A recount in [the Wisconsin Supreme Court] race... seems inevitable, and it is not clear who will ultimately take the seat on the Wisconsin bench. But if this expensive and nasty race ends up in protracted litigation, it could undermine public confidence in both the judiciary and Wisconsin’s electoral process, especially if, as I expect, supporters of Prosser raise ugly allegations of voter fraud....Don't dare say fraud!
While the fraud allegations [in various recent elections] remain stuck in the public’s mind, no proof of any systemic fraud has been unearthed. Instead, close examination of elections show, time and again, that our election systems are not perfect – but this is due to human error and not fraud....To become contentious and partisan? It's been ridiculously contentious and partisan here in Wisconsin since mid-February. It's hard to understand why the Republicans should stand down now. Prosser was way ahead and would have easily won if Democrats hadn't turned what was supposed to be a nonpartisan election into a referendum on the Republican governor they hate. It took Prosser a long time to realize he had to fight like a politician and not just sit quietly modeling traditional judicial demeanor. Outrageous, dirty politics was played against the old jurist, and he had little idea what to do about it. Now, his advocates are supposed to play nice so things won't get ugly? We've been in uglyville since February.
[I]f the Wisconsin Supreme Court race goes into extra innings, I expect things to become especially contentious and partisan.
If Kloppenburg can eke out a victory, I wouldn’t be surprised if Prosser supporters play the fraud card. Professor Ann Althouse already raised the specter of fraud in her final post on election results last night. I am sure that others will trumpet now-discredited allegations of voter fraud in Wisconsin, especially about alleged fraud in heavily Democratic and minority communities.Now discredited? See, that's the meme among Democrats. There is no fraud. You're not even supposed to talk about "[t]he possibility of some fraud" — which was the phrase I used in my 11:55 p.m. post on election night. Note that I wasn't even making an accusation. I was just trying to sign off and go to bed. Let the day's own trouble be sufficient for the day. But the mere mention of fraud triggers the reaction: Don't talk about fraud! Fraud?! There is no fraud! Everybody knows there is no fraud, and anybody who mentions it is, by that mere mention, an agent of discord and deceit. This is an effort to delegitimatize the very interest in the problem of fraud. I expect a label to emerge, a label like "birther." Ugh! She's a frauder.
In the last decade, the now-defunct Americans for Voting Rights focused on such spurious and grossly exaggerated claims out of Wisconsin, which Lorraine Minnite has methodically debunked. But that won’t stop the allegations from resurfacing, and be taken credibly by those who want to believe it.So... because past claims of fraud have been "methodically debunked" — have they? — we should stop even looking for fraud? We'll only suffer if we keep checking for cheaters? This sounds way too preemptive to me. I've spent the last 2 months in a vortex of political ugliness and saw it grafted onto the judicial election. I saw frantically impassioned protesters grasping at the symbolism of this election and building an intense shared feeling of entitlement to shift the politics of this state. I heard the phrase "by any means necessary" more than once.
It is the voters of Wisconsin and those who depend upon the state supreme court’s system of impartial justice who are sure to suffer.
In this context, Prosser proponents have every right to drag us through the search for fraud one more time. I hope they don't find it, and Professor Hasen can add this new example to his next there-is-no-fraud column. But there's a 204 vote margin in this crazy election. We need to feel confident that the outcome is correct.
UPDATE: Hey, suddenly Prosser is ahead in the vote tally. I wonder if the fraud poo-pooers are singing a different tune now.
Posts
170 comments:
Start with out-of-state UW students. Cross-reference their Madison voter registration with that of their hometown.
Move on to in-state UW students. Cross-reference their Madison voter registration with that of their hometown.
My guess is that there are far more than 204 left-leaning voters who will be caught doing the double-dip.
There is probably no way of knowing who is the "real" winner with such a narrow margin. Error rates in the recount will probably not be much less than error rates in the actual election.
As an independent voter, I try to step back and watch the political parties' acts in a detached way. The Republicans are frequently stupid and clueless, but the Democrats make my skin crawl.
Interesting rumor from Gateway Pundit:
Local precinct officials have reportedly found 500 votes in Waukesha County Wisconsin. Officials believe they have found 500 ballots in a county that voted 73% for Prosser.
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/2011/04/report-500-votes-found-in-waukesha-county-wisconsin/
Just curious, Ann, if you're fulminations over voter fraud will extend to this curious case of votes being found in a highly Republican county, or is it just fraud when Democrats mysteriously find votes?
The Election is too close to call w/o a thorough check.
Of course if it had gone the other way, I would be saying the opposite.
I'm a partisan hack.. leave me alone ;)
Would it be too much to ask to see 740,090 birth certificates?
The desperate dems will do anything to regain power. Add that to the allegations of ballot destruction. An investigation should take place. Hard to do in a climate where democrats say "how dare you" at every turn. I don't trust the dems and they certainly have a reputation for fraud in WI.
plus: via Christian Schneider at The Corner:
"Yet without the electoral bloodbath in Dane County, Prosser would have won Wisconsin by a comfortable 53.3 percent to 46.7 percent margin. The non-Dane County Prosser vote actually exceeds the 52.3 percent Walker received statewide in November. It wasn’t the state’s voters rejecting Walker’s agenda — it was Dane County’s government workers attempting to keep their paychecks intact."
"I've spent the last 2 months in a vortex of political ugliness,..."
Then you've just started paying attention,...
I've said this several times before. I'm black and I live in Racine; that gives me access to see things that most other Wisconsin residents can't or don't see.
I've personally witnessed voter fraud...I've seen people given names of registered voters who hadn't voted and use those names to cast ballots. To say that fraud doesn't occur, especially in Milwaukee and certainly in Racine, is absurd.
but this is due to human error
Agreed.
I will attribute nearly all irregularities to human poll workers doing the best they can do. I accept that a perfect system is not feasible. In this context, nearly any outcome is the correct one, given the system we have.
Would it be too much to ask to see 740,090 birth certificates?
It would have been nice to see 740,090 IDs at the polls. However, I expect voters would never have been able to produce that many.
