Here's what I expect: With Prosser in the lead, the claims of fraud on the Republican side will stop. The Democrats will not raise claims of fraud even if they contest the election.How simple life would be if your side stuck to neutral principles and the other side kept cranking out evidence of hypocrisy.
UPDATE: I already may need to take back the last part of this post: looks like Dems may soon start playing fraud card in WI Sup Ct race, focusing on the clerk who found the lost votes.
But let's be honest. This isn't really about hypocrisy and neutrality. It's about short-term and long-term interests. In any given race, the loser is hoping to change the outcome. So short term, whoever is down might want to go looking for fraud. Whoever is up is going to want to freeze the outcome right there. Long term, it's a different matter. We can see that the 2 parties have assessed their interests and the Republicans, for whatever reason, think the fraud issue works for them. Democrats want to say what Hasen said in that Politco column of his: that fraud is a bogus issue.
You can try to puzzle out why the 2 parties have assessed their long-term interests that way. It might be that there really is fraud, and it's predominantly on the Democrat side, and that's why Republicans want to expose it, and Democrats want to keep it covered up. It could be something else. Maybe Republicans think that it stirs up their people to get them fretting about how corrupt Democrats are, or they think that vigilance about fraud will deter some Democratic voters from trying to vote. Republicans might want to win support for photo ID requirements, with the ulterior motive that people with problems getting IDs tend to vote for Democrats. You can extrapolate the corresponding long-term-interest analysis on the Democratic side.
If the Democrats cry fraud in the Kloppenburg race, it simply means that the short-term interests are strong enough to overcome the usual long-term interests.
Posts
143 comments:
Votes COUNT!
And, this "separate computer gimmick" not withstanding ... you can't take a county and report ZERO voters showed up to the polls. When, in fact, 14,000+ voters DID show up! And, on the correct date.
"Ownership of votes" doesn't go to a stupid clerk who "forgot" to include these totals.
SHAME ON THE AP! You mean they didn't notice a whole county was "sent to Canada?" And, votes destroyed? And, nobody goes to jail?
Could'a fooled me.
Meanwhile, I'm hoping this comes home to roost on Shirley Abrahamson's back. She picked Kloppenberg ... to destroy Prosser ... and that's what the unions bought.
Why not toss judges out when they turn 70? It's not as if it takes brains to do this job.
But let's be honest. This isn't really about hypocrisy and neutrality.
Maybe not, but catching them being hypocrites sure adds to the schadenfreude.
It is not like any democrats have been convicted of election fraud in WI, is it?
The the best “Hot Air” style: Unexpectedly the opinion changed from yesterday
At least he retracted. I guess that counts for something.
Of course, it makes his original point look even sillier when he had to retract so soon.
WV: Sheent. Unfortuantely, I can't think of anything witty or timely to use this.
"...people with problems getting IDs..."
Like who, exactly?
The dead? Mickey Mouse and Jack Meoff? Those are some Democrat voters who helped put Ohio in BHO's column in 2008, and I'm pretty sure they didn't have a valid driver's license.
Is there anyone else for whom a valid ID is unobtainable, and yet they're able to find their way to the voting booth? I really don't understand this argument.
Among Democrats I know -- many of them educated, intelligent people -- the Bush/Gore "fraud" narrative is an article of faith. It's one of the limited set of noises their mechanism emits when you pull their string:
"Math is hard!" "Bush stole the election!" "Math is hard!"
He was half right.
Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore.
It's a strategic and historical thingy really. Dems and their allies have been convicted so many times of voter fraud related offenses and have "won" so many close ones, it is not in their interest to give up the "there is no fraud" meme.
Moreover, this isn't quite the same as the "ballots found in the trunk of a car" scam, is it?
"with the ulterior motive that people with problems getting IDs tend to vote for Democrats"
Maybe. But seriously, I've never gotten the argument that getting an ID was problematic. Going through the process to be registered to vote seems no more onerous than obtaining legal ID.
since voting can result in laws that require men with guns to enforce them, the minimum ID requirement should be the same required to buy a gun.
"But let's be honest. This isn't really about hypocrisy and neutrality... it simply means that the short-term interests are strong enough to overcome the usual long-term interests."
In other words, it is all about hypocrisy and a lack of 'neutrality' (although I would have phrased it as 'objectivity' or 'impartiality').
Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore.
This isn't up to your standard MM. What do you suppose the ratio of Repubs to Dems convicted of voter fraud-related offenses would be?
In all the cases you posit, Althouse, interests overcome principles. We are sinners, and I doubt there is one of us for whom an interest has not overcome a principle at one time or another.
But the large preponderance of of governing class seems to have no principles. Since they lack principles, or their principles are frail and shallow rooted, it's easy for interests to triumph.
On the large stage this is what has put our country on a clear path to financial disaster. Financial disaster begets social disaster.
All for lack of principles.
The backlash against the Waukesha vote-finder ignores the fact that Prosser was already up (by 40 votes, but still up) before the Waukesha votes were found. The Dems should direct their ire toward the AP for misreporting the figures from Winnebago County...damn AP, always in the Republican's pocket.
Oh hell no. In fact, we want to continue to raise hell about voter fraud. Which is why passing Voter ID is even more important now in WI.
SB6 is on the Senate calendar. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/session.htm
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/sb_list.html
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/2011/data/SB-6.pdf
Non-budget bill will be sent to Gov Walker by August 4th 2011.
Go Voter ID go!
Certainly the idea is that when Republicans fuss about voter fraud it's Code for not wanting minorities to vote. Wanting felons (in places where felons lose the right to vote) to be struck from the roles is Code for wanting similarly named minority voters "accidentally" struck from the roles. Etc. Etc.
I'm not sure what it's Code for when Democrats suddenly care very much about the rules when it comes to military absentee ballots, but there you go.
I mean... some fellow can't be bothered to so much as get a picture ID or he's disenfranchised, but a military person who must register, have an absentee ballot sent to him, fill it out and sign it and mail it in by the deadline when the postal service to a war zone is unreliable is *not* disenfranchised when the ballot is disqualified through no fault of his own.
