With the Senate immobilized, Assembly Republicans decided to act and convened the chamber Tuesday morning.The Democrats were playing games and the Republicans decided to play one of their own. It's not pretty. I'd like to see video of that rushing, shouting, and fist-pumping action. That seems to cross over into something approaching a physical threat.
Democrats launched a filibuster, throwing out dozens of amendments and delivering rambling speeches. Each time Republicans tried to speed up the proceedings, Democrats rose from their seats and wailed that the GOP was stifling them.
Debate had gone on for 60 hours and 15 Democrats were still waiting to speak when the vote started around 1 a.m. Friday. Speaker Pro Tem Bill Kramer, R-Waukesha, opened the roll and closed it within seconds.
Democrats looked around, bewildered. Only 13 of the 38 Democratic members managed to vote in time.
Republicans immediately marched out of the chamber in single file. The Democrats rushed at them, pumping their fists and shouting "Shame!" and "Cowards!"
The Republicans walked past them without responding.
IN THE COMMENTS: 2 commenters — Liz and Jana — come up with the video right away:
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205 comments:
1 – 200 of 205 Newer› Newest»"The Democrats were playing games and the Republicans decided to play one of their own."
What is 'playing games?' Neither side has broken the law. They're both taking advantage of the rules. Why is that playful?
Live by the cheap dirty political trick, die by the cheap dirty political trick.
I wonder if its possible we're looking at a real breakdown in our society between those who insist that the state simply be granted more and more authority and revenue and those who think the state is just getting far to big and intrusive.
Is it possible Wisconsin is the first domino?
Dear Ann,
This is what I've been able to find, courtesy of YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGDp581g9t0
Even the Prime Minister's Questions sessions in British Parliament are more civil than this!
I did see this Youtube vid online, though it's pretty obscured:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGDp581g9t0
Weary Americans are happy they did it.
And, the modern day pols aren't nearly as fun as some of those from the past.
"Shame" "Cowards"
This from a political party that has a majority of its membership camped out in hotel rooms avoiding their responsibilities.
Well, at least it qualifies as an expert opinion.
Nice move by the GOP House members. Now it's all on the Dem senators to do their duty, man up and come back and vote. They can even vote present like their fearless leader Obama was so fond of doing.
I'm a supporter of the Republicans in this effort overall, but surprising the Democrats with the floor vote may backfire if they retaliate by refusing to deal with the real budget issue of closing a $3.6 billion deficit.
By the way, Wisconsin may be sliding in the education metrics, but we're gaining ground in tax burden. Per capita, we pay 11% of our income in state and local taxes, fourth highest in the country (behind only Connecticut, New Jersey, and New York). The actual dollar amount per capita is $3,418, which is only ninth highest.
This is partly due to the previous Democratic administration, which passed a $1.9 billion tax increase with no public hearings and a mere day of debate, ramrodding it past the objections of the Republican minority.
"Shame" and "Cowards" indeed.
There is a TV show called the Biggest Loser where contestants compete to see who can lose the most weight [which is for their own good].
Maybe there should be a show like that for the states and their bloated budgets.
And a show too for U.S. Cabinet members to cut their dept's spending.
The Democrats rushed at them, pumping their fists and shouting "Shame!" and "Cowards!"
"Shame" "Cowards"? Who fled over the border to another state?
Even the Prime Minister's Questions sessions in British Parliament are more civil than this!
I was going to say that I like the raucousness. It seems reminiscent of Britain's parliament... but may be not as strenuous.
I watched that video that Liz referenced, and what are those orange shirts the Dems reps are wearing? They don't even look like they belong in the chamber voting.
Democrats really don't like democracy....do they?
Here's a video from the floor of the chamber:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f0VProvuAo
I'd say it looks more like a childish tantrum than anything approaching a "threat".
Pure class, these folks.
The Republicans pulled a fast one, huh? After 60 hours of debate? Somehow, especially as this is the AP, I doubt it. More to the point, which party is the party of no? The no show Democrats, that's who. But I guess spitting on lawful governance is fine, as long as you're good people.
All the orange garb worn by the chanters in that video makes the whole thing look like a prison uprising.
Thanks for the video link Liz!
I especially enjoy the comments on the YouTube videos that call a voice vote the "tyranny of the majority."
The best way or a bank to make friends is to declare a Free Money Day once a month. The Democrat Legislatures have seen the Congress doing it with Grants and loan guarantees through FHLMC and FNMA, and FDIC with no end in sight...so why cannot States do it too? Easy, just issue State currency and see what it's worth on the market. Municipal Bonds are secured by assets and Res Judicata obligations against subsequent legislatures, yet many are near worthless today. A currency has zero worth because payment can be avoided by a Bankruptcy. That is why States must face the insolvency crisis without use of the the currency games that Congress has played for 50 years. I am curious if the "Shutdown" bluff of the Dems in Congress will fool anyone next week, but after watching the Wisconsin Legislature's rebellion, anything seems possible.
Seriously, everyone of the chanters looks metabolically challenged too.
Not exactly good for their cause.
The Republicans allowed this debate to drone on and on for upwards of sixty hours, a record for the Assembly. Who knows how much longer it would have gone. The vote was going to come sometime. As far as I know nothing illegal was done.
The shouting and fist pumping and yelling is childish and stupid, but nothing physical looked close to happening.
Shame!
Shame, ooh
My mother says you're playing a game
And what you do to me is a
Shame
This is the sort of thing that got us ZeroCare, but it's fascination got see how the Lefties react to a taste of their own medicine.
pbAndj said...
And, the modern day pols aren't nearly as fun as some of those from the past.
I thought he meant Sumner and Brooks.
PS anytime a Democrat yells, "shame", it means he's been beaten at his own game.
Games are so fun, until you get out-played.
These orange shirts are the last gasp of a failing ideology.
"That seems to cross over into something approaching a physical threat."
