This last comment finally pulled [Rebecca] Watson in. "This weekend when I read Dawkins' comments, I was, briefly, without hope. I had already seen the future of this movement dismissing these concerns, and now I was seeing the present do the same." She urges readers to protest Dawkins's work, declaring that "this person who I always admired for his intelligence and compassion does not care about my experience as an atheist woman and therefore will no longer be rewarded with my money, my praise, or my attention. I will no longer recommend his books to others, buy them as presents, or buy them for my own library," she writes.
July 6, 2011
"Richard Dawkins Gets into a Comments War with Feminists."
Drama!
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141 comments:
I saw this coming. Feminism is a belief system not grounded in fact.
It was inevitable Dawkins would take a swipe at it like he bashes Islamazoid Fundies, Christian Fundies, ignorant Christian Zionists, creationists.
Next up for some Dawkins slap downs, hopefully - the non-fact based, belief based, Green Religion
Well, I'm glad to see he's joined the club.
Took him long enough.
Just because Dawkins and feminists share the same enemy does not mean they are friends.
"Dawkins seems to be losing, based on the many who've disagreed with him in the Science Blogs comments section and their own blogs."
No, Dawkins is not losing except in the minds of silly girls who aren't adult enough to turn down a proposition.
The fact that something worse is going on somewhere else does not diminish whatever may be happening here.
I don't buy that logic. Take the Second World War for example. Should Americans have obsessed with injustices like the Japanese internment or focused instead on defeating real fascism?
The feminist's logic is exactly the Sullivanistic logic used to bash domestic Christians instead of bone fide murderous illiberals abroad. The easy, cowardly approach.
And "The Atlantic Wire" is keeping score, because? . . .
A proposition on an elevator is 'misogyny'?
And Rebecca's gonna keep up the fight against misogyny at home, by--?
I saw misogyny on an elevator once. It was in "Dressed to Kill."
That little girl's look was hateful. She clearly had internalized misogyny.
Hey, a fight between people I dislike! I hope they, like the Gingham Dog and the Calico Cat, eat each other up.
stupid redneck, you don't get that because you've never been called a cunt, a faggot, a n*gger, a kike.
/fixed
(and yes, I'm still amused by the rules that some bigotry is more equal than others here, but I'll abide by the silly rule)
Oh, Atlantic. Dawkins is losing a blog war; since he doesn’t have a blog, that’s an easy war to lose.
Of course, the next time the skeptics/atheists have a conference, Richard Dawkins will probably give it a pass. After all, why commingle with people who insult him and attack him for stating a point of view?
That’s okay, the skeptics/atheists will have a large draw from that other respectable scientist and public intellectual,
erm..
just a moment…
I’m sure there’s someone…
[crickets]
(There are many reputable scientists and public intellectuals who are popularizers of science and share many of the ideas professed by the skeptics/atheists, but few of them would consider going to one of their events, let alone after the way RD got treated for an opinion.)
I blogged this at http://josecamoessilva.tumblr.com/tagged/richard_dawkins
The feminists should withhold sex until he shapes up.
The fact that something worse is going on somewhere else does not diminish whatever may be happening here.
And yet, these same feminists will argue that pro-lifers are hypocrites if they don't adopt kids.
The Left doesn't really believe in the things they lecture us about. These women will forget today's logic when its no longer convenient for them.
Dawkins is great, but he really needs to limit his debate partners to folks who do science or math, or who at least know how the knight moves in chess.
Once in awhile, it's true, he would still have to deal with a feminist.
Cedarford wrote: I saw this coming. Feminism is a belief system not grounded in fact.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with having a believe system not grounded in fact. Problems arise when other's rights are trammeled.
If the boor who allegedly propositioned her had instead acted behaved as a gentleman and held the elevator door for her when she got off the story would have been completely different.
C'mon guys. We all know what to do. Just start doing it. In twenty years feminism (as a political movement) will explode in frustration. Feminism as a behavioral expectation will return.
What needs to be said about this that wasn't written in (the deceased) Encyclopedia Dramatica's page on Almost raped
Links goes to cache of down for now, revived ED
They should do a Bloggingheads.
Was Dawkins out of line? Perhaps - even likely. Was the point he made valid? Most certainly. Just one of those things you don't say in polite company.