Logic.
Gotta love it.
@MadisonMan
I have no doubt out-of-state students registered elsewhere voted in this election. Apparently, not enough of them!
You'll have to forgive me, having lived through the 2004 Gregoire-Rossi debacle in Washington. My guy won 2 recounts, until enough votes were found behind filing cabinets and in the trunks of cars, and he lost the 3rd.
Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore.
Not true at all. I would welcome a full-scale investigation of the behavior of both sides in this election. We need to know what happened because if elections lack integrity, it erodes the ability of governments to perform the limited duties they ought to perform. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as Brandeis said.
Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore.
I never did. Althouse didn't. Meade didn't. Name me the ones. Put up or shut up.
"It might be that there really is fraud, and it's predominantly on the Democrat side, and that's why Republicans want to expose it, and Democrats want to keep it covered up. It could be something else."
Let's ask Occam.
I'm not sure I understand what happened in Waukesha county. Is this a fair description:
As the numbers came in from the various precincts in the county to the county office, they were entered in a spreadsheet so that they wouldn't have to be added by hand. As a courtesy to the AP, the county official intended to email the results to the AP's office when they were complete. However, she forgot to do a final save, so the results she sent to the AP included a number of zeros that hadn't been overwritten with the actual results that had been reported to her. The AP didn't notice this, so they reported the incomplete results as complete. When the county official or one of her colleagues noticed the discrepancy, they made the correction.
This is what is being characterized as fraud?
Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore.
Hey, not so fast! I absolutely still believe there was fraud. And I still believe it was perpetuated by the Dems.
I just think the Dems sprung their tricks too early. How could they have known that there would be an honest mistake that brought to light an additional 7000+ votes for Prosser? If only they'd waited, they would have known how much they'd need to scale up their fraud machine.
Pastafarian said...
"...people with problems getting IDs..."
Like who, exactly?
The dead? Mickey Mouse and Jack Meoff? Those are some Democrat voters who helped put Ohio in BHO's column in 2008, and I'm pretty sure they didn't have a valid driver's license.
Is there anyone else for whom a valid ID is unobtainable, and yet they're able to find their way to the voting booth? I really don't understand this argument.
I esplain.
For those unfortunate minorities who have suffered systemic discrimination and oppression by slavery, white men, men, Jews, society, men, white men, rich people, pilgrims, settlors, farmers, men, etc, forcing them to obtain a valid picture ID is a further and deliberate oppression sure to hurt women, children, and minorities the most.
"Maybe Republicans think that ... vigilance about fraud will deter some Democratic voters from trying to vote."
Deter LEGAL Democratic voters? How would that work?
Hey, not so fast! I absolutely still believe there was fraud. And I still believe it was perpetuated by the Dems.
No evidence, just faith in the nefariousness of the Democrats. People like you give all conservatives a bad name.
I don't know nothing about Wisconsin, except that the EAA Airventure, held in Oshkosh in late July, is a great place to escape the heat down here in central Texas.
I'm sure Wisconsin Democrats are squeaky clean, but here in Texas it is amazing how many Democrats live on vacant lots.
"Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore."
I'm not sure anyone was *claiming* fraud as if it were a fact.
And there were opinions on both sides as to the plausibility of people going to the polls and voting for the judge and no one else.
"It might be that there really is fraud, and it's predominantly on the Democrat side..."
It MIGHT be? You're not that naive. One side opposes any sort of fraud prevention at every turn, and the other side favors it. This has nothing to do with "disenfranchising" legitimate voters.
They have actual video of people from Cleveland boasting about how they were paid $10 by ACORN for every vote they cast for Obama, and they admitted to voting a dozen times. There were 200,000 questionable votes in Ohio in 2008, and the Democrat SoS, Brunner, refused to even look into it.
If Prosser wins the final tally by 7,000 votes, it means he actually won by 20,000 before the Democrat fraud. And the only reason -- the only reason -- that the Democrats didn't manufacture just enough votes to win is the fact that they didn't know they needed another 7,000 votes.
No evidence, just faith in the nefariousness of the Democrats. People like you give all conservatives a bad name.
Alex? Hello? Alex? Anybody home? Anybody that recognizes sarcasm, I mean?
people with problems getting IDs tend to vote for Democrats.
Who are these people who have problems getting IDs?
Althouse, Let me suggest another reason for the conservatives' position: Fraud is wrong. It couldn't be that simple?
I think there was fraud, it was overwhelmingly on the Dem side, but was insufficient...this time.
Investigate, no matter what the outcome.
Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore.
Voter ID is a critical issue. I started college in Milwaukee in 1992 and vividly recall activists rounding up out of state students and shepherding them into the polling place. They all managed to "register" and vote.
"For those unfortunate minorities who have suffered systemic discrimination and oppression by slavery, white men, men, Jews, society, men, white men, rich people, pilgrims, settlors, farmers, men, etc, forcing them to obtain a valid picture ID is a further and deliberate oppression sure to hurt women, children, and minorities the most."
There's a certain logic to it but followed to its conclusion it becomes a farce where some fellow in a suit at a polling place is intimidating voters while the fellow in paramilitary uniform smacking a baton in his hand is just a regular guy not intimidating anyone.
The red-faced county clerk Kathy Nickolaus said, the gaffe occurred when her office sent some newspapers the same sample ballots that had been marked to test the voting machines. “It was human error” she said…. The tainted sample ballots are being published in newspapers in Brookfield, Menomonee Falls, Mukwanago and Sussex. Along with both candidates’ names and detailed instruction on how to complete a ballot, there it is — a hand drawn solid line designating a vote for Dwyer
Ooops! Human error again! Oh well. I'm sure everything is fine in this case though.
Using Lies again, Hasen says that "votes were found". They were in plain sight from the moment the poles closed and were duly reported on all internal election reports. Only the quick press release prior to canvass used a bad total that left out the known count in one town. Found votes are uncounted paper ballots that mysteriously appear several days later.
