Let's look at the news of these arrests over the weekend:
Nine members of the Christian militia group Hutaree have been indicted on multiple charges involving an alleged plot to attack police, including seditious conspiracy and attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, the U.S. Attorney in Michigan announced this morning.
"Six Michigan residents, along with two residents of Ohio and a resident of Indiana, were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence," according to the government's press release, which you can read in full below.
From the government's own press release:
The indictment further alleges that the Hutaree planned to kill an unidentified member of local law enforcement and then attack the law enforcement officers who gather in Michigan for the funeral. According to the plan, the Hutaree would attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession with Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment, constitute weapons of mass destruction.
Assuming these allegations are true, this is indeed a nefarious plan and it's great that these people were caught. But I must also say that it's interesting to see that Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment are "weapons of mass destruction." That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
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331 comments:
1 – 200 of 331 Newer› Newest»Ummm... No, it doesn't blow a big hole in the notion that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Unless, of course, you are being facetious, knowing full well that the government has here made an especially loose and liberal and dramatic and stupid definition of what a WMD is.
This is our press-release-driven government in action, folks!
If these charges are upheld in court, I hope the individuals responsible get long jail sentences.
One charge that seems strange is "teaching the use of explosive materials". I guess there was a lab that included use of explosives without legally required permits. If not .....
VW: appoylly - a sort-of apology, frequently given by politicos.
Lemmmeeee get this straight. So the new explanation is, we invaded iraq to seize the weapons of mass destruction that hadn't yet been built and deployed by insurgents, the insurgents that didn't coalesce into groups until after we invaded?
This takes "premptive strike" to a whole nother level. Bush was infinitely wise AND psychic.
If everything is a weapon of mass destruction, then nothing is. Historically, the term WMD referred nuclear, chemical or biological weapons designed to inflict mass casualties (as in thousands, tens of thousands, or even millions).
By what passes as the current definition of WMD, Iraq was filled with them.
Bush would've waited for a resolution from the United Nations and authorization from both houses of Congress.
You trying to see if you can make Alpha have a stroke?
Yeah, all those dead people were killed for good good reason after all because they made IEDs after we invaded them and threatened us as we occupied their country.
Brilliant deceit there, perfesser.
Julius Hoffman:
No, it doesn't blow a big hole in the notion that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Unless, of course, you are being facetious,.
I think she's being serious. Seriously flailing to support a bloody and wrong invasion and occupation which even Joe Barton has admitted was a mistake.
That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
Following your logic we then should have invaded Michigan with 150,000 troops?
From what little I read about these guys, they sound like a throwback to the Jim Jones cult.
I am glad, though, that Althouse highlighted the growing militant, armed and dangerous right wing extremism in this country.
How about the armed and dangerous border vigilantes? Gonna blog on that one, Annie? this bunch has already murdered people.
The list of right wing extremist threats and violence seems to grow daily. Remember when conservatives were outraged that the DHS would keep an eye on such folks?
Following your logic we then should have invaded Michigan with 150,000 troops?
We'll probably need more than that if we want to take Detroit. Though I'm not necessarily sure that we do.
Following your logic we then should have invaded Michigan with 150,000 troops?
It might lower the murder rate in Detroit.
If the charges are true they should die in jail. And these are no Christians, just people who say that they are.
Trey
There were lots of "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq. Our troops found a whole lot of old chemical stuff and paraphernalia and shells for delivery and what-not.
It just wasn't big new stuff... not active chem production or active nuke facilities. Saddam was doing a smoke and mirror thing to make himself appear to be stronger than the West and those countries who were trying to control him. A psych job.
We also found mass graves... graves of past mass destruction...
And we know that he had in the past used chemical warfare on his own people... which sort of implies that if he wasn't bluffing about having WMDs, that he'd be the sort to go ahead and use them.
Since we didn't find significant new construction some people like to pretend that Saddam wasn't a risk, or that the intel and reports were a lie... a set up.
But a person has to figure... you've got an administration that is able to, in less than a year, orchestrate 9-11... how hard could it have been to "find" a nuke facility? Really?
Hoosier Daddy deflects:
From what little I read about these guys, they sound like a throwback to the Jim Jones cult..
Spin, baby, spin!
From press reports and their web site, they are a) anti-muslim, b) Christian fundamentalist, c) militia-based.
That sounds a lot more like your fellow travellers (Ted Nugent-style) than Jim Jones. Maybe you're too young to actually remember Jones, but this isnothing like him.
Following your logic we then should have invaded Michigan with 150,000 troops?
Well, it is a failed state with oppressive one-party rule, locking out political minorities.
Hey, I think you might be onto something!
Alpha, you really need to look at the big picture. I can understand your confusing the Minutemen with terrorists, you are after all, a liberal.
But even you should see that it is not wise to use an article about the Minutemen closing up shop to raise them as an example of right wing extremists. It makes you look like you are frothing over nothing, and it reminded me of when you said that tea partiers were shouting mean things to voters. I watched that video too, and one person made an offhand remark.
I suggest you stop the wild exaggerations if you want to persuade anyone.
Trey
"...Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles..."
That's an awful lot of dangerous-looking wording to describe an amateurish pipe bomb cobbled together by some idiot Yooper out of schedule 40 pipe, Pyrodex, spit, and paranoia.
Gosh, I wonder why they'd want to make these goofballs seem more dangerous than they actually are. And I wonder why these raids went down right now, right at this moment, with media attention focused on those violent right-wing teabaggers.
If the charges are true they should die in jail.
Disagree. They should do one day more jail time than Bill Ayers did.
That'll show 'em!
How about the armed and dangerous border vigilantes?
Or how about the armed and dangerous Mexican drug cartels crossing into the US killing people?
Oh I don't suppose you oppose that Alpha since it doesn't fit your narrative.
I love how Althouse is making the liberals squirm!!!!
There were no IEDs in Iraq prior to the invasion. Saddam just used meat grinders on his opponents or other creative methods thought up by Udai.
I am sure this is one of the groups that Janet Napolitano was referring to when she described home grown terrorists. Well if true, good, I am glad they were arrested and hope they get convicted. Just put a similar effort into tracking down Mexican drug cartels who are terrorizing the boarder, Muslim terrorist groups and lone wolfs, and other threats to our country.
Right wing hero Ted Nugent: Politicians “Are Pigs” And “We Gotta Kill The Pig”.
Sounds like the Hutaree bunch agrees with Ted Nugent.
"But, as I was about to put a 10mm slug in this pig’s head, the last thing he said was [mimics squealing pig], which is pig for “where is my healthcare?” They’re pigs Neal. We gotta kill the pig. And, in November we gotta vote the pigs out of office, because this is a redistribution of wealth. This is the Communist-Mao-Che agenda of the Communist-Mao-Che fans in the White House. They’re pigs Neal!"
The right wing violence has been growing and growing. The McVeigh wing of the Republican Party is growing and growing.
Keep making excuses for them, Ann!
And I wonder why these raids went down right now, right at this moment, with media attention focused on those violent right-wing teabaggers.
This group actually held a tea party. It was called "Open Carry Family Picnic & Tea Party.
As for the Michigan thing... it's morons, completely, using the term WMD to mean an explosion meant to kill a number of people at the same time. Weapons of mass destruction are nuclear, chemical or biological.
And anyone who thinks that Althouse wasn't pointing out the absurdity of using that term by comparing it to Iraq is firmly in that club of morons.
Althouse - shame on you... this is just troll fodder.
From AlphaLiberal's volume of comments, and their laser-like focus on "right wing violence", I'd say that more raids are coming.
I should have bought into cosmoline futures.
I'm curious, Alpha -- you're paid to do this, obviously; but do they actually give you a script for the day? Have you been instructed to really harp on this right-wing violence topic?
Actually, a tiny pipe bomb made of PVC water pipe and packed with an explosive is a "Weapon of Mass Destruction" if my former lt. police detective friend from years ago informed me rightly.
Turns out one of my kids and the kid next door were experimenting with things that would blow things up (fish in a pond, grape vines on the mountain ... whatever).
(They didn't need the dangerous book for boys or whatever it's called. They were boys, not metrosexuals.)
We discovered some evidence of same and I had a consultation with our friend the detective.
In legal lingo here a pipe bomb is a weapon of mass destruction. So is an IED. So yeah -- is the Professor hyperventilating some? Probably.
I personally thought taking out Usay and Udai, in addition to Saddam, eliminated three of the biggest weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
Many Iraqi families felt the same way.
Oh yeah. A double-dad hit on the boys ended that experimentation episode.
wv hypewori
What the Professor was doing.
There is something here that does not seem right. These types of groups are more supportive of their local cops than the average individual. If they had a beef with the Feds, they would take their bombs to Washington. Remember the junk we were told about Waco and Ruby Ridge.
As to weapons of mass distruction, in Iraq, even Saddam thought they were there. If the leader of a country is convienced of the existance of the weapons, then why shouldn't we? Besides, I have no problem with invading the country to get the oil and destablize the region.
