Althouse: "The absurdity of the Democrats’ outrage was too much.... They were accusing Republicans of 'making a mockery of democracy,' operating like a 'banana republic,' and..."

March 13, 2011

"The absurdity of the Democrats’ outrage was too much.... They were accusing Republicans of 'making a mockery of democracy,' operating like a 'banana republic,' and..."

"... in former labor secretary Robert Reich’s words, conducting a 'coup d’état.' All the while, Democrats were hiding in another state trying to prevent a newly inaugurated senate from holding a vote on vital state business. But in the end, senate Republicans had found a way to vote. The Assembly passed the bill on Thursday. Scott Walker signed it into law on Friday. And that is what democracy actually looks like."

306 comments:

«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 306 of 306

Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Ritmo is part of that strategy.

Yes, that's it!1! My thoughts and feelings are just part of a strategy! Nothing personal about it at all, I am nothing but a meager footsoldier in the left-wing clone war. I think and feel what my superiors order me to think and feel.

/end satire.

Think for yourselves, much? Y

ou don't know how much you're admitting about your own lack of independence with what you accuse me of.; 3/13/11, 12:16 PM
Tom Spaulding said...: BTW--When you use one of Glenn's Amazon links, you increase the price everything you buy at Amazon.

Amazon's cost of giving Glenn 8% of your money gets added to Amazon's prices and cost of business.

Notice that he never tells you that?

I noticed that giving more than 8% to some fat-ass union guy's pension raises taxes and the cost of running the government.

What I also noticed was you getting your ass kicked on the merits of your argument, running away from us "fools" then you returning to bitch to us "fools" about Glenn Reynolds.

Fool.

wv: raffla....riffla; 3/13/11, 12:18 PM
Anonymous said...: But, I've got to give up now on Ritmo.

You can see that he has achieved his goal.

This is now all about Ritmo. That's what he wants.

Sorry, Ritmo, I won't give you any more. I'll await another thread.

At least, for the moment, you wait until the bottom of threads to do this strange look at me, look at me! bit.

You must be very lonely. I don't mean to be sarcastic. I mean that sincerely. Go out and learn how to actually connect with people, Ritmo. This isn't doing you any good.; 3/13/11, 12:18 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: He's just told me that the murder of millions of Jews in Tel Aviv in the event of an Arab attack shouldn't have any effect on me unless I'm Jewish or a neo-con.

Or a humanitarian. I allowed for that.

But what have you ever said that was supposed to give me the indication that you identify with being a humanitarian, Thomas? Your kind treatment of others? Have you ever treated anyone else in a sustained, kind way? Ever? In your life? Your acute sense of concern for people other than yourself? Don't make me laugh.; 3/13/11, 12:18 PM
Christopher in MA said...: "What bet?"

Sigh. OK, garage, I'll go through it again. I don't know how to make links, but I'll walk you through the timeline.

At 1.08 in the 3/11 post titled "Somebody ought to use that image of the handcuffs on the door. . ." you screeched, "there is no doubt shitbag will be recalled."

At 1.10, Trooper thought it was a sucker bet. At 1.16, you replied "You mean, fuck, I hope he ain't right."

And at 1.24, I bet you $100 dollars that Walker would be reelected. No answer from you. But I'm a generous guy. I'll make it easy. 100 bucks says Walker won't be recalled. Hell, I'll even send a crisp Franklin to Althouse and Meade to hold in trust. Whaddaya say, sport? Put your money where your mouth is?; 3/13/11, 12:18 PM
The Crack Emcee said...: "The absurdity of the Democrats’ outrage was too much.... They were accusing Republicans of 'making a mockery of democracy,'...

Well, of course, because - as everyone knows - DEMOCRACY SUCKS!; 3/13/11, 12:20 PM
Fen said...: Did Walker actually make Wisconsin a "right to work" state?

And what are the Union Brats going to do? March in the streets? Storm the Capitol? Are the Democrat Congressmen going to flee the state?; 3/13/11, 12:21 PM
lucid said...: BTW, I also use a number of screennames to make my right-wingnut opponents here look stupid by saying really, really dumb things.

See if you can figure which of the wingnuts here are really me.

HINT: One of them has a name that suggest cow's udders.; 3/13/11, 12:21 PM
I'm a Shaaaaark said...: @lucid
This is not about the concessions on wages adn benefits. I am not at all opposed to those, and they were long since decided and agreed to.

Hmmm...

The unions quickly conceded the first of these two points—at least rhetorically. Union leaders and their allies in the state legislature claimed that public employees would gladly contribute more to their pensions and health care premiums—the 5.8 percent of their salaries on the former and 12.6 percent of the premiums on the latter requested by the governor—if they were allowed to keep all of their collective bargaining rights.

It was a smart public relations move. The unions seemed reasonable and willing to negotiate.

Walker was portrayed in the media as obstinate and too eager to “strip the collective bargaining rights” of Wisconsin’s public employees. His poll numbers reflected the criticism.

But even as they offered to contribute more, unions throughout Wisconsin were rushing through contract extensions that would exempt them from having to pay more towards benefits. In some localities, public employee unions were not only pushing to avoid the increased benefit contributions, they were attempting to force through pay raises.

Huh. Weird. Sounds like someone was lying.; 3/13/11, 12:22 PM
soxfan4life said...: BTW, I also use a number of screennames to make my right-wingnut opponents here look stupid by saying really, really dumb things.

Looks like someone needs to get out of the basement and join the real world.; 3/13/11, 12:23 PM
Kevin said...: I am a lifelong Republican. I have voted for every Republican Presidential candidate since Abraham Lincoln. A wing of the Republican National Committee has been named for me, in recognition of my millions of dollars in contributions to the Republican Party.

That being said, I am so offended by the actions of that fascist, Scott Walker, that I think he should be placed in public stocks in downtown Madison and pelted with organic tomatoes. The Republican members of the Wisconsin legislature should be arrested, and placed in a labor camp in frigid Northern Wisconsin.

