Althouse: "What the Democrats don't like isn't dictatorship, it is democracy."

February 17, 2011

"What the Democrats don't like isn't dictatorship, it is democracy."

"That is why the Democrats in the Wisconsin Senate fled the state en masse — they prevented a quorum, so that a vote they were going to lose couldn't take place. Once again, it is democracy they are trying to frustrate, not dictatorship."

214 comments:

1 – 200 of 214 Newer› Newest»

Anonymous said...: Well, it is true. The great thing about our little political paradise is that we can change laws every couple years. Any of them. All of them.

If this is such a bad idea, surely it will result in a massive defeat for Republicans in Wisconsin. Right? Anybody?; 2/17/11, 11:17 PM
Dose of Sanity said...: Probably Seven. I wouldn't be surprised.; 2/17/11, 11:18 PM
Jason said...: Exactly, Seven.

If the Democrats hate this so much...then vote no, let the bill pass, and run on it in the next election.

Remember...in a liberal's world, there are no bad policies. If liberal policies fail, its just because of bad communication.; 2/17/11, 11:19 PM
Trooper York said...: Every day these douchenozzles act out like two year olds they create more Republican votes.

Thanks Dose.; 2/17/11, 11:21 PM
Jim said...: Ann:

Great reporting the last couple of days.

Keep it up. I am starved for the info and pictures you and Meade are dishing out.

Jim Lindgren; 2/17/11, 11:23 PM
Bender said...: Time for school districts to take those teachers who are defrauding the government by falsely calling in sick and treat them like PATCO -- tell them if they don't show for work, they will have been deemed to have quit their jobs.

Suspend their paychecks and terminate them all.; 2/17/11, 11:26 PM
Dose of Sanity said...: Every day these douchenozzles act out like two year olds they create more Republican votes.

Every time you refer to citizens protesting, as per their right, as douchenozzles you create more Democratic votes.

Thanks York; 2/17/11, 11:31 PM
Fen said...: Texas 1979. Democrat "Killer Bees" flee Austin.

http://www.billhobby.com/bhobby-how-excerpt.htm; 2/17/11, 11:32 PM
Anonymous said...: Rule #1 of Althouse:

Don't get in a pissing contest with Trooper.

You have been warned.; 2/17/11, 11:33 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I just watched Governor Walker's press conference.. maybe there is some calamitous detail I don't know that only the teachers know.. but the governor sounds reasonable to me.

wv: ditraxi = legislators fleeing a minority vote; 2/17/11, 11:34 PM
Mark said...: Hey Dose, what percentage of the people whose lives are being disrupted by the teachers' civil disobedience are actually union?

For those who aren't union, how do you think this makes them FEEL about the Cause?

Sure, the kids being indoctrinated may register Democrat, and some percentage may believe forevermore that cutting class for Ms. Wallflower to go to the Capitol to RESIST THE FASCISTS was the best thing ever, but my friend, that's a mighty small demographic upon which to pin your hopes for a just society.

In the meantime, the workers who actually work for their bosses, their customers, and coincidentally their paychecks are going to be pissed that the prima donnas who are transparently gaming the system are screwing with their lives.

Another day out, and whomever can fire a no-show teacher is morally obligated to do so, in my opinion.; 2/17/11, 11:34 PM
Fen said...: Union Thug: Every time you refer to citizens protesting, as per their right, as douchenozzles you create more Democratic votes.

But then you abort them, so it comes out even.

Douchenozzles; 2/17/11, 11:34 PM
Dose of Sanity said...: Be sure to pass that sentiment along to those greedy firefighters, police men and state troopers who showed up to protest the union busting today.

Oh. wait.

Thanks for the heads up Seven. He's been nothin-fer-alot today. I can't help but push my luck.; 2/17/11, 11:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Every time you refer to citizens protesting, as per their right, as douchenozzles you create more Democratic votes.

Yeah, you racist teabaggers. So there!

We have the right to shut down government cuz things aren't going our way. If they're going to vote the opposite of the way a Democrat would vote, then all this democracy stuff is a bunch of racist teabagger crap.; 2/17/11, 11:40 PM
Anonymous said...: No, Dose. It's the opposite. Trooper is an awesome commenter here. He's very witty but he'll also smack you down.

I'm not going to get into a big discussion about the politics of this, but the larger issue is that the kabuki of unions against management is an antiquated, untenable structure, not least because of the future debts it had imposed in the future. Mickey Kaus lays it all out very well.

Anyway, most people understand this in at least some way, because it is simply an objective fact. Anyone who doesn't is a douchenozzle, in a minority that may look large in a public square in Madison, but is not.; 2/17/11, 11:42 PM
Fen said...: Be sure to pass that sentiment along to those greedy firefighters, police men and state troopers who showed up to protest the union busting today.

Douchenozzles all.; 2/17/11, 11:44 PM
Trooper York said...: Well we will have to see Dose won't we.

I bet all those voters who are parents are really happy with these douchenozzles.

I think your governor should double down.

Start laying them off as soon as possible. Let these parasites get real jobs.; 2/17/11, 11:46 PM
Dose of Sanity said...: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_1995

Government shutdowns are the devil, aren't they?

Seven - I welcome witty comment and attempt at smackdown. Why else would I be posting here? :)

As your comment about rectifying the unions in the some form, perhaps there is need for that. Absolutely annihilation of them is not the solution.

And with that, I retire. Work tomorrow. Until tomorrow...; 2/17/11, 11:48 PM
Dose of Sanity said...: Well we will have to see Dose won't we.

Look forward to it.; 2/17/11, 11:49 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: This thing with Walker is Hitler bit..

Did Hitler become the Hitler the protesters are referring to withing a month of taking office or did it take a month for the concentration camps to get going?

I'm confused.

And this is from 'teachers'.; 2/17/11, 11:52 PM
Trooper York said...: You ever notice when they catch a crooked cop or a molester teacher that the first person they call is their union rep?

Their job is to protect the criminal and corrupt.

Which is the best way to descibe unions.

I grew up with the ILA in Brooklyn back in the 1960's and the thievery and corruption can not be properly
described in polite company.

I know guys like you Dose all my life.
They were Dese, Dose and Dem kinda guys which is what I am. But the crooks and the bums all took union jobs. I see that things have not changed.; 2/17/11, 11:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Dose,

It's a mistake to identify a firefighter with her union. Unions are a PAC. They exist to extort. Naturally some beneficiaries will squeal when the tit is threatened. Witness Madison, exemplar of titty babies. Others know that the sow sometimes rolls over on her piglets, and eats them.

As for me, the public sector unions are costing me money, and can go eff themselves.; 2/17/11, 11:57 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Every time you refer to citizens protesting, as per their right, as douchenozzles you create more Democratic votes.

Keep in mind that they were on the public payroll when they were advocating for more money. I don't think that anyone can complain about a non-violent protest on the protesters own dime.

But in this case, they were on sick-leave, which means first that the citizens of Wisconsin were paying for them to be protesting, and secondly, that they were lying about being sick.

Well, and, yes, I think that there is a difference between protesting against a war, etc., and protesting to get more money out of the government, as if some right of theirs had been violated, or that the taxpayers somehow owed them this.; 2/18/11, 12:04 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: For someone to become a dictator withing a couple of months has to be some sort of world record...

Walker is the 'Hitler' Jesse Owens ;); 2/18/11, 12:05 AM
Mark said...: Once unions become monopolies, they become parasites on the core functions that their members are supposed to support.

Want to make a car? Feed the parasite a percentage to make that car.

Want to teach a kid? Feed the parasite that "protects" that kid's teacher.

If the parasite could learn how to be a symbiote, it might be different. But do the actions in Madison look like those of a symbiote wanting to work with its host? No.; 2/18/11, 12:07 AM
former law student said...: Once again, it is democracy they are trying to frustrate, not dictatorship.