We'll probably need more than that if we want to take Detroit. Though I'm not necessarily sure that we do.
Detroit is a "take off and nuke the site from orbit" situation if I ever saw one. I think Falujah has better prospects.
Anyway, Obama is an expert on domestic terrorism - he keeps one in his "kitchen cabinet". Wake me up when these yahoos bomb the capital or a NCOs ball or something.
They will do a little more jail time than Bill Ayers and they will be banned for life from working as a law professor unlike Bernadine Dohrn.
Timothy McVeigh wore a t-shirt on the day he carried out his mass murder with the slogan favored by so many right wingers today:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
AL:
You are seriously running out of gas.
Priceless. AJ Lynch sticks up for his victimized brethren:
"They will do a little more jail time than Bill Ayers and they will be banned for life from working as a law professor unlike Bernadine Dohrn."
Get a fracking clue, man.
"They should do one day more jail time than Bill Ayers did."
Point.
After all, what's the difference? But you missed something:
Let them do one more day in jail than Ayers and then give them teaching jobs at Universities. Can't hardly say they aren't qualified now, huh?
Garage said: "This group actually held a tea party. It was called "Open Carry Family Picnic & Tea Party."
No, that was the Michigan Militia. This other group Hutaree that was raided was not formally affiliated with the Michigan Militia.
If the charges against these people are true then they should be held to account.
I stand corrected Pasta. Big relief.
Awww... Alpha is unsettled because he thinks that because we joke about letting these scum buckets off, that we approve of them the same way he approves of Ayers.
How precious.
Oh, I get it.
Conservatives have fragile minds so when they use words like Obama uses it's *different*.
Here it comes. The US Government is now joining in with the Media's slander as sub-humans of whomever is not in agreement with the ruling collective's exercise of unconsitutional powers. But after the next election, just wait until theys tries to turn their heads. It's the white women like Sarah Palin that will overwhelm the Fifth columnists.
fragile minds = thinking terms like "dead man," "socialism, "revolution, "armed and dangerous." have never ever ever been mentioned in political discourse. From either party. Ever.
Fragile mind indeed
Words don't have meaning, Ann.
They're just weapons used in the fight against ... whatever you're fighting against.
WMDs are whatever the left claim they are at the time they need to claim something.
Nothing more, nothing less.
We have always been at war with EastAsia.
Or hadn't you heard?
Synova:
Conservatives have fragile minds so when they use words like Obama uses it's *different*. .
I actually thought I was agreeing with you in referring to these Hutaree people. I guess you won't have that no way no how.
And this event causes so many to show their true racist and anti-democratic colors:
traditionalguy rants racist:
Here it comes. The US Government is now joining in with the Media's slander as sub-humans of whomever is not in agreement with the ruling collective's exercise of unconsitutional powers. But after the next election, just wait until theys tries to turn their heads. It's the white women like Sarah Palin that will overwhelm the Fifth columnists. .
Wait, wait, don't tell me. The only wrong thing about racism is when someone points it out!
If these people are actual criminals, then they should certainly be prosecuted.
But I haven't read anything about them actually, you know, ever DOING anything. They're apparently just a group of pitiful paranoid twits who liked to picture themselves as some sort of resistance, and "train" in the techniques that would someday be necessary.
Which is sort of sad and potentially dangerous (mostly to themselves); but the last time I checked, not illegal.
I'm sure that they'll be arraigned on some sort of (second-amendment-defying) weapons charges, and I'm sure that the press will describe their illegal sawed-off shotgun as an "assault weapon" and their few cases of 5.56 ammo as a "huge weapons cache capable of killing thousands".
There are a lot of criminals out there who have actually killed someone who should probably have been given slightly higher priority than these clowns. But these clowns fit the daily narrative.
AlphaLiberal said: "Get a fracking clue, man."
AlphaLiberal, you really need to quit watching episodes of BattleStart Gallactica and extrapolating your experiences from that work of fiction into your real life.
"Battlestar Gallactica is only a TV show." Repeat that over and over and over again. It's only a fracking TV show.
You have serious need of a psychiatrist and you can get the help you need, but you first have to admit that you have a problem.
Admitting you have a problem is the first of 12 steps to a cure.
Pastafarian:
But I haven't read anything about them actually, you know, ever DOING anything. .
You can read the news release here
"Six Michigan residents, along with two residents of Ohio and a resident of Indiana, were indicted by a federal grand jury in Detroit on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence,"
That's actually doing something.
This description of WMD is this indictment has been in federal law for some time. That said, the left would never had recognized anything less than a shiny nuclear missile pointed directly at the USA as WMD in Iraq. No amount of precursor chemicals for chem warfare, yellow cake, etc. would have ever met their standards.
That said again, it seems there was some troll bait in the Professor's last sentence which worked quite well.
That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq
No. WMD = NBC. Nuclear, Biological, Chemical.
And ignore the Libtards. Alpha, et al would be cheering these guys as "freedom fighters" if this was Iraq.
AlphaTard: a bloody and wrong invasion and occupation
Even you don't believe that. Thats why you have to wrap your propaganda in so many unsupported assertions.
WMD do not include IED's with explosively formed projectiles. In fact, including biological and chemical weapons into the same category as nuclear weapons by calling them WMD was itself a pretty weak association.
Sounds like too many politicians or poliitcal wannabes are involved here.
Certainly these people needed to have plans such as this thwarted if they were real, but to call the method WMD is absurd.
"I actually thought I was agreeing with you in referring to these Hutaree people. I guess you won't have that no way no how."
Really?
After a mini-rant about violent "punch them back twice as hard" language from "Republicans" and your sad, concerned, assertion that you've been linking to "right wing" violence, and then you say it preys on weak minds?
This is agreement? This is some sort of "yeah, sure, obviously these guys are wack jobs?"
Liberals are supposed to be better at interpersonal stuff than this. What's wrong with you?
Ham, humor-impaired, are we?
And NEVER slag Battlestar, dude! How do you know it's not our future? Or... our past?!!?
whoa!
(joke alert)
"There are a lot of criminals out there who have actually killed someone who should probably have been given slightly higher priority than these clowns. But these clowns fit the daily narrative."
I don't know, I kinda prefer catching people in the planning phase and before they actually, you know, kill people. It's a lot let messy.
Hate to say it, but I think Ann is off the map on this one. Synova has the right take on it. Given that there's plenty of evidence the Russians trucked all that stuff into Syria just before the shooting started, it can be argued forever. Colin Powell and Holbrooke were the ones who thought the case for WMDs was the strongest, so I wonder why all our resident Alinskyites are crawling out of the woodwork today without mentioning them.
I know!! Criticizing Colin Powell would be RAACIIST.
AJ Lynch said...
They will do a little more jail time than Bill Ayers and they will be banned for life from working as a law professor unlike Bernadine Dohrn.
Don't forget Ayers is now a "distinguished educator" and a graduate of the Columbia University School of Education, whic has given us the public school system we've had the last twenty years or so.
But your point is well-taken. Take away the religious component and they sound a lot like The Weathermen. Especially their preferred weapon. Anybody remember Fort Dix?
And, in case Alpha missed the bulletin, Conservatives did not rally round his terrorist attack, but were repelled by it. Alpha and garage trying to use Uncle Saul's rule of making the other side live up to it's rules by castigating people for not condemning crimes they never heard of.
Won't work.
"If these people are actual criminals, then they should certainly be prosecuted."
This is Barack Obama attempting to recreate what Janet Reno did in Waco, and for precisely the same reasons.
They want to gin up a domestic terror attack on a federal building so they can implement martial law and crack down on dissent.
They wish to suspend habeas corpus.
So, they're going to manufacture weapons charges against some marginal survivalist group and try to gin up some way to start a firefight. Maybe burn some more kids to death.
They're trying to create another Tim McVeigh - since recently all they have to point to are left-wing terrorists like Amy Bishop and the socialist who attacked the IRS building.
A Potemkin incident. A Maine.
Any old reason to implement their martial law plans to suspend the next elections where we're going to tear them a new asshole.
From their websiteHUTAREE; Christian Warrior>
As christians we all are a part of the Souls of the Body of Christ, the one true church of Christ. Not any specific man made building or any man controlled organization. This is the belief of the Hutaree soldier, as should the belief of all followers in Christ be.
We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded. Luke 22:35-37, And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?” So they said, “Nothing.” 36, Then he said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37, “For I say to you that this which is written must be accomplished in me: ‘And He was numbered with transgressors,’ For the things concerning Me have an end.” This clearly states the reason for the training and preparation of the Hutaree.
Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment. The only thing on earth to save the testimony and those who follow it, are the members of the testimony, til the return of Christ in the clouds. We, the Hutaree, are prepared to defend all those who belong to Christ and save those who aren’t. We will still spread the word, and fight to keep it, up to the time of the great coming.
