December 16, 2009
"There's nothing to think about: he's never going to change."
That, supposedly, is what Elin thinks of Tiger Woods. Is the need for multiple partners a sexual orientation?
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127 comments:
If it is, I don't have it. Thinking about it grosses me out a little bit. I would be polyphobic.
I am not among those who care very much about this story, but I am staggered by the number of his dalliances, while being married and having kids.
Even if he didn't change, isn't there a line beyond which a relationship is over?
How many women was it?
Nobody seems to be suspecting that she's no great deal either.
Yet there is a living stereotype of the nagging wife.
No tentative connection is made in the media, I assume because the soap opera audience would tune away.
(Just a little bit of TMI real quick, I'm not saying that I don't find random people sexually attractive, I do, but the thought of having actual sex with them, the reality of that, risks, consequences, and well, the banality of that, gives me a shudder.)
I know one thing. If I had been screwing around when my wife and I were thirty, there would have been a Bobbiting several years before Lorraine did the deed.
I don't blame Elin one bit.
Sounds like you're making excuses for bad behavior. Why?
He pledged fidelity to his wife. He broke the pledge.
End of story.
An orientation?
Is it possible to be a monogamous bi-sexual?
Bleh.
If promiscuity *is* an orientation the person who has it has an obligation not to get married at all that is similar to the obligation a gay person has not to lie to and marry someone of the opposite sex. And if they *do* then no free passes for skanking around on the side... the "orientation" of the cheating is irrelevant.
I'll allow only the *smallest* accommodation for wishful thinking that ones orientation is not what it is... but does anyone think that Woods didn't cheat while they were dating for three years?
The whole idea is pretty stupid, though. As if an adult can't chose to, or chose not to, have sex with anything and everything that moves.
Chuck B... I get that TMI thing. :-)
One thing that I really *hate* about current pulp romances is that they frequently include the fantasy (hey, they *are* fantasy at heart, but there is fun fantasy and unhealthy fantasy) that being in "love" means all attraction to other people ends forever.
This is so untrue, no matter how often people buy into it and ruin their lives.
And I agree. I have an aversion to cheating on my husband. That doesn't mean that I don't find other people sexually attractive but the thought of having actual sex with them, the reality of that, risks, consequences, and well, the banality of that, gives me a shudder.
I try to imagine how I'd behave if I were rich beyond the dreams of avarice, young, virile, good looking and hugely famous, but the cognitive dissonance is too great. I guess that's why I can't get interested in this story. It's too much like wondering whether Mickey is loyal to Minnie.
While the missing band "meant nothing," insists a source, a high-profile Florida divorce attorney tells PEOPLE that Nordegren has met with lawyers to renegotiate the Woods' prenuptial agreement.
so if Elin is leaving (and I'm still available with a shoulder to cry on), how can publizing that you are divorcing help in renegotiating a prenup?
Is that a sound strategy? I would think that if you wanted a new and larger prenup, you'd go the route to talk about making up, etc.
Is the need for multiple partners a sexual orientation?
Yes, it's called being male. However, that orientation isn't acted on by many if not most people past a certain age because of ethics, concerns about what others would think, concerns about disease or other ick factors, and in the case of some unfortunate people, just plain bad luck.
Is the need for multiple partners a sexual orientation?
Finally.. although a 'novel defense' a defense nevertheless.
Well it may be something one can want and believe they can do, but I'm not going to accept it as a need. I'm sure she's not perfect (damn nice looking however) but she in no way could have deserved that nor should she feel any regrets for leaving.
No Hillaryesque reasons to stand by her man.
If promiscuity *is* an orientation the person who has it has an obligation not to get married at all that is similar to the obligation a gay person has not to lie to and marry someone of the opposite sex.
Synova makes sense.
yeah, 12 or so is pretty bad. Not sure how you regain trust after that.
Maybe Elin said he'll never change because that's what he has told her.
Maybe he's come out as a man whore.
Then a great new endorsement possibility arises:
Trojan condoms
Tiger smiles at the camera.
"Don't hate tha playah
Hate tha game!"
And Astroglide.
Or KY Jelly.
A series of those his n hers commercials featuring Tiger and a different bimbo in each commercial.
kentuckyliz;
LOL!
Sounds like you're making excuses for bad behavior. Why?
He pledged fidelity to his wife. He broke the pledge.
End of story.
What if she's a nagging shrew?
That's more likely than Tiger being a sex addict.
Yet it's not speculated on.
The innocent wife story sells better.
"Sounds like you're making excuses for bad behavior. Why?"
No, I'm not. I'm characterizing Elin's opinion. Why does she think he can't change? It's as though she's discovered what he is -- similar to finding out he's homosexual -- and she is facing up to that reality.
Even if he could doggedly keep his pledge, is that what she should want? What if you found out your spouse was only attracted to the opposite sex? You'd be angry about the deception, but would you want to stay bound in matrimony to that person. You can't satisfy him/her sexually, but you could invoke the moral obligation. Personally, I would not want that.
Now, you could stay married and have an arrangement if it was mutually agreeable, but I don't think in the case of Tiger and Elin that it really works for Elin or that Tiger would accept the situation.
The innocent wife story sells better.
The chances that sweet Elin has cheated on that cheater Tiger are ZERO.
Elin has been busy raising the cubs.
How much humiliation is Elin obligated to endure? She will now be known as Tiger Woods's wife when he was banging all those whores, and who didn't leave him.
