She spoke with historian Arthur Schlesinger Jr. shortly after the assassination on tape recordings that Caroline Kennedy has decided to release early, supposedly "in exchange for ABC dropping its £10 million drama series about the family."
Also on the tapes: Jackie's belief that JFK was "having an affair with a 19-year-old White House intern," that she had affairs with movie star William Holden and Fiat founder Gianni Agnelli, and that "weeks before Mr Kennedy’s assassination, the couple had turned a corner in their relationship and were planning to have more children."
August 7, 2011
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113 comments:
weeks before Mr Kennedy’s assassination, the couple had turned a corner in their relationship and were planning to have more children
They had a baby who died just three months before the assassination.
Peter
DEMOCRATS, writ large.
That's all I see - everything about them is right there. Including the desire to populate the Earth with more like them.
Yeah, that's all they needed, more children. That would stop the affairs and philandering.
...she had affairs with movie star William Holden and Fiat founder Gianni Agnelli...
Very clever, Fiat. I smell a publicity hoax. From the transcripts:
Jackie: "But Gianni, Jack wouldn't be caught dead in a Fiat!"
Gianni: "My dear, Jack has obviously never seen the new Fiat 500c."
Jackie: "Ooh, sporty!"
Bill Holden had good taste in women:
Audrey Hepburn
Grace Kelly
Jackie O
Not bad.
The (now) 67-year-old former intern hasn't cashed in this news yet?
...she had affairs with movie star William Holden and Fiat founder Gianni Agnelli
In with The Lion and out with the lambs.
Bill Holden had good taste in women:
Audrey Hepburn
Grace Kelly
Jackie O
Not bad.
Unfortunately he was too slow to learn that getting drunk around sharp-edged furniture is maybe not such a bright idea.
Peter
Doesn't Jackie end the film with "I'm ready for my closeup Mr. Zapruder!" ?
The Kennedy's
Who.Really.Gives.A.Shit.
Of all the conspiracy theories out there regarding JFK's assassination, LBJ makes the most sense: hated Kennedy; wanted to be president; Texas was his turf - motive and means.
But we can't have Democrats killing Democrats, can we?
I mean, other than Teddy drowning Mary Jo Kopechne. Some Democrats are more equal than other Democrats...
Jackie is still big...
it's the politics that have gotten small!
--Sunset 1600 Blvd.
Jackie Kennedy was myopic. And, one night. While I was dining with a girlfriend at a 57th street restaurant, in walks Onassis with Jackie. Jackie needed to use the bathroom.
Today, I'd tell ya that Onassis looked like Dominique Straus Kahn. Well dressed. White hair. He went over to the bar to wait. And, men jumped up to go over and talk to him.
Why did Jackie marry him?
To be taken care of. Because JFK died BEFORE Joe and Rose. Jackie really couldn't touch any Kennedy money. Onassis offered her this.
Looking back, I don't think he was that hard to go to bed with. But he really didn't treat her well! Teddy came along to help Jackie! And, Teddy was Jackie's protective umbrella. Until she met Templesman. Orthodox Jewish. Left his wife for Jackie. And, took what little money Jackie had (about $3 million dollars) ... and he did the investing ... that made her rich.
While Onassis was so mean! He purposely had Jackie's European bedroom painted red. And, decorated to look like a bordello.
Onassis was MEAN.
JFK? Just not faithful.
What can you do? When Marilyn Monroe came to sing Happy Birthday to Jack (when he turned 50?) ... Jackie wouldn't go.
Behind the scenes Jackie dealt with the pain you get when you really do love a man who is faithless.
Only now that I've grown up and I'm looking back ... I think women should just take it in stride. The calmer the better.
Why should staying calm just be for the queen of england?
Yep, the LBJ theory makes sense except there's not one shred of evidence to support it.
Maybe MLK was behind it. After all, LBJ did more for Civil Rights then JFK. Or maybe Jackie O was behind it, and this is her way of throwing us off the trai.
In August of 1968 Jackie miscarried closed to term. But the kid had lung problems. And, "Patrick" didn't make it.
They said JFK cried at this funeral.
I remember these events well.
By the time November rolls around, for Jackie she had to start wearing her "political wife's hat."
Then? JFK's brains flew all over her skirt and Jacket! And, still the driver of the car sat frozen. Till she crawled out to the back hood. And, two secret service agents, to push her back in ... also stepped on the back bumper. Given the order to the driver to drive to "a" hospital. Which turned out to be Parkland.
The Grassy Knoll has been trimmed of its knoll. The lampposts have been moved. Or raised. So you can't even go there, now, with a tape measure ... to figure out the geometry.
Including the desire to populate the Earth with more like them.
Fortunately they have seemed to have lost that will. At least the traditional way. Rather they hope to spread their ways through indoctrination (hence the focus on education) and ideas that are more virus in nature.
Carol_Herman said...
In August of 1968 Jackie miscarried closed to term. But the kid had lung problems. And, "Patrick" didn't make it.
They said JFK cried at this funeral.
I remember these events well.
Work on the dates Carol.
JFK was the victim of a vast right-wing conspiracy involving Joe Pesci and Newman from Seinfeld.
No?
...I guess one benefit of being a Democrat is you get to cheat on your spouse and it's no big deal.
Wonder if my wife sees it that way...?
I always liked Bill Holden as an actor. I liked Steve McQueen too.
BTW, Netflix has that Kennedy saga on streaming. I watched it. It actually was pretty tame, much of it very complementary to Jack and especially Bobbie, and hardly the hatchet job it was portrayed to be.
They showed Joe Sr. to be a dick, but he was a dick. They did not emphasize his love of Hitler though or his hatred of Jews and general distain of anyone who was not Irish Catholic.