AP didn't look for an error, because they liked the numbers. It wasn't lying or dishonest, it was just bad journalism. We all know they would have looked for just such a thing if Prosser was up by 200 at the time. This is the bias. It's not what they tell you, it's what they don't, and often because they just don't want to look for inconvenient truths.
Okay, maybe I should clarify...
I don't think that anyone was claiming any *particular* fraud as if it were proven in this particular race.
Claiming that systemic fraud is a fact isn't quite the same thing.
I think there was fraud, it was overwhelmingly on the Dem side, but was insufficient...this time.
Again... no evidence cited!
"Ooops! Human error again! Oh well. I'm sure everything is fine in this case though."
You want her strung up, or just in blocks?
And there was no error in the election, just the press reporting on it. You really miss that lie don't you? You were all attached to it and spooning and drooling.
As I mentioned before, Hasen is a smart guy but he lets his hack tendencies take over too often.
1) Fraud is wrong. It must be invetigated and prosecuted, period.
2) Reform the election process so only entitled voters can vote and the counting process is beyond reproach.
How can anyone, in good faith, argue against these principals?
Why is it that the Republican party consistently pushes for laws to protect the integrity of elections and the Dems consistently oppose those laws? In Wisconsin, where Althouse has lived for many years, voter ID laws have been vetoed by a Dem governor 3 times.
The big city Dem political machines have been the most corrupt part of American politics for over a 100 years.
Seriously Althouse, if you don't realize that Dems are much, much more corrupt than the Republicans, you just aren't paying attention. Maybe that lack of attention partially explains your vote for Obama. Speaking of Obama, did you know that Chicago (from whence Obama hails politically), is famous for corrupt politics and was the instrument (under the leadership of Mayor Daley the first) for stealing the 1960 election for Jack Kennedy?
Nice post, Ann. On a related topic: Since you said recently that you studied Bush v. Gore, I wonder if you would comment on a question by someone who never did:
How does one understand this five to four decision, conservatives jurists vs. liberals? It's easy to understand such a split for some case where the issues reflect conservative/liberal principles: The conservatives will tend to decide more conservatively, etc.
But how does that explain Bush v. Gore, where every single conservative backed the Republican candidate, and all the liberals backed the Democrat? Wild coincidence? Did conservative and liberal principles have something to do with the issues of the case? Doesn't it seem as though at least one of the sides was voting for partisan reasons?
What happened there?
"Again... no evidence cited!"
Obviously, just an opinion. Do the investigation and prove me wrong. I'd love the outcome no matter which way it went, but I'd prefer to be proven wrong.
Matthew Knee at LI has comment on effect of Prosser on WI Senate recalls.
http://legalinsurrection
.blogspot.com/2011/04/
now-more-mr-nice-guy-how
-to-oppose.html
Obviously, just an opinion. Do the investigation and prove me wrong. I'd love the outcome no matter which way it went, but I'd prefer to be proven wrong.
It's not up to me to prove a negative. The assumption is there is no fraud until proven otherwise.
I'm a Replican, and still cry fraud. Cetainly what happened in Waukesha isn't...simple error in reporting. I'd be for a detailed recount and examination of votes. I seriously wonder if the Dems will be with voter ID legislation on the horizon. They won't win the SC election, but exposure of abuse that will be found on their side takes away their only rebuttal to voter ID: "disfranchisement!" While maybe not stopping coming legislation it may allow changes at the margins, and future repeal if and when they get a majority.
I think they will forego a recount and focus on just Waukesha County with some "Hail Mary" legal challenges. These will fail but satisfy their base and keep them energized with a "we were screwed" belief for the recalls.
Here Alex:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/sep/2/dead-in-ohio-but-still-voting/
How many links to how many incidents do you want? A dozen? Two? Why bother?
"Cite!"
[citation given]
"Mere proof does not convince me!"
Tedious does not begin to describe this game.
I would really like to know what he was thinking when he said Democrats wouldn't cry fraud.
Garage, humans error. No one thinks they don't. But when they do it's generally understood what happened and why. Not reporting a whole town's total votes is a big oopsie, for certain, but everyone can understand what happened and why.
Finding a box of ballots in a car trunk or behind a filing cabinet is less easy to understand. When our precinct ballots went missing for four hours while volunteers waited to do the hand count, where were they?
I've dealt with having to have physical security over classified data storage during transfer and I do not understand how *anyone* can lose track of a box of ballots or find them in a car trunk.
Humans error. So explain the error that results in ballots in a car trunk or simply missing for several hours while in transit. Try.
MikeR, The Scotus vote to stop the count was 7-2. Gore made a mistake by asking for only a recount in 4 counties. This caused time to run out and caused the constitutional problem of equation protection. Federal law gave FL legislature the authority to decide election on December 12, 2000.
"It's not up to me to prove a negative."
I didn't mean you, of course, but your right, so just forget the whole thing, nothing to see, the right guy won, let's move on.
Gore also did not even have enough votes with illegal partial recount he requested
Just because Prosser won by 7000, instead of losing by 200, doesn't mean that illegally cast ballots and fraud wouldn't have wrongly decided a close election.
It only means it didn't decide this particular election. Any shenanigans that may have happened on Tuesday still happened.
You need a photo ID to write a check, buy cigarettes or alcohol, drive, get on a plane, collect WIC or use a Quest card, and work. It is absolutely ridiculous that presenting one to vote is a civil rights violation. And there is no honest motive for opposing such a basic and innocuous anti-fraud measure.
poor bagoh, seeing bogeymen around every corner. What a sad way to live.
people with problems getting IDs tend to vote for Democrats.
As many have already asked, "Who are these people?" How is it that my then-18 year old son was able to get an ID that allowed him into bars and these "people" can't get IDs?
Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore.
Surely you noted the multiple comments not shouting fraud or is your assumption that when someone agrees with you they must be left of center (if only for the moment)
Ooops! Human error again! Oh well. I'm sure everything is fine in this case though.
No not fine. The source of the error was typical for a "rely on a person to get a rote task correct 100% of the time" sort of system. I believe that I'd read that this local official had resisted modernizing her system. Well to quote a certain inner city pastor:
the chickens have come home to roost
Yes, she made a mistake but the system she insisted on set her up for that mistake. That's not ok.