Being Hutaree is to stay the Testimony of Christ alive, and follow a motto, John15:13, “Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” We are hoping that through this website we can reach out to those who have not the word of God and those who are lost in there ideas of Christ. Many of the things Christ said would happen have happened and some things are still in the works of happening.
We all must know that we all carry a cross and a soldiers cross is just as heavy as any other. Just as Jesus did we must also carry our cross to our destination our life abounds us to. All people are givin a destination by God’s will and have to continue there walk to there own golgotha. But many people, even christians don’t agree with the things we do but all we have to say is, we will not argue over the Bible, read it for what it is. We believe only what the Bible says and not on only philosophy, as many christians of this day do. Christ is our king of kings and top general of all things, for we are not of this world but we live in it.
The Hutaree will one day see its enemy and meet him on the battlefield if so God wills it. We will reach out to those who are yet blind in the last days of the kingdoms of men and bring them to life in Christ. Daniel 11:32-35, “Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33, “And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34, “Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join them by intrigue. 35 “And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.”
Synova, really. You said:
As for the Michigan thing... it's morons, completely, .
Maybe you'd like to retract your criticism of your fellow travelers?
How about Ted Nugent? Any criticism from him? He's from Michigan and urging violence.
Any criticism of Timothy McVeigh? Where do you draw your line?
I think it's pretty clear this is a separatist group. While Fundamentalist can probably be used in a pejorative sense, the trouble with using it in this context is that the pejorative and historical meanings are too mixed together. Fundamentalist in a historical sense means something specific in Christian studies--holding onto the "Fundamentals" of the Christian faith, as defined in the set of essays written by Princeton professors and others collected in The Fundamentals.
These people appear to be rather theologically distinct and condemning the rest of the church as falling a false theology. So, they are "fundamentalists" as the term is applied widely as meaning, essentially, religious extremists. But they are not linked to historic or even contemporary fundamentalism as it's more accurately applied.
And they certainly are not related to contemporary Evangelicalism which the ignorant and the malicious like to describe as fundamentalist.
AlphaLiberal said: "...charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials, and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence..."
OK, so boiling this down, the charges are:
1. Seditious conspiracy (is this a thought crime, or a guilt-by-association crime, or a little of both?)
2. Attempted use. Attempted.
3. Teaching. Seriously.
4. Possessing a firearm. (The last time I checked, that's not illegal. In fact, it's illegal for the government to make that illegal, or to make it an aggravating circumstance.)
So, like I said, it appears as though they didn't actually DO anything. Are there dead bodies, Alpha? Damaged property? Has this group ever actually done anything?
And if anyone wants to talk about WMD in Iraq, I'll tell you that if you include biological and chemical weapons in the definition of WMD (which is sadly considered correct) then of course we found them there. There was no end of the old bio and chem artillery shells that were there in all their old ammo storage areas.
The thing is that such weapons are terrible but at nowhere near the same level as nuclear weapons.
Let them do one more day in jail than Ayers and then give them teaching jobs at Universities. Can't hardly say they aren't qualified now, huh?
Its true - if the right wing were truly as violent as Alpha et al fantasize, Ayers would not be alive to day. And the University that employed him would pay too.
I dont know why anyone, Left or Right, would join a violent movement. Every cell would be infested with FBI plants. You'd have to be really dumb to go that route.
Obama egged these people on!
These guys are not far on the political spectrum from a lot of people here, as we are seeing from the defenses and rationale mounted for them by New Ham and others.
They share with so many here a love of weaponry, a hatred of Muslims, a fundamentalist view of Christianity.
In the case of Timothy McVeigh they also spout that famous Jefferson line: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
You need to ask yourselves: where do you draw the line?
"WMD do not include IED's with explosively formed projectiles. In fact, including biological and chemical weapons into the same category as nuclear weapons by calling them WMD was itself a pretty weak association.
Sounds like too many politicians or poliitcal wannabes are involved here.
Certainly these people needed to have plans such as this thwarted if they were real, but to call the method WMD is absurd."
While I agree that a IED is not WMD as most people understand it, a chemical weapon that could sicken and/or kill thousands and a biological weapon that could sicken and/or kill tens to hundreds of thousands over time certainly meets that description.
Not all WMD result in mushroom clouds.
George M:
Obama egged these people on! .
Yes, isn't that amazing? And now he's going to use this to declare martial law!
Scary part is that the racist right wing has been stocking up ammo since the black guy became President.
Beware of Libtard accusations of violence. Their pattern is to gin up false outrage just before they send their SEIU goons and MoveOn thugs out to beat down those that disagree with them.
"How about Ted Nugent? Any criticism from him? He's from Michigan and urging violence."
Great rocker, but kind of nutty like many celebrities. Serious people don't pay any attention to him. Why are you?
Kill the pig? Hey Alpha, you cute little purple pooch; Nugent was only parodying your people's phrase. Kill the pig(s) came out of the left whacko movement- Ayers, Dohrn, Bobby Rush, the criminals who committed the perfect crimes.
If you do not believe me, ask Althouse. We were around during those times.
Ah, yes, the memories. leftist terrorists making bombs in basements, blowing them selves up. Placing bombs at U of Mich., killing an innocent researcher, smashing windows during protests, spitting on the police, throwing urine and feces, bricks and bottles.
Rioting in the streets. Advocating death and destruction. Terrorist and assassination plots abounding. Alliances with European and Palestinian terrorists.
Yes, the 1960s and 70s, when the peace movement left went to war. Hee, hee, hee, you hypocrite.
Alpha said: "They share with so many here a love of weaponry, a hatred of Muslims, a fundamentalist view of Christianity."
Yep, that's me. Fundy Christianist through and through. That tag? I just really, really like linguini.
"In the case of Timothy McVeigh they also spout that famous Jefferson line: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Hey, didn't someone just fly their airplane into a building after quoting one of your favorite lines from one of your favorite philosophers in their suicide note?
Paddy O -- right on.
They are fundamentalists like Fred Phelps Family and Westboro Church are "fundamentalists."
Now. What was AL saying about Bill Ayers and Dohern?
(And Paddy -- how come a Catholic is so well versed about the Princeton episode? I know you've been a theology student, but that seems like a bump in the road that nost Protestants don't know about ....)
Alpha... can you even say it?
These guys did the exact same things as Bill Ayers.
You keep trying to do that "squirrel!" thing and say, "Hey, look over there!"
Bill Ayers. Same song different ideology.
Just say it.
Just say that Bill Ayers should be behind bars and should not be teaching at University... that what he did was wrong and that he should never have gotten off and barring a public conversion and repentance he is still the same violent wack-job he ever was.
Or else say that these new "terrorists" with their bomb plot are no big deal at all and certainly not a threat and we shouldn't worry about them *teaching*.
Do it.
Synova said: "Pretty much exactly the same as Bill Ayers is guilty and confessed of doing."
Except, if I recall correctly, didn't Ayers' group actually kill people?
And didn't Ayers himself help with an explosive that actually killed someone (albeit one of his co-conspirators?)
I could be wrong, I haven't actually read Ayers' "Dreams From my Father" yet.
Peter, I was around during that time. BFD.
Nugent often uses such violence-laced language. He kind of freaked out Neil Cavuto, who tried to give him cover.
And here you are, again, making excuses for urging violence. Creepy.
Oh, and look, there are people acting on the urgings! In Ted Nugent's home state!
Yes, isn't that amazing? And now he's going to use this to declare martial law!
And the closer is, when cornered, "Well we're just doing what YOU did!"
Alpha, you're the worst kind of racist, ginning up racial hate where none exists.
People didn't stock up on ammo when Micheal Steele or Condi Rice or Colin Powell were put into positions of power.
The only reason you are fabricating all these incidents of right-wing violence is so that you can justify the violence you intend to commit. We know how your feeble mind works. Get some help. Because you're too stupid to pull it off.
Iraq was the beginning of the downgrading of the definition of WMD. None of the weapons that Saddam was supposed to have posed a direct threat to the USA or a broad destructive threat to the region.
Lethal, vicious and ugly? Yes. WMD? Well, sort of, maybe.
Iran is another matter entirely, though.
Synova:
Alpha... can you even say it?
These guys did the exact same things as Bill Ayers. .
Uh, no. There is nothing remotely similar.
These guys were planning on murdering police. Ayers and the Weathermen, to their discredit and shame, planned on destroying property and fucked up and killed an innocent person.
The other differences are massive but your eagerness to play "I'm rubber and your glue it bounces off of me and sticks to you" is irresponsible, disturbing and childish.
AL
Sigh.
Could you do us all a favor and link to Clinton & Democrats talking about Saddam's WMD.
Pleasepleasepleaseplease.
It's a test to see if you've ever paid any attention to:
Historical Facts.
Ain't the internets grande?
"It was all an elaborate lie to rush us into war. (...)
These are historical facts."
Speculation about internal motivation are not "historical" nor "facts." It is speculation.
And it is speculation counter-indicated by the actual "historical fact" that this supposed pre-meditated "lie" was not followed up by our troops "finding" proof.