Pretty difficult to walk around in public with your head held high about that.
A woman with self esteem would leave him. She will, right after Christmas.
somefeller said...
Is the need for multiple partners a sexual orientation?
Yes, it's called being male. However, that orientation isn't acted on by many if not most people past a certain age because of ethics, concerns about what others would think, concerns about disease or other ick factors, and in the case of some unfortunate people, just plain bad luck.
Trust the Lefties to try to find an excuse for just plain bad (not to mention stupid) behavior. People who pursue this sort of thing, if they're not world class athletes or movie stars, usually end up on the government rolls, which is why the Lefties encourage it.
That old Puritan social approbation made people think twice and usually say, "No, I don't think so", before they stepped over the line. Why do you think the Left spent the last 40 years doing everything it could to discredit it?
In any case, there are probably more males than is fashionable to count who might actually love their wives/girlfriends/significant others enough that they wouldn't want to rip out their hearts and humiliate them in front of everyone who knows them just for a quickie.
And that leaves out the issue of children.
rhhardin said...
Nobody seems to be suspecting that she's no great deal either.
Always that possibility, but nobody had any sympathy for Chuck and Camilla.
Related incident?
Some athletes/entertainers are complaining that their partners have shortened their leash in the wake of the Tiger incident and sneaking peeks at their texts, emails and phone records.
Is getting thrown out the back of a moving truck one of the consequences of getting caught?
My pet theory, Elin was a freak before marriage/kids, and became (or Tiger requested because he didn't want the mother of his chlidren being a freak) completely unfreaky after childbearing so Tiger upped his extramarital freak seeking.
Tiger is reported as liking to watch women with other women, and he married a woman with a twin sister...
(first, ewwwwww, second, hmmmmmmm)
Pretty difficult to walk around in public with your head held high about that.
Nothing that a court settlement could not ease.
wv - purgea - wrong tread
"What if you found out your spouse was only attracted to the opposite sex? You'd be angry about the deception, but would you want to stay bound in matrimony to that person."
I don't suppose a person would want to stay married to them in that case, but in addition to being angry I'd probably want an explanation of the sex and children we'd had over the years and why "discovering" the homosexuality means it's okay to break marriage vows... we wouldn't accept that if a guy "discovered" that he was only attracted to co-eds named Jennifer, after all.
Trust the Lefties to try to find an excuse for just plain bad (not to mention stupid) behavior. People who pursue this sort of thing, if they're not world class athletes or movie stars, usually end up on the government rolls, which is why the Lefties encourage it.
I guess someone hasn't heard of sociobiology, which is a field that isn't generally considered left-liberal in its views and adherents. But that's no surprise. Also, I didn't make an excuse for this bad behavior, as shown by the fact that I used the word "ethics" as the first of my reasons why many if not most men don't partake of such activities. But I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. Among other things, I'm sure.
Althouse said, "What if you found out your spouse was only attracted to the opposite sex?"
Was that an error? If so, ha ha and I'm wondering if it reveals something interesting that we don't know about....
>..he's never going to change.
I still think that Tiger is in this jam today because he is an obsessive with an addictive personality.
The very same traits that allowed him to become the best golfer were similarly at work in having him be "one of the best lovers" to a host of women who have known their fair share of lovers. Once this guy sets his mind to something, he will do it again and again, until he masters it. He is DRIVEN by something inside his head, that fortunately or not, most of us don't share.
His addiction to golf, and his drive to master that game, is why we know him at all. That suited our sensibilities. The sexual escapades? Not so much.
Woods was just named Athlete of the Decade by AP. A little inconvenient for him given he is in seclusion, but probably merited.
Its an apple and oranges thing when you put him against athletes like Lance Armstrong, Roger Federer, Michael Phelps - who dominated their sport or specialty events as much or more so than Tiger did his.
Armstrong and Federer have streaks in the 2000s that may stand up with Joe Dimaggios famous hitting streak as unapproachable...but show just how consistent and dominant they have been.
But one is in a minor sport of men in tights with huge aerobic and edurance capacities loved only by Euros, and the other is in tennis - a great sport - but one only a tenth as big and financially rewarding as golf.
Tiger gets the nod.
And the bitches. Weh de white bitches??
Im with you Penny but the mob wants blood.
I think that some people are driven to be the best, but that would probably apply to being the best husband and father or mastering themselves. Certainly the self-discipline necessary to become a world class golfer would apply to other parts of someone's life.
I also think, though, that many people who become very successful are dependent on the constant reaffirmation of their worth... in other words, it's an insecurity... and they tend toward careers where they receive public acclaim, like politicians and ministers, and also tend to cheat. The acclaim of a *spouse* after all, only lasts until the marriage at which point he or she *has* to say nice things and have sex with you.
Neither (TMI time again) my husband or I have that problem and will joke "I love you" or "I like you" followed by "it makes things so much easier that way" and laugh.
In any case, there are too many instances of hugely famous people who we find are drug addicted or stay in horribly abusive situations (say, Whitney Houston) to assume that world level success is caused by *confidence*.
The chances that sweet Elin has cheated on that cheater Tiger are ZERO.
That's not the scene I'm proposing.
I'm proposing that Tiger's wife is a shrew, nagging, and offering no sex.
Maybe Tiger can find a woman who is satisfied with him, he thinks.
That's a story with much higher odds than the story playing in the media.
Especially since she is good-looking.
"Why should I have to cater to him? I'm good looking."
