Trump gets results. So... is there anything surprising on it to suggest why this controversy wasn't nipped in the bud?
ADDED: See it and marvel!!!
AND: So it says "Certificate of Live Birth" at the top. Is this still the "short form" and not the "long form" that the "birthers" say they want?
ALSO: This is — according to the NYT — the "long form."
“Over the last two and a half years, I have watched with bemusement,” [Obama] said in brief remarks. “I’ve been puzzled by the degree to which this thing just kept on going.”Extra points to Obama for correct use of (a form of) the frequently misused word "bemused."
Mr. Obama said there would be a “segment of people for which, no matter what we put out, this issue will not be put to rest.” But he said that he was “speaking to the vast majority of the American people as well as to the press. We do not have time for this kind of silliness.”
AND: Let me answer my own question. I'd say, the reason Obama did not release the long-form birth certificate before is that he thought it was to his advantage to allow other people to look bad or crazy in one way or another by going on in the birtherist mode. But there was a tipping point, as Trump got traction and polls showed huge numbers of Americans entertaining doubts. So, it was all political strategy. You could criticize Obama for wasting our time by not just releasing the damned thing earlier. But he could have thought it was demeaning to have to do this, so I'm inclined to give him a pass.
Posts
609 comments:
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You know what, Edutcher? I think you're right. I'll demur from my point. "African" may be plausible given my "argue with bureaucrats" scenario, but unlikely.
Yes, "African" is odd. But not odd enough for me to question the long-form's validity (not that I'm implying you are, of course!).
All Hail the Anti-Birthers
The Gold, Frankincense and Mirthers
They Believe in Barak
And That Global Warming Crock
Society's Modern Day Flat-Earthers
DBQ and others are right. When is the left going to realize that, as misguided and stupid this whole birtherism thing is, it wasn't driven by race? Who all are really the race sensitive ones here? Seems to me it's the first people to bring race into this. What I kept hearing was birth certificates and origin of birth; that could've equally applied to a Brit or German.
Call birthers what you want, and I'm right with you, but stop projecting your own fantasies onto them. That, too, is not reason-based thinking, and is every bit as stupid as the birther stuff.
"As a junior senator, do you honestly think you've earned the leadership capacity and skills necessary for leading the entire country during these turbulent wartimes and with our precipitously in-danger economy?"
From Barrys own dazzling mouth....
Barack Obama, 2004: "You know, I am a believer in … in knowing what you’re doing when you apply for a job. Uh, and I think that if I were seriously to consider running on a national ticket, I would essentially have to start now, before having served a day in the Senate. Now there may be some people who are comfortable doing that, but I am not one of those people."
Ut -- You are a loon. You should not converse with reasonable, interesting people.
Dust Bunny - "Hell yes. I guess you weren't paying attention during the last election. McCain's birth in Panama was made into a big deal."
Bullshit.
Link us to all of the MANY articles or investigations you apparently think were being carried via the MSM or even idiots like Drudge or Limbaugh or Fox...that raised the question of his nationality being questioned, and whether he could actually legally serve in our government...after serving for 25 years in the Senate??
And be sure to include all of the massive follow up via the wingnuts who were so concerned about Obama...making sure McCain was a "real" American.
Just means he can't be president (just like a 34-year-old can't be president).
Well, then, I'd never thought I'd say this, UT, but I'm glad then that Barack Obama II won the election, so that we may have been spared a legal challenge to President McCain's birth by the Left. Because don't you think for a second that wouldn't have happened. Would the election have been declared void, or would Sarah Palin have assumed the Presidency?
Wouldn't THAT have been a hoot.
Ut -- You are a loon.
Looness. Apparently, Ut is a woman.
Tibore - "When is the left going to realize that, as misguided and stupid this whole birtherism thing is, it wasn't driven by race?"
Bullshit.
And you know it.
UT - "He was still a coke junkie when he was attending Occidental, by his own admission."
Show me any evidenc of where president Obama referred to himself as a "coke junkie."
Bullshit.
Birtherism was not driven by race. It's just typical loon behavior. Just like Clinton's massive drug operation out of an Arkansas airstrip. Just like the Bush family Nazi connections.
Tell us, though, Raul: is the vast disappointment and growing disgust with Obama's presidency -- is that also driven by racism?
"Ut -- You are a loon. You should not converse with reasonable, interesting people."
Seven ... you're a name-caller. You attack the messenger instead of addressing the message. In other words, you're a typical Democrat Party hack from Chicago.
Ut -- Just off hand, what would you guess the percentage of American college students at elite universities who use cocaine is?
Second question: have you ever, ever set foot on an elite university campus?
"As a junior senator, do you honestly think you've earned the leadership capacity and skills necessary for leading the entire country during these turbulent wartimes and with our precipitously in-danger economy?"
Now that he's no longer a potential candidate, and actually holds the job, hopefully people won't be voting on their hope-and-change aspirations, but on a basic job performance assessment: ie/ "How'm I doing on delivering what I promised, on the job duties y'all elected me to do?"
Of course, all those entertained by these sideshows (and those campaigning to keep him in office) might prefer to keep the attention here on the artificially created "issues of the day".
Looking around where I'm at, I don't think the President would fare much above "average" these past few years, and that's with a mighty generous grader. No wonder he wants to take on Donald Trump and the Tea Party, instead of grappling with the real issues that matter.
The media too, which helped put him in office, has reason to steer clear of covering actual economic and foreign policy issues. Only question is: can they keep up these farcical stories until re-election time comes?? Somehow, I doubt it, but stranger things have happened.
Hope and Change, Take II. (This time, we really mean it!) No, really. Wait and see... with emphasis on the wait, faithful friends.)
Ut -- I am attacking your message. It is completely loony. That makes you a loon(ess).
From Wikipedia (warning, long), on the matter of John McCain being a natural born citizen of the United States:
" * John McCain (born 1936), who ran for the Republican party nomination in 2000 and was the Republican nominee in 2008, was born at Coco Solo Naval Air Station in the Panama Canal Zone. McCain never released his birth certificate to the press or independent fact-checking organizations, but did show it to Washington Post reporter Michael Dobbs, who wrote "a senior official of the McCain campaign showed me a copy of [McCain's] birth certificate issued by the 'family hospital' in the Coco Solo submarine base". A lawsuit filed by Fred Hollander in 2008 alleged that McCain was actually born in a civilian hospital in Colon City, Panama. Dobbs wrote that in his autobiography, Faith of My Fathers, McCain wrote that he was born "in the Canal Zone" at the U.S. Naval Air Station in Coco Solo, which was under the command of his grandfather, John S. McCain Sr. "The senator's father, John S. McCain Jr., was an executive officer on a submarine, also based in Coco Solo. His mother, Roberta McCain, now 96, has vivid memories of lying in bed listening to raucous celebrations of her son's birth from the nearby officers' club. The birth was announced days later in the English-language Panamanian American newspaper." The former unincorporated territory of the Panama Canal Zone and its related military facilities were not regarded as United States territory at the time, but 8 U.S.C. § 1403, which became law in 1937, retroactively conferred citizenship on individuals born within the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and on individuals born in the Republic of Panama on or after that date who had at least one U.S. citizen parent employed by the U.S. government or the Panama Railway Company; 8 U.S.C. § 1403 was cited in Judge Alsup's 2008 ruling, described below. A March 2008 paper by former Solicitor General Ted Olson and Harvard Law Professor Laurence H. Tribe opined that McCain was eligible for the Presidency. In April 2008, the U.S. Senate approved a non-binding resolution recognizing McCain's status as a natural-born citizen. In September 2008, U.S. District Judge William Alsup stated obiter in his ruling that it is "highly probable" that McCain is a natural-born citizen from birth by virtue of 8 U.S.C. § 1401, although he acknowledged the alternative possibility that McCain became a natural-born citizen retroactively, by way of 8 U.S.C. § 1403. These views have been criticized by Gabriel J. Chin, Professor of Law at the University of Arizona, who argues that McCain was at birth a citizen of Panama and was only retroactively declared a born citizen under 8 U.S.C. § 1403, because at the time of his birth and with regard to the Canal Zone the Supreme Court's Insular Cases overruled the Naturalization Act of 1795, which would otherwise have declared McCain a U.S. citizen immediately at birth. The U.S. Foreign Affairs Manual states that children born in the Panama Canal Zone at certain times became U.S. nationals without citizenship. It also states in general that "it has never been determined definitively by a court whether a person who acquired U.S. citizenship by birth abroad to U.S. citizens is a natural-born citizen […]". In Rogers v. Bellei the Supreme Court only ruled that "children born abroad of Americans are not citizens within the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment", and didn't elaborate on the natural-born status. Similarly, legal scholar Lawrence Solum concluded in an article on the natural born citizen clause that the question of McCain's eligibility could not be answered with certainty, and that it would depend on the particular approach of "constitutional construction". The urban legend fact checking website Snopes.com has examined the matter and cites numerous experts. It considers the matter "undetermined".[73]"
"Show me any evidenc of where president Obama referred to himself as a "coke junkie."