10,000 red flags are waving:
"On an estimated more than 10,000 ballots in Dane County, Wisconsin, where the state capital Madison is, voters selected only a pick in the Supreme Court race, while leaving even the hotly contested mayoral and county executive choices blank. That raises red flags for election experts..."
More
Would it be too much to ask to see 740,090 birth certificates?
Well.. yes.. when asking to see one is an apparent insurmountable difficulty.
Of course there is fraud. On both sides. The difference is it's not an unusual thing for the Dems. It's the norm.
The church of the leftists want to prosecute inquisition on Saturday and peace and tranquility in the church on Sunday.
It doesn't work that way. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Or as Jesus said, "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword"
Or didn't any of the leftists bother to read and take at all seriously the most influential book in the past 2000 years?
(Yeah, I know. They've all read their Noam Chomsky, but haven't bothered to even peruse the New Testament once - probably because the Koch brothers are rumored to have written it.)
Voter fraud in Wisconsin? It's laughable to suggest it doesn't occur. No serious person doubts that it has. The 2004 presidential election had a ton of it. The only reason it wasn't investigated was because Kerry's win here didn't matter.
Finding any actual fraud is important but what seems clear in many close elections is that the voting systems are so inefficient and poorly designed and run, that suspicions are very natural.
Perhaps its attractive to attribute results to fraud when its known to happen but its also easy to explain "unusual" events by invoking very likely causes: less than proficient workers, varied and unreliable technologies and irregular requirements for voting. What could go wrong?
That raises red flags for election experts..."
Foxnews.com and Scott St. Clair of the Freedom Foundation, a conservative think tank are "election experts"?
LOL
while leaving even the hotly contested mayoral and county executive choices blank.
The County Executive Race was not at all hotly contested. Parisi won with -- what -- 70+% of the vote?
I don't even think the Mayoral race -- which was not voted on by well over half of Dane County -- was hotly contested. The choices left me pretty ambivalent, so much so that I didn't bother to get a new ballot when I mistakenly voted for the old incumbent vs. the new one.
A lot of these allegations of irregularities on Tuesday strike me as throwing things against the wall to see if they will stick.
Moreover, I read that there nearly 1800 municipal election employyes who count and manage the election process. How many of these clerks are part of the government unions. Do they have a direct personal stake in the election? How many of them were protesting at the capitol or in their home towns against the union bill.
Even if 99.9% of the clerks are legit, that still leaves a few corrupt ones to decided the election.
This is going to get very ugly.
Also the whole Suprement Court is tainted on this. How can they make a ruling on the recount that people would accept. They should appoint a commission to decide it.
Apparently 50.1% of Wisconsinites have taken a vow of poverty:
Because I still don't understand why minimum wage workers in Wisconsin are so willing to sacrifice their own money to support union members who make nearly three times as much as they do.
I hear that spoken in an Allen Iverson voice. Fraud, wat we tawkin' 'bou', fraud?
"I don't even think the Mayoral race -- which was not voted on by well over half of Dane County -- was hotly contested. The choices left me pretty ambivalent, so much so that I didn't bother to get a new ballot when I mistakenly voted for the old incumbent vs. the new one."
Agreed. I have plenty of friends who said "I'm voting Soglin or I'm voting Dave, but either way it's fine" I felt that way, too.
"This is an effort to delegitimatize the very interest in the problem of fraud."
Now why would any honest person want to do that? It seems to me, he wants to hide something. Something embarrassing.
If the fraud suspectors are wrong that's good, and if they are right, it's still good that we found out.
The only bad outcome is if they are right and it stays hidden. Now who would want that?
SteveR said...
Finding any actual fraud is important but what seems clear in many close elections is that the voting systems are so inefficient and poorly designed and run, that suspicions are very natural.
Perhaps its attractive to attribute results to fraud when its known to happen but its also easy to explain "unusual" events by invoking very likely causes: less than proficient workers, varied and unreliable technologies and irregular requirements for voting. What could go wrong?
4/7/11 9:48 AM
Who are you going to believe, democrats or your lying eyes? See the comment above from James. Ocam's razor: fraud being a long standing tradition among democrats is always the most probable when democrats win by the margin of fraud.
This may be an ignorant question, but why doesn't the legislature take up this matter again and vote again after making maximum notifications?
Ocam's razor: fraud being a long standing tradition among democrats is always the most probable when democrats win by the margin of fraud.
You need to do more to educate us about all this rampant Democrat voting fraud. Never any links. Why is that? There should be mountains of evidence to support it. You have anything?
Perfectly consistent with the dishonesty that has characterized WI Dems all along.
There were no death threats, until we saw the death threats.
There were no swastikas, until we saw the swastikas.
There was no vandalism, until we saw the vandalism.
There will be no fraud, until we see the fraud.
And none of it makes a bit of difference to ideologues like Hasen.
He and his ilk will contnue to deflect, distract and distort all throughout the recount process. It's what they do.
Knowing how easy it is to vote fraudulently, how badly so many wanted to win this "at any cost", and how important is is; what does it say about someone who does not want to investigate even the possibility of fraud?
It seems this blog is becoming a vortex of hyper ventilation, but I wonder if the ads in this race, and the tone of the election were any worse than what Gableman, not a third party, ran against Butler? The court was in a 3/3 deadlock over his ethical violation. In Gableman's case his ad made false statement about guess what-- Butler's involvement in a sex offender case. This raw emotion has continued to affect all of our elections along with the exaggeration of voter fraud--
Do they have a direct personal stake in the election?
That's the thing I keep coming back to. Trust in the election process hinges on that process being administered by neutral parties - or at a very minimum, parties without a direct financial stake in the outcome.
Again, it's always one side trying to prevent measures which would make fraud more difficult. It's always one side taking allegations of fraud and calling those who point it out racist. It's the same, every time.
Wonder why...
Hey, Garage, don't complain. "I" calculated that 265,000 fraudulent votes were cast in Wisconsin - and so far the experts have only come up with 10,000.
I was blocked from sharing this post on Facebook just now.