Oh, and pay for government workers in Wisconsin should be increased by 30%, to partially compensate them for all the emotional trauma they've suffered.

Thank you.; 3/13/11, 12:23 PM
SGT Ted said...: I guess Obama could have done it by executive order -- would conservatives prefer his governing by fiat? -fls

Since President Obama is the Commander in Chief, he could order it and command the DoD to shift enough funds to build a new prison compound somewhere else. He has the authority from the Constitution to command the nations Military.

He just didn't have the balls to to do it, like he had promised he would.; 3/13/11, 12:24 PM
Synova said...: The absurdity of the Democrats' outrage.

That about says it, you know. Garage is on about how, somehow, what Walker has done will cause rural school closings and loss of bus service that would have simply continued happily otherwise.

FLS is on about how all the tough election campaign talk about balancing budgets or fiscal responsibility didn't include *this* so Walker was a liar.

Lucid is on about how a majority vote isn't democracy and public workers are a "class" of people that shouldn't be treated as a distinct group by those who pay their wages.

Oh, and blaming the violent threats on someone who is being lied about instead of those doing the lying is... well, I'm torn between "outrageous" and "typical."

Doesn't the truth matter?

What Walker suggested wasn't that outrageous and, frankly, is only a threat to the unions because the unions don't believe they can maintain support without a government mandated prop or two to keep them afloat.

And Jackson and Moore show up, two has-been media hounds, ready to talk about how this is all about billionaire rich dudes who don't want to share.

Cuz they're mean.

(Moore doesn't even hire union labor... just in case someone on the left is unclear to what "hypocrite" actually means.); 3/13/11, 12:24 PM
Fen said...: Ritmo: [blah blah dumps turd blah blah spikes thread]

/ignore libtard

Hey! It works!; 3/13/11, 12:24 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/13/11, 12:25 PM
Fen said...: lucid: BTW, I also use a number of screennames to make my right-wingnut opponents here look stupid by saying really, really dumb things.

If you had an argument, you wouldn't need to resort to such measures.

I blame the Public School system.; 3/13/11, 12:26 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: As for lucid I have no idea what's in his mind--I can say he has made assertions that are not supportable with external evidence-now some have pilloried him for his views and that is not appropriate most have asked for him to suport his assertions--If I am wrong in this my apologies

So perhaps I have answered your riddle--if not, mea culpa

You don't have to apologize to me. Lucid's beliefs, or rather, his alleged beliefs -- according to those who attack him as a liar -- are what make him the party deserving an apology, as you rightly point out.

Ritmo--how do you know independent voters are NOT represented on this blog--show me your data - you are talking out your ass--did you not learn that assertions are not arguments?

Assertions are not arguments, but deduction is not something we should undervalue either.

When every individual or policy ever mentioned on this blog, to the left of Atilla the Hun, receives a slew of arrows drawn with the impulsiveness of a thousand jerking knees, what am I supposed to conclude about the intensity and overall political persuasion of a good majority of the commenters?

When has anyone received the treatment y'all just dished out to Lucid for expressing a right wing idea or sympathy? When? By whom? (Other than by me, of course. I'm the only non-right winger who bores into bad right wing ideas with the same ferocity that, say, Fen et al does when the shoe is on the other foot).; 3/13/11, 12:27 PM
Anonymous said...: Lucid,

No need to resort to sock puppets to look stupid. Don't misunderestimate yourself. You're plenty stupid.; 3/13/11, 12:27 PM
garage mahal said...: And at 1.24, I bet you $100 dollars that Walker would be reelected. No answer from you. But I'm a generous guy. I'll make it easy. 100 bucks says Walker won't be recalled.

So what is the bet? That he won't be recalled, or won't be reelected? By they way I'm 1-0 on this blog on political bets. I'll take either bet.; 3/13/11, 12:27 PM
Hank Rearden_WI said...: "Belittling the people who are standing up for their rights, and painting this as just "the Democrats" does not reflect well on you." Chris @ 11:52

Collective bargaining for public sector unions WAS a privilege, not a right, and an abused privilege at that.

Please cite where in the state constitution you are guaranteed the right to collectively bargain. I'll wait.; 3/13/11, 12:27 PM
lucid said...: @Old Limp Dick.

Eat me.; 3/13/11, 12:30 PM
garage mahal said...: That about says it, you know. Garage is on about how, somehow, what Walker has done will cause rural school closings and loss of bus service that would have simply continued happily otherwise.

So without the 900 million cut in education proposed by Walker, or the loss of 45 million in transit money the state will lose because of Walker's decision to end collective bargaining, this would have all just happened anyway? Not many people are buying this bullshit here, I can tell you that.; 3/13/11, 12:30 PM
Roger J. said...: Ritmo--you cant finesse the point about assertions being arguments--you are more than to construct some arguments (by deduction) but you will be obliged to contruct a data collection instrument to verify your model--did you learn nothing in research methods? (sorry--cheap jibe but fun)

If you would like to talk about research methods I will be more than happy to engage you--

this is not about fen or anyone else--a good research method to assess the althouse blog would be a subset of qualitative analysis (now all the rage in academe)--you will need to ascribe coding and go thru the contents of Ms Althouse's blog--over a considerable period--and THEN depending on your hypothesis and methodology you might be able to make some conclusions

Anyway--I will leave that as an exercise for you but hell--I told you how to do it, so give me credit in your footnotes.; 3/13/11, 12:33 PM
Phil 314 said...: An excellent, detailed article (though obviously from a conservative perspective.)

Writing as an out-of-stater and now with the info from this article, I can only guess that the Dems took this route because:
1) a core constituency and campaign underwriter (the unions) insisted this be a "line in the sand"
2) they made a political bet that sentiment within the independents was shifting against Walker and that the battle would be lost but the war won with the next election
3)they saw how energized the base was and recognized that an energized base is the key to electoral victory.

