A very interesting article by Christian Schneider at The National Review:
The week before the legislature was set to re-pass the collective-bargaining provision, three of the four conservative justices were ready to issue a ruling reinstating the union law as originally passed. Prosser, on the other hand, wanted to wait longer, to avoid the appearance that the court was rushing their decision through. Prosser thought he had an agreement with liberal Chief Justice Shirley Abrahamson to delay release of the opinion until Tuesday of the following week.
As Monday arrived, there was no word from Abrahamson on whether the decision would be issued the next day. At 5:30 p.m., Prosser and the other conservative justices marched around the chambers, looking for Abrahamson, who was found in Justice Bradley’s office. Prosser stood outside Bradley’s door, talking to the justices in Bradley’s office. The discussion got heated, with Prosser expressing his lack of faith in Abrahamson’s ability to lead the Court.
That sounds like Schneider interviewed Prosser, but we're only told that he had "multiple sources with first-hand knowledge."
According to one witness, Bradley charged toward Prosser, shaking her clenched fist in his face. Another source says they were “literally nose to nose.” Prosser then put his hands up to push her away. As one source pointed out, if a man wants to push a woman who is facing him, he wouldn’t push her in the chest (unless he wants to face an entirely different criminal charge). Consequently, Prosser put his hands on Bradley’s shoulders to push her away, and in doing so, made contact with her neck.
At that moment, another justice approached Bradley from behind and pulled her away from Prosser, saying, “Stop it, Ann, this isn’t like you.” Bradley then shouted, “I was choked!” Another justice present replied, “You were not choked.” In a statement following the incident, Bradley maintained Prosser “put his hands around my neck in anger in a chokehold.”
On Monday night, Bradley called Capitol Police Chief Charles Tubbs to talk to him about the incident. On the morning of Wednesday, June 15, Tubbs joined the justices in a closed-door meeting, where he discussed “issues relating to workplace violence.”
During the meeting, Chief Justice Abrahamson actually reenacted the incident on Chief Tubbs... During her demonstration, Abrahamson emphasized that Prosser had exerted “pressure” on Bradley’s throat.
“There was no pressure,” interrupted the justice who had initially broken up the incident between Bradley and Prosser. “That’s only because you broke us apart,” shot back Bradley. This exchange led several meeting attendees to believe Bradley was making up the charge, as they took her rejoinder as an admission that there was no pressure applied to her neck.
Indeed, if we believe Bradley said "That’s only because you broke us apart" when someone pulled her back from behind, it would seem that the "pressure" that would have occurred but didn't would have been the result of her forward movement toward Prosser. That's the evidence a criminal defense lawyer would milk if there were an actual trial here.
During the Wednesday meeting, Bradley urged the justices present to take a vote on whether Prosser should be forced into anger-management counseling. The threat was implicit — if they didn’t vote her way, she would be forced to “take the next step” against Prosser, which they took to mean filing a restraining order against him. The other justices balked, wondering whether they even had the authority to order Prosser into any type of counseling. Some thought it would be “demeaning” to Prosser to have to go to counseling when he had done nothing wrong. In the end, Bradley realized she didn’t have enough justices on her side and no vote was taken.
Bizarre. What an immense breakdown of collegiality! And given this horrible, complicated incident, why did anyone choose to incur the damage to the court's reputation by dumping it into the press? As Schneider notes, if Bradley had initiated any kind of formal criminal procedure, Prosser would have had procedural protections. Instead, "the story was leaked to the George Soros–funded Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism, who used three anonymous sources to back up Bradley’s story." Who were the 3 sources? We don't know whether all (or any) of the 3 sources were eyewitnesses, but if they were, it's hard not to conclude that they were Bradley and Abrahamson. There would still need to be one more source antagonistic to Prosser. Maybe all the sources were court personnel who heard about it second hand, and the Center for Investigative Journalism based its story entirely on hearsay. I
hope so.
