions are public sector.
They are governed by the laws of the state.
The people elected representatives to govern.
You are a bozo.
garage mahal said...
The richest country in the history of the universe
America is not "the richest country in the history of the universe"
It is actually the one with the most debt.
garage mahal said...
The richest country in the history of the universe is broke from public workers?
Er, watching you conflate "states" going broke and the federal treasury is highbrow comedy and typical of your ignorant style. Anyway, this is part of the problem.
According to data collected by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), Medicare has spent more than $240 million of taxpayer money on penis pumps for elderly men over the past decade, and will surpass a quarter of a billion dollars this year for costs since 2001.
The cost to taxpayers for the pumps more than quadrupled during that period, from a low of $11 million in 2001 to a high of more than $47 million in 2010. And these represent only the costs for external devices, technically classified as “Male Vacuum Erection Systems,” not implantable devices or oral drugs such as Viagra.
Since you're in favor of endless Medicare & Medicaid spending, how many of those have you received anyway, garage?
"garage mahal said...
Curious George
I'm not sure what the difference is.
Not leaving Wisconsin = not moving their jobs out of Wisconsin.
The company I work for didn't receive a dime. And we're hiring."
You don't see the difference because you are an idiot. But allowing that, you still ignore the fact that they have to invest $40 million into their business here (and therefore into the WI economy.)
And if you're company is hiring, their are tax incentives that you would be eligible for.
Local and State governments aren't the Feds, garage. They have to pay their bills.
I was responding to Michael who asserted fed and local were going broke because of public workers. Walker is mandated by law to balance the budget. Every governor before him managed to do it without taking a wrecking ball at it. That's why he is going to be recalled.
And the ever present requests to cut and paste inane things into one's status updates.
Man, I hate those almost as much as I hate it when people TEXT CHAIN LETTERS! Stop it!
I tend to skip most of the political crap on facebook. I just like to see people's pictures, mostly.
"garage mahal said...
Walker is mandated by law to balance the budget. Every governor before him managed to do it without taking a wrecking ball at it. That's why he is going to be recalled."
More bullshit. Doyle balanced the budget by stealing from the tobacco fund, stealing from the transportation fund, and using billions from one time stimulus cash from the Feds, and raising taxes by $2 billion (after promising he wouldn't). He is the asshole who took a wrecking ball from the state.
And that why he didn't run. No way he could raise taxes, there was no more money to steal, and he didn't want the legacy of cutting thousands of state workers or reducing all his entitlement programs.
Jim Doyle knew what you and your ilk are too fucking stupid to know.
Walker is mandated by law to balance the budget. Every governor before him managed to do it without taking a wrecking ball at it. That's why he is going to be recalled.
Walker is simply engaging in reality-based governance. That you union-lovers are lashing out like crazed mad dogs is of no import. You will lose the recall just like you lost every election of import since Nov 2010.
"Every governor before him managed to do it without taking a wrecking ball at it."
Really?
And nothing is different the last couple of years? No economic crunch? No recession? Unemployment is still 5%? I suppose everyone is lying about the increased debt too? I'll bet the Federal government doesn't even really owe anyone trillions of dollars.
After all, no one else ever owed that much, so they must now owe that much now?
Budgets and obligations haven't grown, huh? And all the other governors could meet them, but all of a sudden Walker can't and if that's true it's because he's just a meanie.
I know you aren't dumb. Do you really believe, really, that with the economy the way it is that there are no legitimate reasons for the state government to cut back anything? If you argued that something else ought to be cut that would be legit. People can disagree. But you come with this ridiculous claim that there is no reason for any sort of belt tightening when it comes to state government, that ends can be met if only Walker wanted to do it.
The richest country in the history of the universe is broke from public workers?
Believe it or not, public pensions with nearly unlimited benefits paid out over a longer time frame than you worked for...tend to be budgetary nightmares.
And in what alternate universe is being in debt $15T "wealthy"? Using your logic, Enron at the time of its collapse was actually exceptionally wealthy. It owed a lot of money.
Shall we go into how deep in the hole NJ or IL is?
Everybody knows Walker did what he did because of political power and nothing more.
Yet it saved many public sector jobs. Funny.
Every governor before him managed to do it without taking a wrecking ball at it.
Provided one doesn't count looting of other government funds "taking a wrecking ball at it".
I do wonder why you blame Bush for the economic downturn if this is your line of reasoning
Garage: The richest country in the history of the universe is broke from public workers? You've got be a seriously deluded wingnut to believe that.
OR, ya know, actually follow the meltdown in Europe as an example.
OR, ya know, look at announcements by major American cities that the lavish pensions are busting their budgets.
Look, I'm sorry that anyone gets a pay cut, but in 2008-2009 I took a 60% pay cut. Everyone I worked with took an average 20% - 30% cut. Paid sick days were eliminated entirely.