I would show you that evidence, but you'll never stop. You'll never be satisfied.
See me in two years.
(Not really: Just read Barack Obama's own memoir written by Bill Ayers, where Obama admits he was a coke junkie while attending Occidental College and quit doing drugs when he failed out of Occidental and applied to Columbia).
"Would the election have been declared void, or would Sarah Palin have assumed the Presidency?Wouldn't THAT have been a hoot."
Sexist.
Simon - So you're actually tryuing to somehow compare any questions that were raised about McCain...to the birthers?
That's teabagger drivel and you know it.
The point of his birthplace was certainly raised, but after already serving as a senator for 25 years, it was just in passing.
Show me all of the articles and discussions and debates relating to whether McCain was a real American citizen.
Who asked you for pity, VB?
To me the fact that a request from reality TV-star/political gadfly was enough for Obama to completely reverse himself and hop to it, while a request from one of his soldiers got the back of his hand, tells a lot about his character. As to the LTC who refused orders, he knew what he was getting into when he did it.
"Looness. Apparently, Ut is a woman."
Forgive me for asking, but since we're on the topic...
Are you a drag queen, vicki? (or princess, even?) Something I've always wondered about your handle...
I'm not one to buy into conspiracy theories and never really cared about the birther issue, but, given the release of the document, does anyone know the veracity of something like this?
Hate to bring this up, but I just checked the official web site for Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital and according to the information there, the name of the hospital at the time of his birth should have been Kauikeolani Children’s Hospital. According to the web site the name didn’t change to Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital until Kauikeolani Children’s Hospital merged with Kapi‘olani Maternity Home in 1978. So how could his official long form birth certificate that was generated in 1961 have the name of the hospital that wasn’t created until 1978?"
I put that out there not because I hope it's true, etc, etc, but because I saw it mentioned on another site and thought it would make for good popcorn.
Pass the butter, please.
Ut -- Using cocaine for fun does not make you a coke junkie. Absent a lot of money or a loose pussy, it's very difficult to become a coke junkie because cocaine is a very expensive product.
Obama did not have a lot of money as a student. Nor did he have a loose pussy.
So, you are wrong. And you are a loon.
failed out of Occidental and applied to Columbia
Hilarious. Yeah, dude. That happens.
See, now we're talking about McCain. Must be because he's white.
Ut- You're lying.
From a passage in president Obama's book:
Obama discusses how he dealt with questions from his mother when he was 17 and a senior in high school. The context of the book also makes clear that he was trying to deal with the problems his race presented.
"I had learned not to care," he wrote. "I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it..."
"Using cocaine for fun does not make you a coke junkie."
So you say.
But then no coke junkie actually BELIVES he's a coke junkie, do they?
Can you point to evidence you have which definitively quantifies the amount of cocaine Barack Obama snorted while a (alleged) student at Occidental College, because I don't believe you that he was only an occasional junkie.
I think we can all agree that this birther goofiness did not really take on a life until after the 2008 election.
Would it have taken on a life with McCain? Probably not.
But Jeremy, would there have been massive leftist outrage and protests over our killing innocents in Libya? About BP?
You understand politics better than poor Ut. Be honest.
McCain was born in the Canal Zone when it was US territory. Don't think the Panama thing applies in that case.
Certainly, at the time he was born, nobody saw a slug like Carter giving it away.
Maybe he kept it unpublished so long because it fails to say conceived immaculately. Just a guess.
Ut -- You don't have any idea what you are talking about. And you even admit it. So stop embarrassing yourself.
"Using cocaine for fun does not make you a coke junkie. Absent a lot of money or a loose pussy, it's very difficult to become a coke junkie because cocaine is a very expensive product. Obama did not have a lot of money as a student. Nor did he have a loose pussy. So, you are wrong. And you are a loon."
Please provide proper documentatation, preferably at a presidential press conference, to support these currently unsubstantiated allegations.
(There, that ought to keep 'em going for another few months, at least.)
MarkG,
Go here. Navigate to the state of Hawaii and look at the racial classifications. Look at any other states that you want. Check out the different countries.
Racial classifications were completely different back when obama was born.
By the way, what race are you? French? German?
Ut said...
"McCain was born in Panama ... so he was not a 'natural born' American citizen. He was a 'foreign born' American citizen."
That's not correct, as we explained at the time. McCain was a natural born citizen within the original meaning of the clause, which drew its content from the common law term of art "natural born subject." McCain was born on soil over which the United States was sovereign, and his parents were officers of the United States on official assignment; either of these would independently satisfy the original meaning of the clause.
" ... failed out of Occidental and applied to Columbia"
That's precisely what happened. Barack Obama failed out of Occidental because he was an admitted crack head. (Oh, he softens it up by calling it "blow" and claiming he only did it "when he could afford it" but we all know what that street slang means.
That's why he won't release his college transcripts and why he had to transfer to Columbia, where he admits he buckled down and quit drugs so he could graduate seeing as how he got the slot a white guy had to give up so he could go to school.
I guess in another two years we'll see his transcripts once he's no longer president and there's no further need to cover it up.
MarkG - You can try to make this all look like an honest, "nationality" issue, that Americans really need to address...but in reality, you know it's nothing but teabagger bullshit, and of course based on a form of racism.
If McCain or any other white candidate had released a legal, acceptable document relating to his or her birth records (just as president Obama did) there would never have been this insane birther uproar...and of course, you already know that but don't have the guts to admit it.
Where does the Muslim thingie fit into your "nationality" theory?
Jeremy weasels: "So you're actually tryuing to somehow compare any questions that were raised about McCain...to the birthers?"
What you asked was this:
Did you hear anything about this "nationality" issue relating to John McCain...or for that matter, ANY other person ever running for president?
The answer is: YES. We have heard something about this "nationality" issue. I and Victoria have given you several examples.
The fact that you don't like the examples or that they exist, won't make our statements false.
You asked.....we answered. Yes.
Spin some more.
Ut -- Nobody fails out of Occidental and gets into Columbia. To even suggest this implies a comical lack of understanding about the world.
"McCain was born on soil over which the United States was sovereign,"
Wrong. McCain was born in Panama when it was not US territory and was a foreign born national conferred citizenship much later on. He could never be called a "natural born" citizen.
But whatever ... this thread is about the illegitimacy of Barack Obama's presidency and his crack habit, not John McCain.
Ut - You're not even a good teabagger.
Now he's not a "coke junkie"...he's a "crack head."
Racist fool.
Jeremy said...
Simon - So you're actually tryuing to somehow compare any questions that were raised about McCain...to the birthers?
That's teabagger drivel and you know it.
Little Zero's people made the Canal Zone an issue - a shot across the bow not to question Zero's qualification IMHO.
As for drivel, nothing to do with the Tea Partiers, it's all Lefty.
PS vb, thanks for the long summation on McCain (I jumped in at the 200 comment mark and didn't see it).
For the record, my big question has always been about medical records and academic transcripts. They would seem to hold the more damaging material politically.
Be interesting to see if the transcripts show up soon. that's the Donald's big thing now.
"Nobody fails out of Occidental and gets into Columbia."
Not on merit, no.
But if you're a quota filler, it's laughably easy.
But Barack Obama could easily settle the dispute by simply releasing his college transcripts. Everybody claims he's the smartest guy in the room.
Why won't he prove it? It's a simple request that a reasonable person would be only too happy to honor.
