After the Blair House Summit... Rep. Paul Ryan... says that "the true 10-year cost of this bill in 10 years" is $2.3 trillion. On this, Ryan is right, but misleading. In Ryan's favor, Democrats have artificially lowered the cost of the bill by pushing its start date back to 2014, even as its 10-year budget window begins in 2010. The 10-year cost of the bill is really only counting six years of operation. This was a deceptive effort to keep the bill's price tag under $1 trillion, even as the bill's price tag was really quite a bit more. Point for Ryan.Point for Ryan???!!!!!
March 2, 2010
Point for Ryan? Point for Ryan?! You mean outrageous blatant lie for the Democrats!
Ezra Klein has us crying out with derision this morning:
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It's as if the proponents of this bill think people are beyond stupid. Health care reform is urgent, urgent,urgent but according to the bill, benefits won't start kicking in until 2014.
I'm so tired of being insulted.
What's the lie?
"Ryan says that "the true 10-year cost of this bill in 10 years" is $2.3 trillion. On this, Ryan is right ..."
The lie is Barack Obama telling the American people that the 10-year cost of the bill is $950 billion when he knows that to not be true, as liberal Ezra Klein just told you.
Can't you read, Garage? Aren't you curious why the President of the United States would lie to you?
Isn't that wrong?
Garage,
A lie is any communication with the intent to cause the hearer to believe something which the communicator himself believes not to be true, even if that statement is technically true. And this is really the only grown-up definition of a lie.
"I did not have sex that woman" was a lie, even if you don't believe oral sex is sex, because the utterance by Clinton was intended by him to cause the hearer to believe that which Clinton knew wasn't true.
"The ten year cost is under $1 trillion" is a lie by the same definition.
Klein doesn't even talk about the "doc fix", which further inflates the true cost of the bill.
That clip of Ryan was just devastating, and Obama had no answer at all -- the best he could do was to change the subject, suddenly finding Medicare Advantage a fascinating topic. If ever a video needed to go viral, it's Paul Ryan's review of the real cost of the reform bill.
We're long past the point where anyone who's been paying the slightest attention has already decided what they think about all of this. Team Obama is right that the debate is over, but not in the sense he meant. Despite that, the chatterers chatter on, spinning because they don't know anything else, and awarding "points" as if the contest were still on. The only value to Klein's piece is as a portmortem, written in advance of the patient's demise.
All that matters now is not the economics or the policy pro-and-con, but the pure raw politics.
Sometimes, garage, you really crack me up.
You know Garage--if you are that willfully ignorant, you can buy my timeshare. Come on man--give it a fucking break. Obama lied. Pure and simple--Ryan was right--pure and simple. What is so hard to wrap that concept around your mind?
On this, Ryan is right, but misleading.
Misleading? What the hell is misleading? Ryan said exactly what Klein said except that he said it in more detail. Go to the video. Ryan very clearly spells out the 2010/2014 sleight of hand.
Ryan is only misleading if you think facts are misleading. Don't let any damn facts trip you up, Democrats.
Ryan, even by Obama's own admission a few weeks ago, is a budget expert. I would take his figures over the administrations or those so called non-partisan entities like the CBO.
BTW, I think Ryan should start running for President, like right now.
Obama lied. Health care died. Blame Bush!
"The bill might cost $2.3 trillion, but it either raises or saves $2.95 trillion,..."
"Raises" - pie in the sky estimates of taxes on the rich.
"Saves" - Death Panels.
A lie is any communication with the intent to cause the hearer to believe something which the communicator himself believes not to be true, even if that statement is technically true. And this is really the only grown-up definition of a lie.
I would not be surprised if, by this definition, Obama were not lying at all when he has told us that the cost is under $1 trillion on the 10 year horizon. He is not a facts man, or a policy man. He is a talking points man.
"Saves" - Death Panels.
Nonsense.
I would take his figures over the administrations or those so called non-partisan entities like the CBO.
The CBO is an eminently credible institution. But what they do is they score bills according to clearly defined rules -- that's kind of the point. When someone sets out to deliberately game the rules, in order to get a misleading result, the very transparency and rigour that underpins the CBO's work is precisely what enables that gaming. It is predictable and consistent. That doesn't mean you should look down on or disregard the CBO's work. People just need to appreciate what it does.
I still have a theory that Obama will end up taking credit for something:
1) The current bill is shoved through
2) A bunch of money is collected
3) A future Congress greatly cuts back the size and expense of the plan
4) Obama claims deficit reduction.
This may even happen in time for him to tell us he smells like Old Spice in 2012.
There's a very good possibility that Obama is just stupid. He told that story about his car insurance, and after he was done it was obvious he doesn't understand the difference between liability and comprehensive (collision) insurance. Or maybe he was just drunk.
Obama lied. Pure and simple--Ryan was right--pure and simple. What is so hard to wrap that concept around your mind?
I think the term is called bunker mentality.
Next time he tells us that the bill will only cost $1 trillion I want him to do it in a Dr. Evil voice.
Hillary of course can be Frau. I mean, it so fits.
@PatCA, I concur with you -- the only way they will save money is for the medical panels that these bills set up to recommend restricting access to treatment for various diseases and/or classes of people.
Considering how much he's emotionally invested in Obamacare, I hope for garage's sake that none of the panels recommend restrictions on access to medications for juvenile diabetics.
A hatred of the Truth is fundamental to Leftism. This is a great example of how they use their lies and misinformation to dupe their clueless supporters into thinking that they are being looked out for.
"We're only lying to you for your own good" doesn't seem like much of a defense, but in the rare instances when they are called out for their dishonesty, it's the only one the Libs can offer.
the only way they will save money is for the medical panels that these bills set up to recommend restricting access to treatment for various diseases and/or classes of people.
What about evaluating the effectiveness of medical technologies and then only using the ones that actually work? What about using the less expensive of two equally effective technologies?
Klein can merely quibble around the edges of Ryan's points -- the basic premise remains true. If he wants to lose himself in wonkery with adoring readers who already support ObamaCare then go ahead.