George said...
"I'm a Replican"
What's a Replican, George?
"Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore."
No, what we're claiming (we hope) is that the updated totals put the election outside the margin of fraud. With a lead of 7000 votes, the Democrats' usual stunts are probably not enough to change the outcome. At that point the fraud doesn't disappear, it just becomes irrelevant in this particular case.
We still support measures to reduce fraud throughout the election process. Why one side opposes reasonable anti-fraud measures is a mystery (unless they someohow depend on it). Now, if there was also a away to cancel out Evan Thomas' 15% Democratic media advantage (which I think is considerably less than 15% but nonetheless very real) then we might actually get a really fair election where the true opinion of the populace is accurately represented. You've got to respect the way any Republican can win in the currently rigged system. A 1% victory is really probably somewhere around 4%, 5%, or 6%. A 1% loss is mostly likely really a win.
Phil 3:14
There is no reason to talk about fraud when you win election by more than margain of fraud.
Humans error. So explain the error that results in ballots in a car trunk or simply missing for several hours while in transit. Try.
So I was going to download the ballot box to my PC and it really wouldn't fit. I tried the DVD drive and that slot in the back where the little metal piece is bent, but no go. So I said to myself, you know what would hold this ballot box? A car trunk, that's what. So I took the box out to the parking lot -- all the other poll workers were saying, hey! hey! where're you going with the ballot box, and I was like, someone call the computer guy because my computer is too small for this box, and I need to put it someplace safe. So I go to my car and I pop open the trunk and I couldn't believe. There was a ballot box already in the trunk. I had dropped in a spare on Halloween night and completely forgot about it.
Paul, I'm trying to get through the Wikipedia description, as I am clueless. But it sounds like some of the most important decisions were 5-4. 7-2 was that you can't use different standards in different counties.
Not reporting a whole town's total votes is a big oopsie, for certain, but everyone can understand what happened and why.
I don't understand why this woman wasn't fired long ago after numerous election scandals, and why she continues to insist on holding fucking election data on a personal computer. We have no idea either way how many votes were cast in that county.
@ Phil: Really? I respond in a thread titled "Election law blogger Rick Hasen says only Republicans cry fraud... and then must take it back." and you ask this question? You can't fill in the blank on my typo? Really? Really?
I took my homeschooled 10-year-old to sit for the Iowa Test of Basic Skills this week. In order for him to do this, I had to produce ID, preferably photo. We used his "Y" ID (which had a photo) and his library card. The first time I did, I had to go to the safe deposit box at the bank and dig out his social security card (which of course we're all required to get for our young kids these days) and birth certificate.
Tell me again why it's so onerous for adults to have to produce ID to vote?
I'm with those who have never understood this, do not now understand it, and will go to their graves failing to understand it.
The Demoncrats still committed voter fraud, it just wasn't successful. Unfortunately, most local governments don't have the resources or inclination to really do something about it, but if they did, the Dems would be in serious trouble b/c the majority of the time, they're the ones doing the crimes.
I wonder if the Racine County boycott threats (that made the WSJ) and Jesse Jackson setting up camp (making pro-Kloppy speaches in churches) here made the difference for Prosser. Those things are so over the top that it has to help center-right types.
@garage mahal:
We have no idea either way how many votes were cast in that county.
That's not true, the Democrat co-chair confirmed the totals.
12,000 people on the voter rolls who shouldn't be in Colorado? And 5,000 of them voted...
ACORN in every state,,, a quiet issue now, but that groundwork still lying there like a snake waiting to rear its ugly head...
This is only one race, and the fraud is much bigger ongoing issue that has to be investigated, exposed and stopped.
I don't care what party you are, none of us should be in favor of ACORN and that kind of fraud. And if you are in favor of it because it benefitted Obama this time, you better think about how you're going to feel when the shoe is on the other foot. It's never ok.
So I hope - HOPE, unfortunately being a 4-letter word anymore - I hope that the investigations into voter fraud continue.
I respect Prof. Hasen, and I've found him entirely decent and professional and honest in several exchanges I've had with him on my blog.
But he's a partisan.
wv: prene, which is a homonym for something I think Kloppy did too soon.
In my state, local "quick markets" have taken to saying they reserve the right to card people buying cigarettes or beer if they look under 40. In other words, they ask for drivers licenses or some other form of photo ID with a birthdate.
Tell me again why it's so onerous for adults to have to produce ID to vote?
"I'm a Replican"
What's a Replican, George?
Whether you're Replican or Replicant, you're More Human Than Human.
"I'm with those who have never understood this, do not now understand it, and will go to their graves failing to understand it."
Oh, but of course we do understand. It's as plain as the nose on your face.
The reason why this loss is so devestating is that Democrats knew that they were likly to win any recount with a small Klop lead because Democrats generally tend to gain votes in such recounts - or at least it seems like they always gain votes. Democrats know this too, which is why they were confident of victory on Wednesday evening.
Original Mike:
; )
Garage Mahal:
Is the Democrat who confirmed the story ALSO in on it?
Several years ago I went to buy some pseudoephedrine for my wife and had to produce a drivers license, sign a form, have my personal identifiable information entered into a state run computer system. This was during a fight over a bill required voter-ID.
Obviously a laughable situation. But what do all the dear Democratic voters who the Dems are so eager to protect do when they get a bad cold?
In my state we have to have an ID to vote now. That's a good first step.
n: I've had a similar experience here in Iowa, which instituted such procedures due to a meth lab problem in the state.
The "onerous" argument against requiring ID to vote is just so much smoke being blown up our asses. It's always been bullshit. Those who make it, so far as I'm concerned, are dishonest and insulting to anyone with even a whiff of intelligence.
Can't state it more plainly than that!
I think the only thing we don't understand is who do they think they are kidding?
"We have no idea either way how many votes were cast in that county."