Just like releasing his birth certificate was a reasonable request that he eventually had to admit was reasonable, since, you know, we all have to do it.
Jeremy said...
"Simon - So you're actually trying to somehow compare any questions that were raised about McCain...to the birthers?"
Yes. As you concede, "[t]he point of his birthplace was certainly raised," and if your point is that the questions about McCain haven't attained the same volume as the fuss about Obama's, the answer is duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh: McCain lost. He isn't the President, he's never going to run again, so why on Earth would anyone waste time pursuing the issue?
And your question is more than a little disingenous. I didn't make the comparison out of the blue; you asserted that these questions weren't asked about other candidates, so you can't very well complain when the point is refuted.
So Obama was "bemused" while a military officer faced a court martial because Obama refused to release his long-form birth certificate?
Obama needs to answer for this.
Let him explain why he thought it was funny to leave a military officer dangling in the wind rather than release such a supposedly trivial document.
"Now he's not a "coke junkie"...he's a "crack head."
They're one and the same. It's all cocaine.
How is it racist? Are there no white junkies? No white crackheads? I think your own racist stereotypes are being revealed.
Barack Obama admits his cocaine abuse in his memoir. How is that racist?
"Let him explain why he thought it was funny to leave a military officer dangling in the wind rather than release such a supposedly trivial document."
Took some time to gin it up.
If one soldier has to twist in the wind ... so be it.
"Nobody fails out of Occidental and gets into Columbia. To even suggest this implies a comical lack of understanding about the world."
Not so sure...
Racial-based admissions works a bit... differently. If there is a promising black candidate, and your university is competing to up their demographic numbers, a well-crafted "I'm a changed man/student" essay might do wonders in overcoming even the most unpromising GPA.
That's why plenty of admissions committees don't go on straight test scores and college/high school grades, and fought so hard legally to justify their "additional admission considerations" based on social/economic background, sex/race of the individual, etc.
It ain't pretty, but it ain't necessarily untrue just because you can't comprehend how these admission policies get distorted to meet the needs of the institutions doing the sorting out of the meritorious in our society, and those not so much so.
Isn't Columbia benefitting greatly from that admit, and don't you have to wonder if Occidental would have done something differently to keep him there, had they only known he'd grow into ... the First Black President in US history.
(See, once you start focusing on these superficial things like the color of one's skin, you truly get into wild landscape with plenty of unbelievably unequal footings... Remember how Dr. King warned us against that, against continuing to venture into such ugly territory?)
Dust Bunny - I never said McCain's birthplace was "never" raised.
I said the articles or any coverage of it was just a blip.
Are you still actually trying to compare it to the birther insanity?
I realize most of what you post is designed to remain in the good graces of the local teabagger crowd here, but even YOU aren't that dense.
Lincolntf wrote:
As to the LTC who refused orders, he knew what he was getting into when he did it.
I believe reading that when the charges were read to the LTC during his Court Marshal, that is to say, when the full brunt and implication of what was going to happen to him (go to prison, lose his pension, be dishonoured) finally dawned on the officer, that he backed off, saying he was under the advice of counsel and 'struggling' with his beliefs.
I'm not LTC Lakin, but if I were he, I'd be thinking at that moment that I sacrificed my life's work by being egged on by others (like the defense fund spearheaded by World Net Daily), and what a dupe I was.
Mary - So now president Obama "flunked out" of Occidental College, but because of being black, was ushered into Columbia?
More teabagger racism.
"Raul said...
Tibore - "When is the left going to realize that, as misguided and stupid this whole birtherism thing is, it wasn't driven by race?"
Bullshit.
And you know it. "
Wow! What a stunning display of reason and evidence! And here I was wondering why liberals lose arguments! (*rolls eyes*)
What I do know is what I see. And what I see is race hypersensitivity being driven by the left, not the right.
When you're old enough to have my experience, maybe you'll see it too. Until then, don't presume to speak for another's experience. I do know what the bullshit is, and you're the one peddling it.
Criticise birtherism on it's inherent stupidity and quit doing the liberal kneejerk of bringng race into the matter just so you have your favorite cudgel to bludgeon with. Show that you're willing to be an individual instead of a reaction-bot.
Since we obviously have a huge group of posters here who know all about what racism is or is not...I have a question:
How many of the posters here, other than good ol' regular teabagger suck up, Crack Head...are black?
Obama is still a drug addict. Still addicted to nicotine, and we have no blood work which proves that he is not currently using cocaine. He certainly loves expensive champagne, paid for by the tax payers, and for all we know, he is still doing blow or smoking crack. Once a junkie always a junkie.
Raul, quit sucking Obama's dick - that's Sullivan's job.
AllenS,
My point was that Hawaii is unique. It has/had large and distinct ethnic populations that us mainlanders might describe as "Asian" while a Hawaiian might describe by nationality to distinguish the all-important differences between the various ethic groups.
Of course, "African" isn't a race or nationality, but whoever filled out Obama's birth certificate was probably just a clerk who didn't realize the immense national significance of it.
Arizona governor Jan Brewer sure played it right when she vetoed the so called Birther Bill. Wonder if she had inside information.
The McCain "birtherism" never reached Obama proportions because the matter was ADDRESSED by John McCain. The Senate even passed a non-binding resolution declaring him eligible to be POTUS. We're talking of a Democratic-led Senate, then and now.
For Chrissakes, one can't claim that there wasn't a similar hullabaloo for McCain than there was for Obama's birth certificate because the circumstances are totally different thanks to the actions of the person in question, namely, John McCain.
Tibore - You can defend the teabaggers and birthers all you want, but any thinking person knows what much of the criticism of president Obama (especially the birth and religion bullshit) is based in.
Racism.
And you know it, too.
what if the president had stood up at the press conference and said:
"My mother, at age 17, got knocked up by a 25 year old fellow student in her Russian language class in 1960. Instead of aborting me, she "married" him and gave birth to me in Hawaii. My birth father was a bigamist, and abandoned me and my mother. She did her best to raise me."
what if the president used the release of his "long" form to teach the next generation he says he cares about.
Bonus Trivia Question:
Who can tell us the topic of Michelle Obama's senior thesis at Princeton? What was her major there, and what did she take her certificate in?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/26/politics/uwire/main3881166.shtml
"It is important to consider the time period in which Michelle Obama wrote her thesis," College Democrats vice president Scott Weingart '09 said in an e-mail. "In 1985, Princeton was still a very conservative school; [Tiger Inn] would not admit women members for another six years. Today, the student body is a lot more progressive and diverse."
I imagine racial politics at Columbia during the same time period were rather similar, as America began consciously trying to grow the Black Middle Class, with whatever artificial inducements and accommodations were necessary to right the wrongs of the past.
It's our shared American history, folks. No need to deny it, anymore than it's racial two years in, to wonder as the late Geraldine Ferraro did, if a white junior senator named Barry O'Brien would have been elected in 2008 with the same credentials and job experiences.
Arizona governor Jan Brewer sure played it right when she vetoed the so called Birther Bill. Wonder if she had inside information.
Yes. The matter inside her brain.
This is why Jindal saying recently that he would approve a similar Bill in Louisiana, discredits him far beyond any SOTU response, in my eyes.
Jeremy, your so projecting. Are you really, really simply that stupid?
Call birthers what you want, and I'm right with you, but stop projecting your own fantasies onto them. That, too, is not reason-based thinking, and is every bit as stupid as the birther stuff.
Old habits die hard. Geraldine Ferraro and Bill Clinton were lambasted as racists for comments they made during the campaign.
Yet the usual suspects tend to become deaf when that's brought up.
vbspurs "The McCain "birtherism" never reached Obama proportions because the matter was ADDRESSED by John McCain."
Just as it was by president Obama during his campaign. (Unless of course, you don't think McCain, Clinton or any other candidate or campaign representative didn't vet his birth...?)
And are you saying one can get an American passport with the documentation provided by the president, but it still doesn't mean he was actually born in Hawaii?
Do you also believe all of the other people who use the same documentation provided by Hawaii and other states...are not really Americans?
Duh.
Ut said...
"Wrong. McCain was born in Panama when it was not US territory and was a foreign born national conferred citizenship much later on."