Doesn't make it untrue, however...
Heh heh heh.
Now I'm torn. I'm not a fan of his work because I think he's intellectually lazy when it comes to religion, but this makes me want to buy his books.
What's the deal at hotels and chicks these days?
We men either have to hang together or we hang separately.
Well, Freeman, I guess he's even then, cuz the "victim" won't buy them anymore. (Just don't get on an elevator with him)!
The terrible 4AM proposition, as transcripted by me from her vlog describing the encounter:
So I walked to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me, and said, "Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?"
Ha ha ha.
And that's the actual quote, not one of my parodies.
Up there with Christopher Hitchens. Always worth reading.
Feminists? They're just chicks who never learned how to wield a rolling pin. Sad lasses.
Can we get a picture of the guy who propositioned Rebecca? Just curious.
My guess is she does not get propositioned a lot. Oh!
If someone can't even say something that innocuous to you, how can you ever form a romantic relationship?
I don't think this is an example of feminism. This is something else.
Oh, Jimbino @ 8:51 PM, that's wonderful!
Well, I foolishly read the linked kerfuffle. I haven't heard that much "all men are exploiter-rapists" bull since college, when the term was "male supremacy."
If you're "uncomfortable" getting "hit on" (which wasn't much of a pass, btw), that's your problem. How pathetic is it for a grown person to feel unable to be alone in an elevator with another human, even - gasp - a man. How debilitating. Aren't we past the "women are helpless porcelain dolls" thing, finally?
- People are sexual. Sexy is sexy. Brains are sexy. Celebrities, even minor ones like conference speakers, get groopied. Good god, even *I* get hit on when I speak. (I'm male, since that point needs to be made.) It's gonna happen.
- Sometimes a cup of coffee is just a cup of coffee. I can't count the times I've hung out, invited and been invited to hang out with folks of all mixes of gender and preference, and it meant "hang out" not "come to my rape-basement."
- Everybody gets assaulted, maybe. And anybody can be the aggressor, maybe. It's not the gender, it's the crazy. A confined space like an elevator is quite bad enough if your company is batshit-woman & potentially fatal if she's got a razor.
I will never qualify as a "hard core" feminist, because I think people are equal. That means people can be crazy (even women), can be at risk from the crazy (not exclusively women), and can take care of themselves (including women).
Dawkins, BTW should know better than to use analogies or god help him sarcasm with the coalition of the perennially indignant, of which the offense-seeking pseudo-feminists are members in good standing. These people are congenitally humorless & have made careers of seeking out things to be offended over.
Having to read about that whiny bitch's complaint makes me feel like I've just been raped in the ass. Hey, sexual harassment!
"So I walked to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me, and said, "Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?"
Shorter version--
"Wanna fuck?
Answer: No.
(Conversation ends.)
Oh, the humiliation,
She seems like a nice person who could be interesting in conversation.
She just needs to calm down about interactions with men.
Man asks to hang out with you and talk in his hotel room, and you don't want to do so, just say, "No, thanks." That's it. No big deal.
I'll bet Rebecca Watson doesn't care for those Austin Powers movies.
"So I walked to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me, and said, "Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?"
Wait? Seriously? This is the "boorish" behavior that started this?
[....]
Stupid Feminists.
She was asked to have a cup of coffee?
All she had to say was, "As long as we can leave the door open".
And Dawkins probably would have been better off going Dennis Miller on her by saying, "Why don't you worry about real women with real problems? Now here's a nickel, honey, go out and buy yourself a clue".
Freeman Hunt said...
If someone can't even say something that innocuous to you, how can you ever form a romantic relationship?
This woman can't even have a romantic relationship with herself.
bourgeois feminism = infantilization
Elevator man insulted her dykedom. So did Dawkins.
Don't fuck with people's PC identity, man. It's all they got.
What these feminists need is to cover themselves completely in black cloth from head to toe except for a little slit for the eyes. That should prevent any unwanted attention.
Also, Freeman, don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting...
Drama on both sides. Good lord.
So I walked to the elevator, and a man got on the elevator with me, and said, "Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?"
And at 4am. This is hilarious. The proper response is "no thanks" (unless you want to go 'have coffee') and mosey about your merry way. Sheesh.
