[T]his is preposterous — a function of liberal cowardice and conservative discomfort.... [Obama has] told us that one of his criteria for a Supreme Court Justice is knowing what it feels like to be on the wrong side of legal discrimination. Well: does he view Kagan's possible life-experience as a gay woman relevant to this? Did Obama even ask about it? Are we ever going to know one way or the other? Does she have a spouse? Is this spouse going to be forced into the background in a way no heterosexual spouse ever would be?
May 10, 2010
"Is Obama actually going to use a Supreme Court nominee to advance the cause of the closet...?"
Asks Andrew Sullivan.
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95 comments:
"[Obama has] told us that one of his criteria for a Supreme Court Justice is knowing what it feels like to be on the wrong side of legal discrimination."
Could I ask for a couple of examples of how BO faced legal discrimination.
Is she gay or is Sullivan just assuming she is based on stereotype? (i.e., single woman, never been married, etc. etc.)
Who cares if she's gay?
Sullivan's AIDS-onset dementia is so sad.
It's an irrelevant discussion. She can't be gay. The WH told us it was a Scurrilous slur to make that statement, even in a favorable context.
If there is one thing that's important, it's that the American people get honesty from the WH :)
What BHO is really saying is that he is going to nominate people whose lifestyle begs to be questioned but will not. The Sword of Damoclese with racism, homophobia, etc/ engraved on the blade is waiting to be dropped on the neck of anyone who dares bring the taboo subject up.
This is rule by tyranny under the loin cloth of poltical correctness. Let's see who has the stones to bring it up during questioning.
Andrew is paranoid and tends to see all these massive preposterous dilemmas that aren't.
Kagan isn't a lesbian, so he has no problem. He also seems to always have a woman at the center of these angry fantasies.
No one really thinks she's a lesbian, right? At least no one serious. Some journalist goofed, admitted it was a goof that wasn't meant to be insulting.
Obama attempted to play it up as some kind of right wing slur, but no one really bought it. It's a punchline now, of course, since Kagan is not attractive and she's older and single. But lots of people working in that circle are single (And lots of them are accused of being gay for some reason).
No, Andrew, you don't have to be a lesbian to be an unmarried adult woman. I realize you have to freak out every couple of weeks to get some attention, though.
And yet we have been told by many that she is gay ... and no one will ask directly if this is true and no one in the administration will tell us definitively.
That's a bit odd, perhaps, but it's her business, not Sullivan's. If she wants to be private about it, that's her right. And, for that matter, if someone Jewish wanted to be private about his (or her) religion, that would be his right too. Sullivan may think it is "odd, bizarre, anachronistic, even arguably self-critical or self-loathing," but I certainly don't have that reaction. I may be a loudmouth online, but offline, I try not to advertise the fact that I am an atheist -- it's a private matter. And the only time my vague adherence to Confucianism has ever come up outside of private contexts is when I took some time off work to perform the rites for my late grandfather. There's no call to force it on other people with a big show. This doesn't mean I'm ashamed.
Sullivan's past claims about the morally corrupting effect of being in the closet pretty much compel him to care whether a nominee who denies being gay is hiding something.
Why is Ms Kagan's sexuality even an issue--since she has not been a judge, there is no basis for making any determinations with respect to judicial temperament. Her scholarship can speak for itself. Sullivan is a fool and continues to beclown himself. There seems to me to be sufficient yardsticks by which to make judgments about Ms Kagan's credentials--her sexuality is not one of them.
Gads. You have to hand it to Sully - he is singleminded in his spittle-flecked obsessions...
The far more important issues are the fact that this person has never once ever even been a judge and as Dean of her law school she willfully disobeyed the law by refusing to allow military recuiters onto her campus.
For these reasons - her deliberate lawlessness and her complete lack of any prior experience as a judge - disqualify her for the a lifetime appointment as a judge.
She is also obese. And that shows a troubling lack of restraint that we should all pause and consider. After all, we'll all be paying for the obesity-related health care Ms. Kagan will require going forward as a member of the court. She will be an expensive person to treat owing to her inability to pass up even one bacon-double-cheeseburger.
