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Why is it so inflammatory for the people of a state to deal with a problem of disorder within their own borders?
Even before she signed the bill at a 4:30 p.m. news conference here, President Obama strongly criticized it....
Saying the failure of officials in Washington to act on immigration would open the door to “irresponsibility by others,” he said the Arizona bill threatened “to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between police and our communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe.”
What is
irresponsible and
unfair about what Arizona did?
The law... would make the failure to carry immigration documents a crime. It would also give the police broad power to detain anyone suspected of being in the country illegally. Opponents have decried it as an open invitation for harassment and discrimination against Hispanics regardless of their citizenship status.
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276 comments:
1 – 200 of 276 Newer› Newest»So, you seem to write this post as if the idea of pandering were foreign to you...
Saying the failure of officials in Washington to act on immigration would open the door to “irresponsibility by others....
Let me translate for Obama and his elitist ilk:
national government in Washington DC: intelligent and good.
State and local government: stupid and bad.
Your paperz please. Vhere are your paperz!
Obama needs to look at Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution.
Once again, Obama is clueless.
And the usual partisan libtards line up against common sense and reason.
Papieren!!! Documyent!!!
I am for this in regards to Mexicans but not because of legal issues.
My focus is hot immigrants and Mexicans are the least hot therefore get them.
Don't touch the Brazillians though because they are really hot. I believe we need more citizens from Brazil.
I would be devastated if the Brazil guy that delivers my take out would be deported. He is so hot and it would be so wrong. We need more hot.
right, because enforcing the law = nazism.
Libtards.
Papieren! Dokumyenta!
They have a big problem in Arizona.
Brazil guys are mostly all bi too and don't think twice about sucking a hog. I am sterotyping yes but I believe this to be true based from my years of experience and research.
Fen is so non-partisan and intelligent he'd bring a tear to John McLaughlin's eye.
There could be an economic downside to this.
Who will now manicure the yards and clean the houses and pick our fresh organic fruit?
Fen will!
Obama's criticism of the bill is baxically another version of affirmative action law--that if you are Hispanic, it is racist to ask you for documents.
It is another example of how affirmative actin's moral entitlement of some categories of persons acts to destroy the moral basis of a truly pluralistic community.
Well, any law enforcement in which non-white people are arrested is racial profiling, and that's just evil.
Just to be clear: Obama's government can somehow require every last American to buy health insurance and police the amount of salt in everybody's dinner. It can adjust the planetary thermostat, and raise or lower the sea level at will. It can trim flab off the kiddies.
But it can't control the freaking border.
It does raise the question of what consequences fall upon Hispanic citizens when non-citizens are legally required to carry their papers.
There's no such thing as "work Americans won't do". Only work that Americans won't do at the rates that illlegal aliens will.
"Who will now manicure the yards and clean the houses and pick our fresh organic fruit?"
What do you mean "our" fresh organic fruit, Whitus Titus man?
I like the governor's hair.
She is much prettier than the dyke that had before.
I love the term from "farm to table" or something like that.
I also enjoy "free range".
And "grass fed".
It sounds all so humane even though you still cut their heads off and butcher them.
Meade, did you know that my husband does not like Obama either? Special hugs.
Anyway:
1. See peekURL.com/zbeevi7 (current federal law; resolves to uscis.gov): "Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him. Any alien who fails to comply with [these] provisions shall be guilty of a misdemeanor."
2. I put together a video of Obama's speech about immigration today, annotated with all the ways he's being misleading about this issue. If you trust him to tell you the truth, see the video.
3. One of the downsides of any discussion of immig. matters is that bloggers who know little or nothing about these issues start blathering. If you aren't familiar with these issues, check out my site. I have literally thousands of entries about the wider issue; for one starting point, see the very long list of illegal immigration supporting groups that I cover, and compare that coverage to that offered by r/w bloggers and others.
The "who will do this task" arguments are stupid to the point of hatefulness.
What are we supposed to do? Value cheap grapes and tidy lawns so much that we support a system that creates and sustains a victim class that has no legal recourse to the protections provided by the law?
Because someone has to pick our strawberries?
If we need the cheap labor that much, pass some decent wage laws that allow students and adults to take those jobs.
Or else stop pretending that it's about caring about people.
Did you all know that I was interviewed by the FBI before Blake Gottesman, Bush's former personal assistant, moved into my building.
It was kind of hot.
Yes, Bush's former ass't, Blake Gottesman lives in my building. His parents have a fab "cottage" in Kenneckbunkport.
In some small way this makes me really fab too.
Also, the loft/condos go for 700k plus and I am on the penthouse which makes me even more fab. Blake is on the third floor. I let him use my extra shit space. We park next to each other, he still has US plates.
Where do you live fellow republicans?
There is no divisive battle over immigration reform nationally. That's a hoax.
The vast majority of Americans want our borders properly policed, employers of illegal aliens arrested and those illegal immigrants in this country encouraged to leave by threat of arrest.
That's not divisive ... unless enforcing the laws of the United States is deemed "divisive."
There are 26 million people underemployed or completely unemployed because our cities are run amok with illegal immigrants undercutting our wages and reducing tax receipts.
The only divisive ones are the criminal aliens themselves, and those in our political elite who swear oaths of office promising to uphold our laws but instead work feverishly to undermine their enforcement.
They are the divisive individuals who need to be fucking slapped down.
Twice as hard.
And absolutely Obama's statement was about the failure of our government nannies to take care of our needs leading to vigilantism... problem is he thinks that applies to Federal/State relationships rather than state/citizen relationships.
Where do you live fellow republicans?
I live in a modest little stick house in rural Texas. But I don't have to blow anyone to live here.
And the guy who lives right next to me is a PHD at MIT in Japan shit.
He writes an article in Japanese on Newsweek. He is hot and has been on CNBC and some other international news programs. He is white though now Asian.
Across the hall are two fag real estate brokers that each make $250k a year.
And next to them is a doctor and a Harvard Law grad that works for some Law firm.
All in all really really fab.
Except the one required subsidized couple that live in the building and paid like 1/4 of what the rest of us paid and condo feels are also 1/4.
My condo fees along are $750.
Thank you. And I am a farmers daughter from Wisconsin who made it in the big city.
But let's get back and focus on illegal immigration. The cleaners in my building are hispanic and so is the doorman...now I am suspicious.
Damn that sounds like bigger government to me.
Isnt that a bad thing?
It would also give the police broad power to detain anyone suspected of being in the country illegally.
The police already have broad power to detain anyone they suspect of committing illegal acts.
Only Democrats are aghast that the police are given power to stop criminals in their tracks and arrest them.
Only Democrats believe that it is "irresponsible" to enforce our laws. Or that it is "unfair" to require immigrants to follow the laws our legislatures pass.
And that's why in November, you have to make sure that you don't vote for any Democrats.
Democrats want lawlessness and don't care about crime or unemployment as long as Hispanics vote Democrat.
If Hispanics vote Republican, Democrats would arrest them and deport them.
Hispanics are guilty of nothing except being the victims of Democrat Party extortion.
"Meade, did you know that my husband does not like Obama either?"
You are mistaken, Titus man.
I like Barack Obama.
I love George W. Bush.
And I'm a Dick Cheney fanatic.
Good for Arizona. This sends a message that our laws apply to all people. In Phoenix, hundreds of Anchor Babies are born every month at Maricopa Medical Center, they pay nothing and then Mom goes to DES to start getting her monthly Welfare check. Many of these illegals don't come here to work or for opportunities; they come for benefits and money. Hundreds of them live in Phoenix and Maricopa County public housing propjects at taxpayer expense.