What Klein fails to mention is the most important part of the whole exchange between Ryan and Obama -- Obama could not counter Ryan's argument because his premise is largely true and non-wonks can identify with it.
Klein still treats this as a game where "points" are scored, yet he doesn't understand that within a game the when and how points are scored can be as important as the number of points scored. Ryan basically intercepted an Obama pass and ran it 90 yards for a touchdown.
To the political elite, this is all so much tennis.
To the rest of us, its our monthly tax bill, our jobs, and our kids' future.
There's a very good possibility that Obama is just stupid.
AllenS, noooooooo! He's the smartest, most articulate, most brilliant president we've ever had! He doesn't speak Austrian and he doesn't know any corpsemen, but besides that, he is BRILLIANT!
Fellow republicans the brazillian contractor that did my ceiling's name was Claudielle, how hot is that?
Did I mention he was hot? The real estate broker and I were fighting over him. I called the broker a bitch today (kiddingly) for coming up to see the "work".
Another downside to returning to Wisconsin is that the contractors will not be named Claudielle. They will be fat whiteys named Willie or Sparrow or Dully. Now I am depressed about leaving.
Considering how much he's emotionally invested in Obamacare, I hope for garage's sake that none of the panels recommend restrictions on access to medications for juvenile diabetics.
Ryan's recently released proposal "Roadmap for America’s Future" that privatizes Social Security and reduces Medicare to a voucher program. And Republicans have been going around telling people they are trying to protect Medicare. It does not get any more hypocritical than that. There is no question what they would like to do if they returned to power. You seriously think any laws enacted by Republicans would be better for a diabetic kid? Oh and of course Ryan will never be asked about the legislation he proposed -- what senior in their right mind would vote for that?
What about evaluating the effectiveness of medical technologies and then only using the ones that actually work? What about using the less expensive of two equally effective technologies?
That's not how it's going to happen, TriangleMan. The panels will be set up by politicians, and therefore the decisions they reach will be political. The "effectiveness of medical technologies" will be assessed based on lobbying, not hard evidence. Insurance companies already press doctors to choose the less expensive of two "equally effective" technologies, sometimes even when there are good reasons to go with the other (e.g., in my own case because of an allergy to the medication). The panels will exacerbate problems for patients who fall outside the norms, not alleviate them.
You seriously think any laws enacted by Republicans would be better for a diabetic kid?
Actually, garage, my answer is that they will be no worse, and probably will be better.
Based on what?
Considering how much he's emotionally invested in Obamacare, I hope for garage's sake that none of the panels recommend restrictions on access to medications for juvenile diabetics.
@Big Mike,
That was below a low blow -- a cheap shot, below the belt. You owe garage an apology.
@PatCA, I concur with you -- the only way they will save money is for the medical panels that these bills set up to recommend restricting access to treatment for various diseases and/or classes of people.
Folks, reducing costs is academic. You either cut coverages or you cut provider reimbursement or both. Period end of discussion. That is the only real way of doing it. Oh yes we can insist on living more healthy lifestyles but you have a better chance of Obama becoming a Republican than that happening.
Considering how much he's emotionally invested in Obamacare, I hope for garage's sake that none of the panels recommend restrictions on access to medications for juvenile diabetics.
Doubtful for kids but I would not be surprised to see severe rationing for the blue hairs. To my point above, aside from chronic illness cases, the lion's share of medical costs we incur is in the last 6 months to 1 year of our lives.
If you refer to the 2009 Trustees report on Medicare solvency, it has about 8 years left before its broke. The Trustees indicate solvency can be extended to 2075 by an increase in the Medicare tax of 134%. Now keep in mind this is a government program that covers 42million people to the tune of $500 billion annually. Now when they say this program will cost $1 trillion over a decade my bullshit meter is going off full blast.
Quayle said;
"To the political elite, this is all so much tennis. To the rest of us, its our monthly tax bill, our jobs, and our kids' future."
Well said!
I think we're missing the bigger picture folks.
We. Are. Out. Of. Money.
I really don't understand why this blindingly obvious fact isn't enough to pretty much put the kabosh on the whole subject.
My sense is that Claudielle would suck a dick too.
That's the Brazillian for ya, always willing to suck a dick. What is it about them? They really are bi and I don't say that about any other group.
Claudielle wore white Dickies painter's pants today. Isn't that hot? I would of totally did him if I wasn't married.
Folks, reducing costs is academic. You either cut coverages or you cut provider reimbursement or both. Period end of discussion. That is the only real way of doing it. Oh yes we can insist on living more healthy lifestyles but you have a better chance of Obama becoming a Republican than that happening.
This is only true if you believe that it is impossible to provide the same or better outcome at a lower cost. In other words, you must believe that health care delivery is perfectly efficient.
My dad hates Paul Ryan. My dad worked in construction all his life. Ryan comes from a rich family who owns a construction company.
Paul Ryan is so Wisconsin. Work on the hair Mary...and the accent.
Actually, garage, my answer is that they will be no worse, and probably will be better.
3/2/10 10:28 AM
When new drugs and treatments are being developed by people with a private motive, as is the case today, we get the best results in the world.
When and if the "Reform" finally takes shape, it's certain to de-incentivize all sorts of research. Not to mention that now companies hire the best and the brightest and if they don't put out some serious results, they get the boot. Wait until the Gov't gets their beak in, and every job is just considered a slot to be filled, regardless of the skills of the person filling it.
@HD
We. Are. Out. Of. Money.
I've been thinking in the past couple of days, with the Chile earthquake, for instance, that there is one silver lining to your statement.
Since WWII, it seems, the mantra has been "how can this happen in the richest country in the world" or some version on that theme. As the public continues to wake up to the looming economic disaster awaiting us, all of the fluffy, feel-good, bullshit programs are going to go down like tenpins.
Sort of like an economic enema, though I'd rather not be raising a family through such "interesting" times.
What about using the less expensive of two equally effective technologies?
Examples please? Or do you think that those nasty, stingy, insurance companies are happy to pay for the more "expensive of two equally effective technologies"? Get real - the insurance companies are A-holes by design - once the government takes over, it will have to be a mega A-hole -and eventually it will be the only A-hole in town. Controlling costs means not spending money, and the one real complaint people have with private insurance is that it won't always spend money when they want it to.
