***
And may I just add that I find the attacks on the Chamber of Commerce incredibly, absurdly out-of-touch with ordinary Americans. Not that I'm an expert on the mind of the ordinary Americans. I've been confined to the remote outpost of Madison, Wisconsin since the 1980s. But I do not believe that demonizing something as dull-sounding as the Chamber of Commerce is going to make any sense to people. The idea that the Chamber of Commerce is ruining America sounds like something a nutty conspiracy theorist would say.
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148 comments:
The idea that the Chamber of Commerce is ruining America sounds like something a nutty conspiracy theorist would say.
Turns out it is.
"The idea that the Chamber of Commerce is ruining America sounds like something a nutty conspiracy theorist would say."
It is something a nutty conspiracy theorist would say.
But Ann, remember - who is the audience for these quotes? The best and the brightest (or, if they were Republican, howling red meat eating racists). These are the Obama true beleivers who *know* they are the educated and perceive the reality of the situation.
Its an irritant that the unwashed public has get involved. The clingers...
The Builder-Burghers at the C of C.
So Americans are too dumb to evaluate an allegation and think about it for two seconds, you're saying.
Why can't they simply say where they are getting their money? They should have nothing to be afraid of, if they are so bland and respectable.
He just can't help himself.
As a corollary I'm anticipating after the great Democrat Debacle of 2010 a repeat of those articles from the NYT about how certain left of center voters just don't understand the American electorate and maybe they should move to Canada
The Democratic leadership has to stop denigrating the American public, or at least speaking condescendingly toward them (i.e. They'll like it once its implemented read as I know this is too complicated for you all. Don't you worry your pretty little heads. Let the experts handle the complicated policy stuff. It will all be fine)
Right Professor. Marxism is a nutty conspiracy theory. But it is used as a tool to win secret police power so that any opponents can then be systematically killed off. The Chamber of Commerce has real skin in the game, since they are the ones that Obama and the Democrats want murdered first.
Libtard: Why can't they simply say where they are getting their money?
You first, bitch.
They should have nothing to be afraid of, if they are so bland and respectable.
Seriously, post your tax return info here. Afterall, "if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of"
Photo from a Chamber of Commerce trip to DC.
Look at them! Smiling as though we can't tell that they're plotting to bring down America!
Menacing. That's that word. They look menacing.
"Democrats have acknowledged they have no evidence that Montagne Montaigne molests little boys, but they argue that in the absence of tougher disclosure rules, it's entirely possible."
The US C of C commingles funds from American members and funds from foreign members. How could that lead to any problems when you're using membership donations to run political ads?
But whenever I think of the US C of C, I think of their biggest failed prediction. Someone got my dad a one-year subscription to their magazine, Nation's Business, back in the 60s. Extrapolating recent trends, they ran an article about the office of the year 2000. The failed prediction I remember was "topless secretaries" -- the Sexual Revolution as evidenced by the mini and microskirt would surely lead to the further bimboization of women.
Come on, Obama is not saying that we have to worry about the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. That's a straw man.
Obama is saying that foreigners are using the U.S. Chamber of Commerce as a proxy to destroy our democracy. It's those damned German Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftungs that are out to ruin us.
The Empire is striking back, indeed.
The Empire = Germany.
Now, how can anyone say this sounds crazy?
Whereas, Fen, there is absolute proof that you are shitstain. No disclosure needed. I see your point.
Freeman -- which one is US C of C President Tom Donohue?
While looking for his pic, I came across some quotes of Tom's re outsourcing. Why would we ever think that the US C of C would not have the best interests of the American people at heart?
FACT: U.S. Chamber President Donahue Said, "There Are Legitimate Values in Outsourcing." In 2004, U.S. Chamber of Commerce President Tom Donohue said, "there are legitimate values in outsourcing -- not only jobs, but work…." [CNN, 2/10/04]
FACT: U.S. Chamber President Donahue Defended Outsourcing of U.S. Jobs, Arguing That Americans Are "Short of Skills." Defending outsourcing in 2004, U.S. Chamber of Commerce President Tom Donohue said, "The big fundamental issue that we need to understand is we are short of skills in this country." [CNNFN, 5/3/04]
FACT: Donohue Tells Unemployed to “Stop Whining”. “Donohue acknowledged the pain for people who have lost jobs to offshoring - an estimated 250,000 a year, according to government estimates. But pockets of unemployment shouldn't lead to "anecdotal politics and policies," he said, and people affected by offshoring should "stop whining." [Associated Press, 7/5/2004]
FACT: Donohue Vowed to Fight Any Attempts to Reduce Outsourcing. "The chamber's message is clear: The US must be able to source around the world to stay competitive in the global economy and the business community will fight any attempts by our government to restrict outsourcing," Thomas Donohue, the chamber's president, told a news conference.” [Agence France Presse, 4/14/2004]
Nutty conspiracy theorist or cranky teenager?
It's "You're all stupid!" translated by a college degree.
Whatever Obama says is always crazy! You know what makes sense? The idea that the President hates America and that he is a foreign agent bent on installing a foreign ideology at the heart of American civilization. You know, what the majority of Republicans believe in one form or another. Totally sensible.
The Democrats have to campaign on something. They sure can't run on their record. Trying to scare old folks about social security doesn't seem to work anymore. The same goes for claiming that Republicans want to end stem cell research. The usual scare tactics have run out of steam. Time to invent some new boogeymen.
FLS, you're assuming that outsourcing is not in the best interests of Americans. Of that, I am not so sure as you.
Libtard: Whereas, Fen, there is absolute proof that you are shitstain. No disclosure needed. I see your point.
Well, good. Next time, don't be so dense and I won't have to be a shit.
So Americans are too dumb to evaluate an allegation and think about it for two seconds, you're saying.
No, the point is the Democrats are pretty dumb to pick a fight over an issue in which they're twice as vulnerable as Republicans.
It's harder to win a political fight when you're making decisions based on your insecurities instead of reality. But what can you say about leftists? They keep trying to reorganize my country based on a facile political philosophy that's failed everywhere it was applied.
So Americans are too dumb to evaluate an allegation and think about it for two seconds, you're saying.
That's the exact opposite of what she's saying. Obama's attacks on the Chamber of Commerce are nutty and weird. The more people think about them, the goofier Obama sounds.
Depend on it, sir, when a man knows he is going to hang in a fortnight it concentrates his mind wonderfully.
--Samuel Johnson (to Boswell)
Which kinda refutes the notion that being scared leads to fuzzy thinking.
Montaigne Montaigne,
Has it ever occurred to you that the President AND Republican politicians might both be incompetent?
Come on, meet us half way!
@Monty, at 4:39 you finally saw the light! Welcome to the ranks of those who understand reality.
Hey, Mundane finally gets it that his god hates America.