Not a guy.
Also not likely to get hit on in an elevator at night. Except by a drunk.
Can a guy not try to pick up a woman anymore these days?
Just askin'
If that was the scary pick up line, feminism is going the way of the dead tree press.
She needs to take self defense classes if she's that freaked.
wv vater
As in Darth, obviously.
Maybe the guy in the elevator was a dead ringer for DSK and said those innocuous words with his shirt open to the chest like Bernard-Henri Levy. Context is everything......Women who are strikingly good looking get hit on a lot and sometimes in a scary way.....I venture this woman feels more animus against Dawkins than any ten Taliban. If you think Dawkins is the problem, you've got a problem. When we leave Afghanistan, the lives of women there will be made hellish. I have yet to read of any feminist supportive of our role there.
I call bullshit on this story. Atheists never talk this way. Here's the correct version:
"Don't take this the wrong way, (but as an Atheist, who doesn't believe in the Spaghetti Monster), I find you very interesting (since you're obviously far too intelligent to believe in God), and I would like to talk more (about Atheism and why Christians are idiots). Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee,(and possibly have my first sexual encounter)?"
Also, what kind of conversation does she expect to have at 4am? If you want to avoid that, go to bed at a reasonable hour.
Judging from this woman's photo, it could be the first time she has been hit on.
So called feminists are becoming more ridiculous every day. That the left thinks this one is "winning" is beyond parody. No wonder they have to live in a segregated environment.
Man asks to hang out with you and talk in his hotel room, and you don't want to do so, just say, "No, thanks." That's it. No big deal.
No Freeman. No. No. No.
One can't have contact with the aliens unless One inititates it onesself.
Being accosted by a promise of a cup of coffee !!11!1! in an elevator is big!!11!1! And scarey!!11!1!
It's a blog post!11!!1!
I wonder if the accoster is aware of the flap he created because he found a woman "interesting."
I am interested in who the accoster is. What's *his* story?
Come out come out wherever you are!
I guess Richard did not get the Larry Summers memo. Oh well. Get ready for evolution in action: Richard Dawkings just got on the short list for extinction.
I was expecting to see a photo of the guy from Hogan's Heroes and Family Feud..all those Limeys sound alike.
I've seen this Dawkins guy interviewed a couple times..smug asshole.
She needs to man up.
And many consider him an intellectual heavyweight.
Richard Dawkins will probably give it a pass. After all, why commingle with people who insult him and attack him for stating a point of view?
He's been commingling with creationists and religious people for decades. This is nothing new.
It's the Race to be THE VICTIM OF ALL VICTIMS and it is is rounding the final turn and charging for the bottom of the bottom in sympathetic heroes.
Whoever wins will have victimized the others, and a new round of categories will be synthesized to challenge the past winners.
These guys need to go back to a traditional religion that has its suffering servant roles filled already.
Judging from this woman's photo, it could be the first time she has been hit on.
Are you kidding? The "cute geeky girl" look is like catnip to male scientists and engineers.
If feminists want to argue that women are the equal of men, don't they need to stop being afraid of men in elevators? Don't they need to "man up" and stand their ground like a man if they're really truly equal to men? How can you whine about how you feel threatened by the casual come-on of a man and then turn around and claim that you're every bit as strong and capable etc etc etc as a man?
You can't plead feminine fragility and vulnerability and also expect men to believe you really are their equal.
Of course feminists are trying to remedy the very real differences between men and women by turning men into women instead of making themselves more like men. Since they really can't achieve the levels of some kinds of strength that men have, and thus really aren't the equals of men, they have to try to geld men so that they are no stronger than women. The end result of that is a society that will be conquered by men of other cultures who haven't ben castrated.
Please, Sir, the Church of AGW next.
Perhaps she thought he was insultingly less attractive than she perceives herself to be.
Clyde said...
She needs to man up.
I take it woman up is out of the question?
The elevator guy doesn't know the first thing about hitting on women. Coffee in his room? Please. Too direct. Too abrupt. Should have offered to go to a public place for coffee. Perhaps the lobby?
The room gets worked into the conversation later if the coffee date works out. Also, he should have waited until they were both in the lobby or a hallway before popping the question. Less threatening.