That's a pile of crap, Garage. We have every idea how many votes were cast in that county. As Gabriel pointed out, the Democratic representative at the count confirmed the totals were accurate. Not only that, but if you listen to the press conference, right at the very beginning (around the 15 second mark) you'll hear the speaker say this:
The purpose of the canvass is to verify the unofficial results reported on election night and
reconcile them with the actual tape totals.
So they have a record of every vote. They know exactly how many votes were cast.
I hope and trust at least some of the armchair election workers on this blog will sometime be obliged to copy their data into their state's computer system!
Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore.
Of course there was fraud. The Democrats always attempt fraud and manipulation of elections in order to defeat democracy and to get their way.
However, the more massive turn out of motivated conservatives was able to outnember even the votes of the dead and cartoon characters.... this time.
Elections are too important to be this sloppy.
We need mandatory voter ID and registration confirmation well in advance of any elections. If you can't get off of your dead ass in time to register to vote, you lose the priviledge.
We should go back to paper ballots that can be re counted if needed. Maybe even the blue ink on the finger to prevent duplicate voting.
They also ned to take TIME to count the votes in their entirety, instead of this breathless minute by minute MSM so called reporting.
It still won't stop voter fraud, but it would be a start.
MadisonMan said...
He was half right.
Suddenly, right-leaning commenters on althouse aren't claiming fraud anymore.
4/8/11 11:50 AM
There is a difference between votes actually cast and counted but inadvertently not reported and votes 'cast' but not counted and suddenly discovered in car trunks. I'm sure most people including the usual progressives commenters on this blog have sufficient neurons to comprehend the difference.
@MikeR said...
There is no comparison between the FL 2000 election and this one. In the FL election all the properly cast votes were counted and recounted and Bush won. Gore tried to to with the help of the FL Supreme Court (very liberal then and now) to change the election rules in place for that specific election. Gore wanted to recount 4 counties out of 67 and count improperly cast ballots as votes for him.The Fl Supreme Court went along with this outright attempt to steal an election. The US Supreme Court told them to go and stick it where the sun doesn't shine. Change the rules if you like but that only takes place for the next election and has to be applied equally to all counties. Like I said there is no comparison. Now what about Minnesota where ballots by magic appear in car trunks? That is the typical democrat vote fraud along with illegal aliens voting, senile people being 'helped' in casting their votes, bums given money to vote, fighting voter ID requirements, same day registration, dead voters all necessary for them to win because they are increasing incapable of getting live genuine citizens in full possession of their civil rights and who are not demented or the drug or alcohol addicted or entirely dependent on 'entitlements' to vote for them. Perhaps the democrats ought to think it through and realize its not the messenger but the message they are sending that isn't selling and that is their problem. Asking taxpayers to both over pay and receive substandard value for their money just to benefit others is hardly the wisest course of action.
Hasen, like all the Lefties here, stuck his foot in his mouth and can't get it out.
For one, I've said all along the whole thing should be investigated and a recount done.
If there was vote fraud, let's find it now, rather than wait until '12.
MikeR, This law was adopted after the election fraud stole a Presidential election from Grover Cleveland.
TITLE 3 > CHAPTER 1 > § 5
Prev | Next § 5. Determination of controversy as to appointment of electors
If any State shall have provided, by laws enacted prior to the day fixed for the appointment of the electors, for its final determination of any controversy or contest concerning the appointment of all or any of the electors of such State, by judicial or other methods or procedures, and such determination shall have been made at least six days before the time fixed for the meeting of the electors, such determination made pursuant to such law so existing on said day, and made at least six days prior to said time of meeting of the electors, shall be conclusive, and shall govern in the counting of the electoral votes as provided in the Constitution, and as hereinafter regulated, so far as the ascertainment of the electors appointed by such State is concerned.
Link-http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode03/usc_sec_03_00000005----000-.html
Mad Man is usually sane--I fear he jumped the shark on this one
Re Gore vs Bush- 7 justices found that there was a Federal Due Process violation. It is obvious that Gore was trying to "game the system" and that it was unfair. Do you not agree that there should be uniform standards on determining the validity of a ballot? That these standards should be clear before the recounts and even before the election and that they cannot be changed after the voting?
I finally took the time to watch the Klopper declare victory at the press conference. OMG this woman is a blithering idiot. Who in their right mind would want her on the bench.
Paul, cubanbob, I don't care about the Bush v. Gore case. I want to understand, What does it mean that the conservative and liberal justices split on such partisan lines, where the issues involved don't seem to cause it?
One possible answer: I have the history wrong (if that's true). Second answer: The conservatives villainously just did what they wanted, though the facts of the issues were obviously against them. Third answer: The liberals villainously just did what they wanted, though the facts of the issues were obviously against them. Fourth answer: The issues were subtle, and each justice subconsciously made his determination with a tilt based on his politics.
Anyhow, that's what I'm asking. "Don't take a bribe, for a bribe makes blind the perceptive..."
Roux - she has proclaimed that she would overturn legislation enacted by republicans.
Those who support her are progressive/democrat/communist/stoners, that is, they are not in their right mind. Never have been, never will be. Scroll down and watch the Meade interview with the loony tune leftist - some people just don't know how to say no.
I wouldn't claim that Democrats systematically perpetrate vote fraud, but my experience is that public employee unions sometimes did in Masssachusetts. I was an unwitting participant in a "get out the vote" scheme 25 years ago where a bus full of people voted at multiple polling places and was paid for each vote. I felt uneasy with this and got off the bus at the earliest opportunity. This was only in the Democratic primary election where the goal was to get the union favored candidate elected. There was no need to do this in the general election because this district only elected Democrats. I have no reason to suspect that this type of old school voter fraud still goes on because it would seem to be easier to do with absentee ballots.
vw: verkloppt - How you feel when you have to un-run your victory lap.
Roux - she has proclaimed that she would overturn legislation enacted by republicans.
Got a link to that, Shitty?
MikeR, The 7-2 vote finding the Equal Protection provision was violated was bipartisan. Fl law gave the legislature the right to appoint electors on 12/12/2000 if they had not been decides by then. Federal law cited before had given them this safe harbor provision. Time ran out on Gore.