History repeats once more, per wikip: In the United States Senate, during the early morning hours of February 25, 1988. Senator Robert C. Byrd of West Virginia, then the Senate Majority Leader, moved a call of the house after the minority Republicans walked out in an attempt to deny the Senate a quorum after Senate aides began bring cots into the Senate cloakrooms in preparation for an all-night session over campaign finance reform for congressional elections. Bryd's motion was approved 45-3 and arrest warrants were signed for all 46 Republicans. Senate Sergeant-at-Arms Henry K. Giugni and his staff searched the Capitol's corridor and Senate office buildings for absent Senators, and after checking several empty offices, spotted Senator Steve Symms of Idaho, who fled down a hallway and escaped arrest. After a cleaning woman gave a tip that Senator Robert Packwood of Oregon was in his office, Giugni opened the door with a skeleton key. Packwood attempted to shove the door closed, but Giugni and two assistants pushed it open. Packwood was "carried feet-first into the Senate chamber by three plainclothes officers" and sustained bruised knuckles.; 2/18/11, 12:14 AM
Chip Ahoy said...: I saw that over there on the Blog Father's found it to be a particularly perceptive and biting remark.

As to the kids being indoctrinated, I see them as far brighter than video clips that make them appear clueless can convey. They're brought by the busload to the museum by my home and by contact I find their thoughtfulness and perspicacity impressive. Whatever you parents are doing, congratulations, you're doing it well.; 2/18/11, 12:16 AM
Bartender Cabbie said...: Rubber bullets for that crowd?; 2/18/11, 12:17 AM
MayBee said...: It's like it never occurred to the left that if they spent 3 decades talking about the dire situation of our public schools, eventually someone would start wondering if our teachers were any good.; 2/18/11, 12:36 AM
former law student said...: The Tea Party stands for the proposition that when the government is trying to take something from you, you just roll over and let it? Is that what I am supposed to understand from this?

And I'm happy to see Professor Lindgren here. His school -- private, not state operated -- charges law students almost $50,000 in tuition each year. And yet Wisconsin charges its citizens only $18,000 in tuition a year. What could that difference be? Does Professor Lindgren make 2.8X what Professor Althouse does?

Or, as still seems likely, do the Wisconsin taxpayers pay half Althouse's salary? And if so, is that really what they want their tax dollars spent on? Is there a shortage of lawyers in Wisconsin?

If Ann or Meade could find five Wisconsin taxpayers* who would assert that Wisconsin has a crying need for more lawyers, I will send $25 cash to the charity of their choice.

*Random, on-the-street, employed but not by government, and not lawyers or spouses of lawyers.; 2/18/11, 12:40 AM
Chip Ahoy said...: I spot a British flag hung upside down or backwards a mile away.

What, you say?

Notice the white X is thinner on one side. When it's wrong it looks like a propeller twirling clockwise instead of counterclockwise.; 2/18/11, 12:45 AM
Peter Hoh said...: It's a tactic, not unlike the filibuster, that's designed to thwart the majority.

Granted, I don't approve of the tactic, but it's there.; 2/18/11, 12:46 AM
Anonymous said...: FLS -- Why are you hiding the ball? Why are you trying to make the issues here what the issues just are not.

For fun, though, it's very easy. Law schools are very cheap to operate. You are leeching off an existing campus. Your primary cost is salaries, and salaries at public schools are competitive but not as high as at private schools of the same caliber.

So, do the math. Someone here said Althouse makes $160,000. Fine. For every 10 students paying $18,000, there's one person faculty or staff member making $160,000. I'd say that's a ratio and a salary figure (as many administrators are paid much lower) generously in your favor.; 2/18/11, 12:47 AM
Anonymous said...: FLS was far better off pointing out that Republicans have and would pull this exact same shit if they thought it was a good tactic.

Nobody here is stupid. Except the moron teachers who can't spell words on their signs correctly. But the legislators and the governor are smart and not evil or bad. Keep that in mind, and you'll see this thing much more clearly.; 2/18/11, 12:49 AM
Sofa King said...: The Tea Party stands for the proposition that when the government is trying to take something from you, you just roll over and let it? Is that what I am supposed to understand from this?

Er, no. That is why we are not just rolling over and letting the GOVERNMENT employees simply take whatever they want from us.

They feel they need to fight for their own interests. I don't begrudge them that. March and protest and if they convince the rest of the voters to go along with them next election then so be it. I do begrudge them doing it on my dime and in violation of the contract negotiated on my behalf, however, and I don't think that's an unjustifiable grudge.

They are basically already breaking the contracts they negotiated at this very moment. Why should I believe they will hold themselves to any future contracts?; 2/18/11, 12:50 AM
Anonymous said...: I'd add that the Tea Party is Ross Perot's Reform Party re-hatched and warmed over. That's neither good nor bad, just an objective fact.

The Tea Partiers agree on getting rid of the enormous debt. Beyond that, much like any group in opposition, they are united against what is currently in power.; 2/18/11, 12:52 AM
former law student said...: For fun, though, it's very easy. Law schools are very cheap to operate. You are leeching off an existing campus. Your primary cost is salaries, and salaries at public schools are competitive but not as high as at private schools of the same caliber.

So the Northwestern/Madison price difference arises from the cost of the separate professional campus?

Would you be interested in knowing that Marquette charges their law students the same amount that UWLS charges out of state students? They also have the law school on campus, salaries are their biggest expense, etc. With a 50% profit margin, they must really be raking in the bucks; hard to believe of the Jebbies, though.; 2/18/11, 12:56 AM
Revenant said...: The Tea Party stands for the proposition that when the government is trying to take something from you, you just roll over and let it? Is that what I am supposed to understand from this?

Er, FLS... the Madison protesters ARE the government that takes things from the rest of us. Well, those of us who live in Wisconsin, anyway.; 2/18/11, 12:57 AM
Anonymous said...: FLS -- Why do you insist of not understanding economics. Northwestern charges more for law school because it can. It also pays more for its employees. Its facilities are out of this world grand and fabulous, too. I live across the street, actually. Come down and I'll show you.; 2/18/11, 1:00 AM
Anonymous said...: FLS -- Why does Tylenol cost more than Equate, or whatever the off brand is? Why does detergent always cost more at one grocery store than another one? Why does the Latin School here in Chicago cost more -- much more -- than Catherine Cook?

Why didn't you take an econ class when you had the chance? There's still time.; 2/18/11, 1:04 AM
Eric said...: Every time you refer to citizens protesting, as per their right, as douchenozzles you create more Democratic votes.

No. They don't have a right to cut work like that. They can protest, sure. On their own time, like normal people. These people? Douchenozzles.; 2/18/11, 1:12 AM
former law student said...: Northwestern charges more for law school because it can.

U of C is $5K less -- I suppose NU gets a geographic desirability premium. The other schools are cheaper, but not in proportion to their perceived quality.; 2/18/11, 1:13 AM
Anonymous said...: U of C is $5K less -- I suppose NU gets a geographic desirability premium.

It could also be a property costs a ton more right by the John Hancock premium.

But who knows why schools charge what they charge? -- not to say there are not sound economic reasons. The University of the South recently cut tuition by 10 percent. Meanwhile, I believe good but certainly not great Sarah Lawrence is the most expensive school in the land.; 2/18/11, 1:17 AM
former law student said...: 7M: How do people figure property value into costs? Northwestern acquired that piece of land in 1920, paying cash I believe.

And from your study of economics, don't prices reflect the marginal cost -- the cost of putting one more butt in one more seat?; 2/18/11, 1:43 AM
Anonymous said...: FLS -- One thing to consider is that Northwestern's campus is not attached to the main Northwestern campus. It's a block of so of land basically downtown. So, the leeching off the larger campus is not happening for Northwestern's Law School. Property taxes are another possible issue (if universities pay them).

There are several other reasons I could throw out. Ultimately, though, I am speculating. The company I worked for out of college made it a point to charge a little more than its big competitor -- for no reason other than perceived snob appeal.; 2/18/11, 1:50 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: Jesus Christ, you guys:

Where's the love?; 2/18/11, 3:15 AM
tim maguire said...: it is democracy they are trying to frustrate, not dictatorship."