Tiger's affliction is similar to a kleptomaniac that is challenged to steal what they could easily afford to buy. It is a need to cheat and win the contest that shows he is not limited by vows made to another. So Elin is seeing the truth. People do not change until the pain is more for not quitting than it is for staying like they are. A rich man will seldom be in that much pain. Can he change? Yes. Will he do it? She knows him better than we do and says no. The scriptures say that men are depraved in their "old man" which is a sin nature and that needs to be Born Again as a new man in Christ. So it is a miracle and a deliverance from his bondage that is the remedy prescribed, and freely offered, from the Christian viewpoint. Elin is likely right in her lack of confidence in a miracle happening for Mr Woods at this point. Maybe later.
I also think, though, that many people who become very successful are dependent on the constant reaffirmation of their worth... in other words, it's an insecurity... and they tend toward careers where they receive public acclaim, like politicians and ministers, and also tend to cheat.
Perfectionism belies an appalling fear of emptiness. A line from 'La question humaine' (2007)
"I'm proposing that Tiger's wife is a shrew, nagging, and offering no sex."
As opposed to pregnant, sleep deprived, and stuck at home with babies rather than out clubbing?
Or home with babies, pregnant, sleep deprived, hormonal, cranky, and desperate for adult attention?
Thats a possibility rh.
this is all speculation anyway.
Spike Lee, Charles Barkley, and Michael Jordon are lamenting Tiger's new unlisted phone number; he needs to talk to his bro's, they believe, to guide him through the tsunami of get-down, be-cool, bitch-slappin' adultery.
"Certainly the self-discipline necessary to become a world class golfer would apply to other parts of someone's life."
Someone who has been playing golf since the age of TWO, can hardly be expected to have enough time left in a 24 hour day to learn how to master a balanced adult life.
As opposed to pregnant, sleep deprived, and stuck at home with babies rather than out clubbing?
That's the story that holds female audience best, that's for sure.
They sell that audience to advertisers.
Just to be clear, there is no way a man can blame the mother of his kids for his being a male whoremonger. She didn't do it to him. The woman in these cases is usually blamed for "not fixing him" by those same people who never had any success in changing him themselves. When there is a horrible damage done everybody says it was not my fault...its your fault. BTW it is people like Tiger that assure the need for many lawyers, since it turns out that people we relate with are seldom honest and good like we believe.
Gillette should keep Tiger, but have him sell women's razors.
He walks past a line of ho legs petting on them and smiling.
Gillette
the best a man can get
Ouch ..
Synova trows a brushback.
"What if you found out your spouse was only attracted to the opposite sex?"
I.e., opposite from what you are. Not the best way to write that, concededly.
rh is asking to go to first he got hit for a replay .. but the ump says its not reviewable.
Get back in the batters box.
"That's the story that holds female audience best, that's for sure."
There's something about the experience of being cranky, hormonal, sleep deprived, and starved for adult attention, that so unfairly prejudices the female audience. *sigh* It couldn't possibly be that they remember going through that themselves or something. It must just be an excuse for jerking their husband around by denying sex.
If it helps at all, I have just as little sympathy for any woman who decides that because she is cranky, hormonal, sleep deprived and desperate for adult company and activities that her spouse is not "meeting her emotional needs."
So she dumps her often-supportive husband in a year long process of divorce, by which time her child or children are a year older and sleeping through the night and she *feels* better, less cranky, less hormonal, and *still* thinks it was her husband's fault.
Only now the kids, nasty little soul sucking energy leaches that they are, get to grow up with divorced parents.
Yay!
Tiger was horny, he had no scruples, and women wanted to be with him.
No deep psychology in this soap opera.
"I'm proposing that Tiger's wife is a shrew, nagging, and offering no sex."
Rh, studies of male infidelity seem to say that men don't cheat for sexual reasons, but for lack of appreciation.
This comes from the 50 to 60 percent of men who admit to cheating on their wives, IN SURVEYS! Talk about your friggin' iceberg! lol
rh seems to have asked for a timeout.
meantime Penny warms up in the bullpen.
Lem, you know I'm a fan.
Two thumbs up, my friend.
.........................
OK, so where was I?
Right! In the bullpen.
Only now the kids, nasty little soul sucking energy leaches that they are, get to grow up with divorced parents.
Synova is on top of her game .. this is a dandy.
Synova is right.
The kids get lost in all of this.. sad.
Take the high odds story over the low odds story, is all I'm saying.
Unless you're selling audience.
If you're selling audience, take the story that holds the audience best.
"Take the high odds story over the low odds story, is all I'm saying."
Indeed.
Of course, the high odds story is that Tiger is a cad who likes sex with lots of disposable women, even while married.
He didn't have an affair of emotional consequence to make up for underappreciation at home: he gathered (and had others gather) a long string of trashy, vapid floozies.
rhhardin said: "What if she's a nagging shrew?"
I don't disagree with you often, rh, but in this case...good grief.
So what if she is? What if she's the biggest bitch in the world? Divorce her, get custody of the kids, marry a new woman and she can become their mother. If there is something wrong with Elin, that doesn't give Tiger an excuse to bone everything he sees.
Althouse said: "It's as though she's discovered what he is -- similar to finding out he's homosexual..."
No, not exactly. Elin has discovered what he is, though: He's an ASSHOLE.
An A-S-S-H-O-L-E.