If you look at the link, this is getting very Freudian. These people are really letting their innermost opinions about not so much the American electorate but the Democrat Party base.
When The Zero says, "we're hard-wired not to always think clearly when we're scared. And the country is scared, and they have good reason to be.", he's talking about how the Demos have always gotten out the vote since FDR.
We know he thinks the bulk of the country are bitter clingers, now he's giving us his view of his base.
(The Crypto Jew)
FACT: U.S. Chamber President Donahue Said, "There Are Legitimate Values in Outsourcing." In 2004, U.S. Chamber of Commerce President Tom Donohue said, "there are legitimate values in outsourcing -- not only jobs, but work…." [CNN, 2/10/04]
FACT: U.S. Chamber President Donahue Defended Outsourcing of U.S. Jobs, Arguing That Americans Are "Short of Skills." Defending outsourcing in 2004, U.S. Chamber of Commerce President Tom Donohue said, "The big fundamental issue that we need to understand is we are short of skills in this country." [CNNFN, 5/3/04]
FACT: Donohue Tells Unemployed to “Stop Whining”. “Donohue acknowledged the pain for people who have lost jobs to offshoring - an estimated 250,000 a year, according to government estimates. But pockets of unemployment shouldn't lead to "anecdotal politics and policies," he said, and people affected by offshoring should "stop whining." [Associated Press, 7/5/2004]
FACT: Donohue Vowed to Fight Any Attempts to Reduce Outsourcing. "The chamber's message is clear: The US must be able to source around the world to stay competitive in the global economy and the business community will fight any attempts by our government to restrict outsourcing," Thomas Donohue, the chamber's president, told a news conference.” [Agence France Presse, 4/14/2004]
WOW, FLS, you mean the President of the CoC continues to defend companies saving money by wise business decisions. “Outsourcing”:
1) Is your Red Herring; and
2) Makes sense when you can get the same job done for ½ to ¾ the US price.
"The US C of C commingles funds from American members and funds from foreign members. How could that lead to any problems when you're using membership donations to run political ads?"
No, they've specifically said that they don't commingle funds. I have not seen evidence to the contrary.
Monty...The strange thing is how anyone can have observed Obama for 20 months in action and not conclude that is goal is to destroy the American Middleclass and the U S Dollar that happens to pay for the U S military supremacy. Not that there is anything wrong with hating Americans, every other marxist from Kenya probably does too.
Absolutely wonderful examples of strawman and ad hominem arguments appear early in the thread.
MM:
Why can't they simply say where they are getting their money? They should have nothing to be afraid of, if they are so bland and respectable.
Do you not understand how brainwashed you've become? Think about it:
The President of the United States is accusing the CoC of breaking the law. Publicly. In campaign speeches.
If this were a serious accusation, why is Eric Holder not conducting an investigation?
Since when does the chief law enforcement officer of the federal government--having a good faith suspicion that an org is "subverting democracy" by illegally pumping foreign donations into an election--decide that the best course of action is to give political stump speeches about it? The answer is that he isn't serious about it. It's just politics.
And when you and other liberals jump on this silly bandwagon, ("Prove it's not true!"), you're just becoming a shill, a mouthpiece for the cynical politics of this Admin. Because if *you* were serious about this and understood what you were talking about, you'd call for a Federal investigation, rather than parroting the Admin's line.
FLS, all four of Donahue's statements are factually correct. Outsourcing is good for America and for American business.
It is fashionable to bash outsourcing, since most Americans are too ignorant to understand why it is a good thing. But then again if Americans weren't widely ignorant of economics, nobody would vote for Democrats and Republicans.
Obama's economic worldview was formed by what he heard as a kid in [i.e] a lower to middle class barbershop. The denizens there really believe the COC is one of America's most dangerous groups.
Given Mr Obama's "bitter clingers" fund raising speech, and this rather misplaced socio-psychological analysis, I think it does speak to Mr Obama's view of human nature--and I find that view absolutely chilling. Now I recognize these comments were aimed at the wealthy liberal base that provide the American side of his money, but the fact that even trots them makes him a demagogue of the first order or one totally unschooled in American history or psychology.
While the US Chamber of Commerce is a large lobbying organization, there are local chambers all over the United States. When he said "Chamber of Commerce" the first image in everybody's mind was that local chamber right up the street.
you're assuming that outsourcing is not in the best interests of Americans.
Manufacturing is the source of many high-skilled, and thus relatively high-paid jobs. We have replaced our manufacturing economy with a retail economy, and Walmart cashiers do not get paid like machinists used to.
I'm indeed a shill for the administration, a happy shill for democrats, because guess what:
Today's Republican Party is Fucking Terrifying
They Have no Discernable Policy Ideas
I vastly prefer the mediocrity of Democrats and Obama, to the chilling callous vapidity of the Republicans.
You found me out!
Oh helps to mention: we have a two party system, and you have to make a choice.
Obama wants to demonize and destroy the Chamber of Commerce because it has long been part of the basic fabric of American Life and known and respected by normal everyday Americans. You know like the family doctor and General Motors and the local car dealership and the rest of the things that the bitter clinging typical white people cherish along with their guns and religion in these our fifty seven states.
Don’t miss him tonight on "Pawn Stars" where he wants to sell out a slightly tattered Constitution
former law student: Walmart cashiers do not get paid like machinists used to.
Machinists don't get paid what machinists used to!
A repeat:
see you in november
FLS;
I think what you're saying is
Ok there's no evidence that the C of C is taking foreign money but clearly they would want to.
I'll ask you what I asked Garage on another thread; Why don't Dems clearly state:
It was a dumb, baseless accusation and the Administration should retract, apologize and move on
Defense of the stupidity does not look good.
You are out of touch; turns out, among others, a Veterans for Security and Democracy have filed an FEC complain against the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. Some folks are connecting the dots: the firms from India supporting the Chamber, The Chamber supporting the candidates supporting outsourcing and round it goes.
"Don’t miss him tonight on "Pawn Stars" where he wants to sell out a slightly tattered Constitution"
Folks, we have a winnah.
Monty--we do in fact have a two party system--this election will, I believe, test the strength of that system--I may be the republican party becomes the whigs of the mid 19th century. The Dems? no hope for them .
As to the strawman assertion: the Rs have no policy positions. While I think the "pledge" was full of shit, it is the basis for policy posittions. You and I give it the same credence I suspect; rather like Mr Obama's campaign promises, no?
And as for policy positions, the Dem's policy positions seem to not be playing well with electorate these days. This will most certainly be an interesting election in two weeks
Yeah but those guys were Veterans of the Spanish Civil War.
I don't know if that counts.
I'm indeed a shill for the administration, a happy shill for democrats, because guess what:
Today's Republican Party is Fucking Terrifying
They Have no Discernable Policy Ideas
I vastly prefer the mediocrity of Democrats and Obama, to the chilling callous vapidity of the Republicans.