They portrayed Joe Jr. as jealous over Jack being a war hero, so much so that he managed to get himself killed. That may or may not be true. With the exception of Teddy, the Kennedys had their faults but they were not pussies.
Yeah, Jackie was never a big fan of promoting the fact that some weirdo disenfranchised communist killed the President. That would not do to positively impact the image of her husband. She was completely complicit in spreading the myth that there was a conspiracy. She also took it upon herself to try to create the myth of Camelot ex post facto.
LBJ had absolutely not a thing to do with the assassination. It was Lee Harvey Oswald and nobody else.
When it comes to sleaze, "America's Royalty" certainly tops all.
JFK was a crappy president who might not have even been able to get the nomination in 64. But his hagiographers have made him out to be the second coming of Christ.
Jackie O? Don't make me laugh. For all her "elegance" she was pretty much a low grade slut.
The most decent one of the family was Joe Senior. He at least worked and made a relatively honest dollar. Quite a few of them, actually. At one time, before his spawn pissed it away he had amassed a fortune to rival Rockefeller.
You might not like his financial shenanigans and he skated pretty close to the edge of the law. But as far as anyone can tell, he didn't cross it.
More than can be said for his kids.
Will we ever be shut of these folks?
John Henry
Anything on the story about Joe Senior being Jimmy Carter's father?
John Henry
Camelot! Affairs! Betrayal! Marilyn takes some pills. Castro! Interns! Diem! Gunfire! Vietnam! LBJ! Television! National tragedy! George Wallace. McGovern! More betrayal. Bobby! More gunfire! Nixon! Ford! Carter! Over 55,000 Americans die. A man in a helicopter on a roof, kicking loyal Vietnamese in the face just before the last takeoff!
Dear God, save us from our betters.
I can never think of the JFK assasination without remembering (with a chuckle) the true story of what happened on the plane from Dallas. Per Paul Krassner in The Realist circa 1967:
"During that tense flight from Dallas to Washington after the assassination, Jackie inadvertently walked in on Johnson as he was standing over the casket of his predecessor and chuckling…
"Of course, President Johnson is often given to inappropriate response—witness the puzzled timing of his smiles when he speaks of grave matters—but we must also assume that Mrs. Kennedy had been traumatized that day and her perception was likely to have been colored by the tragedy. This state of shock must have underlain an incident on Air Force One which this writer conceives to be delirium, but which Mrs. Kennedy insists she actually saw.
"‘I’m telling you this for the historical record,’ she said, ‘so that people a hundred years from now will know what I had to go through... That man was crouching over the corpse, no longer chuckling but breathing hard and moving his body rhythmically. At first I thought he must be performing some mysterious symbolic rite he’d learned from Mexicans or Indians as a boy. And then I realized—there is only one way to say this—he was literally fucking my husband in the throat. In the bullet wound in the front of his throat. He reached a climax and dismounted. I froze. The next thing I remember, he was being sworn in as the new president.’
"[Handwritten marginal notes: *1. Check with [Warren Commission head] Rankin—did secret autopsy show semen in throat wound? 2. Is this simply necrophilia, or was LBJ trying to change entry wound from grassy knoll into exit wound from Book Depository by enlarging it?]"
John Henry
You're right Fred For Pres.
Jackie Kennedy miscarried her pregnancy, near term, in August of 1963. (Not 1968). Sorry for the typo.
But the baby, who lived for a few days, died. And, had a Catholic funeral. He was named Patrick. And, Kennedy, at the funeral, cried.
Jackie had to recover. But by November 1963 ... was back to having a "president's wife's schedule." And, she accompanied her husband to Dallas.
My biggest question even then ... was how come LBJ couldn't carry his home state? Wouldn't that have been the veep's territory? You know. HIS. OWN. STATE.
Now, if Obama keeps Biden, wouldn't you think Delaware's 3-electoral votes go to Obama?
HOME STATE.
It's like HOME COURT.
Dallas? Wow. JFK thought he needed to do something in a state where his popularity wasn't only slipping, but was on the ropes.
While Camelot was playing on Broadway. Richard Burton played King Arthur. And, Julie Andrews was Guinevere.
John said: "The most decent one of the family was Joe Senior. He at least worked and made a relatively honest dollar..."
Now that is funny.
John, we have to get you and Carol together. You kids would be perfect for each other. You guys have the same writing style and sense of humor!
I received a William Holden Drinking Helmet for my birthday back in the day.
LBJ had absolutely not a thing to do with the assassination. It was Lee Harvey Oswald and nobody else.
I do not believe LBJ had anything to do with it. But that Jack Ruby thing makes me think there was more to that assignation than LHO. The obvious suspects are the mob. They were very upset with helping Jack win Chicago only to have Bobbie go after them.
Oh, gosh! I remember this!
The JFK buttons were LARGE! Women would put the button on the front of their panties. And, dance the Can-Can.
In france, the real Can-Can is danced sans the dancers wearing underwear.
But yeah. Women have been known to throw themselves at handsome husbands. (Heck, I knew doctors who used to get notes slipped into their pockets!) By patients who had fallen in love. But not with their husbands.
Ya know, back in the early 1940's, women would faint when Frank Sinatra came on stage.
Then, I heard, all that fainting was hired people who did PR stunts.
While I could see fainting for Frank Sinatra.
I can even remember playmates of mine, arguing over Jerry Lewis or Dean Martin ... being our fictitious husbands.
My mother laughed. And, told me about Rudolph Valentino.
You know, I once thought all the women I knew had a crush on Marlon Brando.
Even Ronald Reagan, out working factory floors for GE ... had women pulling out a breast, and handing Reagan a pen. Asking him to sign their tit.
Good men go home and tell their wives.