How stupid do people have to be to forget to plant the evidence?
Peophile Garage: And the closer is, when cornered, "Well we're just doing what YOU did!"
More projection. Hey Alpha, if you bring Garage in with you, we'll give you 1/2 off your first 6 sessions.
[just don't let Garage around any children]
Planning to kill police and never getting around to it is different from planning to kill enlisted men at a dance at Ft. Dix, how? Exactly?
Teaching people how to make bombs is different, how?
No difference, Alpha.
But keep defending your heroes.
Alpha said: "These guys were planning on murdering police. Ayers and the Weathermen, to their discredit and shame, planned on destroying property and fucked up and killed an innocent person."
Wow.
I just wanted to quote that in my comment, in case Alpha deletes it later.
AlphaLiberal, defending the honor of the Weather Underground.
"But I must also say that it's interesting to see that Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment are "weapons of mass destruction." That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."
Not in the least. It demonstrates with chilling clarity how easily the government redefines terms to serve its purposes, (as when two people or more planning a public protest may be charged with "racketeering" under elastic use of the RICO statutes).
Fen is deluded:
Alpha, you're the worst kind of racist, ginning up racial hate where none exists. .
Thanks for proving my point that conservatives have no problem with racism, only people pointing out racism. Evidence:
traditional guys at 11:20: "It's the white women like Sarah Palin that will overwhelm the Fifth columnists."
A teabagger holding a sign saying:
"the zoo has an African lion and the white House has a
Lyin African"
Dozens more examples where those come from of rancid racism eating away at the conservative movement.
Alpha, you're going to have to help me out here. I'm stupid. Where's the racism in either of those comments? I see a mention of race.
Does that now qualify as racism? Any mention of race, by someone of the wrong race?
Pastafarian, you are truly an idiot.
I said: "Ayers and the Weathermen, to their discredit and shame, "
And you say:
"AlphaLiberal, defending the honor of the Weather Underground."
Truly idiotic.
traditionalguy might have been alluding to the fact that tea party attendees appear to be mostly female, and mostly white.
And that sign probably referred to the fact that Obama's father was African.
Or is it racist against lions?
"But a person has to figure... you've got an administration that is able to, in less than a year, orchestrate 9-11... how hard could it have been to "find" a nuke facility?"
What administration are you referring to? Saddam's? He had nothing at all to do with 9/11 or al Qaeda. Ours? Do you suggest 9/11 was an inside job?
You've got me pegged, Alpha. You said that they were just planting bombs, not actually trying to kill anyone, and I interpreted that as a defense.
Oh, stooopid me.
No one should go to jail for "discredit and shame".
That would be sad.
They should teach at universities instead.
For "discredit and shame".
Or maybe the "discredit and shame" was the fact that they screwed up and killed someone by *accident*.
Because they were playing with bombs specifically designed to kill humans.
For the love of Pete, Robert!
I was being sarcastic.
Until a lot more details come out, we should worry that it's just a "Viper Militia" redux.
No, no, Synova. They were bombs designed to kill "pigs". That "Kill the Pigs" quote from Ted Nugent -- that was originally uttered by the Weather Underground.
Synova lies again:
No one should go to jail for "discredit and shame". .
For the record, I never said that. I said efforts to play "I'm rubber and you're glue" with this thing be comparing it to Ayers are wrong on the facts.
These people were making plans to commit mass murder. Ayers did not make plans to commit mass murder, nor did he claim to be acting on God's behalf, to my knowledge.
Why you seek to trivialize conspiracy to commit mass murder, Synova, is a question you may want to reflect on.
--------------
And I want to preserve this defense of racism by Pastafarian:
Alpha, you're going to have to help me out here. I'm stupid. Where's the racism in either of those comments? I see a mention of race.
Does that now qualify as racism? Any mention of race, by someone of the wrong race? .
Following your logic we then should have invaded Michigan with 150,000 troops?
Except. Who wants Michigan? There is no strategic or economic reason to aquire it. It contains Detroit.
Oh wait.....
But Kirk, if I remember correctly, that group of miscreants possessed several machine guns.
Of course, they were ancient semi-functioning water-cooled Brownings from WWI, and their owners were collectors of such antique weapons, and had all the necessary licenses...but still, they're AUTOMATIC weapons.
Thank goodness for the BATF, they really saved us from a massacre there.
@AlphaLiberal, who finally admitted: "These guys were planning on murdering police. Ayers and the Weathermen, to their discredit and shame, planned on destroying property and fucked up and killed an innocent person."
So you admit that Barack Obama's friend is a domestic terrorist who killed innocent people to advance his radical ideology?
You admit that the Weathermen actually committed their acts. That they were not just planning terrorism, but actually executed their plans and actually did generate a body count.
You admit these things, finally, do you Alpha?
Obama's friend, the domestic terrorist Bill Ayers, killed an innocent people with their terrorist bombs, according to AlphaLiberal.
You're a really good Obama spokesman there, dude.
I think I can safely now conclude that Bobby Gibbs' job is safe.
Synova displays more ignorance:
Speculation about internal motivation are not "historical" nor "facts." It is speculation..
Uh, no. This is part of the well-established record that they chose to go with WMD as a way to justify the invasion and occupation.
See:
* The Downing Street Memo.
* White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card: "You don't roll out a new product in August."
* Collin Powell's lies to the United Nations.
The record is very long on this point. First they decided to invade Iraq, as they and their allies had sought for years. Then they contrived the WMD excuse.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/
Alpha said: "nor did he claim to be acting on God's behalf, to my knowledge."
You're right, Alpha. The taint of religion in the motive makes the crime so much more repugnant.
And I'd just like to preserve, for all time, these defenses of cannibalism and bestiality by AlphaLiberal, when he said:
"Truly idiotic."
Because I'm pretty sure that what he was referring to here was the notion that we outlaw cannibalism or bestiality.
AlphaLiberal, you just started another rant about a President who has been out of office for over a year.
And you want to talk about stubborn?
Let the hate go, dude.
It's consuming you. It has clouded your judgment. You are in the fog of hatred, dude. Let it go.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward recovery.
And, again, I will say as I have here before:
"The conservative movement today is about where the 1960s movement was a couple years after the Weathermen started blowing things up."
Now, you can try to chill things out or you can make excuses for the nutjobs and sociopaths in your midsts.
As we can see, too many, not all, conservatives are apologists for the violent nutjobs. Ayers has nothing to do with this.
And, can we at least agree these guys are terrorists?
NewHam, see originating post about "WMD".
You're really not very bright, are you?
Good question:
It appears that the Obama administration has captured eight suspected terrorists, and prevented a deadly attack. Putting aside whether the right would give the administration credit for stopping terrorism before it happens, will we have to endure the same inane questions from the usual suspects, or do those rules not apply when the accused are white Christians? .
Good job by the Obama Administration in capturing these terrorists before they could kill.
Do you all support waterboarding them to find other such terrorists plots before time runs out?
@AlphaLiberal,who wrote: "A Philadelphia Democrat has been charged with threatening to murder Rep. Eric Cantor and his family. Cantor is a Republican. The 33-year-old - Norman Leboon - made the threats in a YouTube video. The video has since been taken down, but FBI agents included a transcript of the threat in a sworn affidavit."
Oh wait no ... it wasn't AlphaLibera who revealed this actual arrest of Democrat Party terrorists.
He can't be bothered to report those facts when Democrats are arrested for video threats that aren't third-party hearsay.
Breaking:
FBI Arrests Obama Donor For Death Threats Against Eric Cantor & Family
oops - that doesn't fit the narrative.
Alpha Liberal...Please do not become too offended by my mentioning that Sarah Palin is a white woman.Calm down. She wont re-establish Jim Crow laws. She will just avoid the automatic presumption from Progressives and the Media that white men are angry rascists who are too blind to see all the good in the other ethnic groups like Hispanic, Asian and African Americans. There is good and bad in all ethnic groups. The labeling of white men as the eternal enemy was not my idea. It was and is your only idea.
"Do you all support waterboarding them to find other such terrorists plots before time runs out?"
Barack Obama doesn't that's for sure. But he does support murdering them from 20,000 feet with a drone flown safely from Florida, even if that means taking out innocent women and children bystanders as collateral damage.
Your president is a fucking murderer, dude.
Have you no shame, AlphaLibra?
While AlphaLiberal hyperventilates about what "right wing terrorists" might do , over in Moscow his fellow travelers have just killed dozens of people.
While AlphaLiberal hyperventilates about what "right wing terrorists" might do , over in Moscow his fellow travelers have just killed dozens of people.
"I missed that part of the indictment, where these Yooper brain-doners had some sort of Dr. Evil laboratory in their bunker, and they were close to perfecting their genetically-engineered biological weapon."
My comment about chem-bio weapons had to do with a comparison to nuclear weapons, not anything specific to this group under discussion. Chem-bio weapons in general, whether they kill a hundred or ten thousand, are in my mind WMD thus my statement that not every WMD results in a mushroom cloud.