Thank you both for the coverage of this wild ride. I am in California and have followed the battle there through your blog. This should convince all of the need for Voter ID laws. The unions will only come back at the next election with even more outsiders unless you take action now. It is too late for us in CA, so don't make the same mistake we did. -signed by the frog that was slowly simmered.
garage mahal said...
"We have no idea either way how many votes were cast in that county."
Of course we do.
A record of those votes is on file at the Waukesha County Clerk's Office. Kathy Nickolaus' mistake was to incorrectly tabulate those votes in the Access database on her computer.
No actual votes were lost, found or otherwise manipulated. Any errors in the tabulations made by Nickolaus eventually would have been discovered (and, in fact, were discovered) during canvassing when her tabulation would be (and were) cross-checked with the actual vote totals on file. The Democrat on the Waukesha County Board of Canvassers, Ramona Kitzinger, participated in the canvassing process and didn't hesitate to corroborate Nickolaus' explanation of how the Brookfield votes went unreported.
Honestly, to say that we have no idea how many votes were cast in Waukesha County is to be either ignorant of the facts or deliberately misleading.
This Democrat never played the fraud card. Check my comments over the past few days. One of your wingnut liars tried to accuse me of having cried fraud, but that was just one more lie.
In light of the extraordinary events, I do think the Waukesha County results should be hand recounted at that county's expense. If the county won't pay because they want to protect the stupid Republican bimbo who is the clerk there, then Kloppenburg should pay for it.
But I fully expect that the vote results will be shown to be correct as reported the second time. I believe that gross incompetence, not fraud, was behind the stupid Republican bimbo's first report. You might notice that I'm unforgiving. The reason isn't that she's a Republican, or that she's stupid. It's because she's been told twice before to clean up her act, and didn't. You reap what you sow.
I also think that Kloppenburg is wasting her time by hiring Perkins Coie for the recount. She should focus on verifying the Waukesha results -- everyone ought to want to do that, including and maybe especially Prosser -- and be done with it.
As for the "fraud" crapola, it's telling on both sides. For a UW law professor, I find Althouse to be no less of a brainless knee-jerk whackjob than those on Daily Kos who, when th e second announcement came in, were spazzing out about Karl Rove, Florida, Ohio, and all the rest.
It was just a stupid bimbo in Waukesha. Really, that's it. And had the results there been as first reported, it wouldn't have been union thugs and communist students. It would have been a defeat in a close election.
Kloppenburg's "victory" statement was foolish, and I feel embarrassed for her. If she doesn't regret it, she ought to. The worst, though, was the governor's sour grapes about Madison. People can be stupid liars on the Internet, and a college professor can cater to them. But the governor of Wisconsin had no business making those results into "Madison vs. the real people," especially when 31 counties other than Dane gave Koppenburg more votes than Prosser.
So do your victory dances, but I'd say you revealed more about yourselves than you might realize.
It strikes me that now that Wisconsin is an undeniably "purple" State, the Dems will actually have to spend more time and money there next cycle.
Libfools, the gift that keeps on giving.
It strikes me that now that Wisconsin is an undeniably "purple" State, the Dems will actually have to spend more time and money there next cycle.
Libfools, the gift that keeps on giving.
This is not a secret. Obama came to Wisconsin twice in 2008. Or was it thrice?
Honestly, to say that we have no idea how many votes were cast in Waukesha County is to be either ignorant of the facts or deliberately misleading.
You may be confident. I sure as hell ain't. Walker, and Nicklaus, have proven their word means shit. Thankfully the GAB is going to investigate before they certify anything.
I don't know if there was fraud or not, but if there was, you've got to hand it to Prosser's people for doing it right. If you're going to cheat, you should do it by thousands of votes and avoid a recount, not a pissy few hundred like the Dems do.
It doesn't have to be a secret to make me happy.
wv: eness
Untouchable autograph?
Placeholder,
You like to toss in the filthy teabagger sexual innuendos and now you repeatedly refer to the county official as a bimbo, another sexual slur.
You have a problem with either or both maturity and a healthy mind. You should restrict your commenting to places like DU or Kos where such problems are not only common, but close to being the norm. You shouldn't afflict polite company with your cesspool vantage point.
Don't bother with Placeholder, he's a full-blown phony. He's still insisting that none of the things recorded by Meade and Ann ever happened, despite the mountains of videos and photos available just a short "scroll down" away.
He's fun to kick around a little on slow days, but otherwise useless.
Seems to me that Republicans who think that every important election involves Democratic voting fraud - are making a big mistake dropping the issue whenever the election turns out not to be close, or whenever they win. In this election, for example, all the conservatives seem quite sure that there was lots of fraud by liberal - fortunately, not enough. Well, prove it. Aren't conservatives supposed to be real motivated these days? Get some volunteers to keep working on the case.
Liberals, who claim that voter fraud is just a convenient excuse conservatives use to claim to be victims, you should support such an investigation as well. Prove those conservatives are dead wrong.
placeholder:
I meant to include an observation on the final paragraph of your comment from 2:09pm.
What do you think resorting to the teabagger epithet and now being obsessed with characterizing Nickolaus as a bimbo says about you?
You make these allusions and then try to peddle yourself as a dispassionate observer who is above casting petty aspirations on the election process but just wants to see all parties satisfied with it.
What a transparent fraud you are.
Placeholder, I have to agree with your extensive comments, including the ill timed victory announcement and the usual Walker vs Madison meme.
Fantastically entertaining little rant, Placeholder. Wow.
wingnut...liars...lie...stupid Republican bimbo...stupid Republican bimbo's...she's stupid...crapola...brainless knee-jerk whackjob...stupid bimbo...sour grapes...stupid liars.
Hee hee.
Republicans might want to win support for photo ID requirements, with the ulterior motive that people with problems getting IDs tend to vote for Democrats.
Good Grief.
Republicans want photo id voting requirements because people who vote illegally vote for DEMONcrats. Virtually exclusively.
You like to toss in the filthy teabagger sexual innuendos and now you repeatedly refer to the county official as a bimbo, another sexual slur.