If feminists want to argue that women are the equal of men -
That's not their argument. Else, they need to explain how they were dominated for 4,400,000 years.
I think their argument is that they should be treated as equal. Which only happens with our permission.
Hard to know who to root for in the kerfluffle.
Sort of like a gunfight where you wish both sides would shoot one another dead.
I actually side with the young woman, based on the scanty facts we have. I employ several teenaged women who get hit on constantly. Just because a woman is in public or works in a job where she faces the public (waitress, convenience store, retail), that doesn't mean she is part of the merchandise display and should be inspected and treated as such.
Common courtesy and respect does not include propositioning random people in an elevator. He crossed a line.
Use the wife/daughter test. If it was your wife/daughter, and she got off the elevator and pointed out the guy and told you what he said, would you lecture her on how privileged she is not to suffer the abuses women under the Religion of Peace do or would you go stomp the creep's ass into the carpet?
would you go stomp the creep's ass into the carpet?
No way would that be my reaction.
And if I were the woman on the elevator and my husband had that reaction, I would think he was insane.
Use the wife/daughter test. If it was your wife/daughter, and she got off the elevator and pointed out the guy and told you what he said, would you lecture her on how privileged she is not to suffer the abuses women under the Religion of Peace do or would you go stomp the creep's ass into the carpet?
In this case, I would applaud as you were led off to prison for stomping the creep's ass.
The guy didn't do anything wrong. In fact, he was polite.
You've got a bit of a problem, however.
My wife or daughter would not be hysterical (yes, I went there) enough to feel endangered and victimized by being asked out for coffee.
Feminism breeds such fragile flowers.
She 's going to need some serious PTSD therapy for being asked out. Probably will need meds and a lawsuit to recover. Oh, the humanity!
windbag: Failure to use common courtesy (or effective pick up techniques) does not constitute sexual harassment, or become merely threatening. I have only sons, but would tell my nieces to clearly and firmly decline the offer.
Women (really just the "womyn") need to get over this constant need to be a victim.
It might be an odious annoyance to her to be 'hit on' in an elevator at 4am-- maybe her defenses were down, maybe the guy looked creepy.
It might even be just the thing to gripe over, on your blog.
But she's univeralizing this ridiculously small, trivial encounter. It's part and parcel of the Burqa! The Patriarchy! The Struggle!
And now Dawkins' very books are too impure to be bought for gifts!! Because he made a point about the suffering of women worldwide!
I suppose Dawkins' might be well advised not to put his nose in this things. But he's a pugilist. Who is this small woman anyway? A silly goose he doubtless thought embarassed his cause.
He got that right.
The last few days of reading men's comments about the hotel maid, and now this...
Whew!
There are a lot of men out there who are short a few marbles when it comes to anything involving women and sex.
What a shitload of hysterics!
The women have been remarkably calm about the maid and about the flirting.
The men are another story.
When I read this, I mistakenly thought it said Richard Simmons. Actually, that would have been much more interesting.
that doesn't mean she is part of the merchandise display and should be inspected and treated as such. Common courtesy and respect does not include propositioning random people in an elevator. He crossed a line.
Inspected? Treated as merchandise? You have to make stuff up to have an argument. Again, he said:
"Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?"
grackle,
The elevator guy doesn't know the first thing about hitting on women. Coffee in his room? Please. Too direct. Too abrupt. Should have offered to go to a public place for coffee. Perhaps the lobby?
The room gets worked into the conversation later if the coffee date works out. Also, he should have waited until they were both in the lobby or a hallway before popping the question. Less threatening.
You guys kill me.
I got into this head space for a while, where I became an expert at saying, "I want to FUCK you so bad,..." that got me laid almost every time.
Now I can barely stand to deal with women on that level. I know I'm a better fuck than they are, so chatting them up is more work than I can be bothered with - they're just not that hot to me anymore. Plus I don't trust them, so it seems pretty pointless.
It's not a testosterone issue but, like, this woman, so full of herself, isn't even remotely interesting.
In some ways, when it comes to the man/woman thing, I feel sorry for people. The men, working so hard not to face rejection, and the women thinking getting attention is such a chore - when they work so hard to look attractive - it's all so ironic and silly.
Now, I feel like the referee.
"Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?"
