Milwaukee County executive Scott Walker, the Republican candidate for governor, has denounced the train as a Big Government boondoggle, and has vowed to send the money [$810 million] back to Washington if he's elected. He has even launched a website, www.notrain.com, attacking Obama and his opponent, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, for supporting the new line. Walker and Barrett don't agree on much, but they agree that high-speed rail is a defining issue in their campaign.
October 29, 2010
"High-Speed Rail Goes Off the Tracks in Wisconsin."
We cheered out loud over that headline.
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241 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 241 of 241(The Crypto Jew)
While Republicans want to denigrate the ability of Americans to do better-- how could we possibly run clean, efficient trains, as a lefty, I continue to hope and believe that we can do better!
Funny that’s what Lefties said about National Health Care, too…”Sure in Europe it’s costly and bureaucratic, but we’re AMERICANS, we can do it better.” Yeah, let’s ignore the REALITY and place our bets on the idea that this time it will be different, even though AMTRAK doesn’t work well now, but I’m sure we’ll do better THIS time….
"The DOT estimated a one way ticket from Madison to Mlke would range between $22-$33. The Hiawatha from Mlke to Chicago is currently $22."
OK, you need those kind of figures to do a ridership survey. But to do a financial boondoggle survey, you also need to know what the actual operating cost is; attracting my riders by dropping the farebox price thus requiring an even higher subsidy, doesn't necessarily make sense.
if only we had high speed rail we might be able to cut the time from New York to Chicago from 19 1/2 hours down to, maybe, 12? As opposed to 2 for air travel?
If we could match the cheese eating surrender monkeys, the trip would take five hours, as opposed to two and a half hours (westbound).
Gabriel,
"... or take their nine grams."
Wouldn't taking their 124 grains be more the soviet way?
(The Crypto Jew)
While Republicans want to denigrate the ability of Americans to do better-- how could we possibly run clean, efficient trains, as a lefty, I continue to hope and believe that we can do better!
FLS, the CESM use a SPECIAL TRACK, with SPECIAL Rolling stock, that is extremely costly…
“LGV construction is similar to that of normal railway lines, but with a few key differences. The radii of curves are larger so that trains can traverse them at higher speeds without increasing the centripetal acceleration felt by passengers. The radii of LGV curves have historically been greater than 4 km (2.5 mi). New lines have minimum radii of 7 km (4.3 mi) to allow for future increases in speed.”
“LGVs are reserved primarily for TGVs. One reason for this is that capacity is sharply reduced when trains of differing speeds are mixed. Passing freight and passenger trains also constitute a safety risk, as cargo on freight cars can be destabilised by the air turbulence caused by the TGV.”
In short, IF you’re willing to lay new lines and employ wholly new rolling stock, we can catch up with the French…of course that’s going to cost WAY NORTH of $800 Million!
Yes, let's spend hundreds of billions to turn a 2 hour plane flight into a 5 hour train ride. Progressivism in a nutshell.
"Dust Bunny Queen, you miss the point of Comrade Cook's statements. He's implying that, in the circumscribed future that exists in his dreams, you will not be allowed to live the "insane", wasteful lifestyle you're currently enjoying. Public transportation will not come to you, you will be required to come to public transportation.
I say this as a non-driver who actually uses public transportation regularly, in New York City. It makes sense here, and our system is one of the most heavily used in the world, and yet we're still constantly in the red, with crumbling infrastructure and grotesque mismanagement and enormous costs, all thanks to Comrade Cook's fellow travelers, the unions and the political class here in New York."
Wrong.
It's not that in the circumscribed future (that I consider to be likely) we will "not be permitted" to make certain choices but that those choices won't be available, because the resources that allow us to make those choices won't be available.
As for the MTA (NY's mass trasit authority) constantly being in the red, I personally assume this to be a result entirely of management corruption. After all, no one has ever been prosecuted or even investigated, as far as I know, for the discovery a few years back that the MTA was keeping two sets of books...and the second set was not a backup for the first, (for non-NYers here), but an alternative set with, ahem, different figures.
@Robert Cook:
I personally assume this to be a result entirely of management corruption.
Which DBQ pointed out:
thanks to Comrade Cook's fellow travelers, the unions and the political class
who ARE the management of the MTA.