He's a selfish, gluttonous prick who would jeopardize the physical and psychological health of the mother of his children, while she's pregnant with their first child, in order to stick his penis into the orifices of various stink-nasty trollops.
Call me a bleeding-heart liberal, but I don't equate homosexuality with a complete lack of ethics, compassion, and self-control.
somefeller said...
...
I guess someone hasn't heard of sociobiology, which is a field that isn't generally considered left-liberal in its views and adherents. But that's no surprise. Also, I didn't make an excuse for this bad behavior, as shown by the fact that I used the word "ethics" as the first of my reasons why many if not most men don't partake of such activities. But I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. Among other things, I'm sure.
I didn't know it had a name, but people have been trying this ploy all my adult life, anything to alleviate someone of their responsibilities.
The Catholic Church, for a couple of millenia, has taught intellect and free will - you know right and wrong and you make a conscious decision. El Tigre did just that. It was why he tried to keep it secret.
PS Spare me the galloping snides about educational background. "Sociobiology" sounds like it's in the same basket as "womyn's studies".
Doesn't evolution drive every guy to have sex with multiple women? There's nothing special about the urge, but most of us learn to control it.
Me, I'm thinking if I really love a girl why would I want to hurt her like that?
Prince Charles and Mark Sanford had affairs with women significantly less attractive than their wives, and in those cases I think the whole "soulmate" thing was actually true. Charles was probably in love with Camilla long before he met Diana.
Tiger's hos range from significantly less attractive than his wife to a little less attractive, but that does not factor in pregnancy and post-pregnancy weight. Moreover, few or none of these relationships would qualify as a real "affair" - rather he was just hitting that.
So what if she is? What if she's the biggest bitch in the world? Divorce her, get custody of the kids, marry a new woman and she can become their mother.
That's a soap opera plot line.
I'm saying be aware of the audience.
Audience size determines the story.
"I'm saying be aware of the audience.
Audience size determines the story."
Well now. That's more like it, rh.
NOW we have something we agree on.
Should we continue on with this, or do you think we should slide back into moralizing about the Wood's marriage?
At once or serial?
I got to give kudos to rh for sheer bravado.
Not easy to face the veteran staff.
Is the need for multiple partners a sexual orientation?
I have no idea what the answer is, but that is a brilliant question!
It was why he [Tiger] tried to keep it secret.
Did he, really?
As a woman who left a sex-addicted husband, I'd say no--he probably is never going to change. And there is a difference between the guy who has an affair and the guy who goes out and does what Tiger's doing with God-knows-how-many women. And the difference between a sex-addict and a drug-addict or alcoholic is that there's really no way to be sure if your husband's fallen back in to addiction. That, and you're just waiting for him to bring home an incurable STD.
And yes, there is such a thing as a sex addict. I would have laughed at the term until my own Tiger story forced me to do research--and therapy.
Is the need for multiple partners a sexual orientation?
It seems more a sub-cultural orientation, even an imperative.
PS Spare me the galloping snides about educational background. "Sociobiology" sounds like it's in the same basket as "womyn's studies".
Comments like that eliminate any need for me to make a galloping snide about educational background.
While marriage and cheating are incompatable, they are also entirely normal for the totality of history among most animals including the human male. Only human males need explain it, but they have no better excuse than any other animal. That is supremely unfair. Thus God gave MAN dominion over the other animals as a compensation for this. He should have avoided marriage and got a dog.
"At once or serial?"
How could I know?
But Cher, she knew. She knew that "Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain."
La-dee-da-dee-dee
La-dee-da-dee-da
For good or bad, we get headaches one at a time.
And there is a difference between the guy who has an affair and the guy who goes out and does what Tiger's doing with God-knows-how-many women.
Yeah, the difference is Tiger has a hell of a lot more money and fame than most guys, so his pool of available women was much larger. Plus he was always on the road, so he had plenty of time without the wife watching him. The difference, in other words, is opportunity, not motivation.
From what I can see there are men who will cheat and men who won't. The cheaters will cheat as much as they think can get away with. The non-cheaters will end an association with anybody who might turn out to be too tempting to resist.
And I don't buy the concept of "sex addict", especially for men. The vast, vast majority of men are "sex addicts". That's how we're made. Would you be a "coke addict" if everyone was born with an unquenchable craving for coke? No, you'd be normal. Pretending it's some kind of medical problem is just a way to duck responsibility.
You Can't Change A Man
Rh, I would be more inclined to consider your hypothesis if Tiger hadn't turned out to be a total he-whore.
What is it now, fourteen women have come out? So how many probably haven't? Double that? Triple? Ten times? Who knows? We're only going to see the women who have nothing to lose. Odds are that that wasn't the only kind he slept with.
Falling into bed with every person who'll fall with you is not, I don't think, an outgrowth of being nagged and denied. The outgrowth of that if the spouse strayed, I would imagine, would be another woman, an actual mistress.
If it is, in fact, an orientation, you would expect that such men might be disproportionately married to frigid shrews. If they're going to screw around anyway, what do they care if the wife isn't so nice as long as she brings something else like beauty or social status?
However, this is all general theory. I've yet to see any evidence that Elin is in any way a poor wife.
Also, I don't think the "poor Elin" story is the one that's been selling. I've been shocked at how many women I've heard say things like, "Well, she should have known when she married an athlete with all that money." Many women speak as though she had it coming! Sour grapes, I guess.
It seems worthy of mention, at least to me, that Tiger Woods is not "everyman", although the press reports would want you to believe that he is, now that he's fallen from their grace.