I specifically said that IEDs do not fit the normally understood definition of WMD, although they do fit the long-standing definition in federal criminal law. I also think any comparison between the WMD we were looking for in Iraq and normal IEDs is silly. Then again, I think the Professor was just laying some troll-bait in her post and is now sitting back and enjoying the show (I know I would be).
Finally, it doesn't take some "Yooper brain-doners" to make a weapon that does indeed cause mass destruction. Timothy McVeigh is one example.
While we're on the subject, it should be noted that the FBI nabbed another Democrat Party terrorist this morning, arresting Barack Obama donor Norman LeBoon.
Leboon, a Democrat and donor to Barack Obama, was arrested by the FBI after posting video threats to kill a Jew's family, according to a post at TalkingPointsMemo - an internet website frequented by known domestic terrorists.
Will the ACLU find that some element of this case is an infringement on the civil rights of every American? Will Alpha Liberal make an effort to explain how this is just a small group of fanatics and how wrong it would be to stereotype all Christian fundamentalists from this miniscule fringe group?......My own thread: The minority Sunni Muslims in Iraq killed the majority Shiites in a brisk way. Saddam even had a machine--a machine!--for dipping the nether regions of his opponents into acid. I think it is fair to say that the Sunnis were more violent and corrupt in their oppression of the downtrodden than, say, the whites in Rhodesia. The Sunnis, like the whites, are now living in exile. The exiled Sunnis are understood to be victims of American imperialism. The white farmers are understood to have received their comeupance for past sins.....It is said that from the twisted timber of humanity no straight structure was ever built. From the twisted timber of liberalism you couldn't even make the seat to an outhouse toilet.
Dang Althouse. You really know how to bait the trolls. They are frothing at the mouth.
Hey stop calling these people Yoopers. Yoopers - by definition – live in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (i.e the U.P.) This folks are from the lower Peninsula (L.P. or Mitten). That makes them – by definition – trolls. Why trolls? Because they live below the bridge (The Mackinac bridge).
Alpha,
If you were around during that time, you are about as old as I am. Or you were a small child. Either way, if you are middle aged, you still act like a hormonal teenager on meth. You never evolved into adulthood.
I hope Obama saves us from Christian Crazies. Turn your laserlike focus from those Lebensraum Jews to the Christian Crazies, Hussein. For Allah's sake.
Sinclair Lewis wrote a very good book about this back in 1938 or so. It was about how easy it was for the Fascists and NAZIs to take over the US. (Remember that the founder of Fascism, Mussolini was a hardcore Marxist till the day he died. And than Hitler and his crowd always called themselves "National Socialists" Never NAZIs)
Time for all to read the book again. Download it as a text file and it can be easily read on any phone.
Download here:
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html
John Henry
WV: Menfri as in "Set all men free"
TMink:
If the charges are true they should die in jail.
And that's the real problem isn't it?
This is the same government who lies to us at the drop of a hat.
It's the same government that declared that people who read and discuss the writings of the founders of the country are likely to be domestic terrorists. It's the government who told us that veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan were likely to be domestic terrorists.
It's the government who told us that Tea Party activists are racists and domestic terrorists.
I believe we will be seeing more and more armed assaults against American citizens, dressed up as anti-terrorism or law enforcement operations.
In fact, including biological and chemical weapons into the same category as nuclear weapons by calling them WMD was itself a pretty weak association.
While I agree that chemical weapons are unlikely to do anything like the degree of damage that nuclear weapons easily could, the same is not true for biological weapons — which, possessing the biological capability of growth, could as an out of control pandemic potentially kill many times the people that even a considerable quantity of nuclear weapons might be capable of.
It's worth noting in this regard that Saddam's Iraq had a fully functioning and completely hidden biological warfare program until the mid-1990's, well after Gulf War I, until two of Saddam's brothers-in-law defected carrying word of the project to the West (Saddam later had the two executed).
Saddam had also secreted away critical parts and documentation for his atomic bomb project, ready to be recovered and used to instantly resume work on nuclear weapons once the post-Gulf War heat was off. This has been documented by Saddam's chief nuclear scientist Mahdi Obeidi in his book The Bomb in My Garden, published since the 2003 invasion.
Moreover, pace AL's claim, George Bush didn't claim that Saddam's nuclear threat was imminent, but rather stated explicitly that it was not imminent, but that action had to be taken before it became so — and I agree.
That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
Oops
The conservative movement today is about where the 1960s movement was a couple years after the Weathermen started blowing things up."
Now, you can try to chill things out or you can make excuses for the nutjobs and sociopaths in your midsts.
Kewllllll, so that means we're just about to achieve cultural and then politcal ACENDENCE, right Alpha, and our former terrorists can become professors and freinds of future POTUS', right?
Man I'd be worried were I you Alpha....
Oddly enough I agree. Only in Alpha's estimation being assocaited with "violence" will sink the RIght, but i don't see it that way...did it "sink" the Left Alpha?
Or rather did not the Left begin its Long March Thru the Institutions of Society, leaving it in a place where it cold rehabilitae it's violent members?
You'd be in better moral/historical shape if you guys had denounced and shunned the likes of Hoffman and the Chicago 7 and clamoured for the imprisonment of the your era's Dorhns and Ayers'.
You didn't so you said violence is OK, as long as your ideology wins out in the politcal market place.
because they made IEDs after we invaded them
Maybe. But they had other weapons just as deadly or more so, tanks, artillery, etc. If and IED is a weapon of mass destruction, then surely a tank qualifies too.
AlphaLiberal will receive the electroshock therapy he so desparately requires under Republican stewardship of the death panels.
So, there's that to look forward to.
The FBI has been engaged in this sort of crime busting for a long time. Some groups are left, some are right and this has always been the case. Trying to settle on one group without mentioning the others is another Alinsky dodge.
Alpha's problem is that he has the White House talking points, but all the overt violence is on the Left.
Sorry about that.
PS for Peter V. Alpha claims to have been an undergrad in the 90s, but, yes, he does sound like he's our age.
One of the charges is teaching the use of explosives.
Perhaps the Feds should investigate Amazon. I just checked and they have dozens of books on explosives. How to make them, how to use them.
Someone mentioned their kids making IED's. My cousin and I, back in the 50's when we were 10-12 years old used to do this too. We would go to the hardware store, buy shotgun shells for the powder. We would then fashion various kinds of bombs. Not terrible explosive but probably enough to legally be WMD/IEDs today.
I still have a scar on my neck as a result of throwing a handful of 22 cal blanks in a fire to see what would happen. It was very exciting but once was enough.
John Henry
My God, Alpha. How can you ignore this.? Leftist violence in Searchlight. Violent Obama supporters attack media bus. Projectiles thrown. Death threats. WMDs suspected. How come you don’t report on leftist violence Alpha? Look at the source. It is credible. As credible as TPM. How come you ignore leftist and Obama violence? Is this Obama’s rhetoric causing this? Pelosi’s panderings? Reid’s revolution? How can you ignore this Alpha.
I just love using their own shit against them. Style for style.
AL, why lie so brazenly?
Ayers et al planned to bomb a dance at Ft Dix, killing recruits and their innocent dates. Their bomb, luckily, blew up theiir townhouse.
Why should anybody take your hackery seriously?
:Ann said: " That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."
I'm sorry, Ann. It must be very disappointing to see so many here unable to get the obvious sarcasm. Iraq is still so juicy, that some would rather assume you a fool than pass on a chance to argue it again.
Alpha Liberal: Blood for oil. Halliburton. Bushitler. Next you'll be posting pictures of puppets.
Well of course the use of WMD have become rather slippery since they went missing in Iraq and have been conveniently redefined as needed. Much like the phrase "imminent threat' which was not directly used by Bush, but first stated in The National Security Strategy of the United States in 2002,and implied and then stated directly by Ari Fleischer. I suspect Ann is having a little Saussurian fun, but at whose expense?
Synova: Alpha... can you even say it?
These guys did the exact same things as Bill Ayers. .
Alpha: Uh, no. There is nothing remotely similar.
alpha is retardedly correct. the hutaree only planned to kill cops. the weathermen did kill cops.
Julius Hoffman -
"Unless, of course, you are being facetious, knowing full well that the government has here made an especially loose and liberal and dramatic and stupid definition of what a WMD is."
I think that is precisely Althouse's point. You have a pack of stupid civilian lawyers attempting to redefine what a WMD is so they can pad their precious criminal justice charges into far more severe terrorism penalties to boost the pressure for a plea bargain to get their precious career enhancing conviction! Without a thought given to how dumb it is to legally equate a bomb with a store of 5 pounds of weaponized anthrax.
And what if we one day find someone with 4 NORK nerve gas shells smuggled in when we have "majestic civilian court precedent" that the penalty for someone using a WMD "deadly propane cannister" in a bomb or attempting to construct or deploy a EFP weapon that can take out 6 people is worth 5 years extra jail time...which the lawyers can then argue the nerve gas terrorist should also get, at the max?