No, you're wrong, and if you bothered to read the exhaustive analysis I linked to, you'd know it. McCain was born in the PCZ—not Panama—in 1936, at a time when the United States was functionally sovereign over the canal zone. To briefly recapitulate the significant points:
(1) We know generally from standard originalist precepts and specifically from United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), that "natural born citizen" is, mutatis mutandis, coextensive with the common law's concept of "natural born subject."
(2) We know from Blackstone that natural-born subjects were those born within the dominions of the crown of England unless to officers of a foreign crown, and from Matthew Hale that this in turn meant the crown's soverign territory.
And (3) We know that the PCZ was sovereign American territory because of the terms of the Hay-Bunau Varilla Treaty and the functional test for sovereignty used by the Supreme Court in an analogous context in Boumediene v. Bush, 553 U.S. 723 (2008), and in precisely the context of the PCZ in O'Connor v. United States, 479 U.S. 27 (1986), where the court found that "[f]rom 1904 to 1979, the United States exercised sovereignty over the Panama Canal." You will notice that 1936 is between 1904 and 1979.
From this, it's also absolutely clear that Barack Obama is a natural born citizen. He was born in Hawaii, which was undeniably sovereign soil. The fact that his father was foreign is irrelevant because the common law exception was based on the notion of ministers of a foreign power on active assignment, not merely being a foreign subject. And the fact that he might arguably have lost his citizenship later is irrelevant too, because those questions pertain to his statutory citizenship, not his common law natural born citizenship.
Hoosier Daddy - I think anybody, left or right, who makes racist comments, should be taken to task.
But for many here to act as if this birther insanity or the Muslim insanity or the Kenyan insanity...isn't based in part, on a form of racism is at the very least disingenuous and at most...just as I said: teabagger bullshit.
Don't you dare spew your obnoxious, unhinged, brainless claptrap at me. I can fillet you in 6 languages with one slice of my tongue, whilst dancing on your intellectual grave.
*sticks out tongue*
"How many of the posters here, other than good ol' regular teabagger suck up, Crack Head...are black?"
You're freakin' kidding me. This is your way of demonstrating that leftists are correct about rightists racial outlooks?
Not black. Filipino/Chinese here. Which I've mentioned before. Does that somehow change the veracity of my posts, or do they still stand on their own internal arguments?
Here's to showing us, man. Yeah, you really are race-blind, ain't'cha?
"Jeremy said...
Tibore - You can defend the teabaggers and birthers all you want, but any thinking person knows what much of the criticism of president Obama (especially the birth and religion bullshit) is based in.
Racism.
And you know it, too."
Ahh yes, "thinking people"... that's why the charge is presented without evidence, merely association "Look, the President's black; therefore it's all racism!" Riiiiight. Good logic! (*rolls eyes*)
Thanks for very clearly demonstrating my stance that it's not the folks on the right trying to shoehorn race into the discussion. Let me know when you actually have real evidence for your charge. Until then, yes, I do see racism. It comes from the left more often. Who else tries to establish race rather than performance based metrics for society?
Don't wear your cudgel out on just one thread; I'm sure you got enough bile for plenty of future posts. You don't want to blowhard your wad all in one place.
MarkG "Jeremy, your so projecting. Are you really, really simply that stupid?"
You want to run that one by me again?
"So now president Obama "flunked out" of Occidental College, but because of being black, was ushered into Columbia? More teabagger racism."
Not saying that's how it went down. Just saying ... it's not only racist, but a little naive, to think in blanket statements this way:
"Nobody fails out of Occidental and gets into Columbia. To even suggest this implies a comical lack of understanding about the world."
Of course, look at how many people thought that no way was O.J. Simpson guilty of murdering his white wife. "If the glove doesn't fit, you must aquit."
Comical stupidity knows no political party nor skin-tone bounds. Let's leave race out of it, say, and get back to more objective measures of quality, shall we? Might be less celebrating of ... The First Black American President, but then we might just see more qualified candidates elected to office, and more results-oriented measures taking place there, without all this racial baggage cluttering up the scene.
Dare to Dream?
I'm beginning to believe Trump's strategy is to tear down Obama by dragging out these things, make him bend to The Donald's will.
He raised a lot of doubt about Little Zero; if he can come up with something that is damaging (academically, for example), Trump may emerge as Donald the Giant Killer (metaphorically speaking, of course).
vbspurs said...
Arizona governor Jan Brewer sure played it right when she vetoed the so called Birther Bill. Wonder if she had inside information.
Yes. The matter inside her brain.
This is why Jindal saying recently that he would approve a similar Bill in Louisiana, discredits him far beyond any SOTU response, in my eyes.
I don't think anybody has seriously raised Jindal's name in a year or so and the example you give is emblematic of why.
Brewer knew the birther bill was a joke when baptismal certs were mentioned. A very smart lady.
VPOTUS, methinks.
WV "pashwoom" Usually how and where children are created.
Obama was born in Hawaii. Palin was born in Alaska. John McCain was born in Panama.
Really, the only true American of the lot was Joe Biden. Here's to you, Plugs!
Jeremy said..Since we obviously have a huge group of posters here who know all about what racism is or is not...I have a question:
How many of the posters here, other than good ol' regular teabagger suck up, Crack Head...are black?
I'm white. Does that mean I don't know what racism is? Aren't you white too?
Tibore - Are you black?
I asked the question because I always find deep discussions of "racism" via mostly snow white teabaggers so illuminating.
I mean, with so much real life experience...
ComradeX - "I asked the question because I always find deep discussions of "racism" via mostly snow white teabaggers so illuminating."
I am white and I know racism when I see it.
Oh crap! Actually, Palin was born in Idaho, wasn't she? So here's to Spud and Plugs!
wv: ragraw (LOL)
It's been said in this thread "why is Obama doing this now"?
"Palin: Don't let White House 'distract you' from Bernanke press conference" TODAY! That's why.
Jeremy, no one will ever admit to being racist, We can think it, but no one will own up to that. There are people who so do not identify with Obama that they will throw lots of things to see if any of them stick.
Witness this thread: still a lot of birthers, that's not gonna change. They can not and will not make sense of this president so they have these constructs set up to help them cope. Nothing will change their mind, not facts, not majorities, not common sense, not Jesus.
No, Garage, it's about Barack Obama being uppity.
I know it must kill you that a black person is so much smarter and successful than you. But just because you're too stupid and incapable of making something out of your life doesn't mean everybody is. Barack Obama is President. And you write racist drivel on blogs. Sucks to be you.
"How many of the posters here, other than good ol' regular teabagger suck up, Crack Head...are black?"
Define "black".
(No really, I'm serious.)
http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Noel-Ignatiev/dp/0415918251
These socially-oriented labels seem to change over time; witness the "Negro" v. "African" race debate above.
Besides, if you really think only "black" people in this country are in danger of racial attitudes holding them back, boy are you a Liberal with a capital L.
And that's not a compliment, son.
vbspurs said...
"The McCain 'birtherism' never reached Obama proportions because the matter was ADDRESSED by John McCain"
And, more importantly, because he lost, and so it didn't matter. Birtherism, it is perhaps forgotten, started with Phillip Berg, a Democrat lawyer who was pissed about Hillary Clinton losing the primary; he filed a lawsuit shortly before the 2008 election. But, but—and this is a huge, important but—apart from his case, almost the entirety of the birther movement happened after Obama was elected. See, e.g., Kerchner v. Obama, 612 F.3d 204 (3d Cir. 2010); Cohen v. Obama, 332 F.App'x 640 (D.C. Cir. 2009); Berg v. Obama, 586 F.3d 234, 239 (3d Cir. 2009); Taitz v. Obama, 707 F.Supp. 2d 1 (D. D.C. 2010); Barnett v. Obama, 2009 WL 3861788, 2009 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 101206 (C.D. Cal. 2009); Rhodes v. MacDonald, 2009 WL 2997605, 2009 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 84743 (M.D. Ga. 2009), Cook v. Good, 2009 WL 2163535, 2009 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 126144 (M.D. Ga. 2009); and a whole mess more (Drake v. Obama, Keyes v. Bowen, and Allen v. Soetoro in California; Hollister v. Soetoro in D.C; etc. ad nauseum). So of course there hasn't been as much noise about McCain's eligibilty, because he isn't the President! The analogy fails because there were just as many concerns raised about McCain's eligibility as Obama's before the election and after the election, we wouldn't expect to see them raised because it was thereafter moot!