God Althouse, you are such an insufferable ass. Meanwhile, what's Meade watching today? Oh my, Jessica Valenti?!?!
meadehouse.blogspot.com
"I" calculated that 265,000 fraudulent votes were cast in Wisconsin - and so far the experts have only come up with 10,000.
Yea? How did you come up with those numbers? You could make quite a name for yourself with this shocking revelation.
In the Minnesota Governor's race last year (about 1.9 million votes), the hand recount produced a net change of 100 votes. There were also a 1000 ballots challenged but a law suit was never filed because 1000 was not enough to oeverturn the election.
In the Franken/Colemen recount in 2008, the challenges resulted in almost 2000 additional votes and overturned the 200 vote lead Coleman had on election night into a 300 vote victory for Franken.
but why doesn't the legislature take up this matter again
Legal (judiciary) precedent. Giving legal merit where no legal merit is due. Separation of powers.
The thing about fraud is that it hinges on people believing what someone else said.
I'd never take a verbal answer as satisfaction to a good-faith question about fraud.
And any person that tries to give a verbal satisfaction is either a cheat or an idiot.
The voting regulations seem designed to facilitate fraud while putting up a veneer of protection. That needs changed. As a conservative, I never want to win an election via fraud, I'm not so sure my liberal friends feel the same. They do say stuff like "But I still think Obama is awesome." "By any means necessary." and a lot of "yea but". when confronted with an ideological obstacle.
The labels "liberal" and "conservative" do actually fit on the value of rules.
Ann Allthouse raised the spectre of fraud?
Ya, right how about actual fraud committed in Milwaukee in 2004.
John Fund Wall Street Journal:
Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle has vetoed three previous photo ID laws, even though Democrats such as state Sen. Tim Carpenter of Milwaukee supported them saying he's seen "eye opening" public support for the idea.
That backing is based on real evidence. In 2004, John Kerry won Wisconsin over George W. Bush by 11,380 votes out of 2.5 million cast. After allegations of fraud surfaced, the Milwaukee police department's Special Investigative Unit conducted a probe. Its February 2008 report found that from 4,600 to 5,300 more votes were counted in Milwaukee than the number of voters recorded as having cast ballots. Absentee ballots were cast by people living elsewhere; ineligible felons not only voted but worked at the polls; transient college students cast improper votes; and homeless voters possibly voted more than once.
Much of the problem resulted from Wisconsin's same-day voter law, which allows anyone to show up at the polls, register and then cast a ballot. ID requirements are minimal. The report found that in 2004 a total of 1,305 "same day" voters were invalid.
The report was largely ignored, and just before the 2008 election the police department's Special Investigative Unit was ordered by superiors not to send anyone to polling places on Election Day.
In January of this year,(2010) Assistant District Attorney Bruce Landgraf, the city prosecutor overseeing election issues, complained that the Milwaukee Police Department was stalling its investigation of voter fraud in the 2008 election. "Sadly, [the prosecution of] several probable cases of genuine voter fraud were harmed by that delay," he wrote in an email to a city elections official that was revealed by the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. A spokesman for the Police Department responded that "we have investigated every case that has been forwarded to us."
Wisconsin's bitter partisanship on election issues isn't found everywhere.
Wall Street Journal
There are actually Conservative bloggers blaming Republicans for letting this stand.
Let's see Doyle vetoed the voter ID bill they passed three times and the Milwaukee Police Department stalled-shocker.
And remember people-Ann Althouse raised the spectre of it all.
No one else is responsible.
How did you come up with those numbers?
Spread sheet crunching empirical/statistical data.
Likewise blocked from sharing this post on Facebook.
since no ID is required, there was no doubt at least a net 200 Felons or illegal aliens who voted for Democrats in the election. IN Minnesota it was found that 350 ineligible felons voted in the Franken Coleman election.
If you want examples of fraud by Democrats, Google ACORN. Lots there. ACORN and election fraud get 265,000 hits.
See "raising the specter of fraud" is actually the crime, not the actual fraud-that is swept under the rug.
Don't look!
Milwaukee has a problem with vote fraud!
Wisconsin is full of good people!
This is Wisconsin-we're nice..
Uh huh.
Voter fraud would be relatively easy to pull off. When I go to my polling place all I state is my name. The poll workers look up my name in their records, then read back my address to me. They never ask me to state my address first, and of course they aren't required to ask for identification.
While they are doing that the entire page of the voter list is visible and you can easily see who hasn't voted. Its simple to memorize a name or two from the list. Maybe in other parts of Wisconsin the process is more secure but I doubt it.
And although I live in Racine I get my haircuts at a barber shop in Kenosha. I happen to know at least two of the barbers live across the state line in Illinois but they vote in Wisconsin.
Since SEIU was in WI before the election, one might want to check for ballots attributed to Mickey Mouse and Dick Tracy.
Oh, I forgot; since there could actually be a dozen people in one district named Mickey Mouse and Dick Tracy, that doesn't necessarily constitute fraud.
Just like all those people who died in the Great Chicago Fire coming in for Jack Kennedy.
We don't do vote fraud-those other people do vote fraud.
Not Wisconsin!
How dare Althouse do whatever the hell we think she did, because there is no vote fraud!
Never has been!
Like nice folks don't discuss sex around innocent children, it is scandalous to even discuss ballot box stuffing around innocent voters. Unfortunately, both sex and ballot box stuffing are ancient and regularly practiced behaviors. Just don't tell anyone.
James, I hope you've contacted the Prosser campaign, and sympathetic media, with your eye-witness testimony. We need to expose all evidence of the fraud which almost certainly takes place in every WI election (same-day registration and lack of photo ID practically guarantees it will happen).
Voter fraud is a venerable, Democratic party tradition. They used to be laugh about it, but now that it's become politically incorrect, they try to pretend it doesn't exist....like every other politically incorrect idea or fact.
Damn it typo in my first post-
*specter*
******
So now two commenters here have been blocked from even sharing this post on-
Facebook.
That's just special.
Hey, Garage - And what about the question of human nature? Why have so many Wisconsinites taken a vow of poverty? I mean, why would even one minimum wage worker give over a portion of his or her minimum-wage paycheck to a union teacher already raking in $100,000 a year?