Carol, I've got you pegged for either Hill or Noonan.
Am I close?
Fred? Fred For Pres. Get real! I knew Joe Kennedy paid FDR money so he could become Ambassador to England. (Because you can buy politicians. If you bribe them high enough.)
And, I knew Joe was in love with hitler!
In 1960 ... JFK made believe his dad wasn't involved in bootlegging. Where all the family money came from.
Which taught me that yes. An Irishman can find an Italian. As long as the "Business" wasn't Kosher.
Why do you want to play matchmaker?
Quayle. I'm Jewish. You mean you couldn't tell? Peggy's Irish. Who is Hill? Anita?
Still, your writing is too good for Hill, and you're too crass for Noonan.
But I'm pretty sure I'm in the neighborhood.
"William Holden Drinking Helmet"
What is that? Sorry for being ignorant.
What happened to the Bay of Pigs?
Wasn't there a oonspiracy that people involved at the Bay of Pigs were involved in Kennedy's assassination?
And, then, they showed up later at the Democrapic Headquarters break-in. The one that led the FBI to get Nixon down! And, two cub reporters ... to disguise Mark Felt, called him DEEP THROAT. And, he had to go senile, first, before his name got thrown out.
Are we betting? I'm betting on the cubans. And, the CIA.
I've been watching Mad Men on Netflix, which often shows old TV clips of the Kennedys. What struck me is how stupid Jackie Kennedy comes across in those old clips, and I was not predisposed to think of her that way. Maybe it's just in comparison to modern political wives, but honestly, she sounded like a child. Did women just act that way back then, or was Jackie in her own class?
Hillary. I was wondering if you were Clinton, sitting in a boring hotel room somewhere along the pacific rim, sipping on a gin and tonic and checking in to Althouse kind of like Marie Antoinette would go to the hamlets.
But you're Jewish.
Hmmmm.
Not too hard to imagine a drinking hat. That works like an IV. But the bag is on your head. And, the tubing goes into your mouth. Two beer cans sit on the side of your head. And, both are opened. Like the IV bag ... with the tubing.
Ocean—
It's the punchline from a tasteless joke.
"What do you buy for the man who has everything."
Holden died from a drunken fall.
Hillary? I only wished I had those hips! Going into labor without those hips hurts the most.
I don't make fun of wide hips.
I just wish I had them.
"Jackie's belief that JFK was 'having an affair with a 19-year-old White House intern' ..."
The original "Devil With The Blue Dress On."
Carol Herman said: The JFK buttons were LARGE! Women would put the button on the front of their panties.
I have an old JFK campaign button that is about 3 1/2 inches across. Bigger than most diaphragms I think.
Jackie Kennedy was only married to Jack for 8 years. She was young enough to try again, having another kid. She was all of 40 when she married Onassis. And, people bet she'd go for having another kid.
And, reports would come out ... since she was the most photographed woman on earth (until Diana came along). And, the "pregancy rumors kept on popping.)
Jackie was extremely thin! If she swallowed an olive she could set off rumors she was "expecting."
She was actually a great mom, though. Very involved.
That's not how it was for Jack while he was growing up.
Fred,
I know that Joe Senior was a world class sleaze on a number of levels.
Horrible, horrible person.
But still the best of the bunch.
And I don't think he was ever charged with anything illegal. I include bootlegging. Although he did own a liquor distribution company, Somerset Liquors, and he operated it (legally) right through prohibition. I think the rumors of his being involved in bootlegging are just that, rumors. There does not seem to be any substance to them.
John Henry
I cannot think of any public figures whose reality was so divergent from the image as JFK and his wife. One always knew that LBJ and Nixon were dicks. Subsequent revelations only served to confirm one's suspicions. I was very young at the time, but I really bought into the Camelot myth....Everyone thought that Kennedy was a man of "vigah" and health. But when you look at the pictures of him now, you notice his frailty and pained movements. It's amazing how no one commented on it at the time. Well, if the press can hide FDR's wheelchair, how tricky can it be to hide a bad back......The Camelot myth continues to flourish. The public still ranks him very high among past Presidents. The James Dean of American Presidents.... I saw the miniseries. The actors who portrayed JFK and Bobby were nowhere near as good looking and magnetic. With the exception of Ronald Reagan (who, after all, was a movie star), what other American President was better looking than the actor who portrayed him on film......I wasn't shocked at what they portrayed in the miniseries. I was shocked that they portrayed it. Their sins are not forgiven so much as never mentioned in portrayals of the lives of JFK and Bobby.
Thanks VS - now I know the rest of the story.
Tasteless but funny.
I don't think it is fair to say Joe Kennedy was pro-Hitler. He was, however, anti-British. It was very difficult for an Irishman of Kennedy's generation to wholeheartedly root for Great Britain.....I can't understand why FDR would make him Ambassador or why, for that matter, Kennedy would want the position.
JFK was on enough prescription meds to kill a horse. And the MSM kept it from us.
She didn't mess with guys wit' no cash, thatz fo' sho!
Tim said...
...I guess one benefit of being a Democrat is you get to cheat on your spouse and it's no big deal.
Wonder if my wife sees it that way...?
That's because Democrats studiously avoid any claim on morals.
Fen said...
JFK was on enough prescription meds to kill a horse. And the MSM kept it from us.
JFK was well protected. As a Naval Officer, he lost his command, PT109. There should have been a court martial or inquiry of some sorts. Say Jack, last night you left here with crew in your boat. Where's your boat?
What about Rose? She might have had a learning disability. Clearly Jack, Bobbie and Ted were sharp, and she might have had trouble keeping up. What Joe Sr. had done to her was tantamount to pithing her brain. At least Teddy acted remorseful about that: he reportedly visited her regularly. The Kennedys were disgusting.