Ann evidently didn't get the memo. Violence is what the Man with Power does to the victim without it; victims who defend themselves by any means available are engaged in the Fierce Urgency of Patriotic Dissent.
But where the status quo is being upended, as it is in Wisconsin, NJ and elsewhere, it's just the historical norm that the reactionaries who have manipulated the levers of power to extract uneconomic benefits for themselves at the expense of the larger society, will fight back in defense of that set-up.
The decibel level is proof itself that major changes are knocking on the door. The only issue is whether the progressives (that's Team Walker) or the reactionaries (you know who you are) will win.
Democratic majority = democracy
Republican majority = tyranny
LIBERALS
Foisting an alternative reality on the United States for over 100 years.
60 hours of debate wasn't enough time? Really?
Malkin has it at her site--it is quite threatening.
Shame
Words come easy, when they’re true
Words come easy, when they’re true
So I got busy throwing everybody underneath the bus...
What a shame we never listened
I told you through the television
And all that went away was the price we paid
People spend a lifetime this way
And that’s how they stay
Oh what a shame.
Loud chanting "shame" over and over while throwing pointed fingers at their targets make these Dems appear to be religious shamans exercising their powers over the minds of the GOP members. But the GOP guys seemed to be strong and able to make up their own minds and stand up against the the enchanters. Now what can the Dems do???
@PatCA
Just watched it - reminds me of the 'possessed' people from the Donald Sutherland version of 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'.
Democrats - insisting on conformity with their anti-American ideas for over 100 years.
Governor Fucked Up Again promised he would end late night votes as candidate.
"I have two teenagers and I tell them that nothing good happens after midnight. That’s even more true in politics,” he said in a statement. “The people of Wisconsin deserve to know what their elected leaders are voting on.”
Shame
Shame, boatloads of shame
Day after day, more of the same
Blame, please lift it off
Please take it off, please make it stop
After only 60 hours of debate? Why, tht's the most heinous thing since our 12-year rush to war in Iraq!
garage - you look good in orange.
And you are so running out of gas.
You should be embarrassed by your party.
What a bunch of cry babies.
Governor Fucked Up Again promised he would end late night votes as candidate.
Governor Scott won.
Garbage, you lost.
Get ready. Prepare yourself. You're going to lose the entire game.
What is your scam?
@garbage pail
"Governor Fucked Up Again promised he would end late night votes as candidate. "
ROFLMAO!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOXtWxhlsUg
@garage:
So what?
I'm laughing at you, dude. Your little tantrums are enlightening.
It was a "slam, bam, thank you ma'am" vote, over in seconds. Actually, Republicans didn't even stick around long enough to talk to reporters let alone say thanks.
After this only a fool would believe Senate Democrats could expect fair, open, and aboveboard dealings from their Republican colleagues.
LOL!!!
After this only a fool would believe Senate Democrats could expect fair, open, and aboveboard dealings from their Republican colleagues.
Like running away to Illinois to avoid voting?
I'll ask the law professor, what's the likelihood that the Assembly Dems take the video to court to have the roll call vote declared invalid?
at least they actually voted and didn't just deem it passed.
And you are so running out of gas.
You should be embarrassed by your party.
How's that union busting working out for you? Not one state has been able to pass any uniopn busting legislation. Including WI. The problem for you is you picked the wrong state to go first, and most definitely the wrong person in Scott Walker to try it. He is an epic loser, and he surrounded by rank amateurs. He has virtually no support from other Republican governors. You think you're seriously "winning"? LOL
Dems losing at their own game....
"How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?"
I'll ask the law professor, what's the likelihood that the Assembly Dems take the video to court to have the roll call vote declared invalid?
Well, wouldn't that be changing the rules after-the-fact?
wv: cracksor - what the Wisconsin Assembly Dems are feeling right about now
He has virtually no support from other Republican governors. You think you're seriously "winning"? LOL
You mean like Mitch Daniels over in Indiana? What does he care? He was able to end collective bargaining for state employees through executive order ROTFL
I still do not understand what the "trick" was.
Can someone explain?
omg, great vid.
In case anyone is wondering, the orange t-shirts say: "Assembly Democrats Fighting for Working Families."
Here's a photostream of the debate:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2011/02/19/GA2011021900272.html?sid=ST2011022503108#photo=1
Stop banging your rattle on the playpen and sit down Garage....
I still do not understand what the "trick" was.
Can someone explain?
They used the rules - the democrats never thought of that.
Shark
Can you name me one sitting Republican governor that supports Walker's collective bargaining stripping provision?
Garage amazingly enough is inadvertently right. If the republicans are going to do the time they might as well commit the crime. They should have gone all the way and banned civil service unions for state and local employees and pass a right to work statue. Governor Walker and the WI republican state legislature did screw up.
Garage don't worry yourself to much, the republican congress and president in 2013 will pass a national right to work act and repeal the Davis-bacon Act and rescind the presidential order allowing federal employee unions. Hell if the country is really luck they might even refuse to enforce the Wagner Act.
Not one state has been able to pass any uniopn busting legislation. Including WI.
Hey dumbshit - Right to work law passed in 22 states.
"Well, wouldn't that be changing the rules after-the-fact?"
You don't think there's an existing rule against not recognizing legislators in roll call?
That's why I'm asking the law professor. Seems to me that it's possible that the next step would be for everyone to go home, get some sleep, and then head to court in the afternoon. Which puts us right back at square one.
Garage don't worry yourself to much, the republican congress and president in 2013 will pass a national right to work act and repeal the Davis-bacon Act and rescind the presidential order allowing federal employee unions. Hell if the country is really luck they might even refuse to enforce the Wagner Act.
One can dream the impossible dream?
Can you name me one sitting Republican governor that supports Walker's collective bargaining stripping provision?
Has nothing to do with anything, garbage.
You keep trying to divert the issue from WI.
But, then, you're a scam artist.
surprising the Democrats with the floor vote may backfire if they retaliate by refusing to deal with the real budget issue of closing a $3.6 billion deficit.