It's a right-wing loon hothouse here today. When Jeremy sounds reasonable, you know it's a bad, bad day at Althouse.
Good luck getting that blood work, dudes. Good luck.
I never said McCain's birthplace was "never" raised.
I said the articles or any coverage of it was just a blip.
True. You never did say any of the above. You are making it conversations after the fact.
This is what you actually said.
Did you hear anything about this "nationality" issue relating to John McCain...or for that matter, ANY other person ever running for president?
And I answered YES. And gave three examples with no comparisons to the current Obama "nationality" controversy.
I am a very literal person.
Keep spinning.
But for many here to act as if this birther insanity or the Muslim insanity or the Kenyan insanity...isn't based in part, on a form of racism is at the very least disingenuous and at most...just as I said: teabagger bullshit.
Sure about that? I can make the same argument that the vitriol displayed by liberals toward Condi Rice or Clarence Thomas is nothing more than racism.
Simon, this is why having a person with your knowledge about legalese, and just plain ole common sense, is invaluable amongst the trolls and diehards. Thanks so much for your contributions, dude. Makes me proud to be Brit...American. :)
Off for the day. Have fun, Birfers.
Cheers,
Victoria
Tibore - Are you black?
I asked the question because I always find deep discussions of "racism" via mostly snow white teabaggers so illuminating.
Are you? Cause that sword cuts both ways.
Mary - I suggested you were implying the president, after flunking out of Occidental, was ushered into Columbia because of affirmative action...you said:
"Not saying that's how it went down. Just saying..."
Well, then what exactly did you mean by this?
"Not so sure...
Racial-based admissions works a bit... differently. If there is a promising black candidate, and your university is competing to up their demographic numbers, a well-crafted "I'm a changed man/student" essay might do wonders in overcoming even the most unpromising GPA."
"Jeremy said...
Tibore - Are you black?
I asked the question because I always find deep discussions of "racism" via mostly snow white teabaggers so illuminating.
I mean, with so much real life experience... "
You don't read, do you?
What I find illuminating is the sactimonious stance people like you take in supposedly illuminating racism. Including times where you're the one injecting it, then projecting onto others (see above).
Again: Evidence. Present it. So far, you've given zero.
Go back and reread my post to answer your really ignorant "Are you black" question. Then reread the part where I ask whether my race changes my argument or not. Maybe you'll see the light at some point.
I am white and I know racism when I see it
I might recommend Lasix.
Just sayin
"I am white and I know racism when I see it."
Most liberals indeed do look into the mirror everyday...
I wonder if all your black "friends" think you are in condescending territory now. (Do you actively recruit your friends based on diversity demographics? I bet you do... ;-)
ps. I'm guessing Ms. Michelle Obama and I have much more in common than you and I, Jeremy.
Of course, you just want us to put our arms alongside one another, for a simple eyeball, skin-tone measurement.
So much for black and white analysis according to your measurements...
ps. Do you count the Jews as blacks or whites? Just curious.
"Simon said...
Birtherism, it is perhaps forgotten, started with Phillip Berg, a Democrat lawyer who was pissed about Hillary Clinton losing the primary; he filed a lawsuit shortly before the 2008 election. But, but—and this is a huge, important but—apart from his case, almost the entirety of the birther movement happened after Obama was elected...
... So of course there hasn't been as much noise about McCain's eligibilty, because he isn't the President! The analogy fails because there were just as many concerns raised about McCain's eligibility as Obama's before the election and after the election, we wouldn't expect to see them raised because it was thereafter moot!"
Oh. I actually didn't know a lot of that. Thanks for the info, Simon!
several prominent student leaders said they did not remember his playing any role.
He was present.
The National Geographic channel aired a show last week that seemed to take Trutherism seriously (before I changed the channel). Can we have a stupid Birther documentary, please?
Hoosier - I already said I was white.
Are you really saying that you don't think racism is playing a part in ANY of this? This entire birthism, Muslim, Kenyan insanity is all based in American's concerns relating to "nationality?"
C'mon...I grew up in an urban Midwestern city, and I can recognize racism when I see it, I was surrounded by it for years...and it it's still alive and well to this day.
And you live in Indiana...not exactly a melting pot of racial diversity.
*And before you go into any defense of Indiana, I lived there a for a time, enjoyed the city and people, but also am well aware of it's political and racial slant.
So, it was available all along? Our President is a jerk.
Jeremy, you're going around telling other people what they think. People who you hate. And it's never flattering. How convenient.
What a fascist little retard you are.
Jeremy's white but he interned at the B.R.O.T.H.E.R.H.O.O.D. Ironically, he was an affirmative action hire.
*And before you go into any defense of Indiana, I lived there a for a time, enjoyed the city and people, but also am well aware of it's political and racial slant.
LOL. You lived in the city of Indiana? Where is that?
Try spending a couple of years on the south side of Ft Wayne. They've got every single racial issue there (I know because I lived there) that we do here in St Louis, minus the city schools losing their accreditation.
You're a bigot. Not a very bright one at that.
It's really not that hard to read and think through what was written upthread, Jeremy. Get over your black/white thing, and try some honest thinking?
Someone wrote this: "Nobody fails out of Occidental and gets into Columbia. To even suggest this implies a comical lack of understanding about the world."
And I disagreed with the naive, blanket statement. (The ways of the world can be funny sometimes...) Thus, I wrote this in response:
Not so sure...
Racial-based admissions works a bit... differently. If there is a promising black candidate, and your university is competing to up their demographic numbers, a well-crafted "I'm a changed man/student" essay might do wonders in overcoming even the most unpromising GPA.
That's why plenty of admissions committees don't go on straight test scores and college/high school grades, and fought so hard legally to justify their "additional admission considerations" based on social/economic background, sex/race of the individual, etc.
It ain't pretty, but it ain't necessarily untrue just because you can't comprehend how these admission policies get distorted to meet the needs of the institutions doing the sorting out of the meritorious in our society, and those not so much so.
Isn't Columbia benefitting greatly from that admit, and don't you have to wonder if Occidental would have done something differently to keep him there, had they only known he'd grow into ... the First Black President in US history.
(See, once you start focusing on these superficial things like the color of one's skin, you truly get into wild landscape with plenty of unbelievably unequal footings... Remember how Dr. King warned us against that, against continuing to venture into such ugly territory?)
Now personally,
I haven't investigated nor called for an investigation into President (I cap the P, myself) Obama's college grades. But funnier things have happened on the way to the forum, than basically accepting what the original poster I was responding to wrote.
But I'm sure you've got me down as White. Racist. on all your cleanly checked box forms. So let it go. Eh. Doesn't bother me, because personally, I don't play those kind of sad classification games.
You're revealing a bit more of your own way of thinking through your calls for futher classification though (WHO'S WHITE ON HERE? Where my n****** at??).
It's kind of amusing, to see white folk still privileged enough to condescend to thinking this way though. Biracial births are gonna do ya in though, and your whole set of artificial classifications. The demographics, they are a-changin' ...
Mary - My mother is Jewish, but since Jews don't share one common ancestry I never thought it related to race.
Can you identify a genetic distinction that would support any such opinion?
*And anyway, if you go back far enough we're ALL...well, you know...
So, it was available all along? Our President is a jerk.
Yes, the first time he released it. Remember? What is wrong with you people.
Mary - Get your head out of your ass.
Are you actually trying to say that NONE of this insanity relating to president Obama's birthplace or religion is in any way, shape or form..related to a form of racism?
It's ALL related to an honest, straight forward question of the man's "nationality?"
Bullshit and you know it.
What is wrong with you people.
Today?
Unidentified bug bite on the left forearm, a 7-year-old's treehouse to finish (despite all the shitty weather this spring), and a wife that's finally hitting her early 30's "peak", so to speak.
You?
"Yes, the first time he released it. Remember?"
No, but then I haven't been paying attention. You're saying he released this before?
The reason the birth certificate thing became an issue is twofold;
1. He never produced one
2. He's an awful president
Both of those reasons can be attributed to Zero himself.
//fixed//
"C'mon...I grew up in an urban Midwestern city, and I can recognize racism when I see it, I was surrounded by it for years...and it it's still alive and well to this day."