Well, maybe, but "dictatorship" evokes the emotional response they are reaching for and so is the proper term. The fact that what they are protesting does not meet the definition of dictatorship is the sort of thing only a conservative would concern himself with

Liberal communication is about emotional reactions, facts are silly things.

Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to.
--Talking Heads; 2/18/11, 5:12 AM
Mick said...: The Crack Emcee said...

Jesus Christ, you guys:

Where's the love?

Nothing like an artistic smackdown of a Leftist racist by a black man!
Kudos; 2/18/11, 5:20 AM
tim maguire said...: FLS, it's good to see you come out in favor of hunting down these dogs, arresting them and dragging them, kicking and screaming if necessary, back to the state house to do their duty. I agree with you fully.; 2/18/11, 5:21 AM
Humperdink said...: Boy, that new civility crap lasted long. I have seen more Hitler signs in the last two days (directed at Republicans of course), than I have seen directed at the Won in two years.

Democrats just love our democracy......except when they lose.

The Dems fleeing to Illinois reminded me of an army in full retreat. It's a shame they didn't escape to Canada. Now that would been more fitting.; 2/18/11, 5:29 AM
EnigmatiCore said...: "Every time you refer to citizens protesting, as per their right, as douchenozzles you create more Democratic votes."

This "I know you are but what am I" reply is childish, which is somehow apt.

It is going to be very interesting to see how public opinion comes down. I don't think the Wisconsin teachers' union is going to be happy with the results.; 2/18/11, 5:43 AM
Unknown said...: In democracies, people have the right to collective bargaining.; 2/18/11, 5:43 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: Every time you refer to citizens protesting, as per their right, as douchenozzles you create more Democratic votes.

I think that another problem with the meme that it was just citizens protesting, as is their right, is that they are on both sides of this dynamic here - they are the government and they are the voters.

Sometimes you think that government employees, and those on welfare, shouldn't have a vote, at least at the level of the government that they work. Because, invariably, they are voting for their own salaries, at the expense of everyone else.

But, then you realize that this protest on the part of the teachers is just an extreme form of rent seeking, and that rent seeking from the government is really one of the biggest problems with our system right now.; 2/18/11, 5:55 AM
Humperdink said...: "In democracies, people have the right to collective bargaining."

Really? Where is that spelled out?; 2/18/11, 5:55 AM
Unknown said...: Agree with Jim Lindgren. You and Meade are doing yeoman service, Madame. Hope it's recognized at some point.

Dose of Sanity said...

Be sure to pass that sentiment along to those greedy firefighters, police men and state troopers who showed up to protest the union busting today.

You mean the ones who had the blue flu, rather than do their duty?

Lem said...

This thing with Walker is Hitler bit..

Did Hitler become the Hitler the protesters are referring to withing a month of taking office or did it take a month for the concentration camps to get going?

No, that was after the Night of the Long Knives, when all the opposition leaders were murdered.

Trooper York said...

You ever notice when they catch a crooked cop or a molester teacher that the first person they call is their union rep?

Excellent point, Troop, and another reason to jettison these slugs.

Your kid has a lot higher chance of being molested by a union teacher than by a Catholic priest.; 2/18/11, 5:59 AM
tim maguire said...: Barry, I think you are confusing Democracies with Free Market Economies (much overlap, but not the same thing).

You are correct--people do have collective bargaining rights in a free market economy. But employers also have the right to not work with those collective bargainers.

Forgot that part, didn't you?; 2/18/11, 6:05 AM
Anonymous said...: Actually,
Democrats like dictatorship.

They just want to be the dictators.; 2/18/11, 6:06 AM
Anonymous said...: Well, after several days of this, I'm convinced.

If these spoiled brats don't show up to work today, fire them and hire replacements.

Hard to believe these spoiled brats are getting paid to do this.; 2/18/11, 6:07 AM
Anonymous said...: Milwaukee Teachers Fight for Viagra Coverage
.; 2/18/11, 6:08 AM
TWM said...: Pfft, let them protest. They look like what they are which is greedy idiots. Sooner or later the Dems have to return and then the law will pass. They're just delaying the inevitable.

In the mean time the Gov should get a list of those striking (which is what they are doing) and fire their asses.; 2/18/11, 6:15 AM
mrs whatsit said...: What I want to know is, who paid for that bus the Democrats were riding around on while they were hiding? I saw a number of references to a bus -- presumably chartered -- and wonder if they could possibly have had the clueless nerve to bill the voters for it. Anybody know?; 2/18/11, 6:25 AM
Andrew said...: Hey. Kind of like how Republicans in the US Senate filibustered every Goddamn bill that came their way.

You reap what you sow.; 2/18/11, 6:29 AM
Anonymous said...: @Rick:

".."In democracies, people have the right to collective bargaining."

Really? Where is that spelled out?"

It's in the Constitution. Right after the 'right to privacy' but before 'separation of church and state'.; 2/18/11, 6:30 AM
Andrew said...: Also:

In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state's budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January.

The entire budget "crisis" was manufactured by Walker literally wasting money just so he could have a pretext to bash unions.; 2/18/11, 6:32 AM
mrs whatsit said...: Dose of sanity, do publicly-employed citizens have a right to falsely call in sick when they are not? Could you point out to me where it's written down? These people are falsely collecting public money that was levied from taxpayers to educate children, and using it instead to finance their expression of their personal views. If they were down there after school or on a Saturday, I'd have no problem -- or even if they took one day off without pay (not three) to do it. Lying, however, and cheating the taxpayers, is beyond the pale.

For every vote Trooper loses for calling them names, the teachers themselves will lose three or four from people who would prefer to have honest citizens teaching their children.; 2/18/11, 6:35 AM
Anonymous said...: US Senate rules allow filibusters. Wisconsin Senate rules do not allow absence without leave.; 2/18/11, 6:35 AM
Toad Trend said...: @BarryNetanya

"In democracies, people have the right to collective bargaining."

No. Collective bargaining is not a right. It is a tactic.

And I think the type of 'democracies' that you refer to are not democracies at all, but, nanny-state constructs, the type that spring from the idea that governments grant rights.

So, I'll call your 'democracy' and raise you top-down government like we see today. Where government workers believe they can dictate terms to taxpayers/citizens.; 2/18/11, 6:39 AM
EnigmatiCore said...: Andrew- you mean, kind of like a fairytale that isn't true, or do you mean like a photo-negative?

http://100days.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/filibusters-the-senates-self-inflicted-wound/; 2/18/11, 6:45 AM
MikeR said...: I have to admit that it's interesting trying to deal with my own cognitive dissonance, of how I felt during the Health Care Bill debate and how these protesters feel now. I did think that it was wrong what Congress was doing to me and the country, even though we lost the election. Somehow, the protests, along with the procedural gimmicks that were necessary to pass the bill, made us feel that the Democrats were gaming the system, doing something to us that we hadn't voted for.

I think one important difference, at least in terms of our feelings, was that a whole lot of Independents actually voted for Obama and the Democrats. They were feeling betrayed by a Democratic administration that decided it had a mandate to make the place over into Europe, and just went off its mind.
I'm not an Independent, but I think I was part of a clear feeling that the liberals had taken advantage of the election and were doing something that the majority of Americans very much didn't want.
Here, I doubt that a single one of these protesters voted for Walker or the Republican legislature.; 2/18/11, 6:46 AM
Toad Trend said...: @Andrew

"The entire budget "crisis" was manufactured by Walker literally wasting money just so he could have a pretext to bash unions."

No, again, this was covered in a different thread yesterday.

The 140 mil you refer to are tax incentives for business and HSA tax deductibility. So calling it spending is wrong.

What people earn as income is their property. The government is not entitled to it. So whatever a wage earner ends up keeping should not be counted as 'spending'.

Ridiculous.; 2/18/11, 6:46 AM
Andrew said...: None of that changes the fact that the filibuster is a parliamentary gimmick, that the GOP's use of it was unprecedented and that Constitution says nothing about the Senate requiring a super-majority.; 2/18/11, 6:47 AM
John henry said...: Several people have commented on the fact that the Demmies chose Rockford as their initial hidey-hole.