I doubt it. So long as they are reasonably united, Republicans don't actually need the Democrats in the assembly at all.
The whole 60-hour spectacle was not actually required at all, it was entirely a courtesy on the part of the Republicans.
@garage.... who cares what the other governors think? What difference would it make if they all supported him?
Shark
Can you name me one sitting Republican governor that supports Walker's collective bargaining stripping provision?
How about more than one? You know, like the Republican Governor's Association? Or, because I couldn't name only 'one', it doesn't count?
Oh my God, the Democrats are such drama queens and children. There's not a real thinker amongst them in any of those videos, just a lot of passionate posing. It's truly amazing to behold.
How's that union busting working out for you?
Not union busting, public employee union busting.
Let's be clear, Garage.
"I doubt it. So long as they are reasonably united, Republicans don't actually need the Democrats in the assembly at all."
That's undoubtedly true.
But, with Obamacare, there are dangers to pushing ahead without at least a little bipartisan support. At least if you don't want to deal with a continuous cycle of rancor, protests, etc. for the forseeable future.
@garage:
Bob McDonnell of Virginia.
This is too easy.
garage mahal said...
Governor Fucked Up Again promised he would end late night votes as candidate.
Garage, you cool black hipster daddio solid bro from Africa or somewhere, he kept his promise. The vote was early in the morning.
Wait 'til you see what they do next. The entire Republican delegation in the Wisconsin Senate is going to be bussed to Illinois, and they are going to lock 4 democrats in the crapper at the Tilted Kilt. Then all the Republicans are going to come in through a window, declare a quorum, and vote on the bill. Then they are all going to go to Chicago and have dinner with Rahm Emmanuel and send the bill to the Koch brothers. Not sure if Rahm will show, but there will be a seat for him. And one for Blago too.
Really, this is true.
It was a "slam, bam, thank you ma'am" vote, over in seconds
...preceded by 60 hours straight of debates and votes on any amendment Dems cared to bring to the floor.
"Slam bam thank you ma'am" indeed.
For Pete's sake, you crybabies are pathetic whiny liars-by-omission.
Isn't Mitch Daniels on board with union busting?
Isn't Sarah Palin supporting Scott Walker?
Can you imagine if Princess Sarah came to Madison. Talk about stirring up a hornets' nest!
@garage/Baghdad Bob:
I'm still laughing at you. Comedy gold.
Garage, you cool black hipster daddio solid bro from Africa or somewhere, he kept his promise. The vote was early in the morning.
And Republicans literally ran out of the building. Walker doesn't nearly enough the chops needed to pull this off, and it will be delicious watching him self implode. I just wonder how long wavering Republicans will continue to take the sword for this douchebag. He's pretty much the laughingstock of the nation right now. There are protests all over the state, many around the country, and a crowd of 100k is expected here tomorrow.
If this was a wham, bam thank you Ma'am vote, it was preceded by the longest foreplay in history.
There are protests all over the state, many around the country, and a crowd of 100k is expected here tomorrow.
This will certainly overturn the election that gave Republicans control of the House, Senate and Governorship in Wisconsin, right garbage?
I get it. You keep insisting the election doesn't matter.
Remember what Obama said: "I won!"
Choke on it, garbage
Hopefully the protests will continue for years. Manned entirely by the laid off Public Employee Union shirkers who got WI into this mess to begin with. Let them wave their signs until the cows come home, at least they won't be sucking up taxpayer money while they're doing it.
garage mahal said...
Governor Fucked Up Again promised he would end late night votes as candidate.
Hysterical.
You do realize he doesn't run the state legislature, right?
Can you just go back to posting how he will be "defeated" and"recalled" ?
@garage/Baghdad Bob:
So, just in that RGA posting, you've got Rick Perry, Bob McDonnell, Haley Barbour and Bobby Jindal supporting Scott Walker.
That enough for you?
How's that union busting working out for you?
Pretty well so far. :)
Pretty well so far. :)
As far as results go, what ya got so far?
garage - that's like asking why hasn't the 6th army surrendered yet. It's only December 1942.
The great chessmaster Aron Nimzovich said that "the threat is greater than its execution". As long as the legislators were afraid of the unions, the unions could call the tune. Once the unions unleashed their demonstrations and sickouts, the legislators realized that they could survive. This same scenario played out in NJ and we know how that turned out for the teachers's union.
The unions' dilemma is that their intimidation did not work in NJ and will likely not work in WI. They're all in, and retreat is not an option. They will fight until they're done for.
The mask certainly came off last night to reveal the face of the goon squad underneath.
The cowardice is on the Dems who feared ever to permit a vote. And the shame is on those who cower in Illinois to thwart our elected government.
At least the 60s left had a cool sense of style. The best the SEIU and the WI Dems can come up with are boldly colored T-shirts, purple and orange respectively. Pathetic.
Bi-Coloured-Python-Rock-Snake, your link is the more interesting video. It's interesting to see comments over there fill up by the second.
Finally! This nonsense has become interesting.
The power of the union is not in public demonstrations. It makes a point, but it ultimately won't matter.
The power of the union is in economic boycotts and other forms of economic disruption. Whether they're committed enough to do that is an open question, but the idea that once legislation passes means that "it's all over" is naive.
garage, there's also Pawlenty.
You don't think there's an existing rule against not recognizing legislators in roll call?
I don't see anything in Assembly Rule 76 requiring the voting to continue for a particular length of time.
Robert R-
I think Bluto Blutarsky said it better - "What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"
The unions are no Bluto Blutarsky.
Yah, the Dem plan was to sabotage the vote using procedural tricks. They get outplayed and immediately start whining about the "unfairness" of it all.
What a bunch of losers.
"Can you name me one sitting Republican governor that supports Walker's collective bargaining stripping provision?"
Kasich. He might not be able to pass the same sort of thing in Ohio, but he has vocally supported it and is attempting to pass similar legislation.