Oh yes, Sr. Ritmo, voce ta' bebado, cara?
We now live in the Soviet Union. Every other official pronouncement is misleading or an out and out lie.
The latest bit of govt BS is the GM ad that has the CEO bragging that GM repaid us our $6 Billion. He neglects to say when we will get the other $54 Billion! F-ing scumbags IMO.
I didn't blow anyone Mesquito. I just made it on my own through hard work
But now I am returning to my roots for awhile. I am turning 40 this year and I am leaving the glam life behind.
It was fun, I did it, but I am now old and don't want to be going out and working it.
I know that my day in the sun has ended and am ready for a new chapter of modesty, frugality, love, walks in the park, no new clothes, family, a partner and animals.
thank you so much
Enjoy and experience a park.
"Damn that sounds like bigger government to me.
Isnt that a bad thing?"
If government is going to do something, they ought to do it.
Or not do it.
Personally, I sometimes think we should just have totally open borders and free labor.
But we don't. We have labor laws, wage restrictions, and it's awful hard to collect taxes if labor itself isn't highly controlled, so it's controlled. We're seeing crack downs on garage sales and barter, fer goodnessake. Heaven help us if the government doesn't get their share.
But if there are good reasons to regulate labor such as OSHA or child labor or minimum wages, if those things are meant to protect people... then how can a person, any person, turn around and support the system that creates and protects illegals who get none of those protections?
The problem is that if i am pulled over and don't have my license, I am not arrested. If i were hispanic without my license i could be.
what is "reasonable suspicion" that the person is illegal? no id?
The "who will do this task" arguments are stupid to the point of hatefulness.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. All these tasks will be done by Americans - there are plenty of citizens out of work. They won't do it for three dollars an hour, so you'll need to pay a bit more for your lettuce. Boo hoo.
It's funny how the same people who rail about income inequality fight to maintain the system that creates it.
The Democrats have to import a whole new people or they're kaput. And they know it.
FYI-I am really into parks now.
Forests, and bugs and water and grass and trails and animals and trees and rocks and pebbles and stones and formations that look like people.
I am really appreciating this great land of ours.
I like sand and seashells and walking along the ocean as well. But beginning May 1 dogs can't be on the beach here and for that reason I am a little sad.
what is "reasonable suspicion" that the person is illegal? no id?
How about no ID and doesn't speak English? Is that not reasonable enough?
ricpic said..."The Democrats have to import a whole new people or they're kaput. And they know it."
Maybe Democrats could import 40 year-old park lovers.
I am also excited about my stay in India with my husband.
His home is in Bangalore but we will be traveling to Goa, which is supposed to be beautiful. Calcutta, natch, some mountains called the Himilayans, Mumbai, New Dehli, Darleeing. My hope is to ride an elephant, play a flute and have a snake come out of a basket and some other shit.
He told me that wild monkeys would be in his backyard when he was young. Isn't that exciting?
"is that reasonable enough?"
it shouldn't be. is participation in a pro-pot rally by someone wearing a greatful dead t-shirt and long hair reasonable suspicion for pot possession?
I'm watching Comstock closely.
Obama argued "if we fail to act at the fed level, we will continue to see misguided efforts to enforce the laws"!
Hilarious & tortured logic from our young, green President.
Obama plans to legislate an amnesty for all illegals.
Result ... 30 million new Democratic voters dependent on social welfare payouts.
Obama's re-election strategy.
is participation in a pro-pot rally by someone wearing a greatful dead t-shirt and long hair reasonable suspicion for pot possession?
Yes, quite frankly.
christ, eric. you think that the government should be able to arrest and jail someone for being hispanic, without i.d., and doesn't speak english?
Parks say to city dwellers, slow down, smell the clean air, appreciate a plant, take a deep breath, go behind a tree and take a piss.
They are so natural and beautiful and ravenous.
My husband's calling me every 5 minutes bitching that I need to get to his house. But I am procrastinating. He got Lovely Bones on Netflix. I already saw it and for some weird reason liked it even though it was so over the top and weird and hippyish. He is cooking too which means tofu and salad and couscous and water. That last time he cooked we got in a big fight because I told him the food was gross. I won't do this tonight though.
What's irresponsible is the Demos - and some Republicans - turning the border into a combat zone for the sake of keeping the Lefties in power. Anywhere south of Tucson and you're safer in Iraq or A-stan.
Ann Althouse said...
What is irresponsible and unfair about what Arizona did?
What's unfair to the Demos is actually being expected to enforce the law. That's not the Chicago Way.
Yes I do. If you're not a citizen you need to be carrying ID while you're here. And you need to have some proficiency with English to become a citizen.
"yes, quite frankly"
ok. i guess the fourth amendment is completely fucked.
Thirty years in South Texas and I can usually tell the difference between a Mexican national and a Mexican-American at about one hundred paces. Lord knows my Mexican-American students could. I imagine border cops are even better.
Couscous. Grits. What's the dif?
"...tofu and salad and couscous and water."
Next stop for you is pablum, Titus.
ok. i guess the fourth amendment is completely fucked.
The constitution is routinely disregarded in our times. Why should we worship the fourth amendment while pretending the second and tenth are written in invisible ink?
"The problem is that if i am pulled over and don't have my license, I am not arrested."
You are too.
What do you think a ticket is?
It is a summons to appear in court and you have been arrested and released on your own recognizance.
If you don't pay your ticket, or show up to court to contest your arrest, a bench warrant will be issued for your arrest and you will not be released on our own recognizance but instead brought to a precinct house where you will be required to post bail, or sit in jail awaiting your trial.
If you post bail and don't show up to court, your bail will be confiscated by the state and another bench warrant will be issued for your arrest and the process will continue until either ...
a) you cannot afford any longer to post bail
b) bail is set so high nobody could afford it.
It is illegal in the United States to drive while not in possession of your driver's license and you will be arrested if caught.
You might not be hauled down to the precinct house depending on your attitude, but you are, in fact, being arrested when the officer hands you your ticket.
Nobody is above the law.
Not you.
Not illegal immigrants.
Except in Barack Obama's world, where you can be even be a domestic terrorist (Bill Ayers) and still walk free amongst the powerful.
Serious question Mesquito, how can you tell the difference?
The constitution is routinely disregarded in our times."
Since there are no more patriots willing to defend it, of course it is being erased by the despots who despise it.
courts are recognizing the second more than ever, and i agree. the tenth? hasn't been recognized in a long time. plus, the wording is a bit awkward. the fourth, where the government has to have a rational reason to detain and arrest a person i find to be a bit important (not saying the tenth isn't). otherwise obama's justice dept. might arrest and detain a citizen who has written about carrying a concealed weapon and promises to do so again. it's a slippery slope when the government wants a reason to arrest. next time it ain't the mexicans.
Serious question Mesquito, how can you tell the difference?
Clothing (especially shoes), gestures, racial characteristics (Most Mexican-Americans are from northern Mexico.)
Also, I don't speak much Spansi, but the border dialect is very distinct, with it's own special vocabulary. I could probably blend into any crowd in England, if I was dressed right and bleached out, but I'd give myself up the moment I opened my big goddam Texas mouth.
I hope they legitimize many of the hard working people who came to this country looking for a better life. When my grandfather jumped the ship from Italy in 1903 he did the same thing.
But I still want to pay them less then regular Americans.
My Mexican works harder than your Mexican.