It was the Tea Baggers themselves who first used it. When the liberals started laughing, the Tea Baggers realized they'd made a boo-boo. Your holy outrage is laughable.
And Waukesha's county clerk is indeed a stupid Republican bimbo. Someone need to find her a job she can do. Metermaid, maybe. But none of this changes the big issue, which is that Prosser won and the governor is an asshole.
Boy roachy you and Placeholder are sure sore losers.
I mean I am used to that from Garage and all but I can blame that on bad road kill sandwiches.
You win some and you lose some. Some times the elitist hippie commie side comes out short.
Sorry pally.
p.s.: Maybe you're right. Maybe I shouldn't have called her a bimbo. Maybe I should have called her a total bitch. From the stories about her long before this happened, "total bitch" sounded about right.
Maybe she and Shirley Abrahamson could form a club together, except that I think Abrahamson is smarter.
Republicans might want to win support for photo ID requirements, with the ulterior motive that people with problems getting IDs tend to vote for Democrats
Republicans....this one at least.... thinks that there is no ulterior motive. The motive is to make election that is legal and trustworthy.
You have to show ID for almost every other civilized activity. Renting movies, renting a car, buying cold medicine for God's sake. Why shouldn't you have to show ID or be properly registered to do one of the most important civic activities that we have? Voting.
There is no ulterior motive to disenfranchise anyone. There is no legal reason that people cannot get ID. There is no financial reason that people can't get legal ID. If paying $5.00 for an ID card is such a hardship, then start a charity and legal assistance fund for those few people who have trouble. If it is such a hardship to get ID, how in the HELL do they get on with the rest of their lives or collect welfare?? Give me a break.
The motive is to make sure that elections are LEGAL and to prevent anyone of any stripe, political persuasion from committing fraud.
Placeholder is making our left leaning commenters appear sane.
You, placeholder, are one idiot fully deserving of the scorn that has been heaped upon you-
How does it feel to be munching on that shit sandwich the WI voters handed to you
BTW the election is a done deal, it will be certified by Wednesday LATEST.
Boy roachy you and Placeholder are sure sore losers.
Another day, another wingnut lie. I've always accepted the results. I wasn't the one whining "fraud!" when it wasn't going my way.
Funny thing about elections: There's always another one.
placeholder said:
'It was the Tea Baggers themselves who first used it. When the liberals started laughing...'
The Taxed Enough Already party - TEA Party - used tea as a symbol for resistance to excessive taxation in reference to the Boston Tea Party. Teabags were brought to one of the first events. Why not? Hand, and easy to handle than loose tea. But still a symbol of an event at the birth of this country when ordinary people stood up and said no to the tyranny of being taxed unfairly.
Great sentiments. One that any American should be proud of.
Except liberal asswipes like you. Liberals latched onto the symbol and distorted it from being a proud historic reference into a sexual innuendo that all the kool kids could titter like middleschoolers about.
And that's what indicts you for what you are, or to paraphrase your own words:
'...you revealed more about yourself than you might realize.'
Fucking worm.
Placeholder - by insisting on using the sexually degrading term "teabagger" you degrade yourself.
BTW do you notice that since the liberals started using "teabagger" like a bunch of high-school kids they've lost every election that matters? The adults who VOTE have had enough.
Scratch a hard core liberal and you find a misonygist, homophopic, classist and all around asshole--as our friend placeholder has so amply demonstrated.
What a douchnozzle.
placeholder and rv, same here.
I have a friend, more or less, who is big on that "they used the term first" thing. Well, I have seen no evidence of that, but it is not relevant in any case. If someone, Placeholder for instance, were to call themselves an idiot, would it then be okay for everyone else to call Placeholder an idiot? Tempting, perhaps, but not okay.
In other words, Placeholder, "They said it first so it is okay for me to say it" is, shall we say, pretty weak tea.
I'm seeing stories of both candidates 'lawyering up'. Plus there is a report that the recount could be $1 million and if it falls outside the threshold the requesting candidate pays it. I guess my question is what happens where they both accepted public financing and then supposedly cannot accept any contributions. How do they pay for attorneys and a possible recall?
George;
@ Phil: Really? I respond in a thread titled "Election law blogger Rick Hasen says only Republicans cry fraud... and then must take it back." and you ask this question? You can't fill in the blank on my typo? Really? Really?
Sorry you lost me. What in my comment are you responding to?
"I have a friend, more or less, who is big on that "they used the term first" thing. Well, I have seen no evidence of that, but it is not relevant in any case. If someone, Placeholder for instance, were to call themselves an idiot,..."
Innocent minds.
I think some of the Tea Party did use "bagger" once or twice, as well as using tea *bags* in imagery. My teenagers play some online-shooter game where an insult is "teabagging" a dead player so I sort of cringed because I recognized the word... but how many people do?
How many middle aged working persons had the first clue?
It's not at all like Placeholder calling himself an idiot, it's more as if conservatives started snickering like naughty school boys every time progressives used a fist icon in Wisconsin.
Funny how they don't do that.
Andereson Cooper used teabagger term first and he regretted it was man enough to apologize. Is Placeholder really that stupid or is he a moby?
Give the devil his due. Placeholder has a valid point. The votes in the county should be recounted at county expense. Not that there was any indication of fraud but any perception of fraud should be dispelled for the good of the system.
MikeR said...
Paul, cubanbob, I don't care about the Bush v. Gore case. I want to understand, What does it mean that the conservative and liberal justices split on such partisan lines, where the issues involved don't seem to cause it?
One possible answer: I have the history wrong (if that's true). Second answer: The conservatives villainously just did what they wanted, though the facts of the issues were obviously against them. Third answer: The liberals villainously just did what they wanted, though the facts of the issues were obviously against them. Fourth answer: The issues were subtle, and each justice subconsciously made his determination with a tilt based on his politics.
Anyhow, that's what I'm asking. "Don't take a bribe, for a bribe makes blind the perceptive..."