The next year will tell us if #2 and/or #3 are true.

On a separate point (and as to the "support" from Daniels) I bet a number of Republican governors are glad Walker took the heat as they now have a reference point from which they can appear more moderate/reasonable/concilliatory/circumspect etc. but still pursue the same goals. It will probably provide cover for some Democratic governors, too.; 3/13/11, 12:34 PM
Anonymous said...: Rat said--in a rare moment of self awareness:

"I'm the only non-right winger who bores ..."

Spot on.; 3/13/11, 12:35 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Old Dud - Using his illiteracy to make sense of things in his own mind.

Go do yourself a favor and eat lucid, Old Dud.; 3/13/11, 12:36 PM
Christopher in MA said...: The original bet was that he won't be re-elected. But let's make it easy. I say he WON'T be recalled. You say he WILL.

One crisp Benjamin to the winner, to be disposed of as you see fit. If you trust me to be a man of my word, we'll check back with each other then. If not, I'll send the cash to a nice, disinterested party like our pal Trooper.

Deal?

wv - "bulanne." Jack LaLanne's Southern cousin.; 3/13/11, 12:37 PM
Roger J. said...: Sorry Rit--I left out an important part of my proposed research methodology--DEDUCTION

very important--but one uses deduction to construct a model for testing--not to assert its validity; 3/13/11, 12:38 PM
Phil 314 said...: Kevin;
I am a lifelong Republican. I have voted for every Republican Presidential candidate since Abraham Lincoln. A wing of the Republican National Committee has been named for me, in recognition of my millions of dollars in contributions to the Republican Party.

That being said, I am so offended by the actions of that fascist, Scott Walker,

Please reassure me that this was meant to be sarcasm and parody otherwise I can only assume
you're either a fool or a liar; 3/13/11, 12:38 PM
garage mahal said...: Deal?

Deal. I trust you will be around next Jan 2012 on this blog to pay up.; 3/13/11, 12:40 PM
Anonymous said...: Lucy spammed:

"@Old Limp Dick.

Eat me."

Atta go tiger. You don't have to take second place to anyone in the stupid race. Well, maybe Rat, but you just have to try harder. I know you can do it. You're stupid--be the stupid.; 3/13/11, 12:45 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Here in PA, the governor is cutting the state's subsidy to education by a half billion dollars which sounds like a lot until you do the math and you realize it comes out to about $230 per student. Of course, in Garbage Mahal's world, a small cut like that means school buses are cancelled and the schools can't be heated etc.; 3/13/11, 12:45 PM
Roger J. said...: as i mentioned, no need to cover old dad's back--he does quite well; 3/13/11, 12:46 PM
Christopher in MA said...: "I trust you will be around next Jan 2012 on this blog to pay up."

Unless that heart attack with my name on it catches me, I plan to.

I trust you will be around to give me the pleasure of picking your pocket while I trample a poor, starving teacher underfoot on my way to pollute a pristine river.; 3/13/11, 12:48 PM
Synova said...: "So without the 900 million cut in education proposed by Walker, or the loss of 45 million in transit money the state will lose because of Walker's decision to end collective bargaining, this would have all just happened anyway? Not many people are buying this bullshit here, I can tell you that."

This is where you get absurd, garage.

That money isn't gone *because of* Walker's decision to limit (not end) collective bargaining. That money is gone because the economy just now *sucks*. Walker has to be a grown up and decide how to fund his state with what he has, not what he wishes he had.; 3/13/11, 12:52 PM
Terrye said...: Synova:

I doubt that lucid even knows what a right to work state is.

Mitch Daniels did away with collective bargaining for state employees through an executive order. Indiana, like dozens of other states is not a right to work state...yet. Daniels is not even opposed to such a bill, he just has a particular agenda he is pushing right now and this is not on the list.

One thing I have noticed about Daniels, he is a bean counter. He does things in a certain way and in a certain order and in the case of the right to work bill there was some screw up in the GOP leadership and they jumped the gun.

But as to this point..I doubt if lucid understands the difference. In fact right now, Wisconsin is still a more union friendly place than Indiana is.; 3/13/11, 12:58 PM
James said...: Only 20% of the state voted for Walker.

Even if that were remotely true, less than 20 percent voted for the other guy.; 3/13/11, 1:04 PM
garage mahal said...: That money isn't gone *because of* Walker's decision to limit (not end) collective bargaining.

Yes it is. The state will lose 45 million directly from Walker's bill. If you really are interested to know the details, just google it.; 3/13/11, 1:33 PM
John said...: "Wait until they see all these rural schools closing down, their bus services gone in Eau Claire, Wausau, La Crosse, etc."

So basically the strategy is to punish kids and poor people so the government will continue to pay you benefits that will lead to bankruptcy. And when the bond holders won't loan anymore and the state goes bankrupt, what then? Killing fields?

Forget it garage. It doesn't matter how many thugs you bus in or how many protests you have. Even if you could replace the entire Wisonsin government tommorow, the new government would have to deal with the same fiscal realities.

Face it garage, your entire world view and philophy is bankrupt, literally. It can't go on. We are just trying to make sure you don't take the rest of us down with you.

But one thing is for sure, big era of big paying public sector jobs and equally powerful unions is over. And it is never coming back.; 3/13/11, 1:36 PM
I'm a Shaaaaark said...: Yes it is. The state will lose 45 million directly from Walker's bill. If you really are interested to know the details, just google it.

Actually, you're referring to political payback from DC. So, therefore if indeed that money will be lost, it rests soley at the feet of those engaging in political payback.; 3/13/11, 1:37 PM
Unknown said...: Re: C4BDH/Ritmo. I have been reading this blog for a while, and I don't think anyone gives you enough credit. It must be hard to type with one hand while wanking with the other. Goes for you, too, fls.; 3/13/11, 1:37 PM
John said...: "Yes it is. The state will lose 45 million directly from Walker's bill. If you really are interested to know the details, just google it."