Does the military then have the ability to expoit the redefinition these brainless lawyers are making about what a WMD is? If a propane cannister or a EFP is a WMD, then surely any heavy artillery shell or machine gun is. And then the military can used relaxed rules of engagement - and "take out" more people...
Mind you that few of these lawyers have served. The Republican contingent of such clueless ones sought to charge Padilla and his plan to use cooking gas in an apartment as "a plot to use a WMD". The democrat contingent of civilian lawyers likely thinks a M-16 is a WMD.
International military law and NPTs are very clear. There are 3 categories of WMD. Nuclear. Chem. Bio.
They are so deadly and control of them is so critical and keeping a lid on them so growingly difficult that the best thing civilian prosecutors can do is butt out and stop trying to expand the list to far less serious things like jet planes, cooking gas, EFPs, .50 cal rifles. You expand the list and make cooking gas or homemade bombs the legal equivalent of a nuke weapon - you not only look like idiots - you may hurt efforts to check real WMD by expanding the "forbidden list".
"Yes, the 8 kiloton nuke weapon got through, and that is very regrettable. But the focus on homemade bombs got the Heroes of Law Enforcement several major indictments and several convictions so far!
Synova writes:
And anyone who thinks that Althouse wasn't pointing out the absurdity of using that term by comparing it to Iraq is firmly in that club of morons.
--
It's embarrassing that someone has to explain it.
Comrade X-
So what you are saying is that Alpha is inversely correct or per usual has it sdrawkcab ssa.
The reality is he doesn't know that much about Bill Ayers and the Weathermen because Liberals decided the topic was verboten.
They're all for free speech-until they're against it.
Americans weren't allowed to discuss it.
I really don't know why.
Perhaps Baby Boomers didn't want to revisit how they treated the poor kids that were drafted into Vietnam while they smoked pot on campus?
Because the intent of Bill Ayers girlfriend-before she blew herself up-was to bomb a dance for the enlisted.
Not the building-but the enlisted and their dates attending the dance at Fort Dix, New Jersey.
Obama has never had to answer for having one of his first fund raisers in the living room of Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn.
Not one damn explanation or regret.
Obama never has to answer for a lot of things.
The pattern continues to date.
Hoosier Daddy deflects:
From what little I read about these guys, they sound like a throwback to the Jim Jones cult..
Spin, baby, spin!
Alpha if tying these guys to conservatives makes you happy then by all means keep on making a fool of yourself.
mariner wrote: "I believe we will be seeing more and more armed assaults against American citizens, dressed up as anti-terrorism or law enforcement operations."
I wish I did not share your fear. If that does happen, then more and more citizens will indeed rise up and misbehave. They will continue with peaceful meetings for awhile, but they will eventually return force for force.
I do not think that the folks in Washington understand this. Maybe some of them are being clued in, those getting the actual death threats are I bet. But I worry that things will get ugly and blood will be spilled.
I hope I am just being pessimistic.
Trey
Alpha, you link a quote by Ted Nugent saying he's calling for violence. Did you actually read the part where he said:
And, in November we gotta vote the pigs out of office, because this is a redistribution of wealth.
So now you're equating voting with violence?
Explosive WMD, oh come on. More like WAD, as in shot by a few White Asses (unintentionally in service to) Democrats.
This small group of civil anarchist "patriots" will be equated with all fundy Christianists, who will be conflated with small government Tea Partiers and, next thing we know, all outspoken opposition to the current government will be thought of as Chechyan terrorism.
WV: cipere, no worries, Big Daddy's here
Ya you are.
There is a teapot theory to government-the American system has an escape valve for people not being heard-and in fact I hope the press continues to ignore them.
It's called the voting booth and it's coming in November.
And in other news:
"A Philadelphia man was charged Monday with threatening to kill House Minority Whip Eric Cantor, a week after the Virginia Republican said his campaign office was shot at in the aftermath of the health care bill passing Congress. ...."
That nutjob on Youtube who threatened Cantor is beautiful. He's actually kind of convincing. It's entirely believable that the 12th Imam would show up on Youtube in his bathrobe looking like he's sporting a hangover and refusing to grant us mercy for taking down his videos. It's got to be in the scripture that this would happen.
AlphaLiberal: Timothy McVeigh wore a t-shirt on the day he carried out his mass murder with the slogan favored by so many right wingers today:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Ah yes, that quote from that notorious right-winger, Thomas Jefferson, founder of the Democratic Party.
Jesus jumped-up Christ in a sidecar, but you're a transparent idiot, Alpha.
Another "Shut up" from a Liberal in Power. (Stolen power, but power nonetheless)
http://tinyurl.com/ylhpnyf
Look out mama there's a white boat comin' up the river...
For your enjoyment and warning, here he is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_jgNp7t0tw
"...Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles..."
That's an awful lot of dangerous-looking wording to describe an amateurish pipe bomb cobbled together by some idiot Yooper out of schedule 40 pipe, Pyrodex, spit, and paranoia.
No, if they were really making EFPs, then this isn't your average pipe bomb. EFPs are relatively difficult to make, since you need a mill. And they're not the right tool for the job, which makes me think this was probably a bunch of guys shooting off their mouths and not a serious plot.
Pastafarian - "I'm sure that they'll be arraigned on some sort of (second-amendment-defying) weapons charges, and I'm sure that the press will describe their illegal sawed-off shotgun as an "assault weapon" and their few cases of 5.56 ammo as a "huge weapons cache capable of killing thousands".
Pathetic, if it wasn't so true.
IN my neck of the woods, some guy beat up his wife in a domestic dispute. (She was turning tricks and had been arrested the day before with other women working for an escort service).
Cops then arrested the guy and reported seizing an "arsenal of weaponry and ammunition".
The reporter declared it a "grave menace", and that Deputy Chief Brenda said included "multiple deadly firearms of several makes and "over 1,000 rounds of ammunition". And, had an entire area turned into a place to make homemade ammunition and several containers of explosives related to that were safely removed from the house.."
Turned out the guy was a duck hunter, had a .22 and a deer rifle that had been in his family for 3 generations. The "arsenal of ammo"
mosty consisted of two 500 round boxes of .22 ammo, supplanted by a few boxes of shotgun shells and ten rounds of 30-30. The "place to make homemade ammunition" stocked with "explosives", that Law Enforcement hero Brenda mentioned was his shotgun reloading kit.
All that came out when he sued to get his weapons back, saying that he did not beat his wife up, but had slapped her once.
Then a lawsuit to recover value of 1 shotgun and the deer rifle because they somehow got sold at auction.....
==================
Robert Cook - "But I must also say that it's interesting to see that Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment are "weapons of mass destruction." That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."
Robert responds - "Not in the least. It demonstrates with chilling clarity how easily the government redefines terms to serve its purposes, (as when two people or more planning a public protest may be charged with "racketeering" under elastic use of the RICO statutes)."
Sometimes Mr Cook will post with something of unusually good truth and clarity. This is such a time. It is not a habit with him, but such rare occasions of insight should be appreciated by all.
Many lawyers believe law is not black and white, but a flexible instrument in a good lawyers hands. That the real excitment is in exploring and expanding those gray areas lawyers may flourish at. It means more money and power to them.
Beria - "Just show me the person, Comrade Stalin, and I can find the charge. Our laws are that useful to us."
Accounting consultant testifying to Congress during IRS hearings in 1997. "Part of the problem, Mr. Chairman, is the Federal Tax Code has expanded over the years into something that even tax lawyers cannot give a confident answer to. I would say that most of our business clients and I daresay much of the American public can do their tax reporting honestly, and still be fined or prosecuted criminally. If the IRS agent or other members of law enforcement make a fair or purposeful but not so fair because the person is targeted for prosecution for unrelated offenses - different interpretation.
"AlphaLiberal: Timothy McVeigh wore a t-shirt on the day he carried out his mass murder with the slogan favored by so many right wingers today:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Well, what did you expect, "Give peace a chance."?
He was a nut, what his T-shirt says is some great instructional tool?
I'm not blaming liberals for this nutcase that threatened Cantor. Nuts have their own party and the ideology is random.
How about Ted Nugent? Any criticism from him? He's from Michigan and urging violence.
Did you even read your own link? He said we have to "vote the pigs out of office in November.."
Now going to the polls is violence to you now?
Any criticism of Timothy McVeigh? Where do you draw your line?
Actually Alpha, McVeigh railed against the First Gulf War and condemned the US for it. That sure makes him sound like he's from your side of the aisle rather than the conservative one.
Man arrested for threatening to kill Cantor
Ann, I defend Bush to this day on the WMDs, but more as an honest mistake than to pretend that IUDs are WMDS.
I think the best way to understand how not finding them still justifies the invasion for WMDS, is this metaphor.
Imagine a man approaches your car and points a gun at you and your family. So when he is distracted, you pull out a gun, too and shoot him deal. The cops come later and they look over his gun and discover that actually it was unloaded. Does that mean you go to jail? Well, Ann certainly knows the answer, but for the benefit of everyone else, the answer is no. You had a reasonable believe that you and your family was in danger, so you were justified in shooting.