If you want examples of fraud by Democrats, Google ACORN. Lots there. ACORN and election fraud get 265,000 hits.
A search engine isn't proof of fraud. Need concrete examples. I'll go first, complete with mug shot! --
NEWLY ELECTED INDIANA GOP SECRETARY OF STATE – CHARLIE WHITE – CHARGED WITH VOTING FRAUD
The state’s top election official will face seven felony counts, including voter fraud, perjury and theft, a special prosecutor said today.
Secretary of State Charlie White was accused of intentionally voting in the wrong precinct during the May 2010 primary, a potential felony.
White turned himself in at the Hamilton County Jail Thursday afternoon and was released after posting $10,000 bond.
My father was defrauded in the 1960 election. He lived in Chicago and the fraud worked like this. When he showed up at the polls, the workers asked that he produce the registration card that had been sent to them several weeks before. In prior elections you did not have to show the registration card. The fraud was that registration cards were not actually sent to most men in precincts that favored Nixon (like my father). My mother, who also lived in Chicago did receive a registration card. Because of that he was not allowed to vote. That is how the Democrats stole the 1960 election.
LarryK, to be clear I was talking more about the 2008 elections...I really didn't see anything untoward on Tuesday.
Well actually the 16 Kerry workers were never sent to jail because Milwaukee's election records are kept so poorly.
More from WSJ:
According to the report, this loophole was abused by many out-of-state workers for the John Kerry campaign. They had "other staff members who were registered voters vouch for them by corroborating their residency."
The investigative unit believed that at least 16 workers from the Kerry campaign, and two allied get-out-the-vote groups, "committed felony crimes." But local prosecutors didn't pursue them in part because of a "lack of confidence" in the abysmal record-keeping of the city's Election Commission.
WSJ.com
Smart rebuttal to Hasen's obvious bullshit.
I say drag out the ugly. This is what democracy looks like. It's ugly.
@cubanbob
I was being charitable, at best. Being a republican in a democratic state, fraud in these types of circumstances is low hanging fruit. Being a government employee, however, I can't dismiss the utter imcompetence of the system. I've seen way too many really simple things get fucked up to think gathering millions of votes from thousands of precints won't have problems.
If any democrat ever wins you know it is likely fraud. That's just the way it works. We play by the rules and they don't.
Hey, Garage - And what about the question of human nature? Why have so many Wisconsinites taken a vow of poverty? I mean, why would even one minimum wage worker give over a portion of his or her minimum-wage paycheck to a union teacher already raking in $100,000 a year?
You're missing the point.
Garbage is one of the tax eaters. He wants... he gets. Scam artist mentality.
The rest of Wisconsin... they can go fuck themselves.
The important thing is... garbage gets.
All right, folks. Time to find out if Foghorn Leghorn and Yosemite Sam voted for Klop.
Cause you know they did.
"Great Horny Toads!"
You need to do more to educate us about all this rampant Democrat voting fraud. Never any links. Why is that? There should be mountains of evidence to support it. You have anything?
Here
you
go
OK?
And who is it that is consistently against voter ID laws? Why, it's those who know they would profit from voters not having to show ID to vote. Sooooo, you just have to check who is against voter ID laws and you will have a handy dandy guide to cui bono
You know what? I'm glad Kloppenburg is ahead right now. If she wasn't, I wouldn't get to see the absurd hysterics by Althouse and her moronic commenters. You people are fucking lunatics, all of you.
If the GOP doesn't win, it must be FRAUD! Hilarious.
You don't have to look hard to find voter fraud in Wisconsin.
Wisconsin Democrat convicted of voter fraud.
Antia, care to link us to a reputable source? Blogs and Michelle Malkin don't carry much weight.
Where's Edumbass and his "SHREDDED BALLOTS!" claims? Oh wait, that was debunked. Silly, stupid Republicans.
If the GOP doesn't win, it must be FRAUD! Hilarious.
This judicial election has been all about the Madison Dems refusing to accept the gubernatorial and assembly elections in 2010.
You refused to abide by election results.
So, go fuck yourself. It's war. No quarter given.
"While they are doing that the entire page of the voter list is visible and you can easily see who hasn't voted. Its simple to memorize a name or two from the list. Maybe in other parts of Wisconsin the process is more secure but I doubt it."
When I worked at the polling place, I would hold my hand over the address book so people couldn't look. The person in charge told me to quit doing that.
"Need concrete examples. I'll go first, complete with mug shot! --"
So are you against voter fraud and do you want it investigated, prosecuted, and prevented, or does it depend on who did it? Cause we may have some common ground here.
Ren, would a guilty plea satisfy you as evidence of voter fraud?
Surely you learned about guilty pleas while you were absorbing the anti-Prosser talking points.
Shouting Moron,
You don't live in Wisconsin. This election doesn't even pertain to you. Democrats can run whatever campaign they want--it's not like spending in this election was much more than the last one for the WI, which was also heated.
Oh, and fuck me? Fine, fuck your wife. Prick.
DFTT
Oh, and fuck me? Fine, fuck your wife. Prick.
Like I said, when Madison Dems declared that they refuse to abide by election results, this became a total war.
You deserve it. Hope you enjoy the bloodshed. It's not over by a long shot.
I hope the Republicans now refuse to abide by the results of this judicial election. Mob scenes. Harassment of candidates. Angry gathers at candidate's houses. Let's go. All tactics are now in play.
You brought this on yourself, asshole.
Shut Er Down!
I would suggest that conservatives also start looking for a sympathetic judge in Waukesha or Ozaukee County. If any irregularities are found, this thing could be tied up in the courts for months.
It's time to start playing by the same rules as our opponents.
"fuck your wife. Prick.
That is cruelest insult possible to a married man. How dare you, sir? Is there no compassion anymore?
Don't talk about fraud! Fraud?! There is no fraud! Everybody knows there is no fraud, and anybody who mentions it is, by that mere mention, an agent of discord and deceit.