Congrats, you've moved into the "Voting out of fear and hate" arena.
I might be inclined to "stay the course" with the Democrats if I had any idea what that course is. What is the Democrats' plan to spark an economic recovery? They have none.
MM gasped: "Today's Republican Party is Fucking Terrifying
They Have no Discernable Policy Ideas"
You're terrified because you can't read? Brilliant.
"What is the Democrats' plan to spark an economic recovery? They have none."
That's not true. Take that back.
They want to raise taxes. And then spend it.
Don't tell dirty flithy lies like that.
You are out of touch; turns out, among others, a Veterans for Security and Democracy have filed an FEC complain against the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
Well, at least someone is putting their money where their mouth is, as opposed to just making speeches about it.
Obama: "OMG I think they're breaking the law! What are we going to do about it? If only this country had an executive branch that had the power to investigate this kind of illegal activity."
(The Crypto Jew)
Veterans for Security and Democracy
WOW, all of whom seem to LIBERAL Democrats. Who could have seen THAT coming?
Mantagne Montaigne: I'm indeed a shill for the administration, a happy shill for democrats...
The real Montaigne would have had more sense than to allow something like that to happen.
Why can't they simply say where they are getting their money? They should have nothing to be afraid of, if they are so bland and respectable.
Because they don't have to. It isn't Obama's or your business. The laws do not compel this information.
Seriously, when people think "Chamber of Commerce" they think about Joe (their insurance agent) Susie (the restaurant owner) Billy Bob (the gas station owner and mechanic).
So considering that these are the people that come to mind and that Obama is alleging that they are involved in some sort of international conspiracy, just doesn't compute with the ordinary person's perception.
The whole issue is a complete loser for the Democrats and I think that most of them who have to deal with their constituants know it.
Manufacturing is the source of many high-skilled, and thus relatively high-paid jobs.
Manufacturing is the source of very few high-skilled jobs and many, many semi-skilled and unskilled jobs. The reason that (for example) the United Auto Workers worry about losing their jobs to Mexico is that basically any dolt can learn to work on an assembly line after a few months of training.
Oh those Veterans, have "Tony" McPeak as an advisor...no thanx.
Former Law Student, you bone-ignorant moron... do you even know what "outsourcing" is?
Here's a clue: It's not the same as "offshoring."
Whoever your getting your talking points memos from is a shitbird.
"Voters 'Scared,' Not Thinking Clearly"?
Gosh, with unemployment at 10%, what's to be scared of?
Haven't you heard from Franklin Delano Obama that the only thing we have to fear is the COC itself? And that harridan Palin? Oh, and that Evil Empire, the GOP. They're scary too.
Three things only that we have to fear.
I mean four.
I forgot Representative John Boehner. S. C. A. R. Y.
And small businesses. Oooh, Sca-a-ary scary scary.
Five things.
Five scary things.
(The Crypto Jew)
And these Veterans, I think they need to prove they are not receiving foreign funds.
I think it's reasonable to assume they are...I belive they need to PROVE they aren't.
Obama thinks this is a winner because he can attack small businessmen and entrepreneurs and normal everyday Americans who are part of the Chamber of Commerce. And the Rotary. And the Elks. And the Knights of Columbus. Bitter clingers all.
The only people he doesn’t want to disclose the funding are the people trying to build the Ground Zero Mosque. Now that’s what he calls a Freedom of Speech issue.
@trooper--yeah, and those knights of Columbus guys are really scary: they carry swords--not cavalry sabres mind you, but still swords. Definitely a subversive element.
(The Crypto Jew)
Wow, who could have guessed, so far all the candidates at teh VEterans site are...DEMOCRATS.
I'm pretty amazed.
Revenant: Manufacturing is the source of very few high-skilled jobs and many, many semi-skilled and unskilled jobs.
Very true! Chinese factories are filled with young people of little experience doing one simple task over and over. People who want manufacturing jobs back have no idea what it entails now-a-days.
Just looked up Veterans for Security and Democracy. LOL.
"People think our party is anti-military."
"We need a veterans' PAC to endorse our stuff."
"None of them will."
"I know! Let's make one..."
Manufacturing is the source of many high-skilled, and thus relatively high-paid jobs.
Uh, no. No it's not. That's demonstrably untrue, since there are not many highly-skilled, high-paid manufacturing jobs. QED.
Now if they want to investigate the "International Order of Odd Fellows"....well I am with him on that one.
Especially since they elected RH Hardin Grand Poohbah.
We can have high priced manufacturing jobs, but they'll be in fields for luxury or high-priced industrial goods or machining. And it only works in those areas because of the higher level of training and quality control required.
I hate how people bemoan the loss of manufacturing, when it doesn't make sense for Americans to make cheap plastic stuff or assembly line electronics. No one is willing to pay high prices for such stuff, but there's no other way to pay an American $20/hr to crank out $.05 trinkets all day. When it comes to manufacturing, our goal is to look more like Germany, not China.
China *just* surpassed the US as the world's leader in manufacturing. We're not the third-tier manufacturing economy that everyone thinks we are.
Some folks are connecting the dots: the firms from India supporting the Chamber, The Chamber supporting the candidates supporting outsourcing and round it goes
So you have managed to "connect the dots" and reveal... that the CoC thinks outsourcing is good and the people being outsourced to agree. That's some heavy detective work. To figure that out you would probably have to do something radical, like read a CoC press release.
Some folks are connecting the dots: the firms from India supporting the Chamber, The Chamber supporting the candidates supporting outsourcing and round it goes
Why wouldn't they support outsourcing? They're open about it.
And it makes sense economically.
I understand the homer notion that "the jobs should stay here!" But what good is that sentiment when it's totally unrealistic? Should a business owner choose to pay more and become uncompetitive because of sentimentality? Is it better to be (a) a successful business owner who outsourced 20,000 jobs, or (b) a failed business owner whose entire company shut down and put 40,000 people out of work?
I actually manufacture stuff in the real world. Clothing to be exact And all of the people working in the factory are either Mexican or Chinese.
Good Americans all. Or future Americans as quite a few of them are studying to pass the test. They love this country and work very hard.
And they hate taxes even more than me.
They say "Senor...who is this FICA and why is he taking all of mi dinero?"
The same factory makes a lot of stuff for the US Marine Corps. They lovingly and carefull make the uniforms and other gear that many of their sons and daughters who are under arms wear.
Something you never about from either side of the political fence.
When I went out to California, I was humbled by how hard they work for the money they make.
If you think these elitist douche bags have their best interest at heart then you are as dumb as a fuckin post.
If you think these elitist douche bags have their best interest at heart then you are as dumb as a fuckin post.