Then of course there is the "Testosterone exuding athlete" with too much time and money, angle, which will never be outdone by the more inclusive angle of "The arrogant, rich and famous man."
And on and on, because there is something in OUR nature that has us "looking in" to cheer the rise, and of course, the inevitable fall.
Heh. Shaq, yes that Shaq, just posted this on Twitter:
Sometimes your gift takes you to a place that your charachter is not prepared to handle. Kwame kilpatrick
Perhaps that sums it up. You have a he-whore who makes it big and then marries the dream wife, but he hasn't caught up to taming his he-whority, and his achievement of high status brings constant temptations.
Did this incredibly rich, young and famous man actually sit down with his lawyer and decide to sign a contract making his infidelity a breach that would cost him millions of dollars. That seems incredibly stupid, naive, and risky. Or he was in love, but it's still stupid, naive and risky. As for Elin and her lawyer: simply brilliant. Like betting with 4 aces and they are all showing.
This is the only thing that makes me want to be a woman; an extremely attractive one of course. You can always make this bet and you either win a great marriage or a great bank account.
This story hasn't interested me much until tonight as I think about how it all happened. Why did he marry her, love? If so, it was an immature one and surely faded long ago. Was it some kind of social pressure? Was she pregnant when they agreed to marry? I just don't get it from his side, but I'm 51 and never married so maybe a freak like me can't judge "real" people. I've never married because I expect this kind of thing and have never fallen in love with anyone I trusted enough to be sure it wouldn't. Cheating to me is a relationship killer even without a marriage vow.
While marriage and cheating are incompatable, they are also entirely normal for the totality of history among most animals including the human male. Only human males need explain it, but they have no better excuse than any other animal. That is supremely unfair. Thus God gave MAN dominion over the other animals as a compensation for this.
Actually, as I have pointed out before, they really are somewhat compatible, or at least part of our natural state.
To summarize, so as not to bore everyone again, human females have two different goals with their mating. One is to nail down the best mate (husband) that she can to help raise her kids with her. The other is to obtain the best genes.
Alpha males put most of their resources into their mates and legitimate children, but screw around on the side, since those kids are a bonus genetically.
And best males, the vast majority of us, just want to make sure that the kids we are raising aren't from some alpha male sowing his oats in our mate.
Keep in mind that our closest living relatives, the two species of chimps, are not monogamous. We evolved quasi-monogamy because of the additional resources needed to raise kids through their extended childhoods.
"Sometimes your gift takes you to a place that your character is not prepared to handle."
That's a great quote for the gifted!
What about the rest of us characters?
Shaq just quoted the former mayor of Detroit?
That's truly bizarre.
Penny said...
"Sometimes your gift takes you to a place that your character is not prepared to handle."
That's a great quote for the gifted!
Or for those of us fundamentally deficient in character.
""Sometimes your gift takes you to a place that your character is not prepared to handle."
or
"Sometimes your character takes you to a place that your gift is not prepared to handle."
Slightly different message, but still works.
Is there some parallel between "He-whore" and "Eeyore?"
Eeyore: "Thanks for noticin' me."
He-whore: "Hello, world!"
Eeyore: Biggest problem is that his tail keeps coming off.
He-whore: Biggest problem is the tail that he keeps coming off with.
Eeyore: House keeps falling down.
He-whore: Reputation keeps falling down.
Eeyore: Depressed: all sad and boggy.
He-whore: Undressed: likes to do it doggy.
Eeyore: Hates being bounced.
He-whore: Precisely the opposite.
Eeyore: Full of sawdust.
He-whore: Full of s--t.
I have no doubt that he did the horizontal bop with these women, but let's imagine two or three women who where just acquaintances did conspired to lie and claim this happened with them. Despite his denials, it likely would be believed by many including some close to him like Elin. With the current state of our fame-obsessed culture, it would be worthwhile to the conspirators since they would get the tabloid fame and payoffs even without any proof, which there rarely is anyway. 10,000 years of civilization and this is where we are on a personal/public level. That's the fail.
Oh yeah, he's fucked.
rhhardin said...
Nobody seems to be suspecting that she's no great deal either.
Yet there is a living stereotype of the nagging wife.
No tentative connection is made in the media, I assume because the soap opera audience would tune away.
Oh, don't you worry. She is a sympathetic figure now, but it will come out eventually. Then watch the fur fly.
Promiscuity is not a sexual orientation. The fact of the matter is, is that TW is a sex addict. Plain and simple. I'm not excusing his behavior, but I have to call a spade a spade. The dude has problems, serious life changing problems.
A need for multiple partners?
If I had a nickel for each time I reminded my kids of the difference between a need and a want, then maybe I could afford a $15,000 hooker.
But I wouldn't pretend that I needed one.
I think it would be more accurate to talk about a compulsion for multiple partners.
And while I'm not Masters and Johnson, I'm pretty sure that a compulsion and an orientation are different things.
And as to the person who asked about whether such talk was wise while still negotiating the re-nup, have you no idea how negotiations work? His lawyers want her to stay. By floating this suggestion that she's inclined to divorce, she's putting pressure on them.
Lem said...
Synova is right.
The kids get lost in all of this.. sad.
No, no they don't. They instantly become front and center as tools.
What is a bit interesting about Tiger's sex addiction is that women often save men from addiction. I don't have any numbers but I have plenty of anecdotes where strong women forced their men to confront their addictions and helped change their lives. The problem with sex addiction v drug or alcohol addiction is you probably can't count on your significant other for help.