258 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 258 of 258VetHusbandFather - your attempt to slime Prosser is failing.
How have I tried to slime him? I'm in complete support of Prosser. And have already mentioned that Bradley is 95% to blame (which I actually quoted MnMark on). I simply disagree with the argument that Prosser is blameless.
VetHusbandFather --
"2)I haven't been trying to make Prosser look bad, I'm just not willing to dismiss him from blame until all the facts are in."
Oh yes you have, hence the 'bigger man' crap.
"3)Name calling helps every argument."
And, as demonstrated, pedantry does no better.
Yeah, you know, hold up your hands to stop a charge that then pushes itself against your hands. Passive.
Passive: not involving visible reaction or active participation. Raising your arms is not passive. Defensive maybe but not passive. I was merely pointing out the irony of the comment.
I simply disagree with the argument that Prosser is blameless
This is true. He probably said "Nanny nanny boo boo" at her or farted in her general direction or something.
Maybe they should all be equiped with Super Soakers so that they don't have to resort to physical contact. Nothing quite as fun and tension relieving as a naked Super Soaker fight. Don't ask....just trust me.
Most commenters have no empathy for our feminazis, Shirl and Ann, who are obviously suffering Weiner withdrawal syndrome. If YOU were a secret twit of Weiner's like S/A you'd know. Either that or just one more proof of the disease wrought by passage of the 19th Amendment.
I called you a simpleton because every one of your points could be rebuffed by a slightly-slower-than-normal fifth grader. That you believe you are being somehow persuasive is further evidence of you simplicity.
But, hey, since we're playing the blame game, maybe I'm 9% responsible, you're 7% responsible. Prosser is 5% responsible and the shrieking harridan who bumrushed Prosser is only 79% responsible. Does that help you any?
Oh yes you have, hence the 'bigger man' crap.
What can I say, I am disappointed in his actions. And was trying to express that, NOT trying to make him look bad. When you are a public figure you do have to watch your image, and I think he has been irresponsible in that regard.
And, as demonstrated, pedantry does no better.
Agreed. I apologize for any offense.
HE did it!!!
No, SHE started it!!!
NOOOOOOO! HE TOUCHED me!!!!
SHE touched me FIRST!!!!
I remember THIS when my kids were at THAT age...
Passive: not involving visible reaction or active participation. Raising your arms is not passive. Defensive maybe but not passive.
So not being utterly passive is a huge crime worthy of the gas chamber.
VHF - so in Prosser's situation you would have done the duck & roll? That's a lot to ask of an elderly man.
VetHusbandFather --
"Passive: not involving visible reaction or active participation. Raising your arms is not passive. Defensive maybe but not passive. I was merely pointing out the irony of the comment."
*Breathing* is not passive either in that sense.
I iterate my point about pedantry. We're talking about responding to a physical assault.
You just slammed into that wall I spoke of.
VHF - so in Prosser's situation you would have done the duck & roll? That's a lot to ask of an elderly man
I hate to say what he 'should' have done, because I wasn't there in his shoes at that time.
However, I have been in a similar situation: Another man charged at me and yelled in my face, only inches away. He was clearly trying to pick a fight with me over a girl. I stood there, let him yell, then calmly told him I was sorry that he felt that way, and meant him no harm. He didn't really know how to react, and oddly asked to shake my hand and left. Long story short, no fight, and now I'm married to that woman. Did I do the more responsible thing in that situation? I think so.
VHF - maybe Prosser though Bradley was about to punch him and made a defensive reaction. He's not a macho stud like you...
You just slammed into that wall I spoke of.
Not to be pedantic but that comment was made only 2 seconds after your pedantry comment. I hadn't read it yet. It was also a response to someone who apparently misunderstood that I was trying to point out the irony of the statement 'Passively' Rasing your hands.
Blocking is not aggressive. You claimed he was aggressive.
So Prosser stiff-armed her? So what, if you engage in attack you deserve it.
