Althouse: Holder holds forth.

November 18, 2009

Holder holds forth.

On the KSM trial.

50 comments:

Fred4Pres said...: If it goes badly he and his boss will never be forgiven.; 11/18/09, 2:17 PM
traditionalguy said...: Holder is the best example of the shell game called Democrat Party politics these days. The long speech accepting the reality which we believe too makes us believe that they will do the right thing about it. Then there is an appeal to a noble sentiment, such as Justice or The Constitution is sacred. Finally they do the exact wrong thing hoping that the idiots stopped listening several minutes back. His bottom line is a sacred belief in the limitation of government powers being strictly applied to government actions against foreign enemies at war with us. The next day the Sacred Constitution is of NO EFFECT when that same government acts to steal everything Americans own and redistribute it. Holder is a bigger enemy than Al Queada because he is the hidden Fifth Column attacking from inside.; 11/18/09, 2:25 PM
Sprezzatura said...: His point that KSM would have a so-called platform in either system was noteworthy, as were the rest of his comments.

But, I've never understood why we don't win by allowing this platform. If KSM sticks to his standards, he will continue to admit his guilt and he will do all that he can to facilitate a quick execution. This seems like an acceptable resolution for us. It's not like he doesn't have a record of hating America, so nothing new will come out of this process.

But, what if he does decide to fight and drag out his conviction. What a colossal pussy.

After all his tough talk and hatred of our system, are we going to find out that his fear of his own martyrdom will turn him into a weaselly defendant looking for a technicality to save him from sacrificing himself? That is, when push comes to shove is he going to fail to do the one core action which allows his organization to exist? This is the core action that he's dedicated himself to inspiring in others. Arguably we would win the most if he does put up a fuss. And, don't forget that during the original announcement Holder said he had as yet undisclosed evidence against KSM, so even after a fuss KSM can expect the same conclusion.

The question is will he be shown to be a fraud, or an eager martyr?; 11/18/09, 2:34 PM
hdhouse said...: Ahhh now two chickenshits have been heard from.

If you twist your pea brains into more of a corkscrew to come up with even dumber and more outlandish objections I'd pay to see it.

What is wrong with a trial? Something GWB managed to avoid for years. Military Tribunals are uncharted and will take longer.

What are you so afraid of?; 11/18/09, 2:37 PM
Joe said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 11/18/09, 2:45 PM
Joe said...: Obama pronounced KSM guilty. How is this going to lead to a fair trial? And why is nobody addressing the double jeopardy issue? Or the chain of custody and chain of evidence issues?; 11/18/09, 2:46 PM
AC245 said...: Ahhh now two chickenshits have been heard from.

It's disresepectful to refer to AG Holder and President Obama as chickenshits.

Especially since Obama has promised that KSM will be found guilty and put to death, and Holder has promised that if something goes wrong and KSM is somehow not found guilty, we'll continue holding him indefinitely and put him on trial again as needed.

They're brave enough to go against what the American people want by putting KSM on trial in a civilian court, brave enough to guarantee the outcome of this show trial, and brave enough to promise that if at first we don't succeed, we'll just ignore due process and the Constitution to try, try again.; 11/18/09, 2:46 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: I guess 64% of the people polled by CNN are chickenshit too.

Obama and his pals are radicals- they just don't comprehend how average Americans think.; 11/18/09, 2:59 PM
SteveR said...: OK I'm not a lawyer so someone tell me what happens when Miranda, speedy trial, etc., all those consitutional rights KSM did not, and will not recieve, come into play during the trial?

Precedence says he gets off on those issues or if not. it sets a new precedence. What are the rules and procedures?

I understand they have thought hard and know how to castrate the John Yoos of this matter but the "justice for the American people" Holder's so concerned with, seems available without this.; 11/18/09, 3:00 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Does anyone use a flowchart anymore when they make these executive decisions? If they had used a flow chart, the pitfalls would have been too obvious to ignore.; 11/18/09, 3:01 PM
Big Mike said...: What are you so afraid of?

Afraid? I think the proper word is "concerned." We are concerned that under the rules in civilian courts that sensitive information about sources and methods for intelligence collection will be exposed and that this will benefit terrorist organizations -- which extend beyond al Qaeda and the Taliban you might recollect. Remember when somebody blabbed that we had a fix on bin Laden through his satellite phone? Something like that could very well happen.

We're concerned that security can't be made as tight in a federal courthouse vice a military installation.