Right after Rep. Raul Ryan finished, they had Rep. Xavier Becerra respond to him-
Here the Democrats tried to claim that Rep. Paul Ryan had called into question the truthfullness of the CBO-
from The Washington Post-tanscript:
BECERRA: Mr. President, thank you very much for bringing us all together. I do want to address something that my friend, Paul Ryan, said, because I almost think that we can't have this discussion any further without addressing something Paul said.
Paul, you called into question the Congressional Budget Office. Now, we could all agree to disagree. We could all have our politics, but if there's no referee on the field, we can never agree how the game should be played.
RYAN: Let me clarify just to be clear.
BECERRA: No, no, let me -- if I could just finish. And so I think we have to decide, do we believe in the Congressional Budget Office or not? Because Paul, you and I have sat on the Budget Committee for years together and you have on any number of occasions in those years cited the Congressional Budget Office to make your point, referred to the Congressional Budget Office's projections to make your point. And today, you essentially said you can't trust the Congressional Budget Office.
Washington Post Transcript
This was unbelievably unfair to Rep. Ryan. In the CBO letter to Evan Byah,(it was Evan Byah that requested that they do an analysis) which is the analysis that is debated about over and over again during the Health Care Summit the CBO themselves cover the uncertainty of their own projections at length-in fact there is a whole section spent just on that.
From The Congressional Budget Office (pdf);
Uncertainty Surrounding These Estimates
The analysis presented here reflects the cost estimate for the legislation that CBO and JCT provided on November 18. The same substantial degree of uncertainty that surrounds CBO and JCT’s estimates of the impact that the proposal would have on insurance coverage rates and the federal budget also accompanies this analysis of the proposal’s effects on premiums. Some components of those effects
are relatively straightforward to estimate, such as the effect of imposing specific fees or the effect of a change in the amount of coverage purchased because of requirements for minimum coverage; however, estimating effects that depend heavily on how enrollees, insurers, employers, or other key actors would respond—to such things as the changes in the market rules for nongroup policies or the excise tax on high-premium policies—involve greater uncertainty.The projections of average premiums in each market under current law are also uncertain.
Link to pdf at CBO.gov
Funny how shortly after this Evan Byah gets out of Dodge...
Speaking of construction I would of paid Claudielle much more if he did my ceiling in the nude. That would of been hot to watch.
I would of pulled up a chair, grabbed some coffee, and enjoyed the view. Could you imagine plaster falling onto his uncut hog? Totally hot.
@Meade, I respectfully disagree with you. Garage has, on more than a couple occasions, trotted out his daughter's diabetes, coupled with what he has characterized as a "crappy" insurance, as justification for his avid support of ObamaCare.
Juvenile diabetes is a disease I'm acquainted with, and it is about as nasty a disease as they come. I'm absolutely not trying to minimize what garage's family is going through, nor am I trying to wish evil on his innocent daugher or even on him.
I am, however, trying to get him to consider the possibility that things will get worse for his family under ObamaCare instead of better. I don't think that's an unfair or improper position for me to take. In fact it's what I foresee, though I hope I'm wrong.
If I wasn't married I would of answered the door in just underwear and began to take a shower with the door open.
Then I would of walked out of the shower, toweled myself and put the towel strategically around my waist, enter the hallway and ask Claudielle how everything was going. Perhaps, letting my towel slip to show my pube region. I would of offered him water, look at the work while in just a towel and begin to devour him.
Paul Ryan needs a major makeover. He thinks he is hot but he is not.
Klein talks about the trust funds as if they actually had money in them.
Add Klein to the list of liars, because surely he knows better.
"point for ryan"
More like Game. Set. Match.
This is only true if you believe that it is impossible to provide the same or better outcome at a lower cost. In other words, you must believe that health care delivery is perfectly efficient.
Lets say for the sake of argument that ours is running at 75% which I think considering our standard of living is a fair estimate.
If someone can point to real dollar figures that reaching say 95% would save us I might listen. I can't recall where I saw the article but it said that if we took all of 2009 profits from the health insurance industry it would cover about 3 days worth of our medical care.
@HD
We. Are. Out. Of. Money.
Well, duh.
Think Greece.
In fact, if our name was not USA, we would already be Greece.
It really is amazing that, as the country flies off the cliff at the edge of our mountain of debt, anyone, even those dopes in DC are talking about any new spending, nevermind an enormous new entitlement program.
Um, no points for Repubs while they continue to demogogue Medicare, which spending is, in part, hurtling us toward the aforesaid cliff.
Look out beloooooooowwwwww.....
I've been thinking in the past couple of days, with the Chile earthquake, for instance, that there is one silver lining to your statement.
Well if you want a more accurate picture of what happens when a massive government spending finds itself without the ability to generate more revenue, look no further than to Greece. There is a perfect example of what happens when a significant chunk of the population finds themselves dependent on a government handout/subsidy and then reality bites them in the ass.
Thats why when nitwits like AlphaLib think our economic ills are the result of conservative policies I just weep for the future. There was nothing conservative about Bush's economic policies and if anything they mirroed what Greece did, spend, spend and spend more. And now we have Obama hell bent on following them right over the cliff.
Funny, the Dems are all righteous about banks who came up with funny mortgages with teasers, etc., but then they essentially create the mother of all teaser loans with this bill.
If it takes 10 years of taxes to pay for 6 years of the program, what happens in years 11, 12, and so on? Obviously, you're facing massive shortfalls. Even that is based on the wishful thinking that - once they implemented the taxes in 2010 - Congress wouldn't immediately start spending the money instead of saving it for the start of the program. Congress has less fiscal responsibility than a spoiled 13 year old girl given free use of her daddy's platinum card. Believing they would actually set aside those new tax revenues is wishful thinking that contradicts decades of history.
I can't recall where I saw the article but it said that if we took all of 2009 profits from the health insurance industry it would cover about 3 days worth of our medical care.
I read that, too. I believe it was in a Wall Street Journal interview with Well Point CEO Angela Braly. That point pretty much demolishes the "cost is too high due to insurance company greed" argument.