They will lose federal transit money. Obama could rewrite the regs tommorow and keep that from happening.

But it is more fun to punish poor people so public unions can continue to gorge on cash right Garage? You are so morally bankrupt, I really feel sorry for you.; 3/13/11, 1:41 PM
John said...: America's political is a troll. You guys realize that don't you? I think it is Trooper York. But it is a not a real person. You guys are being trolled.

And it is a good troll at that. That guy kills me.; 3/13/11, 1:42 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: I think this would be a good point to bring up a certain epistemological modus operandi that tends to be prevalent among certain political circles:

Paul Waldman believes in the political value of shamelessness:

One thing they understand very well at Fox, and in the conservative movement more generally, is the political value of shamelessness. As long as you say what you're saying with conviction, it doesn't matter how absurd or hypocritical it is. You may not get the majority of the public to agree with you, but you can get a good number. ... As a result, conservatives may not win every argument, but they almost never get routed completely.

The general amnesia of the American public aids this in the short run. But Beck's ratings reveal, it may not be a good long-term strategy. And as Jonathan Bernstein notes:

My guess would be that as an overall effect the FNC/shameless strategy is a net minus. When pundits can pick up and drop arguments at the drop of the hat without worrying about long-term consistency, it may make it easier to appear to be winning at any moment, but at the cost of actually fighting for policies they believe in.

Seth Masket provides an example of shamelessness backfiring.; 3/13/11, 1:43 PM
Famous Original Mike said...: I have no idea why anyone would engage the public-employee-union-paid trolls that have begun posting here recently.; 3/13/11, 1:46 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: rsross1:

I was actually fist-fucking your mom with the other hand. But good on you for coming up with a masturbation joke after so many years of silence and an inaccessible Blogger profile. It reflects the lack of seriousness with which your cause should be taken. Nice to know that after not having anything to say for so long, you're about as washed up as Pee Wee Herman in a porn theater.; 3/13/11, 1:46 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: I think now is a good time to point out a certain epistemological modus operandi that has become prevalent in certain political circles (circle-jerks?):

One thing they understand very well at Fox, and in the conservative movement more generally, is the political value of shamelessness. As long as you say what you're saying with conviction, it doesn't matter how absurd or hypocritical it is. You may not get the majority of the public to agree with you, but you can get a good number. ... As a result, conservatives may not win every argument, but they almost never get routed completely.

The general amnesia of the American public aids this in the short run. But Beck's ratings reveal, it may not be a good long-term strategy. And as Jonathan Bernstein notes:

My guess would be that as an overall effect the FNC/shameless strategy is a net minus. When pundits can pick up and drop arguments at the drop of the hat without worrying about long-term consistency, it may make it easier to appear to be winning at any moment, but at the cost of actually fighting for policies they believe in.

Seth Masket provides an example of shamelessness backfiring.; 3/13/11, 1:50 PM
John said...: Keep talking Conservatives 4 ...

You can whine all you want about your treatment on here, but your side is getting close to crossing a line. And once it is crossed all bets are off. If we can't have elections and then have them mean something besides more liberal policies, then we will start having elections and starting having a war. At some point, if you people won't live by the political process, what choice do you leave the rest of us but to blow your heads off and be done with it? And trust me we will do it if it comes to that.; 3/13/11, 1:53 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: A certain epistemological modus operandi that has become prevalent among certain political circles:

One thing they understand very well at Fox, and in the conservative movement more generally, is the political value of shamelessness. As long as you say what you're saying with conviction, it doesn't matter how absurd or hypocritical it is. You may not get the majority of the public to agree with you, but you can get a good number. ... As a result, conservatives may not win every argument, but they almost never get routed completely.; 3/13/11, 1:54 PM
Roger J. said...: Ritmo--bad son--bad--and your profile tells me one thing about you? post your CV so we can see what you have written or published--or your degrees--or you accomplishments other than snark

You a fucking fraud ritmo--you think the fist fucking someone's mother is a good response?:

you are a piece of cheap shit--really a piece of cheap shit

if you want my CV or my DD214 contact me on my email--but only if you are willing tell us what a fucking stud you are

not fucking likely; 3/13/11, 1:54 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Keep up the violence talk, Joh - I mean, Jared Loughner. Walker never openly campaigned on what he pushed through next, so your definition of "elections" is not only un-democratic and cowardly. It is sneaky, however, which goes well with your violence and the cowardice you admire in Walker.

I'm sure a decorticate subhuman such as yourself knows a lot about "blowing" people's "heads off". At which age did you perform your own self-decapitation? Did you use a guillotine or something more befitting of your crudity?; 3/13/11, 1:58 PM
richard mcenroe said...: Lucid... Government workers are not a 'class', they are employees. The fact that they consider themselves a class, and you defend that, is simply more proof of their institutional and your intellectual corruption.

They were not demonstrating against being exploited; they were demonstrating against the mitigation of benefits and emoluments they awarded themselves at the expense of the taxpayers, a true working class, they were hired to serve. There is nothing noble, dignified or principled in their or your defense of that position and the unlawful actions descending from it.; 3/13/11, 2:00 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: What do I need your CV for when you are too illiterate and context-bereft to read ross's original, first-time response to me, Roger? The one that, in your own mind, should have ABSOLUTELY no bearing on my response to him:

It must be hard to type with one hand while wanking with the other. Goes for you, too, fls.

Where does the definition of "fraudulence" begin for you, Roger? With reading?

What a way to jump off the deep-end.; 3/13/11, 2:01 PM
Anonymous said...: "You a fucking fraud ritmo--you think the fist fucking someone's mother is a good response?"

This is fairly typical Democrat Party name-calling at its finest.