VetHusbandFather --
"Not to be pedantic but that comment was made only 2 seconds after your pedantry comment. I hadn't read it yet."
Doesn't matter *when* you slam into the wall or *why*; you slammed into the wall.
Your pedantry has you now trying like all hell to describe a non-aggressive defensive move as not passive. Keep in mind, Aikido is called the passive martial art.
It's called context.
Blocking is not aggressive. You claimed he was aggressive.
"Consequently, Prosser put his hands on Bradley’s shoulders to push her away, and in doing so, made contact with her neck."
The article we are discussing suggest that he put his hands on her shoulders to push her away. Obviously that is just one account, but it seems to be a pretty neutral description of how things went down.
VetHusbandFather said...
I think you mixed up your story. Let me write what you clearly meant to write.
However, I have been in a similar situation: Another man charged at me and thrust his fists in my face, only inches away. He was clearly trying to pick a fight with me over a girl. I stood there, let him punch me, then calmly told him I was sorry that he felt that way, and meant him no harm. He didn't really know how to react, and oddly asked to shake my hand and left. Long story short, I didn't fight back, and now I'm married to that woman. Did I do the more responsible thing in that situation? I think so.
If that's not how it happened, then your story isn't analogous. And I seriously doubt you would have let him punch you in the face to prove how responsible you were. But that's the standard you want Justice Prosser to live up to.
VetHusbandFather said...
The article we are discussing suggest that he put his hands on her shoulders to push her away.
Yes. To block her. To stop her attacks without attacking in response. That's not aggressive, that's defensive.
DodgerWifeMom is full of shit, end of story.
Martin,
From the article: "According to one witness, Bradley charged toward Prosser, shaking her clenched fist in his face. Another source says they were “literally nose to nose.” Prosser then put his hands up to push her away"
That's actually much closer to my story than yours.
"However, I have been in a similar situation: Another man charged at me and yelled in my face, only inches away..."
That's a stabbing.
garage mahal wrote:
If Abrahmanson can't keep Prosser from strangling other justices she must go!
Well, yes. It's her duty to prevent and forestall that sort of thing, isn't it? To maintain collegiality and all that?
If she can't do her job, she should go.
Ah, but as a lefty you don't view competence as a qualification for holding office.
VetHusbandFather said...
That's actually much closer to my story than yours.
No, that's exactly what I said. He pushed her back to block her attacks. That's a defensive move. A dumb move, but a defensive move. Holding someone back at arm's length is a common defense for people who don't know better defenses.
Lincolntf --
"DodgerWifeMom is full of shit, end of story."
Dude, too far. He's hanging himself, you don't need to do that.
"That's actually much closer to my story than yours."
"No, that's exactly what I said."
"New Shimmer is a floor wax!"
"No, new Shimmer is a dessert topping!"
"Stop! You're both right!"
Yes. To block her. To stop her attacks without attacking in response. That's not aggressive, that's defensive.
Read the whole context:
"According to one witness, Bradley charged toward Prosser, shaking her clenched fist in his face. Another source says they were “literally nose to nose.” Prosser then put his hands up to push her away"
If she was already there yelling in her face then he was being aggressive (albeit for a defensive purpose). If she was coming at him and he pushed her away then he was being purely defensive. There is a grey area there, and my point is if he had reacted differently there would be no grey area for Bradley to attempt to exploit.
That's a defensive move. A dumb move, but a defensive move. Holding someone back at arm's length is a common defense for people who don't know better defenses.
Is this not what I've been trying to say the whole time... She's to blame. But he could have handled the situation better. Good Grief!
VetHusbandFather said...
Oh yes you have, hence the 'bigger man' crap.
What can I say, I am disappointed in his actions. And was trying to express that, NOT trying to make him look bad. When you are a public figure you do have to watch your image, and I think he has been irresponsible in that regard.