Good rule of thumb is that everyone has his own best interests at heart.
And by elitist douche bags I do not mean the Chamber of Commerce which is made up of people who own those factories and are most often immigrants themselves and who know how hard it is to run a business here in America today.
You know who you are you scum bags.
OK, apparently "outsourcing" is the Dems' new bogeyman, their previous 4 or 5 bogeymen having failed to elicit any reaction whatsoever from the voting public.
But for this to be a winning issue for the Dems, people not have to dislike outsourcing, they have to believe the Dems have a viable solution. And after 2 years of observing Obama's "leadership skills", I don't think people are going to buy the notion that he actually can solve a complex issue like this.
So, no matter how much people dislike outsourcing - and they do - it's hard to see this being a winning issue for Obama.
Montagne Montaigne said...
I'm indeed a shill for the administration, a happy shill for democrats, because guess what:
Today's Republican Party is Fucking Terrifying
They Have no Discernable Policy Ideas
I vastly prefer the mediocrity of Democrats and Obama, to the chilling callous vapidity of the Republicans.
English translation:
The Republican Party is in the process of being taken over by the Tea Party and I'm terrified of real Americans running this country as opposed to the same small c communists who have been pointing this country down the same failed road as the Euros.
Bad as they are, the Republicans, as opposed to the Tea Partiers, had more ideas to try to turn this Depre, uh, recession around than the same crony politics that have been the mainstay of the Democrat Party since 1932.
I vastly prefer the phony compassion and tolerance of the elitist snobs running the Democrat Party than people who don't give a damn about class warfare and identity politics, but who are willing to cut taxes and spending and want to save this country for their kids and grandchildren
And by elitist douche bags I do not mean the Chamber of Commerce which is made up of people who own those factories and are most often immigrants themselves and who know how hard it is to run a business here in America today.
But the Democrats tell me that all business owners are top-hat-wearing, champagne-swilling, greedy capitalists riding around on magic carpets stuffed with cash and won't create jobs because they like seeing poor people suffer. Are you telling me they lied?!! [/Vader: NOOOOOO!]
Oh yeah, and they're all supposed to be white!
Maguro--enjoyed your post. Unless Mr Obama can somehow repeal microeconomic laws of supply and demand, he's not up to the outsourcing/shoring issue. It is simply something best left to a market, and interfering with markets is something that no politician--especially someone inadept as POTUS--can do.
Yea what average American busting his ass somewhere doesn't feel sorry for business owners first, that ship jobs like his overseas.
The guy who owns the factory is an immigrant from the Philippines who spent twenty years in the Navy and earned his citizenship the hard way. His entire family works twelve hour days and he employs about 300 people.
He is the face of manufacturers in the USA. Not the guy on the Monopoly board.
Ok there's no evidence that the C of C is taking foreign money but clearly they would want to.
No, there's evidence the US C of C is taking foreign money -- dues from overseas "AmChams," some of whose members are foreign; dues from foreign companies operating in the US -- but there's no evidence what they're spending it on, except what they themselves claim.
In trying to research the US C of C on the web I find that they repeatedly told at least on big fat fib -- that they had three million members while they really had 1/10th that number.
He doesn't earn six figures or have a bunch of classic cars in his garage. So to speak.
"While the US Chamber of Commerce is a large lobbying organization, there are local chambers all over the United States. When he said "Chamber of Commerce" the first image in everybody's mind was that local chamber right up the street."
Exactly. Obama is acting stupidly.
It's a political misstep, an unforced error. It's the sort of thing, that if anything actually untoward was going on his justice department should go after vigorously but quietly so as to avoid the impression that Obama is hauling out yet another trusted segment of America to vilify... along with Doctors, Las Vegas, Big Business, Energy companies, and Bitter Clingers.
And when the business goes broke because salaries and benefit costs exceed the revenues, then everyone in the company is on the street. As I recall from my economics classes is this called structural unemployment--If your perception is that business owners are Silas Marner types then so be it.
No, there's evidence the US C of C is taking foreign money -- dues from overseas "AmChams," some of whose members are foreign; dues from foreign companies operating in the US -- but there's no evidence what they're spending it on, except what they themselves claim.
Yeah, no surprise since they've readily admitted that they accept foreign dues.
But they have said explicitly that they have controls to prevent commingling (which shouldn't be very hard to do). I guess now that someone has stepped up with an FEC complaint we'll find out for certain.
"He doesn't earn six figures or have a bunch of classic cars in his garage. So to speak."
But does he have a wheelbarrow? I won't play unless I get the wheelbarrow.
Obama: "OMG I think they're breaking the law! What are we going to do about it? If only this country had an executive branch that had the power to investigate this kind of illegal activity."
LOL!
(On the not funny side... sort of like Murtha, "OMG I wish there was an organization with the authority and power to oversee the military.")
I wonder if Thomas Donohue, President of the US Chamber of Commerce, knows that "Jason" is calling him a "shitbird."
Manufacturing is the source of very few high-skilled jobs and many, many semi-skilled and unskilled jobs.
Not in high-tech (RIP) Manufacturing had more Process Engineers, Product Engineers, Equipment Engineers, Maintenance Engineers, Quality Engineers, Test Engineers, Technicians of various flavors and stripes, Machinists, Mechanics, Purchasing Agents, etc. etc. than Production Operators.
Synova said: "...to avoid the impression that Obama is hauling out yet another trusted segment of America to vilify..."
Hell, I'm wondering who's left.
when people think "Chamber of Commerce" they think about Joe (their insurance agent) Susie (the restaurant owner) Billy Bob (the gas station owner and mechanic).
So considering that these are the people that come to mind
Yes, Obama should have made it clear he wasn't talking about foreign entities funding attack ads run by the Ashtabula [OH] Chamber of Commerce.
I think the problem with a lot of liberals is that they don't understand that the vast vast majority of businesses in the US struggle mightily just to make any profit. The failure rates of new businesses is pretty astounding.
But instead of recognizing that owning a business is not some easy path to wealth and worker exploitation, they're locked in that old Marxist trope, "boss = enemy." That leads to even worse absurdities, like the criticism that businesses are just making profits instead of jobs, or that seeking to make a profit at all is selfish and exploitative.
I have a question... how many people here have *worked* at an assembly job in a factory of *any* sort?
I have. I worked at a plastic molding factory doing secondary assembly making cargo beds for ATVs. The building was a furnace, the work took no training, and employees tended to last about 3 months (those that didn't leave for lunch and never come back) before they got shoulder injuries and switched employers.
Did someone here actually suggest that manufacturing pays a lot?
Manufacturing is the source of many high-skilled, and thus relatively high-paid jobs.
Written by someone who has never put in an 8 hr shift in a factory. Why do you suppose our immigrant fathers and grandfathers who worked in factories were so determined to send their children to college?
btw- many US factory/manufacturing jobs have been replaced by technology.