An interviewer once asked Paul Newman how he coped with all the women who threw themselves at him. His answer (as best I can recall): "Why should I have hamburger on the road when I can have steak at home?" The steak, of course, being Joanne Woodward.
rhhardin wrote: Nobody seems to be suspecting that she's no great deal either.
Yet there is a living stereotype of the nagging wife.
No tentative connection is made in the media, I assume because the soap opera audience would tune away.
If Elin were the nagging shrew that you claim she is (your 6:54 comment implies that), that might explain Tiger being driven to the arms of another women. It wouldn't explain his being driven to the arms (and open legs) of every available woman.
And one of the clubs he apparently frequents (the Roxy here in Orlando) is known for being both extra sleazy and prone to violence. The man going there isn't just trying to get away from a nagging wife, he's a danger junky.
Just to be clear, the Roxy is considered extra sleazy by those that frequent other strip clubs in town. My personal knowledge is 15 years out of date so I checked with someone in the know earlier this week.
The Drill SGT said...
"how can publizing that you are divorcing help in renegotiating a prenup? Is that a sound strategy? I would think that if you wanted a new and larger prenup, you'd go the route to talk about making up, etc."
I think she enters this particular world series of poker starting at the main event table with all the chips and a friendly dealer. Can you imagine the negotiations?
Tiger: I'll give you 10 mil
Elin: Throws down a picture card
Tiger: Raise that to 20 mil
Elin: Throws down a picture card...
Bruce always forgets part of the sociobiology (evolutionary psychology) story: the female instinct for hybrid vigor.
A surprisingly high percentage of children are not genetically related to their apparent fathers.
Hybrid vigor is better for the species genetically in the long run.
Women engage hybrid vigor on the DL to keep the caretaker around.
-------------
Re addiction or compulsion
I don't know, but the baby-daddy to two of my bff's five children (yeah, I know) was sexually abused as a child by his own father.
I saw the tiny house he grew up in. Everybody in that family knew Dad was assfucking Bobby. No way not to know it.
He grew up to be an absolutely compulsive pussy chaser and Johnny Appleseed. I think it might be partly homophobia, trying to prove to the world and himself that he isn't gay for having taken it in the tailpipe for so many years. That wasn't by choice.
It's quite the challenge for my bff to maintain the list of his children to inform her kids, so they don't engage in accidental incest.
*sigh*
Such a world we live in.
So--Tiger's dad treated him weird, obviously. Maybe he raped him on a regular basis too and turned him into a compulsive fucker. <Literally.
Yeah, the nagging wife shrew scenario might fly if he had one or two emotionally involved and supportive affairs over the time of their marriage.
As it is, there are too many white girls in the woodpile.
"What if you found out your spouse was only attracted to the opposite sex? You'd be angry about the deception, but would you want to stay bound in matrimony to that person."
You can call me harsh if you like, but I'm of the opinion that if a person discovers his/her sexuality is not what was originally thought while married with kids, he/she has a duty to the children to suck it up until the kids are grown.
I don't care about your wants; I only care about not dragging the kids through a broken family becuase you couldn't figure this out before you brought them into the world.
I am encouraged.
All the opprobrium for the betrayal of his marriage vows suggests there might remain, somewhere deep beneath the prevailing cultural imperative for guiltless narcissism, the quiet pulse of virtue, with each beat whispering honor, integrity, duty.
I drink to its return.
Good for her. She actually has some self respect and might have married him for reasons other than money. If she had stayed with him for a few years to let the thing blow over in exchange for a few million, she would have been just as big of a whore as Tiger's girlfriends. The fact that she is instead leaving and taking her chances with the existing pre-nup says very good things about her character.
John said: "Good for her. She actually has some self respect and might have married him for reasons other than money."
I tend to agree (it's too late and too much in the news to avoid dragging the kids through it, and I think this is way over my line for when you should try to make it work for the kids anyway).
I would say the same for Gov. Sanford's wife, who recently filed for divorce.
Her insistance on standing by her man was, and remains, one of the reasons that I can never really respect Hillary Clinton (although for her, it's obviously less money than prestige and power).
WV: frost- not only a real word, but a seasonal one? Merry Christmas!
The market for soap opera is not very self-aware, or it doesn't care that it's a market.
One clue is interest in celebrities.
"I tend to agree (it's too late and too much in the news to avoid dragging the kids through it, and I think this is way over my line for when you should try to make it work for the kids anyway)."
I agree. If he had had a single g/f and it hadn't gotten out to the media, then maybe you stay to spare the kids this. But, this many women for this long of a time in this public of a way, is over any line. I would imagine to that this is not the first time this came up. I bet she has given him "another chance" before.
Clearly, Tiger got into this marriage mistaking an immature love for the real thing - with the result being a lot of collateral damage. Emotionally, he's just a kid. With all the bimbos falling out of the trees, she gets that and has made her call.
I've known several men and a couple of women who were compulsive about serial sex. Always figured it was psychological (one of the women blamed the death of her twin brother when they were in high school).
But now that I'm in my 60s and my hormones are out of whack, my intake includes drugs to boost testosterone and knock back estrogen. When I was first adjusting, I was ready to jump every other woman I saw!
Research shows that athletic victories boost testosterone levels. Maybe Tiger is just the victim of his winning ways.
The DNA pool does not adhear to contracts.