Although Eunice Shriver was a remarkable exception.
Sorry, Milwaukee, but you're way off base, here. Belmont Club has posted about the Navel heroics at Guadalcanal. The USS Washington was hidden from view of the Japanese ship that goes down. PT 109 was among many lost there.
And, JFK swam MILES directing crew to an island. Pulling an injured shipmate along. By grabbing the man's life jacket in his teeth!
History really doesn't supply you with a pissing contest. You don't like JFK. Big deal.
Wretchard at Belmont Club believes that JFK lived on after the assassination attempt:
"Well who knows? My own belief was that JFK’s brain was removed at Parkland Hospital and transplanted into the body of a black man. Kennedy, now black, spent his final days at the Shady Rest retirement home, possibly in the company of Elvis Presley, who had faked his own death for reasons unknown. Kennedy continued to live in fear of Johnson and suspected that Johnson had sent Egyptian mummies to finish the job he started. He allegedly shared his fears [with]Presley after observing a shadowy figure in the hallway:
The President:They sent somebody to finish me off. I think maybe it was Johnson himself.
The King: Look, man, President Johnson’s dead.
The President: That ain’t gonna stop him."
Hmmm -- this is like a bunch of WV hillbillies sitting around a potbelly stove swapping tall tales.
wv: y'allhollerin' louder'nevah
The JFK game goes on and on. I suppose its making people money but its hardly interesting anymore.
The difficulty with ascribing JFK's assignation to a conspiracy by some group, it would be necessary to prove the other groups didn't do it. Did the Chicago Mob do it? Can you prove the CIA didn't? Seems there were loads of people who would have been happy to see him dead. Not much of a recommendation.
No doubt LBJ was scum as well. What does it say for JFK that he would so callously inflict him on us, just for JFK's personal gain?
Further, JFK inspired another idiot, of the same initials, to strive for the Presidency. Is there no end to the horrors we must suffer at that family's hands?
Neil Diamond said that his song "Sweet Caroline" was inspired by Caroline Kennedy. Is that creepy?
Isn't it interesting, that we've lived through the invention of film. And, all the rising stars of their time. Just to look back and think we see no magic.
My mom said Rudolph Valentino had "it." And, my mom said Charlie Chaplin's films were really funny. (She was right.)
Will Rogers was America's newspaper. Just like Seinfeld, today. Most people, today, have no idea what Will Rogers said to captivate so many Americans.
FDR was considered one of our best politicians. He'd have the press into his office every day. He rather enjoyed taking them on. And, winning.
Reagan did this, too.
Not too many stars.
And, yet? They fade.
Did you know George Burns performed until he was 100? And, the audiences paid for tickets?
"Say goodnight, Gracie." And, she said "good night, Gracie." One of my favorite lines.
All the stars are dead.
Sometimes, we're just lucky to have film clips.
And, Pavarotti. Where would we be now trying to tell anyone how beautifully he sang?
Magic?
It slips away.
Even as we grow old. And, people can't imagine why we feel so nostalgic.
Talk about conspiracies ... I've always felt we got gypped of the truth with who really killed Lincoln.
Why was Booth shot? He was cornered. He was in a barn. And, he had a broken ankle? Why was he killed before he could be questioned?
You think we have a transparent socity? I beg to differ.
Gossip's always been tossed over the fence.
When I hear how JFK got injections into his ass ... I keep wondering HOW the doctor let that one out of his kit bag!
And, then there's the rumor I heard of Nixon's doctor. Who was so dumb, he labeled the bottles in his little kit bag ... Or he wouldn't know what meds to give to Nixon. How do you go down like that on stage?
Nixon was hit by the FBI.
The "two cub reporters?" Woodward had been in the Navy. Was in his dress whites ... when he was sent to the White House to collect the president's signature. While in the waiting room, the handsome Woodward, met the older Mark Felt. (And, you bet. Two homosexuals making contact. And, then? Woodward was given a phone number to "stay in touch.")
Cher-sa-la-fem. Or however the french say it. This story didn't involve a female! It was GAY. All the way.
Are you happy now?
We're always left on our won to figure things out.
We could discuss how Kennedy managed to get T-Boned by the Jap destroyer. Prior to that he had not exactly been a shining star of the PT boat fleet.
He did perform heroically after the t-boning.
But why was he in the Pacific in the first place?
Can anyone say Inga Arvad? She was a Swedish national who was suspected (wrongly as it turned out later) of being a German spy.
JFK was in such bad health that it took personal intervention by FDR to get him into the Navy. He was supposed to have a DC desk job. When, after several warnings, he continued seeing Arvad, he was shipped off to Florida.
He kept taking the train up on weekends to see her.
He wound up transferring to PT boats to get out of the US and out of trouble.
A bit more to it than that but that's the gist.
John Henry
Kennedy was otherwise a mediocre president who had one great moment,when he resovled the Cuban missle crisis, which came very close to nuclear war and would have resulted in nuclear war had he followed the advice of the joint chiefs and other senior military people. I judge presidents based on momentous issues. Therefore, Kennedy, in my mind, was a great president.
As to the assasination, it is either: (1) the official story is true and simply an incredibly unlikely scenario that actually happened (especially the "magic bullet" and the Ruby piece); and
(2) a conspiracy that almost certainly would have involved some element of the CIA and potentially the prior knowledge of Johnson (there is some evidence to support the prior knowledge issue -- an alleged Johnson girlfriend claimed he said something the night before and the photograph of him ducking down very quickly). I think (1) is probably the truth. But it is one of those deals that I doubt either possibility could be proven beyond a reasaonble doubt.