I could care less if she munches carpet. But she seriously needs to stop munching the super-sized fries.
Sullivan has this tendency to look at everything in terms of sexuality.
How bloody myopic.
[Obama has] told us that one of his criteria for a Supreme Court Justice is knowing what it feels like to be on the wrong side of legal discrimination.
Well that limits the pool, doesn't it?
And so we keep chugging along the predicatable liberal feel-good-feel-bad feel feel feel tracks.
I work in a field full of FEELINGS. It's not the way to justice or to good governance or good marriage.
You can't have accountability in a world where everyone's feelings rule. So if a white male is victimized by a minority person who was discriminated against sometime in her life, the law gets kicked to the curb, huh?
@Moose:
"Gads. You have to hand it to Sully - he is singleminded in his spittle-flecked obsessions..."
If Andrew Sullivan wasn't gay, he would be nothing. Those obsessions are his meal ticket.
My god people even lesbians have standards! She's totally a loner whether she prefers cock or pussy.
Hell, if Andrew Sullivan wasn't gay, he would be David Broder.
"That's a bit odd, perhaps, but it's her business, not Sullivan's."
Apparently Sullivan forgot how much he used to dislike "out-ers" like Michelangelo Signorile. Now he realizes, like Signorile, that outing people is a useful political weapon. Who cares if it's immoral and invasive and plays upon shame and anti-gay feelings? Sullivan abandoned all pretense to morality quite a while ago, right around when he started his gynecological examination of Sarah Palin.
So now Dr Sullivan has a new patient in Kagan. Prepare the speculum, another woman is about to get probed.
But isn't the real question we should all be asking:
Is Elena Kagan the real mother of Trig Palin?
Except that David Broder writes better.
Jeeez this guy is never satisfied.
Why can’t he just be happy that he nominated someone else who is very interested in Sarah Palin’s vagina?
"Except that David Broder writes better."
And sucks one hell of a cock.
But isn't the real question we should all be asking:
Is Elena Kagan the real mother of Trig Palin?
/thread over
Go fuck yourself Andy.
@Palladian: The long-running feud between Michaelangelo Signorile and Andrew Sullivan was a duel to see who could be more judgmental and sanctimonious. They're both divas, and divas can get tedious quickly.
Michael Musto does the outing thing better. He's sort of a gay leftist Jonah Goldberg.
Sully does indeed hate "outers" unless he's trying to do the outing. Charlie Crist comes to mind.
I think that is summed up by the word "hypocrisy".
Sullivan is insane, as usual, but this is a pretty cynical choice for Obama. Kagan is just another member of the Hyde Park Socialists Club, but instead of actually discussing her qualifications (or lack thereof) those who question her suitability for the highest court in the land will simply be accused of anti-gay bigotry.
Much like those who don't wish for the U.S. to follow Europe off the cliff into the abyss of Socialism are simply accused of racism.
@Ham: I wouldn't know. :)
'..does he view Kagan's possible life-experience as a gay woman relevant to this? '
But she's apparently lived her private live, gay or straight or bisexual or asexual, as just that, a private part of her being.
As such, she's had no discrimination to face.
Perhaps she doesn't enjoy sex. Or need it. Or views it as an ancillary or tangential part of her life. Human beings are a bit more complex than Sullivan wants them to be.
The old Sullivan knew some of this; the new Sullivan is just lost.
Anyway, what're her views on the commerce clause? Or the rights of alien terrorists? Et cetera, et cetera.
Those are the views that will affect us. Not who she does or doesn't share her bed and life with.
New "Hussein" Ham said...
"She is also obese. And that shows a troubling lack of restraint that we should all pause and consider."
Ohhhh let's boil her in oil and render her out and hope that the other two fatties on the court, Thomas and Scalia jump in there to save her.
You are a deeply trouble person to write such gunk.