Pogo says:
I drink to its return.
Better pace yourself, it's bound to be a while.
I sip intermittently to its return.
I'm proposing that Tiger's wife is a shrew, nagging, and offering no sex.
I dunno how likely that is, but it's possible. I know a guy who married a golddigger during his midlife crisis.
She is currently making his life hell in hopes of getting half his stuff in the divorce.
Sucks to be him.
Interpretation from Bee-yotch speak into English:
"I don't like to think. I'm never going to change. I've been so self-obsessed that I drove my husband for years to strip bars to get nookie. So he would leave me alone and not be such a physical pest. Now, I'm going to get a bunch of his money, which is what I married him for anyway. Yippee."
Something I've always wondered about is the thought processes of white women (especially blonds) who marry black men (in general--not Tiger--who is mixed in any event) and have children by them. If the child is a girl the odds are that she will have physical characteristics (kinky or "hard" hair, dark skin, broad nose, etc) that are the very things that the child's Father would purposely eschew in the kind of woman he desired as an adult. To put it bluntly most black men who marry white blond women would NEVER under ANY circumstance give a second look to a woman who looked like his own child.
I wonder what goes thru the white woman's mind knowing that her husband would never consider a female child of their issue good looking enough in terms of color of skin or quality of hair to consider marrying if she were a grown up woman? Do they even give that a thought? I mean, ipso facto, the black male is marrying/dating the white blond EXACTLY because she does NOT have negroid characteristics. So why would she want to have a child by him that would have the very characteristics (to a degree) that her husband obviously found undesirable in the first place? Tiz a puzzlement....
And if one doubts that black men don't eschew black women for the reasons I've just outlined above, why is it that when such men show off pictures of their children they always preface it with the statement:"Look at my pretty "brown" babies!" They NEVER say: "Look at my pretty "black" babies!"--despite the fact that the black community trumpets the "black is beautiful" mantra at every opportunity. If black is so beautiful......
If reports of the imminent divorce are true, good for Elin.
Good for Tiger, too, allowing him to live the gangsta-baller lifestyle so admired in the ghetto. Yes, it's downright inspiring, another generation of crooked-hats, bitches, and ho's.
Taking Tiger's whores, er, partners at their word, Tiger was into very rough sex. I'm convinced he hid this side of him from Elin and convinced himself he had changed and for a while he had. But then his old behavior began to emerge and freaked Elin out. Tiger promised he would change and did for her while acting out his fetishes with other women.
Elin's a smart woman and once she was able to stand back and make sense of things, she realized that Tiger repeatedly lied to her and he simply isn't worth her emotional investment.
Or Tiger told her "I'm not going to change; accept the real me or leave."
BTW, a question for the lawyers here. I've always assumed that [most] pre-nuptial agreements had an equivalent of a moralities clause in them. That is, they weren't carte blanche for one spouse to do whatever they damn well pleased. Is that true? Are there any state limits on how far such an agreement can go (to take it to absurd limits, an agreement that one spouse kill themselves on the death of the other wouldn't be legal. But would such a clause invalidate the entire agreement?)
I only care about not dragging the kids through a broken family becuase you couldn't figure this out before you brought them into the world.
Hate to break the news to you, but most kids see right through this and quite often are more resentful of the deception.
A marriage can be broken without there being a separation. Likewise, a divorce done with civility can result in a far better home life for the children.
The modern view of Prenuptual Agreements is to enforce them so long as they were entered into with full disclosure of assets, and non-coercion, which means a financial statement, independent legal representation and a sufficient time before the Date of the marriage to negotiate seriously, such as 2 months. The old views included morality exceptions or outlawed prenups altogether until recently. The usual tactic at divorce time is to attempt to void the PreNup ( which is a divorce settlement pre negotiated) on some grounds, but only to use that as weight to push for a slightly more favorable settlement by re-negotiating to avoid threat of bigtime loss, extra delays and large attorney's fees. There are now states where no morality issues are ever allowed in any case at all. So if you married before prenups were done, watch out where you move to because it's too late to add one.
If the child is a girl the odds are that she will have physical characteristics (kinky or "hard" hair, dark skin, broad nose, etc)
You mean like Halle Berry and Alicia Keys? I think Mariah Carey's father is also of African descent. Plenty of beautiful biracial women that are WKHOB-worthy for most men, black, white, yellow, brown or green.
Is the need for multiple partners a sexual orientation?
Hmm. If one's sexual behavior is reflective of an "orientation," well, then, look out below! I mean, think about the legal ramifications. Do I have to spell it out for ya?
'Taking Tiger's whores, er, partners at their word, Tiger was into very rough sex. I'm convinced he hid this side of him from Elin and convinced himself he had changed and for a while he had. But then his old behavior began to emerge and freaked Elin out. Tiger promised he would change and did for her while acting out his fetishes with other women.' - Joe
You're 'convinced'? Well, it could be true.
But you haven't got the slightest idea if it's true or not, since you know nothing about the actual details of the matter except what's in the media, and as somebody above noted, the 'narrative' of any news story is determined by the news agency's perception of its audience composition and the desired advertiser target demographics.
It's as likely or unlikely as any of several other theories about what happened. It _could_ be that Tiget is just a jerk, that Elin married him for his money and he knows it, that Tiger was messed up by how he was raised, etc, etc. We know nothing about the inner details, and probably never will.