Mexicans either look feral or beaten. Mexican-Americans have that bland commodified trademark American look.
newham, even though you are a moby, there is a difference between being cited for a violation and being arrested for a crime. in most states you will get a citation, which is a non-mandatory court date, for driving without a license. you don't show up and you owe money. however, for a criminal violation, such as the law in arizona, you are correct. you don't show and you get a warrant. but you know that- i can tell.
Maybe Democrats could import 40 year-old park lovers.
I'm afraid there aren't enough willing German and Dutch citizens to make a difference. Il Douche is trying hard to make it more attractive though.
For too long people (foreigners) have been told that being physically here is tantamount to a quasi legal status because our immigration enforcement is so lax.
Its high time we change that.
We need to change the cycle of expectation from one of "if I make it in somehow, nothing is going to happen to me" to "if I don't get in legally, there is a good chance I'm going to get caught".
I believe we are the only nation that is somehow expected not to protect its borders.
Why is that? Even ultra leftist like Chavez are protective of their borders.
In Portugal they have a pen right there at the airport.. they send people right back from whence they came.
We need to change the cycle of expectation from one of "if I make it in somehow, nothing is going to happen to me" to "if I don't get in legally, there is a good chance I'm going to get caught".
And we need to stop the amnesty cycle. I remember the debate in 1989 - "We'll do an amnesty and then that will be the last time, forever and ever. We mean it!"
It wasn't credible then and it's even less credible now. The message that went out last time was "if you can just stay under the radar eventually they'll legalize you."
Why are leftists automatically up in arms about a state enforcing its laws and laws that do not contradict federal law?
Northern Mexico is suffering from serious problems right now and Arizona is hard-hit by the Great Recession. It's not surprising that the people there would respond by trying to keep illegal immigrants out of their state. Furthermore, like almost every other issue, it's much easier to tackle this issue at a local level.
Good for Arizona. Enough is enough.
Every time I come home from fishing or hiking around my formerly-favorite S AZ lake, I have to pull over for a check-up from DHS. 20 of them looking us drivers over on one 2-lane highway, pickups like mine getting special attention.
Some of my former hiking trails are now 10 mile long, 50 foot wide garbage dumps. Signs on national forest lands warn of probable "dangerous conditions" from illegal activity.
A few miles east of this checkpoint a rancher gets murdered and they track footprints south to the border. And a couple hundred miles farther east the border city of Juarez has been taken over by drug cartels who are killing 1,600 people a year, and if the Mexican government can ever get a handle on it, more of that violence will migrate into Nogales, Tucson and Phoenix, which even now have steadily increasing crime associated with the smuggling.
Walking into my state from the south is deadly, in the summer from the heat, in the winter from the cold, and all year long from the violence and murder perpetrated by the "coyotes", the Mexican traffickers in drugs and humans.
I am open to nearly any good idea to help solve these border problems.
(And for once I agree with McCain: at $50 an hour, no one posting here would last half a day picking vegetables in Yuma.)
i have a problem with the idea that police officers may arrest and detain a person with "reasonable suspicion" that that person is illegal.
I'm sure that will be spelled out to the minutest detail and much litigated.
i don't have a problem with the state of arizona stating that it is a crime for an illegal to be within its borders. i have a problem with the idea that police officers may arrest and detain a person with "reasonable suspicion" that that person is illegal. i don't know what that means.
So, what you are saying is that you don't mind something being a crime but you are shocked -- shocked! -- that the police could be empowered to investigate the crime in any way or be empowered to prevent it or arrest people who violate the law.
What other stupid, unworkable ideas do you have?
"I'm sure that will be spelled out to the minutest detail and much litigated."
i agree. but while the issue makes its way up the appellate system people will be arrested and detained.
John wrote: And a couple hundred miles farther east the border city of Juarez has been taken over by drug cartels who are killing 1,600 people a year,..
Could that have anything to do with "maybe a little blow when you could afford it."?
seven machos.
i never said that i have a problem with police investigating a crime. that is their job. but arresting and detaining a person because they don't speak english and don't have i.d., i find offensive. investigate your ass off, i say.
dcm -- Should people be carded when they try to enter a bar? Should people be required to have a license to drive?
We have a visa process. The visa is your documentation that you have entered the country legally. Without a visa, you cannot enter the country and you must leave when it expires. This is the law.
What is your problem with that?
Further, the people arrested and detained and arrested and detained because the police believe they are in Arizona illegally.
i have a problem with the idea that police officers may arrest and detain a person with "reasonable suspicion" that that person is illegal.
I wouldn't do it proactively. But lets say while conducting a legal stop over an overt traffic violation or a 911 call over a dispute, the police officer may inquire to see legal identification.
Thats one way the law could be enforced.
As for raids, I would leave that to the feds.
I have done a few Mexicans in my day.
But now I am all about parks and nature and foliage.
I used to give out visas.
My advice to people would be to carry them around the way you would your passport or drivers license. Is that hard?
By the way, my guess is that if you have a drivers license or state-issued ID, that's prima facie evidence that you are in Arizona legally.
Further, here in Chicago, in any altercation with the police I stand a much better chance of getting arrested if I walk around without ID than if I do.
Seven Machos said - ....the police could be empowered to investigate the crime in any way or be empowered to prevent it or arrest people who violate the law.
The problem is that the police (or for that matter, the military) have never been very good at preventing crimes. And do you really want police to "investigate the crime in any way"?
Maybe we need to encourage immigration of some former Stasi; they probably remember how to do that stuff.
The problem is that the police (or for that matter, the military) have never been very good at preventing crimes.
No one is talking about preventing crime. It's a crime to be in Arizona without a valid immigrant visa if you are not a citizen.
And do you really want police to "investigate the crime in any way"?
This is a dramatically stupid comment. I want the police to be able to investigate crimes in many ways.
Maybe we need to encourage immigration of some former Stasi; they probably remember how to do that stuff.
Do you live in Arizona? If you don't, what's your beef, dude? These people perceive a local problem and they are trying to solve it through rule of law and democratically. If you do live in Arizona, get of your ass and make some valid arguments -- there are many -- instead of this juvenile, wholly inadequate, lazy name-calling.
Are you 12, dude? Or 11?
I have to agree with John. Arizona is reacting to an upswing in violent crime in Mexico that spreading into the US.
Is it the right reaction by Arizona? Maybe not. Is the Federal government doing anything to stop the flow of violence over the border? Not really.
I suspect, the next escalation would be for the Governor of Arizona to declare a state of emergency and start stationing National Guard units on the border.
I have done a few Mexicans in my day.
I hope you were not the last to drink from the bottle ;)
Obama is mad because undocumented Democrats will be thrown back where they belong.
Obama will, to paraphrase LBJ,have those wetbacks votin Democrat in perpetuity.
LBJ used a word forbidden in polite conversation- referring to Blacks. He was an enlightened elitist racist.
Legal citizens who jumped through hoops are welcome--but illegal immigrants will not get any Amnesty--leading to citizenship.
Arizona Govern Jan Brewer has more--SPINE--than the majority of our politicians, to fight the overpowering onslaught of illegal immigration. She signed the 1070 immigration bill. Arizona a border state is rampant with murders, home invasion, kidnappings, rapes, assaults and one of the highest crime rates, by illegal immigrants. Its ignorance and indifference of Washington to enforce our immigration laws. In fact they have purposely under funded them.