Great here comes the hate for ryan because he was effective, broke through the curtain of apathy the Obama Administration wants to draw around the public so that they will accept the Democrat's medicine.
Here is what Ryan said about Medicare-
Medicare, right now, has a $38 trillion unfunded liability. That's $38 trillion in empty promises to my parents' generation, our generation, our kids' generation. Medicaid's growing at 21 percent each year. It's suffocating states' budgets.
How many state budgets are on the brink right now?
California, Nevada,Illinois, Michigan-a lot of blue states. How many of them will be considered too big to fail? Think the Democrats might have to bail out their Blue State Brothers with funds from the Federal budget?
It's highly likely,and how much more is that going to add to the deficit?
Here's what else Rep. Ryan says about Medicare;
...the bill has 10 years of tax increases, about half a trillion dollars, with 10 years of Medicare cuts, about half a trillion dollars, to pay for six years of spending.
Now, what's the true 10-year cost of this bill in 10 years? That's $2.3 trillion.
It does couple of other things. It takes $52 billion in higher Social Security tax revenues and counts them as offsets. But that's really reserved for Social Security. So either we're double-counting them or we don't intend on paying those Social Security benefits.
It takes $72 billion and claims money from the CLASS Act. That's the long-term care insurance program. It takes the money from premiums that are designed for that benefit and instead counts them as offsets.
The Senate Budget Committee chairman said that this is a Ponzi scheme that would make Bernie Madoff proud.
Now, when you take a look at the Medicare cuts, what this bill essentially does -- it treats Medicare like a piggy bank. It raids a half a trillion dollars out of Medicare, not to shore up Medicare solvency, but to spend on this new government program.
Now, when you take a look at what this does, is, according to the chief actuary of Medicare, he's saying as much as 20 percent of Medicare's providers will either go out of business or will have to stop seeing Medicare beneficiaries. Millions of seniors who are on -- who have chosen Medicare Advantage will lose the coverage that they now enjoy.
You can't say that you're using this money to either extend Medicare solvency and also offset the cost of this new program. That's double counting.
[btw-good luck finding rep. Ryan's testimony at Huffington Post-it looks like it was "heavily edited".]
Rep. Ryan Health Care Summit Transcript at Washington Post
@Big Mike,
In fairness, when I first read your comment, I thought it was a cheap shot too. In fact I had written this long thing explaining that while Garage may be wrong about the effects of health care on his daughter, I would never challenge a man's interest in protecting his family.
But you seem to have self-corrected in your follow up (and I'll leave it to Garage to decide if the going a little over the line originally still requires some apology).
But it does bring up for me an interesting question. We can talk about the deleterious effects of Obamacare on Health Care on the Macrolevel, and mock the Democrats for argument by anecdote but...
My mother passed away last summer due to a medical error. While I support malpractice tort reform as an integral part of any meaningful health care cost containment; if I thought the ability to sue the surgeon responsible into oblivion would have saved my mom--the system going bankrupt would be a small price to pay.
If I know the macro policy implications of my microlevel preferences, and would still burn it all down to get what I want, I don't see how anti-socialized health care people can kill this vampire for good without developing a language for addressing the microlevel insecurities. Otherwise while we may yet kill Obamacare...it'll be back with the next Democratic President...and again...and again. And it only needs to win once.
"...but then they essentially create the mother of all teaser loans with this bill..."
Good point. And when the bill does come due, it's our very lives that we won't be able to afford, not just our houses.
People who crave Government control of their health care freak me out. Have they never been to a Gov't office? Never worked with a Gov't agency? Do they not realize that "paying" for the most important aspect of our lives (our physical health) with imaginary money is a horrible idea?
Paul Ryan thinks he is hot-physically. And by Wisconsin standards I guess he is because he isn't a fatty. But he isn't hot at all, I am sorry.
He has awful hair, his clothes suck and he has that horrible nasal Wisconsin accent.
I am just being real.
The tragedy of the media that has been taken over by the state since the fall of communism in Russia is that total falsehoods are the rule in politics now. A truth teller will be slandered as an angry person that does not get along well with others. In the USSR communists called truth tellers hooligans and mentally ill people. That is what the state media calls US citizens who are speaking the truth today.
One of most stunning things I've heard was yesterday...on an unrelated story about Senator Bunning holding up unemployment benefits because they are unfunded. Everyone knows that not a single person will miss their benefits, but they're still using political theater to enflame emotion along those lines.
The stunning aspect, which I suspect is right on the money (pardon the pun) but I've not personally checked yet, is that if this unemployment extension is unfunded, the extended costs are near $100 which removes a huge chunk of the supposed savings.
Anyone else catch that yesterday? I heard it while dealing with three kids under 5 while driving.
titus-
Obviously he has you hot and bothered.
I watched much of the Blair blather fest and when it came to talking about how they were going to pay for it (other than the gimmick Paul Ryan exposed) they had nothing.
Democrats know they cant say they are going to raise taxes in this economy.. but they also know once the entitlement kicks in there will be no other alternative.
The era of big government is back big time.
Paul Ryan is a boring whitey. Give me an exotic brownie any day. There are too many boring whitey's around.
garage said: and reduces Medicare to a voucher program. And Republicans have been going around telling people they are trying to protect Medicare. It does not get any more hypocritical than that.
Garage - Medicare is bankrupt. It is the opinion of many (myself included) that the only thing that's going to save it, without turning to rationing, is to fundamentally change the incentive structure for everybody involved on both sides of the equation. Disagree if you do, but flinging the "hypocrisy" charge is bullshit.
Scott M-
S100 million or billion?
-hell maybe no one notices anymore unless you say "trillion".
Sorry haven't heard that.
titus-
Wisconsin is going to be hell for you.
Went to a bar in Minnesota once-I was the only brunette-WTH!?
Billion. And that was supposed to read, "huge chunk of the savings in Obamacare".
In other words, business as usual in Congress on one issue will completely wipe out spurious, possibly imaginary, gains in another. You could refer to chaos theory, but just saying "Congressional action" should sum it up nicely.