Gambling at Rick's in Cassablanca? No way!.....Shocked...Shocked.
Nothing to see here...move along.
Of course there is fraud. Our elections are based on the honor system, where we:
don't confirm identity when voting or even when registering to vote
allow people to register multiple times at the last minute
have paid operatives bribing people to register and paying them to register fake names,
allow absentee ballots to be counted without verification
never remove the dead from the voting rolls so that people can vote for Zombies
allow illegal aliens and foreign nationals to vote
canvase the Alzheimer wards and vote for the elderly without their knowledge.
I could go on and on.
Of course there is fraud and 95% of it is done by Democrats, Acorn and Move On operatives.
Finding magical, mysterious piles of uncounted votes in trunks of cars and under stairwells always count for ...guess who!! (not Republicans)
LOL!!!!!!!
Verification word: VOTID
Fraud? To prevent an effortlessly lucrative money laundering scheme from coming to an end? You've got to be kidding.
The important thing is... garbage gets.
I'm not asking for anything. Actually I'm willing to pay more. If we're truly in a crisis in this state, everyone should pitch in.
If everyone in Wisc chipped in just a little bit, the budget "crisis" would go away. We're talking like $32. Problem solved.
Almost Ali said...
"…I still don't understand why minimum wage workers in Wisconsin are so willing to sacrifice their own money to support union members who make nearly three times as much as they do."
Well that's the more relevant issue, isn't it? Not the so-far unfounded speculation about fraud.
The public unions and their misguided supporters seem to have a sense that their position, at least on the face of it, is unfair. So, they've tried to cloak it as a civil rights issue. That so many voters seem to have bought that conceit is astonishing.
Ren
I'm sure you didn't mind Gore accusing every military absentee voter in Florida of vote fraud.
Or challenging every one of their ballots-
That was A hunky dory.
And btw-an absentee ballot envelop is actually signed by the voter and can be matched up wit the voter rolls.
And in Okaloosa there were not any mysterious "overcounts"-but challenge them they did.
The Democrats challenged each and every ballot at the county level and then they actually went to Court in Pensacola to keep challenging the military vote.
That's what your party the Democrats did.
And none of you had a problem with it-except Joe Lieberman.
He's an Independent now and you all loathe him.
You can't take 1/100th of what was done to the military who were serving their country overseas.
The public unions and their misguided supporters seem to have a sense that their position, at least on the face of it, is unfair. So, they've tried to cloak it as a civil rights issue. That so many voters seem to have bought that conceit is astonishing.
A lot of us are failing to do our math. Public employee are, what, 20% of WI workers? I'm just guessing. And how many have spouses? Subtract that from the Dem vote total. That doesn't leave a whole lot of non-public employees voting in favor of the Dems.
Madison Dems are voting themselves money from the public pocketbook at the expense of the non-public employees. They feel entitled.
Check every county carefully. While Dane and Milwaukee Counties are suspicious, I want to know what the problem was in Wausau, in Marathon County. At 12:14 A.M. on Wednesday their unofficial web published results showed 32 precincts still uncounted, all in the City of Wausau. Prosser's margin of victory in the county was smaller once those precincts were counted. What took so long? You bet fraud. And the Conservatives need to get their act in gear to prevent the same voter fraud on the Senatorial Recall Elections.
This is what democracy looks like.
garage
We're talking like $32. Problem solved.
How did you come up with this figure?
SteveR said...
@cubanbob
I was being charitable, at best. Being a republican in a democratic state, fraud in these types of circumstances is low hanging fruit. Being a government employee, however, I can't dismiss the utter imcompetence of the system. I've seen way too many really simple things get fucked up to think gathering millions of votes from thousands of precints won't have problems.
4/7/11 10:35 AM
Point well taken. I am of the belief that this constant level of fraud and perception of electoral fraud is a serious cancer for our democracy and that election fraud needs to be taken seriously and investigated and prosecuted seriously and punished very harshly as an example to all. That said I think if the mechanics of voting were farmed out to the credit card companies and one could cast their ballot at an ATM site anywhere within the designated time window a substantial amount of the fraud both real and perceived would be eliminated. The companies have a pretty good system in place as it is (after all the machine is handing out money, your money and they have a liability) it would not be to difficult to chose cast my vote as an option. The audit trail would be far better and being electronic the data would only be transmitted back for tallying after the polls closed so no one could ever know how many votes are needed if a fix was to be attempted and any effort to do so would be rather obvious. It it also has the added advantage that military votes will be counted as it would not be to onerous to have machines not to far from the troops or aboard the larger warships.
But there's a 204 vote margin in this crazy election. We need to feel confident that the outcome is correct.
No we don't. As Chomsky said of the 2000 election:
Given a statistical tie with numerical differences that fall well within the expected 1-2 percent margin of error, the rational procedure would be to select a candidate at random; say, by flipping a coin. That would not do, however. The process must be conducted with appropriate solemnity, and a pretense that issues of grand significance are at stake.
garage
And for how long would it solve the problem?
How would everyone paying $32 ( assuming that's even correct) encourage business to come back to Wisconsin-
what's your plan to do that?
shoutingthomas said...
"A lot of us are failing to do our math."
Fair enough.
How about...
That even *one* voter bought that conceit is astonishing.
Is this a professor- a professor who wants Academic Freedom! to pursue all manner of dangerous thoughts without repercussions - asking others to not even think this thought?
Is this a professor, who must have privacy in all of his professional communication so he can engage freely in his intellectual pursuits, telling others not to entertain such ideas? Not to talk about it? Because he, protector of intellectual and academic freedom, sees no purchase in it.
AGAIN-
And, I'll beat on this point like a protester's drum in the Rotundra...
The simple fact that after the entire State reported election results, and handful of precincts held out reporting their results-
curious....
Their eventual reporting put the candidate that was behind--ahead.
suspicious....
That is not partisan. That is HUMAN NATURE. And, rightfully so.
To say there is no reason to question the election results is beyond dishonest.
If everyone in Wisc chipped in just a little bit, the budget "crisis" would go away.
