"... flared for a second straight day, with young men rampaging through the streets of this southern capital, flying Taliban flags and wielding sticks. Nine people were killed and 81 injured in the disturbances... [S]everal thousand young men, shouting slogans calling for death to Americans and to the Karzai government, were still rioting after several hours on Saturday, setting tires aflame throughout the city, burning cars and attacking journalists trying to cover the disorder...."
The NYT reports.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Posts
373 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 373 of 373Who here thinks Dr Tiller was responsible for his own murder? He'd been warned and everything.
Liberal Logic 101:
Christians are all bigots since one christian country in a backwater in Africa is considering anti-homosexual laws. And yet all disparaging comments about muslims are also proof of bigotry even as nearly all muslim countries have similarly draconian anti homosexual laws.
FLS: "Muslims truly believe their holy book is holy, while Christians do not."
Jews love the Torah... especially the Sefer Torah (you know.. the big, beautiful, handwritten scrolls used at services) but somehow, no one has ever been afraid of destroying or desecrating a Torah... including many Muslims.
No matter how holy one thinks a book is, it does not justify killing those who burn a copy of it and it certainly doesn't justify killing someone totally unrelated to said book burning.
Lol I love how you tell another commenter to fuck off just for offering their opinion but then you soft roll a critism of murderous 7th century barbarians as having a "problematic culture".
Lol. I love how you pretend that mine or any other Westerner's opprobrium of Islam is going to do any more good than if that criticism were to come from another Muslim.
But it's all good. I'm sure you've got another war in the works. This time not just to "win" hearts and minds, but to control them. What will the price tag list at, this time?
It sounds like a grand adventure -- especially from a likely right-wing fanatic who would probably bitch about the nominal price tag of a much more widely supported and much more limited humanitarian intervention in Libya.
36fsfiend --
Even your lifestyle, whatever it is, is an affront to Islamic Rage Boy and his cohorts.
Are you making all the necessary changes to your life so as to ease the efforts in AF? If not, you're being a hypocrite.
"Our Constitution and the rights it protects have no influence on the Afghans. They could care less what our Constitution states or our rights. Knowing how they will react to the burning of the Koran, do you think that is responsible?
Again, Gen Petraeus' stated:
"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," Gen Petraeus said in a statement to US media. "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems.""
You cut out my question about the Danish cartoonists you coward. Follow your conclusion to it's ultimate nihilistic end where we must taylor our behaviors and consciences to satisfy the sensitivities of murderous Muslim radicals.
Liberal Logic 101:
Christians are all bigots since one christian country in a backwater in Africa is considering anti-homosexual laws. And yet all disparaging comments about muslims are also proof of bigotry even as nearly all muslim countries have similarly draconian anti homosexual laws.
Idiot logic 101: Proof of the superiority of Western knowledge and tolerance is demonstrated by how much hatred we show for non-Western societies. Not criticism, not harsh words. Hatred.
The law as passed in Uganda was the culmination of hard-fought efforts by U.S. evangelical groups. Otherwise it wouldn't have been passed. Read up on it, you backward, ignorant Muslim.
"Lol. I love how you pretend that mine or any other Westerner's opprobrium of Islam is going to do any more good than if that criticism were to come from another Muslim. "
Who said it needed to do any good? It just shows where you're coming from, and how limp your cultural Marxist worldview is when it clashes with reality.
"But it's all good. I'm sure you've got another war in the works. This time not just to "win" hearts and minds, but to control them. What will the price tag list at, this time?
It sounds like a grand adventure -- especially from a likely right-wing fanatic who would probably bitch about the nominal price tag of a much more widely supported and much more limited humanitarian intervention in Libya."
You admonish me for wanting to get another war on then in the next breath you defend Jugears Mcfuckstick's illegal war? Guilty conscience much?
For the record dipshit, the Afghans started the war with us.
SYNOVA Rocks!
Gen Petraeus has a job to do and I don't blame him for saying what he feels like he needs to say. He is a general officer trying to win a war.
I, on the other hand am an American citizen who will be damned before I willingly live according to the norms of a foreign and inferior culture.
Ritmo referred to it as a "problematic culture".
Yeah, sure that must be it. Tell that to the family of the UN vicims.
Who said it needed to do any good?
Thank you for finally admitting that you right-wing fanatics love supporting things that do no actual good. Finally, an admission!
It's all really about reinforcing belief, isn't it? The actual outcome never really matters.
And the bigger the price tag, the more desperate and pointless the effort, the harder your dick gets.
So, how long will your pride demand that we stay in Afghanistan? Why not just annex the territory? Given all the financial support it requires, it could become the Alaska of federally financed dependencies. Who knows, maybe the next Sarah Palin will arise from a veiled silhouette in Kandahar and demand that that she never really wanted all the money she took for all those roads and bridges we built.
What a tool you are! Good for a laugh and for exposing how hollow and useless the right-wing is. I've enjoyed the comedy show you're putting on today!
"Idiot logic 101: Proof of the superiority of Western knowledge and tolerance is demonstrated by how much hatred we show for non-Western societies. Not criticism, not harsh words. Hatred. "
Dude, given the insults you regularly spew out, your sense of proportion as to what constitutes criticism versus hatred is in serious question.
You seem to be pretty big on hate from whaT I can tell, so why isn't hate for Muslim radicals appropriate in your eyes?
It doesn't have anything to do with hurt Muslim feelings. It has everything to do with you trying to circle the square of cultural Marxism in your head, and make sense of the bullshit oppressor/oppressed paradigm that you so desperately need to cling to.
Yeah, sure that must be it. Tell that to the family of the UN vicims.
You first. Especially seeing as how happy you are that they at least get to be used in your propaganda war. I'm sure their lives weren't worth anything to the families other than for how much breast-beating they got a suburban Philadelphian named "A.J. Lynch" to do.
Yep, that way, they know the deaths will not have been in vain. Thanks a bunch, A.J.!
"So, how long will your pride demand that we stay "Afghanistan? Why not just annex the territory? Given all the financial support it requires, it could become the Alaska of federally financed dependencies. Who knows, maybe the next Sarah Palin will arise from a veiled silhouette in Kandahar and demand that that she never really wanted all the money she took for all those roads and bridges we built. "
Lol did you fry a logic chip trying to process this story. Beep boop muderous Muslims... does not compute.... switching to default routine...Sarah Palin Sarah Palin Sarah Palin
"What a tool you are! Good for a laugh and for exposing how hollow and useless the right-wing is. I've enjoyed the comedy show you're putting on today!"
This whole post reeks of butthurt. I'm sorry I made you cry, but don't worry. That pain is the truth seeping into your brain. Don't resist. Just let it happen.
I don't get it:
A few marginal Christians from the USA go to Africa and preach on the horrors of homosexuality and the Ugandans are all up in arms to hang all the gays they can find.
Yet pastor Jones shows the evils of Islam by burning a Koran and yet the Afghanis are not only refraining from renouncing Islam but getting all fighty to boot!
What a crazy world we live in.
You seem to be pretty big on hate from whaT I can tell, so why isn't hate for Muslim radicals appropriate in your eyes?
It's not about being appropriate. It's about how much of their own sorry shortcomings you remind me exists in a culture that I thought was supposed to be superior.
It doesn't have anything to do with hurt Muslim feelings. It has everything to do with you trying to circle the square of cultural Marxism in your head, and make sense of the bullshit oppressor/oppressed paradigm that you so desperately need to cling to.
I've never read Marx and I couldn't care less about Muslim/Arab self-oppression/self-pity (although it does seem to mirror the handy victimology espoused by a right-wing that complains about not being able to dominate a media enterprise other than one as big and pervasive as Rupert Murdoch's empire).
The fact is, even when you guys don't exactly act like them, you think just like them - and I don't mind pointing that out. Every culture has its crazies, but I'm glad that ours are less empowered and better muzzled than theirs. Relegating you guys to fighting pointless "culture wars" and simply killing some physicians every now and then is better than what they go through, I will admit.
This whole post reeks of butthurt. I'm sorry I made you cry, but don't worry. That pain is the truth seeping into your brain. Don't resist. Just let it happen.
So, other than your typically Republican sado-masochistic view of life and insistence that what is easy to believe is therefore true, what other articles of belief did you want to spew?
Ritmo:
Unlike you , I won't rationalize the behavior of these barbarians who killed the UN workers.
And in two comments on this thread, I made it clear I want us out of Iraq & Afghan because it ain't worth it. So to call me a propagandist is way off base- of course, that is where you spend most of your time.
Explanations =/= Tolerant rationalization.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
"It's not about being appropriate. It's about how much of their own sorry shortcomings you remind me exists in a culture that I thought was supposed to be superior. "
Cultural relatavism is the last fig leaf of a confused cultural Marxist.
"I've never read Marx and I couldn't care less about Muslim/Arab self-oppression/self-pity (although it does seem to mirror the handy victimology espoused by a right-wing that complains about not being able to dominate a media enterprise other than one as big and pervasive as Rupert Murdoch's empire). "
You don't have to read Marx, the left is steeped in cultural Marxism and has been since Alinsky and before. You been marinating in it and the proof is right above with your desperate attempts at cultural relatavism. Beep boop American Taliban American Taliban American Taliban.