I'll do some poking when I get a chance and see if I can't source that story.
Is Herb Kohl a fag?
@Triangle Man: What about evaluating the effectiveness of medical technologies and then only using the ones that actually work? What about using the less expensive of two equally effective technologies?
With respect, this is niave. Medicine is an incredibly complicated field. Good people have been trying to figure out what works for decades. We need to continue to do this work. "Elevating" these question to the level of politics will have very damaging consequences to real peoples health care.
I would do Russ Feingold.
He told that story about his car insurance, and after he was done it was obvious he doesn't understand the difference between liability and comprehensive (collision) insurance.
I missed that part. What did he say?
This is only true if you believe that it is impossible to provide the same or better outcome at a lower cost
I think, as with most things in life, you get what you pay for.
Jim Bunning was one of my first baseball heroes. He pitched his NL perfect game on my birthday 6/21/64.
I would not do Tommy Thompson, although I would go to his brother's supper club in Tomah.
After a certain age you should not refer to yourself as "Tommy".
@Big Mike,
I beg your pardon. You made a good point, well said.
It's garage who owes his own child an apology - for compromising her privacy on the internet in order to score points in online debates.
I would of done Bob Lafollote.
Would not of done Mccarthy though heard he was a fag.
I would not mind seeing Tammy Baldwin's pussy.
Lee Dreyfous no, Tony Earle no.
Doyle, gross.
Garage scores a point when he says: " . . . Republicans have been going around telling people they are trying to protect Medicare. It does not get any more hypocritical than that."
Fact is Obama's plan does not add to the deficit because it includes serious savings in Medicare. Another fact, mentioned by Ryan, but not something the GOP wants to trumpet, is that a BIPARTISAN majority took the "Doc Fix" out of health care reform.
In other words, ages ago Congress established a method of paying physicians that would save Medicare a lot of money. Every Congress since then has specifically voted to ignore those savings and to continue paying more for physicans' services under Medicare. That is known as the "Doc Fix." This year, those spineless BIPARTISAN assholes did the "Doc Fix" again and specifically excluded it from health care reform. Under the rules, CBO had no choice but to ignore the "Doc Fix" when evaluating the cost of health care reform.
Lucy no
Obey no.
titus
Ya somehow even though Jindal is a numbers guy and all-he don't float your boat so to speak does he?
Sensenbrenner God no. He is so hideous.
I would of done Paul Soglin on a bad night.
titus-
One of these days you'll get past looks.
It ain't all that.
People people, we have to spend money in order to save money. The Obama/Pelosi lie must be tolerated.
It is OK for democrats to lie.
Feel the lie. Embrace the lie. Learn to love the lie.
The democrats know what is best.
Don't question the non-partisan CBO and the digestion of the lie that was placed in front of it.
@madawaskan: Thanks for the extended post of Paul Ryan's remarks. Ezra Klein says it doesn't matter that the Medicare SGR fix is separated from the 'reform' bill; indeed it's 'dishonest' to say they should be counted together, because Paul Ryan voted for the Iraq war.
If this is the case, why not assume $3 trillion in Medicare savings in the 'reform' bill? We can then spend the $3 trillion in a separate bill, but it won't really count because we would have to do it anyway, and besides Paul Ryan voted for the Iraq war.
I'm no accountant but this sounds fishy. Wait, I am an accountant; never mind. It's not fishy because Paul Ryan voted for both the Iraq war and the Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit? So, as long as we spent enormous sums of money we didn't have on expensive, unfunded endeavors in the past, we should continue to do so in the future. Only more so.
I did a guy in my Chevy Monza one night in Madison when I was in high school.
He worked for some republican at the state house in Madison.
He became a total stalker. He was all about being "discreet" because he wasn't out but he was a fucking freak.
I wonder where he is?
Cokaygne: Don't you find it illuminating that even the Mayo Clinic can't break even on Medicare reimbursements at the level they are now, not to mention what they'll be when Obama's "serious Medicare savings" kick in?
In the past, whenever republicans opposed new government programs the charge of callousness and uncaring would resonate with the public.
But now, facing a sea of red ink, the political fortunes have realigned to such a degree that one senator is boldly filibustering a spending bill (one that could affect my unemployment benefits btw) and democrats have been unable to hardly make a dent with the uncaring attack of the past.
hawkeyedjb-
LOL! Oh man now I have to go read Klein's logic...great.
I was hoping to get away with not doing that, but now I gotta look-sounds like a train wreck...
Ann said...
After the Blair House Summit... Rep. Paul Ryan... says that "the true 10-year cost of this bill in 10 years" is $2.3 trillion. On this, Ryan is right, but misleading... This was a deceptive effort to keep the bill's price tag under $1 trillion, even as the bill's price tag was really quite a bit more.
Right, but misleading, as in fake, but accurate?
And you still take up the gage for this nonsense, garage? Put down the Haldol, the Xanax, and the Zoloft and take a long walk in the woods.
It's garage who owes his own child an apology - for compromising her privacy on the internet in order to score points in online debates.
Meade - lefties don't have any dignity or honor.
It's garage who owes his own child an apology - for compromising her privacy on the internet in order to score points in online debates.
Make up your mind! And sorry to use a real world example, instead of the hypothetical "what we think may happen and what we think it really costs" that runs contrary to what's in the actual bills and the CBO score.
Titus said...
"My dad hates Paul Ryan. My dad worked in construction all his life".
I remember you telling everyone that your parents were dairy farmers. Which is it? I'll bet your not even a fag.
Big Mike. You don't owe anyone an apology.
Well reading the lefty papers, it's 100% fact that Bunning's filibuster of the unemployment benefits is going to sink the GOP forever.
It's all over. Thanks to one crazy man(Bunning) the country is going Commie.
Garage, I didn't know about your daughter. I hope she can get the treatments that she needs to live a happy and productive life. I will remember her in my prayers during this Lenten Season.
All the best.
Where's Ritmo?
I don't know and I don't care AllenS.
As someone who hated the way liberals dragged Palin's kids through the mud I don't like it when it happens to anyone's kids regardless of how their names were introduced into the discussion.