I have a feminist friend who might have found that proposal offensive from Dawkins, but during one drunken conversation admitted she would have dropped trou for Vin Diesel should he have ever said "Yo" to her.
Today's feminists are like women of all times, only more annoyingly so. (And yes, I include my friend in this; I am happy to have annoying friends.)
Liberal fascism.
'I don't agree with him' or 'He didn't say what I demand he says' = 'I will not expose myself to his ideas!'
This is not what democracy looks like.
Mark,
I have a feminist friend who might have found that proposal offensive from Dawkins, but during one drunken conversation admitted she would have dropped trou for Vin Diesel should he have ever said "Yo" to her.
Exactly. You can't trust a word they say. They don't even know what they mean or want. Especially sexually.
Too much work.
One more time, because it's so often apt:
Area Woman Recalls Days When She Resented Being Hit On
SALEM, OR—Kimberly Jones, 43, vividly remembers the bygone days when she took umbrage at being pursued by aggressive suitors, sources reported Monday. "I was quite the looker back in college—I couldn't even go out for a few drinks with my girlfriends without some guy macking on me," Jones said from the kitchen of her one-bedroom apartment. "That used to really piss me off for some reason I can no longer even begin to fathom. Maybe my memory is starting to go." Jones then gazed longingly into her cup of tea.
"Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?"
That a modern feminist finds herself threatened by such approaches is a good argument for protecting women a la the Victorians.
The modern vapors.
At least where/when I grew up, it was always taught that it's always a woman's prerogative to change her mind.
I don't hold this against women in general (they got the teaching too) but the neofeminists turn it positively malignant.
Rebecca Watson: Asked what DuPont does (where her father worked): "they make chemicals and destroy the planet" link 1 min 20 s mark.
This "woman" is clueless about science. And she asks for scientific credibilty? She needs to grow up a little and learn where her privilege came from.
Complete asshole and total bitch get into hissing match in blog comments... film at 11.
@chickenlittle: Muchas gracias for the link.
This chick is total Lucius honeytrap. I am a sick sick man.
I think I may have to ask myself if I'd like to have some coffee and watch this in my room.
Lucius said...This chick is total Lucius honeytrap. I am a sick sick man.
She's big and flouncy...i'll give you that.
chickenlittle said: "She's big and flouncy... i'll give you that."
You've been reading my mail . . . !
I'll blog about the next time someone is rude to me. Or when someone doesn't tip. And I'll tie it into how this shows society has become a caste system that oppresses me.
What? 85 comments and no one has noticed that the photo at the top of the Atlantic article was taken by David Shankbone.
brownchickenbrowncow...
But seriously, this is one of those arguments a white male cannot win, because all of our comments are tainted by "white male privilege". I will admit, the concept confuses me, since I am wrapped in the miasma of privilege. That said, I'm painfully shy. I don't think I could work up the balls to ask a woman to come back to my hotel room without breaking into a flop sweat.
"You don't get that because you've never been called a cunt, a faggot, a nigger, a kike." Oh really, so you feminazis have never called a conservative male any names? So the terms homophobe, redneck, cracka, gringo, fundamentalist, stuffed shirt, jingoist, bible thumper, etc. have never been used to refer to a conservative white male? Get off your soap box baby and grow a pair.
As an aside, I have always contended that the feminist movement has been hypocritical from the beginning. They wanted women to have the same sexual freedoms as men, i.e. to have sex anytime they want without the consequences (why else would we need the pill).
And so now that women have that freedom what is the natural outcome? Men think that women want it just as much as they do, so they hit on women, like Crack Emcee does, thinking women like that kind of thing.
But guess what, the feminist don't like it, they want the sexual freedom to get it when they want, but they want men to "respect" them. Guess what ladies, feminism took away any respect we women could demand from men.
I blame the whole thing on feminists. Whine all you want, you brought this all on yourself.
And before you get your panties in a bind, I have my sexual organs on the inside like you. You only get respect when you deserve it. Your problems are nothing compared to the Muslim woman, so get over yourself already.
And thanks for taking all women down with you into your slime pit.
Crack is right about being direct. Obviously the degree of directness depends on the context and (to some extent) how many drinks she has had, but you would be surprised. I tried that Alan Alda sensitivity crap, it doesn't work. If she wanted a woman, she would be in a lesbian bar. When I stopped caring about being embarassed by rejection I found I was rejected a lot less. And it is not about lying or some seduction thing, it is about being yourself and being honest.