In other words, the act is not justified by the truth, but by the facts as best as you could ascertain at the time. And contrary to revisionist history, everyone thought saddam had them. 15 nations of the UN agreed he had them in resolution 1441.
Besides, i said before even a shot was fired, "what was the worst that could happen? we liberate a country and get nothing out of it. i can live with that." and all these years later, you know what? i still can.
btw, that has nothing to do with the legal case, either, which is about 100 times simpler. do you know how the first gulf war ended? with a cease fire agreement. now, i know this is very complicated legal stuff, but try to follow along, my liberal friends. under a cease fire agreement, you must... cease firing. if either side starts to fire, then the agreement is off, and the war is back on. And guess what saddam did? he kept firing? he kept targeting our planes and trying to kill Bush Sr. once he did that, we had ever legal right to go after him. it was just a matter of when we chose to do so.
Robert Cook said:Not in the least. It demonstrates with chilling clarity how easily the government redefines terms to serve its purposes,
Yet Cookie has absolutely no problem getting rid of all private insurers and turning the whole program over to the government. Which he says redefines terms to serve its purposes.
The cognitive dissonance is breathtaking.
These guys are Christian so they are guilty.
The Philly perp, Leboon, is a poor, unfortunate, misguided Muslim. Chris Mathews will wonder how and why America turned Leboon into a hater.
AL,
While I am in no way an expert on explosives I do know enough to understand that you use different bombs to achieve different things.
Nail bombs contain shrapnel and are designed to kill and maim; they do not do much damage to property (relatively speaking). In other words they are designed to be used against people.
Now let us look at the facts:
-Ayers' group built a bomb primarily designed to maim and kill.
-They planned to use it during a social event in which officers, their wives/girlfriends, and the staff running the event would all be in close quarters and not spread out.
You either have to be stupid or lying if you claim that they only wanted to harm property.
Sinclair Lewis wrote a very good book about this back in 1938 or so. It was about how easy it was for the Fascists and NAZIs to take over the US.
Reminds me of that quote about how fascism always is descending on the US but always lands in Europe.
You either have to be stupid or lying if you claim that they only wanted to harm property.
Well in Alpha's case it most likely both.
So I'm confused now. When Lt. Hassan did his thing at Ft. Hood, we were told that judging all muslims based on his actions was a horrible thing that only neanderthal-like Rethuglikkkans would do.
Now I see its a tiny christian cult that was doing something terrorist-like, and suddenly its okay to judge not just all Christians but apparently everyone Alphaliberal doesn't like.
Ummm... are you all even aware of what massive hypocrites you are? Or do you live in blissful ignorance of it?
The Queen - "But I must also say that it's interesting to see that Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment are "weapons of mass destruction." That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."
Good lord...is there anything you or the other wing nuts here won't throw out there to muddy the waters of common sense?
First of all, they didn't find squat in Iraq, including any weapons that were remotely resembling WMD..."as represented by the Bush administration." Or don't you remember the bullshit claims of chemical wagons or huge quantities of Anthrax or aluminum tubes designed for the production of nuclear missiles?
But just for the hell of it, what would you or any of the other wing nuts here call a "Explosively Formed Projectile," filled with a deadly chemical, that was fired into an airport terminal like LAX or O'Hare?
Would that be massive enough for you?
Your comment is just the standard right wing drivel your fat radio friend loves to throw out there to stir up the mini-minds of the tea bagger crowd.
Ayers did not make plans to commit mass murder,
?
Not only Fort Dix ...
"Ayers and Dohrn were credibly accused, in classified testimony before a Senate subcommittee in 1974, of involvement in the murder of a police officer in San Francisco, as well as an attempted (and unsuccessful) anti-personnel bombing in Detroit."
"Ayers and Dohrn were never prosecuted for their alleged involvement in Weatherman terrorism because of government misconduct in gathering evidence against them. But Ayers has freely admitted to involvement in Weatherman bomb plots, and he has said he does not regret planting bombs. Ayers has defended his actions, arguing, 'The reason we weren’t terrorists is that we did not commit random acts of terror against people.'"
Please note that since the actions planned were not "random acts" therefore they were not "terrorism."
Mmm. Is there any evidence that the flying of the planes into the WTC and the Pentagon were "random" acts?
Whew! That's a relief!
I thought we were the victims of terrorism in 2001.
These guys don't look at all like Black Panthers, so imagine they'll be vigorously prosecuted.
but more as an honest mistake than to pretend that IUDs are WMDS.
See? Bush is gone, and we still have Bushisms.
:-))))
First of all, they didn't find squat in Iraq, including any weapons that were remotely resembling WMD..."as represented by the Bush administration." Or don't you remember the bullshit claims of chemical wagons or huge quantities of Anthrax or aluminum tubes designed for the production of nuclear missiles?
Of course those several hundred chemical weapons were absolutely NOTHING, please move on...
You do remember that WMD's were only ONE reason for the war, right? Civil rights violations and non-compliance with the UN resolutions were also reasons?
And that folks such as Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, AlGore, and John Kerry, a veteran of Vietnam, IIRC, ALL claimed that Saddam had WMD's...right? From 1998 until 2002, LONG BEFORE Chimpy McBusHitler LIHOP'd/MIHOP'd 9/11 to leverage American Empire into the Muslim World.
Hoosier - So now you're adding Ted Nugent to your list of heroes?
Duh.
But many people, even christians don’t agree with the things we do
The understatement of the year.
No nothing random about Ayers' group including bombingsagainst families, including children, in their homes.
Alpha- The Ayers' gang made bombs packed with nails! It was designed to kill and main people not simply damage property.
Even Jeremy would not stoop so low as to defend the likes of Bill Ayers.
Joe, anybody who is still defending out invasion of Iraq, based on WMD is an uneducated, uninformed dolt.
And the "several hundred chemical weapons" you mention were found in Iraq in the aftermath of the 2003 invasion is a crock.
NOTE:
Document 39: Statement by David Kay on the Interim Progress Report of the Iraq Survey Group (ISG) before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, the House Committee on Appropriations, Subcommittee on Defense, and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, October 2, 2003. Unclassified.
"In the aftermath of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces failed to uncover production facilities for, or stocks of, weapons of mass destruction."
And please...the ridiculous notion that George W. Bush (the anti-nation builder), went into Iraq because he just wanted to help those poor people out...is just that...ridiculous.
*Oh, and anybody who's taken the time to read anything objective about the skewed intelligence Bush used to sell everybody on the fiasco he created knows it was created by the neocons (ever hear of "Curveball?) and then dished out to make Americans believe the lies that got us into the mess.
Ask Colin Powell if he still believes in that Anthrax crap he was instrumental in spoon feeding the world.
First of all, they didn't find squat in Iraq, including any weapons that were remotely resembling WMD….
On the contrary, they found Saddam's nuclear bomb project parts and documentation (including a fissionable-uranium concentrating centrifuge) that Hussein's chief nuclear scientist Mahdi Obeidi led them to. Note that ever since Gulf War I, when mere months from completing its nuclear weapon, Saddam's Iraq had possessed complete plans for a (Fat Man-type implosive) nuclear bomb, lacking only concentrated fissionable U-235 to finish it.
Jeremy said...
The Queen - "But I must also say that it's interesting to see that Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment are "weapons of mass destruction." That blows a big hole in the notion that there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq."
Good lord...is there anything you or the other wing nuts here won't throw out there to muddy the waters of common sense?
I hate to tell you, but, as far as the indictment is concerned, Mrs. Meade was being droll. She was criticizing it. It appears to have gone over your head.
If you want to argue Iraq, then we have to haul in your boy, William Jefferson Blyth III, and his CIA director. You remember Operation Desert Fox, don't you? The one that was supposed to "degrade" Saddam's capacity to make WMDs.
Either that or make everybody forget about that other desert fox.
(No, not Rommel. Monica)
People here are still yapping about Ayers?
Been in a coma?
Are you actually trying to defend these idiots because of something Ayers did...40 years ago?
Joe, anybody who is still defending out invasion of Iraq, based on WMD is an uneducated, uninformed dolt.
So there WEREN'T WMD's found?
And pleazse note I didn't base my support wholly on WMD's as neither did the POTUS nor the COngress, but I do note that many Progressive Icons, AlGore and J F Kerry all believed that Saddam possessed WMD's...and it wasn't just Chimpy McBusHitler, was it? Or even his Administration?
Joe - drag your head out of your ass and try reading something before posting inane comments about the WMD that were discovered in Iraq after the 2003 invasion.
For a change...
Once again:
Document 39: Statement by David Kay on the Interim Progress Report of the Iraq Survey Group (ISG) before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, the House Committee on Appropriations, Subcommittee on Defense, and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, October 2, 2003. Unclassified.
"In the aftermath of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces failed to uncover production facilities for, or stocks of, weapons of mass destruction."