Sullivan turned on Bush over this. I wonder if he will turn on *The One*? :-)
so let me get this straight (no pun intended): Sullivan intends to force Elena Kagan on the record about a personal matter that, as far as I know, she has never chosen to publicly comment on ? And for what -- to make himself feel better ? So that he and other people with the same political agenda as him can try to goad her into pushing their agenda ?
why does he try to cover up his own agenda with the red herrings of asking questions about relevant life-experience, and does Obama know, and comparing this issue to no disclosing one's faith ? He just really wants to know if she's gay for his own selfish reasons. he apparently doesn't care about whether or not she gets confirmed, which is what she clearly wants. what a prick !
I think this woman is perfectly capable and absolutely justified in sharing/not sharing whatever she wants, and if she has a spouse that she chooses to keep out of the public eye, then that is her choice -- no one is forcing her there !
@Moose: Agreed. Outing only happens if your politics are "wrong." If you're a Democrat, nobody in the media will ever be allowed even to speculate; a phenomenon that is a tremendous blessing for a senior Senator representing a state that is known for cheese and cannibals.
If Kagan is gay, why wasn't I told first!?
The Times Square bomber got U.S. citizenship and this whackjob Sullivan can't. Heh thank God we still maintain some standards.
And the U.S. gets a ton of bonus points because it has to be killing Sullivan.
Garage--because you arent in the loop!need to get plugged in guy!
:)
Personally, I do not care if she is a lesbian, heterosexual, bisexual, or into bestiality.
But what I would like is for the left to make up their collective minds -- is being gay an issue or not? I mean, the only one in 2004 who seemed to care that Chenney's daughter was a lesbian was John Kerry.
If his HIV status is the only thing that is keeping Sullivan from becoming a citizen, then he ought to get his U.S. passport.
I had a lesbian aunt. She and her partner got us the best Christmas presents. :)
"Ohhhh let's boil her in oil and render her out ..."
That could get really greasy.
Look ... obese people such as Ms. Kagan demonstrate through their obesity that they are obsessive compulsive and unable to restrain themselves. Her poor health is a threat to the national deficit ... and her fatness is totally an appropriate subject for discussion since you lefty's now force me to help pay for her medical care.
Obese people consume outsized resources. She consumes more than her fair share. Her obesity is unsustainable. She is consuming planetary resources at a far greater rate than someone who cares about our planet's future. She is not green.
I won't vote for these obese people, and I do not want obese people to be eligible to work for the government. Since they consume inordinate and extraordinary amounts of our limited health care dollars, we should be rationing the care we give to these people. After all, they have the ability within themselves to simply restrain their gluttony, but choose not to.
She's eaten at our trough long enough don't you think?
We don't need judges who have demonstrated with absolute clarity an inability to restrain themselves ... but Ms. Kagan has never even been a judge.
So, she's fat and inexperienced.
Hardly Supreme Court material.
Wow... the decent into identity politics is swift. Don't you think we ought to wait 24 hours after the nomination to speculate on her sexual orientation and private love life?
What a strange country America is! The President tosses a closeted gay to the country, and we all eat up the fresh political meat right on cue!
America is pathetic. We Americans deserve the totalitarian government that we are going to get because we can't think for ourselves. We do whatever the institutions tell us to do, believe what they tell us to believe, think however they tell us to think.
For the first time ever in the history of the world..... I actually have to agree with something hdhouse has to say.
THE APOCLAPSE IS HERE!!!!!
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!!!!
"If his HIV status is the only thing that is keeping Sullivan from becoming a citizen, then he ought to get his U.S. passport."
It isn't. It's also the fact that he is a criminal and continues to flout our nation's drug laws even after he's been caught.
We have enough drug addicts in America.
Send Andrew Sullivan back to England and let them deal with his criminal drug problem.
If she is, as I said earlier, I don't think it's gonna save the homosexual vote for him.
If Harriet Miers was disqualified because she never sat on the bench, then so is Ms. Kagan. Where she is currently seems to be the result of her Haavahd connections - and do we want any more of them?
Jim Hu said...
But isn't the real question we should all be asking:
Is Elena Kagan the real mother of Trig Palin?
Shhh. Sully may hear you.
PS As to Ms Kagan's weight, I still say she is a good looking woman, if you look at some of her earlier photos. She's picked up some weight (like everybody else) and she's one of those people who doesn't wear it at all well, but that's her problem. Let the lady alone on the personal stuff.