"So, other than your typically Republican sado-masochistic view of life and insistence that what is easy to believe is therefore true, what other articles of belief did you want to spew?"
Lol your programming runs deep. "resist obvious truths, only a dullard likes obvious truths. A clever man will find counterintuitive and fact free truths!"
That pain in your frontal lobe, it's the truth still trying to get in. Better drive it away fast with some self flaggelation.
I know Jones had the right to burn the Koran and I know there is an element of hardline Islamists who are always looking for an excuse to go kill a bunch of people. But burning the Koran was a dumb thing for Terrye Jones to do. The Taliban and Jones both got what they wanted.
The only people who are responsible for the killings are the men who committed the acts..that means that Jones is not legally responsible and it also means that not every Muslim is responsible.
Cultural relatavism is the last fig leaf of a confused cultural Marxist.
Culture is a human universal. Next thing you know, "SP" will tell me that my reminding him that Arabic is a language or that Islam is a religion is a way to equate Arabic with English or Islam with Christianity.
You don't have to read Marx, the left is steeped in cultural Marxism and has been since Alinsky and before.
You don't have to read The Protocols of the Elders of Zion to tell me that this Alinsky guy came from that tribe called JEW! Disrespectful, meddling radicals to the last man, they are always subverting the established, permanently fixed order of things.
All the gentiles I know assure me that God must hate them with a vengeance.
You keep trying to tell me how different you are from Muslim fanatics. So why do you hate Jews with the same senseless fixation that these terrorist Muslims do, O Immortal One?
"Explanations =/= Tolerant rationalization.
Lather, rinse, repeat."
Actually I haven't seen you try to offer up an explanation for their murderous behavior, I've just seen you try to circle the square of cultural Marxism. You must defend the Muslims radicals , they are victims of historical oppression! You cannot defend the Muslims radicals, they are oppressor! I know, offer up some weak tea condemnation of Muslim radicals and then compare them to righties to make myself feel better! That's the ticket.
It's called a neuroses, when one stimulus provokes two or more mental responses.
It's been nearly 10 years since 9/11.
I'm still waiting for the waves of moderate Muslims to reclaim Islam from the barbarians.
One is forced to draw certain terrible conclusions by their lack of response.
But there it is.
SPImmortal's feelings toward Alinsky or Marx = Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's feelings toward Daniel Pearl.
O SPImmortal, since you hate Jews like Alinsky and Marx so much, why is it so hard for you to find common ground with your fellow Muslims? They hate Jews, too. They even hate the liberal media establishments that they work for.
Sounds like you've got a lot in common with those guys. Sheesh. Are you sure you're not one of them?
"dbp said...
I don't get it:
A few marginal Christians from the USA go to Africa and preach on the horrors of homosexuality and the Ugandans are all up in arms to hang all the gays they can find.
Yet pastor Jones shows the evils of Islam by burning a Koran and yet the Afghanis are not only refraining from renouncing Islam but getting all fighty to boot!
What a crazy world we live in.
4/2/11 4:17 PM"
Jones was told time and again that this could blow up into a major incident that could get people killed and yet he went right ahead and burned that Koran anyway. We already knew there were crazy people over there, he did not show us anything we did not already know...when it hit the fan and people started dying, his response was...this proves my point..the guy just sounds all broke up about it now doesn't he?
Yes, there were Afghanis who went nuts, but there were also millions of Aghanis who did not respond at all. Do we give them some credit or just pretend they don't exist?
You must defend the Muslims radicals , they are victims of historical oppression! You cannot defend the Muslims radicals, they are oppressor!
Actually I didn't defend them. I excoriated both them and their fellow Muslim reactionary, SPImmortal.
"Culture is a human universal. Next thing you know, "SP" will tell me that my reminding him that Arabic is a language or that Islam is a religion is a way to equate Arabic with English or Islam with Christianity. "
I was talking about you insinuating that our culture wa not superior to Afghan culture. culural relatavism. What the fuck are you talking about?
"You don't have to read The Protocols of the Elders of Zion to tell me that this Alinsky guy came from that tribe called JEW! Disrespectful, meddling radicals to the last man, they are always subverting the established, permanently fixed order of things.
All the gentiles I know assure me that God must hate them with a vengeance. "
Lol holy shit. All gentiles you know assure you that god hates Jews with a vengeance. What is wrong with you you lunatic?
"It sounds like a grand adventure -- especially from a likely right-wing fanatic who would probably bitch about the nominal price tag of a much more widely supported and much more limited humanitarian intervention in Libya."
I see. You've abandoned the arguement and are now begining operation weaksauce.
Oligonicella,
Do you have loved ones in Afghanistan right now?
"Yes, there were Afghanis who went nuts, but there were also millions of Aghanis who did not respond at all. Do we give them some credit or just pretend they don't exist?"
Third choice:
Blame them for supporting the barbarians.
Not to vote is to vote. See "Kitty Genovese".
I was talking about you insinuating that our culture wa not superior to Afghan culture. culural relatavism. What the fuck are you talking about?
What the fuck are YOU talking about?! I've always claimed that Western civilization was/is superior to everything else. Hello, literacy! Where are you!?
Does reading get in the way of just mindlessly believing whatever you want to believe? You are seriously whacked. Go on some more about Alinsky and Marx and those other Jewish agitators, why don't you?
Pogo:
For one thing, even a moderate Muslim would be insulted if the Koran was burned..if you really want to make common ground with them..burning the Koran is not a smart thing to do...for another those people who took to the streets carrying their Taliban flags are not speaking for the millions of Afghanis who did not kill anyone or take part in the riot..on one hand we say that Jones is not responsible for the killings because he did not actually commit the crimes, fine, this is true..but it is also true for the millions and millions of Muslims in Afghanistan and throughout the region who have shown no reaction at all to this incident.
"SPImmortal's feelings toward Alinsky or Marx = Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's feelings toward Daniel Pearl.
O SPImmortal, since you hate Jews like Alinsky and Marx so much, why is it so hard for you to find common ground with your fellow Muslims? They hate Jews, too. They even hate the liberal media establishments that they work for.
Sounds like you've got a lot in common with those guys. Sheesh. Are you sure you're not one of them?"
Operation weaksauce phase 2 in effect.
Damn you must be really mad at me. Tell them why you mad, son.
dbp,
"Gen Petraeus has a job to do and I don't blame him for saying what he feels like he needs to say. He is a general officer trying to win a war."
Yes, he is trying to win a war. That why he say what he did.
"I, on the other hand am an American citizen who will be damned before I willingly live according to the norms of a foreign and inferior culture."
When are you on the way over to fight for your way of life?
quote 1:
"It's not about being appropriate. It's about how much of their own sorry shortcomings you remind me exists in a culture that I thought wWAS SUPPOSED TO BE SUPERIOR.
"
quote 2:
"What the fuck are YOU talking about?! I've always claimed that Western civilization was/is superior to everything else. Hello, literacy! Where are you!?"
Do you know what insinuate means?You lose again, bitch. Do you think you can make a good point just by sheer volume of drivel?
If it isn't obvious, SPImmortal has declared his Islamist anti-Semitic creds by proclaiming his hatred of Saul Alinsky and Karl Marx. Sure, he'd like to claim that he hates them for other reasons. But we all know that Jews get in the way of the Muslim caliphate that SPImmortal and OBL would like to declare. Just ask Sheikh Mohammed. He killed Daniel Pearl and proclaimed it as a way to dedicate Islam to vanquishing the sins of a decadent, radical West. In this he and SP are brothers in the struggle to save civilization from Jewish radicals and their sins against civilization.
""I, on the other hand am an American citizen who will be damned before I willingly live according to the norms of a foreign and inferior culture."
When are you on the way over to fight for your way of life?"
It's all our way of lives shitheel, including your worthless ass. Who do you think puts the muscle in these wars, leftist jerkoffs like yourself?
Pogo:
Who says they support the barbarians? Afghanis risk their lives every day to stand up to the Taliban, they have to live and die in that country...meanwhile we have some publicity hound like Jones here in Florida doing something stupid that only helps the Taliban.
"...even a moderate Muslim would be insulted if the Koran was burned"
So what?
They offer no tolerance to others. How can you demand tolerance for them?
"...if you really want to make common ground with them..burning the Koran is not a smart thing to do..."
We have little or no common ground, I'm afraid.
No one I know kills gays and adulterers and raped teenage girls and infidels and people who burned their holy book.
They're barbarians, stuck in the middle ages.
"those people who took to the streets carrying their Taliban flags are not speaking for the millions of Afghanis who did not kill anyone or take part in the riot..."
Of course they speak for them. They make all their rules and enforce them mercilessly. They speak not when the innocent are killed. They feed and clothe and house and teach the barbarians to hate and kill.
Moderates?
Bah.
When are you on the way over to fight for your way of life?
Not that it really matters, but I joined the Marine Corps when I was 18. You?
SPImmortal,
You shouldn't jump to conclusions. BTW, what's your combat experience?
Let the record reflect that if you question SP's intention to infect our Western culture with faulty thinking, by rhetorically saying that it "was supposed to be superior", you are thereby actually declaring that you BELIEVE, HAVE BELIEVED and ALWAYS WILL BELIEVE that Western culture is inferior to/equivalent to any competitors or antagonists.