LOL, because we all know that Wisconsin's budget problems are caused by taxpayers not "chipping" in enough. Just a little bit more and our problems are solved!
Brilliant!
What would Al Gore do?
What would Al Gore do?
Probably offer you free cigarettes for your vote.
One last point:
Wisconsin's voting laws does not allow for voter fraud.
It encourages it.
Damn it Bushman!
I was trying to set him up...
oy.
See garage's everyone pay $32 and it's all solved brings up that Irish proverb that Althouse posted the other day-
"The hole is more honorable than the patch."
At least the Republicans admit there's a hole-the deficit and budget shortfalls, which will probably grow larger.
garage can fix it all with the temporary patch.
Move along folks nothing to see here.
Pass it to that next bunch of bastards -
"the children."
Don't confuse them with the Green energy policies that is suppose to be "for the children" though-because they're going to stomp off the thread with a tirade of swear words, or somethin'.
it's "of course, there's fraud." it's a close election. wondering how many criminals voted, how many dead people voted, how many unregistered people voted, how many illegals voted, how many out-of-staters, multiple voters and how many non-existent voters voted... It's quite normal to want to strike these ballots...unless you benefit from their existence, which case, you claim there is no fraud.
Sorry madawaskan ;)
If it's any consolation, your reply was much more eloquent than mine.
Ya I'm off (-for now) but let me leave you with this parting thought.
Koppenburg when you push it through the googles translator means-
Spanked by Spaetzle.
which can be translated to-
PWNED by Noodles.
Ya Noodles won.
Gawd.
No worries Bushman-yours was funnier.
I was only joking. :-).
Does anyone remember Noodles?
I'm off for awhile.
Catch you later garage. And look at this way-in the mean time you can come up with-
Plan B.
How would everyone paying $32 ( assuming that's even correct) encourage business to come back to Wisconsin-
If anything, businesses are leaving Wisconsin after Scott Walker was elected governor.
A good place to start looking for fraud would be Ward 0122 in Dane County.
Total ballots 706
Total votes county executive race 363
Total votes for mayor race 444
Total votes for Supreme Court 676
Why are there so ballots with only votes for the Supreme Court from one of the smaller wards?
Source:
http://www.countyofdane.com/clerk/elect2011b.html
This is the namby-pamby liberal fantasy: there are all these "poor people" who really, in their hearts, want to be involved in our political process but--urgh!! figuring out how to get registered is so so complicated!! But we really should *want* them to get involved--even an evil Koch Brother MUST agree that the Founding Fathers wished even the most diffident, lazy, unengaged citizens to go to that poll and show the democracy they mean business (power to the people!), therefore we MUST make it as easy as possible for them to vote!
So make 'getting to vote' so easy, even a driveby dummy can do it! I mean, I bet these people have been eagerly following the public debates in any given election: it's just that, you know, that registration thingie, that was really hard to find out about, so complicated, yadda yadda; but if I could just go in to the polling place on Election Day and they'd just set it up nice for me so I could participate in the political process then I'd have a goofy smile on my face all year and people could just look at me and tell, "Gosh, isn't this a great country or what?!"
I mean, even if I've been dead for thirty years. Powezr to the zombies!!
wv: reppu Reputations are on the line
Garage: I am sure you are right. More businesses will migrate to Wisconsin when they are convinced that Wisconsin has strong unions, higher taxes and a government that is large enough to imagine and enforce regulations that the government thinks should be in place. Those are the very things they are waiting for and I am sure that the triumph in the election of Tuesday has the strategic planning departments of many companies plotting a move to Wisconsin. Car companies in particular will be eager to move from the warm and low tax south to Wisconsin so that they can be nearer to the high quality worker who displays such a strong work ethic and whose originality in puppet making and sign design is apparent.
Sore Loserhouse.
There once was a shepherd boy who was bored as he sat on the hillside watching the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a great breath and sang out, "Wolf! Wolf! The Wolf is chasing the sheep!"
The villagers came running up the hill to help the boy drive the wolf away. But when they arrived at the top of the hill, they found no wolf. The boy laughed at the sight of their angry faces.
"Don't cry 'wolf', shepherd boy," said the villagers, "when there's no wolf!" They went grumbling back down the hill.
Later, the boy sang out again, "Wolf! Wolf! The wolf is chasing the sheep!" To his naughty delight, he watched the villagers run up the hill to help him drive the wolf away.
When the villagers saw no wolf they sternly said, "Save your frightened song for when there is really something wrong! Don't cry 'wolf' when there is NO wolf!"
But the boy just grinned and watched them go grumbling down the hill once more.
Later, he saw a REAL wolf prowling about his flock. Alarmed, he leaped to his feet and sang out as loudly as he could, "Wolf! Wolf!"
But the villagers thought he was trying to fool them again, and so they didn't come.
At sunset, everyone wondered why the shepherd boy hadn't returned to the village with their sheep. They went up the hill to find the boy. They found him weeping.
"There really was a wolf here! The flock has scattered! I cried out, "Wolf!" Why didn't you come?"
An old man tried to comfort the boy as they walked back to the village.
"We'll help you look for the lost sheep in the morning," he said, putting his arm around the youth, "Nobody believes a liar...even when he is telling the truth!"
plus: via Christian Schneider at The Corner:
"Yet without the electoral bloodbath in Dane County, Prosser would have won Wisconsin by a comfortable 53.3 percent to 46.7 percent margin. The non-Dane County Prosser vote actually exceeds the 52.3 percent Walker received statewide in November. It wasn’t the state’s voters rejecting Walker’s agenda — it was Dane County’s government workers attempting to keep their paychecks intact."
And without the suburban zombies of Waukesha, Ozaukee, and Washington counties, Kloppenburg would've won much bigger than she did. So, what your point again?
Professors profess to love curiosity, but not the wrong kind of curiosity. That's what Academic Freedom! is all about.
LOL, because we all know that Wisconsin's budget problems are caused by taxpayers not "chipping" in enough. Just a little bit more and our problems are solved!
Actually, that is correct. My Plan, gets rid of the 137 million. Walker's does not.