Ritmo is the poster-boy for why Democrats simply cannot be allowed to be in charge any longer.; 3/13/11, 2:02 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: you think... is a good response

I don't claim it was a good response, but it was a fitting one given his out-of-the-blue declaration regarding masturbation.

You guys lost any claim to appropriateness long ago. At some point you can only go so far in your outrageous provocations before proclaiming to be completely undeserving of any less than dainty response.

And then there was your other fellow conservative "John", who yammered on about "blowing people's heads off". Really great crowd you're defending, Roger. Wish I could claim such civilized associations.; 3/13/11, 2:07 PM
John said...: Look I am just telling you reality. If you people keep this up, this is not going to end well for you. That is just reality. Face it, your entire ideology is unsustainable. It is dead or dying in Europe and in its death throws in America. Western liberalism as we know it is dead. It just doesn't realize it yet. But if you are going to continue to insist on a program that can't be done without bankrupting the country and continue to undermine elections and government institutions to do it, there will be violence. And you and your side will be on the losing end of it. That is just reality. If you don't like it, well sometimes life is like that.; 3/13/11, 2:13 PM
vnjagvet said...: I just read this whole thread and noticed none of our resident trolls/mobys has questioned any of the details of the linked article. Every one of them has used the usual rhetorical devices to change the subject.

I think that is because the linked article is on the whole accurate, and the trolls are left with nothing but flinging poo.

BTW Terrye and RogerJ greetings from an old denizen of the Roger Simon blog -- and fellow YARGBer.

WV "rentan": what some of the Madison protestors needed to make their demonstration seem more "diverse".; 3/13/11, 2:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Dang, Rat's bragging about fisting someone's momma. He also thought that Old Dud should eat Lucid, who in turn wanted to be eaten by Old Limp Dick.

That's just odd. Don't ask, don't tell and all that, but damn Rat--that's creepy stuff.; 3/13/11, 2:18 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Ok Roger. If the comment offends you that much I can delete it. Just let me know. But I bet you Ross' original provocative/offensive remark, regarding masturbation, will stand. I guess some of us are willing to go further than others in the decency department.

What do CVs or fraudulence have to do with any of this? It's you guys, after all, who are claiming to represent the electorate as a whole, including independents. How authentic is that? It's authoritarian, I grant you. But not very authentic or genuine.; 3/13/11, 2:18 PM
John said...: and the trolls are left with nothing but flinging poo.

That is what they do. It is their move. It is all they have left. They don't have anything left to argue. But they can scream and fling poo like angry monkeys.; 3/13/11, 2:19 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: John - I appreciate your clarification and the history lesson.

So, when do the festivities begin for ushering in this one-party state that you propose? Surely it is a new event in human history, one that we have never seen before. So obviously the celebrations should be grand enough to reflect that.; 3/13/11, 2:21 PM
John said...: "So, when do the festivities begin for ushering in this one-party state that you propose?"

Someone is going to have to come up with a new paradigm for governing. And it is not a d/r thing. Lots of establishment Republicans are just as wedded to the dying system as the Democrats are.

But the fact remains 1960s liberalism is dead. The days of big governments and big public service unions are over. What replaces it is of course the real debate. But the protestors in Wisconsin are just whisting past the graveyard.; 3/13/11, 2:24 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: John - I never realized that what Scott Walker did in Wisconsin was a war on a single era -- actually, a single decade, as you put it. Nor did I realize that collective bargaining was a part of "big government" this/that/the other. Another con tried this the other day. Labor protections as we know them have been fought for since the 18th century, and perhaps before if you want to get all metaphorical or even biblical about it. To make this about 1960s hippies is really incoherent.

And then, let's talk about how letting each administration have more say over hiring, firing, promoting civil servants only opens the door back to the same corruption, favortism and wheeling and dealing that goes back to what REAL Republicans fought against all the way back in Boss Tweed's time.

You guys really need to brush up on those history lessons.; 3/13/11, 2:30 PM
Alex said...: I am not a leftist. I am an independent moderate. In the last election I voted for every Republican on the ticket, except fo the lunatic the Republican's nominated for Governor in NY--in that case, I voted against Cuomo by voting for the Libertarian candidate.

Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans are rapidly losing people like me--moderate independents--just like Obama and Pelosi did.

I don't like extremists or bullies, especially when they hold public office.

LOL - since when are libertarians for public sector unions? I call BULLSHIT!; 3/13/11, 2:38 PM
Alex said...: Oh I can see Ritmo is back to shit-slinging monkey mode. Ritmo - this rage-induced mania doesn't suit you.; 3/13/11, 2:39 PM
Ritmo Re-Animated said...: Alex:

He didn't say he was a libertarian. He said he was an independent who voted for a libertarian.

Guess you didn't appreciate his vote.

In any event, out to brunch. Thanks for offering the indecency bait back upthread and thanks to Roger for making it all about me. I appreciate that, Roger. I guess I must be pretty powerful for a guy with a fake CV, or whatever it is that's supposed to allow me the permission to have a rational argument.; 3/13/11, 2:42 PM
Alex said...: Ut - I admire your clear-eyed passion for the issues facing our dear country. We need more like you.; 3/13/11, 2:50 PM
Anonymous said...: Rat's off to brunch. Denny's is a target rich environment for old lady fisters.; 3/13/11, 2:53 PM
former law student said...: I thought democracy was where you had elections, and the elected representatives enacted ideas they campaigned on. Didn't the Republicans telegraph this in Wisconsin before November?

Negatory, rubber duckie. Otherwise there would have been huge anti-Walker rallies in October, 2010.; 3/13/11, 2:59 PM
Terrye said...: vnjagvet:

Hello. I hope you are doing well. It is nice to see you still fighting the good fight.; 3/13/11, 2:59 PM
Jim Ryan said...: Old Dad,

This is the letter I (age 45) want to receive:

Dear Mr. Ryan:

We regret to inform you that you will no longer be entitled to social security retirement benefits. The money is not going to be there. In effect, we are declaring bankruptcy on our debt to you.