Dumber line of attack than Obama's farce-of-the-day.
There are a number of foreign automobile companies which located plants in the southern United States. The jobs here have been outsourced from the unionized north, Michigan in particular. Any of these companies could have located in Mexico or elsewhere but chose an area with a well motivated and educated workforce that is willing to live in the real world, not the world of 100,000 per year assembly workers with solid gold benefits. The left longs for the day of the noble worker earning far beyond her education and ability cruising the work rules to prosperity. Those jobs are not coming back and are appropriately shipped to more friendly environs.
When it comes to manufacturing, our goal is to look more like Germany, not China.
Tough goal. Twice as much of the German workforce is in manufacturing.
http://www.bls.gov/fls/flscomparelf/lfcompendium.pdf
Did someone here actually suggest that manufacturing pays a lot?
Sure, if you had a union job in an auto plant in the 70s. Of course, once the rest of the world (Japan) figured out how to make better quality cars for cheaper, those well-paying jobs became extremely overpaid jobs.
We need to realize that many of the manufacturing jobs are not coming back. That time is past, and unless our economy and standard of living gets cut in half, our workers are just not going to be competitive in many manufacturing areas.
Know what we're good at? Tech. Aerospace. Luxury goods. Machining. It would be great if the Dems didn't try to tax these industries out of existence.
When it comes to manufacturing, our goal is to look more like Germany, not China.
Tough goal. Twice as much of the German workforce is in manufacturing.
I just meant in terms of what types of manufacturing we want to do. Germany doesn't make TV sets or cheap trinkets. They make industrial machinery, luxury goods, and other items that require high skillsets and high quality control. I have little desire to see the US become a powerhouse in textiles or cheap commodity goods.
Know what we're good at?
Tech.
Lost our leadership to Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, China
Aerospace.
True because government subsidized.
Luxury goods.
Leaders are France, Switzerland, Italy, UK
Machining.
Business went to Taiwan, Germany.
Garage, et al: How does one "ship" a job overseas? Have any idea what that means? Do plant and equipment spring from the ether "overseas?" Do the workers overseas fail to perform the jobs otherwise performed by our noble former workers on these shores? How did they learn to do these things? Who taught them? Was it free? Was there any arithmetic involved in making the decision to "ship" a job overseas? Were any million spent trying, pleading with workers to accept reduced benefits in industries that were producing crap cars built with shit parts? Or were these owners told to pound salt? Or did these overseas plants just spring up and blossom at the exact right moment?
Final post on outsourcing and manufacturing:
The only reason we had a "golden age" of global dominance in manufacturing is that the rest of the industrialized world was bombed into rubble and bankrupted during WWII. Of course we were number one for decades--hell, the Brits had food rationing until the mid-50s.
It's easy to be a global powerhouse when your factories are running at full speed and staffed with tons of happy, healthy, and victorious workers. Much harder when your factory got visited by too many B-17s and half your workforce is dead or in Soviet POW camps (same thing really).
It's been more than six decades since then, and now we actually have to compete on a more even footing. Falling back on sentimentality ("Oh, but manufacturing used to pay so well!") won't help us out. You can't pay a guy $30/hr when a guy across the border will do it for a fifth as much (Well, you can do it, but then you'd be out of business).
The Germans have built automobile plants in South Carolina and Tennessee. The Koreans are in Alabama and Georgia. The Japanese are in Tennessee. Anybody note any themes? The Germans "shipped" jobs to this region. The Koreans "shipped" jobs to this region. The Japanese "shipped" jobs to this region.
Today's Republican Party is Fucking Terrifying
They Have no Discernable Policy Ideas
The problem is all the "Discernable [sic] Policy Ideas" on the Democrat side will make the country a discernibly worse place to live. When Twain remarked "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session" he was talking about the 111th Congress.
Absolutely frozen solid deadlock will be far preferable to what we've had in the last two years.
When it comes to manufacturing, our goal is to look more like Germany, not China.
The problem with that is there can be only one high end. We can't do it without displacing the Germans, and quite frankly I doubt that's possible.
Garage, et al: How does one "ship" a job overseas?
Structure the IRS code to reward it, making any US subsidiary in a foreign country exempt from paying taxes on the revenue. This is what the Chamber is fighting for.
Even by conservative standards, seeing them righteously defend not only outsourcing American jobs, but foreign entities, [like the Kingdom of Bahrain for instance], to buy U.S. elections is an eyeopener. Honestly, I say fuck them all, I don't even consider them American anymore.
Know what we're good at?
Tech.
Lost our leadership to Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, China
Maybe Taiwan and South Korea are up there, but mostly they do the engineering and manufacturing. The ideas and the money are being made in Silicon Valley, Redmond, Texas, and elsewhere.
Aerospace.
True because government subsidized.
Not really; this is at the heart of Boeing's ongoing dispute with EADS/Airbus, which is that the latter gets direct gov't subsidies. You could argue they're subsidized because of the homefield advantage in gov't contracting, and in a more esoteric sense they are subsidized because their R&D overhead is partially covered by Washington. But we'd likely have a big aerospace sector regardless since we're one of the only countries with a large enough manufacturing and skill base to do it.
Luxury goods.
Leaders are France, Switzerland, Italy, UK
Yup. And the Scandinavian countries too. But we don't do too badly. We used to dominate in private yachts (again, Democrats and taxes) and still do well in private jets.
Machining.
Business went to Taiwan, Germany.
There's no reason it can't be done here.
"The idea that the Chamber of Commerce is ruining America sounds like something a nutty conspiracy theorist would say."
Exactly. Isn't it a shame you helped put him in office, Ann?
While we're on the topic, I have something to say to Barack Obama:
Mr. President: I have lived in the United States for 48 years and not once have I ever heard the President of my country call his fellow Americans cowards.
I am flabbergasted that you have the temerity to show your face in public after such comments.
I say this to you, Mr. President ... I am not a coward. I am not scared because I am empowered by my vote, which I will use to fire your sorry ass. And all your friends too.
Never in my entire life would I have ever considered that my own President would call the American people cowardly. My mother used to say "if you don't have something nice to say about a person you probably should just shut up."
And so, Mr. President, I would offer you her advice: If you can't find something nice to say about the American people - who are merely busy exercising the franchise our forefathers paid for with their blood - then I'd recommend you just shut your fucking pie hole.
Capice?
Structure the IRS code to reward it, making any US subsidiary in a foreign country exempt from paying taxes on the revenue. This is what the Chamber is fighting for.
So you think companies with no US employees should pay corporate taxes in their host country, pay corporate taxes in the US, and then the shareholders should pay taxes on dividends. That's really quite insight... no, wait, that's idiotic.