Apropos the discussion of Ms Kagan's physicality--in the future we should require a full frontal nudity shot of all nominees
saracasm off
Barry O. does seem to like to appoint women who look like fireplugs, huh.
I have had the honor of having Justice Sotomayor shop in my store and I would be honored if future Justice Kagan would shop there as well.
Fine apparel makes no political distinctions.
She is far from obese by the way. Looks to be about a size 18 or 20.
The persistent attempt to class homosexuals as oppressed victims, in the manner of blacks under Jim Crow, is absolute nonsense.
We should have stopped listening to this spoiled child bitching a long time ago.
Sullivan is a silly, spoiled man.
One more thang:
Kagan is defenseless because she's a woman.
She's double-defenseless because she is probably gay and was outed before Obama shoved her back into the closet.
You have to be careful with double-defenseless people... put forth a justified political attack and you might be made to look like the aggressive fat-ass old white Republicans that everybody hated back in 2008.
See how it works, folks? If Kagan is attacked, and especially if her gayness is thrust into public view, Obama wins. Sullivan has already taken the bait.
If Kagan is not seriously attacked and is confirmed, Obama wins.
The bottom line: Obama wins!
Notice how effectively the whole situation has been orchestrated!
But what I would like is for the left to make up their collective minds -- is being gay an issue or not? I mean, the only one in 2004 who seemed to care that Chenney's daughter was a lesbian was John Kerry.
If you recall, John Edwards seemed to think it important, too.
Roger J. said...
in the future we should require a full frontal nudity shot of all nominees
Profiles might be better, to see how the nominee measures up
You are not being fair. President Obama won the election. He is entitled to choose someone who thinks the way he does. Someone who hates our miltary, capitalism and the basic underpinnings of our nation that where created by dead white men.
I hope she's a closet conservative.
@shoutingthomas: I am visualising you saying what you wrote with a lisp, flipping your limp wrists around... :)
I got an email from some right wing nut group called Christian Response that says "Obama nominates Lesbian Elena Kagan to Supreme Court".
So we know the Christian Conservatives oppose her. But they would.
She is also obese. And that shows a troubling lack of restraint that we should all pause and consider.
(and many later comments)
As always Hambone you eloquently elevate the dialog at that this blog.
I can only hope that as with your avatar your are simply a satirical cartoon.
It's David Souter and George HW Bush all over again. All straights get married -- that's how you can tell the straights from the gays.
@shoutingthomas: I am visualising you saying what you wrote with a lisp, flipping your limp wrists around... :)
Straight out of Rhetoric 101!
So much of our political discourse is the truisms of Rhetoric 101 carried through life by those who cannot accept that college is really over.
Here are the immutable axioms of Rhetoric 101:
1. Cars are bad.
2. The U.S. is an imperialist country.
3. Whites are the cause of all black peoples' problems.
4. Your parents beat up and killed homosexuals.
5. Republicans are bad and they never have sex.
6. Everybody who doesn't kiss homosexuals' asses and agree that they are oppressed is a closeted homosexual.
Yes, the ageless wisdom of Rhetoric 101! Your Freshman rhetoric teacher thought your essay was brilliant!
@New Hussein Ham
There might be some justification in the "fat people cost me money for their health care" line as to the poor, but Ms. Kagan is, like any Law School Dean (especially one with no family to support), wealthy enough to pay plenty of taxes and her own health insurance. If anything, she's probably subsidizing you.
So shove it.
(I'm a fat person who pays over 50% of my income per year to various governments in taxes, and I pay for my own health insurance. I'm kind of sick of this line, for obvious reasons.)
I have had the honor of having Justice Sotomayor shop in my store
That is very very cool. Did she buy patterns or plain colors? I see her in aubergine.
"I see her in aubergine."
I only see her in black. Hell, all of them wear plus-sized black dresses. They could all shop in Trooper York's store.
"As always Hambone you eloquently elevate the dialog at that this blog.
I can only hope that as with your avatar your are simply a satirical cartoon."
If you want to find a way to make Ham's numerous and vituperative comments entertaining, try imagining them spoken by Eric Cartman.