You will no longer have to pay social security tax. The social security program is being phased out, aside from SSDI and retirement for retirees born on or before 1960, who will receive their benefits, paid from the general fund. The retirement age is now 75.

Have a nice day,

Social Security Commission; 3/13/11, 3:00 PM
Alex said...: Negatory, rubber duckie. Otherwise there would have been huge anti-Walker rallies in October, 2010.

Good luck on the recall effort ball-sucker.; 3/13/11, 3:03 PM
Terrye said...: former law student:

Yes, Walker did campaign on this. He did not lie or pretend that he was anything he was not.

He just underestimated the willingness of your side of the aisle to lie and cheat.

The man should have split the bill and held the vote days, rather than weeks of the Democrats running away and hiding. The truth is a lot of people in Wisconsin are not happy with the unions either...they just want the silliness to stop.

However, they do want public employees to make some sacrifices rather than just making demands..maybe if they had been willing to do that some time ago the Republicans would not have won in the first place.; 3/13/11, 3:03 PM
former law student said...: But even as they offered to contribute more, unions throughout Wisconsin were rushing through contract extensions that would exempt them from having to pay more towards benefits. In some localities, public employee unions were not only pushing to avoid the increased benefit contributions, they were attempting to force through pay raises.

Huh. Weird. Sounds like someone was lying.

I'd bet on the person who made the assertion without naming any localities or unions.; 3/13/11, 3:03 PM
former law student said...: FLS is on about how all the tough election campaign talk about balancing budgets or fiscal responsibility didn't include *this* so Walker was a liar.

synova capsulizes the conservatives "the end justifies the means" position perfectly.

Obama may have studied Alinsky, but conservatives have studied Machiavelli.; 3/13/11, 3:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Jim Ryan,

That letter is in the mail. The only question is the date on the postmark!; 3/13/11, 3:07 PM
former law student said...: "Hank Rearden" is willing to be stripped of all of his unenumerated rights.

Somewhere, Ayn Rand's ashes are forming a dust devil in their urn.; 3/13/11, 3:09 PM
former law student said...: I just read this whole thread and noticed none of our resident trolls/mobys has questioned any of the details of the linked article.

When an author starts out by trying to BS me, I generally stop right there. If you see and smell what looks to be a manure pile, do you go pawing through it looking for the gold nuggets?; 3/13/11, 3:15 PM
Anonymous said...: fls wrote:

"When an author starts out by trying to BS me, I generally stop right there. If you see and smell what looks to be a manure pile, do you go pawing through it looking for the gold nuggets?"

Apparently you do--276 comments in. Or maybe it's a pony you're looking for.; 3/13/11, 3:18 PM
former law student said...: Yes, Walker did campaign on this. He did not lie or pretend that he was anything he was not.

Show me a campaign commercial,
a campaign brochure,
a recorded interview,
a newspaper article,
a recorded debate,

or anything else from before the election,

where Scott Walker promised to limit public employees' collective bargaining rights.

I've been waiting for two weeks to see some evidence from Walker's own mouth or fingers.; 3/13/11, 3:20 PM
former law student said...: Apparently you do--276 comments in.

I was at church, praying that the scales would fall from conservatives' eyes.; 3/13/11, 3:22 PM
Alex said...: FLS - I can't hear you with all those balls in your mouth.; 3/13/11, 3:22 PM
Anonymous said...: fls,

Logs and motes. Logs and motes.; 3/13/11, 3:26 PM
Anonymous said...: I found the article represented the events well. I suggest we revisit some additional reasons why this ugliness was required in the first place.

* Ending the corruption and waste in WEAC/WEA Trust.

* Education reform

* Refilling necessary funds robbed by the previous administration.

*Property tax relief and general tax relief. (except, for those districts getting hit by the current Union contract pushes. Good luck with that; as they will be hurting themselves).

* Entitlement reform

I'm most excited about the education reforms myself.

Got more?; 3/13/11, 4:13 PM
Brian Brown said...: lucid said...

When 100,00 American citizens turn out to protest the passage of a bill that discriminates against them as a class,

I love watching you stupids in action.

Now having state workers not hold local governments hostage in "bargaining" session is "discrimination"!

Solidarity!; 3/13/11, 4:16 PM
Trooper York said...: Just like to point out that lucid has admitted that he lied and he claims to use sock puppets to moby up this site.

If you have read the internet comments section long enough you pretty much can tell at a glance where someone is coming from. It is not rocket science. You are never as clever as you think you are when you are posting on the internets. Especially not me. You are not fooling anyone by claiming to be a conservative or a liberal. What you are comes shining out from you comments if you make enough of them.

True moderates are like leprechauns. Often talked about but never seen in real life. Just sayn'; 3/13/11, 4:49 PM
Trooper York said...: That doesn't mean that as a true liberal you can't be a good guy and some one you can count as a friend. Some people are always worth listening to even though you don't agree with one single thing they have ever said like Robert Cook for example. He is a true liberal who is consistent and steadfast in his views.

But when you come on and try to tell us you are a conservative and a Republican the only thing you are is a joke.; 3/13/11, 4:51 PM
Trooper York said...: Oh and one more thing.

BOSTON SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!; 3/13/11, 4:52 PM
Terrye said...: As to whether or not Walker made a reference to curbing collective bargaining, Stephen Hayes says the following:

That said, it’s simply not accurate to rate Walker’s claim that he campaigned on what he is now doing as “false.” In fact, he did campaign on much of what he is now doing. And while the specific collective bargaining proposal in the budget repair bill was not a regular line in his stump speech, it was also no secret that he would make significant changes to Wisconsin’s collective bargaining rules.

The Politifact/Journal Sentinel rating suggests otherwise. “It seemed to us like the first public hint Walker gave that he was considering eliminating many union bargaining rights was at a Dec. 7, 2010 Milwaukee Press Club forum, some four weeks after the election.”