Go back to the logic course, cuckoo bird. Western civ started with the Greeks and by now Socrates would have roasted your ass over the coals and sold you off as a lady-boy slave to your better educated Hellenic superiors.
You are either really ignorant or really dumb. But still providing me with a good laugh or two.
"If it isn't obvious, SPImmortal has declared his Islamist anti-Semitic creds by proclaiming his hatred of Saul Alinsky and Karl Marx. Sure, he'd like to claim that he hates them for other reasons. But we all know that Jews get in the way of the Muslim caliphate that SPImmortal and OBL would like to declare. Just ask Sheikh Mohammed. He killed Daniel Pearl and proclaimed it as a way to dedicate Islam to vanquishing the sins of a decadent, radical West. In this he and SP are brothers in the struggle to save civilization from Jewish radicals and their sins against civilization."
Damn son, why are you embarrassing yourself? Shit, I'm embarrassed for you. You gonna try and find out where I live or make some comments about my mom?
It's over, you got schooled. It happens. Try and let a little more of the truth seep into your skull next time.
dbp,
24 years in the Air Force.
" Afghanis risk their lives every day to stand up to the Taliban, they have to live and die in that country"
Terrye, I agree Jones is an idiot.
But so what?
He probably has 8 supporters in total.
The Afghans are centuries behind the rest of the world. Islam promises to keep them there, Taliban or not.
36fsfiend,
It is the job of our military to protect our way of life, not the other way around.
I knew this when I enlisted and our military men and women know that too.
"24 years in the Air Force."
Good outfit, the Air Force. I was the black sheep: Mom, dad brother and sister all joined the USAF.
dbp,
"It is the job of our military to protect our way of life, not the other way around.
"I knew this when I enlisted and our military men and women know that too."
Also, here. However, when the 4-star in command of the theater of operations states:
It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," ... "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems."
and
"Not just here, but everywhere in the world, we are engaged with the Islamic community"
and
"There is a risk that it may also have a negative impact on security for our troops,"
Then I'm for the troops and against the Pastor who wouldn't be burning Korans if his own son or daughter was on the frontline over there.
dbp,
"Good outfit, the Air Force. I was the black sheep: Mom, dad brother and sister all joined the USAF."
Are any still in?
I remember when Newsweek ran that silly story about the Koran being flushed at Gitmo...there were riots then too and conservatives were all over them..for one thing the story was nonsense, for another it just put the troops at risk for no good reason.
Is this the same as the Mohammed cartoons? No, I don't think so. For one thing, I don't think the men who did the cartoons really thought people would die...I think Terry Jones counted on it.
"Let the record reflect that if you question SP's intention to infect our Western culture with faulty thinking, by rhetorically saying that it "was supposed to be superior", you are thereby actually declaring that you BELIEVE, HAVE BELIEVED and ALWAYS WILL BELIEVE that Western culture is inferior to/equivalent to any competitors or antagonists."
You used my quite logical personal opinions as a jumping off point to try and suggest that Western civ is no greater than radical Muslim civ, when the two subjects have nothing to do with each other. Again, you tried to slyly insinuate because you didn't have the balls to outright state, but you wanted to keep the neurotic cultural Marxist part of your brain happy 'cause these topics make it very unhappy.
"Go back to the logic course, cuckoo bird. Western civ started with the Greeks and by now Socrates would have roasted your ass over the coals and sold you off as a lady-boy slave to your better educated Hellenic superiors. "
It's too bad that Socrates ain't here and instead we're stuck with you and your neurotic cultural Marcism and tranny fantasies instead, huh?
Really, you should go back to your weaksauce "SP is an anti-semite" schtick, it was better tahn this garbage.
Pogo:
So what? He was told time and again that this would be blown out of proportion and that it would be used for propaganda purposes...and he still did it..and I also think that he hopes he will become a big hero over here. That means followers and money.
"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," ... "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems."
and
"Not just here, but everywhere in the world, we are engaged with the Islamic community"
and
"There is a risk that it may also have a negative impact on security for our troops,"
Then I'm for the troops and against the Pastor who wouldn't be burning Korans if his own son or daughter was on the frontline over there."
Again you're evading the central point. The troops are in harms way precisely because we have a right to speak our consciences and they want to keep it that way. If we go to Afghanistan and then we have to watch what we say and do, then it's not worth it.
When thousands of people get together in a mob to kill someone over pieces of paper being burnt. It's time to ask what is wrong with these people and whether we've been engaged in this war the wrong way or whether it's worth it to be there at all. It's not time to ask if it's a good thing for someone to burn a book on his own property 3000 miles away.
You are trying really hard to miss the lesson here.
Pogo:
I am not a Muslim, I am not defending the Taliban or jihadism or anything of the kind. I am just saying that if you really want to get somewhere with these people burning the Koran will not do you any good..it will not change any minds or convert anyone or convince them of their inferiority and your superior.
I am not saying that I am into killing gay people and I am a woman myself so I am certainly not into stoning women..and yet I have seen a lot of people use this violence to condemn all of these people..and that includes the women whose only hope of a better future is freedom from the likes of the Taliban.
I'm out now. As a civilian, I am under no compulsion to abide by the wishes of any general. Not even ones I like and admire.
SPImmortal:
I don't think anyone is saying that Terry Jones does not have the Constitutional right to burn a Koran..or a flag for that matter. As far as that is concerned Phelps has the Constitutional right to send his crazy followers out to protest at military funerals...but then again someone else has the right to think one or both of them are morons, or charlatans or frauds, or irresponsible trouble makers.
I don't think much of a man like Jones who would ignore the warnings of danger and just assume that if and when it hits the fan he can blame savages and exploit the carnage. He seems like a lousy excuse for a human being to me..but that does not mean he did anything illegal.
"I am not a Muslim, I am not defending the Taliban or jihadism or anything of the kind. I am just saying that if you really want to get somewhere with these people burning the Koran will not do you any good..it will not change any minds or convert anyone or convince them of their inferiority and your superior."
Fuck that noise. Radicals want obesciance. You beat them by standing up to them.
You want us to dress like them, too? Women showing ankle or boob makes them really onery too.
Really this logic is going to get you know where nad just lead to a dead end that makes you look foolish.
SPImmoral
"Again you're evading the central point. The troops are in harms way precisely because we have a right to speak our consciences and they want to keep it that way. If we go to Afghanistan and then we have to watch what we say and do, then it's not worth it.
"When thousands of people get together in a mob to kill someone over pieces of paper being burnt. It's time to ask what is wrong with these people and whether we've been engaged in this war the wrong way or whether it's worth it to be there at all. It's not time to ask if it's a good thing for someone to burn a book on his own property 3000 miles away.
"You are trying really hard to miss the lesson here."
The lesson to me is the Afghans, Taliban and the rest of the Middle East don't give a damn about our Constitution, our rights, our values or beliefs. We knew that before invading. Hell, it's one of primary reasons they attacked us on 9/11.
Now that we have troops over there in harm's way, we should be listening to the words of the 4-star in charge who is trying to win this goddamn thing.
If the Pastor feels so strongly about fighting the hordes of Islam that he couldn't give a shit about adding additional threats to our troops then he should pack his bags and join them.
"I don't think anyone is saying that Terry Jones does not have the Constitutional right to burn a Koran..or a flag for that matter. As far as that is concerned Phelps has the Constitutional right to send his crazy followers out to protest at military funerals...but then again someone else has the right to think one or both of them are morons, or charlatans or frauds, or irresponsible trouble makers."
"I don't think much of a man like Jones who would ignore the warnings of danger and just assume that if and when it hits the fan he can blame savages and exploit the carnage. He seems like a lousy excuse for a human being to me..but that does not mean he did anything illegal."
Exploit the carnage? I think you should realise that he's putting his life on the line. Salman Rushdie had tohide out for many years. The danish cartoonists are still in hiding.
He's not going to get anything out of this.
He may have done it for delusional reasons, but sometimes people do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
If no one can get away with doing this sort of thing then without risking their lives then free speech is threatened by a murdere's veto and that can't be allowed to happen.
Do Americans care about anything as much as Muslims care about the Koran? What if Pastor Jones had wiped his ass at the gravesite of a soldier killed in action with the American flag he took from the coffin?
Or like dipping an image of the crucified Christ in a jar of piss? You mean that sort of disgusting display?
And how many atheist liberal heads were cut off after that?
Terrye,
Where does it stop?
If they're so nuts that some doofus from nowhere burning a Koran causes them to riot, what else will you agree to in order to keep them from rioting?
Will you agree to wear a scarf?
A burka?
Where *exactly* will you draw the line?
"The lesson to me is the Afghans, Taliban and the rest of the Middle East don't give a damn about our Constitution, our rights, our values or beliefs. We knew that before invading. Hell, it's one of primary reasons they attacked us on 9/11."
And we don't care about their tribal customs. It hilarious they attacked us, we conquered them, and then you want us to pay tribute to them? How can our soldiers be safe under such warped conditions, with our own citizens on our own soil on pins and needles for fear of the conquered, rather than Afghans being on pins and needles fearing the conquerors? The more that psychological mindset gets inverted the more danger our troops will be in.