===================
Funny, I saw an incident where 4 cops in two squad cars were arresting some guy. His homies were raising hell, and a black cop pushed a female companion back with outstretched arm on her collarbone and used leg power to push her back a few feet. When she angrily rushed him again, he pushed her back and said quite clearly "You try it again, you dumb bitch, I will throw you on the ground, cuff you and charge you with interfering with an arrest. Now Back Off!!"
People have already pointed out how dumb your advice is to "just walk away" from someone RUSHING at you, fists up.
So too your opinion that just by being an elderly dignified man, you are "diminished in image" if someone decided to rush you in anger - be it a female Justice, a subordinate employee, or a belligerant drunk in a bar. For aggressive reasons entirely outside your control.
And a self-defense reaction to raise arms to ward off a possible blow is natural, instinctive, hard-wired in most normal people. The law takes these natural self defense reactions into full account in law. It is only when liberals run school systems or such that we get the "both sides are equally at fault for the fight" - both attacker AND defender - crap.
I actually did use a passive defense once long ago. I was walking along the sidewalk near Fenway Park with my wife when the ball game was letting out. A group of young men were approaching from the opposite direction, possibly drunk, most likely local college students. I noticed one who was staring directly at me. I had the feeling he was going to shoulder strike me as a prelude to starting a fight. Just at the moment he was moving to swing his shoulder into me I pivoted and twisted out of the way. He was trying to bump me so hard that when he hit air he lost his balance and fell on his face.
Man, that must have hurt. It was difficult holding back my laughter, but my wife and I quickly walked on. There was no followup from my erstwhile assailant.
VetHusbandFather --
I only caught the part where you said the instigator of the aggressive episode was partially to blame.
This is morphing into something like the Weiner scandal. If the scrawny perv had just come out and said he messed up and was sorry-it won't happen again - I apologize to my wife and constituents!! Weiner would still be in office. His downfall was never about "poor Huma's feelings" or being a perv in a progressive NYC neighborhood full of pervs - it was the lies and false accusations that doomed him.
But he lied to the media and the public. And made false accusations against parties he knew were innocent, backing up lies with being aggressive.
If anything, the leeway to publicly lie and make false accusations is even less for a sitting Supreme Court Justice than a sitting Congressman.
It threatens to undermine the credibility of the courts and the public perception of a Justice or two as out of control vindictive females. Who harm the system.
I expect the Wisconsin Judicial Commission will look at this quite seriously and have to make a report that could well end a career or two. Not on stupid criminal law charges...but lies that threaten to undermine the Bar and respect for the courts.
I think if not only Bradley lied, but Abrahamson did - they are both in real hot water.
Cedarford,
I'm just trying to say that your description of the events are not in line with the article posted let alone with any claims Prosser has made. There is no claim that he blocked her attacks mid-rush, or that he was about to be hit. The claim is that she rushed him, she waved her fist in his face, they were nose to nose, and he put his hands on her shoulders to push her back. If the events went down the way you claim, and he needed to block her mid-stride, then I don't blame him. But until anyone makes that claim, I'm not willing to say Prosser is blameless.
VetHusbandFather said...
That's a defensive move. A dumb move, but a defensive move. Holding someone back at arm's length is a common defense for people who don't know better defenses.
Is this not what I've been trying to say the whole time... She's to blame. But he could have handled the situation better. Good Grief!
It's not a dumb move because "OH MY GOD, HE TOUCHED HER! NEVER TOUCH A WOMAN! NOW HE'S 5% AT FAULT!" It's a dumb move because it's a particularly ineffective defense. Only someone who knows nothing about hand to hand will be stopped by it, so only someone who knows nothing about hand to hand will use it in a serious fight.
If the facts are as written here -- she rushed him, he held her back or perhaps pushed her back -- then she's 100% at fault, and he's 0%.
Another time (also long ago) some drunk guy elbowed me in the back while I was in line to board a bus at Haymarket. I informed the fellow that I didn't appreciate it. He rushed up to me and got in my face all Bradleyesque. I smashed his face with three or four straight punches. He slammed to the ground like a fallen oak. He never knew what hit him.