The glamorization of the Kennedy's always has been absurd (espcially Teddy). I guess it was caused by some combination of liberal media bias and our celebrity culture.
Carol Herman refers to "Navel heroics" in a JFK thread.
Typo, or drollery?
Carol?
Not EVERYONE worshipped JFK and Jackie O--remember, it was at that time the closest election in US history. My late mother got so sick of seeing Jackie's puss on women's magazine covers she once said: "If I see another picture of her in that stupid pink pill-box hat I think I'm going to throw up!" LOL!!
I've always felt we got gypped of the truth with who really killed Lincoln.
Johnson?
Carol_Herman wrote:
What can you do? When Marilyn Monroe came to sing Happy Birthday to Jack (when he turned 50?) ... Jackie wouldn't go.
You seem pretty cocksure of all this intimate detail, yet you can't be bothered to check a simple documented fact? JFK died at age 46. So what's your source for all this, The National Enquirer?
The Kennedys are the biggest source of bullshit and mindrot this side of UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster.
Cherchez la femme, Bucky. Cherchez la femme.
Speaking of Ellroy, he described the Kennedy Era thusly in American Tabloid:
Mass-market nostalgia gets you hopped up for a past that never existed. Hagiography sanctifies shuck-and-jive politicians and reinvents their expedient gestures as moments of great moral weight. Our continuing narrative line is blurred past truth and hindsight. Only a reckless verisimilitude can set that line straight.
The real Trinity of Camelot was Look Good, Kick Ass, Get Laid. Jack Kennedy was the mythological front man for a particularly juicy slice of our history. He talked a slick line and wore a world-class haircut. He was Bill Clinton minus pervasive media scrutiny and a few roles of flab.
Jack got whacked at the optimum moment to assure his sainthood. Lies continue to swirl around his eternal flame.
One of my brother-in-laws has been working on a JFK Assassination exposé since 1982.
I have been patiently waiting for the galley proofs since.
The man with the umbrella.
Too bad Zapruder stayed so focused on JFK's automobile. Not taking his finger off the camera's button. But somewhere in the crowd was a man with an umbrella.
Just as the cars came into view, it was reported that there were 3 men on the grassy knoll. Who jumped into the trunks of automobiles to make a getaway.
And, the shooting only started when the man with the umbrella opened his up. Opened and closed. Quickly. The signal.
If you want to believe old rumors.
Lots of people have visited the area where Kennedy (and Connelly) were shot. Some of them scientists with tape measures. But there's recording devices planted. The lampposts were either raised or even moved. And, the grassy knoll had "gardening work done" ... so it's no longer a vantage point from where you can stand. To overlook the street.
Believe what you want.
Meanwhile, after Lincoln was killed "the usual suspects were rounded up." (Which makes a wonderful line in Casablanca.)
Dr. Mudd, who set Booth's broken ankle was taken into custody. Not hung. Shipped to the Florida swamp. Where he heroically saved others overcome with malaria.
Why wouldn't the government, who wanted to hide things, use red herrings?
Kennedy's death happened on a Friday. Reports came out at around Noon, saying he was shot. By 1 PM the nation was told, through Walter Cronkite, that the president was dead.
People were shocked! People stopped working. People in the streets, cried. And, people at home stayed riveted to their TV sets. Where a day or so later, they saw TELEVISED, Ruby shooting Oswald.
Believe what you want.
Arlen Specter came up with the "one bullet theory." It got him all the way into a senate seat. Recently lost. Much to his own surprise.
Bad apples, when they make it to our senate, can have an amazingly long shelf life.
As an aside, I went to a party at William Holden's home in Palm Springs (where he fell and died). It was a beautiful home (not large) with a georgeous view from the Hills of Palm Springs.
Don't much care if Jackie was doing him, although it is an interesting tidbit on how Jackie and Jack lived.
Quaestor, I guessed at Kennedy's age.
The birthday party where Marilyn Monroe sang happy birthday to him remains rather famous. (Marilyn was sewn into that dress.) Jackie didn't go to the birthday party.
And, as long as John F. Kennedy was at least 42 or 43, he was eligible for the presidency.
I have no idea why I thought he was 50. When we're young we tend to think that you have to turn 50 ... to turn a milestone in age.
You'd be surprised how the country grieved Kennedy's assassination, though. I even remember my mom saying, then, that I was seeing how people felt when DDR died. And, people, in public, shedded tears.
The fact is that JFK was killed by a commie with ties to Castro. But the Warren Court and LBJ did NOT want to investigate any connection between Cuba and Oswald too deeply. They were afraid that if Castro was tied to the assassination, the Yahoos would demand a Cuban invasion, something we had promised the Soviets not to do.
The Communists and the Left were also willing to bury the "A Commie killed our President" meme, and spread absurd rumors that everyone from Nixon to Pillsbury Dough-boy did it. Soviet archives reveled the KGB was involved in this.
FDR. Forgive the typos.
Bill Holden was a hunk! Who wouldn't have wanted to have sex with him?
I even remember a story being told about Marlon Brando. Perhaps going back to the 1950's? He'd bet people he could get the waitress serving them food ... in a restaurant where he sat with friends ... "to go to bed with him." They were shocked. But for him, it was easy.
They're just one night stands.
While, if there wasn't the Blue Gap Dress evidence, would you have believed Monica?
rcocean ... Don't the Bay of Pigs guys show up at the democrapic headquarters break-in ... that got Nixon into so much trouble?
And, yes. I heard at the time of Kennedy's assassination ... that the cubans (here) were angered we left their men in the lurch at the Bay of Bigs. (Which was approved in Eisenhower's time. But JFK pulled the plug.)