San. Harry Reid (D-NV) is not being outed just for health care reform, but being a puppet of open border-special interests groups? LETS MAKE THAT CLEAR.One thing for absolutely sure, desperate illegal alien families will be fleeing Arizona, for more greener pastures such as California. Seeing California is a Refuge state for illegal foreigners and already has the largest illegal population in Unites States other than New York. Now starving for billions of dollars, California will have to amend there own enforcement laws to stop the massive migration or pay a heavy price in extorting more money from taxpayers. Then there is always Utah, Texas, New Mexico or even farther states such as Washington. ONE THINGS FOR SURE, THAT THEY MAY PASS SOME FORMULATION OF IMMIGRATION REFORM. BUT AMERICA WILL FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL THAT NO "PATH--TO--CITIZENSHIP" FOR THOSE WHO CAME HERE ILLEGALLY. I am personally a tea partier a moderate Conservative and definitely not a Democrat and Republicans.-and illegal immigration is the no.1 priority to me, and must be stopped for good.
Californian's are under financial hardship owing to the welfare programs that caters to illegal alien families, and with an outpouring of Arizona's illegals the Sacramento budget will triple in handouts. Californian's, specifically Angeleno's and San Francisco There should be no excuse why FEDERAL SOLDIERS SHOULD BE NOT DEPLOYED TO THE 2000 MILE BORDER. They need to police the border, with the under-manned border patrol and even a poorly funded law enforcement agencies. Sheriffs and deputies that are in a very dangerous area are rudimentary armed, against heinous felons, drug cartels, skin traffickers, smugglers and the flow of unceasing indigent illegal immigrants. LET ME REITERATE, THAT IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT IS ONLY SEEN TO WORK. BUT THE TRUTH IS ITS NOT ENFORCED--THAT RIGHT NOW HOMELAND SECURITY HAS CUT BUDGETS FOR IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT. If you are--NOT--an open border extremist, join the organization that is fighting for our rights, your language, freedoms and liberty at NumbersUSA.
Seven - I was only commenting on what you wrote.
And although some think we could solve the problem here by turning us into a police state, from my view we have already moved too far in that direction and haven't made a dent in the illegal immigration problem.
I do agree about having proper ID.
Well, then, John. Sorry.
As for me, I say we build a very pretty wall much like The Great Wall of China. That solves the problem for Arizona as well as it is going to get solved.
I am very pro-immigration, though I radically pro-Americanization as well and I can certainly understand the views of people in Arizona who must deal with a crime-riddled Third World hell a few miles to the south.
If I have to abide by the law, everyone does. No pity. No mercy.
Seven, you're good people. I'd like to stay and talk a while but I have to go pay the guy who spread gravel on my yard today.
He only takes cash. Jees.
Then I have to get down to the Safeway before that lady who sells tamales in the parking lot leaves for the day.
Just no rest around here.
The Dems say it is OK for local cops to refer suspected illegals to ICE. How is that different if the local cops do it themselve?
I don't get it- local cops will profile but fed cops [ICE] don't profile?? Is there a secret to detecting ilegals that only the feds know?
LBJ used a word forbidden in polite conversation- referring to Blacks. He was an enlightened elitist racist.
Which just, like, totally overshadows his irreplaceable role in passing civil rights legislation.
It's da middle class guy!
And although some think we could solve the problem here by turning us into a police state, from my view we have already moved too far in that direction and haven't made a dent in the illegal immigration problem.
The illegal immigration problem is actually not that hard to deal with. It's just that there's a coalition of Republican business interests and Democratic race hustlers that have been keeping any viable solution from being implemented.
The reason Arizona needs a law like this is the federal government refuses to do its job. They won't even build a fence, for Pete's sake.
I am very pro-immigration, though I radically pro-Americanization as well and I can certainly understand the views of people in Arizona who must deal with a crime-riddled Third World hell a few miles to the south.
Which apparently must be nothing but contempt for the refugees fleeing it! Shame on them! Insolent Mexican illegal bastards! Only hatred for you will do! Your situation is a stain on you!
Thanks for, uh, coming out of the closet on your sympathies, Machos.
There are only a few phrases in Spanish a law enforcement officer need know:
Donde esta pistola
Donde esta Papagayo
Donde esta miga
Donde esta dinero
:-)
What the hell does "Americanization" mean anyway? Who appointed Machos arbiter of what the ideal American "type" looks, talks and thinks like?
Exactly which traits will you uphold in your "Americanized" ideal, Machos? Will schools and government agencies receive posters for instructional purposes?
Do tell!
Sorry Ritmo, but LBJ did not say that about civil rights. He said that about his Great Society Program. You know, the war on poor people. The war designed to keep Blacks poor?
He was still an elitist racist.
So, LBJ was instrumental in passing Civil Rights but this is all a moot point since da Middle Class Guy claims that da Great Society legislation amounted to a War on Black People?
That's one for da history books, folks.
Blacks: You heard it from da Middle Class Guy.
Ritmo spewed:
So, LBJ was instrumental in passing Civil Rights but this is all a moot point since da Middle Class Guy claims that da Great Society legislation amounted to a War on Black People?
Yeah are blacks better off now then they were in 1965? I don't think so. But of course according to racist fascist Nazi motherfuckers like you I'm not even allowed to speak on the topic because I'm white.
He was still an elitist racist.
By your standard, so was Lincoln.
Projecting attitudes endorsed by current standards on yesterday is called "presentism". It's a fallacy of historical reasoning to assume that anyone's failure in the past to conform to current standards represents a meaningful criticism.
Ritmourbanlegend responds to me in two posts. Because one is not good enough. If you want to visit or move to another country, you need a visa. That's the law. Every country has immigration law.
As much as I would like to be the arbiter of Americanization, I am not nor did I claim to be. If you could read beyond the sixth-grade level, Ritmourbanlegend you would have seen that.
Libtard: What the hell does "Americanization" mean anyway?
Assimilation into the Melting Pot.
"Cultural assimilation is a political response to the demographic fact of multi-ethnicity which encourages absorption of the minority into the dominant culture. It is opposed to affirmative philosophy (for example, multiculturalism) which recognizes and seeks to maintain differences.
The term assimilation is often used with regard to immigrants to a new land, such as the various ethnic groups who have settled in the United States. New customs and attitudes are acquired through contact and communication. The transfer of customs is not simply a one-way process. Each group of immigrants contributes some of its own cultural traits to its new society. Assimilation usually involves a gradual change and takes place in varying degrees; full assimilation occurs when new members of a society become indistinguishable from older members."
Not a balkanized nation of Tribes for race-hustlers like you to exploit.
Just look at what the Democrats have done to blacks. We don't want another group enslaved as House Negros to your Welfare Nanny State in exchange for a 90% voting bloc.
Don't act like you give a damn about illegal immigrants, RitmoLibtard. You just want to put a collar around their necks.
Fuck you.
But of course according to racist fascist Nazi motherfuckers like you I'm not even allowed to speak on the topic because I'm white.
You are permitted to speak as much of your ignorance as you like on the topic. You are also permitted to become as indignant as you like when reminded of your obvious (intellectual) inadequacy.
Intellectual inadequacies may bear a relationship to moral inadequacies, but in Alex's case the situation is clearly moreso the former than the latter.
are blacks better off now than they were in 1965
http://www.theroot.com/views/poor-state-black-families
"Who appointed Machos arbiter of what the ideal American "type" looks, talks and thinks like? "
I did.
And I'd say he's doing a damn fine job.
that da Great Society legislation amounted to a War on Black People?
Not War. Enslavement.
I'm sorry my left-leaning friends, you cannot have it both ways. There is no way to create a social welfare state while simultaneously weakening the ability of the federal government to keep non-citizens out of the country.