Nobody has commented on the poetic logic of this choice.

Rockford is still the 2nd or 3rd largest city in Illinois. It got big in the last century by being a manufacturing powerhouse. Lots and lots of good industrial manufacturing jobs in a number of different industries (Including clocks and watches, which is why the Time Museum used to be there and why the BW is called "The Clock Tower" resort)

The reason why Rockford is somewhat dreary now is because of all the old husks of these companies and factories.

And why is Rockford no longer a manufacturing powerhouse as in days of yore? Why is Illinois in general no longer a manufacturing powerhouse?

Politicians, of both parties, figured that the goose would continue to lay golden eggs no matter what. Even if they killed it.

Now the pols are trying to kill jobs, industry and commerce in Wisconsin. Rockford is the perfect metaphor for this. Good on them for picking it to hole up in.

John Henry; 2/18/11, 6:57 AM
John henry said...: People have mentioned this in other threads but it bears repeating constantly until people figure it out.

Fascism IS socialism.

It is an ideology founded by Mussolini who was a very proud and vocal about being a socialist until the day he died.

It is not just an epithet to be used against people you disagree with. It is not just an epithet which is mostly used today in the opposite of its meaning.

While not all socialists are fascists, all fascists are socialists.

The fascists in this case are those who want the state to take care of them. Not the gov and the Repo pols.

John Henry; 2/18/11, 7:03 AM
Roger J. said...: Professor--second Mr Lindgren's and Edutcher's accolades--keep it up.; 2/18/11, 7:08 AM
KCFleming said...: Teachers and the rest of the government workers forgot that they are public servants, and now believe that the public are their servants, or worse, just a bunch of stupid cows to be milked.

But all socialist schemes hit an economic tipping point after which those being milked either leave or stop producing, and the whole thing falls apart.

Wisconsin is at that very point. If the unions win, the population will get the message, and start their exits. Slowly, very slowly, the productive will leave, and new businesses will avoid it.

Happens every time.; 2/18/11, 7:09 AM
KCFleming said...: Happens every time.

See John Henry's info about Rockford for a great example.; 2/18/11, 7:10 AM
Roger J. said...: Perhaps channeling Ambrose Bierce:
"Filibuster:" a parliamentary tactic praised when out of power but condemned when in power (unless you have enough votes for cloture); 2/18/11, 7:12 AM
Anonymous said...: Funny thing how most of the demonstrators are dressed in RED, like Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Che'.

Coincidence?....nah.; 2/18/11, 7:33 AM
E Buzz said...: The influence of Communism amongst our fine teachers is really laid bare here.

It's been a slow hidden process over many years, but how can anyone deny it?

Any surprise Bill Ayers has such a high position of influence in the US education system?

To me, it's absolutely scandalous...to them, it's awesome and kick ass and so great because they.; 2/18/11, 7:33 AM
Humperdink said...: @Lars....I must have a defective copy of the constitution, those phrases are not in my copy.

Of course I am not lawyer, but I did stay at the Best Western last night.; 2/18/11, 7:39 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Collective bargaining for Public Unions is basically this: The democrats in power give the unions everything they want, no matter what the budget will allow, and the tax payer is on the hook. The tax payer isn't notified. There is ZERO transparency.

Transparency: progressives were so taken with Obama when Obama promised transparency.; 2/18/11, 7:47 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: When democrats don’t get their way - they act like tyrants, like spoiled children, like mini-dictators themselves. The voters have spoken - they want transparency, accountability, a balanced budget and an end to collective bargaining at gun point via the PUBLIC Union.

Sadly, the left are so deluded with their superiority, they have no idea they are such anti-democratic freaks.; 2/18/11, 7:50 AM
KCFleming said...: Shorter Wisconsin union message: Shut up and gimme milk, taxpayers.

Or else you're just Hitler.; 2/18/11, 7:56 AM
Toad Trend said...: @Pogo

"Shorter Wisconsin union message: Shut up and gimme milk, taxpayers.

Or else you're just Hitler."

Sounds similar to the message of the leftist DC elites:

Shut up and agree with me, or else you're a racist bigot homophobe.; 2/18/11, 8:02 AM
galdosiana said...: Agreed. Now the TA union is trying to pressure Biddy Martin (the chancellor) into canceling classes university-wide today. I don't think she will, but can you imagine if she did???!! As it is, virtually all of my colleagues (more than 70) are canceling their classes and asking their students to go protest with them.

In my view, canceling classes takes the students' right to a voice away from them. They are paying for an education, and they ought to be able to choose to get it if they do not support this bill. By canceling classes, my colleagues are pressuring their students into only accepting one political view, and THAT is NOT education. It's indoctrination.; 2/18/11, 8:11 AM
SGT Ted said...: Ah yes the liberal definition of welfare and government largesse:

Letting business and people keep more of the money they earned.

Do you realise how stupid that makes you?; 2/18/11, 8:15 AM
Peter Hoh said...: NotyoutypicalNewYorker: Funny thing how most of the demonstrators are dressed in RED, like Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Che'.

Coincidence?....nah.

And it might be because red is the team color of the University of Wisconsin.; 2/18/11, 8:18 AM
garage mahal said...: The voters have spoken - they want transparency, accountability, a balanced budget and an end to collective bargaining at gun point via the PUBLIC Union.

Walker never once ran on ending collective bargaining. But you're right, the people have spoken, and they'll get another chance in less than a year, when this two bit tyrant is recalled, rejected, ejected, and sent packing back to wherever the fuck he came from.; 2/18/11, 8:18 AM
X said...: third prize is you're fired

wv:flycles - the founder of Dipteran democracy; 2/18/11, 8:20 AM
The Dude said...: Dose of Clap thinks "alot" is a word. Heh heh...; 2/18/11, 8:23 AM
Minzo said...: I'm confused...Republicans threatened to pretty much shut down government when they won the house unless they got what they want. (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_09/025804.php) Didnt see much objection then. How are these-admittedly childish- tactics any different?; 2/18/11, 8:31 AM
SGT Ted said...: Ah yes, reducing government spending because there's no money is EXACTLY like TYRANNY AND INJUSTICE!

Do you actually think that makes any sense whatsoever?; 2/18/11, 8:32 AM
TMink said...: Garage, repeat after me: America is a democratic republic. There are no dictators here.

To state otherwise makes you look incoherent and unhinged. Disagree with his policies in a cogent manner, and people may be swayed. Calling the governor a dictator or an aardvark just makes you look beyond flakey.

Trey; 2/18/11, 8:32 AM
MadisonMan said...: are dressed in RED, like Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Che'.

Coincidence?....nah.

And it might be because red is the team color of the University of Wisconsin.

And Wisconsin is a 'Red' state now. (Actually, Wisconsin's color is Cardinal); 2/18/11, 8:34 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: So, caring democrats, if the choice is: Either the public sector employee must kick-in more for his/her retirement and healthcare...

-or-

The children have to face cutbacks in the class room. What's your choice?

Here in CO, the democrats in power have sided with the unions.
The democrats in power have chosen to protect the posh and unsustainable public employee union pensions and irresponsibly written retirement contracts over the children.
The media are reporting daily about upcoming cuts to classrooms and programs. See, the unions win, the children lose.; 2/18/11, 8:35 AM
Fen said...: Garage:the people have spoken, and they'll get another chance in less than a year

Garage 2008: "We won. Get over it"

when this two bit tyrant is recalled, rejected, ejected, and sent packing back to wherever the fuck he came from.

For my entire life, Unions have been nothing more than the Brownshirt wing of the Democrat party - stealing money via union dues, beating up citizens who protest against Dems, rigging and stealing eletions.

They can go fuck themselves.; 2/18/11, 8:36 AM
Sofa King said...: Walker never once ran on ending collective bargaining.

He ran on balancing the budget. This is a necessary step in that process.; 2/18/11, 8:37 AM
Sofa King said...: How are these-admittedly childish- tactics any different?