The stuff you mention sounds like the missile crisis. 1991? And, the soviets pulled their nukes out of cuba. While we pulled them some place else? My memory no longer serves. Khrushchev. The guy who rose to power when he stepped on the tubing to stalin's oxygen tank.
Zapruder also handed his film over to Life Magazine. Because he knew if he gave it to the Feds, it would disappear. Still, you know, 3 frames are MISSING.
You see JFK lifting his hands to his throat. Shot #1. But when the back of his head flies out ... That shot's coming from in someone firing in FRONT of the vehicle.
Oswald couldn't fly into that position. He was seated behind, in the book depository. By a window. (I think on the 3rd floor.)
The umbrella man would have signalled him the car was toodling forward. He didn't see it coming because he was inside the building. He saw, forward. To where the car would be in a few seconds.
Then? No one comments that Jackie scooted out on the back hood? If the car had been flying out of there ... she could not have done so. The driver stayed put.
Did he get a medal?
The Oswald history is another part of the story that makes it so hard to believe. Oswald was in New Orleans in August (I think) generating publicity with the Fair Play for Cuba committee. There is video and audio tape of him in some type of debate where he comes across as pretty bright.
The Secret Service driver stopping instead of accelerating after the first shot probably made the assassination attempt successful. It was either: (1) an incredible error of judgment under pressure; or (2) evidence of a conspiracy.
The Kennedy head flying back and his brain flying backward is another piece of the story that is hard to believe. But I don't think it has been definitively established that a shot to the back of the head would not cause the head to snap back. The problem is that there is no way to research the exact issue (no one is willing to volunteer to get shot in teh back of the head).
Jodie Foster.
But I don't think it has been definitively established that a shot to the back of the head would not cause the head to snap back.
In fact, it's been definitively established that it would have exactly that effect.
Carol_Herman wrote:
And, as long as John F. Kennedy was at least 42 or 43, he was eligible for the presidency.
Wrong again. According to Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution one must be at least 35 years old to be eligible for the office.
Come on, people. A basic command of basic facts is a prerequisite in my book if you're going to delve into "secret histories" and other esoterica and retain any credibility with me.
One of the weird facts of life is the fact that the world is full of people who claim to know the real story on just about any subject, be it the JFK assassination or reptiloids from Planet Xenon yet they can't find their way to fuckin' Starbucks.
Luis Alvarez, a Nobel Laureatte in Phsics, did work showing that that Kennedy's head could have snappedback in just that fashion if he had been shot by Oswald. Unfortunatel I can't find any links to that portion of his investigation online. Amongst other things, they did experiments with rifles shots and watermelons. Kind of R. Lee Ermey-esque.
Chip S:
Come on. Your cite does not even claim to have "definitively established that it would have exactly that effect" [of JFK's head moving backward and the brain parts flying back]. It states as quoted below -- notice the words "probably," "likely," "impossible to predict" and that there is nothing said about the brain matter flying backward.
"The first must be in the direction of the bullet, the second probably opposite to it. (Specifics of any movements beyond the first are difficult or impossible to predict, however.) In fact, JFK’s head did move twice—first briefly forward (the "snap"), then backward (the "lurch"). The quick forward motion proves that the killing shot came from the rear. The rearward motion was likely some combination of jet effect and a neuromuscular stiffening of the back muscles, which together straightened him up and threw him backward."
I have no particular expertise or even an opinion about the issue of whether Kennedy's head and brains moving backward are necessarily evidence that a shot came from the front or the rear, but let's be real -- your cited source provides no definitive proof that a back shot would have had exactly that effect.
I never understand why people overstate their evidence in a debate; the effect is to lessen the persuasiveness of what you say.
Remember, I am someone who has concluded Oswald probably did it alone as the government found.
Carol_Herman wrote:
Zapruder also handed his film over to Life Magazine. Because he knew if he gave it to the Feds, it would disappear. Still, you know, 3 frames are MISSING.
Wrong again! No missing frames, at least none from among the footage that contains the interesting information. And even if 3 were missing that's only 0.15 seconds.
Carol, if you'd acquaint yourself with an interesting chap called William of Occam and his philosophy you might find life less stressful.
The most sensible explanation of events I've heard is the one from the LBJ tapes -- Johnson put the kibosh on the investigation because he thought it would implicate Castro, and the USA had secretly promised the Soviets we would leave him alone.
John said: The most decent one of the family was Joe Senior. He at least worked and made a relatively honest dollar.
You have a strange idea of decency. And just how relative can honesty be?
Take your ad hominem, Quaestor, and shove it where the sun don't shine.
Frames were, and still are missing from the Zapruder film. Critical ones.
Occam's razor can shave your whiskers.
Chip S:
I reread your cite and it does discuss the theory that some brain matter is ejected backward but the largest of which is usually ejected out the exist wound. It seems this explanation more supports a front shot than a back shot, but I don't know if more brain matter went forward or back. It seemed like a large amoung went back where Jackie tried to scoop it up.
KC, You're right. The
other possible explanation for the rearward movement of his head could be the acceleration of the car.
For some reason I presumed you were entertaining other, nutjob theories.
The Bay of Pigs "adventure" was approved by Eisenhower before he left office.
Yes, among his departing words were "Beware the Military-Industrial Complex."
When Kennedy came in he kaboshed the Bay of Pigs support.
I think it was in 1961, the Soviets were bringing nukes to Cuba. And, there was a showdown. Where these nukes got moved off-island.
Then, if you go to 1991, the soviet's are kaput. And, real famine hit cuba! Blindness, from Vitamin D deficiency affected 60,000 cubans. Who filled Havana's hospitals.
Cuba accused America of unleashing a virus. From Guantanamo.