(The Crypto Jew)
As for the MTA (NY's mass trasit authority) constantly being in the red, I personally assume this to be a result entirely of management corruption.
But again, mis-management would NEVER occur in any other Mass Transit System…and again you keep talking about there not being the option…well Dood/doodette we’ve been running out of oil for the last 50-100 years. And yet, we still have oil and lots of it.
@FLS, Maguro beat me to it, but I have to ask.
Did you ever meet a dollar you didn't want to spend? I mean does the notion that we're already out of money penetrate?
@FLS:
France is 600 miles across. Twice the size of Colorado with 65 million people in it.
If the US were the size of France this would be a whole different conversation.
"...who ARE the management of the MTA."
The unions have no management involvement in the MTA.
(The Crypto Jew)
The unions have no management involvement in the MTA.
Yes and no, they don’t “manage” but they certainly influence the operations thru work rules and pay, health care and pension costs.
@Robert Cook:
The unions have no management involvement in the MTA.
Right, the management involves them in no way. I'm sure that they are unlike any other part of the public sector in that regard.
And the goverment is fundamentally responsible for the management of MTA, so if the management is corrupt whose fault is it?
And of course the unions engage in no political activity whatever and have no influence with the government of New York.
AlphaLiberal said...
Yes, we should continue to put all of our eggs into the OIL basket, because everybody knows that oil will never run short, will always be cheap and we can count on our friends in OPEC to take care of us.
God intended that we travel by car or big f-en truck every where we go. It's right there in the Book of Hysterical Right Wing Lunacy.
If we follow conservative policies we will found our economy on oil even more as it runs scarce.
I actually bet myself that AlphaLiar wouldn't come into this thread because there is no way he could come into a thread like this and win (not that he wins at anything anyway) and lo and behold instead of trying to argue the merits of high-speed rail between Madison and Milwaukee, he instead lays down a pathetic diatribe about oil.
Dude, seriously, when do you realize that the shit you say isn't even in the realm of reality? You can't even tell the truth about oil. How much longer are you going to continue to be a liar? You pathologically lie about everything. I'm sure your entire life is a lie as well. I bet when you were hatched, instead of crying WAHHHHH!!! you lied about that and instead cried, "BAHHHHH!"
Get over it liar. You know you've been exposed as nothing but a liar. One day, your identity will be known and on that day, your life will be exposed for the lie that it is. And if I can help in that endeavor, I will certainly try. I want to see you destroyed for the pathetic pile of offal you really are. It will happen and that goes for the rest of your cadre on here too. Believe it.
let's spend hundreds of billions to turn a 2 hour plane flight into a 5 hour train ride
Alpha's the advocate -- I'm just pointing out facts. Like the fact that the jet stream adds half an hour to the westbound flight.
Robert Cook said...
I asked why a high speed rail proposal would be a bad idea.
In your communist world view it isn't because you can simply force the current residents that live along the two proposed corridors that you would 'love' to see a high-speed rail system go through would be summarily removed via Eminent Domain (a.k.a Kelo), then the process would be completely hamstrung because your ideological kook-ilk on the environmental coalitions would demand EIS's ad nauseum, which would further inflate the cost and time to production of such a rail, then considering that it's the North-East corridor you are talking about, the you would have punitive union contract negotiations between regions since they would be the only people allowed to work on such a project. Thusly, prevailing wages would be further conflated with budget/timeline overruns ad nauseum, with even more lawsuits to oppose, lawsuits to stop the opposition, and so on. So by the time that this thing actually sees a single train on it, much less a passanger, it probably will have taken several decades (which by the way, I hope you die to never see it) and have cost many more times what the initial proposal called for.
Just so you can pleasure yourself to the idea that you are actually going from one shitty north-eastern shithole city another even more craptastic north-eastern shithole city, with that dumb, douchebag self-satisfied smug expression on your face as you read Das Kapital for the umpteenth time and wonder how the world rejected such wonderous ideas.
That's why it's a bad idea you stupid, self-entitled, cunt.
former law student said...
Alpha's the advocate -- I'm just pointing out facts. Like the fact that the jet stream adds half an hour to the westbound flight.