Yah, the Dem plan was to sabotage the vote using procedural tricks.
I disagree. They knew all along that their extended "debate" was purely a courtesy of the majority. Their plan was to force the majority to end it at some point, and then complain that their debate was cut off. They knew they could not stop the bill from being passed, they just wanted to become a "victim" along the way.
Qualye: Not union busting, public employee union busting. Let's be clear, Garage.
Almost but not quite.
Liberals can only comprehend arguments that fit on a bumpersticker. Your 9 syllables is a tad too much for them.
@ Sofa - yes, your analysis is more precise. Thats exactly what they intended.
There real error here is calling what they did for 60 hours "debate". It was nothing of the sort; rather it was 60 hours of posturing.
My state assembly representative went to Madison and all I got was a picture of the moron in an orange t-shirt.
"I don't see anything in Assembly Rule 76 requiring the voting to continue for a particular length of time."
And I don't see anything in the rules that gives discretion for not recognizing legislators that are clearly present either.
Which is again a question I have for the law professor.
There's a deadline coming up for refinancing that really puts it all on the line. For both sides. That's the outside force that is going to force a compromise or capituation. I don't expect anything more than posturing until Monday.
lol David.
You nailed it Sofa. This tantrum was their plan all along, because there was no other possible outcome - only a question of when. 60 hours seems a little too generous from the Repubs if you ask me, but as you can see it didn't matter how long they gave them.
Wisconsin's Politico is also forgetting Mitch Daniels, who decertified Indiana's public-sector unions the day he took office. You may recall how this made him such a national laughingstock that he's now widely talked about as a possible Presidential contender.
Physical threat? Really? You truly are a ridiculous clown of a person.
@David
Great stuff...
@Bushman
There's gotta be some sharp marketing guy out there...
"There are protests all over the state, many around the country, and a crowd of 100k is expected here tomorrow."
So. Since when have "protests" stopped a major political effort?
Did the TEA Party protests stop Obamacare?
Did the hundreds of thousand who protested the Iraq War before it started stop it?
How about "comprehensive immigration reform"? There were mass protests several times in the last decade. When did it pass?
Did all the "nuclear free zones" and anti-missile protests in the 1980s stop the missile build up in Europe?
People protested the Vietnam War for years to little effect. They protested Johnson and got Nixon. They protested Nixon and he won re-election in a 49 state landslide over a peace candidate.
You have to go back until the Civil Rights era to find a significant success and that took years too. If the protests were directed solely against Southern sttaes, they never would have worked. Fortunately, the Northern/Western majority was around to overrule the South.
Mass protests are so over-rated.
@Garage: Admit it. This whole thing could have been played out with aplomb. Instead it's turned out like a bomb.
THIS IS WHAT MOB MENTALITY LOOKS LIKE!
(Sorry for the caps, but it was necessary to capture the bellicose nature of the 'protestors'.)
WV: innesti - The act of hiding out of state at an inn to avoid a quorum.
Democrats are truly frightening.
And I don't see anything in the rules that gives discretion for not recognizing legislators that are clearly present either.
Who wasn't recognized? What are you referring to? They vote by pressing the buttons on their desks. There is no reading of the names unless the machine is out of order.
I agree protests don't really work.
Boycotts do work though. Which shows that the union leadership isn't too sharp as that hasn't been on the table yet.
"...from Wisconsin — where everything's happening."
And didn't that Dylan guy write some songs about the times a blowing in the changing wind, or something?
The orange tee-shirts are a safety measure. All those demented Democrats wondering the streets need plenty of visibility, tending as they do to stray into oncoming traffic.
"Who wasn't recognized? What are you referring to? They vote by pressing the buttons on their desks. "
So what you're telling me is that calling of the rolls is a little like Jeopardy and no humans are involved? I think there's certainly something to the charge that the roll call was carried out improperly, albeit I'm asking the law professor to chime in.
Don't get me wrong, I think this is all political theater. And it won't get resolved by any of these antics. From either side. The upcoming refinancing deadline is going to be the 800 lb. gorilla that gets things done. And it's incumbent on both sides to do what they have to do to come to a compromise so that they meet that deadline.
Democrats looked around, bewildered. Only 13 of the 38 Democratic members managed to vote in time.
You have to go to a different article to find out they lost 51-17. The bewildered would have made no difference.
So when is the general strike and boycotts?
Garage;
Can you name me one sitting Republican governor that supports Walker's collective bargaining stripping provision?
Well I can think of three Republican governors (and one Democratic one) who can't/don't want to allow collective bargaining, based on this map.
And after watching the NewsHour last night I can think of one Democratic State Treasurer (in a very Democratic state) who's having great misgivings about the whole Public Employee pension system/financial state. YMMV
In case anyone is wondering, the orange t-shirts say: "Assembly Democrats Fighting for Working Families."
Huh.
"Working families" doesn't mean what they think it means.
They should say "Democrats fighting for unions; screwing over working families as usual"
Don't get me wrong, I think this is all political theater. And it won't get resolved by any of these antics. From either side. The upcoming refinancing deadline is going to be the 800 lb. gorilla that gets things done. And it's incumbent on both sides to do what they have to do to come to a compromise so that they meet that deadline.
Wrong. WE won.
What a bunch of juvenile idiots.
"Blogger Robert R. said...
I agree protests don't really work.
Boycotts do work though. Which shows that the union leadership isn't too sharp as that hasn't been on the table yet.
2/25/11 1:09 PM"
Perfect. Let's get the union members to boycott government jobs. Problem solved.
We all lose if the refinancing deadline isn't met. That's a mutual suicide pact.
That looked like a music video.
Begging for a remix.
Wrong. WE won.
technically alex, you're only on the winning side on odd numbered days.
I'm happy to see garage finally got a job. But since only the top trollers make good money we should consider a charity fund.
And it's incumbent on both sides to do what they have to do to come to a compromise so that they meet that deadline.