And Rebecca on the elevator is a head case. Seriously elevator guy, work on your delivery but she did you a favor.
But hey, I have been married for a long while and I have not cheated (nor do I think my wife has). I am not saying I have not been tempted, or that marriage is easy, but for me it has been worth it.
Imagine that, Rebecca has "daddy issues." Life is too short to waste on someone like that. Move on.
Feminism and atheism are not compatible in that way.
If you believe in the Neo-Darwin synthesis, then you must conclude that you are first and foremost a sex object. That's how you got here, and that is the object of your existence.
Her mind, her personality, everything about her that she thinks is unique and valuable is piled on top of her gonads, window dressing for the reproductive function.
Deal with it, cupcake.
Maybe the elevator guy should have invited her to his room to iron his shirt for the next day of the conference?
Use the wife/daughter test. If it was your wife/daughter, and she got off the elevator and pointed out the guy and told you what he said, would you lecture her on how privileged she is not to suffer the abuses women under the Religion of Peace do or would you go stomp the creep's ass into the carpet?
You're a thug.
It's fascinating to watch atheists fight about morality.
So Chickenlittle, your link makes me imagine how carpooluk got Rebecca Watson to agree to ride in his interview car. He must have simply asked her, "Would you like to be interviewed while riding with me in my car?"
Chauvinist swine!
I'd call Rebecca Watson a fucking idiot, but I suspect she's just an idiot.
So on one side we have a hysterical feminist who considers bad flirtation a horrible sin, and on the other side we have a man who is fine with banning Christians from teaching and opposes telling children fairy tales.
I think I'm going to take the Kissinger approach on this one.
Just like the mainstream media is the media arm of the Democratic party, feminism is the women's auxilliary of the Democratic party.
would you go stomp the creep's ass into the carpet?
For asking her for coffee and taking it fine when she said no? Major overkill. I think you would have to beat up half the world if that were your standard...
Love in an elevator
Livin' it up when I'm goin' down
Love in an elevator
Lovin' it up 'til I hit the ground
Jacki's in the elevator
Lingerie second floor
She said 'Can I see you later
And love you just a little more?'
I kinda hope we get stuck
nobody gets out alive
She said 'I'll show ya how to fax in the mailroom honey
and have you home by five'
Guess she's not an Aerosmith fan
Nature abhors a vacuum. Dawkins got sucked in to try to fill a void.
I'm no fan of Dawkins. But it's a shame to waste a mind.
I study witch trials, and the standard source of accusations in such trials is the perception of words or actions by the accuser. A pretty common case is that someone gets ill and then looks back at a person who he/she already considers suspicious and then attributes his/her misfortune that that person's words or gestures.
In some cases the illnesses or misfortunes suffered are genuine, but reading through hundreds of cases, I've noticed that many the kinds of "illnesses" caused by witches, based on the symptoms, sound a great deal like the physical signs of panic attacks.
Feminists have revived the logic of witchhunting. It is not the actual harm done, but the perception of bad intent that matters, whether that is proven or not. And when all else fails, the "malefactor" is placed within the context of a cosmic pattern of evil -- the great Satanic conspiracy or the great Masculinist/Patriarcal/Cissexualist conspiracy -- and therefore deemed guilty.
We seem to be slipping further and further into the dangerous ground of judging people to be criminal because others perceive them to be evil by definition.
"The feminists should withold sex until he shapes up."--rhhardin
Oh God I HOPE so!....for ALL our sake's...would that they withold sex from everyone FOREVER!
@Lucius
The historian Paul Johnson made a similar point in his book "A History of the American People".
He argued that the Puritans of Massachusetts believed in individual conscience and public order, combining these principles with civil authority to police personal virtue and create institutions for public improvement.
This tradition repeatedly appears throughout American history in the form of the witch hunt.
First, in Salem, about 'real witches', later in the treatment of abolitionists and communists, as well as the temperance movement.
The "recovered memory" witch-hunts, the Duke lacrosse team trial, Tawana Brawley-type hoaxes, and other cases follow that format.