Children should be off limits at all times. No matter what.
Anything less than following that rule absolutely marks you as a worthless scumbag in my book.
Sometime I highly recommend to everyone who posts on the internets. You know who you are!
Trooper York - by your standard garage is a scumbag for bringing his kid into the political discussion. But I don't sense your outrage over that asshole.
Fuck off, Ritmo. Garage brought his kid into the conversation. Until he did that, nobody knew about the kid.
Look Palin brought Trig into the political discussion recently because of a highly personal and emotional reaction to something someone said. I think garage did as well. I want to give him a break just as I would to Palin when she reacts to something that she feels directly will affect her child.
I don’t agree with garage about much of anything but I think children should be off limits. He might have made an error in talking about his personal situation. But that is no excuse for using it to batter him with. He says enough stupid stuff without using that. You have a target rich environment. I just think you shouldn’t use the kid no matter what.
But that’s just what I think. That doesn’t matter. Knock yourself out if it makes you feel better.
And sorry to use a real world example, instead of the hypothetical "what we think may happen and what we think it really costs" that runs contrary to what's in the actual bills and the CBO score.
To paraphrase Vader, I find your faith on government cost estimates disturbing.
That's great that our hypotheticals run contrary to what the geniuses in DC come up with. I on the other hand recall the $1 billion Cash for Clunkers program that start in July, was supposed to last until November and needed another $2 billion by July 30.
So you'll have for forgive me for being skeptical.
I'll never, ever talk about children online for the rest of my life if every politician can go one single day without blubbering about the little rugrats. Hell, I'll never even mention puppies or kittens lest there be any confusion. Just stop the GD pols from cynically hiding behind our very own kids when they want to stuff their own sleazy pockets!
rant over.
To paraphrase Vader...
That and the Dune references have convinced me that you're as much a closet geek as I am, Hoosier. But...is your ep33n big enough to have secured a midnight release of BF:BC2 (pc version, of course)last night?
Only then will the grasshopper become the master.
Trooper:
Joe Biden is almost as smart as a fifth-grader! Does that make him off limits?
wv = taigati= Tokyo tailgaters
Do you ever see garage on tv? Do you ever see garage in the national spotlight? Has garage been nominated to some important political post? Do you think that garage mahal is his real name?
I see plans within plans...
Troop I don’t think Big Mike was picking on garage’s kid. As Mike said, garage has brought it up before in the course of arguing this topic and Mike’s question is a legitimate one when one side of the debate is all for letting Uncle Sam take care of our health care. Garage seems to have an unquestioning faith that Government Issue Anything is the way to go and maybe for him it will be just wonderful. For someone else it won’t and maybe the whole thing will be a giant cock up from jump street. I don’t know but I do know that this country is looking down the abyss of economic bankruptcy and we are showing no signs whatsoever of even trying to step back from the edge.
That and the Dune references have convinced me that you're as much a closet geek as I am, Hoosier. But...is your ep33n big enough to have secured a midnight release of BF:BC2 (pc version, of course)last night?
I came out of the closet years ago. I will proudly wear my GenCon shirt anywhere.
I haven't played Battlefield in years. Last time was BF:2142 and I shelved it to give all my time to WoW. I'll usually fire up Total War or COD if the servers are down though ;-)
And I'm sick and tired of this oh, I'm offended/that's offensive, what you just said bullshit. If you want to play internet story-telling, you've got to hold up your end of the story.
I just think that if you didn't like what they did to Palin you should speak out when they do it to someone you don't agree with.
Especially when it is someone you don't agree with.
That makes you different from the Democrats.
Otherwise you lose your standing to object when Loafing Oaf and his ilk go off the way they do.
But attacking someone's kids seems to way to do business here at this joint so there you go.
I am sorry I even stopped by.
Life's too short.
Nobody is investigating garage and his children.
It bears repeating that the CBO is not giving a dispassionate, objective assessment of a bill. Their assessments are based on legalistic interpretations of a bill with a huge amount of limitations built in. Politicians know this and write bills to game the system. What's remarkable is that despite this, the CBO still comes up with such a negative assessment of the health care bill. More importantly, it means that the bill is FAR worse than what the CBO says (which, in candid moments, the CBO actually concedes.)
AllenS wrote re Titus:
I remember you telling everyone that your parents were dairy farmers. Which is it? I'll bet your not even a fag.
A non-fag posing as a fag! How gay is that?
Like I said, if you're going to story-tell, keep your story straight. There are plenty of decent gay people out there that just don't need someone acting like a raging fag in love with his shit. And I do mean shit.
One thing I want to raise about the whole Democrat attitude about the bill was one of the sob stories that Nancy Pelosi was regaling the summit. I’ll paraphrase but she was referring to a letter she received from some guy in Michigan who lost his health care, may have to sell his home and has burdening health care bills. Here is the part that pissed me off. She said he didn’t want to burden his kids with this because they have their own families to raise. Wait. Full frickin stop. He doesn’t want to burden his kids but let’s burden me and the rest of the country that has to pay taxes.
Anyone else think it’s a wee bit shoddy to ask the rest of the class to shoulder a burden except for your damn family? Or is it because this guy, like an ever growing segment of the country just believes that the government craps out money like they were Tiffany cufflinks? Maybe one of the reasons we’re in this economic death spiral is because those depending on the government have absolutely no idea where the government gets its money. This guy’s letter is a perfect example of being utterly divorced from reality.
One thing I want to raise about the whole Democrat attitude about the bill was one of the sob stories that Nancy Pelosi was regaling the summit. I’ll paraphrase but she was referring to a letter she received from some guy in Michigan who lost his health care, may have to sell his home and has burdening health care bills. Here is the part that pissed me off. She said he didn’t want to burden his kids with this because they have their own families to raise. Wait.
Full frickin stop. He doesn’t want to burden his kids but let’s burden me and the rest of the country that has to pay taxes.
Anyone else think it’s a wee bit shoddy to ask the rest of the class to shoulder a burden except for your damn family? Or is it because this guy, like an ever growing segment of the country just believes that the government craps out money like they were Tiffany cufflinks? Maybe one of the reasons we’re in this economic death spiral is because those depending on the government have absolutely no idea where the government gets its money. This guy’s letter is a perfect example of being utterly divorced from reality.