"If the Pastor feels so strongly about fighting the hordes of Islam that he couldn't give a shit about adding additional threats to our troops then he should pack his bags and join them."
Get real, he's an old man and he doesn't have to fight to be able to speak his mind. He's putting himself in great danger, period. If we didn't care about what they might think about our uppity behaviour and made sure that they new they'd better watch THEIR behaviour, then things would be going much better and no one would have to worry about some dude in Florida burning books.
Come on, guys, one nuke.
ONE NUKE!
My skin's almost the same color as theirs:
Come Ooooooooooonnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did any of you hear that Jones had burned the Koran until you read about these riots?
I hadn't, and I'm a pretty big news consumer.
Anybody?
"Did any of you hear that Jones had burned the Koran until you read about these riots?
I hadn't, and I'm a pretty big news consumer.
Anybody?"
Nobody new.
Heck, if the media hadn't made such a big deal over this triviality the first time, nobody would have ever heard about Jerry Jones, period.
SPImmoral,
"And we don't care about their tribal customs. It hilarious they attacked us, we conquered them, and then you want us to pay tribute to them? How can our soldiers be safe under such warped conditions, with our own citizens on our own soil on pins and needles for fear of the conquered, rather than Afghans being on pins and needles fearing the conquerors? The more that psychological mindset gets inverted the more danger our troops will be in."
The Afghans have been living with war on their land for years. They have had numerous invasions over the centuries. So, I don’t feel they have a deep fear of us as conquerors. They don't have our lifestyle and for many of them their faith is the only thing they have. We are not paying them tribute. The leadership is trying not to increase the threat to our troops by offending the customs of these people. If we have some of these people as allies, how does burning the Koran help us?
"Get real, he's an old man and he doesn't have to fight to be able to speak his mind. He's putting himself in great danger, period. If we didn't care about what they might think about our uppity behavior and made sure that they new they'd better watch THEIR behavior, then things would be going much better and no one would have to worry about some dude in Florida burning books."
He’s showboating. He could have dug a pit in his back yard and burn all the Korans he wanted if that’s what gets him off. He’s looking for attention with this trail stunt and the people who will end up paying for it with their blood will be our troops.
@Terrye: I agree with you that the pastor is a self aggrandizing fool whose actions should be condemned and marginalized. But by the same logic should we not form the same opinion of Michael Isikoff of Newsweek who wrote erroneously of the Korans being flushed down the toilets Gitmo. What about the NY Times who kept the Abu Ghraib photos on the front page for weeks? Those photos did as much to fuel the insurgency in Iraq as anything else. The Times did not show the same discretion with these photos as they did of, say, the Edwards affair. What about the current reports in Rolling Stone about the US kill team? That should inspire a few more suicide bomber....Should not all people of good will who are interested in the safety of our troops treat the vainglorious reporters of the NY Times and Rolling Stone with the same contempt that they treat this pastor?
When Christianity had it's reformation and counter-reformation, Christians went back to their founding documents. They re-affirmed that you should treat others like you want to be treated, you should render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God's-IOW separation of church and state, and many other benign things. Islam had it's reformation in the Wahhabi tradition in which it went back to it's original documents and learned to kill the Jews and Christians as Mohamed taught.That's why they're doing this.
"The Afghans have been living with war on their land for years. They have had numerous invasions over the centuries. So, I don’t feel they have a deep fear of us as conquerors. They don't have our lifestyle and for many of them their faith is the only thing they have. "
Of course they fear conquerors, the Taliban was primarily a foreign invasion inspired and trooped by the students of Western Pakistani madarasses. You don't think they fear the Taliban?
You're just engaged in worthless conjecture that has no grounding in fact.
They don't fear us because we're the weak horse. They're more worried about what the Taliban will do to them.
"We are not paying them tribute. The leadership is trying not to increase the threat to our troops by offending the customs of these people. If we have some of these people as allies, how does burning the Koran help us?"
Suggesting that our own citizens in our own countries "should not offend their customs", is paying the Danegeld. It's tribute. "Give us this, or we attack."
"He’s showboating. He could have dug a pit in his back yard and burn all the Korans he wanted if that’s what gets him off. He’s looking for attention with this trail stunt and the people who will end up paying for it with their blood will be our troops."
You just keep repeating your same arguements no matter how soft they become. I've already told you plenty of times, he may be grandstanding, but he's putting his own neck on the line.
You still haven't commented on the Danish cartoonists. What about Salman Rushdie? Are they all grandstanding assholes? Do they all need to shut up?
Our weakness in imposing our ways on them and not vice versa is the reason the troops are more at risk.
We've done all the correct things; not bombed their mosques, allowed them to build a constitution based on their Muslim horsehockey, etc. We've been so very sensitive over there in between the bombs and bullets. It's failed. Things are deteriorating.
Montana Urban Legend - ". Go on some more about Alinsky and Marx and those other Jewish agitators, why don't you?"
Not directed at me, but lets say the Progressive Jews of the ACLU and various "Muslim Terrorist Rights" legal advocacy fronts are part of the problems, not the solutions.
SPImmoral,
"Of course they fear conquerors, the Taliban was primarily a foreign invasion inspired and trooped by the students of Western Pakistani madarasses. You don't think they fear the Taliban?"
I think they fear the Taliban as religious overloads as opposed to us who they see as infidels invading their lands.
"Suggesting that our own citizens in our own countries "should not offend their customs", is paying the Danegeld. It's tribute. "Give us this, or we attack."
I don't consider not offending their customs as paying tribute. On each of my deployments to the Middle East, we were briefed on restrictions to our actions so as not to offend the local population and compromise our mission. Unfortunately, with the global connectivity we have, this Pastor, by putting a video of his mock trial on his web site, guaranteed it was going to get noticed in Afghanistan and provoke a reaction which is exactly what he desired.
"You just keep repeating your same arguments no matter how soft they become. I've already told you plenty of times, he may be grandstanding, but he's putting his own neck on the line."
Well, unfortunately, he's also putting other people's lives on the line who have not taken any part in his publicity stunt.
"You still haven't commented on the Danish cartoonists. What about Salman Rushdie? Are they all grandstanding assholes? Do they all need to shut up?"
Are they Americans? Pastor Jones represents America in the eyes of the Afghans.
"We've done all the correct things; not bombed their mosques, allowed them to build a constitution based on their Muslim horsehockey, etc. We've been so very sensitive over there in between the bombs and bullets. It's failed. Things are deteriorating."
I think we have had our share of inadvertent civilian killings, such as those 9 or 10 boys looking for firewood who were recently killed. These things will obviously happen. We also had the premeditated killings of the Striker Brigade which will not help our cause.
As far as it failing. I can't definitively say. However, while we have troops over there we should, in my opinion, do all we can to support them until they return.
It's too bad that Socrates ain't here and instead we're stuck with you and your neurotic cultural Marcism and tranny fantasies instead, huh?
It's too bad that someone who purports to speak for Western civilization can't distinguish between two very basic things that even the least of the Greeks, those co-founders of Western civ, knew very much about: rhetoric and logic.
Socrates (via Plato) said, "No one does evil voluntarily."
His meaning was that one would only "choose" evil through ignorance; anyone with true knowledge wound never voluntarily commit an evil act, an example of which might pretty plainly be the beheading of a UN peace-worker.
In short: these Muslim Jihadists are merely ignorant, though a fat lot of good that insight does when their knives are pressed to your throat.
Anyway, the world won't miss them when, sooner or later, they're gone.
You used my quite logical personal opinions as a jumping off point to try and suggest that Western civ is no greater than radical Muslim civ, when the two subjects have nothing to do with each other. Again, you tried to slyly insinuate because you didn't have the balls to outright state, but you wanted to keep the neurotic cultural Marxist part of your brain happy 'cause these topics make it very unhappy.
SPImmoral keeps doing the dishonor of lying and fraudulently misrepresenting me by accusing me of not thinking Western civilization superior to any other civilization.
For the record, I should make it clear, if it isn't painfully obvious, that I find Western civilization to be the pinnacle of civilization - although no thanks to SPImmoral.
Western civilization has survived and incorporated other civilizations into it and I believe it will continue to do so far into the future. It is strong enough to withstand Marx, Alinsky (although who knows how he had anything to do with Western civilization one way or another), Osama, and it will certainly withstand the lies of belligerent frauds like SPImmoral.
Ah -- what would Jesus do if the Torah were burnt?
Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews is instructive:
Book XX
4.... Cureanus ... sent soldiers immediately, and ordered them to plunder the neighboring villages, and to bring the most eminent persons among them in bonds to him. Now as this devastation was making, one of the soldiers seized the laws of Moses that lay in one of those villages, and brought them out before the eyes of all present, and tore them to pieces; and this was done with reproachful language, and much scurrility; which things when the Jews heard of, they ran together, and that in great numbers, and came down to Cesarea, where Cumanus then was, and besought him that he would avenge, not themselves, but God himself, whose laws had been affronted; for that they could not bear to live any longer, if the laws of their forefathers must be affronted after this manner. Accordingly Cumanus, out of fear lest the multitude should go into a sedition, and by the advice of his friends also, took care that the soldier who had offered the affront to the laws should be beheaded, and thereby put a stop to the sedition which was ready to be kindled a second time.