One is legal and follows the rules of procedure. The other is illegal and a dereliction of duty.; 2/18/11, 8:38 AM
Fen said...: And now they're threatening violence against the families of lawmakers voting on the bill.

Fine. Lets play.; 2/18/11, 8:39 AM
garage mahal said...: Garage, repeat after me: America is a democratic republic. There are no dictators here.

He introduced a bill last Friday ending collective bargaining rights for every state, city, town, village, and county employee in the State of Wisconsin. And he wants it signed this week, without a hearing. As a sign I seen last said "If you need the National Guard, there's something wrong".

He ran on balancing the budget. This is a necessary step in that process

Ending bargaining rights for workers has ZERO to do with balancing the budget.; 2/18/11, 8:40 AM
Anonymous said...: Ending bargaining rights for workers has ZERO to do with balancing the budget.

Corrected:

Ending bargaining rights for [public] workers has EVERYTHING to do with balancing the budget.

Time to stop the spoiled brats from feeding endlessly at the public trough.

Garbage, are you one of these spoiled brats? Looks likely.; 2/18/11, 8:44 AM
Anonymous said...: Hey. Kind of like how Republicans in the US Senate filibustered every Goddamn bill that came their way.

1. They did no such thing.

2. They did not "fillibuster" by leaving the capitol.; 2/18/11, 8:46 AM
Anonymous said...: What's your scam, garbage?

It's pretty clear that you're in on the spoiled brat tantrum.

So, tell us. What's your scam?; 2/18/11, 8:46 AM
Fen said...: Lets just say that your taxpayer dollars fund his internet rants.

Its like being forced to pay union dues to fund Obama's campaign!; 2/18/11, 8:48 AM
garage mahal said...: What are you mumbling about now thomas?; 2/18/11, 8:49 AM
Anonymous said...: Ending bargaining rights for workers has ZERO to do with balancing the budget

Um, epic fail:

"If approved in the April 5 election, the district will borrow $13 million to pay for health benefits for retirees and to refinance its Wisconsin Retirement System debt.

A total of $10 million will go to the post-employment benefits and rest would be be applied to the refinancing."

But hey, ignorance is a virtue for you.; 2/18/11, 8:49 AM
Joaquin said...: Garage)
Bargaining righs? Huh?
Wasn't that granted by the legislature? Can't the legislature also take it away?; 2/18/11, 8:49 AM
Triangle Man said...: He ran on balancing the budget. This is a necessary step in that process.

@Sofa King

The facts just don't support that assertion. The budget *was* balanced when he took office. He decided to enact some tax cuts that created a modest shortfall (1% of the total budget). That shortfall and the projected 10% shortfall for the next biennium could be addressed by the proposed cuts in public sector compensation. The anti-union provisions have no direct revenue generating or expense reducing function.; 2/18/11, 8:52 AM
Anonymous said...: What are you mumbling about now thomas?

Obviously, you are in on the spoiled brat scam.

Enlighten us. What's your scam?

What kind of hustle have you got going to fleece the taxpayers of Wisconsin?

You're clearly a scam artist. You have every right to keep your scam hidden.

Give us suckers a clue. What's your scam.; 2/18/11, 8:55 AM
Anonymous said...: If I were one of those state employees who's being mulcted for dues to pay for union representation that (according to Garbage and Triangle) don't have any effect on how much the state pays me, I'd be pissed at the union and happy with Walker.; 2/18/11, 8:56 AM
Triangle Man said...: Time to stop the spoiled brats from feeding endlessly at the public trough.

@Shouting Thomas

You're mixing your metaphors there ST. Kind of hard to follow what you are getting at beyond speen venting.

If the Governor wants a smaller government for Wisconsin, then he needs to step up and start making the hard choices about what programs and services to cut, and who gets fired as a consequence. The anti-union actions are about something else.; 2/18/11, 8:57 AM
roesch-voltaire said...: I can see that pointing out that the state of Wisconsin has a positive balance in the budget, or noting that Republicans have walked out to deny a quorum makes no sense to folks who see teachers, firefighters and police officers as douchennozzles. While Walker may try to separate the 300,000 directly affected by his bill from the rest of the citizens, I suspect the next election will show just how inter connected we all are.; 2/18/11, 8:58 AM
jerryofva said...: Reading comments by FLS, Garage, alpha et. al., has led me to the conclusion that every progressive is a Jared Lochner waiting to happen. The irrationality, the emotion and hate expressed by their comments on this and every subject is an indication of their basic mental instability. All it takes is the right Daily Kos “she is dead to me” comment to light the fuse. I am not engaging in hyperbole just to get a rise out of them. I used to think that Progressivism is little more than a group socio-pathology but now I believe that the eventually the group pathology ends up being expressed by individuals as the level of cognitive dissonance rises. This is why the ultimate destination of the progressive state is violence, dictatorship and poverty. The Lochners end up rising to the top.; 2/18/11, 8:59 AM
SGT Ted said...: "If you need the National Guard, there's something wrong".

Yes and that something wrong is the actions of out of control citizens who act like goons and thugs threatening to harm people and destroy property when they don't get their way and don't respect the Democratic Process or the rule of law or the will of the people as expressed by their vote.

The subtext of that idiotic phrase "If you need the National Guard, there's something wrong" is that the National Guard, sworn to uphold your rights and keep order by putting down lawlessness, is nothing more than a pack of goons, when the goonish, thuggish behavior in this instance is that of the unions and their supporters.; 2/18/11, 8:59 AM
Sofa King said...: Triangle Man:

That's absurd. Assuming you are talking about the current FY and not the upcoming budget and its greater than $3 *billion* deficit, there's still the little matter of *unappropriated* expenditures in the current FY that are necessary to meet obligations. I'm guessing you're referring to the Cap Times op-ed, which conveniently omits those expenditures even though the very LRB document they link to highlights them.; 2/18/11, 9:00 AM
Anonymous said...: The anti-union actions are about something else.

Like what?

You do realize muncipalities and the state government fund these public sector union salaries and retirement benefits, right?; 2/18/11, 9:00 AM
Anonymous said...: If the Governor wants a smaller government for Wisconsin, then he needs to step up and start making the hard choices about what programs and services to cut, and who gets fired as a consequence. The anti-union actions are about something else.

The last few days have made it abundantly obvious that breaking the union is precisely what needs to be done.

Governor Walker's first move should be to fire these illegal strikers.

These spoiled brats need to be spanked.; 2/18/11, 9:00 AM
lemondog said...: This is a democracy and we run it!

Oops, that is....we use to run it.......

{{sigh}}; 2/18/11, 9:02 AM
Triangle Man said...: @Jay

How does what you post relate to collective bargaining rights? Are you saying that Shorewood teachers have been systematically overcompensated due to union negotiated salary and benefit packages? Please make your point.; 2/18/11, 9:02 AM
Lincolntf said...: Yeah, let's pretend that Governor Walker is the problem.
Ignore the foul mouthed illiterates "educating" WI children, ignore the sniveling cowards who fled the State rather than do their jobs, and most importantly, ignore the fact that you are B-R-O-K-E.

The Wisconsin Teachers are a great reminder of what happens when a State has zero standards.; 2/18/11, 9:02 AM
Anonymous said...: Yes and that something wrong is the actions of out of control citizens who act like goons and thugs

Actually they are busing in the "protestors" from other places.; 2/18/11, 9:04 AM
Anonymous said...: Are you saying that Shorewood teachers have been systematically overcompensated due to union negotiated salary and benefit packages?

I'm saying all the teachers are over-compensated.

This isn't complicated.; 2/18/11, 9:04 AM
Sofa King said...: Are you saying that Shorewood teachers have been systematically overcompensated due to union negotiated salary and benefit packages?

How could anyone deny this?; 2/18/11, 9:05 AM
Anonymous said...: How does what you post relate to collective bargaining rights? Are you saying that Shorewood teachers have been systematically overcompensated due to union negotiated salary and benefit packages? Please make your point.

Teachers have been systematically overcompensated because their union is bribing Democratic Party candidates who, upon being elected, kick back higher salaries and benefits.