Martin,
You are assuming that he held her back while she was rushing at him.
According to one witness, Bradley charged toward Prosser, shaking her clenched fist in his face. Another source says they were “literally nose to nose.” Prosser then put his hands up to push her away.
It doesn't say whether he put her hands up during or after the rush. Or maybe it all happened so quickly that its hard to tell. My point is that its not a cut and clear stop the charging crazy lady. And may have been a get the crazy lady out of my face. If its the ladder then I'd say he's a bit to blame.
Actual reporting. I wondered when someone would get around to it, But of course it couldn't be MSM. All the news that fits the ideology.
Alex,
I can't believe ya'll letting garage get away with his lie/smear. You people are fucking shameless.
I'm not.
I've learned that Garage is a dishonest leftist, so I don't bother engaging him.
"Just Walk On By".
As for Prosser's defensive move, he probably just reacted instinctively, putting his hands up without a lot of thinking about how his actions would be dissected on Althouse's blog.
Passive? Aggressive? Passive-aggressive?
For an assailant rushing directly at me, I prefer a front leg side kick.
What this latest report is that the chief justice is a liar who needs to resign. Abrahamson can in no way be impartial if she's willing to lie to back up the violent Bradley in her claim that she was choked, when Bradley herself says that no pressure was exerted because she was evidently pulled back from Prosser.
Neither Abrahamson nor Bradley should be on the S.Ct. They've brought the WI judiciary into disrepute because of their political bias which resulted in their dishonesty.
VHF, you are expecting Prosser to act like a younger and physically larger man. Prosser is a shrimp, and an old shrimp, too. The normal human reaction when you are rushed is to put your hands up in a defensive move. Remember, Bradley is bigger than Prosser, and he is likely of the old school that a man does not strike a woman. Therefore, all he could do is defend himself and minimize the hits by putting up his hands. Defense is not offense. Putting up your hands prevent harm to you, maybe. Bradley is clearly lying, as is Abrahamson. Why blame Prosser for raising his hands in a passive move? That defensive move is passive. Had he been active, he would have slugged Bradley, but he did not.
Juba Doobai,
We don't have all the facts to conclusively say that's how things went down.
Your assumption seems to be:
He put his hands up to shield himself and they happened to end up near her neck.
I suggest:
He intentionally put his hands on her shoulders in order to hold her back (a more aggressive defensive maneuver) and she claimed he choked her.
Either way she still the main aggressor and him the defender. Both scenarios are supported by the descriptions of this article. In my scenario he's still clean, just not squeaky clean.
NOBODY arguing here was there. That makes this a pissing contest, fueled by a pissing contest.
What makes things worse is the MSM slant that assumes Prosser was the aggressor. Predictable.
With the obligatory strawmen thrown in by those that THINK they know what happened.
In other words, following the lead of the likes of garage, et al.
Mariner has it right.
I simply disagree with the argument that Prosser is blameless.
I'm sure he's not.
From every version I've heard, it sounds to me like both parties are to blame.
Self-defense is the "she started it" argument. Doesn't work for kids. Doesn't work for adults very often, either.
So, yes, both parties are to blame for the initial incident.
And the Chief Justice is really to blame for letting her workplace get so antagonistic and poisonous.
What's really bad is not any incidental contact. What's bad is going to the press and attempting to destroy somebody's career. This is particularly evil after the police found no wrongdoing.
It was stupid to call the police. But she did. Okay. The police investigate, talk to the witnesses, look for signs of an assault. The police find nothing criminal.
I think the investigation should not be in regard to who pushed who in some non-criminal heated exchange.
The investigation should be in regard to who attempted to destroy Justice Prosser by claiming that he strangled a fellow Justice in chambers.
I can easily forgive somebody losing their temper. It's the attempt to anonymously destroy somebody's career that is really malign.
@WineSlob | 6/28/11 4:36 PM
". . .