In fact,
you perpetuate it. I'm sorry if you, as a white person, have a guilty conscience and need to "prove yourself" to the blacks (where you at???) in the crowd.
But please,
don't assume all white people (snow white was your preferred term, I believe?) share your guilt. Don't make the rest of us pay for your (presumed) white-people/family sins and ill-gotten privileges earlier in time.
We don't all share in your collective liberal guilt, and we're not all ashamed or embarrased at having white skins. Even on the beach, if you can believe that!
ps. I'm sorry about your upbringing. Have you tried counseling to ... get over, as the kids today say?
Personally, I went to a well-integrated high school, and perhaps that, for me, has made all the difference in the world. Betcha you affluent too, eh? Double the guilt factor!
Re. Get your head out of your ass.
Checking out of the discussion now. I can grapple with white racists, the best of em.
But lowering myself to the vulgarity level? Not my cup o' tea, thanks.
You keep on with the "Me White. You Black." mindset, and see where that gets ya. No need to hurl obscenities to an otherwise polite, and rational, commenter though.
Next thing you know,
you're gonna accuse me of harassing you, by responding patiently to your follow up questions. Poor white fella. Out of the liberal plantation, mixing with all the colors in the fields...
"You're saying he released this before?"
Yes, that's what he's saying, and he's lying.
What was previously released was a redacted version of this document produced by Democrat Party partisans and provided to the Obama election campaign.
Even today, they're still lying about this issue.
It's quite remarkable.
1. He never produced one
Really? Then what was the document given to Factcheck.org?
Mary - You're full of shit.
I'm not trying to share any guilt with anybody, especially here. I base my opinons on actual experience.
I feel that much of the situation surrounding the birthism insanity, the "Obama is a Muslim" insanity and any of the rest of the crazy things people say about hism..."he's a crack head?'...he's "coke junkie?"...he's a Kenyan...?
Much of it it is based in a form of racism.
You can defend it all you want, but we both know it's a crock.
"Mary - My mother is Jewish, "
And now I KNOW it's time to go.
Once commenters start dragging in unrequested personal information to further their "white, racist-spotting" credentials...
(You really do have a lot to get over in the personal department, don't you? Sorry again for your upbringing, but don't let that define your future.)
"But for many here to act as if this birther insanity or the Muslim insanity or the Kenyan insanity...isn't based in part, on a form of racism is at the very least disingenuous and at most...just as I said: teabagger bullshit."
Which form of racism, in point of fact, is it allegely based on.
And please, list all the "forms" of racism so that we can have a complete list of all the forms.
The only racism on display is the Democrat Party genociding an entire generation of black people via Planned Parenthood funding.
Are you concerned, at all, about this "form" of racism called "genocide?"
Or do you just want to talk about Obama's forged birth "certificate."
NotYourTypicalNewYorker said...
It's been said in this thread "why is Obama doing this now"?
"Palin: Don't let White House 'distract you' from Bernanke press conference" TODAY! That's why.
Yes, and she's the 'dumb' one, remember?
Jeremy said...
Mary - Get your head out of your ass.
Are you actually trying to say that NONE of this insanity relating to president Obama's birthplace or religion is in any way, shape or form..related to a form of racism?
Racism is the only thing the Lefties have left to defend Little Zero.
When gas is $6 (or 8 or 10) a gallon and Gallup tells us the U-6 is over 20 (or even 21) with 8 million or so "discouraged" workers and Libya (the quick, easy war that would take "days, not weeks") is still a "stalemate", as Mike Mullen puts it, anyone who criticizes Zero will still be a racist because we all know how smart and cool and transcendental Zero is, so it couldn't be because he's no good.
Could it?
I feel that much of the situation surrounding the birthism insanity, the "Obama is a Muslim" insanity and any of the rest of the crazy things people say about hism..."he's a crack head?'...he's "coke junkie?"...he's a Kenyan...?
Much of it it is based in a form of racism.
First you say you "feel" it is (big surprise there). Then you make the statement that it IS.
Which is it? Where's your proof for the latter? Or are we just discussing your feelings, no doubt crystallized while you lived in Indiana, IN?
To quote a troll on this blog, "duh".
Bart DePalma said...
joyce said...
There is the issue of American citizenship. Was BO an American because he was born in Hawaii or because he was born to an 18 year old American?
"Obama needed to be born in the United States to become a natural born citizen because his mom did not qualify to convey citizenship to him if he was born overseas under the law if the time because she had not spend enough time in the country after age 15."
========================
As Tibore said, end it!
Birtherism is useful to the crowd that casts conservatives as believers in the 6,000 year old Earth, Jesus riding a dinosaur, Birthers. As war thirsty loons who also believe full auto weapons and ability to dump garbage anywhere they want are hallmarks of FREEDOM!
Birthright citizenship didn't exist before 1868.
Natural-born meant something quite different to the Founders, compared to the Birther loons. Who argue that accident of locale of birth is now the penultimate measure of being an American - so to a Birther, all anchor babies of illegals are "natural born" if it can be proved they were subject to the jurisdiction of the USA. And to a birther, a Al Qaeda terrorist born to Saudi students in the USA in the 70s who did't know he had been born there, doesn't speak English, lived only in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia and GITMO since age 4 months old...is a natural born citizen.
Let's add another thing to the mix. When we admitted all new states to the Union after the original 13 - NOTHING was put in those terms and circumstances of Statehood Entry contracts about the new Americans being 2nd class not-natural-born citizens. Especially important in the case of the sovereign Republics of California and Texas.
And as Synova has said, no person currently in the military accepts that their children are 2nd class if born overseas doing duty. Nor has any military lawyer ever thought a need to clear up "doubts". And let us move away from military worship to note there are plenty of US government officials and private sector expats doing vital work for the interests of the US overseas that are ALSO not "diplomats" but have full citizenship rights because they qualify under the earlier, more legitimate source of citizenship that existed before 1868. Born of American blood.
"Then what was the document given to Factcheck.org?"
It was not a copy of his original long-form birth certificate.
It was a contemporaneously produced document made by Democrats that was an abstracted version of his original long-form birth certificate that left off certain information that Obama tried to keep hidden for two years.
If you're going to discuss this topic Garage, please at least inform yourself first.
Google is your friend.
"Yes, that's what he's saying, and he's lying."
A lot of the President's supporters are jerks, too.
What is this, a Nabisco warehouse?
Sure are a lot of crackers around here!
"A lot of the President's supporters are jerks, too."
You know, I've noticed that also. Barack Obama seems to attract an outsized share of douchebags to his defense.
I wonder why that is? And what it says about him as a President that the douchebags seem to gravitate towards him and only him.
See, now, AL, that's the way to burst in to a thread. With comedy. Well done.
"Sure are a lot of crackers around here!"
AlphaLiberal has been reduced to making Florida cracker jokes.
Come on Alpha, why don't you address the obvious inconsistencies that have been brought to light about the alleged "birth certificate" that Barack Obama waved in our faces today.
What say you, sir. Can you debate on the merits, or just name-call?
Here is more on Republican racism.
Hell, there are so many honkies here that for a while I thought it was a union thug rally in Wisconsin - talk about being blinded by the white!
WV:phite - for your white to party.
"Ut said...
Google is your friend."
Yeah. 9/11 Truthers say that too.
I think these conservative crackers really do protest to much when they howl and whine at the mere mention of racism.
To demand that no-one ever discuss racism or point it out is an act of racism. It demands that the racist be permitted to spew their filthy hate.
Which is why we need to call you conservative crackers on your frequent racism more often and more forcefully.
There is nothing in the slightest wrong with pointing out racism when it occurs. To demand racism be tolerated and ignored is a shameful act by shameful people.
Ut:
What say you, sir. Can you debate on the merits, or just name-call?
Up yours, you racist pig.
Wow.
Just Wow.
(shakes head, leaves for appointment)
Come on Alpha, why don't you address the obvious inconsistencies that have been brought to light about the alleged "birth certificate" that Barack Obama waved in our faces today.
The only inconsistencies are to sad and delusional racists, like you.
AlphaLiberal said...
What is this, a Nabisco warehouse?
Sure are a lot of crackers around here!