You wouldn't see more US jobs if they change the law. What you'd see is US companies divesting themselves of foreign subsidiaries.
Structure the IRS code to reward it, making any US subsidiary in a foreign country exempt from paying taxes on the revenue. This is what the Chamber is fighting for.
So you think companies with no US employees should pay corporate taxes in their host country, pay corporate taxes in the US, and then the shareholders should pay taxes on dividends. That's really quite insight... no, wait, that's idiotic.
You wouldn't see more US jobs if they change the law. What you'd see is US companies divesting themselves of foreign subsidiaries.
This would all be moot if the US just lowered the corporate tax rate to be more in line with that of the rest of the developed world (yeah, we have the second highest corporate tax rate). But I doubt we'll see any Democrat ever line up behind that sensible change.
GM: I would suggest the term "American Jobs" is a misnomer--the only American jobs are in the public sector. The jobs are a function of the owner of the firm. And he or she gets to place them where they want in order to minimize employee costs. The use of the term American Jobs is jingoistic and nativist at best.
That said, the other technological factors that make outsourcing/offshoring feasible are Just In Time delivery coupled with efficient transportation assets such as FedEx and UPS--and of course the software that makes it possible to route and track products. Outsourcing or offshoring is a response to a changing technological world--this is why the manufacturers of buggy whips went out of business early last century.
If you think that job creation and retention is somehow a moral imperative for employers then so be it. I do not share that view. When an employer has a profitable enterprise, all will be better off.
Per Revenant:
"Manufacturing is the source of very few high-skilled jobs and many, many semi-skilled and unskilled jobs. The reason that (for example) the United Auto Workers worry about losing their jobs to Mexico is that basically any dolt can learn to work on an assembly line after a few months of training."
But few dolts can design, install, program the automation, troubleshoot or maintain a modern assembly line. They require daily support by a trained staff to keep running and turning out good product.
I'm onto you Revenant. You're either FOS or prone to making dumb statements.
If you think that job creation and retention is somehow a moral imperative for employers then so be it. I do not share that view. When an employer has a profitable enterprise, all will be better off.
Exactly! No business owner creates jobs as a matter of generosity or because creating jobs is a goal of the business. They create jobs when more employees will contribute to profitability. Any business owner to forgets that will quickly become a failed business owner.
fls -
The top tech companies in the world are: Google, Apple, Microsoft, Intel, Oracle, etc.
Which one of those is run out of Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea or China?
None of the above?
That's what I thought....
This would all be moot if the US just lowered the corporate tax rate to be more in line with that of the rest of the developed world (yeah, we have the second highest corporate tax rate). But I doubt we'll see any Democrat ever line up behind that sensible change.
Well, the feeling seems to be the state is somehow doing corporations a favor by allowing them to conduct business. In reality it's more the other way around - if I were king I'd eliminate the corporate tax and bring back true at-will employment so corporations would bring jobs to the US.
Corporate income taxes are a bad revenue source to start with. When you have tough economic times, when your outlays are greatest, the corporate taxes dry up because nobody's making money.
FLS,
If you're going to whine that the head of the CoC is cruelly assessing Americans as "lacking skills", you might want to NOT follow that up with a claim that we suck at creating high-tech goods, machinery, and luxury items.
But few dolts can design, install, program the automation, troubleshoot or maintain a modern assembly line. They require daily support by a trained staff to keep running and turning out good product.
Those are service jobs, not manufacturing. They're an example of why we now have a service-driven economy -- we excel at skilled labor, and it doesn't take skill to work an assembly line. It takes skill to figure out how the assembly line should work.
So Americans figure that out, and then we hire cheap unskilled labor to do it.
The top tech companies in the world are: Google, Apple, Microsoft, Intel, Oracle, etc.
Which one of those is run out of Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea or China?
None of the above?
That's what I thought....
Yeah, what's pretty hilarious is that here people are complaining "Why are they outsourcing all our jobs?"
Over there they're saying "Why are they just shipping us the crap jobs and keeping the good ones there?"
Whether it's true or not that, as Revenant says, "any dolt" can learn assembly line work, the fact remains that he has to be a conscientious "dolt." If he's a sloppy "dolt" the product made will be unsatisfactory, to put it mildly. As millions of Americans who switched to Japanese cars after multiple bad experiences with Monday or Friday assembly line made American cars can attest.
Why is everyone falling for this distraction when Rotary International (International!) is only months away from developing a nuclear weapon?
Freeman Hunt said...
Photo from a Chamber of Commerce trip to DC.
Look at them! Smiling as though we can't tell that they're plotting to bring down America!
You can see the evil, diabolical plotting that they are engaged in at the time of this photo. What evil lurks in the nefarious minds of these machinationed demons of anti-socialism. The fat, bald guy in the back is their leader. I an sense it.
Revenant said...
high-tech goods, machinery, and luxury items.
Awesome Elite reference.
Up next: "Beware the Shriners! They wear the hats of foreigners!"
but there's no evidence what they're spending it on, except what they themselves claim.
Since we're getting boatloads of Chinese money, who's to say or not say that the POTUS salary is or is not being paid by the Chinese?
Great fun making dumb statements trying to prove negatives.
Synova said: "...to avoid the impression that Obama is hauling out yet another trusted segment of America to vilify..."
Hell, I'm wondering who's left.
I think the Girl Scouts better be watching out for their asses. Those sneaky capitalistic bitches with their chocolat mint cookies!!!
4H looks suspicious too. What ARE they up to with all those sheep? Hmmmmmm??
I think the Girl Scouts better be watching out for their asses. Those sneaky capitalistic bitches with their chocolat mint cookies!!!
Well CLEARLY it's only being done as a sekrit evil attempt to undermine Michelle's anti-obesity campaign.
And think of the symbolic tool they use: A Thin Mint. Black on the outside, white on inside.
Think about it.
If I were Obama, I'd be on the watch for those super-skeery March of Dimes folks...
Think about it:
March - obviously a reference to militias
Dimes - obviously a reference to rich, white capitalists working to keep a brotha down
See how the racists use their "code words" to hide their REAL agenda?
THIS. CANNOT. STAND.
I DEMAND that Obama make another VERY IMPORTANT SPEECH to rally the troops to root out these racist, miltia types over at the so-called MARCH OF DIMES!
To arms!!!!!
WV: untsheli - the name of yet another illegal alien Obama relative
Agreed. Once these Teabaggers learn to march, it's only a matter of time before they re-cling to their guns and then BAM! Coup in Washington.
PS. I hear that those March of Dimes folks will take donations from ANYWHERE.
They're undermining our democracy with all that foreign money with all that foreign money!!!
(And don't forget about all that foreign money that's being used to buy up the Treasuries that are financing Obama's profligate spending. We're losing our democracy to foreigners wherever you look!)