Really? That claim is undermined by the paper’s own reporting. On August 30, the Journal Sentinel ran an article on plans by Walker and Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, his Democratic opponent, to save the state money by revamping health insurance plans for public employees. The reporter spoke to Ryan Murray, a top policy adviser for the Walker campaign, who explained the candidate’s plan. “The way the proposal would work is we would take the choice out of the collective bargaining process," Murray said.

So does taking the choice out of the collective bargaining process mean ending it for health care? The reporter certainly seemed to think so. “[Murray] said school districts often have some of the most expensive health benefits in Wisconsin and could receive cheaper insurance through the state if they didn't have to negotiate with unions about who would insure their members.” (Emphasis added.)

What was clear to the reporter was also clear to the teachers’ unions. “Our members oppose taking away their rights to collective bargaining, so they would definitely raise their voices against it,” said Christina Brey, a spokesman for the Wisconsin Education Association Council, the union leading protests today. (Emphasis added.)

Although the Politifact/Journal Sentinel evaluation of Walker’s claims makes reference to this story, the paper failed to include this rather significant quote in its write up.

So a top Walker adviser made an on-the-record comment that both a reporter and a union representative understood as meaning an end to collective bargaining. And another teachers’ union, the American Federation of Teachers, found Murray’s comment so threatening that they included it in a flyer warning teachers to vote against Walker who, they claimed, wanted to “void parts of labor contracts.”; 3/13/11, 5:05 PM
Trooper York said...: Please Terrye don't confuse us with facts.

Just tell us the Walker and all the conservatives who post here are poopyheads!; 3/13/11, 5:09 PM
Terrye said...: Trooper York:

Sorry. I forgot.

But while we are on the subject of facts, it is also true that Walker offered some concessions himself and the Democrats refused, and then they tried to deny that any such offers were made...but Walker had the emails.

The truth is in politics adversaries often have their own version of what is true. But one thing is for sure, states all over the country are going to have to make changes like this if they are going to balance their budgets.; 3/13/11, 5:31 PM
Fen said...: and the trolls are left with nothing but flinging poo.

Makes you wonder where all the intelligent Democrats are.

The libtard trolls here are lame. Even FLS has devolved.; 3/13/11, 6:00 PM
Unknown said...: ====A government that imposes extreme measures on those who oppose it can't survive in America.

Walker's bill is the Republicans Obamacare.

You can't do to American citizens what Walker is trying to do. ===

And yet 24 other states and the Federal government do have "extreme" limitations on union collective bargaining privileges. How do you suppose this cruelty goes on? ...; 3/13/11, 6:50 PM
Gary Rosen said...: " What the hell is your stake or interest in Israel and why? Are you an evangelical or a neocon?"

Looks like ritmo is now part of the circular buttfuck with fls and C-fudd. Did you know Walker's last name is really ben-Walkerbergsteinfeldbaum?; 3/13/11, 7:25 PM
Lovernios said...: Whatever. The over-reaching triumphalism on display here reminds me of the guns that go off in Gaza during the celebration of a wedding or a terrorist attack. You guys are truly the al Qaeda of American politics. If only hypertext could allow for ululation.

This kind of glib false equivalence would be merely silly, but in light of the recent gruesome murders of an Israeli family, including a 3 month old infant, all stabbed to death in their beds by a Palestinian hit team, it borders on despicable.

Wait, it doesn't border on, it is despicable. I've lurked here for some time and this "Ritmo" character is a complete ass.

It thinks it's so clever and witty, but it's really just an ass.; 3/13/11, 8:28 PM
PackerBronco said...: Raw emotion works for the Dems right now.

Simple reason works for the Republicans.

For example, Raw Emotion Yells: "They're taking away our RIGHTS! They're trying to make slaves of us ALL!!!" Simple Reason responds: "So, you mean the Federal Workers are all slaves?"

In the last few weeks, the news cycle has been dominated by Raw Emotion. Try existing on that for the next 6 to 12 months. You can't Either you have to escalate or you backtrack. You can stay idle. Wanna take bets on which way the public goes if the protesters escalate?

Raw emotion may get you enough signatures for a recall; but I don't think that's enough to win the recall election.

Quite simply: the Republicans have the better of the argument.; 3/13/11, 9:12 PM
Synova said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/13/11, 10:07 PM
Synova said...: "One thing they understand very well at Fox, and in the conservative movement more generally, is the political value of shamelessness. As long as you say what you're saying with conviction, it doesn't matter how absurd or hypocritical it is. You may not get the majority of the public to agree with you, but you can get a good number. ... As a result, conservatives may not win every argument, but they almost never get routed completely."

Ha ha ha ha.

Show me a liberal who doesn't practice political shamelessness. (And all that symbolic public sackcloth and ashes over being American doesn't count.) OR one who can accurately define "hypocrite."; 3/13/11, 10:20 PM
dick said...: lucid,

You truly are an idiot. The whole reason for a constitution is to place a limit on government. Without a constitution the government would be free to do whatever it wished. With a constitution the limts are set in the document as to just how far government can go in using its powers. Of course conservatives are all for limits on government. We believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Evidently you and your cohorts do not believe in either.; 3/14/11, 12:04 AM
Revenant said...: The majority of non-Democrats have no problem with what Walker did in Wisconsin.

That the majority of Democrats do is a problem, but one we should be able to overcome.; 3/14/11, 3:28 AM
Drew said...: Republican strategy for 2012 should be to randomly choose a public employee from each govt dept and point out their education, experience, salary, years or service, cost of fringe benefits,at what age they could retire and how much their pension will be.

Then use that data in TV ads without naming the emloyee. The public, especially independent voters, will be shocked, angered and energized by the exorbitant compensation and will be motivated to vote against Dem candidates.

While I don't doubt that would be successful, it would be the same crappy class-warfare tactic that the Democrats have been using for . . . oh, as long as I can remember.