So, to keep the Jews from rioting and killing after a Roman soldier tore a copy of the Torah to pieces, the Roman procurator had the soldier responsible beheaded.
We should try beheading Pastor Jones, and see if that would pacify the Afghanis.
If there was any doubt that "nation building" in Afghanistan was doomed to failure before this, there shouldn't be now.
36fsfiend --
"Are any still in?"
Dude, drop the feigned and pompous superiority complex. It's really not impressive. You and millions of others have served. You're right there equal to them and, by the way, equal to all others who haven't. Don't sprain your shoulder on your patting.
36fsfiend --
"He’s showboating."
As are you. You pompously condemn people (and don't pull that, I didn't really say it wimp out) for either not currently having a relative in AF or not currently being in the military. Dude, you're just a guy. And for all anyone here knows, you could be lying about everything you've said.
former law student --
"We should try beheading Pastor Jones, and see if that would pacify the Afghanis."
And if it doesn't?
36: Yes, but why needlessly expose them to an additional threat by stirring up civilians - are we not also trying to win their hearts and minds so they will not side with the Taliban?
Do we spend a great deal of time trying to appease Klansmen who burn crosses in the yards of black people?
Thanks for the lulz, FLS. ;-)
Oligonicella,
"Dude, drop the feigned and pompous superiority complex. It's really not impressive. You and millions of others have served. You're right there equal to them and, by the way, equal to all others who haven't. Don't sprain your shoulder on your patting."
Not being pompous. Just interested in knowing if they were still in. Maybe we crossed paths.
36: If Pastor Jones really wants to make a statement why doesm't he buy a plane ticket to Afghanistan and he can burn a Koran over there. Let's see if he really believes in his convictions.
...you mean outside of the act being illegal in Afghanistan and quite legal here?
Seems like he's showing WAY more respect to Islam than they show to anybody else.
fls: If we know the consequences of desecrating their holy book I would hope that none of us would desecrate it.
If you wish to sacrifice your rights because it upsets barbarians overseas, feel free. Don't expect others to follow suit.
Hey, our women not acting like property ALSO offends them. We should change that as well, huh?
Oligonicella,
"As are you. You pompously condemn people (and don't pull that, I didn't really say it wimp out) for either not currently having a relative in AF or not currently being in the military. Dude, you're just a guy. And for all anyone here knows, you could be lying about everything you've said."
What do you think about the seven UN workers who were killed who had no part in this Pastor's stunt? Jones knew the risks. He was warned the first time. Hell he receive a personal call from the SecDef about what could happen and now it's happening.
Don't be silly, damikesc. Our women are just as whorish a bunch of sell-outs as our male politicians. Except when they're not trying to keep up with the Kardashians, etc. - which as I understand it is unfortunately not the norm.
We're all owned by the almighty dollar in America.
damikesc,
"Do we spend a great deal of time trying to appease Klansmen who burn crosses in the yards of black people?"
How can you equate our society and rule of law with Afghanistan?
36: Yes, so why do we have people who want to continue to inflame them? I have to wonder if Pastor Jones would be so in favor of publicly burning Korans if he had a son or daughter on the front lines in Afghanistan?
Shall we look at how Arab television and media treat Israel or the West?
Do you REALLY want to play "Who is Ruder to Who?"
36: How can you equate our society and rule of law with Afghanistan?
I'm not the one excusing a human for acting in a sub-human manner.
We should show Islam the same respect Islamic states show the West.
...but I'm not sure we can sink THAT low.
Ritmo: Don't be silly, damikesc. Our women are just as whorish a bunch of sell-outs as our male politicians. Except when they're not trying to keep up with the Kardashians, etc. - which as I understand it is unfortunately not the norm.
So, no problem with the brutal repression of women in Islam, eh?
Quite progressive of you. Hey, at least they don't oppose abortion, right? At least they have the proper views on gay marriage, right?
36: What do you think about the seven UN workers who were killed who had no part in this Pastor's stunt?
...I note that you aren't blaming the people who COMMITTED the crime.
I only say they behave in a subhuman manner.
You seem to actually BELIEVE they are sub-human.
"Yes, there were Afghanis who went nuts, but there were also millions of Aghanis who did not respond at all. Do we give them some credit or just pretend they don't exist?"
Do you often praise the adult who avoids shitting their pants? Or do you just assume that is the whole "being an adult" thing?
Yes, we don't praise people enough for not rising up and slaughtering people en masse. That doesn't seem remotely condescending.
What do you think about the seven UN workers who were killed who had no part in this Pastor's stunt? Jones knew the risks. He was warned the first time. Hell he receive a personal call from the SecDef about what could happen and now it's happening.
Recently a tragedy happened in Northern California: a woman coming off the late shift at a bowling alley was run down and killed while crossing the street by a participant in a street race. Yet both drivers were charged with manslaughter. The only logical reason is that without the other racer the first one would never have run the woman down.
I think Pastor Jones should be charged with manslaughter: he knew that burning a Koran would provoke Muslims to acts of violence -- that was the whole point behind putting the Koran "on trial" -- yet he did it anyways. He set the killing in motion just as the street racer did.
Let the Afghanis, or the Nepalis, charge Jones with manslaughter and let us extradite him for his condign punishment.
"Don't be silly, damikesc. Our women are just as whorish a bunch of sell-outs as our male politicians. Except when they're not trying to keep up with the Kardashians, etc. - which as I understand it is unfortunately not the norm."
So, no problem with the brutal repression of women in Islam, eh?
These two statements have about as much to do with each other as a gnat's fart has to do with nuclear fission. Almost as much, but not quite.
Weird, weird, weird you are.
damikesc,
"Shall we look at how Arab television and media treat Israel or the West?"
"Do you REALLY want to play "Who is Ruder to Who?"
Not interested in playing who's ruder. I just agree with Gen. Petraeus's statements on the issue.
Lara Logan have known that her very presence would provoke Muslims to violence. Charge the bitch with accessory to assault and extradite her ass to Egypt now.
our women not acting like property ALSO offends them.
Muslims hold western women living in the west to western standards. If a French chick goes topless at the beach it's no skin off an Afghani's ass.
36: Not interested in playing who's ruder. I just agree with Gen. Petraeus's statements on the issue.
And I think spending effort to understand what might set off barbarians isn't worth the time or energy.
fls: I think Pastor Jones should be charged with manslaughter: he knew that burning a Koran would provoke Muslims to acts of violence -- that was the whole point behind putting the Koran "on trial" -- yet he did it anyways. He set the killing in motion just as the street racer did.
So, should we charge all abortion doctors with manslaughter in the killing of Dr. Tiller?
fls: Muslims hold western women living in the west to western standards. If a French chick goes topless at the beach it's no skin off an Afghani's ass.
Have you actually studied what Muslims bitch about?
fls: Let the Afghanis, or the Nepalis, charge Jones with manslaughter and let us extradite him for his condign punishment.
So, we should extradite him to face a death sentence for a perfectly legal act?
Nice FIRM attachment to the law ya gots there.
@FLS:
I dunno. Muslims may not even touch the Koran unless they have gone through the purification ritual. Ideally they should dress up as though to visit a King before they read it. I don't see that sort of respect for the Bible.
Imam FLS weighs in on the practices of all Muslims.
Some Muslims may do this, but I know and work with Muslims. Some have Qurans in their offices. I have never seen one do this. Here is a Muslim handing out free Qurans to strangers from a dawah table.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.delawaremuslims.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/photo_dawah_table.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.delawaremuslims.com/dawah-table-set-this-week-again/&usg=__p3zmHbYy6MmoCLGvUAsoOR8XHaA=&h=606&w=523&sz=103&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=Z5Q5tGbDWStgyM:&tbnh=138&tbnw=112&ei=w9OXTYKkLNKbtweD69GNDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddawah%2Btable%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us%26rlz%3D1I7GGLL_en%26biw%3D1420%26bih%3D740%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=93&oei=w9OXTYKkLNKbtweD69GNDA&page=1&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=272&ty=3
(I'd make a proper link if Blogger would let me.) Funny, he's not dressed like a king, and I've never seen a dawah table where you have to do purification before you can take a free Quran.
Jews venerate copies of the Torah and any paper with the Tetragrammaton on it, and when Muslims desecrate it do New York Hasidim go out and kill random strangers? They do not.
Was Scott Roeder a Muslim?
damikesc,
"...I note that you aren't blaming the people who COMMITTED the crime.
I only say they behave in a subhuman manner.
You seem to actually BELIEVE they are sub-human."
We'll, as I posted earlier, if you intentionally stir up the hornets nest and then get stung,do you blame the hornets.
We know the Afghan and Taliban can be brutal. Look what they do to their own people. Why would we want to bring that brutality down on our people by provoking such a response? What are we gaining by this Pastor's actions?
If I yell fire in a crowded theater and someone is injured or killed in the rush, am I responsible?
"Yet both drivers were charged with manslaughter. The only logical reason is that..."street racing is an illegal activity even without contributing to a death. While doing something illegal, someone died.
Pastor Jones was not doing anything illegal.
I also, for the record, find the notion that women are people HERE only because our laws say so to be outright evil. Though I suppose in a world where the notion of "rights" is confused with "what I want" it's not surprising that someone can't tell the difference.
Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without
malice. It is of three kinds:
(a) Voluntary--upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.
(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not
amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and
circumspection.
Killing while performing a lawful act without due caution and circumspection is manslaughter.
We'll, as I posted earlier, if you intentionally stir up the hornets nest and then get stung,do you blame the hornets
I think the question is whether we should hold Muslims to a higher standard.than we do hornets.
@FLS:
Muslims hold western women living in the west to western standards. If a French chick goes topless at the beach it's no skin off an Afghani's ass.
No end to the horseshit today.
Last Thursday, in Sydney, the pack leader of a group of Lebanese Muslim gang- rapists was sentenced to 55 years in jail. I suppose I ought to say "Lebanese-Australian" Muslim gang-rapists, since the accused were Australian citizens. But, identity-wise, the rambunctious young lads considered themselves heavy on the Lebanese, light on the Australian. During their gang rapes, the lucky lady would be told she was about to be "f- --ed Leb style" and that she deserved it because she was an "Australian pig."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412697/Outrage-Muslim-cleric-likens-women-uncovered-meat.html
In a Ramadam sermon in a Sydney mosque, Sheik al-Hilali suggested that a group of Muslim men recently jailed for many years for gang rapes were not entirely to blame.
There were women, he said, who 'sway suggestively' and wore make-up and immodest dress "and then you get a judge without mercy and gives you 65 years. But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he said, referring to the women victims.
Addressing 500 worshippers on the topic of adultery, Sheik al-Hilali added: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it..whose fault is it - the cats or the uncovered meat?
"The uncovered meat is the problem."
He went on: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab (veil), no problem would have occurred."
Women, he said, were 'weapons' used by Satan to control men.
Maguro,
"I think the question is whether we should hold Muslims to a higher standard.than we do hornets."
So how do we impose or convince these people who have been living their way of life for hundreds of years to embrace are values and ideals?
Hornets behave according to their nature. If you lay out in the sun, do you blame the sun that you're burned?
It really is beyond insulting to so much as say that "those people" are not functional moral actors but only acting according to their natures, like a hornet or the sun.
The only humans we do not hold accountable and responsible for refusing to subsume their "natures" are small children and the mentally incompetent.
Jones is rude so people kill other people who didn't even do it? At what point is that like a hornet doing what god made a hornet to do?
And, again, could I ask at what point we have a right to expect locals to stand up to these criminals when their actions send us into whimpering apologies when we aren't even there?
Sure, yeah, whatever. Jones shouldn't have done it, no matter how legal and no matter that he has a Right to free-speech, conscience and opinion... the real "Right" that doesn't take a Constitution to grant him, a Right that exists no matter the time in History or the oppressive tyranny of government.
Synova,
"Hornets behave according to their nature. If you lay out in the sun, do you blame the sun that you're burned?
"It really is beyond insulting to so much as say that "those people" are not functional moral actors but only acting according to their natures, like a hornet or the sun."
My point is that the Afghans are acting according to their beliefs and culture. How do we change that? If we can't, then if we that an action, such as burning a Koran, that we know will provoke given response, who is to blame?
topless at the beach it's no skin off an Afghani's ass.
Point me to the nearest beach in Afghanistan.
seamz simple yar air lift old terry jones to afganistan an let im debate thar issues of koran burnin in person and the problem will be solved
old terry jones aint worth the life of even one gurka
"Killing while performing a lawful act without due caution and circumspection is manslaughter."
But Jones didn't kill anyone while he was burning the Koran.
Getting convicted of making someone *else* kill someone takes more than that.
You know it was an excuse, fls. Just like the Danish cartoons were an excuse, just like the deaths in response to Newsweek making up a bogus story about a toilet was an excuse. Are you really suggesting that the cartoonists in Denmark be arrested for manslaughter? They were trying to prove a point every bit as much as Jones. Or how about Newsweek. At least Newsweek has the added virtue of negligence to go with the deaths involved. Death through carelessness and a desire to embarrass George Bush.
I won't ever say that the Danish guys shouldn't have done it. Free speech is important. Far far more important than trying to embarrass George Bush and printing lies.
I think the question is whether we should hold Muslims to a higher standard.than we do hornets.
BANG.
Killing while performing a lawful act without due caution and circumspection is manslaughter.
He didn't kill anyone.
The very least he could be charged with is inciting violence. In another country?
Our women are just as whorish a bunch of sell-outs as our male politicians. Except when they're not trying to keep up with the Kardashians, etc. - which as I understand it is unfortunately not the norm.
Get laid much?
"My point is that the Afghans are acting according to their beliefs and culture. How do we change that? If we can't,.."
I thought this was only a few fringe thugs and not all the Afghans. Have to make up our minds here, don't we?
How do we *change* that is by stopping being moral pussies in the face of a threat. By cowering because some fellow did what we would never do we do actually lend those thugs strength and take it from the shop keeper on the street who doesn't want his name known because he can't afford the risk to his livelihood.
Because in the end that person faces the threat and we don't. Why do you think that the thugs kill so many of their own while they use us as an excuse? In Iraq the "freedom fighters" waited until American soldiers were surrounded by Iraqi children to set off their bombs. "OMG American soldiers being there killed those children" only works with the multiplication of the voices saying so, confirming it, and strengthening that message. Force multiplication is what terrorism is all about. And it only works with the willing cooperation of others.
If Jones is responsible for anything, think of what responsibility those people hold who have been re-enforcing the message that the upset is a reasonable consequence? How much of the blood from NEXT time will be on the hands of those condemning Jones and excusing the Hornets?
Did any of the usual Islam apologists happen to explain how literally thousands upon thousands of militant Islamists actively engaging in violence and destruction in the Phillipines, Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, the Balkans, Eqypt, Syria, Western Europe and East Africa make up a fringe minority of the Religion of peace?
I had to stop reading right around FLS's daily showing-his-ass commentary so I'm hoping I didn't miss the big explanation.
So how do we impose or convince these people who have been living their way of life for hundreds of years to embrace are values and ideals?
I don't think we can. As I mentioned above, I think our nation building efforts in A'stan are doomed to failure.
And I don't necessarily disagree that Jones was irresponsible at best in burning the book. Something like this was prety much inevitable once he did. If he'd asked me, I'd certainly have told him not to do it.
So I don't think your hornet analogy is completely inapt. The problem is, accepting that Muslims simply can't control their violent outbursts has implications far beyond this particular issue.
For instance, should we issue any more immigrant visas to these hornets?
@Ritmo:
It's called "Uganda", you geopolitical illiterate, and the policy was encouraged by that moderate James Dobson and his Focus on the Family group.
Violent repression of homosexuals is endemic in Africa and long predates Focus on the Families' existence. It's in Zimbabwe and Kenya and Nigeria, in Christian nations and in Muslim nations.
Robert Mugabe has said that homosexuality is an unAfrican colonial impostion, and that gays are worse than pigs and dogs. He didn't learn that from James Dobson.
Zimbabwe's Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai has joined President Robert Mugabe in dismissing calls to enshrine gay rights in the new constitution.
"I totally agree with the president," he said, state media report.
Homosexual acts are currently illegal in Zimbabwe. Mr Mugabe once said gays were "worse than pigs and dogs", sparking international condemnation.
Zimbabwe's President Robert Mugabe has accused the British Government of setting "gay gangsters" on him over his controversial land reforms.
In an interview with Zimbabwe's official newspaper, the Sunday Mail, Mr Mugabe said the Labour government was behind gay activists who ambushed his car outside a London hotel on 30 October.
So, to keep the Jews from rioting and killing after a Roman soldier tore a copy of the Torah to pieces, the Roman procurator had the soldier responsible beheaded
So, you're taking your legal cues from Imperial Rome?
Synova,
"I thought this was only a few fringe thugs and not all the Afghans. Have to make up our minds here, don't we?"
The reports I've read stated 20,000 have been in these protests. And we are now on day two.
"How do we *change* that is by stopping being moral pussies in the face of a threat. By cowering because some fellow did what we would never do we do actually lend those thugs strength and take it from the shop keeper on the street who doesn't want his name known because he can't afford the risk to his livelihood."
From our military leadership:
Gen. Jack Keane - "...the burning was not just insulting to Muslims. It's also insulting to our soldiers in terms of what they stand for and what their commitment is to this country and to the Muslims in this country,"
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/07/petraeus-burn-a-koran-day-could-endanger-us-troops.html
Maguro,
"I don't think we can. As I mentioned above, I think our nation building efforts in A'stan are doomed to failure."
I think you are probably right.
"And I don't necessarily disagree that Jones was irresponsible at best in burning the book. Something like this was pretty much inevitable once he did. If he'd asked me, I'd certainly have told him not to do it."
I agree.
"So I don't think your hornet analogy is completely inapt. The problem is, accepting that Muslims simply can't control their violent outbursts has implications far beyond this particular issue.
"For instance, should we issue any more immigrant visas to these hornets?"
As I responded to Synova:
My point is that the Afghans are acting according to their beliefs and culture. How do we change that? If we can't, then if we that an action, such as burning a Koran, that we know will provoke a given response, who is to blame?
It was *insulting*. It was meant to be insulting by the guy who did it. Our state department and our military would rather people refrain from being insulting.