"All the opprobrium for the betrayal of his marriage vows suggests there might remain, somewhere deep beneath the prevailing cultural imperative for guiltless narcissism, the quiet pulse of virtue, with each beat whispering honor, integrity, duty.
I drink to its return." - Pogo
It's there, yes, but this pathetic story isn't a sign of it.
It's one of the conventions of soap opera that the fans are supposed to hate the philandering character, but at the same time they want to see a lot of the stuff they hate.
Notice the _pattern_ to the outrage, who is outraged at what, and who says what they think happened. This 'news story' is falling, like so many others, into classic cultural 'roles', depending on who is following it and commenting on it.
Tiget is either a a self-centered asshole with an innocent loving wife, UNLESS he's a poor guy trapped married to a bitch who just wanted his cash, UNLESS he's a victim of being raised to be a golf prodigy, UNLESS he's a typical guy who was deceived by a woman who pretended to have a high sex drive and then turned icy at motherhood, UNLESS he's a sex addict not responsible for his actions, UNLESS sex addiction is just an excuse for bad behavior, UNLESS it's just evolution in action, on and on and on.
All the reactions to the story are predictable and falls into one of several cultural scripts.
Johnny1A, you are correct; I relied on the opening "If" to imply what I was saying was pure conjecture since it entirely rested on that opening sentence. I should have made it more clear that this was the case and added that were it the case it has been my observation that my conclusions are such due to human nature.
I do think you are being a little, perhaps deliberately, naive. Regardless of motivation, Tiger was cheating on his wife in a rather extreme way. While some speculation on this site and much elsewhere is attempting to lay blame, other is attempting to understand it from a sociological perspective.
This episode also raises some interesting questions about whether people can change, whether promiscuity is ever justified, whether a spouse should stay in a marriage regardless (most people would say no, but what is the threshold for leaving?)
I don't care about Tiger one way or the other. I am curious, though, about why people do the things they do and so forth. In that light, my speculation isn't merely me making stuff up, but is based on what I've seen in other comparable situations.
The world is full of attractive women that I can't have. We could start with the simple fact that I stood before God, family and friends and swore an oath which I take seriously. I'm sorry Tiger could not take his oath seriously.
Being married has not struck me blind, nor has it damped my other senses, the world is still full of attractive women (Hi, Althouse!) but there is that little thing called being a grown up. Too bad Tiger hasn't figured that one out.
Orientation my ass.
"Orientation my ass."
Apparently it is an orientation, albeit a sub-cultural orientation. This was recently verified by Wood's high school sweetheart, a blond, blue-eyed, white girl - when she revealed that Tiger's father was also a serial cheater.
It seems Tiger and his HS sweetheart spent three years together, including attending the senior prom together. Later, for reasons still unknown to the girl, Tiger broke off their relationship via a letter - part of which she read on air.
She also doesn't understand why Tiger followed in his father's adulturous footsteps, not after complaining about his father's elicit affairs, which caused his parents to essentially lead seperate lives.
Which, by the way, is perfectly consistent with Earl and Tiger's specific, sub-cultural orientation. But not her's.
"I do think you are being a little, perhaps deliberately, naive. Regardless of motivation, Tiger was cheating on his wife in a rather extreme way. While some speculation on this site and much elsewhere is attempting to lay blame, other is attempting to understand it from a sociological perspective." -- Joe
Nope. Not naive. I'm not even talking about Tiger. I'm talking about the fact that we know nothing at all about the whole business (other than that he was serially cheating). _That's it._
That's all we know.
That's not enough information to do anything other than speculate blindly, and most of the speculation going on, not just here on this site but nation-wide, is falling into very familiar patterns.
Maybe the problem is with the Christian marriage vows. Monogamy is simply contrary to (male) nature. Stepping out on your wife is still never a great idea, but promising not to do it is like promising never to forget her birthday. Avoid the behavior, but skip the promises.
I said: I only care about not dragging the kids through a broken family because you couldn't figure this out before you brought them into the world.
Joe said: Hate to break the news to you, but most kids see right through this and quite often are more resentful of the deception.
A marriage can be broken without there being a separation. Likewise, a divorce done with civility can result in a far better home life for the children.
******
And that is exactly the sort of thing selfish parents tell themselves to justify their selfish behavior.
Sucking it up means you're an adult about it, not that you suffer through it by hanging on with a martyr complex or acting uncivily. Don't want to grow up? Don't have kids.
Personal note: My parents certainly could have gotten divorced when I was young; In fact, I sometimes thought they would. They didn't, because they're adults and good parents.
Now that I work for a court that handles custody disputes and parenting plans, and I interact with peers that grew up in those circumstances, I am very, very grateful they didn't put my siblings and I through that experience.
I'm talking about the fact that we know nothing at all about the whole business (other than that he was serially cheating). _That's it._
That's all we know.
No, that's not all we know. We know quite a bit. Maybe it's fragments, but we actually DO know quite a bit. The problem is filtering the stuff that is fact from the stuff that's simply made up by newspapers and/or opportunists.
* * *
And that is exactly the sort of thing selfish parents tell themselves to justify their selfish behavior.
Oh, bullshit! I'm not divorce and nobody in my immediate family is divorced so I'm not trying to justify anything. The notion that divorce is the worse thing possible is horrific. Let's say you have a spouse that's being thrown in jail on a semi-regular basis; do you really believe that keeping the marriage together is good for the kids? What if the spouse is smacking the kids around? Or even threatening to kill them? What if one spouse is constantly putting down the other or one of the children?
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