This is called corruption. And, it's workers in the private sector who are taking the hit to pay for the lavish pay and benefits of public sector employees.

Time to spank the spoiled brats.; 2/18/11, 9:05 AM
The Crack Emcee said...: No sell out, you douchennozzles!

Wow - I've never used "douchennozzles" in my life! It's so,..so,..liberating!

Trooper York does it again!; 2/18/11, 9:05 AM
Calypso Facto said...: I'm with ST on this. Initially on the side of agreeing that the union-busting was an unnecessary antagonism, the events of the last 3 days have proven to me that breaking these self-interested unions is indeed an immediate necessity. Thanks to the protesters for clearing that up for me.; 2/18/11, 9:05 AM
ricpic said...: The so-called Democrats are communists and they thrive on chaos. The only antidote is Walker's unflinching adherence to the process of lawful governance.; 2/18/11, 9:06 AM
Triangle Man said...: Teachers have been systematically overcompensated because their union is bribing Democratic Party candidates who, upon being elected, kick back higher salaries and benefits.

That does not seem to be the case in Wisconsin. It may be true elsewhere, but the data do not support your assertion. Additionally, this is not just about teachers and even if it were, their union had already agreed to significant changes in how compensation is handled.; 2/18/11, 9:07 AM
DADvocate said...: Does this surprise anyone? Their model is patterned after the USSR. Everyone gets to vote but only for us.; 2/18/11, 9:07 AM
Fen said...: While Walker may try to separate the 300,000 directly affected by his bill from the rest of the citizens, I suspect the next election will show just how inter connected we all are.

You're really underestimating the contempt people have for Unions, esp the Teacher's Union. They've been over-playing their hand for at least a decade now.

Obama's poor economy. Everyone else is tightening their belt. The unions are pampered and out of touch with the times.; 2/18/11, 9:08 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I suspect the next election will show just how inter connected we all are.

I suspect that if Walker insisted that taxation be increased to ensure that public sector workers didn't have to contribute a fraction of what private workers do to their benefits, he'd be out of a job.; 2/18/11, 9:08 AM
chickelit said...: garage mahal said...
...when this two bit tyrant is recalled, rejected, ejected, and sent packing back to wherever the fuck he came from.

Walk, trot, or gallop, the good State of Wisconsin will move Forward whether you like it it or not.; 2/18/11, 9:09 AM
Calypso Facto said...: R-V, you mean like this?:

"I have to wonder if the governor isn't purposely sounding like Chicken Little, painting the dire picture of the worst budget crisis in Wisconsin history, whipping state residents into a collective depression of epic proportions," Lazich wrote in her piece. "Why the bearer of such bad news? Think about it. The governor overstates the budget debacle by a country mile, allowing him to offer dramatic, headline-grabbing spending cuts as solutions.

Except...oops. That was written in 2009 about Dem. Gov. Jim Doyle.

The article presciently went on:

If a Republican posed such measures, she stated, the press would label them "draconian."; 2/18/11, 9:09 AM
Anonymous said...: How does what you post relate to collective bargaining rights?

Er, the collective bargaining by these public sector unions is a racket.

The racket is ending, hence the hysteria.; 2/18/11, 9:09 AM
Fen said...: their union had already agreed to significant changes in how compensation is handled.

Dad: "Sorry kids. Finances are really bad. We may lose the house"

Brat: "I'll trade my Mercedes in for a Beemer, but thats it"

Dad: [....]; 2/18/11, 9:10 AM
Anonymous said...: That does not seem to be the case in Wisconsin. It may be true elsewhere, but the data do not support your assertion.

Is that why they're freaking out about contributing to their own health care and pensions?

Your comments are laughable.; 2/18/11, 9:10 AM
garage mahal said...: Wasn't that granted by the legislature? Can't the legislature also take it away?

Sure. But it don't look like that's going to happen anytime soon. What's the rush anyway? 1 week? Time to slow this way down.; 2/18/11, 9:10 AM
Sofa King said...: That does not seem to be the case in Wisconsin. It may be true elsewhere, but the data do not support your assertion.

What data?

You say they already agreed to concessions, but I simply do not believe the union is negotiating in good faith here. It's not a long-term solution, because as soon as nobody's paying attention they'll be RIGHT BACK at it. Everyone knows this.; 2/18/11, 9:12 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: It never ceases to amaze me that in times of economic downturn, people being laid off, salaries and benefits being cut, public workers and government spending is some kind of Holy Grail that not only should not be touched but in fact, more money should be devoted to it.; 2/18/11, 9:13 AM
PaulV said...: Price fixing by cartels is wrong, whether it is done by corporation or labor unions.

WV: nonman or by nonman; 2/18/11, 9:15 AM
DADvocate said...: Anyone who thinks teachers get a lot of sympathy from the general public has forgotten their own school experiences or doesn't have kids in school.

Teachers are generally the bottom of the barrel in college and treat many parents with condescension. They circle the wagons, cover up and protect each other whenever wrong doing is suspected (sex with students, abuse and such).

In my experience 10%-20% of them are acceptable. The rest need to be thrown out on their ears.; 2/18/11, 9:16 AM
Anonymous said...: You say they already agreed to concessions

What "concessions"

I'd love for someone to name 3.; 2/18/11, 9:16 AM
Triangle Man said...: How could anyone deny this?

Support your argument. Why focus on the tiny district of Shorewood?; 2/18/11, 9:19 AM
MaggotAtBroad&Wall said...: I don't understand why Governor Scott doesn't say something like, "The work stoppage in our public school system is harming our students and must end. The Democrat senators who refuse to do their job have a choice. They either show up Friday to debate the bill, offer amendments and vote, or the pink slips for 6000 public employees go out on Monday."

Will they set fire to the capitol?; 2/18/11, 9:22 AM
Triangle Man said...: @Jay

Why three?

1) Elimination of the "step schedule" compensation
2) Merit pay
3) Performance evaluations
4) Division of the Milwaukee Public Schools district

Agreements to cuts in benefits have been superseded by Governor Walker's bill, but we might give them credit for negotiating that too.; 2/18/11, 9:23 AM
Calypso Facto said...: "The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service."

Never thought FDR would be quotable about too big and too entrenched a gov't...; 2/18/11, 9:24 AM
MadisonMan said...: Is that why they're freaking out about contributing to their own health care and pensions?

You see, Watson, but you do not observe.

The "freak-out" as you call it, is for the removal of collective bargaining. Tell me why the State Govt should care, for example, how the Union wants to take care of teacher-principal conflict?; 2/18/11, 9:25 AM
Lincolntf said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/18/11, 9:26 AM
Roger J. said...: I see Mr Obama has thrown his "support" behind the strike in WI--excellent--thats sure to convince the badger state voters.

Obama is a bigger douchenozzle than the teachers/public sector idiots.; 2/18/11, 9:26 AM
knox said...: Ending bargaining rights for workers has ZERO to do with balancing the budget.

I read similar statements in various comment threads yesterday. Inexplicable.; 2/18/11, 9:27 AM
Triangle Man said...: public workers and government spending is some kind of Holy Grail that not only should not be touched but in fact, more money should be devoted to it.

@Hoosier

What are you talking about? Who is asking for more money? Are you just making things up?

The discussion is about collective bargaining rights. Everyone in the public sector has had compensation cuts going back almost two years and is getting additional cuts.; 2/18/11, 9:27 AM
Lincolntf said...: Who would've ever guessed that the collapse of the Democrat Party would begin with a handful of screaming zealots skipping out of work? Not me, but I'll take it.

The "Short Bus Revolution" will not end well for the WI suckers who've bought the Dem Party line their whole lives. The disillusionment will ultimately be worth it, but for now they are faced with the reality that for years they've been supporting the most backward, hateful, money-grubbing aspects of Government over their own children.; 2/18/11, 9:28 AM
Anonymous said...: "And it might be because red is the team color of the University of Wisconsin."

So, you think that's it....really?

The red that labor is draping these protesters in has nothing, nothing to do with UW team colors.