4/8/11 1:43 PM
Mike the fundamental premise of your observation is fatally flawed.The politics of the judge should be irrelevant to the judges decision. The judge should be expected to have a proper judicial temperament which means the judge should look at the facts and the law and let them take the matter to its proper conclusion and not start with an idealized outcome and reason backwards. There plenty of liberal judges who perfectly practice this in spite of the outcome not being congruent with their personal beliefs just as there are conservative judges who also act this way. Its the ones that do not, on either side that are delegitimizing our legal system. The law should be predictable.
A given set of facts should have a predictable outcome under a specific law. Otherwise it becomes a crapshoot and invites disrespect. Laws may be bad policy but constitutional and the converse as well. However judges should never be legislating and the fact that this is becoming more common place should be worrisome to all thinking people no matter where they lie on the political spectrum. Principles should not be situational.
In other words, Placeholder, "They said it first so it is okay for me to say it" is, shall we say, pretty weak tea.
I've always believed that people are entitled to their own name. Call yourself a Tea Bagger, and a tea Bagger you shall be. Ain't my fault they didn't know what it meant, slangwise.
p.s.: Could've been been worse. They could have promised they were going to blow the liberal house down, by means of a series of blow jobs.
I"'ve always believed that people are entitled to their own name."
Liar. Or you'd let them be entitled to their own name, which hasn't changed. It's Tea Party.
"Call yourself a Tea Bagger, and a tea Bagger you shall be. Ain't my fault they didn't know what it meant, slangwise."
No, it's your fault that you *did* know what it meant, and that you chose not to be honest about your own graceless decisions, portraying them as some sort of moral high ground.
But maybe that is what moral high ground looks like from over there? Something akin to Beavis and Butthead?
It's revealing in a lot of ways. The moral scolds who like to think and to tell us that they, unlike the rest of us, are not *haters*, think that sexual slurs and insults are the moral high ground.
And we're supposed to trust them with government?
'I've always believed that people are entitled to their own name. Call yourself a Tea Bagger, and a tea Bagger you shall be. Ain't my fault they didn't know what it meant, slangwise.'
What a rotten soul you have.
I'm a Republican election judge in Chicago. Our procedures are better than Wisconsin's.
For instance, we never run out of ballots. That's because each precinct is supplied with more ballots than there are registered voters. (This even though one can also vote an electronic ballot.)
A voter must present ID and proof of residence when registering. A voter may register by mail, but at the first election must present ID to the election judges.
We don't have same-day registration, like Wisconsin. We don't have same-day registration and voting with those votes commingled with others so that even if the registration is shown to be fraudulent, the vote still counts.
No electioneering is allowed in polling places. At the mayoral and aldermanic elections earlier this year, investigators from the Board of Elections and the County State's Attorney came by to make sure no one had left palm cards or flyers in the voting booths.
How strict are they? The alderman had sent a box of donuts to each precinct for the judges. The State's Attorney guy made sure that the box (with "Compliments of Alderman Snerd" on it) wasn't out where a voter might see it.
There are rumors of manipulation with regard to absentee voting at nursing homes, but I've never confirmed it.
What else? Precinct vote totals are automatically transmitted to Election Central by a quasi cell phone call, so there's no chance of garbling - as in NY's 1st Congressional District last year.
As to the Waukesha incident - something very similar happened in Alabama in 2002. Mobile County changed its initial report and took away several thousand votes for incumbent Governor Siegelman, which swung the election. However, if one looks at the vote totals for other offices and counties, it's clear that the initial report was in error.
Hopefully Placeholder is a placeholder for a more intelligent, more thoughtful and less senselessly nasty liberal commenter to come.
"I've always believed that people are entitled to their own name. Call yourself a Tea Bagger, and a tea Bagger you shall be. Ain't my fault they didn't know what it meant, slangwise."
I am henceforth referring to myself as "Smartest Person in the World." I realize that "Smartest and Sexiest" wouldn't pass the laugh test (given my picture), so I resisted the temptation. I also thought about using an unpronouncable symbol, just to be cutting edge, but that idea has been tried (and found wanting). Although if I had, I could then eventually have had everyone refer to me simply as "The Smartest."
It might be that there really is fraud, and it's predominantly on the Democrat side ...
Google says that Madison is less than 150 miles from Chicago via I-90, and yet you write that there might be some fraud on the Democrat's side? May I take it, Madam Professor, that you slept through your history classes when they talked about the Daley machine?
Re: Teabagger.
Not a Tea Party Member, but members should embrace the word. That will dull the meaning. Liberals don't understand that.
Joe, Embracing a smear works really well and has a long History. I think that if it was going to work in this case people would have naturally tried it.
It's revealing in a lot of ways. The moral scolds who like to think and to tell us that they, unlike the rest of us, are not *haters*, think that sexual slurs and insults are the moral high ground.
And we're supposed to trust them with government?
If I were a certain victorious wingnut judge, I might tell you what a total bitch you are. But I'm not a certain victorious wingnut judge, so I think I'll just call you a laughable, typical wingnut hypocrite who says whatever comes to her mind, such as it is, if she thinks it's a zinger at the time, regardless of how obviously it might contradict what she claims to "believe."
Placeholder:
A question: placeholder for ____ ?
If Placeholder is right that "they said it first so it is all right to call them that" then we all have the right to use the "n....." word as well since they call themselves that so we all have the right to use it. Sound good to you, Placeholder? The logic is the same.
@dick, of course you have the right to use the n-word. I believe people should express their true selves, so please, by all means do so often. Show the world your real feelings!
Okay, I'm late to the party on this one and haven't read the comments yet, but I'd just like to say that there is no Republican analog for an organization like ACORN, whose primary reason for existence seemed to be to help Democrats fraudulently win elections.
I'd also like to note, as a Floridian, that everyone who votes here is required to show photo ID. Laugh all you want about the 2000 election, but can anyone waltz into a precinct in your state during an election and vote without having to prove who they are and that they are voting legitimately, i.e., only once?
"Mike the fundamental premise of your observation is fatally flawed.The politics of the judge should be irrelevant to the judges decision." Cubanbob, we all agree with that. I'm asking, did it apply in Bush v. Gore, and if not, why not?
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