It complicates their lives.
So does the right to remain silent, innocent until proven guilty, and the right to freedom of speech and religion, due process and everything else complicate the lives of those representing the state.
But I'll ask again. Who's hands will the blood be on next time if we allow this blackmail by proxy to work?
Or do we just submit? Do we silence our cartoonists and jail our unruly clerics? Perhaps we should cover our hair? And if we cover our hair because a scarf is such a small thing, where does that leave that Pakistani actress?
"If we can't, then if we that an action, such as burning a Koran, that we know will provoke a given response, who is to blame?"
This is childish at best. Unless you consider Afghans to be sub-human, then these people are responsible for their own murderous actions.
GMay said...
"This is childish at best. Unless you consider Afghans to be sub-human, then these people are responsible for their own murderous actions."
Again, Gen. Petraeus' thoughts on the matter:
"Images of the burning of a Quran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan—and around the world—to inflame public opinion and incite violence,"..."Such images could, in fact, be used as were the photos from [Abu Ghraib]. And this would, again, put our troopers and civilians in jeopardy and undermine our efforts to accomplish the critical mission here in Afghanistan."
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/07/petraeus-burn-a-koran-day-could-endanger-us-troops.html
I wonder if those seven dead UN workers think the concept is childish.
36fsfiend --
"My point is that the Afghans are acting according to their beliefs and culture. How do we change that? If we can't, then if we that an action, such as burning a Koran, that we know will provoke given response, who is to blame?"
They are. You've been told that repeatedly. He who murders is the perp. This is especially true when he murders someone absolutely not connected to his 'ire'.
You're sure a fan of cut and paste, aren't you?
It's utterly mystifying (or quite possibly sinister) to see some suggest that a guy on one side of the world behaving in poor taste is in any way, shape, or form responsible for murders committed on the other side of the world by a mob of life forms supposedly capable of higher brain function.
Oligonicella, GMay,
"It's utterly mystifying (or quite possibly sinister) to see some suggest that a guy on one side of the world behaving in poor taste is in any way, shape, or form responsible for murders committed on the other side of the world by a mob of life forms supposedly capable of higher brain function."
The events of the past two days speak for themselves.
I'm out. Cheers.
36fsfiend --
"Not being pompous. Just interested in knowing if they were still in. Maybe we crossed paths."
Bullshit. Neither of you know the name, rank or serial number of the other. You would never know if you crossed paths. It's a pompous appeal to assumed authority.
You're just somebody who got a Blogge moniker last month to go turfing for support, nothing more.
Prove it: give your NRSN.
GMay --
"It's utterly mystifying (or quite possibly sinister) to see some suggest that a guy on one side of the world behaving in poor taste is in any way, shape, or form responsible for murders committed on the other side of the world by a mob of life forms supposedly capable of higher brain function."
36fsfiend --
"The events of the past two days speak for themselves."
And once again you subvert your own arguments. Events of the past two days (not a couple of weeks ago) speak to the character of the sinister killers and their apologists.
"Again, Gen. Petraeus' thoughts on the matter:"
I suppose you're laboring under the strange idea that Gen. Petraeus' opinion on this should snap me back into line eh?
Sorry.
Petraeus is a man with an opinion, just like you and me. I disagree with his take, just like I disagreed with other Generals' opnions when I was on active duty myself.
So unless you'd like to make an argument yourself, instead of spouting off the politically correct pablum of someone else, feel free. Otherwise, The General's opinion on the matter is no more convincing coming from you than when I disagreed with it the first time I read it months ago.
"I wonder if those seven dead UN workers think the concept is childish."
I don't. But then again, I don't really use the dead as a prop in my arguments. YMMV
"Our women are just as whorish a bunch of sell-outs as our male politicians. Except when they're not trying to keep up with the Kardashians, etc. - which as I understand it is unfortunately not the norm."
Get laid much?
Not in the flyover, or whichever conservative stronghold you're posting from. When I was there, however, things were much easier... pretentious efforts at keeping up with the more glamorous of the Joneses wasn't as much of an issue. With the elites, however, it's different.
I still get laid, and just as laid (and actually have relationships and other experiences that must be hard for your caveman brain to fathom), as I did before. I just have to make a much more conscious effort than I did before to avoid the shallow and the insecure. Not hard, 'cause I don't like 'em. But they're as plentiful on the coast as they are in the flyover... just in a more celebutard-driven and fashionista way.
Your sows in the flyover, OTOH, have to bask in their admiration for celebutardation from afar, and make forced efforts to giggle in mock ridicule at what they really want.
Not in the flyover, or whichever conservative stronghold you're posting from. When I was there, however, things were much easier... blah blah blah
I guess that's a "no"' then.
Last Thursday, in Sydney,
So Lebanese Muslim Australians are no better than American military contractors:
A Houston, Texas woman says she was gang-raped by Halliburton/KBR coworkers in Baghdad, and the company and the U.S. government are covering up the incident.
ABC News, "20/20"
Jamie Leigh Jones, now 22, says that after she was raped by multiple men at a KBR camp in the Green Zone, the company put her under guard in a shipping container with a bed and warned her that if she left Iraq for medical treatment, she'd be out of a job.
"Don't plan on working back in Iraq. There won't be a position here, and there won't be a position in Houston," Jones says she was told.
Unless you consider Afghans to be sub-human, then these people are responsible for their own murderous actions.
Everyone in the entire world should possess the same values as GMay. Anyone who doesn't is subhuman.
I guess that's a "no"' then.
It's a "no" that I don't live there, you silly, dimwitted Marvin the Martian wanna-be. It's not a "no" as to what I've done there.
What the fuck would an "information technology" dork know about sex, anyway? I mean, I'm sure you can tell me all about the greatest cybersex-enhancing technologies and the same internet porn that any other guy knows about. But seriously, do you go on Red Light Center for your cybersex or are you hip with the latest teledildonics?
An "information technology" guy lecturing me about getting laid. That's funny. You guys are the biggest dorks on the planet. Seriously, how many of Mystery's podcasts have you downloaded and how many pick-up artist sites do you subscribe to? Did you just try to "neg" me?
What a joke.
FLS - "I think Pastor Jones should be charged with manslaughter: he knew that burning a Koran would provoke Muslims to acts of violence -- that was the whole point behind putting the Koran "on trial" -- yet he did it anyways. He set the killing in motion just as the street racer did.
Let the Afghanis, or the Nepalis, charge Jones with manslaughter and let us extradite him for his condign punishment.
============
Real Brainiac that FLS is! So if Islamoids burn and desecrate a Church in Egypt, then Americans lynch some Hajis from Morocco in Kansas, FLS's solution is to request the Egyptian Islamoids be extradited and tried for murder in America for what the Americans did.
You might wish to breath a sigh of relief that FLS stands for Former Law Student..no great loss to the legal profession with his absence of critical reasoning skills.
LOL, Ritmo. I'm sure you'll get lucky some day.
FLS, do you know if the contractors who committed the rape were even American? The company was. Do you know the citizenship of the guilty parties?
My take on that whole thing was that it was a jurisdictional nightmare. Hopefully it was worked out, finally, but who was supposed to arrest whom? The military CAN'T arrest civilians and the US government didn't have jurisdiction for local courts and who, exactly, was going to call in the locals? I hope you're not suggesting the military, who undoubtedly intended their actions to be protecting her, were supposed to march her into an Iraqi police station to make her complaint.
The military carries its own judicial system with it wherever it goes. It will take care of crimes between military members or committed by military members. Crimes committed against military members, such as rape, go to the local judiciary, unless it's a Muslim country in which case the victim is probably evacuated secretly out of the country in the middle of the night and all US officials get amnesia she ever even existed... particularly if she or anyone else hurt someone in her defense.
So please... what court was this woman supposed to find refuge in?
There *should* be a criminal jurisdiction that applies, but as far as I know there is not. I expect that she sued her employer in civil court. Do you know the outcome of that? Do you care?
C4: No American cares about burned churches -- There are 15-20 church arson fires every month in America; 1000 in a five-year period from 1996 to 2000 according to (at that time) ATF.
synova -- one series of tragic gang rapes in 2000 is not enough to condemn a whole religion.
There *should* be a criminal jurisdiction that applies, but as far as I know there is not. I expect that she sued her employer in civil court. Do you know the outcome of that? Do you care?
If this is the case I'm thinking of, she couldn't sue because she signed one of those contracts where you give up your right to sue the company and agree to binding arbitration with capped damages in the case of a dispute. One of the idiot liberal Senators then wrote a bill to ban binding arb contracts from government contracts, but I don't know if it ever got passed.
I appreciate your concern, Maggutro. I'm sure that if I were living life as "on-line" as you do, I'd get luckier much more often than the multiple times a day that I do already.
How kinky are your own concubines, Marvin? You are obviously too much of "playa" to have a wife or girlfriend.
I assume that if anything, Maguro's sexual habits are reminiscent of Charlie Sheen's.
Banning binding arbitration does nothing at all to create a criminal jurisdiction that applies to civilian employees of our government while not on US soil.
What does the State Department do with their employees?
Ritmo, here is what I would recommend: Be confident and don't be afraid to make eye contact. Try to improve your posture and clip those ultralong fingernails.