Nah. The winners don't have to compromise at all. At least, that's what I kept hearing for the past few years since Obama got elected.
The democrats are lucky they got to find out what was in this bill BEFORE it got voted on.
Frankly, the Democrats can come back and do their jobs, thereby saving thousands of their constituents' jobs, or they can stay gone, and a whole shitload of their constituents will be out of work. Period.
Just my opinion, but I, along with millions of others, am sick to death of being held hostage by special interest groups like unions, and also sick of being the only 'side' that is expected to compromise.
The orange t-shirts were a mistake. Looks like they just returned from community softball league practice.
In case anyone is wondering, the orange t-shirts say: "Assembly Democrats Fighting for Working Families."
This part always pisses me off.
As if the only working families that count are Union families.
Sorry to burst their bubble. Attention Dems and Union Drones, there are many many many more families across the country that are WORKING. In fact....we outnumber you mightily.
Some of these NON union families are working two and even three jobs to get by. They don't have pensions, health insurance paid for by their employers. They don't have job security.
You can take that Working Families bullshit and stuff it up your ass.
Freeman:
If Titus or Trooper York was here, they'd say the absolute shame were the orange shirts.
"Begging for a remix."
Yes, but which song?
"Nah. The winners don't have to compromise at all. At least, that's what I kept hearing for the past few years since Obama got elected."
The problem with that attitude, is that the consequence to doing nothing is very bad and tangible. With no repeal possible.
The refinancing fails to go through, and the State of Wisconsin taxpayers are screwed. Not in a couple of years, but now.
DBQ:
Unless you are a working American, you must shut your mouth or so says the many elected Dem pols who never had a job cause many went straight from law school to the state legislature etc with some taking a detour for community organizing.
The GOP could have ended debate on this bill at any time. The fact that they allowed the Dems to spew their drivel for 60 hours straight, on top of a 17 hour hearing, along with going through 80+ redundant amendments showed more restraint than I would have shown.
Fewer union dues = fewer unions = less Democrat money. Thats the only thing they are concerned about. And dont let a Dem tell you different.
"Rules" and "compromise" only matter when they are in the minority. When they are in the majority, then its "elections have consequences".
If this bill is so bad and so unpopular as the Dems claim, run on it in the next election. I dare them to.
The problem with that attitude, is that the consequence to doing nothing is very bad and tangible. With no repeal possible.
The refinancing fails to go through, and the State of Wisconsin taxpayers are screwed. Not in a couple of years, but now.
Actually, they'll be able to refi by laying off a bunch of public employees, if I'm not mistaken. Walker and the GOP are actually trying to avoid that.
deborah said...
Yes, but which song?
Agent Orange, Seek & Destroy
Fewer union dues = fewer unions = less Democrat money. Thats the only thing they are concerned about. And dont let a Republican tell you different.
Applies too.
If this was just about money, it would be over by now. The union has already said that they'd accept the wage and benefits concessions. Probably because they're forced to, but the financial battle is won.
Heck, more can be gotten by including the police, state troopers, and fire unions. And, probably should be gotten as local taxes matter too.
But, frankly, this ideological battle of unions vs. GOP doesn't do anything for my pocketbook if they miss the refinancing deadline. There are forces greater than politics and several of those are fast approaching.
In fact, it took me a while to figure out that the orange-shirted people really were legislators and not protesters who had somehow made it to the floor.
In fact, it took me a while to figure out that the orange-shirted people really were legislators and not protesters who had somehow made it to the floor.
Is there any difference? They both suck at the government teat, and demand more more more, and then get all pissy when the milk stops flowing...
"Actually, they'll be able to refi by laying off a bunch of public employees, if I'm not mistaken. Walker and the GOP are actually trying to avoid that."
No. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel estimates that Walker can only find about $30 million worth of savings via layoffs vs. $165 million that can be freed up if the bond deadline is met.
The good news is that the pressure is on both sides to make a deal, but missing that deadline is a disaster.
If you're not complaining about the Senators vacationing filibuster, part of the rules, I don't see how you can complain about a rushed vote, also part of the rules.
The Republicans did their jobs and behaved with decorum. The Democrats tried to derail the legislative process and had a hissy fit when they didn't get their way. Would that be a fair assessment?
No. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel estimates that Walker can only find about $30 million worth of savings via layoffs vs. $165 million that can be freed up if the bond deadline is met.
Oh, well. I guess the list of those to be laid off might have to grow.
The Queen - "That seems to cross over into something approaching a physical threat."
Get real.
You're an idiot.
If this was just about money, it would be over by now. The union has already said that they'd accept the wage and benefits concessions. Probably because they're forced to, but the financial battle is won.
Really? Do you just swallow, hook, line, and sinker, whatever the union leadership says? You can't really be that gullible, can you?
If you're not complaining about the Senators vacationing filibuster, part of the rules,
How so? The rules require them to attend. The missing senators are doing nothing less than holding the legislature hostage until their fringe minority demands are met. At this point, we can't afford to give in to them, or else the tactic will be legitimized and we will surely see even more of this in the future.
"At this point, we can't afford to give in to them, or else the tactic will be legitimized and we will surely see even more of this in the future."
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Spot on.
If this tactic is allowed to work, then minority parties all over the country, GOP and Dem, will just pull this shit every time and effectively shut down their government if they get their way.
The minority does have rights in a legislative body. But one of them is NOT to get your own way whenever you want. Thats why we have elections.
I stand by my previous comment...if the Dems think this bill is so unpopular and so hated throughout the state, then make it your platform in the next election and you should sweep into the majority again. But most level-headed people know that isnt the case, no matter how much the Dems whine.
"Really? Do you just swallow, hook, line, and sinker, whatever the union leadership says? You can't really be that gullible, can you?"
Union leadership doesn't matter. The lines have been created. Dems have said they'll come back if the union busting provisions are removed. If cost savings are what matters, you offer the deal and call the Dem's/Union's bluff.