This is especially true when welcoming the poorest, least-educated citizens of a third-world country in. They provide little to the federally taxable income base of this country.
The reason why America was able to let in the Italian, Irish, Polish, German, etc. throngs in the 19th century is that there was no welfare state. We have one now.
So do you want more butter and less guns or do you want to completely destroy our ability to provide the butter you've voted for yourself?
Polls of likely voters in AZ indicate 70% or more favor this new law. That should be a tipoff to John McCain that he should change over his campaign agenda to a goodbye tour like one of those star athletes do in their last season.
Ritmo the Slaver always turns to his Thesaurus when he's lost the debate.
Ritmourbanlegend responds to me in two posts. Because one is not good enough.
Well it could have been. But much like a competitor in the Special Olympics, you inspire me. Sometimes there is too much inspiration to realize in just one post.
As much as I would like to be the arbiter of Americanization, I am not nor did I claim to be. If you could read beyond the sixth-grade level, Ritmourbanlegend you would have seen that.
But seeing as how you were such a fan of it (at least as of 7:29 this evening), perhaps you could state what it means you silly asshole.
I did.
And I'd say he's doing a damn fine job.
And what clear, transparent, and well-argued standards you have for determining that!
It befuddles me that leftists can argue for higher and higher wages and benefits while simultaneously arguing that we should have mass illegal immigration, which will at the very best make wages and benefits stagnate and, without question, make it harder for poor, uneducated people already here to find jobs.
Which do you want? Do you want higher wages? Or do you want unrestricted immigration?
If you want both, why not add streets paved with the finest marble and free lasagna and vodka gimlets for everyone?
Ritmourbanlegend -- Fen's definition of assimilation was just fine.
There's no country at all without accepted rules and norms.
Americanization:
1) Learn the American language.
2) Fly the American flag above all others.
3) Obey immigration laws.
It's not that hard, really. My dear Mother still talks with a funny accent (I'm told), but she's speaks English pretty well, jumped through all the immigration hoops
(and they were considerable) and thanks God every day she escaped the Old Country.
Also, she has little patience for the people who just show up.
Ritmo, I bet you never spent much time in a Black ghetto- probably only a few minutes driving like a bat out of hell to get out of there.
So you do not know how much damage LBJ and the Democrats did. Only people possessed of pure racist hatred could have conceived of welfare and housing projects.
But, hey, believe what you want. The world is full if intellectual idiots like you.
I wish our officials would follow the constitution and enforce our laws. Or repeal the laws and amend the constitution.
Why is that so hard for them to do?
What the hell does "Americanization" mean anyway?
Thinking of yourself as American first, with much lower priority given, in your thoughts, to your race, ethnicity, or prior nationality.
The ancestors I know of came from a bunch of different countries. I don't care about any of them, the languages they spoke, or the culture they had. I'm American; my culture is American, and my language is American English. That's Americanization. :)
I don't think it's imperative that immigrants learn English, by the way. It'd be nice, but as long as the government doesn't actively instigate a bilingual divide (like, say, Canada, with mandates about French speaking), it's fine.
All immigrants' kids will learn English.
"intellectual idiots"?
Well, there goes the guy who would apparently condone Lincoln's racism, but not LBJ's!
Just admit you lost the point, dumb-dumb.
As for Machos:
There's no country at all without accepted rules and norms.
4/23/10 7:58 PM
Well, whatever. The only constant in life is change. Rules are laws and those can be changed. And fuck "norms". The idea of "normal" is a fantasy striven for by people who have difficulty with their own individuality. And that of others.
Not War. Enslavement.
That is exactly what it was. Slavery. Public housing was the plantation slave quarters too.
The Democrats were great at creating slave systems. The original slavery they fought for, Jim Crow laws, the pseudo-civil rights bill, welfare and public housing. Now they are creating new slaves class out of the middle class.
How soon before they start selling people?
So, it is now illegal to be an illegal immigrant in Arizona. BFD!
And, while I do not know about Arizona, I would think it is about like here in that most of the cops are native Hispanics, and yes, they can tell if you are likely to hail from Casas Grandes rather than Casa Grande.
The ancestors I know of came from a bunch of different countries. I don't care about any of them, the languages they spoke, or the culture they had. I'm American; my culture is American, and my language is American English. That's Americanization. :)
Well, you have my apologies, Revenant! I didn't realize you had such boring origins!
(I'm really just joking, actually. I mean, your point is taken, but then again...)
Why is that so hard for them to do?
Because they never intended to have an enforceable law to begin with. Laws need an enforcement mechanism to affect anything, and Congressmen are past masters of passing things they know won't make any difference.
As it stands, you can live quite securely as an illegal immigrant in the US as long as you keep your nose clean. And sometimes even when you don't.
At 8:05 PM, da Middle Class Guy ends yet another rousing and inspiring (if entirely rhetorical) speech with the coda that indicates he has officially lost his mind.
Jesus, Ritmourbanlegend, you are such a tool. Who said rules were permanent?
As for norms, do you stand it line at McDonalds? Are bribes acceptable and expected? When do people marry?
This list is infinite. But you are too fundamentally stupid to consider these things.
All immigrants' kids will learn English.
And their grandkids will struggle for a "B" in high school Spanish, if the teacher is any good.
By the way Ritmo, if you insult people, you cannot expect not to be insulted in return- you yellow eyed frog faced fake.
As for norms, do you stand it line at McDonalds?
If the proprietor and customers expect it.
Are bribes acceptable and expected?
In which context? Informally? When it comes to political patronage? In business? It sure seems they are.
Whether they should be expected is another story.
When do people marry?
I'd say that any age from 16 to 126 leaves a wide leeway for margin and deviation outside of any possible "norm", but hey, maybe I just look at life out there and see that nobody does things in as regimented a manner as Machos would like to believe. It's a free country. And people tend to take advantage of that, or so I thought...
This list is infinite. But you are too fundamentally stupid to consider these things.
Ah, but I am not too stupid to believe they fit right into the presumptuous and poorly defended view you offered. Only you are that stupid, right?
By the way, Bella, if you are wrong about something - and refuse to see why, you can't expect people to take your points seriously.
Hey Ritmo and garage! Learn how to mow your own darned lawn.
And when you go to buy a lawnmower, be sure to buy American!
Please Mr. Biden, I mean Ritmo, tell me where I am wrong?
Obama has delusions of concocted fictions just like our resident leftards Ritmo and Garage McDouche. The canard of some evil conspiracy to filter out who is legal vs. illegal is so overplayed by you leftist morons that every time you go all Heinrich Himmler with your "Papers please" bullshit, you aren't doing it with a big red wig, a big red nose, and big red floppy shoes. You act like clowns and you get treated like clowns.
"It befuddles me that leftists can argue for higher and higher wages and benefits while simultaneously arguing that we should have mass illegal immigration,"
That's because they like having a servant class to do all the work they don't want to do.
Even better if this class has to leave their home, leave their families, and work under the radar. So that we can have cheaper lettuce.
It's why Democrats supported slavery in the 1860s and why they want a contemporary equivalent today. They want to take advantage of unstable societies and slap a "it's better for them to come here" label on it.
It's racism and classism all dandied up to look caring.
Ritmo Brasileiro said...
By the way, Bella, if you are wrong about something - and refuse to see why, you can't expect people to take your points seriously.
Irony becomes you. As if we do yours? You must have quite the life. Living in your own stew of self-adulation.
So what is Americanization?