Do you think the jetstream is some static, monolothic, wind-artifice that is solely made to add a half-hour to western flights? It moves around moron. Secondly, you are ON A FUCKING PLANE!!! You know, FLYING IN THE AIR FOR WHICH YOU HAVE NO WAY OF GETTING OFF UNTIL YOU LAND!!! God damn it, you people are just stupid motherfuckers. You really are.
Robert Cook said...
"...who ARE the management of the MTA."
The unions have no management involvement in the MTA.
Bullshit they don't. Tell that to my buddy who left that fucked up organization doing cryptographic work for the lovely island of St. Croix. He was there 5 years. Long enough to get vested, took his 1 year union mandated sabbatical and bailed. Who the fuck do you think your kidding, jack-hole.
It moves around moron. Secondly, you are ON A FUCKING PLANE!!!
It blows from west to east. So, going west takes 25% longer than it takes to go east. This doesn't happen on the ground.
I swear to god, if brains were gunpowder, several of you wouldn't have enough to blow your nose.
Did you ever meet a dollar you didn't want to spend? I mean does the notion that we're already out of money penetrate?
The 800 million [impossible to get federal dollars], if not accepted by Scott Walker, will just be accepted by another state. That's what people in this state don't seem to understand. They will be paying for some other state's rail! And instead of accepting that 800 million that would create 13000 jobs, we are going to spend 1 billion on just a 45 mile stretch of highway. Take that money you goddam idiot.
People like cars.
they can listen to the music they want
they can have the window down or up
they can choose their route
they can eat or drink
they can just be theirselves
Mass transit is good for what it does, but as long as you're trying to force people into crowded, smelly, dirty, jumping and humping trains, light rail, and busses, you'll have a hard sell.
Mass transit is good for what it does,
Could not agree more. I don't even use it.
but as long as you're trying to force people into crowded, smelly, dirty, jumping and humping trains, light rail, and buses, you'll have a hard sell.
No one is forcing anyone to ride trains or buses.
former law student said...
It moves around moron. Secondly, you are ON A FUCKING PLANE!!!
It blows from west to east. So, going west takes 25% longer than it takes to go east. This doesn't happen on the ground.
No shit, it blows from east to west fuckwit, but it eddies and flows, oscillates and moves around. That's why westbound aircraft try to avoid it if they can. Which implies, dipshit, that it can be avoided.
Not all planes are affected by it based on their altitudes. And a 25% longer trip still means YOU ARE MOVING FASTER THAN A HIGH SPEED RAIL TRAIN!!! I don't know what's worse, the stick in your ass or someones dick always in your mouth. You aren't that bright. No really, you aren't.
I swear to god, if brains were gunpowder, several of you wouldn't have enough to blow your nose.
Oh wow, did you just make that up? That's so clever, retards and AlphaLiar are already scribbling it down for future use.
garage mahal said...
The 800 million [impossible to get federal dollars], if not accepted by Scott Walker, will just be accepted by another state. That's what people in this state don't seem to understand. They will be paying for some other state's rail! And instead of accepting that 800 million that would create 13000 jobs, we are going to spend 1 billion on just a 45 mile stretch of highway. Take that money you goddam idiot.
Typical redistributionist tripe. Oh, someone is going to get the money, why not us. Only to have you jackoffs take other peoples money, build money pit projects with it as if somehow that will be the end of it, while completely neglecting the total deficits and losses that will require continued subsidies in the form of higher taxation to maintain said redistribution. Between you and your girlfriend, FLS, you both are fighting for the last neurons that are keeping your pathetic lives going. Both of you should just walk off a cliff holding hands while singing Eddie Money's Two Tickets to Paradise.
But the high speed trains are so shiny and new. And sometimes they can go really fast.
In light of those attributes, does anyone really care what they cost? Or if anyone will ride on them?
garage, as usual, misses the point - we may not be forced to ride those abominations on wheels, but we are forced to pay for them.
The only benefit that a train would offer between the two cities, provided that it stopped in front of Miller Park, would be the ability to go to a Brewer game from Madison. All 81 home games. You could get rip roaring drunk and not have to drive (except when you got to Madison) home. You could get sick and hurl beer and brats all over the train and not have to clean it up yourself. Win-win.