Allens, FYI, my parents came from dairy farms, both. My father though worked in construction. My father also owns a dairy farm, the farm my mother grew up on.
toodles.
Obama's point was that the bill is like: "0% interest for a year" or "no payments for 90 days". Till then it's freeeeeeeeee! Of course even those deals let you use the product before you pay for it. This bill is a worse deal than the average infomercial. I'd prefer the pocket fisherman. You at least can send it back for a refund, and it teaches a man to fish.
Joe-
Ya, looks like Ezra Klein got the little talking point memo from Democrat Central-
"Rep. Ryan doesn't "trust" the CBO."
Complete obfuscation.
In the CBO's own report the word "uncertain" or some variation of it comes up-at least nine times.
That was the only response that they had to Rep. Ryan at the time and it's still their only response.
It's weak.
Although it is not a dairy farm anymore. No more cows. But another farmer does raise corn on it's property and pays my dad.
My parents last names both have street named after their people in Lodi Wisconsin. Lee and Reppen, look it up.
Triangle Man,
Name an expensive "medical technology" now being used rather than a cheaper and equally effective one.
My fathers brother who is like 80 still runs the dairy farm of his dad, my grandpa, in Lodi. There are cows on that farm. There was also a swing, made of a tire on an oak tree there when I was young.
How romantic.
FYI-I don't jerk off anymore.
Leo Getz: Whatever you guys want! Want room service? Its free. See this bathrobe? Free!
Sgt. Murtagh: It's not free Leo, its paid for by the taxpayers.
Leo Getz: Oh it's the same thing!
Lethal Weapon 2, 1989
Trooper
Thanks for the kind words, it matters.
And I didn't take offense to anything written about my daughter from any of the commenters. We're all big boys and girls here.
Here's Ezra simply putting a new flourish on the same attack Democrat Rep. Becerra made on Rep. Ryan at the Summit-
Ezra:I imagine the congressman would respond to my previous point by saying that he doesn't buy the CBO's estimates..
Too bad they can't "imagine" a better attack on Rep. Ryan....
[Nice to see that reporters pimp themselves out. How much does Ezra charge?]
Am I the most prolithic commenter here? I think so.
What ever happen to "Obama's gonna fill my gas tank and pay my phone bill". Shouldn't he get that done first. I saw people who voted for him for that very reason and now he's bait and switchin' us. Slippery little devil he is.
advice to Ezra: If you don't want to look like a whore try not to wear the same fishnets.
Hoosier, I think your 1:27 post, though hard to argue with, is a bit harsh. After listening to this debate for over a year I'm optimistic that we could design an affordable system that provides a safety net for the fellow in Pelosi's letter (if he really exists). I think you do too, actually, given your comments about real insurance versus this disaster currently on the table.
Jeez, Tooper, now I have to apologize to you? I thought I explained myself in my 10:47 post.
I was never proud of the dairy farm background. Never negative either, just indifferent. Just recently have I appreciated it.
garage,
WHat exactly is it you want? Free, Rolls Royce insurance? The go become a member of congress or the senate.
If you have crappy insurance, then earn more money and buy better insurance or supplemental insurance- like the rest of us.
If there is anyone you should be pissed at it is congress and the senate. Do you think they will give up their insurance for the dog shit they will be forcing us into?
If they were serious they would be forced to get the same exact insurance plans they are forcing on us. There would be no exemption. Remember who the masters are- us.
Right now, your precious government servants have the Rolls Royce. You are lucky to have a Yugo on blocks.
Titus, pictures or it didn't happen.
The spell check is not on today. Titus said that he is our most "prolithic commenter"; and that could explain why he favors stones, like rolling stones. Nevermind.
After listening to this debate for over a year I'm optimistic that we could design an affordable system that provides a safety net for the fellow in Pelosi's letter (if he really exists). I think you do too, actually, given your comments about real insurance versus this disaster currently on the table.
Hell I think we could too but the problem is, and Obama I believed said for all intents and purposes, catastrophic care isn’t real health insurance. That’s the problem, simply covering the uninsured for the bank breaking illnesses isn’t even on the table and he won’t even consider it. Hell, they’re arguing over whether abortion will be covered. If that isn’t the daylight shining on the cockroach I don’t know what is. When abortion is considered a health care issue that has to be debated in this bill then we’ve gone so far past the goal line that IMO, bringing the conversation back to reality is futile. There just isn’t any common ground to even discuss it anymore.
Mike, even as a conservative, I have never ever had a problem with social safety nets. I think they are an absolute necessity that any first world society should have; making sure the vulnerable and down on their luck have some viable options. That’s what Social Security was supposed to be. It was supposed to be a safety net for widows and orphans. Then it was supposed to be a supplement for retirement and now it’s treated as the only thing that keeps the Blue Hairs from turning to cannibalism. Medicare, same thing.
And yes my comments may seem harsh but in essence, that guy represented what is wrong with our system as a whole. He won’t burden his kids but burdening the rest of the country? No problem. Then again, maybe he’s one of millions who actually don’t comprehend that the government doesn’t make money, they take it from you and me and a dog named Boo and then hand it back out to whom they deem worthy. And then we’re back to Big Mike’s question as to who is worthy so we've come full circle.
If you have crappy insurance, then earn more money and buy better insurance or supplemental insurance- like the rest of us.
In garage's defense, his insurance is probably crappy because of his daughter's condition and because of set limits nearly all insurance imposes on medication and supplies and the fact that his premiums are high to reflect the cost of care.
This goes to my point, garage does not have health insurance but a pre-funded health plan that is taking into account claims that it knows it has to begin providing from day one. No other insurance operates from the standpoint of having to underwrite a risk that has already occurred. Therefore his premiums are already taking into account a risk that already exists.
What about evaluating the effectiveness of medical technologies and then only using the ones that actually work? What about using the less expensive of two equally effective technologies?