Are you actually trying to defend these idiots because of something Ayers did...40 years ago?
So there's a time limit on murder and attempted murder? So now Hitler, Pol Pot, Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde are all kewlllll, because it all happened 40 years ago?
I don't see anyone "defending" them I do see folks suggesting that they get teh same punishment that Ayers and Dohrn have recieved....TENURE.
uneducated: "I hate to tell you, but, as far as the indictment is concerned, Mrs. Meade was being droll. She was criticizing it."
Oh, bullshit, that wasn't all she was saying.
She said that the notion that there weren't WMD found in Iraq was basically incorrect, if one is to define "Explosively Formed Projectiles" as being WMD.
There's nothing "droll" about that.
It's just right wing drivel.
Now ask her for your cookie, suck-ass.
Hey Jeremy please note AlGore in 2002 and 1998, or John F Kerry in 1998, or Bill Clinton in 1998...get back to me.
Also please examine the AUMF and note that WMD's were only ONE set of reasons, UN non-compliance and Human RIghts Violations also figured intot he mix...
Drag your head out of YOUR @rse and note the First Gulf War, waged by Iraq v. Iran, and the SECOND Gulf War waged by Iraq v. Kuwayt, and the actions of the Iraqi Gov't in Kurdistan and Shi'i Iraq, during the First, Second, and the aftermath of the Second Gulf Wars.
All of which provided cause for war. now you might not want to discuss them, because that takes away from the spittle-flecked hatred of Boooosh, but they remain nonetheless, within the AUMF.
Joe said..."So there's a time limit on murder and attempted murder?"
I'm not a lawyer, but if Ayers indeed murdered somebody, why aren't they dragging him into court right now and trying him for the crime?
It's my understanding that there is no "time limit" on murder.
P.S. Can you tell me where those WMD you keep harping on were found in Iraq after the 2003 invasion?
If hadn't know you weren't such a strong supporter of Iraq War, I would have assumed you were joking. By your definition, every country in the world has "weapons of mass destruction" but I don't think that justifies invading and installing new regimes in any country we choose.
I apologize Jeremy, I ought not have talked about your @rse...I'll try to leave the invective home.
But I tell you be civl or expect no response(s) from me beyond this point.
If you can't make your point without calling people "Suck@rse" and the like I'm afraid you're not really worth debating.
Joe - YOU said the following:
"Of course those several hundred chemical weapons were absolutely NOTHING, please move on..."
Explain what that means.
And please, I don't need the blather relating to anything anybody "thought" they had or how wonderful Bush really was...just tell me when and where the WMD destruction you claim were found...were found.
It's my understanding that there is no "time limit" on murder.
Ayers was released on technicalities, involving police improprieites concerning his case, not that he wasn't guilty. As even he admits.
P.S. Can you tell me where those WMD you keep harping on were found in Iraq after the 2003 invasion?
In weapons dumps by Coalition forces. Had you read someting besides screeds by Medea Benjamina dn the HuffPo you'd ahve learned of them as they occurred.
Joe - Sorry but edutcher was sucking up to The Queen.
There's quite a bit of that here every day.
It's called sycophancy.
I'm not a lawyer, but if Ayers indeed murdered somebody, why aren't they dragging him into court right now and trying him for the crime?
Wikipedia: “Due to the illegal tactics of FBI agents involved with the program, government attorneys requested all weapons- and bomb-related charges be dropped against the Weather Underground, including charges against Ayers.”
Joe - Can you read?
Once again:
Document 39: Statement by David Kay on the Interim Progress Report of the Iraq Survey Group (ISG) before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, the House Committee on Appropriations, Subcommittee on Defense, and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, October 2, 2003. Unclassified.
"In the aftermath of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces failed to uncover production facilities for, or stocks of, weapons of mass destruction."
That mean none, nada, zero...
The lawmakers pointed to an unclassified summary from a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center regarding 500 chemical munitions shells that had been buried near the Iranian border, and then long forgotten, by Iraqi troops during their eight-year war with Iran, which ended in 1988.
The U.S. military announced in 2004 in Iraq that several crates of the old shells had been uncovered and that they contained a blister agent that was no longer active. Neither the military nor the White House nor the CIA considered the shells to be evidence of what was alleged by the Bush administration to be a current Iraqi program to make chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/21/AR2006062101837.html
So hopefully that will shut you up! They were found, I'm not lying...and you STILL haven't discussed the other reasons for war CITED BY THE AUMF....
Would that be because they interfere with your hatred of all things Booosh?
Clever, but stupid, all at once. As a lawyer, do you really assume that just because so prosecutor has charged IED's as statutory weapons of mass destruction that means that they such are within the meaning of the statute? As a citizen. would the fact that IED's fit a statutory definition of WMD and that Iraq had or could make them be enough to justify a wildly costly (in blood, treasure and internatonal standng)adventure like the invasion of Irag if Iraq had no nuclear capacity and no capacity to deploy major biological agents--as was in fact the case? The "big hole" if any is in your logic.
In the aftermath of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces failed to uncover production facilities for, or stocks of, weapons of mass destruction." Which may or may not be true...but does not bear on the EXISTENCE of WMD's in Iraq. Which ALSO true....
Please read your OWN eveidnece with a view towrds reading comprehension and see what it SYAS, not what you THINK it says.
And still no discussion of the UN Resolutions made in 1991/92 and the later ones....or the Human Rights Violations cited by the AUMF.
Nor a discussion of AlGore or Clinton in 1998...
Now Cookie doesn't have to do this, he opposed(s) the War(s) in Iraq, 1998, 2003, and on....he gets a pass on the silliness, because, though he's WRONG, he's at least consistent, unlike say you.
As a citizen. would the fact that IED's fit a statutory definition of WMD and that Iraq had or could make them be enough to justify a wildly costly (in blood, treasure and internatonal standng)adventure like the invasion of Irag if Iraq had no nuclear capacity and no capacity to deploy major biological agents--as was in fact the case? The "big hole" if any is in your logic.
or the bombing of the country in 1998? To degrade these "capabilities?" It's a vital question to determine if you're merely a Leftwing Hack or at dedicated Leftwinger, who doesn't mind a little genocide.
Michael McNeil - I'm fully aware of why Ayers was not prosecuted or convicted, but what's your point?
That we should do it anyway?
That it has some relevance to these idiots they caught this weekend?
Are you defending these assholes?
Also from Wikipedia: "Some media reports and political critics have suggested that Ayers, Dohrn or the Weathermen were connected to the fatal 1970 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing but neither Ayers nor anyone else has been charged or convicted of this crime."
Never charged.
Michael McNeil - I'm fully aware of why Ayers was not prosecuted or convicted, but what's your point?
That we should do it anyway?
That it has some relevance to these idiots they caught this weekend?
Are you defending these assholes?
Also from Wikipedia: "Some media reports and political critics have suggested that Ayers, Dohrn or the Weathermen were connected to the fatal 1970 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing but neither Ayers nor anyone else has been charged or convicted of this crime."
Never charged.
jeremy
Btw, we did find some WMDS. we found 500 shells of chemical weapons. not nearly as much as advertised, but there is that.
we also found yellow cake in a secret facility just below the tigris river.
which is not to say bush wasn't wrong, but wrong and lying are two different words. reread 1441. 15 nations of the security counsel, including syria, china and russia, all agreed that iraq had wmds.
Bush was mistaken, but not lying. And i would rather him mistakenly believe someone has wmds, and knock down a dictator who was only trying to kill our pilots and ex-presidents, than mistakenly believe he was not, and wake up with a nasty surprise.
on bush's watch we liberated 23 million people on a mistaken belief that their ex-dictator had wmds.
on Obama's watch iran will become a nuclear power.
Which is worse?
Joe - are you drinking?
I post this quote: "In the aftermath of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces failed to uncover production facilities for, or stocks of, weapons of mass destruction."
And you follow up with this?
"Which may or may not be true...but does not bear on the EXISTENCE of WMD's in Iraq. Which ALSO true...."
Get a grip...
A.W. - Provide objective links to your claims of the WMD we found in Iraq after the 2003 invasion.
My evidence was provided by Kay and stated under oath.
"In the aftermath of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces failed to uncover production facilities for, or stocks of, weapons of mass destruction."
“Wildly costly”? The Iraq war has cost fewer casualties than almost war against a significant opponent in American history. Compare with Vietnam: 58,000 U.S. soldier deaths. Korea: 36,000. World War II: 416,000. The Civil War: three-quarters of a million soldiers died (out of a population one-tenth the present size). It's only because so many folks today have no sense of history that they think fewer than 4,000 troops killed over seven years of battle is enormous.
A.W. - "on Obama's watch iran will become a nuclear power."
So Iran recently became a nuclear threat??
Iran didn't exist during the eight years Bush was in office?
More right wing drivel.
*Oh, and when will you and others be posting congratulatory comments relating to the pact signed with the Russians last week?
Miss that?
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