Why won't Obama speak up about the corrupting influence of foreigners owning all of our sovereign debt?
I would agree that this was an unforced error on the part of the White House. Or, maybe not so unforced, but an error none the less.
Part of the reason that it is an error is that it is projection on the part of the Democrats. They have taken large amounts of foreign contributions at least since Clinton/Gore in 96. Remember the Buddhist monks? The Department of Commerce export of our missile guidance technology to the ChiComs, presumably in trade for campaign contributions? Or, the Obama campaign turning off credit card verification and getting large numbers of suspect contributions, many from over seas? (And, esp. egregious, apparently, were those from Muslims, given his refusal to stand up to them).
It is a sign of panic. ObamaCare the "stimulus" bill, TARP, etc. were all supposed to win votes, not lose them. But this may be the biggest electoral wipe-out in the House in several generations, and no matter what the Democrats do, they seem to be digging themselves deeper into the hole.
I think that the reality is that the Democrats in Congress, and, yes, the White House, got sucked into the idea that the last election was somehow a defining election. And, that no matter what the polls said, that the American people, deep down, would come around to understand the magnificence of what the Democrats had wrought.
Of course, it turns out that the "stimulus" actually cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of jobs, and primarily benefited their major constituents, such as government employees. And, it turns out that, contrary to all the hype, there never were very many shovel ready projects available, and that the Administration was lying through their teeth all along there. And, then, in the midst of the Great Recession, and contrary to the will of the people, the Democrats raised taxes and passed ObamaCare.
The White House is still in serious denial about what they have done over the last almost two years. And that is why they think that if they can just package things differently, put the right spin on things, and get some bogeymen out in front of the public, everything will be just fine.
But they greatly underestimate the depth of the discontent of the American people. They were lied to in 2008, and are out for blood. And, while they won't be able to get it from Obama and his Administration, they will be able to get some of their blood lust sated with Congress.
Anybody note any themes?
Local government subsidies.
By the 1990s the threat of protectionism had passed, yet foreign automakers continued to expand operations in the United States. The reason now was to bolster their ever-rising U.S. market share and to take advantage of what had become relatively inexpensive U.S. labor. The latter motivation prompted companies to shift their focus from the Midwest to "right to work" states in the South. Nonetheless, state and local governments continued to offer up lucrative subsidy packages, including the following:
In 1992 South Carolina ushered in the new wave of investment by foreign carmakers in the South by offering BMW a package that was ultimately worth an estimated $150 million. A decade later, the state put up an additional $80 million in infrastructure aid when BMW decided to expand its operations in the state.
In 1993 officials in Alabama lured a Mercedes-Benz facility, the first foreign auto plant in the state, with a package worth $258 million.
In 1999 Alabama put together a $158 million subsidy deal to land a $400 million, 1.7 million-square-foot Honda plant. In 2002 state and local officials provided an additional package worth $90 million, including $33 million in tax breaks over 20 years, when Honda decided to expand the facility.
In 2000 officials in Mississippi lured a $950 million Nissan plant with a $295 million subsidy deal. While the plant was still under construction, the company announced an expansion of the project that also involved an increase in the subsidy package to $363 million.
When South Korean carmakers Hyundai staged a competition for a $1 billion plant, various states put together bids, but it was Alabama that won the contest in 2002 with a package worth $252 million.
http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/corporate_subsidy/automobile_assembly_plants.cfm
FLS: You act like "subsidies" are some kind of horrible thing. They represent competition, states and their citizens who believe that deploying taxes in a way other than buying votes might be a good idea. Of course the states subsidized the factories. Among other things when a state wants something big it can't fuck around the company the way it can a small business with environmental blockades and tax blockages etc.
That is another of the "subsidies" that the states offer. Do you think that the cars built in these plants are somehow defective because of this?
Oh, and one more thing you knew but didn't mention. In addition to the subsidies the states offer a willing and able work force that does not have five generations of entitlements in mind, is not "represented" by unions and which builds good product as opposed to the shit that comes out of Detroit.
you might want to NOT follow that up with a claim that we suck at creating high-tech goods, machinery, and luxury items.
Americans are excellent at all these things. The dirty secret of, for example, high tech and machinery is that as we outsourced production, to the Far East, the people producing product learned product development in consequence.
The top tech companies in the world are: Google, Apple, Microsoft, Intel, Oracle, etc.
You left off the world's largest maker of electronic components, Foxconn of Taiwan. Also the world's leading motherboard manufacturer, Asustek, also of Taiwan. In fact, most of these companies make nothing whatever. Intel is the only high tech manufacturing company on that list, and they are conspicuous for continuing to make things in the US.
which builds good product as opposed to the shit that comes out of Detroit.
Funnily enough, assembly workers can build only what management gives them to build. If you give them Chevys to build, they build Chevys. If you give them BMWs to build, they build BMWs.
What have the Southern states bought with their subidies? Just another failed stimulus plan, at the cost of several hundred thousand dollars per job. Unlike what has happened in Singapore, Taiwan, China, etc. no Southern state is a center of automotive design or R&D -- that knowledge remains overseas.
And if you think Hyundais are better cars than come out of Detroit, your judgment is in serious doubt.
FLS: I didn't notice at first that your cut and paste was from a source other than Wiki, your go-to source for nearly everything. Goodjobsfirst.org!!! It is worth a spin through this website to learn the various ways in which unions and their ilk have driven jobs offshore. I highly recommend spending some time reading the utter nonsense on this website. Its got it all!! Anti-suburbanism. Unions! High Pay!! Great working conditions.
Thanks, FLS.
Hyundais are superior to most. Excellent engineering, well constructed, affordable and with excellent warranties. Detroit built cars are complete shit, Ford excepted. Do you think that the driving public is stupid? Do you think that they buy foreign cars because they are poorly designed and fall apart? Do you think they buy them because they think they are ugly in comparison to domestic offerings? People defected from Detroit because the designs and quality were woeful. Union built cars were a joke. I saw a brand new Cadillac lose an entire wheel making a turn into the Union Square underground back in the 1980s. Fell right off. It was one of those splendid Cadillac models that came and went and was meant to compete with BMW.
FLS: Ask the Greenville SC CofC what impact the assembly plants have had on the region. Look at the development along the interstate for twenty miles in both directions from the city and you will see "failed stimulus." You really do not know what you are talking about.
He should have called it, "The Star-Chamber, of commerce." Then it might have sounded more scary and less dull.
fls,Clemson University has built an International Center for Automotive Research (ICAR) in Greenvile, SC. This facility and campus is large and impressive. It has been instrumental in drawing several vehicle related companies to this area since it opened. That includes an electric bus company. South Carolina is a southern state.
Althouse continues to embarrass herself in public.
* The US Chamber has many fewer members than they claim and most of their money comes from a small group of large businesses. Any Main Street image some might have is a myth.