Americans aren't homogeneous but proudly ethnic. We're hyphenated. We go on pilgrimages to the old country, hang on to folk arts and food and traditions, and say a few words or if we're lucky speak a bit of the language. We fly the flag and know what day was "independence day" back home.
So what counts as being Americanized?
I think it's no more complicated than whatever we think we are. And we can tell what people think they are, not by whether or not they hang on to their culture but whether or not they engage in the new one. Can't be hyphenated without sticking the -American on there, after all.
It is also prohibitively difficult to engage without a common language. And that's true no matter what country a person moves to. People who defend *not* learning English aren't nice people.
It's also a bit hard to engage in the new culture if you're trapped in an illegal shadow culture.
Well, you have my apologies, Revenant! I didn't realize you had such boring origins!
Pretty much everybody's origins are boring. It isn't like your ancestry represents some sort of personal accomplishment. Ok, so your ancestors were oppressed by group X, or chased out of country Y, or achieved Z? Fine and dandy. You, on the other hand, haven't been oppressed by anybody, fled any country, or achieved much of anything. Claiming that ancestral mantle is just pretentious.
"Your papers, please."
Sounds a lot more like a repressive country than the land of the free.
I wish people would understand that freedom means being free, and that includes the freedom to come and go.
It is antithetical to how our nation was founded to have such draconian immigration control. Just because we've been doing it a long time doesn't make it right.
There is only a small fee for legal immigration, yet the paperwork is far too onerous. The penalty for not having the proper paperwork should be an appropriate fine and the requirement to go get the paperwork completed. What's the big deal? Some people would rather throw them in jail to rot forever for some silly admin requirement.
Folks, it's not like the government is very good at determining if immigrants are dangerous or not. It's not like dangerous people have any intention of complying with the paperwork if they don't want to.
This is a bogus issue that has teeth for only two reasons. First is xenophobia, and that is as old as the country and just as baseless then as now.
The second reason is the rise of socialism. This is the inherent evil of socialism. It gives people a reason to complain about things that would otherwise be none of their business. Once we start paying for things, we expect a right to control how much and to whom and dictate behavior to comply.
The major drawback to immigration control is that it puts peaceful people in the hands of dangerous people smugglers, who (surprise!) tend to be the kind to maltreat and even enslave peaceful people.
The solution is to end socialism. Absent socialism, then the only reason remaining to support immigration control is xenophobia, and that has no legs.
Folks, if your employment marketability can't survive competition with people who don't even speak English and are usually poorly educated, then I have no sympathy for you.
And for an Anglo cop, the Chihuahua license plates on a pickup trailing a hot asphalt cooker might be a clue, y'a think?
Short of "ending socialism" Skyler, how do you propose to deal with illegal immigration?
Ans Skyler, when my mother immigrated, she needed a sponsor who was required to place a bond on her which absolved any level of government of any responsibility for her care. What's wrong with that?
Titus said...
I am also excited about my stay in India with my husband.
His home is in Bangalore but we will be traveling to Goa, which is supposed to be beautiful. Mumbai, New Dehli, Darleeing. My hope is to ride an elephant.
Goa is nice, but really built-up and touristy--the area between Mangalore and Udape is unspoiled and beautiful. There is a place called the heritage in Kapu that is like out of a storybook.
I would skip New Delhi(incredible air pollution). Old Delhi and Agra (taj mahal) are worth seeing. For elephant rides, bazaars forts and such, get thee to Jaipur! Bombay is the NYC of India.
Kerala is supposed to be a tropical paradise, but I have only heard and not been there.
Ans Skyler, when my mother immigrated, she needed a sponsor who was required to place a bond on her which absolved any level of government of any responsibility for her care. What's wrong with that?
I don't have much problem with that (though it seems ineffective), so long as it's relatively quick and easy to complete without quotas.
Our country is not based on a language or a culture, as culture is defined by other nations. Our nation's culture is based on freedom and individual rights. Anyone coming here should expect freedom and individual rights, no matter why they're here. If they break the law (assuming that immigration laws are thrown out) then they should be punished.
The government should control who is a citizen and who gets to vote, but who lives here is none of their business, or else what is freedom?
I seem to remember reading something something about a five year moratorium on benefits for legal immigrants.
(And for once I agree with McCain: at $50 an hour, no one posting here would last half a day picking vegetables in Yuma.)
What crap! Hundreds of us from the University of Arizona paid for our college and law school educations in part by picking in Yuma.
What would McCain know about how cantaloupes get on the shelf?
$50 an hour? What's that?
"The second reason is the rise of socialism. This is the inherent evil of socialism. It gives people a reason to complain about things that would otherwise be none of their business. Once we start paying for things, we expect a right to control how much and to whom and dictate behavior to comply."
In a nutshell.
Everyone should have this tattooed on the inside of their eyelids.
In really really tiny type. ;-)
And for once I agree with McCain: at $50 an hour, no one posting here would last half a day picking vegetables in Yuma.
You might be right about nobody posting here being willing to do it, but the idea you wouldn't find Americans willing to do the job at that price is ridiculous. You don't think individuals wouldn't pick vegetables for double the median family income? Seriously?
If you think that you need to take a vacation and tour your country a bit. Americans do more grueling jobs than that for less money. I'd take picking vegetables in the desert over a shift making tires or steel, and so would a lot of other people who work in those jobs.
We could help the deficit by putting a price list that assesses immigrants a big fat fee to get in and stay legally.
Heck why not charge the first 20 million immigrants $25,000 each and raise $500 Billion.
And they must agree they won't use govt benefits for 20 years and they can't vote for 20 years.
Sounds like a fair deal to me.
I think any foreigner should be able to come here illegally, break the immigration laws, and stay here forever.
I'm outraged that Arizona is attempting to enforce the law. I mean, what is this, Mexico?
"I'd take picking vegetables in the desert over a shift making tires or steel, and so would a lot of other people who work in those jobs."
I had a job at a plastic molding place. There were employees who didn't make it half a day... and there were employees who did. One guy who didn't make it half a day would have stuck it out, no matter how unpleasant, but he kept puking from the heat and stuff. I've done the hot dirty agricultural work... baling, picking rock...
If someone offered to pay me $50 an hour to drive down to Hatch and pick chilies for the duration of the harvest I'd grab some SPF 50 and a straw hat and get in the car.
Some people are wusses. But not everyone is.
What is irresponsible and unfair about what Arizona did?
Hmm... perhaps if the professor were not a native English-speaking blonde, the unfairness might occur to her.
This Cheech and Chong movie is suddenly relevant once more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=GBHYXlIwoGc
All citizens will have a microchip implanted at birth, with scanners present at the entrance of all government buildings.
I'd do it for a lot less than $50, but I'm trying to decide how much less.
My teenagers would do it for a bit more than minimum wage, if they had the opportunity and it didn't violate some labor law or other.
I get asked for "paperz" and ID everytime I go vote.
I don't. What part of the former Soviet Union do you live in?
I don't really see the problem in theory. If the police actually were held accountable for violations of people's rights I would have no problem with this law. I do worry about authoritarian creep.
Skyler said...
This is a bogus issue that has teeth for only two reasons. First is xenophobia, and that is as old as the country and just as baseless then as now.
Bullshit. This country has people in it that are represented from every country on earth. Blame the bureauweenies over the level of paperwork that is required to enter this country legally, but don't snivel about this being xenophobic. It isn't. When you've seen the toll that illegal immigration has taken on a state like California, then the only thing you have left is that it's the rise of socialism and the welfare state. Want an example of how that works, then go look at illegal muslim population that is living in Malmo, Sweden and how the Swedish at this point either don't care or have been so dociled that any rebuttal to this situation would be met by the cries of xenophobia. Remind you of someone?