Above all, don't mention that you're a puppeteer.
Follow those simple rules and you should have better success than in the past.
"Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of offending culture, religion or traditions," de Mistura said.
Says it all.
There is no freedom of speech.
@FLS:
So Lebanese Muslim Australians are no better than American military contractors:
Nice try changing the subject, jacakss. You said, Muslims don't care if non-Muslim women confomr to Muslim mores. I quoted, in response, an actual imam who said that Muslims who rape Australian women are not at fault, because Australian women do not conform to Muslim mores.
You decided then to change the subject and point out that Americans have committed rapes.
He's merely making the same argument you are: Muslims can't be held repsonsible for their violence against Muslims. If Australian women don't want to be raped by Muslims, they shouldn't go around uncovered around Muslims, and if UN people don't want to be murdered by Muslims, then no one anywhere in the entire world should ever burn a Quran.
@Synova - Yeah, I am not sure how jurisdiction for serious criminal offenses committed by civilians on base is handled in the AOR. I just remembred the part about the no sue contracts because it inspired that legislation.
Thanks Mag. I'm always up for secks tips from teh tech support guy!
What are you? The new proverbial pizza delivery boy? Do you clean pools, too?
I was going to clip my nails, but heard that their good for snorting those little powdery bits of the 7 gram rocks that you and Charlie Sheen were doing while banging goddesses.
A whole lot of fail going on in here tonight.
I read this thread earlier and ran down to the local big box book store and picked up a copy of Daddy, papa, and me, as well as a copy of the Koran (Quran, Qoran, whatever). At checkout, the salesperson (definitely neutral in the sexual spectrum) looked at the books, then at me, and said, "You're going to burn these books, aren't you?"
I let her know that I was entering a state of enlightenment, was going to read them first, then piss on them, let them dry in the sun, then burn them, with an intermingling of hog guts and dog shit (Fecal matter and gay books just seems so proper).
I ran next door to the save rite and picked up a couple of 1.5 litre bottles of Merlot, went home and got to work. About 50 pages through the Koran (kuran, quran, whatever), I had to take a massive duetch, so I ran into the bathroom, continued reading, then pulled one of the softest, most holy pages, out of the eternal toilet paper binder and wiped my FLS with it. Running out of patience, I slammed the rest of the 1st bottle of Merlot, tapped the second, took the two books outside and urinated all over them.
Tomorrow will be a bright and sunny day. I'll let Mr. Sunshine do his work drying them out, and when I get back from the hunt club, where I plan to kill numerous mammels, I'm going to burn the shit out of that shit.
Burn, baby, burn. Used to be a cool saying. I think that it's lost the luster from the old days.
WV: arack:
That sales clerk had arack on 'er that wouldn't quit.
"I dunno. Muslims may not even touch the Koran unless they have gone through the purification ritual. Ideally they should dress up as though to visit a King before they read it."
You're correct: you "dunno". That's a load of extremist culture-not-religion bullshit that the Ayatollah class has foisted upon the west as a way of further separating anyone from knowing the true depth and viscosity of the shit that they're full of.
Any Muslim or anyone else can grab a copy of the Qur'an and read the thing however and whenever they wish to. I recommend the Yusef Ali translation, personally. Muslims who tell you there need to be white gloves worn etc. are either full of shit or may be referring to some exceptionally rare/unique copies somewhere (in the manner of the hand-scribed Torahs in the arks of synagogues around the world). Just as I can reach over to my bookshelf and grab my Torah, flip it open and read at will -- even if I just ate cheetos and my fingers are all orange and greasy -- I am at liberty to do the same thing with my Qur'an and no where -- NO WHERE! -- in any religious doctrine does it say that to do so is somehow sinful or otherwise "haram".
FLS is a useful idiot to the same buffoons that sell the west the idea that female genital mutilation is a religious obligation, rather than the barbaric tribal/cultural custom that it is in some parts of the world - not all of them Muslim, nor in all Muslim parts of the world.
Dude, if you're going to be an insufferably condescending cockswain with your purported erudition and well-traveled assholery, you might first want to check your facts.
Until you do, kindly fuck off.
Sincerely, from a child of a Muslim dad and Catholic mum who himself converted to Judaism as an adult.
So blow me, you ignorant asshole.
VanderDouchen, that was hilarious!
C4BDH, the only antisemites here are you, C-fudd and fls. It is a proven fact that Democrats are *more* antisemitic than Republicans:
Dems more antisemitic than Repubs
C-fudd, in case you were too fucking stupid to notice (obviously rhetorical question), fls is your diehard butt buddy when it comes to Israel and da Joooooos.
Nothing against religious Muslims per se, but we should probably let them stay on their side of the planet, rather than letting them come to ours, until they join the 21st Century. Of course, by the time that happens, the West will likely be in the 34th Century...
Let's see ... a whackjob representing the tiniest extreme fringe of Christianity does something stupid, a few Muslims do something savage, and to C-fudd it's all about da Joooos. What does that tell you?
VanderDouchen, thread winner!!!
Accept Islam as a religion of peace at your own peril.
Its like saying a cute, cuddly polar bear won't rip your head off and use your brains as dental floss given the opportunity.
There are muslim moderates; they are silent because they KNOW the radicals will kill them, too, if they speak out. That's no bullshit.
http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/uk-muslim-mother-of-the-year-considered-turning-her-6-children-into-human-bombs/
Drawing Mohammad cartoons, and now Koran burning, seem to be effective ways to separate so-called Muslim extremists from so-called Muslim moderates.
Therefore, we should develop a strategy to deal with their Pavlovian reaction to our transgressions, rather than sitting by as if we were watching an old movie with a tired plot.
In other words, these Koran burning activities should be coordinated so as to efficiently target the so-called Muslim extremists for immediate elimination.
In addition, I suggest making Koran burning a monthly event in every city, town, and hamlet with a Muslim population exceeding 5 moderates.
FLS said: "Everyone in the entire world should possess the same values as GMay. Anyone who doesn't is subhuman."
Oh FLS, let's not pretend that I came up with the concept that a human being is responsible for his own actions. This concept has been around for millenia and even my 11 year old has grasped it.
It's unfortunate for us all that neither they nor you have found this level of enlightenment.
I was being sarcastic, Gary, and making fun of such incorrigibly stupid, chest-thumping "true Americans" as SPImmoral, who thinks that he and violent crazies in other cultures are as different as matter and anti-matter. At some point, I think it actually got to him.
The fact that C-Fud was stupid enough to actually take the bait, well, let's just say that I took that as a sign of how successfully I deployed the irony, and decided to shut up just to see how far SPImmoral's openly anti-Semitic wingers would take, or even run with, the analogy.
But you should know me better than that by now to believe that that's what I actually think.
You've got to use a lot of reverse psychology with these dildos. They are simply not rational.
Gary Rosen: come up with one single anti-Semitic thing I have ever typed, or shut up.
I suggest that everyone who wants to trash the Muslims' God first go to Thailand and talk smack about their king and queen.
"I suggest that everyone who wants to trash the Muslims' God first go to Thailand and talk smack about their king and queen."
Go there?
Why not just "talk smack" in your back yard in Florida and then post a press release or You-tube video?
No doubt it will be enough to send the people in Thailand into a frenzy of violence and murder. (They are, after all, known for violence and everyone has heard of Thai-Rage-Boy.)
Face it, fls. You can't find an equivalent that even begins to make sense. Christians are profoundly offended by various things but they don't kill anyone or burn buildings over it because their religion doesn't support that. Talking "smack" in Thailand might get you beat up, but only if you're standing there on the street. You can get the same result from walking into the wrong bar wearing the wrong clothes.
There are two possible conclusions, and only two. First, it's an excuse for political violence. Second, Islam itself is the enemy.
Personally I go with option number one. Hurt feelings are real, but it is all essentially an excuse for political violence. Thus, if this excuse is taken away, another excuse will be found. Maybe a pirated de Palma movie or something.
I can see the reasons for people believing it is option two, primarily that the people committing the violence insist that it's option two.
I suggest that everyone who wants to trash the Muslims' God first go to Thailand and talk smack about their king and queen.
But you know what you can do? You can go to Thailand and talk smack about the President of the United States. That especially amused me when Bush was President. I'd see all these Westerners (Australians, etc) walking around Thailand with anti-Bush t-shirts.
I didn't behead any of them.
It's almost as if not being offended to the point of murdering someone now means Christians are just not really all that serious.
How important can it be if you won't kill someone for offending your faith?
"I'm still waiting for the Pope to call for a new Crusade. Let's throw a little medieval insanity against medieval insanity."
Then you are waiting for the wrong thing. Urban II was right in calling the Crusade, and, if anything, it was a little late coming.
You said, Muslims don't care if non-Muslim women confomr to Muslim mores. I quoted, in response, an actual imam who said that Muslims who rape Australian women are not at fault, because Australian women do not conform to Muslim mores.
Ah, I said "Muslims hold western women living in the west to western standards. If a French chick goes topless at the beach it's no skin off an Afghani's ass."
and then you told me the story of gang rapes. I could not see that as a response to my assertion.
But now I see that you meant that the Koran commands Muslims to rape women -- as the story put it -- dressed for a job interview.
Sorry to misunderstand.
Post a Comment