Interesting rumor from Gateway Pundit:
Local precinct officials have reportedly found 500 votes in Waukesha County Wisconsin. Officials believe they have found 500 ballots in a county that voted 73% for Prosser.
Wingnut website says it has 500 votes! Gateway Pundit channels Tailgunner Joe!
"On an estimated more than 10,000 ballots in Dane County, Wisconsin, where the state capital Madison is, voters selected only a pick in the Supreme Court race, while leaving even the hotly contested mayoral and county executive choices blank. That raises red flags for election experts..."
Wingnut "news" operation quotes wingnut website quoting wingnut leader of wingnut group saying that wingnut candidate actually won. Yup, it must be true!
Start with out-of-state UW students. Cross-reference their Madison voter registration with that of their hometown.
Move on to in-state UW students. Cross-reference their Madison voter registration with that of their hometown.
My guess is that there are far more than 204 left-leaning voters who will be caught doing the double-dip.
How about all those housewives on drugs in Waukesha County who cast one vote for each of their personalities?
Shorter Placeholder: Don't talk about fraud! Fraud?! There is no fraud! Pay no attention to those... those... those... frauders!
Its only fraud if it is done by Republicans. If the Democrat wins then it is a victory for the masses by ensuring groups traditionally under-represented are better captured. Like the dead, cartoon characters, and imaginary friends...
LOL... I like the assertion that Prosser should just relax because he might lose due to "human error" in counting votes rather than outright fraud.
I'm always sort of perplexed by close elections anyway. I think they ought to have the same rules we have when playing basketball in the driveway. As a kid, we'd play to 24 but we had to win by at 4.
Why not require a run-off election if the victor doesn't win by a margin that actually proves he won. This could take a variety of forms to ensure a decisive outcome in the run off.
On Fox News:
John Fund just reported that there are more than 200,000 voters still on the rolls who have moved or died but not removed. The state was supposed to have cleared these earlier but hasn't done so. That, along with the law allowing voters to register at the polls with no more proof than another person to vouch for them. Many of such registrations have been found to have false addresses.
Wisconsin has a record of voting fraud.
Why not require a run-off election if the victor doesn't win by a margin that actually proves he won. This could take a variety of forms to ensure a decisive outcome in the run off.
Just imagine what the wingnuts would've said if that had been done in, say, the 2000 presidential election.
John Fund just reported that there are more than 200,000 voters still on the rolls who have moved or died but not removed.
Quick! Someone check Waukesha, Washington, Ozaukee, Racine, and Shebioygan counties! Lots of dead people there!
"Why are there so [many] ballots with only votes for the Supreme Court from one of the smaller wards?"
Is this a student area of town?
It's quite possible that a lot of people got excited about the thing that was being talked about and didn't have an opinion on anything else.
It was hard to form an opinion between the 2 mayoral candidates for example, but the SCt race was crisply ideological.
It was hard to form an opinion between the 2 mayoral candidates for example, but the SCt race was crisply ideological.
I did a double take when reading about the Madison mayor's race. Paul Soglin? He was the mayor when I was a student in the 1970s. Are the kids listening to a lot of Led Zeppelin these days, too?
TMP said;
There is probably no way of knowing who is the "real" winner with such a narrow margin. Error rates in the recount will probably not be much less than error rates in the actual election.
Bingo. Flip a coin; quicker and cheaper.
James,
Did you mess that weasel word "systemic"? Unless someone finds the headquarters of Vote Fraud Central, Inc., then it doesn't exist. :-(
"We need to feel confident that the outcome is correct."
The outcome is correct. The right team won.
Oh, they'll be talking about "fraud." Just look at Prosser. Within 12 hours of losing, he was out begging for money. Even though the state will pay for the recount, he needs some more millions to hire a squad of Republican lawyers to make up some more crap.
The outcome is correct. The right team won.
Mildly surprised you feel that way. But not really at the same time.
Is this a student area of town?
This ward is in the 8th District. The number of extra votes really stands out because it is over 40% of the total.
The 8th District itself had about 8% of the total extra votes, which seems high because the 8th District was less than 2% of the total votes cast.
Of course it could be a student area, but it might be something to take a closer look at.
"On an estimated more than 10,000 ballots in Dane County, Wisconsin, where the state capital Madison is, voters selected only a pick in the Supreme Court race, while leaving even the hotly contested mayoral and county executive choices blank. That raises red flags for election experts..."
This argument annoys the hell out of me. I vote in every election. And in every electron I leave more races blank than I vote in. If I don't know anything about that race, I don't vote in it.
The Democrats tried this bullshit in Florida. They actually wanted Gore votes on ballots that had votes for Democrats, but had left Gore blank.
I'll entertain a thoughtful argument that this pattern indicates reasons to look further, but that's as far as I'll go.
It was sarcasm, garage.
Figures.
Sorry to disappoint. But keep working on me. You never know.
You [I think] are directly effected, I'm not. I thought maybe witnessing the sleight of hand, the lying, and ridiculous pettiness of it all may have changed your perspective on at least the S.C. race.
Then again, it's none of my business either.
I'm very affected. But I don't vote on direct personal interest. Or, rather, I think what's best for society is best for me, in the long run. I believe this strongly.
The current budget is a perfect example. We got to this mess by previous administrations overspending, over promising, and kicking the can down the road rather than living within our means. 80% of something is way better than nothing. But if the fiscal mess of the governments, State and Federal, is not cleaned up, nothing is what we are going to have.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the fact that with the doctor's fake medical excuses, the unions have shown they're willing to commit fraud for the cause.
There once was a shepherd boy who was bored as he sat on the hillside watching the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a great breath and sang out, "Wolf! Wolf! The Wolf is chasing the sheep!"
Here's the real story.
@O.M.
Walker's budget will actually spend more, not less. So basically you are getting blamed, and fucked, and not getting what you voted for in the first place.
Garage is still around? Wasn't he one of the thugs cheering the threats against Ann and Meade?
Garage is still around? Wasn't he one of the thugs cheering the threats against Ann and Meade?
Yea. And I still post here everyday. Dumb fuck.