Why don't we just keep the $810 million, not build the train, and tell Washington to fuck off?
Short line "high speed" trains are the rage of planners who want to get their foot into the funding door so that we can have choo choos everywhere. Then liberals like RV can ride right next to them and show their grandkids. They can show them the back of the train which used to be the caboose and then the cars and then the engine. Because he will be going faster than the train and will arrive before it arrives and when he arrives he will have his handy can right there under his ass. Because he is not stupid.
Trains are for communnists!
Everybody knows this.
and people who can spell!
We could take some of the $810 million dollars and send master cylinder to spelling school.
From what I can gather, conservatives hate trains because:
1. Liberals like them/may get credit for them
2. Union Jobs.
3. Not the "right kind of people" ride trains.
http://meteorology.lyndonstate.edu/content/weather/data_jetstream.php
Q. How do you avoid this jet stream, which is hundreds of miles wide?
A. You fly hundreds of miles around it, which makes your flight duration longer.
Sheesh.
And a 25% longer trip still means YOU ARE MOVING FASTER
Ah, I see the comprehension problem. The topic was the relative speed advantage of the plane vs. high speed rail. We were all pretty much agreed that the plane can fly faster than any train. But the assertion was that the ratio was 6:1, when it actually should be 2:1.
ypical redistributionist tripe. Oh, someone is going to get the money, why not us. Only to have you jackoffs take other peoples money, build money pit projects with it as if somehow that will be the end of it, while completely neglecting the total deficits and losses that will require continued subsidies in the form of higher taxation to maintain said redistribution.
Well, at least liberals build things here, unlike you guys who send billions to build things in shitholes across the globe. Quite lying, you don't care about the money. You care who it's benefiting.
@garage, when it comes to numbers put out by a Democrat administration you are one of the most gullible people on the face of the earth.
13,000 jobs? What is the basis of estimate for that number? How many of them are permanent (i.e., the state will have to start paying those salaries)? How much will the state of Wisconsin have to pay for upkeep of the roadbed (and for high speed the roadbed has to be very carefully maintained)? How many years before the people of Wisconsin will have spent vastly more than the $800M just so a handful of Milwaukee residents can take the train to Wisconsin football games 6 times a year?
You rely on rideship estimates that have no BoE attached to them, you rely on job estimates that have no BoE. Is there anything coming out of the current administration where you are ready to express any skepticism whatsoever?
Garage, Fls -
Serious question: is there any amount of money you think would be "too much" to spend on this project? It seems to me that you are not considering opportunity costs at all. Do you suppose this is simply free money?
If they build these trains, may I suggest that they follow Europe in having stations UNDER the airport. This means you fly into Zurich or Frankfurt, and you can immediately connect into the rail network.
Trains are a little slower, but they are more relaxing than flying. Plus you can see the scenery.
There's probably a sweet spot for distance - say under 40 minutes flying time, where trains can work. That should be the focus - if not, then dont build 'em.
Also, how about train car ferries - i.e. drive your car onto a train? Is that just crazy?
Reading the thread many acknowledge the unbearable subsidies needed to keep these trains running will be an automatic Guarantee that the system will never operate. No one in the government Mafia cares one bit about that. You see the 7 years of design and build process creates mega contracts at mega bucks all magically going to the politicos friends. The Bond attorney's fees alone will be 25 million for some paper work. Guess whose attorneys get that legal graft? Then when it is over the pols tell us that "UNEXPECTEDLY" the project is dead on arrival. But they have a huge new one ready to take its place. Anyone for a a million worthless windmills?
People are 100% correct that $800 million to connect Madison to Milwaukee doesn't make sense.
However, that's never been the full scope of the project. That $800 million also connects Madison (and the western suburbs) to Chicago and Mitchell Airport. Which shifts the economics of a fare when you figure in parking and tolls.
Of course, politicians are awful about talking about engineering projects. They don't talk about rates of return. Or the actual plan. But perceived plans and dogma. One thing about engineering, math has to add up. And models have to work. I'd suggest taking a look at the actual plan at the WDOT website, with calculations and cost/benefit analysis, but we're talking politics here.
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