We sent in an eye surgeon (secretly). He brought 100 scientists with him. Mostly Europeans. And, this doctor (Alfredo Sadun) ... told Castro, himself, that it couldn't be a virus. Because it affected both eyes. Viruses would only cancel the vision in one.
And, people didn't "catch" the virus. But it was the poor people. Who didn't even get to eat one chicken a month ... who had nerves from their eyeballs to their brains, disintegrating. Until the whole nation was told they needed to get Vitamin B-12 shots. In a dictatorship, everyone obeys.
But the russians were no longer supporting the cuban economy. (While in Florida, the middle-class cubans who escaped castro, thrived.) They're still thriving.
Any-hoo. The same honchos from the Bay of Pigs ... not only seem to have some fingerprints in the Kennedy assassination. They're right there at democrapic headquarters. Breaking in. In what took Nixon out of office. And, forced him to resign.
Who was behind Kennedy's assassination? I have no idea! But it wasn't Oswald. He was just a stooge. And, he was shot dead before he could even talk to his lawyer.
All governments work in strange ways.
Mort Sahl's comedic career got halted by the IRS. Going to the Hungry-I in San Francisco. And, warning the owner that if he allowed Mort Sahl to come on his stage, he'd be audited.
Fred4Pres said: BTW, Netflix has that Kennedy saga on streaming. I watched it. It actually was pretty tame, much of it very complementary to Jack and especially Bobbie, and hardly the hatchet job it was portrayed to be.
I watched it, too (did you have as much trouble with the stream as I did??).
Bobby was portrayed as a bloody saint, faithful to his wife, incorruptible, on the side of the angels. Hatchet job? Hardly.
So odd that there wasn't a single mention of Ted. He was like the brother who never was.
Well, well. Jackie Kennedy, seeing her dead husband folded over on her lap, couldn't get the driver to accelerate the car!
It's on the Zapruder film! She crawledout the rear ... and, onto the back trunk. When two secret service agents, JUMPED UP ON THE BACK FENDER ... and pushed her back in.
THEN, the car accelerates.
Trust the math.
Teddy Kennedy was elected to John Kennedy's senate seat, in a special election in 1962. Then, in 1964 he got elected to his first 6 year term. He held that seat 47 years. Before he died in 2009.
The person with all the LBJ interactions was Robert! LBJ didn't want to bring him into the Executive's sphere.
Then Robert ran for a senate seat from New York State.
In 1962 Teddy was only 30 years old.
As to the Kennedy's connections to Massachusetts ... it starts when Joe proposes to Rose Fitzgerald.
I guess that's the way a political dynasty gets born?
Across the pond, there's an even more interesting story. John Churchill died, leaving 5 or 6 daughters. But his one son dies before he's married. So there are really no Churchill heirs.
I think Randolph Churchill's father, using lawyers, went to court to ask for his Spencer's name to be changed to Churchill ... since the eldest son had been living in Blenham since John Churcill built it. But left no male heirs.
The truth is stanger than fiction.
Oops. That's a condensed timeline. John Churchill was a 16th (?) Century man. But the name on the castle's door at Blenheim went to "Spencer." Beginning of the 1800's Churchill's grandpa (?) asks the courts to change him name to Churchill.
500 years from now ... will there be in's and out's to the Kennedy saga?
Carol_Herman wrote:
Frames were, and still are missing from the Zapruder film. Critical ones.
Bullshit. Can you list the frames and explain which ones are missing? I doubt it. Zapruder's film contains 486 frames, or 26.6 seconds of Kodachrome II 8 mm safety film, of which 343 of the frames (18.7 seconds) show the JFK's limousine and the fatal shot. Which frames are missing? List them by number.
As for the "ad hominem" you evidently don't know what the term means. If I wrote your posts are bullshit because you're an idiot, that would be an ad hominem attack and a fallacy. But that's not my contention. I'm calling bullshit on your "missing frames" canard because you are advancing a conspiracy theory without evidence.
Carol_Herman wrote:
John Churchill was a 16th (?) Century man.
John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough was 17th and 18th century man. The title passed to the Spencer family through Henrietta Churchill Godolphin, 2nd Duchess of Marlborough who died childless and passed her estate a a nephew, Charles Spencer, Earl of Sunderland, who became the 3rd Duke.
Vitamin D deficiency caused by lack of B 12. In a land where people get more sun than you can imagine. Written in sentence fragments. Made up words like "kabosh" and "mashuga". JFK "facts" gleaned from television. Plastic reindeer.
Hey gang, it's Write Like Carol Herman day!
WV: lubircco - the family that had the "job" done on Kennedy.
Re the cuban missile crises, I would suggest that it was JFKs campaign rhetoric about the missile gap that caused the soviets to forward station intermediate range missiles in Cuba--they, the ussr, already knew they were woefully behind in strategic missiles and felt threatened by the kennedy administration--Perhaps JFK resolved it, but not at some considerable danger; but he was also the cause.
Carol--I think you will find Dr Mudd was imprisioned at Ft Jeffereson in the marqesa islands about 90 miles west of key west. No swamps there.
1) No word exists to denote the wife of a philanderer, but cuckoldry soon follows in futile penance.
2) Soon, the Kennedy era will generate its last printed word, to the relief of millions.
Re the Cuban Missile Crisis:
The US had missiles capable of hitting Moscow in Turkey. The Soviets were not at all happy about this and had been demanding that they be removed. The US would not do that.
The Soviet missiles in Cuba were as much a "Let's see how you like it when the shoe is on the other foot" move than anything else.
A couple months after the Soviets removed the missiles from Cuba, we removed ours from Turkey.
In other words, the crisis was real but manufactured by the US. We could have stopped it at any time by removing our Turkey missiles.
But then JFK would have looked weak. Can't have that, can we?