I think Ham is Eric Cartman.
MM: "I see her in aubergine." O MM, no! How could you? Everything about Sotomayor positively screams, "fuliginous."
Actually she got a purse. We actually have the best accesories in Brooklyn. Bar none.
I would not talk about what clothing she bought. That would not be cool.
I will tell you that Gabby Sidibe had her stylist get our
power dress to wear when she delivered her monolouge on Saturday Night Live. She also wore our New Melissa dress in all the publicity photos.
It is ok to talk about stuff that people wear in public, not so much for stuff they want to wear in private. Just Sayn
There is a famous historical personage who is rumored to hang out at a nearby bistro.
I hope to get her in the store.
That I will blog about.
With her permission of course.
I would like to get Justice Sotomayor in my West Side Story Dress!
Perfect for a wise Latina!
I would put Miss Kagan in my cap sleeve dress in lime for her hearings.
It would soften her image. Unfortunately I am sold out.
The far more important issues are the fact that this person has never once ever even been a judge and as Dean of her law school she willfully disobeyed the law by refusing to allow military recuiters onto her campus.
Forty of the Nation's justices, including Chief Justice Rehnquist, came to the Court without prior judicial experience. And a couple of them, including Justice Robert Jackson, who served as U.S. prosector for the Nuremberg Trials, didn't even graduate from law school.
The U.S. Supreme Court is not a trial court; it's an appellate court, which means that it decides cases largely on the basis of written submissions. An ability to read and write English is an important job requirement, but courtroom experience is not.
Here's a complete list of Supreme Court justices without prior judicial experience.
Dean Kagan did not "willfully disobey the law." The law -- specifically, the Solomon Amendment, 10 U.S.C. 983 -- did not require Ms. Kagan to admit military recruiters to Harvard's campus. Rather, it gave the Secretary of Defense the authority to deny federal money to Harvard if she refused to admit the recruiters.
Here's the court's opinion in Rumsfeld v. FAIR, in case the facts are of any interest to you.
First he was obsessed with what came or hasn't came out of Palin's vagina and now he's obsessed with what goes or doesn't goes inside Kagan's? I thought Sullivan likes penis... not that there's anything wrong with that.
Of course if Miss Kagan would like to signal her supporters as to her political views she could get this 3/4 sleeve Grecian Drape Dress in bright pink.
Or perhaps we might call it pinko, so to speak.
Privacy, Andrew, Privacy.
She is entitled to privacy about her sexual life even if she is nominated for the Supreme Court.
Why is this such a hard concept for so many people, liberal and conservative alike?
We need diversity on the court. How about a good looking woman - or even one that doesn't scare the cat or look like Frank Rich?
And please stop with the games. Kagan is GAY, not 'probably gay' or 'maybe gay'. G-A-Y. Good grief.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Matt said...
I got an email from some right wing nut group called Christian Response that says "Obama nominates Lesbian Elena Kagan to Supreme Court".
Actually Matt, as the web site of Christian Response points out, it's CBS News and Washington Post who said she is a lesbian.
Personally, I do not care whether she is a lesbian, nor do I think it has any particular bearing on whether she is qualified for the Supreme Court. I would far prefer that such matters be private if the individual involved so desires.
But I don't think it's just conservatives who are obsessed with her sexual preference.
Did Sullivan never consider that it's easier for an ambitious careerwoman to advance if she doesn't have some man to take care of?
I actually sort of agree with Sullivan, closeted folks who really want to stay there are extremely susceptible to blackmail. Look at the Brit security services during the Cold War.
That said, the word I get from folks at Hah-Vad is that it is pretty much an open secret, sort of like Anderson Cooper where a public figure's private friends and favorite bartenders all know the truth, but they don't make a big public deal about it. I'm fine if she does not want to make a big deal about her sexuality - the less I hear about who'd doing what to whom, the happier I am (excepting of course Victoria Secret models).
Homos ... there's just no satisfying them, is there?
Well, to be more precise ...
homos, muslims and feminists ...
there's just no satisfying them, is there?