Well, we know where the shades of Oscar Wilde and Noel Coward reside.
"The only inconsistencies are to sad and delusional racists, like you."
See, this is what's wrong with Democrats. They don't want debate. They want to shut down free speech by calling people names - just like they called Trump a "birther" instead of addressing the issue on its merits.
Trump wasn't a "birther." Trump said, and was correct, that it was odd that Barack Obama wouldn't release this document that he always had the power to release. That he had it within his power to release it all along and why didn't he just release the damn thing?
The reason Obama wouldn't release it is that he's a dickhead. And people don't like dickheads. And it became increasingly obvious (thanks to Trump) that the only reason Barack Obama wouldn't produce his papers is that he's a dickhead. There was no other possible explanation.
So once that became obvious to everyone it started hurting Obama's numbers. So he released the document, threw it in our faces like we don't have a right to see his fucking papers or something.
Well fuck Barack Obama. If he wants to be president, he has to show his fucking papers ... just like we do when we apply for our jobs.
He ain't nothin' special.
As Trump so ably proved today.
The bottom line is that all those white Republicans won't be voting for the black Democrat because he's black.
And all those white independents won't be voting for the black guy this time because he's still black.
Scottie - "First you say you "feel" it is (big surprise there). Then you make the statement that it IS."
Centering your point in silly nitpicking of terminology or word choice is just another way of saying you have no real argument.
When I say that I "feel" that it is, it's obviously a personal "opinion"...that it IS.
Not all criticism of the president is based in racism, but some of it is, and in this case;
I "feel"...and "believe"...that the birthism and muslim insanity is indeed based in a form of racism.
Defending racism is a waste of your time, Scottie.
So fuck off.
Speaking of crackers, why do so many Liberals choose to live and raise their families in such a non-diverse State as Wisconsin? A hatred and fear of minorities, obviously.
Not to speak for somebody else, but I believe that commenter "James" identifies as a black conservative living in Wisconsin, now that dude is on an island.
Were the allegations that President Chester A. Arthur was actually born in Canada, also motivated by racism?
"And all those white independents won't be voting for the black guy this time because he's still black."
NPR's resident Racist-Radar has already predicted, two years out, that this will be the most racist election ever held in the history of America.
They've already written the headlines for when Barack Obama loses because they know he's going to lose.
MarkG said..."The bottom line is that all those white Republicans won't be voting for the black Democrat because he's black.
And all those white independents won't be voting for the black guy this time because he's still black."
You got part of that right, but you can bet on this:
Obama will beat any of the fools the GOP dangles in front of the American voters.
How many of the posters here, other than good ol' regular teabagger suck up, Crack Head...are black?
Me. I'm a transracial. If you dare laugh at that, you are a hating hater full of hate.
I asked the question because I always find deep discussions of "racism" via mostly snow white teabaggers so illuminating.
I always find deep discussions of "racism" via overwhelmingly snow white liberals so illuminating myself.
"Were the allegations that President Chester A. Arthur was actually born in Canada, also motivated by racism?"
He wasn't Canadian (they're OK).
Authur was a mick; a fucking paddy. Goddamn Irish prick.
At least he kicked out the Chinese though. Had that going for him.
Jon "Were the allegations that President Chester A. Arthur was actually born in Canada, also motivated by racism?"
Geeee, Jon...got anything a tad more current to throw into the mix?
Did anybody also insinuate that he was a Muslim or a Kenyan?
Duh.
"How many of the posters here, other than good ol' regular teabagger suck up, Crack Head...are black?"
I'm a black transgenered lesbian trapped in a white gay man's body.
I'm so confused I pee in the sink.
So stop fucking hating on me, you racist homophobe.
Freeman - "Me. I'm a transracial. If you dare laugh at that, you are a hating hater full of hate."
Good for you!!
But I said this: "I asked the question because I always find deep discussions of "racism" via mostly snow white teabaggers so illuminating."
Note the word "mostly?"
But, aren't we ALL, to some degree... "transracial?"
Ut - You're actually more of a racist fool.
Defending racism is a waste of your time, Scottie.
And painting with ridiculously large brush strokes with nothing but you're feelings is a waste of everyone else's. Typical liberal claptrap, though. At least you're consistent with your memes.
I never doubted he was born in Hawaii, but I was surprised that none of the reasons I suspected were true (that it listed his birth as illegitimate, that it list him with his mothers maiden name and he never officially changed him, that it listed religion as muslim.
You know what? Republicans are racist! Just look at how they've destroyed millions of black families by warehousing them in filthy housing projects so as to guarantee an electoral advantage in big cities. Oh wait, that's not the Republicans.
But the Republicans are still the ones desperate to spend millions of Federal dollars destroying African-Americans in the womb, right? Right?
I remember when Douglas Wilder was elected governor of Virginia. A black columnist in WaPo said that whites were racist voters because 60% of them voted for Wilder's white opponent. The fact that 95% of blacks voted for Wilder wasn't deemed worthy of mention. That's how lefties do math.
Lincol Dolt - "But the Republicans are still the ones desperate to spend millions of Federal dollars destroying African-Americans in the womb, right? Right?"
Republicans don't get abortions?
Why not concentrate on your own body and leave the ability to have a personal "choice" to individuals.
Mark - How long have you been a racist?
Wow! 345+ comments on this thread ... earth shaking stuff, eh? All we really need to know is that Obama finally produced the real deal when he was contacted by Big Sis & the ICE team!!
singleton - Does your birth certificate list your religion?
So, we have posters here who STILL claim Bush was liable for 9/11 over a vague threat in a PDB 10 YEARS AGO are whining that somebody has absurd burdens for proof?
I guess the routine mocking of Mick isn't proof enough that we don't buy into the conspiracy
Aridog - Thanks, we needed another racist in the thread.
About the race issue David Frum, a Republican conservative, puts it this way: Now the more haunting question: How did this poisonous and not very subtly racist allegation get such a grip on our conservative movement and our Republican party? Yes I wonder why it has such a grip on the imagination of so many folks?
Why not concentrate on your own body and leave the ability to have a personal "choice" to individuals.
Absolutely. Including baby individuals not yet born.
How did this poisonous and not very subtly racist allegation get such a grip on our conservative movement and our Republican party? Yes I wonder why it has such a grip on the imagination of so many folks?
Because it has served the political agenda of the Republican Party and their scorched earth tactics.
That is all.
"About the race issue David Frum, a Republican conservative,..."
A Republican CONSERVATIVE? I don't think you know what that word means. Either that, or you've never bothered to actually read Frum.
This "discussion" has become a Yankees/Red Sox screamfest.
LOL I kid you not, someone on Facebook just told me to go back to Moveon.org where I'd be more comfortable because I said that there is no reason to believe that this long form birth certificate is fake.
Yes, I'm sure I'd be very well received in the Moveon.org crowd. Kind of like that "Progressive Parents" playgroup that kicked me out after finding my blog.
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am...
Or should I say Arsenal/Man U screamfest for you Vicki
Freeman Hunt "LOL I kid you not, someone on Facebook just told me to go back to Moveon.org where I'd be more comfortable because I said that there is no reason to believe that this long form birth certificate is fake."
What is it about that comment that confuses you?
The teabaggers and far right just assume that if you believe anything positive about or that is in the president's favor, you must be nothing more than a left leaning American.
Just like what one finds here.
Don't act like you don't understand that.
Lincolntf - Youre actually trying to say that David Frum is NOT a conservative?
Duh.
Fortunately for the country, the "racist" angle isn't gonna fly in 2012. The country has seen what this bumbling idiot is capable of and they want him gone, fast. Doesn't matter if he's green, blue or plaid, the man just plain sucks at his job.
Frum is NOT a conservative. He's Kathleen Parker without the dick.
Freeman - "Absolutely. Including baby individuals not yet born."
So, Freeman, are you saying that if you found yourself in a situation where you had to make such a "choice," possibly relating to being raped or incest or for medical reasons that would jeopardize your own life...you'd feel comfortable allowing someone other than yourself (maybe some politician using the issue as selling point for his or her campaign) to make that decision?
Is that what you're saying?
Jeremy, I'm a tea party supporter, so your branding the tea party as a bunch of birthers doesn't hold.