Since Walker hasn't done it, I presume it's because the cost savings aren't his main objective.
Ultimately, I expect that a deal will be cut. I can think of $135 million reasons for it. That's the practical solution. If that deadline isn't met, then it's politics over fiscal responsibility.
Excellent, chickelit!
Freeman...I didn't realize they were legislators...WOW.
Jeremy wrote: (to DBQ) Get real. You're an idiot.
The discourse on this blog is evidently way over your head. Best run along now, kid. Grownups at work.
I'm proud to have grown up in Waukesha County about 3 miles east of the town/city of Waukesha. Our grade school team played St. Joes and our high school team Waukesha Memorial---beat 'em both times, if I recall. Gov. Walker is a Tosan, where we moved when I was 8. So between Assemblyman Kramer & Scott Walker, I'm proud to be associated with union-busting [as long as they're public service and not public safety] unions with their symbiotic relationship with the CORRUPT Demonrat Party of Wisconsin.
I was a union member when I worked at Schlitz for three summers during grad school, and those kind of unions I do like.
"Union leadership doesn't matter. The lines have been created. Dems have said they'll come back if the union busting provisions are removed. If cost savings are what matters, you offer the deal and call the Dem's/Union's bluff. "
----------------------------
Removing the collective bargaining provision is instrumental to Walker's cost savings. If local municipalities and school boards cant collectively bargain like they are doing at the state level, those entities are either
a) going to go broke,
b) have to make monumental cuts in basic services, or
c) have to lay massive amounts of people off.
If collective bargaining remains, all these unions will do is hold the locals and school boards hostage until their demands are met. And with the huge cuts in state aid that are coming from Walker's budget announcement next week, there is no way for them to be solvent and at the same time provide the necessary services.
"Get up, stand up. Stand up for your rights. Get up, Stand up. Don't give up the fight."
"If this was just about money, it would be over by now. The union has already said that they'd accept the wage and benefits concessions. Probably because they're forced to, but the financial battle is won."
I wonder why people keep saying this. Union power is used to drive up employer costs. It has no other purpose in an industry without safety concerns.
In case anyone is wondering, the orange t-shirts say: "Assembly Democrats Fighting for Working Families."
Where in that is the word "union"? This bill was about way more than collective bargaining - enough to affect most of the working families of this state (a note, this partial union family is working three jobs to get by. So, I get what that's like. Believe me, it's not all sunshine and balloons over here).
I'd like to add that this is mostly on the spineless pols out there trying to win over two opposing sets of voters. For the public union members - we got future payment benefits and for the taxpayers (union and non-union, alike) - they neglected to fund them (with promises to keep taxes lower). We all got played. The whole scam got revealed when the economy collapsed and revenues stopped coming in to cover their bets.
So, the party wearing the uniforms to denote their one-mindedness - they're the open-minded ones right?
Yeah, Don't Tread, they kind of look like union zombies!
Remix: It's a Dead Man's Party...Oingo Boingo.
If cost savings are what matters, you offer the deal and call the Dem's/Union's bluff.
Or else what? Suppose Walker agrees to this and then the locals decide to renege and hold the schools hostage, as they always have and surely will continue to. What then? Are we supposed to assume that THEN the Democrats WON'T skip town we he tries to pass the exact same legislation? Again, you aren't really that gullible, are you?
The only "concession" that the unions have offered is, "trust us." Newsflash, they squandered every iota of trust a long time ago.
I didn't know whole families worked as part of a union.
This doesn't make sense because I was told by the yellers and screamers that it was unions that ended child labor. Did they collectively bargain the right to keep it so their leaders get more union dues?
"It was a "slam, bam, thank you ma'am" vote, over in seconds
...preceded by 60 hours straight of debates and votes on any amendment Dems cared to bring to the floor."
That's 60 hours of foreplay. I think that's enough.
wv: thustel-Republicans are dancing-Do the Hustle!
I watched the video and did not see my Democratic representative in an orange shirt anywhere! Oh that's right. He was defeated last November.
Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity are members of the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (AFTRA), an AFL-CIO union.
I guess unions are only bad when someone isn't a multi-millionaire.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116940098.html
It looks like the Dems are considering a legal challenge to the vote.
I really do wish that someone with legal expertise would weigh in. I've no idea of the merits, but in general the idea that you can end a roll call vote with legislators in the chamber seems to me a gray area.
Looks like the Republicans are all BAD JEWS now. Looks like they are doing NOTHING TO HEAL THE PLANET!
Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity are members of the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (AFTRA), an AFL-CIO union.
Is AFTRA a public employee union? No, it isn't, thus totally irrelevant to anything happening in Wisconsin.
I really do wish that someone with legal expertise would weigh in. I've no idea of the merits, but in general the idea that you can end a roll call vote with legislators in the chamber seems to me a gray area.
They haven't stated the basis on which they plan to object, so it's impossible to comment on the merits of those objections.
If cost savings are what matters, you offer the deal and call the Dem's/Union's bluff.
Since Walker hasn't done it, I presume it's because the cost savings aren't his main objective
You only get there by pretending the collective bargaining restrictions aren't budget related.
And the Unions have NOT agreed to start collecting their own dues, or to recertify:
1) Mr. Walker would require that public-employee unions be recertified annually by a majority vote of all their members, not merely by a majority of those that choose to cast ballots.
2) In addition, he would end the government's practice of automatically deducting union dues from employee paychecks.
Show me where the Unions have agreed those 2 provisions.
We all lose if the refinancing deadline isn't met. That's a mutual suicide pact.
No. Think of it as Chemo instead.
"It looks like the Dems are considering a legal challenge to the vote."
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As usual...if Dems dont win at the election box, they try to win in the courts.
If they wanted to push a legal challenge, they would have done it today. There was nothing "illegal" about what the GOP assembly did last night, and the Dems know it. The GOP, as the majority, controls everything surrounding the debate...from what is introduced to how long it is introduced to when it gets voted on.