Here's my only (and marginal) interest in Sullivan's blog/Kagan's sexuality: Will Obama dress down a left-wing blogger for the "outing" like he did the right-wing blogger? Or was it all faux outrage to score political points? Can you say "double standard"?
Kagan stated there is no constitutional right to same sex marriage.
Is she going to change once she gets on the Court? Isn't something like that nature as opposed to nurture?
There might be some justification in the "fat people cost me money for their health care" line -
I think the point is that since the First Lady's cause is Obesity, some might find it ironic that her husband chose such a woman.
Me? I could care less if she's fat or gay. Is she yet another marxist acolyte is what I want to know.
Of course, if she was a conservative she would be Borked. Since she's a liberal, all the GOP Senators will roll over for her, same as they did for Ginsburg.
Closet door open or closed .. Don't care much. When we were house shopping I didn't look in anybody's closets.
But
knowing what it feels like to be on the wrong side of legal discrimination
made me wonder what it might feel like to be on the right side of legal discrimination.
Or maybe on the wrong side of illegal discrimination
Or on the right side of illegal discrimination.
English is such a funny language.
How 'bout this for oppression? Not a single member of the court is a lawyer who graduated from a state college.
How in the world do we think an Ivy League court reflects the face of America?
Madam Althouse, please comment.....
Calling a politician fat or poorly dressed or gay as if it means anything is as retarded as throwing around "Nazi" or "fascist" at people you disagree with.
And that's pretty damn retarded.
Commenter "edutcher" called it right when he suggested Elena Kagan's problem is the same as Harriet Miers, a weight problem of a different kind: anorexic resumes.
Let Kagan get some more experience then nominate her. She seems like she'd be a pretty good choice after she's had a chance to build a little more well-rounded career.
All the personal attacks are BS.
There is a LOT of discrimination against graduates of the Princeton department of history who are from New York City, are unmarried and childless females with an Ivy League law degree who taught at an Ivy League law school ..
We'll now have TWO on the Supreme Court this background is _such_ a burden ...
Mian said...
Is she gay or is Sullivan just assuming she is based on stereotype? (i.e., single woman, never been married, etc. etc.)
Looks like Quagmire.
Let Kagan get some more experience then nominate her
Except for a year or two or four as Circuit Judge, Kagan's resume looks much like Roberts's, Scalia's, or Thomas's. A couple of years as Circuit Judge looks especially light for the Chief Justice.
former law student said...
Except for a year or two or four as Circuit Judge, Kagan's resume looks much like Roberts's,
Let's see:
Kagan years clerking: 2
Roberts tyears clerking: 2
Kagan Years private practice: 2
Roberts Years private practice: 16
Kagan Year academia: 18
roberts years academia: 0
Kagan years in SG office: 1
Roberts years in SG office: 4
Kagan number of cases argued in SCOTUS: 4
Roberts number of cases argued in SCOTUS: 39 (winning 25)
Kagan number of years as an appeals court judge: 0
Roberts number of years as an apeals court judge: 3
Kagan years in SG office: 1
Roberts years in SG office: 4
Tsk Tsk Tsk. Kagan was the SG while Roberts was just a Deputy.
And Roberts served on the DC Circuit from June 2, 2003 to September 29, 2005. When W. picked him to replace O'Connor he had barely two years of appellate experience.
Calling a politician fat or poorly dressed or gay as if it means anything is as retarded as throwing around "Nazi"
Maybe. But the people who are upset now are the same ones who stare down at their shoelaces everytime Rush is called fat.
So they dont deserve to be taken seriously.
edutcher said... If Harriet Miers was disqualified because she never sat on the bench, then so is Ms. Kagan.
I do not find not sitting on a bench as being an issue. I have no problem with an academic being appointed or someone from a government position. Kagan wins on both.
The issue with Harriet Miers is that she was unqualified. She should have been appointed to a District Court or maybe a Circuit other than the DC Circuit
I won't vote for these obese people
So you wouldn't have voted for Chris Christie? He may be obese, but he's sure putting New Jersey on a diet.
Ms. Althouse, your regular commenters are a herd of Gadarene swine who need to be directed to the nearest cliff.
Kagan's Friends: She's not Gay: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37114.html
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