And now the PC/cultural diversity/feminism/gay agenda melange repeats the Puritan effort on a national scale.
Crack Emcee rightly points out the New Age connection in these events, but I suspect that New Age itself is the modern form of American Puritanism.
Amanda Marcotte leaps into the fray and takes no prisoners. She knows what Elevator Boy was up to:
In sum, men who corner women know what they’re doing. And yes, they are relying on the fear of rape to grease the wheels towards getting laid. . . . It also strikes me, in my dealing with geek culture, that there’s a taboo against rejecting someone, and creepy dudes also are happy to exploit that, knowing that women who reject them will be condemned for violating the “don’t be judgmental” rule.
Amanda, you never disapoint.
Amanda: they are relying on the fear of rape to grease the wheels towards getting laid
Huh?
Women can be intimidated into spreading their legs?
Maybe thats why they have been dominated for 4,400,000 years. They are such fragile creatures.
Amanda does not forget Ann or Dr. Helen:
And I also know, being a feminist for many years now, that whenever a bunch of dudes start freaking out on a woman who called out some egregious sexism, there are a bunch of women willing to back those dudes up in order to get that coveted male approval and attention. I call this move Pulling An Althouse. Or Dr. Helen, if you prefer. Or maybe just call them Sister Punishers.
H/T to The Other McCain for checking Pandagon for this reaction.
they are relying on the fear of rape to grease the wheels towards getting laid
And an unfortunate choice of words by Amanda. She's a writer? Because she just insinuated that the prospect of rape gets women all wet and slippery. I don't think that was her intent.
Robert Stacy McCain sums it up best: All in all, it’s rather ironic that the atheist Watson ended up a devotee of feminism, the most intolerant religion of them all.
Don't take this wrong, but I think she's pretty. But I don't like weak women; I prefer strong ones who could beat me up, like my wife (she studies karate and has demonstrated it on me).
Amanda: there are a bunch of women willing to back those dudes up in order to get that coveted male approval and attention. I call this move Pulling An Althouse. Or Dr. Helen, if you prefer
Amanda, you're projecting.
The issue was Valenti "willing to back those dudes in order to get that coveted male approval and attention". The "feminist" adopted a Monica-wanna-be pose and dress to get the attentions of sexual predator Bill Clinton. Feminists like Marcotte and Valenti sold feminism out, got down on their hands and knees and swallowed, in exchange for a veto of a partial-birth abortion ban.
Pulling a Valenti.
If feminists still believe that rape is about power, not sex, it's unclear how this guy's expression of interest in consensual sex would add any element of threat that wasn't already present. Was his real offense being in the womyn's elevator in the first place?
In related news, Al Sharpton will pose under the confedarate flag with David Duke, to thank him for all he has done for the civil rights movement.
Was his real offense being in the womyn's elevator in the first place?
His real offense was being male.
Jeez, so are we back to the "all sex is rape" crap again?
I can't keep up with the daily changes in the belief system.
Is it like posted somewhere?
Do I need the Womyn's Decoder Ring, or will it just tell me to drink more Ovaltine?
It will say:
"Ask again tomorrow"
Ha!
The Womyn's Magic Eight Ball!
I briefly skimmed the comments on "Skepchick" and was surprised that apparently no one has suggested that this never happened.
Seems too convenient a "teaching moment," don't ya think?
At least throwing out the race card has become a joke. Feminists, unfortunately, have a hard time getting the nuance of pick up lines or jokes. I think they have a learning disability like dyslexia when it comes to those topics.
Seems too convenient a "teaching moment," don't ya think?
Good point.
I found the comments of these supposed skeptical, rational, critical thinkers illuminating. For example, at the Bad Astronomy blog we learn that being alone with a woman on an elevator late at night and asking her to your room is a potential sexual assault.
Perhaps the problem is exaggerated rape statistics and irrational fear.
WOW!
Skipping to the end without reading all of the wonderful and glittering comments above.
First of all, how drunk was that guy who supposedly 'hit on' or propositioned Watson. Seriously?
Second: She obviously has never been propositioned and it freaked her out. Get a clue sister. It is a compliment in some ways and if you don't like it...learn how to nicely deflect with humor (my method of choice). Show him the pistol in your purse. Knee him in the groin.... Or as Dawkins said. Simply get off the freaking elevator.