The Dems can hem and haw all they want...but the fact that the GOP called for a vote before all Dems were finished with their "speeches" is irrelevant.
"Union leadership doesn't matter. The lines have been created. Dems have said they'll come back if the union busting provisions are removed. If cost savings are what matters, you offer the deal and call the Dem's/Union's bluff."
But how do you hold them to it once they aren't afraid of you any more? Once their strangle-hold on every area of "bargaining" is safe again, why should a "bluff" called result in any changes at all?
"Since Walker hasn't done it, I presume it's because the cost savings aren't his main objective."
Or he realizes that all of those now being "reasonable" are only reasonable after the pressure was on, and fully expects them to revert to old habits more or less immediately which means doing this all again and again. Maybe his "main objective" is to actually fix the problem.
I betcha Rush and Beck pay their own union dues and actually have a choice of belonging or not.
"I guess unions are only bad when someone isn't a multi-millionaire."
Silly Matt. Unions are only bad when they serve no purpose but their own continued existence. Are public unions there yet? Maybe, maybe not. But the idea that they would be "busted" if public employees had to actually vote to have them or pay their own dues suggests that they're getting pretty close to that point.
"1) Mr. Walker would require that public-employee unions be recertified annually by a majority vote of all their members, not merely by a majority of those that choose to cast ballots.
2) In addition, he would end the government's practice of automatically deducting union dues from employee paychecks.
Show me where the Unions have agreed those 2 provisions. "
They haven't. And I never said they did agree to those non-fiscal givebacks.
Show me where those two provisions amount to any cost savings to the taxpayer.
Keep the wage and benefit cuts. Heck, expand them to police, state troopers, and firefighters. Toss out the items that aren't direct fiscal items, like recertifying on a yearly basis, and there's room to declare it a solid fiscal win.
Or both parties can drive over a cliff next week and miss the deadline for refinancing.
"Show me where those two provisions amount to any cost savings to the taxpayer"
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Fewer people in the union = less power the union has over a local municipality and/or school district, which means taxpayer money is saved with lower salaries and benefits for union employees.
I CERTAINLY DO HOPE that the fleabagger Democrat Senators declare all those meals and hotel expenses they are getting for free down there in Illinois. Goodness me that must be expensive.
The orange t-shirts were a mistake. Looks like they just returned from community softball league practice.
I was thinking pretty much the same thing. It makes them look totally unprofessional.
Suits, people. Suits.
"I wonder if its possible we're looking at a real breakdown in our society between those who insist that the state simply be granted more and more authority and revenue and those who think the state is just getting far to big and intrusive."
I would characterize it as the difference between give-us-health-wealth-and-wisdom and do-your-job-!-.
It looks like the Dems are considering a legal challenge to the vote.
Hysterical.
Yes, because a court can now meddle in the inner workings of the legislature.
You people are beyond parody.
I wonder if its possible we're looking at a real breakdown in our society between those who insist that the state simply be granted more and more authority and revenue and those who think the state is just getting far to big and intrusive.
Yes. There are people who think Obamacare doesn't go far *enough.*
Suits, people. Suits.
Dude, suits are so like totally right wing!
Yes, union folks, I second DBQ. Stuff it up your fat asses. At one time you protected real workers from real bosses who wanted them to work longer for less pay. Now you represent yourselves and pretend to protect public service members from the fucking government. HAHAHAHAHAHA Man, that government is b.a.d.
That looked like a music video.
Begging for a remix.
Oh yeah, auto-tune the news.
How embarrassing for Wisconsin, I'm glad those aren't my representatives.
Can I just say... that this is one of the most thoughtful and mature comments threads anywhere on the internets.
I like Chickie's Agent Orange link, BTW. Much better than the original version, IMO.
The lines have been created. Dems have said they'll come back if the union busting provisions are removed. If cost savings are what matters, you offer the deal and call the Dem's/Union's bluff. .
There are NO union busting provisions.
1. People are free to continue to pay their union dues. The State is just not going to be collecting them anymore.
And MORE importantly, people will be allowed to chose if they want to be in the union instead of being forced. Many other States are 'right to work'. California is one of them and you can see how strong the unions are in that State.
2. The Unions are to be voted upon each year to determine if the employees want to continue with the Union.
3. Re #1 & #2 if the Union is providing a valuable service to the members then they will continue to pay their dues and to vote to have the Union continue. If not. Then tough shit.
4. The Unions can still negotiate salaries with the various government agencies.
5. Removing the collective bargaining for benefits and pensions and perks like time off, sick time, vacations, tenure, not allowing bad teachers, crappy workers to be fired etc etc etc. THOSE are the things that are breaking the various local Districts and local governments.
If the Unions want to have their members be able to CONTINUE to have jobs, then they need to allow the Districts to be able to make budgets and make decisions appropriate to EACH individual agency.
It is all about being able to control costs at the local area.
The unions gave in a little bit right now.....however, with future extortion, I mean collective bargaining, they will just take back every cost savings by using the same thuggish tactics.
I think they should just fire every last one of them and start all over again, by rehiring the good workers and good employees.
The Republicans cannot give in on this issue or we will never be able to control costs and America as we know it will be gone, replaced by a gigantic burdensome bureaucracy where the tax payers become slaves to the privileged government workers.
"Fewer people in the union = less power the union has over a local municipality and/or school district, which means taxpayer money is saved with lower salaries and benefits for union employees."
Or it could make precisely zero difference. There's no guarantee of any savings for a variety of reasons, including the fact that there are direct comparisons with the private sector for many state employees, nurses, highway workers, technical staff, and you have to be competitive.
I'd rather police, state troopers, and fire fighters be included. That would make a difference to the bottom line and save tax payers more.
The idea that there is only one way to balance the budget is silly. As well as the idea that the art of compromise is a sign of weakness. Plenty of deals get made everyday in the business world without someone having to thump their chest and declare "we won".