But you know that.; 2/18/11, 9:28 AM
Henry said...: I bet the National Guard could run the public schools better than the teachers.

I'd certainly be willing to try it out.

Let's fire all the middle school teachers. Middle school is chaos even when the teachers aren't on strike.; 2/18/11, 9:29 AM
Triangle Man said...: I read similar statements in various comment threads yesterday. Inexplicable.

@knox

How is it supposed to work?

1) Eliminate collective bargaining rights
2) ???
3) Profit!; 2/18/11, 9:29 AM
Sofa King said...: I never mentioned Shorewood, you did.

Teachers - actually most public sector union workers - are overcompensated across the board for three main reasons:

1. Concentrated gain at diffuse expense. Because the costs are spread out widely and the benefits are concentrated, a natural imbalance occurs wherein it is more costly, from an organizational point of view, for the taxpayers to oppose increases than it is for the relatively few employees to demand them.

2. Unions are premised on an opposition management. When unions are able to influence state and local elections to the degree they have, (and I do believe they have the free speech right to do so), they are stacking the deck in their favor and essentially, sitting on both sides of the table. This undermines the very justification of having a union in the first place, and because of #1, is structurally very difficult for opposing interested parties to overcome via elections.

3. Because their work is in service of essentially a cartel, they wield a greatly disproportionate amount of power to disrupt the lives of people through coordinated nonperformance. The ultimate check on private employee unions is the health of the company - if their demands are unreasonable they company folds. Government cannot go out of business, cannot go bankrupt, and cannot be outcompeted. The government's legitimate monopoly on certain critical functions enables the public employee union to subvert that awesome, dangerous power of government to their own self-interested ends. That, by far, is the most unacceptable thing about the status quo. Even FDR recognized this.; 2/18/11, 9:29 AM
TosaGuy said...: So why should a small special interest group have a stranglehold on the collective contributions of all the taxpayers of Wisconsin?

It's fun when you can use someone's rhetoric against them and be right.; 2/18/11, 9:30 AM
Triangle Man said...: I bet the National Guard could run the public schools better than the teachers.

@Henry

You're another one of those Minnesotans like Pogo who is trying to drop Wisconsin in the education rankings, right?; 2/18/11, 9:31 AM
Sofa King said...: MadisonMan -

Again, there is no trust. There is no reason to assume good faith. The unions have "freaked out" about all of these things in the past. They will almost certainly do so as soon as they can in the future. What they say right now at this moment is irrelevant - they will say anything to keep their *power.*; 2/18/11, 9:32 AM
Auggie said...: Wisconsin Senate Democrats.... real Profiles in Courage? NOT!

Keep up your great reportage of the events in Madison, Professor! America needs to see and hear this point of view. You blog sure has become a civics lesson for America!
(....so when are you writing the book? :) ); 2/18/11, 9:32 AM
Automatic_Wing said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/18/11, 9:33 AM
Triangle Man said...: @Sofa King

My bad. Shorewood came up because Jay had posted quotes from an article about Shorewood. My response to him is what you responded to, and my response to you assumed you meant Shorewood.

So, back up your assertion that Wisconsin teachers are overcompensated.; 2/18/11, 9:33 AM
Automatic_Wing said...: How is it supposed to work?

1) Eliminate collective bargaining rights
2) ???
3) Profit!

Are you suggesting that a unionized workforce doesn't cost more than a non-union equivalent?

If that's the case, what purpose does the union serve?

What you seem to be saying is that unions collect their dues but provide no benefit back to their members; 2/18/11, 9:34 AM
Henry said...: @Triangle Man -- No, I'm from Rhode Island. We're already at the bottom.; 2/18/11, 9:34 AM
Sofa King said...: So, back up your assertion that Wisconsin teachers are overcompensated.

They have health and pension benefits that virtually NOBODY in the private sector has. They have incredible job security, to the point they can just blow off work to go protest in Madison, that virtually NOBODY in the private sector has.; 2/18/11, 9:38 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Funny how liberals can't stand the thought of giving parents choice when it comes to education. The left collectively brainlessly vilify vouchers, when in reality the voucher system would help poor and middle income parents give their children the opportunity for a higher quality education. Parents already pay w/ their property taxes for the public school system. If they choose to get out of the matrix, they have to pay twice. Liberals whine that vouchers will only help rich people. Not true. Rich people already have the choice to leave the bad public school system. We must help lower and middle income parents; our nation's future depends on it. Only progressives stand in the way. This is why Obama killed the popular DC voucher program that helped lower income children escape a bad public education in DC. The democrats are in bed with the corrupt monopoly that is the teachers union.; 2/18/11, 9:39 AM
Triangle Man said...: Are you suggesting that a unionized workforce doesn't cost less than a non-union equivalent?

I want to know what step 2 will be, or should be.

1) Eliminate collective bargaining
2) ???
3) Profit

Here are some options, but I'd like to see more ideas.

2a) Cut pay and benefits

2b) Eliminate jobs

2c) Replace highly paid senior workers with junior ones; 2/18/11, 9:39 AM
garage mahal said...: I just want to know if everyone here is so fucking smart, and these public workers have it sooooo good, why none of you are public workers?; 2/18/11, 9:42 AM
Sofa King said...: 2) Eliminate union make-work rules and productivity limits.; 2/18/11, 9:42 AM
Sofa King said...: why none of you are public workers?

I don't have the political connections.; 2/18/11, 9:43 AM
Anonymous said...: The "freak-out" as you call it, is for the removal of collective bargaining.

Actually, it isn't.

But you're good at pretending.

Tell us, genius, which teacher's union has accepted contributing more to their health care and pension.

Name 1.

Thanks in advance.; 2/18/11, 9:43 AM
Anonymous said...: Tell me why the State Govt should care, for example, how the Union wants to take care of teacher-principal conflict?

Well, they already do. But we knew that already.

Anyway, they want remove the continued push off the fiscal cliff.

But again, you're pretending.

Carry on.; 2/18/11, 9:44 AM
Henry said...: @Triangle Man -- To follow up, I'm willing to treat Elementary School as a special case. My kids are in elementary school and despite it being run by imagination-free apparratchiks the teachers are pretty good.

My city's middle school is a different story. It's a disaster.

If I could break the certification boondoggle that prevents qualified people from teaching middle- and high school because they haven't jumped through enough bureaucratic hoops I would do it in a heartbeat.; 2/18/11, 9:45 AM
Fen said...: /via The Corner

"Neither side can pull back, because the financial crunch is going to have to be resolved one way or another. We either scale back government and the power of public employee unions, or we move toward a structurally higher tax burden and a permanently enlarged welfare state. The very nature of the American system is now at stake. The emerging populist movements on both the right and left recognize this, and so cannot turn back from further confrontation."

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/260065/whos-polarizing-america-stanley-kurtz; 2/18/11, 9:45 AM
Automatic_Wing said...: Here are some options, but I'd like to see more ideas.

2a) Cut pay and benefits

2b) Eliminate jobs

2c) Replace highly paid senior workers with junior ones

Here's the thing - All of the above are a lot harder to do if you're dealing with a union than if you aren't. This seems obvious.; 2/18/11, 9:45 AM
Anonymous said...: So, back up your assertion that Wisconsin teachers are overcompensated.

Because the tax paying public covers 80+ percent of their health insuracne costs.

Just to name 1 example.; 2/18/11, 9:46 AM
Anonymous said...: I want to know what step 2 will be, or should be.

1) Eliminate collective bargaining
2) ???
3) Profit

It is fun watching you be so stupid.; 2/18/11, 9:47 AM
Lincolntf said...: I was a "public worker" for a few years. Of course I was sleeping in a tent, toting a rifle and eating out of envelopes for much of that time, but still.
If the Teachers want the equivalent of Army pay, they should probably get it, but not a penny more.; 2/18/11, 9:48 AM
Automatic_Wing said...: In fact, the very reason unions exist is to prevent things like cutting pay and benefits, eliminating jobs and replacing highly paid senior workers with junior ones. Again, obvious stuff.; 2/18/11, 9:48 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I just want to know if everyone here is so fucking smart, and these public workers have it sooooo good, why none of you are public workers?