* The US Chamber strongly supports massive/illegal immigration, amnesty, guest workers, and H1Bs. All of those things negatively affect many teapartiers and Beck fans. What the Chamber supports raises taxes on the partiers, decreases their power, and might drive them out of their jobs.
And, they're too dumb and emotionally-challenged to realize that.
What have the Southern states bought with their subidies [sic]? Just another failed stimulus plan, at the cost of several hundred thousand dollars per job.
I doubt that. The states collect income tax on all those jobs. Honda (or whoever) may get tax breaks, but all the small businesses that tend to spring up around large manufacturing operations don't.
And how many of these "subsidies" are just tax breaks? What's the difference in state outlays between a company that's operating in your state with tax breaks and a company that's building cars somewhere else? How many of the people who are now employed would have been on some kind of state assistance, a money sink instead of a taxpayer?
Blue@9: Over there they're saying "Why are they just shipping us the crap jobs and keeping the good ones there?"
No, they're not, because that's not what's happening. Kind of a weird question for a Chinese scientist working for Pfizer in China to be asking, don't you think? Or a Chinese programmer working for Microsoft, or a Chinese engineer working for you-name-it? Or more and more, any of the above working for the up-and-coming home-grown competitors of those companies? (Though I have heard more than one unemployed, technically skilled American ask the question you're attributing to others.)
I don't know why Americans persist in the delusional belief that places like China are still just doing low-value-added manufacturing. The U.S. is a net importer in just about every sector of high-tech - and no, that doesn't mean "stuff that was just assembled overseas after being designed by brainy guys in Silicon Valley who employ lots of lots of skilled Americans here while foreigners do the scut work ha ha ha".
And btw, the "U.S. Chamber of Commerce" has squat to do with Main Street, or "American competitiveness". If the Democrats weren't such complete lunatic retards, they might actually have been able to find a winning issue in there somewhere. Well, aside from the fact they're just as owned by the same interests as the people they're attempting to criticize.
And what do you notice about those bastions of tech manufacturing you reference, FLS?
"Taiwan's corporate income-tax rate (17%) will be on a par with Singapore's and slightly above Hong Kong's 16.5%." The US rate, for comparison, averages about 40%.
Lower the US rate, and bring investment and an estimated $500 billion in un-repatriated earnings back to the US.
fls:
What have the Southern states bought with their subidies? Just another failed stimulus plan, at the cost of several hundred thousand dollars per job.
They brought tens of thousands of stable and long-term middle-class jobs that contribute to the tax base and enriches everyone. Sure beats spending it on a sports stadium.
And if you think Hyundais are better cars than come out of Detroit, your judgment is in serious doubt.
Are you still living in the 90s? Seriously, where have you been? Hyundai puts out some very quality cars these days, probably up there with Ford in quality, better than GM or Chrysler.
You left off the world's largest maker of electronic components, Foxconn of Taiwan. Also the world's leading motherboard manufacturer, Asustek, also of Taiwan.
All of these companies are just cheap manufacturers. Asus does do some innovation in-house, as do others like Acer. HTC is probably the closest thing to a real tech company, as opposed to a parts assembler.
You have to realize that putting together electronics is cheap labor. It doesn't require significant skill, and accordingly the wages will not be at a level where American workers compete.
But tell me, how many Intel chip fabs are in the far East? How about India? These are the jobs and factories we want, not jobs that entail screwing motherboards into cases.
Angelyne:
No, they're not, because that's not what's happening. Kind of a weird question for a Chinese scientist working for Pfizer in China to be asking, don't you think? Or a Chinese programmer working for Microsoft, or a Chinese engineer working for you-name-it? Or more and more, any of the above working for the up-and-coming home-grown competitors of those companies? (Though I have heard more than one unemployed, technically skilled American ask the question you're attributing to others.)
No, you don't get it. Are there Chinese and Indian engineers working in American companies here? Sure, but they're here, paying our taxes. That's fine.
Where are the big R&D houses in China or India? They don't exist. They *are* asking these questions because they *make* all the end-product stuff, but they don't have anything like Google or Apple, where the actual value is created through innovation. Do you think Foxconn would prefer to make actual iPhones or to create and sell them?
The innovation in tech is still happening in Silicon Valley, Washington, and Texas. There are definitely great Asian tech companies (Samsung, Sony, etc.), but real innovation in high tech is happening in the US. Researched here, designed here, developed here, manufactured somewhere else. Trust me, China would kill to develop a homegrown Apple instead of getting Apple's manufacturing contracts.
This looks like a pretty easy equation. A massive increase in irresponsible unfunded spending over the last two years resulted in massive record setting increases in the deficit over the same two years. It looks superficially as easy to understand as 2 + 2 = 4. That would be wrong. It is actually an example of "scared voters not thinking clearly".
Blue@9: No, you don't get it. Are there Chinese and Indian engineers working in American companies here? Sure, but they're here, paying our taxes. That's fine.
?!? There are no Chinese and Indian engineers doing higher-end work in China and India? There is no serious investment in R&D in China and India, public and private? Seriously, what can I say but, "?!?"? Been avoiding the business pages for the last ten years, have you?
Trust me, China would kill to develop a homegrown Apple instead of getting Apple's manufacturing contracts.
Of course they would - why do you think they've been assiduously following a course of promoting (requiring, really) both manufacturing *and* technology and knowledge transfer to China, from companies that want to do business in China? Because they intend to eventually move into the big leagues themselves, both for domestic consumption and for the global market.
Industries take time to build, long-term planning, and the build-up and maintenance of "institutional knowledge". You don't get things like Apple overnight, and you lose them if the conditions for creating them disappear. Even enthusiastic offshorers begin to reexamine the wisdom of the old saw that "innovation starts on the shop floor", among other things. Note in particular:
"That’s a problem. A new industry needs an effective ecosystem in which technology knowhow accumulates, experience builds on experience, and close relationships develop between supplier and customer. The U.S. lost its lead in batteries 30 years ago when it stopped making consumer-electronics devices. Whoever made batteries then gained the exposure and relationships needed to learn to supply batteries for the more demanding laptop PC market, and after that, for the even more demanding automobile market. U.S. companies didn’t participate in the first phase and consequently weren’t in the running for all that followed. I doubt they will ever catch up.
[...]
How could the U.S. have forgotten? I believe the answer has to do with a general undervaluing of manufacturing -- the idea that as long as “knowledge work” stays in the U.S., it doesn’t matter what happens to factory jobs. It’s not just newspaper commentators who spread this idea.
(And, slightly OT but pertinent:
You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal because the high-value work -- and much of the profits -- remain in the U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work -- and masses of unemployed?
One problem with the out-dated New Economy notions you're still hawking is that they assume the U.S. is Lake Wobegon.)
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