That's a pay cut in the private sector (the people who pay net taxes), so cry me a river.
Out of over 100 people, nobody chose to quit. Some jobs were eliminated. Now 2 years later, all pay has been restored, PLUS unprecedented regular bonuses for all. It was extremely hard work and sacrifice to turn it around.
That's what happens when good, capable and loyal people get their pay cut in a well run private company. The employees fix it, because there is no crying in the private sector. You can't raise taxes or simply demand that your wages be maintained despite the economics of it.
Like the public employees, our customers were no longer willing or able to pay what we were getting. So they stopped. We had to make ourselves worth it again, and give them what them wanted.
I wonder how hard these public employees will work to fix the problem of not being worth it to their employers? Will they just keep going on doing things exactly the same and hope the rest of us in the private sector do what's needed to pull them out of this?
Public employees should be working hard to find ways make 10 people do what was done before by 20. Then their customers could afford to pay that 10 more. The other 10 are not needed there and need to find other employment. I would suggest the private sector. It's a lot more risk, but a lot more opportunity. Best of all, you will be filling the kitty - not emptying it.
"Garage: The richest country in the history of the universe is broke from public workers? You've got be a seriously deluded wingnut to believe that."
It's not a matter of ideology or faith anymore. The whole world is demonstrating the simple truth of it. Nation after nation - week by week.
Unlike AGW, this is what real evidence looks like - even the people who hate to admit it are accepting it now. Well, the honest ones anyway.
Bagoh20
Your experience was shared by most in the private sector. And so it is to be expected that those of us who took twenty, fifty, sixty percent hits to income and portfolio are not impressed with the miniscule cuts experienced broadly in the public sector and are not sympathetic to whining. Mostly we gritted our teeth and kept plugging. Mostly they whined.
Jesus you guys are talking economics with garage? This is the guy who told me we can't go under because we can print all the money we need.
Lavish public funded pensions are the wave of the future. Look how well its worked in Europe.
"Every governor before him managed to do it without taking a wrecking ball at it."
In your world, wrecking ball is when a governor does not increase state spending from the prior year?
Doyle balanced the budget by stealing from the tobacco fund,
I'm pretty sure it was McCallum who started that.
"MadisonMan said...
Doyle balanced the budget by stealing from the tobacco fund,
I'm pretty sure it was McCallum who started that."
Yep, I stand corrected. Doyle refinanced the bonds IIRC...
@Frederson: "Yes, this would happen in those rare instances where the marginal rate on taxable income exceeds 100%--and last I checked the top rate in the U.S. was nowhere near that. My God, for a financial advisor, you sure don't know much about how either the tax system or how DBP are calculated."
Thanks to phaseouts of things like student loan interest deductibility, the effective marginal rates of income taxes increase far more steeply than the nominal rates at certain income levels, especially in the $100-150K range. For certain individuals with a lot of legitimate deductions, the effective marginal rate from a modest raise can indeed exceed 100%.
You will fear whatever the NYT decides you should fear.
That is all.
"I'm shocked that tax credits aren't creating jobs."
Isn't a job saved just as good? It was for O!
"war on public employees"
Asking public employees to pick up a bigger share of their insurance and retirement costs is war? If that's war, then what is it when this mouthpiece and his brothers in blue hit people with batons?
People are leaving in droves. There is a brain drain in state service.
From a taxpayer point of view that's a feature.
Let's face it. The body starts really falling apart at 55 and conservatives want these people working to 75? Good luck with that. Work is a game for the young. Remember in the old days of Paleolithic times, nobody lived past 35-40.
No. It's just that I have to train dumbasses like you for 3 or four years until you learn enough to do something useful, and THEN you can start a journymans apprenticeship.
Show up early.Before I do. Dress like you want to learn, not like you're auditioning for a part.Ask a lot of questions. Pay attention. You're going to get dirty.Get used to it.
A lot of young people today can't hack it unless it involves a video game.
I wonder if the public employee unions actually look at Europe right now and are able to draw any conclusions why so many Eurozone nations are on the brink of economic collapse?
Their leaders read Paul Krugman, who assures them that Europe would be in tip-top shape if only the entire European Union spent a ton more in borrowed money, and inflated the crap out of the euro.
When the public employee union leaders have consumed their weekly dose of Krugman, they read Andy Stern on how wonderful things are in mainland China—and dream of getting rid of elections so their pet politicians will remain in power indefinitely.
Byro-J,
No point in arguing with tweek trash.
Then quit commenting here.
You won't be missed.
Everybody knows Walker did what he did because of political power and nothing more.
The unit known as Garage could repetitively produce this same output, once per thread, for the next several years.
It would make as much sense as anything else in the unit's output, and spare its programmers most of their remaining expense.
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