John HEnry
John--you are indeed correct about our forward stationed missiles in Turkey--and I think Krushchev sized up Kennedy in one of their summits as immature and reckless; seems to me that Kennedy would in retrospect appear to be more a neocon republican than a liberal democrat. Anticommunist, strong on defense and tax cutter. But as you correctly point out, for the kennedy's it was all about image.
There is a good argument that Kennedy's prior conduct caused the Cuban missile crisis, but it a man and the moment deal to me. Whatever the cause, he faced a situation where we were on the brink of nuclear war (more than we knew with operational weapons in Cuba), and he avoided it with actions that with the benefit of hindsight, brought no harm to the U.S.
I probably am as reluctant a Kennedy admirer as anyone, and totally dismiss all the Camelot nonsense, but he met the hugest moment ever, so in my opinion, he is a great president.
By the way, I also put George Bush I in the great category for his action is tossing Husein out of Kuwait and avoiding his ascension to a world power.
And Reagan for the Cold War conclusion. And FDR for WWII (certainly not for any domestic policies). Washington, Lincoln, Polk (mostly for a land grab, but it still was a great achievement in U.S. history), Jefferson (Louisiana purchase). Maybe Johnson on Civil Rights, but he had a lot of other baggage.
Carol Herman: The Kennedy-Johnson ticket carried Texas. By only 46K votes out of almost 2.3M, but they carried it.
Winning VP candidates have carried their home states in 45 elections (since 1804, when separate VP voting was established).
Losing VP candidates have carried their home states 16 times.
Incidentally, in 1960 the Republican VP candidate, Lodge, did not carry his home state. Not that he had a chance - it was Massachusetts.
I think it was Madeleine Duncan Brown, LBJ's mistress, who reported that LBJ said the day before, " After tomorrow, those goddamn Kennedys will never embarrass me again-- that's not a threat--that's a promise." Apparently he, along with Hunt and others knew the fix was in.
RV--so you subscribe to the theory that LBJ knew JFK was going to be assassinated.
Roger, Yes knew and who knows what part he played in it considering how his lawyers protected Mac Wallace after he took out Doug Kinser.
John and Carol are truly a great match for each other.....I am getting addicted to reading Althouse comments looking for their input.
I grew up in a Chicago suburban Irish Catholic ghetto (Oak Park) that Mike Royko wrote a column about - called us "Fertile Acres". Our one block had 120 kids - my family was one of the modest sized families - ten kids. Every house that I was every allowed in had a picture of JFK framed in their living room.
We were home from Catholic school for lunch (they had no hot lunch - we all walked home for lunch)- watching Bozo on WGN when the news broke. We watched television 24/7 for the next five days. I and seven of my siblings and my Dad saw Oswald shot on live television.
When the news first broke, my mother and grandmother told us LBJ was behind it. This was repeated throughout those days and for ever after. I our particular insulated, isolated microsm of Irish Catholic culture, there was never - ever -any other supsect but LBJ. As I grew older and read LBJ biographies and became - for a while - immersed in the cottage industry of Kennedy assassination conspiracies - I never bought any theory other than the simplest one - it was LBJ. I find it fascinating that there are tapes from Jackie espousing this theory. Occam's Razor all the way.
Also - do you all remember how William Holden was found dead in his hotel room - mysteriously? What's up with that?
Another ethnographic infusion to the discussion at hand: During the Bay of Pigs crisis, my little brother died and my folks were at the funeral hone (a two day wake and a Mass of the Nagels - he was autistic- died during a grand mal seizure at the Illinois Pediatric Hospital where he was undergoing electric shock therapy! (sigh - how times have changed) - anyway, we kids were at home alone the night where it looked like Russia was going to cream us with a bomb and I - a 7th grade worrier - made all my little sibling go down to the basement in the canning shed (full of the canned applesauce and jarred peaches and tons of butternut squash wrapped in newspapers) for about two hours until my folks got home from the wake.
They yelled at me for scaring the little kids but I was sure we were going to be attacked that night! Crazy times but somehow - I am still proud that we knew the news of the world as young people. Now days how do young people get their news (no more newspapers, no one gather around an iconic evening news source at night as we did with Walter Cronkite, car radio news that is perhaps the only source?)
Some misinformation that caught my eye:
Tempelsman was estranged from his wife a long time before he and Jackie were seen dating, although he was a family friend going way back.
Various recent books demonstrate that people were standing in line to kill JFK: the Mafia, who had helped him get elected and who RFK was now reining in; Cubans enraged by JFK's non-delivery of promised support; CIA/FBI+J Edgar Hoover; the folks who knew about JFK's semi-plans to assassinate Castro and didn't want that exposed; Castro himself; Onassis, who was a criminal in Kennedy (esp RFK) eyes; and several other big-time festering enemies. Yes LBJ had the motive. And he certainly knew about an aborted similar attempt to kill Kennedy a few weeks earlier in Florida.
A recent book claims/documents that RFK too thought it was an inside job, plus he agonized over his own aggressive stance re the Mafia, after the Mafia had helped old Joe so much (during Prohibition, during the JFK election).
But LBJ on the plane: the casket was not only shut but screwed shut. with screws. One or another Kennedy loyalist (apart from Jackie) sat next to the coffin at all times.
I read and listened to the tapes more than once. Although the pre-release promo touted Jackie saying LBJ did it, such a claim is nowhere in the actual tapes. Nor is an admission to Jackie's affairs, which are semi-documented elsewhere.
And yes, Khruschev was not impressed with JFK on that famous DeGaulle/Khruschev trip -- JFK was high on Dr Feelgood speed to help with pain. Jackie was a success though, with both guys.
Very interesting discussion, with all the usual viewpoints represented. Thank you!
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