I just want to know, why the taxpayer should be forced to contribute more of their wages to public worker wages and benefits ensure that public workers don't have to.

That is the question being raised here and not how 'good' public workers have it. I suspect you know that but instead rather throw out a strawman.; 2/18/11, 9:48 AM
Anonymous said...: Where'd Garbage get the idea that none of us are public workers? 28 years with the FAA here, and laughing all the way to the bank. Thanks, suckers!; 2/18/11, 9:49 AM
Triangle Man said...: @Sofa King

Wisconsin teachers on average are paid around $49k with $25.5k in benefits. They have, on average, 15.6 years of experience. Wisconsin routinely ranks in the top 10 in the U.S. for education quality, though usually behind Minnesota (to our eternal shame).

You think this is unreasonable?; 2/18/11, 9:51 AM
Henry said...: I just want to know ... why none of you are public workers?

I was once offered a job in the public sector. It was a dumbed-down highly-constrained version of what I was doing as a contractor (and with no end date). To get the dumbed-down version of what I was already doing I would have to take a civil service test. Then I would be assigned a grade level that would determine my salary (minus union dues). Over time, if I kept looking busy and kept taking civil service tests, I might move up in the bureaucracy.

You couldn't pay me enough.; 2/18/11, 9:52 AM
Lincolntf said...: $75,000 for a half-year of 6 hour work days? Yeah, that's unreasonable.; 2/18/11, 9:54 AM
roesch-voltaire said...: Milwaukee Archbishop Jerome E. Listecki on Wednesday said in a letter to lawmakers that workers should not be "marginalized" ... He said in the letter there is a "moral obligation each of us has to respect the legitimate rights of workers.” Another douchenozzle heard from!; 2/18/11, 9:56 AM
garage mahal said...: Where'd Garbage get the idea that none of us are public workers?

Gee, I don't know.; 2/18/11, 9:57 AM
Joe said...: (The Crypto Jew)

Milwaukee Archbishop Jerome E. Listecki on Wednesday said in a letter to lawmakers that workers should not be "marginalized" ... He said in the letter there is a "moral obligation each of us has to respect the legitimate rights of workers.” Another douchenozzle heard from!

What Workers Rights does the Church have, again? I mean is their Collective Bargaining for the Faithful? When was the last Steward’s Meeting where we elected Local or Union leadership of our Church?; 2/18/11, 9:59 AM
BarrySanders20 said...: This is a brilliant move by the Democrats with strong historical precedence that it works.

They take themselves hostage and issue demands. It worked great for Cleavon Little in Blazing Saddles!; 2/18/11, 9:59 AM
Sofa King said...: You think this is unreasonable?

Is that the mean or the median? In any case, yes, I do. Prorated for 12 months, that's $100,000 in pay and benefits for a job that, to be perfectly frank, does not require a huge amount of skill or experience. And that figure doesn't include the value of their incredible job security, either. Or the scamming that goes on vis pension pay and double-dipping.

This isn't just about teachers, though. I don't even think that teachers, while overpaid, are the most grossly overpaid government employees. But they have thrust themselves to the front of this issue (thanks to that incredible job security again!) so they are the ones getting the pushback.; 2/18/11, 10:00 AM
MadisonMan said...: Tell us, genius, which teacher's union has accepted contributing more to their health care and pension.

WEAC. (I think that's the right acronym -- the state Teacher's union).; 2/18/11, 10:00 AM
Anonymous said...: Milwaukee Archbishop Jerome E. Listecki on Wednesday said in a letter to lawmakers that workers should not be "marginalized" ... He said in the letter there is a "moral obligation each of us has to respect the legitimate rights of workers.” Another douchenozzle heard from!

Yea, respect the rights of our government overlords to higher pay, lifetime job security, free gold plated benefits and unlimited time off for protesting at the state capital.

So, these guys must be just like blacks in the Jim Crow south, right?

We shall overcome!

Soak the rich! Soak the public employee unions. Make them redistribute their wealth to me!; 2/18/11, 10:01 AM
SGT Ted said...: I know the National Guard, as far as organizational skills goes, could very well do it with less money, because, when OUR budgets were cut, we saluted and complied with the will of the people and reduced spending to meet our budget goals.

It wasn't easy but we made it happen. Staffing was reduced across the board, uneccessary but nice programs were reduced or eliminated. We met the manning requirements simply by not filling positions when they came open. The rest of us doubled or tripled up on our duties but we managed to accomplish our missions.

What we didn't do was take to the streets or act like the taxpayers owed us more money just because we wanted it. But then again, we don't have the divided loyalties because we don't have a union.

As far as teaching goes, well, our primary mission and proven expertise is teaching. We call it training, but it's the same thing, just different pupils and different goals. Our success is proven by our ability to successfully acomplish our missions, even under enemy fire.

See, the days of the functional retarded guy as cannon fodder are long over. Liberals won't see that or admit it, because it flies in the face of their preferred narrative of soldiers as either morons duped into service, victims of warmongering neo-cons or rabid dog baby killers.

Unions are private corporations and no public servant has any business supporting the union or a political party over the government job he is supposed to be performing.

They should fire all the striking teachers for violating the Hatch Act. They should disband the public employee unions for the same reason.; 2/18/11, 10:01 AM
Lincolntf said...: "moral obligation each of us has to respect the legitimate rights of workers."

You're easily gulled by pretty words, aren't you? The very model of a modern Liberal.; 2/18/11, 10:01 AM
Triangle Man said...: @Maguro

Governor Walker was able to effectively enact permanent compensation cuts of 7-8% across the board without any negotiation. As Governor, he could also eliminate programs and services, with associated layoffs, without negotiating with the unions. Your guess is as good as mine as to what he could have accomplished with negotiations.

I think "2c", replacing highly paid senior workers with junior workers at lower pay, would be impossible with unions in place. Probably an unnecessarily shitty thing to do given the other options available.; 2/18/11, 10:02 AM
Sofa King said...: WEAC.

So they *say.* Do you just blindly believe whatever they tell you? When have they ever *actually* agreed to these measures in actual negotiations? Wasn't just a few months ago that Milwaukee teachers were threatening labor action so they could get Viagra coverage?

Ignore what people or corporations *say.* Pay attention to what they *do.*; 2/18/11, 10:04 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: ...workers should not be "marginalized" ... He said in the letter there is a "moral obligation each of us has to respect the legitimate rights of workers.”

I agree with the Archbishop. Public sector employees are paid directly from the wages of workers. I would think that the workers who, you know, are actually paying the wages of those other workers, have a certain, moral authority on the matter.

I suspect that RV, like many others, don't fully understand where the money to pay public sector employees originates.; 2/18/11, 10:05 AM
SGT Ted said...: Milwaukee Archbishop Jerome E. Listecki on Wednesday said in a letter to lawmakers that workers should not be "marginalized" ... He said in the letter there is a "moral obligation each of us has to respect the legitimate rights of workers.” Another douchenozzle heard from!

Where's the Liberal Outrage at this blatent attempt at Christian Rule? What happened to the calls for separation of Church and State? Why is this X-tian fascist trying to impose his religion on the People of WI?!!!!!eleventy!

Oh this is SOOO easy! Toss me another softball please!; 2/18/11, 10:05 AM
Calypso Facto said...: "2c" is actually one of the biggest problems with school budgets right now, TM. Early retirement was implemented as a cost effective way to cull the most expensive staff, but retirement health care benefit costs (who gets those, btw??) now FAR outweigh the salary savings. Yet WEAC now won't give up the "right" to early retirement.; 2/18/11, 10:07 AM
SGT Ted said...: I am not a civilian public worker because I don't associate with criminal organizations like unions.; 2/18/11, 10:07 AM
Sofa King said...: What about the savings when some union pissant doesn't prevent people in the community from *volunteering* to work in the library or monitor the lunch room?

Stuff like that? You know, that actually lets community members participate in their own community?; 2/18/11, 10:08 AM