While obviously the point would be that this person benefits on the backs of the taxpayers thanks to union deals, the message that would end up being communicated would be that it is wrong to be financially well-off.

So . . . no. The message has to be clear here. It's not the wealth, it's the way it's gained.; 3/14/11, 8:31 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: I think that the ramifications of what happened in WI, OH, etc. will not leave us. The debate has been changed, and likely changed for good.

The incestuous relationship between politics and government employee unions has been growing for quite some time now. And, a lot of people in this country have been somewhat ambivalent about it. They know that these government employee unions almost exclusively support Democrats, but unions have always done so, and so what?

But, in this time of financial strain, it has become apparent to many more that government employees, and, in particular, government union members, are the biggest class that ha benefited, up until now, during the financial meltdown. And, the incestuous relationship is even more apparent, with really the only real beneficiaries of the "stimulus" package being government workers - while everyone else was being laid off and taking pay cuts, they were getting hired, raises, and benefit increases, at the expense of the rest of us, and, in particular, our grandchildren.

Teachers are at the forefront of this for a number of reasons. For one, they seem to be doing progressively worse, for ever more money, with no end in sight. Instead of actually teaching the basics, they are so often acting as propagandists for liberal orthodoxy.

I frankly don't think that the protests in Madison are going to help the government employee union movement in the long run. They ended up looking like spoiled kids, acting out. This is contrasted by the way that the Republicans looked so much like the adults here. Throw in the standard union bullying, and you take away a fairly negative impression of those unions and their members.

Remember, the money that they are demanding is coming out of the pockets of the citizens who, on average, don't earn as much, and only have a fraction of the benefits. And, they are demanding increases to this largess at precisely the wrong time.

So, I think that more and more people are questioning things when they see union protests and union activism. They no longer think industrial unions, but rather, spoiled government workers.; 3/14/11, 10:41 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: So, why not be as aggressive with the public safety unions?

My suspected answer is fear. The people fear what happens if fire or police do not respond as quickly as they should. And, so, they fear the effects of a work slowdown by either. Besides, the cops are the ones carrying the guns, and in a lot of the country, that doesn't just mean their service pistols, but also fully automatic assault weapons.

I think that fire departments are safer from this sort of scrutiny than are the police. For most of us, we just don't see firemen unless we really need them, whether that be in an auto accident, or when our houses are burning down.

But many of us run into the cops a lot more often, and a lot of the time, it is not pleasant. A lot of traffic enforcement seems designed more to raise money to pay all those overpaid government workers, and to give the police all their shiny toys. Add to that, in my case, 3 times in my 50s, when I thought I should have been too old for it, I endured significant police hassling, as they utilized their discretionary power to show me who was the boss. The last one was a $400 towing bill and walking for maybe 4 miles at 4 in the morning, all because apparently I didn't shown them enough respect.

And, that is why they were walking on thin ice when they appeared to sympathize with the protesters here. Their traditional power has come from protecting the middle class from the predators in the lower classes, but in this case, they were seemingly protecting the predators. They can expect to be targets here of reform, if a sufficient numbers of the middle class start seeing the relationship as us working for them, instead of the other way around.

Oh, and keep in mind that some of the biggest pension scams have come out of the police departments. There are a number of departments around the country where retiring officers have first call on overtime, in order to spike their retirement level, and so you see brass doubling their hours that last year or so, and ending up with pensions far beyond what many here make at any point in their lives.; 3/14/11, 10:58 AM
Scott M said...: When every individual or policy ever mentioned on this blog, to the left of Atilla the Hun, receives a slew of arrows drawn with the impulsiveness of a thousand jerking knees, what am I supposed to conclude about the intensity and overall political persuasion of a good majority of the commenters?

Hysterical. You do realize that he was a king, ie, a despot, ie, tyrannical, ie the absolute pinnacle of centralized power. Doesn't get much further left than that. Anything further left than A.T. Hun deserves nothing but derision.; 3/14/11, 12:10 PM
Scott M said...: The thought occurs to me that President Obama may quip that it would be easier to be Atilla The Hun. Probably a bit more in line with him ideologically as well.; 3/14/11, 12:33 PM
Synova said...: "synova capsulizes the conservatives "the end justifies the means" position perfectly."

Just wanted to leave a clarification. I don't know how anything I said arrives at "end justifies the means" but I will note that I was WRONG when I agreed that Walker did not say he'd need to do something about what public employee unions could "bargain" over.

Someone else posted quotes showing that this was actually known before the election, that Walker had mentioned, for example, the ability of unions to dictate higher priced insurance, and newspapers reported it and the teacher's union issued a statement not to support Walker because of it.

So FLS is absolutely wrong about Walker not letting people know what they were in for.

But even if people had not had the heads-up before the election, I think they'd have to be pretty stupid not to realize what would need to be done to do whatever Walker said he needed to do. This sort of "Waaa...waaa...waaa no one told me!" over things that should have been apparent to anyone with a brain was the argument du jour during the Bush admin and it's just as juvenile as it sounds. Waaa...waaa... Walker never TOLD ME that he'd have to cut the budget in order to cut the budget! Waaa...waaa... Bush never MADE ME UNDERSTAND, and that's his JOB! Cuz I'm a PUTZ!"

Second parallel: Bush LIED because the media and people chose not to pay attention to parts of what he said and spent all their attention on other things. Walker LIED because he said what he was about but the info went down the memory hole. Obviously Walker's fault.

I don't know how this amounts to ends justifying the means. Unless, of course, I'm somehow just as responsible as Bush or Walker for what other people chose not to pay attention to or spend the time or two brain cells to think through all the way. In that case, perhaps the whine is that I'm willing to take advantage of people who don't pay attention.

And I guess that boils down to if one believes that you're responsible for yourself or if you'd prefer that others be responsible for you.; 3/14/11, 6:25 PM