Vote counting is so difficult
and imprecise. Right;
If your bank account dropped $204
-unexpectedly- I know precisely
what you would say to your banker.
They seem to have found 244 Posser votes, so he is now ahead by 40 votes.
I hope those radical extreme partisan Democrats don't start screaming fraud now.
Oops, 'mess' should obviously be 'miss': did you miss the weasel word...
They seem to have found 244 Posser votes, so he is now ahead by 40 votes.
I think a more accurate statement would be that the official count changed for reasons that haven't been stated.
Other than Winnebago Co changed their totals yesterday afternoon.
Hasen quotes Media Matters on his blog in support of the position in his column.
That should rest your case, Professor. He's just another lefty prof doin' what lefty prof's do.
I don't know about Wisconsin, but cries of fraud usually get Republican legislatures to talk about a photo ID requirement, which Democrats seem to hate. That alone should keep them quiet.
Neo,
actually the liberals were screaming fraud long before the election ... they always do to set up a meme for later challenges ...
Just imagine what the wingnuts would've said if that had been done in, say, the 2000 presidential election.
Is this going to be permanent moonbat fodder?
The Supreme Court decides it, a media coalition spends $3mil on a flurry of recounts, Bush wins on both scores and the bats still whine about it.
Professor Hasen taught my Remedies course at Loyola. He was blogging about Election law around then already, if not soon after. He always seemed to me like a reasonable man. But refusing to entertain any possibility of fraud under these circumstances just because its occurrence was debunked once before is anything but reasonable...
Check the jsonline ---
Winnebago county found a bunch of prosser votes and he now leads!
This is better than a circus. Tim W.
BC-
Good point about the fraudulent Doctor's notes. I'd almost forgotten about that little episode.
I see that the wingnut is leading now. I guess we can all rest easy about "fraud," right?
Haha. Are these the ballots in a trunk Pogo and others were predicting all along?
Good point about the fraudulent Doctor's notes. I'd almost forgotten about that little episode.
Not accepted by MMSD.
Cool, Prosser can claim victory now.
"...it could undermine public confidence in both the judiciary and Wisconsin’s electoral process..."
My guess is that's already happened.
MadisonMan
They've been stated.
The AP misreported the numbers.
*******
The latest vote count in the state Supreme Court race in Winnebago County indicates incumbent David Prosser is leading Assistant Attorney General JoAnne Kloppenburg in votes.
A tally compiled by The Associated Press Wednesday and used by news organizations statewide, including the Journal Sentinel, indicated Kloppenburg was leading the race by 204 votes. Figures on Winnebago County's website are now different from those collected by the AP.
Winnebago County's numbers say Prosser received 20,701 votes to Kloppenburg's 18,887. The AP has 19,991 for Prosser to Kloppenburg's 18,421.
The new numbers would give Prosser 244 more votes, or a 40-vote lead statewide.
An editor at the AP said the news service became aware of the discrepancy in the past hour. The AP last checked figures with Winnebago County at 10:14 a.m. Wednesday, according to the AP. The county adjusted its figures at 2:27 p.m
jsonline.com
Ya garage and placeholder the AP didn't report the numbers correctly.
Sorry to burst you tiny bubbles.
I'm fine with it. Whatever the result is, will be the result. I'm not the one whining about "fraud" here.
New Berlin reporting 200 more votes for Prosser.
placeholder
No worse you were whining about a simple recount and then you were inferring that the Republicans committed fraud when the vote change due to
AP err.
Ya garage and placeholder the AP didn't report the numbers correctly.
Ahh....
Any readers ever hear of the infamous "Box 13" with signatures of dead voters that won the 1948 election for U.S. Senate for Lyndon Johnson? And there's no vote fraud?
"Walker's budget will actually spend more, not less. So basically you are getting blamed, and fucked, and not getting what you voted for in the first place."
Are you talking about the rump budget? (From here to June 30th?) I'm not that interested in that. If you're talking about the next bienium, I'm interested. Please provide me links.
On the topic of the state picking up the "employee's" portion of pension cost, that's an unwinnable battle. Sure, it may be, as is claimed, that at some point in the past wages were traded away for the benefit, but if so that was a poor choice because it's unsustainable. It's called the employee's portion, for Christ sake. The name dooms it from the get go. Most people's analysis will not proceed past that point.
I don't believe in tilting at windmills.
No worse you were whining about a simple recount and then you were inferring that the Republicans committed fraud when the vote change due to AP err.
Wow, you just lie effortlessly, don't you? I'm not against a recount. I do wonder why the wingnut is out begging for money when the state will pay for it.
And my comment didn't "infer" Republican fraud. It "inferred" that if Prosser comes out ahead in this round, you wingnuts will stop talking about "fraud."
50.1% of Wisconsinites have obviously taken a vow of poverty.
I asked this question earlier today, but there's still no answer:
Why are minimum wage workers in Wisconsin so willing to sacrifice their own hard-earned dollars to support union members who make nearly three times as much as they do and take three month vacations?
Placeholder,
I imagine the "winning" side would always be unhappy about the prospect of a decisive run-off, but that's not a reasonable argument against it.
"Would it be too much to ask to see 740,090 birth certificates?"
I don't often say this about garage, but that was funny.
Brookfield wasn't counted - Prosser net 7k votes.
wv: emict
May I take this opportunity of emphasizing that there is no fraud in the Wisconsin election. Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there is a certain amount, more than we will ever admit. But all election officials are warned that if they wake up in the morning and find any boxes of votes at all anywhere in their home, they're to tell me immediately so that I can immediately take every measure to hush the whole thing up. And, finally, a non-partisan judiciary is right out.
Monty Python is eternal.
I wonder who advised Kloppie to declare victory. That was kind of dumb.
Hasen can be a smart guy, but he can also be a hack. Its a shame he can't seem to resist it at times.
It looks like the Rethuglicans are learning. Wait until the Demonrats get through finding ballots, then turn in the accidentally withheld ballots from heavily Rethuglican districts.
When we get to the point people do not believe in the honesty of elections, then the rule of law will give way to anarchy and then to tyranny.
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