There should be no excuse why FEDERAL SOLDIERS SHOULD BE NOT DEPLOYED TO THE 2000 MILE BORDER.
Two Asian wars are not a good enough excuse?
I'd like to live in a world where the National Guard is available to, oh I dunno, Guard the Nation. But we haven't had a world like that since Bush Sr. was President.
I'd like to live in a world where the National Guard is available to, oh I dunno, Guard the Nation. But we haven't had a world like that since Bush Sr. was President.
You already live in that world. By mid-year there will only be about 50,000 troops in Iraq, down from a peak of 200,000. The build-up in A-stan will be around 30k.
We have the troops. What we don't have is the political will. If we didn't have the troops we could get them - military spending in the US is about 4% of GDP, down from over 10% during the cold war.
If the proprietor and customers expect it.
Congratulations, dumb ass. You just defined a norm.
I'd say that any age from 16 to 126 leaves a wide leeway for margin
What about 15? What about 12?
As for bribes, you obviously have never spent time in most every other culture.
You should get out more, Ritmourbanlegend. That could curb some of your worst ass clown characteristics.
FLS is correct about the inability to guard the border. So is Eric.
It would take a draft.
We need to build a wall. That would give us the latitude to have a much more open immigration policy, or make the one we have work, or restrict it.
Did I miss tonight's Ritmo drive-by again? Damn!
Ritmo, in the future could you tell us when you plan to be on Althouse firing off clever and oh-so-superior responses so I can witness it live? It'd make my day.
I'm a wuss.
When the "normal rules" don't apply, someone, or two or a state full of people are here to remind us they will make their own rules.
Imagine that?
Skyler -- Xenophobia is not the issue at all. The issues are crime and jobs. Period.
Further, your argument about people being free to come and go is pricelessly silly. First, people are free to go though it's difficult to say where because every country has immigration laws.
Second, your argument sounds like Robert Nozick which is all fine and good, but Nozick realized that he was talking pie the sky. In a free market of people, just like in any other free market, there is constant movement toward equilibrium. This would mean that in poorer countries, standards of living would increase as people left and in richer ones, standards would decrease as people arrived.
Are you really advocating that for the United States? How well you think it's gonna go over in the middling suburbs of Cincinnati (let alone Phoenix)?
The same people forever harping about American jobs going abroad, also oppose measures against illigal immigration.
This would mean that in poorer countries, standards of living would increase as people left and in richer ones, standards would decrease as people arrived.
Nah... it depends on whether the people who come or go are rich or poor.
Dumb ass. (Just because I want to communicate properly with you in your own language).
I honestly don't think leftists believe in economics. Some of them understand it, I think. I don't doubt that Paul Krugman can draw a supply and demand curve better than I can.
However, I don't think they actually believe that the rules of economics are real and functional. How else to explain the way the left approaches wages and immigration?
P.S.: Apologies to Mickey Kaus.
"Your papers, please."
Sounds a lot more like a repressive country than the land of the free.
There have been state laws giving police the right to demand identification for at least the last 75 years. This is not a new development.
Oh man, this is too rich. As of on cue -- as if he was my sock puppet -- Ritmourbanlegend -- pops up to demonstrate that leftist tools don't believe in economics.
Rich people have no need to emigrate, just as suppliers of goods and services do not add supply to markets where there is no excess demand.
On a practical level, the people of Arizona are not worried about wealthy, law-abiding people coming to Arizona. And if you are wealthy and law-abiding, the United States very much wants to give you a visa to come here. This I have participated in.
Get out more, Ritmourbanlegend. It's really sad to argue with such a silly tool.
You know, in watching the clips from the movie I linked, I got to realizing how similar fascists and communists really were. They both strongly appealed to the conservative impulse toward uniformity/conformity - just in different ways.
The Nazis couldn't tolerate biological distinctions and the Soviets couldn't tolerate economic distinctions.
I can see why the crowd here is so obsessed with them.
Skyler: You can't preach to the converted. Xenophobia is the excuse for things that Machos codes under nonsense words that he couldn't even define, like "Americanization".
And then Fen and Synova came along and gave him a ridiculously garbled definition (in the case of the former) and a halfway decent one, respectively.
People usually have instincts or preferences first, and then choose their rationalizations later. For Machos, such rationalizations consist of "crime and jobs".
I'd be more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, though, if he didn't first try to cover it up with that mealy mouth crap about "Americanization" and "norms". But I guess he had to give himself away.
In the post itself, Althouse refers to "disorder".
Like I said, uniformity is the impulse we're appeasing, and "crime and jobs" are excuses for darker motivations.
But I like how Machos throws out universal generalizations regarding what "every country" does, and then fails to account for the free movement policies of dozens of countries in the E.U.
Hmm... perhaps if the professor were not a native English-speaking blonde, the unfairness might occur to her.
If you mean that it is unfair that illegal immigrants unfairly stigmatize Hispanic Americans, I agree.
One more reason to get the illegal immigrants in question the heck out of the country. :)
Hmm... perhaps if the professor were not a native English-speaking blonde, the unfairness might occur to her.
Are you kidding, pendejo? You think everybody who's not some gringo princess thinks Arizona is unfair in this? Tu madre!
Think again.
Oh man, this is too rich. As of on cue -- as if he was my sock puppet -- Ritmourbanlegend -- pops up to demonstrate that leftist tools don't believe in economics.
I don't believe a tool with a ski mask should be in the business of riffing on talking socks, but whatever. The intellectual depth of Machos barely goes beyond the shallow wading of the kiddie pool.
Rich people have no need to emigrate, just as suppliers of goods and services do not add supply to markets where there is no excess demand.
See, your dumb-ass need for Universal Theories to Explain Everything (TM) doesn't account for motivations other than need. How about desire? I happen to know of several people with incomes greater than the average GDP of the country they moved to, simply because they liked the life there, or saw an opportunity and started a business.
Where does that leave your Theory of All Things Economic?
So, again, as usual, you're the fucking idiot who needs to get out more.
And, oh yeah... fuck off. Just 'cause I felt like telling it to you. And because you deserved it. And because you probably don't know what you're talking about.
U.S.’s Toughest Immigration Law Is Signed in Arizona
http://worldcelebritiz.blogspot.com/2010/04/uss-toughest-immigration-law-is-signed.html
The same people forever harping about American jobs going abroad, also oppose measures against illigal immigration.
The key difference is that a Mexican who illegally sneaks across the border to work here has a good shot at getting to vote. A Mexican doing the same outsourced job in Mexico does not.
the free movement policies of dozens of countries in the E.U.
Truly hilarious. Try getting a job in France as a Polish plumber.
Furthermore, try entering the European Union for work from Turkey or the Ukraine. Or Algeria.
The part about rationalizations is also cute. I have already said in this thread that I am highly pro-immigration, and I am saying it again. However, it's a legitimate political issue and it does your side no favors to call people who want to illegal immigrants to get out of the country xenophobes.
This is your modus operandi. Call people you disagree with politically xenophobic, or racist, or homophobic, or what have you. It's ridiculously childish. It's foolish, It's ass clownery. It's why your side can't ever seem to hold onto executive power in the states or at the national level unless your politicians are smarter than you (not difficult) and move drastically to the right like Clinton did.
I wish the state of Arizona the best of luck with its legislative initiative.
"This would mean that in poorer countries, standards of living would increase as people left and in richer ones, standards would decrease as people arrived."
Would it?