Third: We DO get to make comparisons in the treatment of women and the proportionality of response. Whether Watson or other feminists like it or not.
Personally I think she comes off as a whiny self centered bitch with a trivial complaint compared to what other people and women have to deal with.
Boo hoo. A man made a pass at me in an elevator: I'll make a federal case out of it.
After reading a lot more comments at those other sites, I've learned that there are a lot more women out there than I would have expected who can't grasp one simple idea: that someone could understand perfectly well what they're saying, but still not agree.
And yes, they are relying on the fear of rape to grease the wheels towards getting laid. . . .
Wait, is she actually saying that being creeped out by someone (like in an elevator) makes a person more likely to voluntarily have sex with them? What the hell kind of sense does that make?
The opposite is true for normal women, weirdo.
"Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting, and I would like to talk more. Would you like to come to my hotel room for coffee?"
If men didn't say stuff like that once in a while, none of us would be here.
windbag --
"Use the wife/daughter test."
Right after I think of the children.
Militant Atheists and Militant Feminists.
Match made in heaven. They deserve each-other.
(And I say this as someone who's never believed in God, and who's always thought men and women were essentially equals.
But I've never been able to stand people who define themselves by their atheism or their feminism...)
"The elevator guy doesn't know the first thing about hitting on women."
The elevator girl doesn't know the first thing about being hit on, either.
"this person who I always admired for his intelligence and compassion does not care about my experience as an atheist woman..."
What a prig, a lecture to the poor women (like some righteous pastor) on how other women have it worse, instead of sympathy for her bad experience. Next time, show a little Christian compassion, sir!
with injustices like the Japanese internment ? Japanese males grew in the USA until 10 yo. Then went to japan to end their education and military traing before coming to the USA to act as fith column. There was no injustice in treating them as they were ememies of the USA. They attacked Pearl Harbor in a coward way and knowing they had no chance to win.
Injustices? Nankim 300 000 chineses killed. Bantam 70 k killed. After being tortured. The japanese internation camp were worst than nazis concentration camp.
The crew of George Bush was eaten.
Wait, is she actually saying that being creeped out by someone (like in an elevator) makes a person more likely to voluntarily have sex with them? What the hell kind of sense does that make?
To be fair, the "surrender your principles, submit to my desires or I will limit abortion" line seems to work well on feminists. Maybe thats what Amanda is talking about.
"Suck harder baby or I'll defund Planned Parenthood"
Amanda: "mmbblppph!!"
I absolutely get that a person might feel tense and vulnerable in an elevator. After all, the biggest reason people fear driving on the freeway is the feeling of being trapped. Elevators trap you until the door opens. They require you to stand inside the limits of our cultural sense of personal space.
That said...
A reasonably intelligent and reflective person ought to be self-aware enough to separate or at least identify the source of irrational reactions.
Accepting the validity of a person's feelings in no way requires accepting the validity of their *explanation* of why they reacted the way they did. Gloaming on to the favored theory of female victimhood is weak and pathetic.
You're standing in a small metal box with a door that will not open. The End.
stupid redneck, you don't get that because you've never been called a cunt, a faggot, a n*gger, a kike.
Wait, I have been called a kike and a nigger. Not at the same time, though. When I do have the unfortunate experience of dealing with bigots, I call a spade a spade (or more likely, I call an anti-semite a Jew hater).
I think it was Golda Meir who said that you only are intimidated when you let people intimidate you.
i guess both Dawkins nad the poor sight man have children while she does not. So there will be naother generation of them but not of women unable to "defend" themselves
Show him the pistol in your purse. Knee him in the groin.... You are worst than here. He did not attacked her in anyway.
Pogo -- I think you do the Puritans a disservice.
The thing that cracks me up about this is--everyone knows damned well if this were some Republican woman in the exact same situation and it were a black who made the invitation, the left would be ridiculing her for her fear of the big bad black man etc. and so on.
You could repent. Moreover, you could ask God for eternal forgiveness through applying the death and resurrection of Jesus to your life of sin within the quietness of your bedroom tonight. As an unrepentant sinner myself, I made this decision around 15 years ago. This is the most important decision that you will ever make.
- Romans 10:9-10
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