Not to mention the fact that Kloppenburg wears those choker scarves, which apply pressure to her throat, causing her to speak like Georgette on Mary Tyler Moore, and giving her both the means and the motive to coach Walsh-Bradley into telling Leuders that she, Walsh-Bradley, had pressure applied to her throat . . .
It all fits."
YES, WineSlob! YES! How could I have possibly missed the connection to those choker scarfs when I posted my comment?
And, as you have noted, the Georgette (main squeeze of Ted Baxter) connection.
I mean Kloppy practically turned them into a national fashion statement for up and coming judicial aspirants, as well as more traditional Georgette wanna-be fans!
The smoking gun!
Saint Croix,
I totally agree. The least responsible part of this thing was involving the police/press. Both of which seem to have occurred thanks to Bradley and Abrahamson.
Gutless for the win!
"The least responsible part of this thing was involving the police/press."
No, the least responsible thing was attacking a fellow Justice, but you are determined to pretend otherwise. So, are you Stupid or Evil? Gotta be one or the other.
The liberal processor is definitely faster than the conservative processor, thereby prone to error.
//fixed
There are two significant issues that I believe have not been adequately addressed yet, and which, although not dispositive, certainly weigh heavily in favor of Justice Prosser:
Issue 1) Who really had a reason to be so angry as to act aggressively?
Answer: not Prosser. His side won, he was in the majority, he had won the election. What did he have to be angry about? Nothing. Bradley, on the other hand, had a litany of reasons to be angry - in the minority, losing an emotional case, lost election of a comrage that would have swung the court.
Issue 2) What of this agreement between Abrahamson and Prosser? I've heard no one deny it existed. So, there should have been a ruling issued on the 13th. The fact that none was issued by 5:30 seems to indicate that Abrahamson lied to Prosser and never intended to issue the opinion. Perhaps she was attempting to force a confrontation? Whatever the reason, if she agreed to issue the opinion and did not, she was acting in bad faith.
There are two significant issues that I believe have not been adequately addressed yet, and which, although not dispositive, certainly weigh heavily in favor of Justice Prosser:
Issue 1) Who really had a reason to be so angry as to act aggressively?
Answer: not Prosser. His side won, he was in the majority, he had won the election. What did he have to be angry about? Nothing. Bradley, on the other hand, had a litany of reasons to be angry - in the minority, losing an emotional case, lost election of a comrage that would have swung the court.
Issue 2) What of this agreement between Abrahamson and Prosser? I've heard no one deny it existed. So, there should have been a ruling issued on the 13th. The fact that none was issued by 5:30 seems to indicate that Abrahamson lied to Prosser and never intended to issue the opinion. Perhaps she was attempting to force a confrontation? Whatever the reason, if she agreed to issue the opinion and did not, she was acting in bad faith.
I suppose that at this late date, a "beer summit" is entirely out of the question?
When I was a middle school teacher, we were told by experienced teachers, not to stop a fight too soon. Let both throw a few punches and then suspend both troublemakers and get a few days relief in the classroom while they are gone. This seems like middle school stuff.
" Let both throw a few punches and then suspend both troublemakers.."
Ahh, the good old days. When I was in high school (private, so they had latitude) they would just throw us both in the racquetball court to fight until someone got hurt or just plain lost. Good times.
Do any of your liberals know how to act like adults?
If this is what Progressive means, we should all run, not walk, away from it. These people have no respect for elections.
"During the Wednesday meeting, Bradley urged the justices present to take a vote on whether Prosser should be forced into anger-management counseling. The threat was implicit — if they didn’t vote her way, she would be forced to “take the next step” against Prosser, which they took to mean filing a restraining order against him."
Ann .... if accurate, Bradley's conduct came awfully close to what we'd consider extortion here in Florida .... what about Wisconsin?
"you weren't raped.'
"only because you were here in my office!"'
"you weren't shot."
"only because he didn't have a gun!"
"no one's calling you an idiot"
"only because I have the press to protect me!"
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