I think your first statement is clearly wrong. In a poorer country, given freedom to travel, those who migrated wouldn't likely be the poorest but those with means. Even considering that the poorest were the ones who left, the notion that the standard of living would increase is unsupportable.
And the second statement is based on the condition that Skyler mentioned... how much money and how much control? If we're not actively subsidizing people who arrive the arrival of more people doesn't suck money out of the economy. How could it?
You think everybody who's not some gringo princess thinks Arizona is unfair in this?
No, it is a case of what leftists call "privilege," and what my dad called "no skin off my ass." No one is ever going to detain me more than the briefest instant to find out if I belong here or not, because I radiate honkitude.
You know, in watching the clips from the movie I linked, I got to realizing how similar fascists and communists really were.
Well duh! Fascists and communists are people of the left. How remarkably dense of you to extrapolate from there some imaginary relationship to a "conservative impulse toward uniformity/conformity."
But then if you weren't dense, you wouldn't be a lefty.
I happen to know of several people with incomes greater than the average GDP of the country they moved to
Really. Please name one. Bear in mind that the lowest national GDP is Kiribati at $130,000,000 per year.
Even considering that the poorest were the ones who left, the notion that the standard of living would increase is unsupportable.
The people who leave have drive and ambition -- they can see a better life for themselves, and they are motivated to get it. That leaves the haves and the havenots, the satisfied and complacent on the one hand, and the timid and fearful on the other. The standard of living would stay the same, or stagnate as the ambitious leave.
Synova -- I think my logic is unassailable here. From a GDP perspective, when someone leaves, that leaves that much more for everyone else.
As I say, I am pro-immigration. We aren't getting the richest people at all. We are getting the risk-taking, and the entrepreneurial. We seem to get the hard-working as well.
More than immigration, though, I care about the principle that people can govern themselves. The people of Arizona have decided that they want to enforce immigration laws. Good for them. I hope it works out, particularly in light of the crime problem on the border and the joblessness in the state.
Furthermore what, Fuckface? Ukraine, Turkey, and Algeria are not part of the E.U. As for Polish plumbers seeking work in France, what of them? Your point was about immigration laws. Specifically, you talked about how every country has them. So again, tell me how E.U. policy confirms this stupid, bullshit, talking point assertion - that you were wrong about.
I get the feeling that you think if you admitted you were wrong about something, your ski mask would constrict and make your face implode. Just try it for once, you narrow lawyer.
As for xenophobia, these were your words:
I am very pro-immigration, though I radically pro-Americanization as well and I can certainly understand the views of people in Arizona who must deal with a crime-riddled Third World hell a few miles to the south
If you don't believe the tone of these views which you "can certainly understand" don't come across as condoning a mob attitude of xenophobia (albeit a muddled one wrapped in vague concerns about "crime" in a "Third World hell") then maybe you should just learn to write better.
Seven Machos said...
I happen to know of several people with incomes greater than the average GDP of the country they moved to
Really. Please name one. Bear in mind that the lowest national GDP is Kiribati at $130,000,000 per year.
Well, since you're a lawyer, you're only capable of getting me on technicalities. This one being the (understood) qualifier of "per capita). But of course, you already knew that. As you knew you were incapable of taking issue with the substance of what I said. As usual.
Really. Please name one. Bear in mind that the lowest national GDP is Kiribati at $130,000,000 per year.
Assuming he wasn't just making shit up, he probably meant "GDP per capita". Which makes his story pretty banal, since that kind of story is common among legal immigrants. I work with at least ten immigrants who make more than the per capita American GDP. Anybody in a high tech or medical field can probably say the same.
Now, if he knew multiple illegal immigrants whose incomes were greater than the per capita GDP of the country they snuck into... THAT would be a tale worth hearing. But that kind of story doesn't exist, since pretty much every country on Earth is happy to take you if you are, by that country's standards, rich.
Ukraine, Turkey, and Algeria are not part of the E.U.
Exactly. And Mexico and countries in Central America are not part of the United States.
Perhaps we are getting somewhere. Perhaps the light bulb has gone off in your dim little brain. Perhaps you are finally beginning to understand that those lines on world maps have real meaning in the political world.
@ fls: You think everybody who's not some gringo princess or who doesn't "radiate honkitude" thinks Arizona is unfair in this?
If I am stopped in my vehicle in Arizona pursuant to this law, should I hold the illegal entrants and the Congress and others who pander to them blameless? Have I been stopped because I don't "radiate honkitude" or because millions of Mexican immigrants are flaunting the law?
Well duh! Fascists and communists are people of the left.
Like their fellow totalitarians (such as Homey), they're too far from the center to qualify as either "right" or "left" properly. They meet in the behind. So to speak.
How remarkably dense of you to extrapolate from there some imaginary relationship to a "conservative impulse toward uniformity/conformity."
How remarkably dense of you to extrapolate that there isn't.
But then if you weren't dense, you wouldn't be a lefty.
But then, if you'd ask a political scientist about how the political spectrum is a continuum, you'd have to come to terms with your dense relationship with your fellow totalitarians. It's not like you don't share enough in common with them just from your way of thinking. They just had more specific enemies lists than you do.
I know, Rev. But it was too good to pass up.
The United States wants more than anything in the world to give visas to rich people. It is, in fact, a principle enshrined in federal law.
Perhaps you are finally beginning to understand that those lines on world maps have real meaning in the political world.
You mean, like the line between France and Poland? I didn't know one existed. Perhaps once the light bulb goes off in your own mind you might realize that those lines divide France from Spain, Germany, Switzerland and a few others, but not Poland.
Oh, that's right. You weren't interested in making a serious point either. More technicalities to match your own disinterest in being serious.
Northern Mexico is a crime-ridden Third World hell. This is a fact on the ground. Sugarcoating the current situation is demeaning to Mexico.
Ritmourbanlegend -- Try again about France and Poland. You used a lot of words, but you said absolutely nothing and made no point whatsoever.
Are you saying that it is possible to get a good job in France as a worker from Poland? Are you saying that the United States and Mexico share some sort of union that allows people to move freely across the border between the United States and Mexico?
Please try to make a point in your posts. Thank you.
Xenophobia is the excuse for things that Machos codes under nonsense words that he couldn't even define, like "Americanization".
Why is it people on the left insist on trying to assign new meanings to the words other people use. "You're xenophobic because you used this word, which isn't xenophobic, but I have decreed it was really a code to mean this other thing."
Are your arguments so weak you can't address what people say without redefining the words they use? Did you all read Humpty Dumpty too many times as a child?
Northern Mexico is a crime-ridden Third World hell. This is a fact on the ground. Sugarcoating the current situation is demeaning to Mexico.
Which is a great reason for Arizonans to fear the people fleeing it, right? It's a great reason to fear the people seeking refuge from it.
Or maybe you meant to say something else.
You used a lot of words, but you said absolutely nothing and made no point whatsoever.
Hey, man. I was just trying to go out Machos style! I'm purposely emulating the way you approach an argument.
Apparently that got to you.
Ritmourbanlegend -- You are not entitled to your own facts. There is no question whatsoever that the crime problems in Northern Mexico are seeping into Arizona.
Further, the other issue is jobs. More people coming into your state with few marketable skills and little money makes a tough economy even tougher.
People on the border to Mexico have the right to govern themselves as they see fit with regard to illegal immigration.
Fine.
Then let me ask you for some factual information.
Are a higher percentage of the illegals desperately seeking to flee the crime than are the legal aliens?
Can we just get rid of US citizenship as a category and give me my f'ing bennies?
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