Two things there. First, it is sometimes very hard to identify what is the more effective treatment. Is the metric that it is cheaper? Or, is it that it saves more lives? And even if it appears cheaper, it may not be. As far as I can tell, there are a lot of situations where this is not nearly as cut and dried as many would like.
The another thing is that what is more effective today may not be tomorrow. For example, if we are talking price, we recently had some sleeping medicine go generic, cutting the cost from $300 a month to maybe $15 per month. But we probably never would have gotten to that point if the medicine had not been $300 a month until it went off patent.
Also, who determines that one course of treatment is more effective than another? A government panel, etc.? If so, which is what we would apparently get with ObamaCare, the panel, etc. will very quickly be coopted by suppliers. We are already seeing that with Medicare. This will, inevitably, become politicized, and the best connected and best lobbied treatments are going to be the ones approved, more often than not.
@Hoosier: I agree completely.
Ryan comes from a rich family who owns a construction company.
In that case, I hate Ryan too. There should be a special place in hell for someone like that.
Fact is Obama's plan does not add to the deficit because it includes serious savings in Medicare. Another fact, mentioned by Ryan, but not something the GOP wants to trumpet, is that a BIPARTISAN majority took the "Doc Fix" out of health care reform.
In other words, ages ago Congress established a method of paying physicians that would save Medicare a lot of money. Every Congress since then has specifically voted to ignore those savings and to continue paying more for physicans' services under Medicare. That is known as the "Doc Fix." This year, those spineless BIPARTISAN assholes did the "Doc Fix" again and specifically excluded it from health care reform. Under the rules, CBO had no choice but to ignore the "Doc Fix" when evaluating the cost of health care reform.
In other words, you are in favor of significantly more cross-subsidization by those with private insurance for those on government insurance.
What we are talking about are reimbursement rates that are already, in many cases, below the cost of providing the services, which is why doctors, even after the cuts are rolled back, are refusing to take on new Medicare, and esp. Medicaid, patients.
No, it is not free money, or, really savings. Rather, what we are talking about is massive cross-subsidization.
Following up on Bruce's related point, I am still interested in Cokaygne's take on the Mayo Clinic's recent announcement that they will stop taking Medicare patients because they can't make a financial go of it.
"outrageous blatant lie for the democrats"
And yet you vote for them.
Titus wrote:
Am I the most prolithic commenter here? I think so.
Try "profligate" and you may be on to something.
What Trooper said above.
Classy
The American College of Surgeons has recommended this week that all surgeons exit Medicare after the 21% rate cut took effect. There are over 1100 counties in the country now that do not have one general surgeon, mostly because the poorer and more rural counties have the majority of people on government not private health care and they pay too little. If you get a ruptured appendix in some places, you're gonna be dead before you can get to help.
What I never have understood is how anyone could attempt to craft ahealth care reform without placing the providers at the center.
How can Ezra Klein have a column in the Washington Post? Any accountant will tell you that it is WORSE than Ryan said. It begins with the Ponzi scheme of taxes, which cannot in the long run be viable. It is why they are illegal in private practice.
Second, it is impossible to explain away the double counting. Impossible. You are robbing a bankrupt Peter to pay Paul. There is no way for Ezra to explain that. His explanation would receive a failing grade in any mathematics or accounting course.
Lastly, that Democrats seem unmoved by the looming financial debt crisis on the imminent horizon is so surreal that it begs all commons sense. There is only one way to bring costs down; let the market do it. It is what it does best. The government has never 'bended the cost curve.' Ever.
Several comments from a physician who works for the Dark side. First the worst of Klein's rebuttal:
The short version: In 1997, Republicans passed the Medicare Sustainable Growth Rate into law. The provision created a simple equation meant to hold down Medicare costs and cut doctor payments when they rose. But the provision was passed when Medicare's costs were uncommonly low. Suddenly, SGR was forcing huge cuts rather than the modest adjustments that had been intended. So legislators began voting to delay implementation rather than cut doctor payments.
The first delay was passed in 2003, under Republicans. Then again in 2005, also under Republicans. Then in 2006, under Republicans. Then in 2007 and 2008, under Democrats. For those keeping count at home, this is a policy in a Republican bill that Republicans delayed three times and Democrats delayed twice. What's needed is to reform the system so we stop delaying it. And we will need to do that -- and this is important -- whether or not health-care reform passes.
I struggle to describe the disinenuity of this all. Its as if a guy with a 3 pack a day, a fifth a day habit badly in debt includes as part of his plan to get out of debt, all the money he'll save when he quits smoking and drinking next week. C'mon we've tried every year to apply the SGR and every year the congress fails. And in fact they admit they will fail again.
re Scott:
We. Are. Out. Of. Money.
We should all wake up every morning and repeat that. And then in ten years when Medicare goes under (or if you have more patience in 40 years when healthcare consumes 40% of our GDP) we can look our kids in the eye and say "Yeah I knew it was coming but I couldn't do anything about it"
That point pretty much demolishes the "cost is too high due to insurance company greed" argument.
Include all medical administration including all insurance profits and you've eliminated 7% of the total costs. That would put still put us about 35% higher health spending per capita than the next highest country.
There is no way around the fact that hospitals spend over 30% of our healthcare dollars and physicians another 25%. If we need to save big money, we need to look at big targets. Yes, that is VERY uncomfortable.
As we used to say at 3 am when getting killed by the ER and working up your sixth admission:
Suck it up!
Rep. Ryan responds to Ezra Kein.
Link
7 years of being forced to sort of defend Bush over the war on terror and years of growing to appreciate Rush weren't enough to turn Althouse away from her essential liberal outlook and make her a conservative.
It seems to have taken Democratic control of Washington to do it.
And I didn't take offense to anything written about my daughter from any of the commenters. We're all big boys and girls here.
This is the honorable comment of the day.
And no one was picking on garage's kid in the first place.
That clip of Ryan was just devastating, and Obama had no answer at all -- the best he could do was to change the subject, suddenly finding Medicare Advantage a fascinating topic.themes for business meetings- It is easier to grow your team when you keep more sales reps. These training tips on team retention have good { Insert Keywords #1 below } and will help your {theme for meetings} sales team to grow.
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