This linked video from PJ Media TV via Instapundit is outstanding: link
DBQ,
Don't insult my intelligence.
If the goal isn't to bust the union, why is the provision of the State not collecting dues in the bill? Why does the State care how dues are collected, period?
The Union is free to decertify at any time. Always has been. Why does that need to change? Other than as a backdoor way to force the issue.
You can twist yourself into logic pretzels all you want, but you also have scores of cheerleaders right here portraying this as exactly what it is.
Walker is using the bill as a way to weaken/bust the public employee union in addition to controlling costs. He's not really denying it, either. So, why not be honest about it.
Well, I just followed the link to the AP story, and this paragraph no longer appears:
Democrats launched a filibuster, throwing out dozens of amendments and delivering rambling speeches. Each time Republicans tried to speed up the proceedings, Democrats rose from their seats and wailed that the GOP was stifling them.
Any guesses why it got pulled????
Walker is using the bill as a way to weaken/bust the public employee union in addition to controlling costs. He's not really denying it, either. So, why not be honest about it.
Weaken/bust is kind of a funny formulation...which is it? You do realize the two words aren't synonyms?
OK here's a fun video of the Wisconsin Shame with the proper party atmosphere
The idea that there is only one way to balance the budget is silly.
Whoever said there was only one way to balance a state budget?
In Illinois they're raising taxes and cutting services that are delivered by contractors. It's not clear to that their approach is clearly superior to Walker's, though.
"OBAMA: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I'm in the White House, I'll put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself. I'll walk on that picket line with you as president of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody's standing in their corner."
"RUSH: Anybody seen him in Wisconsin? Has anybody seen him with any comfortable shoes on marching? I haven't."
Under the bus you go!
Or it could make precisely zero difference. There's no guarantee of any savings for a variety of reasons,
Yes, this "variety of reasons" mainly include the fact that your head is in the sand.
Collective bargaining is the reason most Wisconsin school districts buy health coverage from a company created by the Wisconsin Education Association — even though their premiums cost far more than competing carriers.
For example.
"Weaken/bust is kind of a funny formulation...which is it? You do realize the two words aren't synonyms?"
You're right, but it's the distinction between murder and attempted murder. Walker hopes that the proposal ultimately busts the union, but he certainly won't complain if it's weakened.
I've said many times, that I don't think the bill goes far enough because it excludes certain groups. But there isn't a bit of direct budget savings in the "due collection" or "annual certification elections" provisions. Frankly, given the ruckus, at this point I think the latter is at best a symbolic victory at this point even if it passes. It's an item to compromise on that won't cost anything practically.
Make no mistake, I think Walker has already won provided he meets the refinancing deadline. Frankly, I think he could net a bigger victory if he "compromises" and includes the other public sector employees. The only way to really lose at this point is to miss the refinancing deadline as the argument has shifted so far over to his side.
Lots of people argue as though others necessarily think it a negative if a public sector union gets busted.
Not so, not so.
RUSH: We asked a question at the top of the hour based on the sound bite from Obama 2007. He pledged to walk with anybody trying to break the unions. Okay, why is he not in Wisconsin? He's come out in favor of the unions. Why didn't he go there? Why hasn't he walked the union picket lines in Wisconsin as he promised? Folks, it's not separation of powers. It's not a president inserting himself. You know he doesn't care about that. It is as I just said, Wisconsin's a swing state. It's a battleground state, and if Obama loses Wisconsin his reelection chances dim considerably. So Obama not being there, don't doubt me on this, Obama not being in Wisconsin and not really weighing in on it a whole lot anymore proves that what the Governor Scott Walker is doing is wildly popular with voters in Wisconsin right now. If the polls showed that the voters in Wisconsin were against Walker, Obama would be there with bells on....
"If the goal isn't to bust the union, why is the provision of the State not collecting dues in the bill? Why does the State care how dues are collected, period?"
You might want to rethink juxtaposing those two questions. Since the state shouldn't care how the dues are collected, then it makes sense that the state shouldn't be doing the collecting.
As the system currently exists in non-right-to-work states, it is a very short step to simply require union members to vote for Democrats.
Walker hopes that the proposal ultimately busts the union
Bullshit.
ut there isn't a bit of direct budget savings in the "due collection"
I'm sorry, but the state should not be in the business of collecting anyone's dues of any sort.
Or it could make precisely zero difference.
The only way it could make zero difference is if it doesn't actually result in the state spending less on benefits for union members.
Simply put -- either it saves the state money, or it does no harm. There is no downside for the people of Wisconsin.
I am all for closing the budget gap and people paying their fair share but man this Walker and these Wisconsin Republicans are making us look bad. Between that tape of Walker toadying to David Koch and talking about how they were thinking about hiring trouble makers to go into the protest crowds and the video of this vote where the speaker is yelling and talking fast it makes it look like they are auctioning off the state.
Why not just take the money the unions said they would pony up? Not quite sure why they have to make us look so sleazy when we already have what we asked for.
And god I just can't get that tape out of my head. Its just bizarre! Thats like what liberal whackos say all republicans are like.
At least 4 republicans voted no on this so they can't say we are all like that,
Orange and purple shirts? So Wisconsin Democrats are all graduates of Clemson? Who knew?
I think Democrats deep down inside believe that there's some obscure clause in the various state constitutions saying that only Democrats are allowed to do cheap political tricks.
People act like unions are an automatic "good". Like salvation through Jesus Christ or something. And that it's necessary for government, not just to allow unions, but to support unions just because they're unions. Help them out.
Hold their hand.
Collect their dues for them.
Require membership if someone even wants to work in certain jobs.
Jobs that the state is required by law to support with no option to pick a different supplier or to simply quit because staying in business is just too expensive anymore.
And taxpayers pay for their own screwing. But we're supposed to be on the side of The People and cheering for The Workers.
And hold their hand.
And collect their dues.
And require membership in their union.
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