Also, it hasn't been the tea partiers that I've heard going on about birtherism. It's a subset of the less politically active, fuss-at-home, click-forward-on-baseless-emails conservatives who go on about birtherism issues.
And yes, Jeremy, I expect politicians to make laws against killing people, even inconvenient people.
Well we are well north of Palin-thread territory which means enlightenment has long passed.
I will say to Roesch that the Vince Foster suicide plot discussion was equally crazy and, son of a gun, the President at that time was white
Conspiracy craziness knows no bounds and certainly not our the usual labels. I know labeling "birthers" as racist is reassuring to liberal sensibilities, but its giving racists a bad rap.
Jeremy, your goal for health care reform is to have others control health care, especially pols up for elections and all.
Interesting scare tactic.
R-V, any theories as to why 52% of Dems felt Bush either personally caused 9/11 or just let it happen?
"Extra points to Obama for correct use of (a form of) the frequently misused word "bemused.""
Well, you know, he is sooooooooo smart. I mean, after all, isn't that what we have been hearing for years? So why are you giving him points for something that shouldn't be such a big deal for him?
Or, is this just another way of you saying, "I think he is sooooooo smart?"
More hard working teabagging Republicans respond to president Obama's release of his birth certificate:
Donald Trump - "I want to look at it, but I hope it is true so that we can get on to much more important matters, so the press can stop asking me questions." (Right)
Birther queen Orly Taitz - Says the document seems too politically correct to be written in 1961. She plans to continue pursuing the origin of Obama's birth, claiming he is a "non-natural citizen."
Newt (who names their kid after a lizard) Gingrich - "The whole thing is strange."
John Boehner would like to move on. (no pun intended?)
Andrew Breitbart - "I'm ecstatic that the tea party made its focus on the economy and the constitution," said Breitbart, "and avoided making a sideshow part of its righteous cause."
(Yeah...right)
Sarah Palin flip-flopping: Earlier in April, Palin appeared on Fox News and gave a thumbs-up to Trump's "investigation," and said of Obama, "obviously there’s something there that the president doesn’t want people to see on that birth certificate."
But now: "Now, don’t let the WH distract you w/the birth crt..."
Yeah, it's the White House who is driving the birthism insanity...)
Birther czar Jospeh Farah - In August 2009, on Obama's birthday, Farah offered a $10,000 charity incentive for the document's release. All Obama has to do to see that donation made is to release it publicly."
(Let's see the check...)
Does anyone here think that The Donald is a jerk? He is now demanding that we see Obama's transcripts. Have we ever seen any transcripts from any other President or Presidential candidate? Let me answer that, NO!!!
Here is a copy of a long form birth certificate from the same hospital just the day before Erkle was born that I posted back on 4/10/11 at 5:41pm:
http://img155.imageshack.us/i/hawaiianbirthcertificat.jpg/
You've already seen what the White House has sent out. I am satisfied. I had my niggling doubts, but the issue is put to rest for me once and for all. Now we can move on and attack this incompetent frauds character, ideology, and policies further.
Victoria, I remember seeing both Kerry and Bush's transcripts (after the election). Virtually every President eventually releases all of his non-confidential papers to the press. Read a few Presidential biographies.
Does anyone here think that The Donald is a jerk?
Of course he's a jerk. It's almost his entire schtick.
victoria is not noted for her ability to read, reason or think clearly. No need - she is a liberal.
victoria said...
Does anyone here think that The Donald is a jerk? He is now demanding that we see Obama's transcripts. Have we ever seen any transcripts from any other President or Presidential candidate? Let me answer that, NO!!!
That's actually false. Notwithstanding that you are a complete idiot. Trump isn't just a jerk, he's discredited on this issue. Move on, nag.
Lincolntf "Victoria, I remember seeing both Kerry and Bush's transcripts (after the election). "virtually every president" releasing his transcripts.
Show me evidence of where Bush voluntarily released his college transcripts. (Leaked?)
And provide a link to where "virtually every president" relaeasing his transcripts.
Especially Ronnie "The Saint" Reagan.
paminwi - You are suuuuccccchhhh...an asshole.
Freeman Hunt "And yes, Jeremy, I expect politicians to make laws against killing people, even inconvenient people."
That wasn't the question.
If you're going to take a stand, have the guts to answer the question as asked.
damikesc "Jeremy, your goal for health care reform is to have others control health care, especially pols up for elections and all."
That's a ridiculous statement.
Boy, the GOP does have some fucking idiots in their ranks.
First, they claim Obama wasn't born in the US.
Then, they ask why doesn't he release his long form birth certificate. [When they never required it of any other politician, ever].
Now they say Obama purposely didn't release the long form because it made Republicans look bad.
Are you fucking kidding me?
The fact that this was ever even an issue makes Republicans look stupid. Pathetic.
The mark of a conspiracy theory is that there is no piece of information that could disprove it.
Conspiracy theories are non-falsifiable.
Many of you are racists and many of you others are apologists for racism.
AL - go fuck yourself with a rusty saw.
BTW, accusing someone of racism is a declaration of war. Nothing less.
Conspiracy theories are non-falsifiable.
Except that fake moon landing thing Whoopi Goldberg maintains. Shouldn't there still be flags and footprints and dog fights up there?
Not so fast, True Believers in the One: This thing is fake.
victoria said...
Does anyone here think that The Donald is a jerk? He is now demanding that we see Obama's transcripts. Have we ever seen any transcripts from any other President or Presidential candidate? Let me answer that, NO!!!
=====================
Yes, in the name of transparency, many candidates have released health records, key academic facts, academic class rank, body of work.
Not so Obama. Starting with his birth cert but covering far more important matters like what his standing at Columbia was to get into Harvard Law. He has less of a paper trail than Souter or Harriet Meirs.
Progressive Jews of the media have long extolled their favorite Democrats as genius uberminds to pitch them to sell them the masses. Goes back to Adalai Stevenson in history. Humphrey was a genius, Carter, too. As were Gore, Kerry, Obama...
In most cases, not true at all. Bill Clinton was a very bright guy, but not Al Gore. Chuck Schumer is very smart, but genius boy Edwards was no genius. Eric Holder is an affirmative action moron.
Now they say Obama purposely didn't release the long form because it made Republicans look bad.
That isn't new. Conservatives and libertarians were saying that all along.
Yes the projecting-racist concern trolls are out in force today.
They, armed with their broad brushes provide further proof that their echo chamber is holding a steady vacuum.
Jeremy, racist much? 2 black dogs for an avatar? Oh you are too cool for school aren't you???
Now that Donald Trump has buried the "birther" issue, how's about some lofty Democrat steps up and kicks Andrew Sullivan in the nuts so we can bury the Trig birther issue all in one week?
Palin 2012!
It seems like political genius is the only kind being waged in the White House! While releasing the PDF containing the long-form birth certificate, they also modified the PDF to include multiple layers of information. Some of these PDF layers contain some of the black ink text, while different layers contain, another portion. Does this prove a "doctored document"? My opinion is that the PDF is of an original document, but that document was decomposed in the PDF on purpose to provide continued fodder for debate. It tips the balance to keep the debate at a 75% to 25% (or so) level. That keeps the straw man for association with "crazy folks", while maintaining a useful target.
Why can't he be this good at lowering the price of gas?
Bob - "Why can't he be this good at lowering the price of gas?"
President Obama controls the price of gas?
Did Bush do the same?
chickelit "The Trig Birther Issue??"
Get out much?
When was the last time you read anything about it?
Don't Tread 2012 - "Oh you are too cool for school aren't you???"
What are you, eighty years old?
Fuck off.
Freeman Hunt "Now they say Obama purposely didn't release the long form because it made Republicans look bad."
And it worked, too.
Look at how stupid the GOP, and the teabagging birthers have looked.
*And please, no more of the teabaggers not being birthers bullshit.
When was the last time you read anything about it?
Stuef it up your ass, Jeremy!
@Jeremy
Ooops! I forgot. You're probably into that sort of thing.
I think we should compromise on the transcripts; release Michelle's and we'll call it even.
Which reminds me, doesn't Harvard Law have tests or something?
Meanwhile, it looks like Trump has Obama exactly where he wants him - by the balls.
chickelit - When was the last time you read anything about it, dumb-ass?
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