We're concerned that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, being quite a bit brighter than Zacarias Moussaoui (the so-called "twentieth hijacker"), could turn the proceedings into an even bigger farce than what Moussaoui was able to do back in 2006.

I'm concerned that if some members of the jury are Jewish that al Qaeda could exploit Arab anti-semitism in some fashion.

I don't get why you aren't equally concerned.; 11/18/09, 3:04 PM
Bender said...: And why is nobody addressing the double jeopardy issue? Or the chain of custody and chain of evidence issues?

Conservatives and independents are addressing those issues. But they don't count. For anything. Ever. Except to be the targets of blame for everything wrong in the world.; 11/18/09, 3:09 PM
traditionalguy said...: Hd house. We are afraid of becoming demoralised and listless when we see that our sworn enemy has all the rights ever imagined for free Americans who fight to keep them and we have no protection from Our government's leaders who instead favor those who fight to remove from Allah's earth all rights of free Americans. And do it for no reason at all except a challenge at our courage to prove our strength by falling for their next con job.; 11/18/09, 3:15 PM
AllenS said...: Holder, is dumber than Obama.; 11/18/09, 3:19 PM
miller said...: This gets curiouser and curiouser.

When do the adults take charge?; 11/18/09, 3:21 PM
Alex said...: What I don't like is my dear country(USA) being made a farce by multi-culti liberals. That's what I don't like.; 11/18/09, 3:26 PM
hdhouse said...: traditionalguy said...
Hd house. We are afraid of ... we have no protection from Our government's leaders who instead favor those who fight to remove from Allah's earth all rights of free Americans. And do it for no reason at all ."

That is such FAUX NOISE horseshit...you should be embarrassed.; 11/18/09, 3:33 PM
Andrea said...: Hmmm. Hdhouse's profile says he works in advertising and lives in the Hamptons. So... Liberal metrosexual with a typical rich kid's faux career at a fashion magazine? What do you want to bet.; 11/18/09, 3:52 PM
maninthemiddle said...: Actually, I find Holder's statement both disingenuous and naive.
Some months ago, we were told that KSM was going to plead guilty and was looking forward to his martyrdome. He had already espoused his position on the world and his last chance at the media would have been at sentencing.
Now it is a circus.
Give me a point from Holder's statement - I feel I can show his error - if not, I will certainly say as much.; 11/18/09, 3:54 PM
KCFleming said...: "That is such FAUX NOISE horseshit...you should be embarrassed."

It's these thoughtful, well-reasoned, and learned responses from liberals that fill me with confidence about the trial's effects.; 11/18/09, 3:56 PM
Jason (the commenter) said...: He is unable to give a reason why a civilian court with a jury trial was chosen. Holder either doesn't know what he's doing, or he did this on orders from Obama. If Obama didn't order this, he will soon fire Holder. That's how we'll know.; 11/18/09, 3:56 PM
ricpic said...: Holder consulted with his wife and his brother, who I believe is a transit cop, on whether to try KSM in a civilian court and they said, "Yeah bro, go for it." He then called Obama with his decision and Zero said, "Yeah bro, go for it." Think I'm joking? This is the way Eric 'splained the decision in an interview on NPR with one of their totally supine reporters. That's it. That's the sum total of how the decision was arrived at. So help me Hannah.; 11/18/09, 4:17 PM
former law student said...: Obama pronounced KSM guilty. How is this going to lead to a fair trial? And why is nobody addressing the double jeopardy issue? Or the chain of custody and chain of evidence issues?

Obama made a prediction about what KSM's jury will do: “I don't think it will be offensive at all when he's convicted and when the death penalty is applied to him,”

Good point about double jeopardy, but because Holder's not an idiot, he should be able to explain why jeopardy did not attach at KSM's earlier proceedings. And enough untainted, admissible evidence to convict KSM must exist, on the same Holder's-not-an-idiot premis.; 11/18/09, 4:30 PM
Sprezzatura said...: ricpic,

Try reading the link.; 11/18/09, 5:26 PM
Michael said...: I think KSM gets to the U.S. and the sdny and he gets amnesia. I think he says that one day he is taking a nap in Pakistan, the next he is getting the crap beaten out of him in a foreign country. Electrocuted. Fingernails pulled out. Eyes gouged. Waterboarded. Beaten again. For years and years. Of course he "confessed". Of course he said he wanted to die. Of course. But now none of that matters because it was all in some foreign land. Now the POTUS is saying he's guilty and the AG is saying he's guilty and he had once read that he is innocent until proven guilty. And guess what? After years and years of t.v. crime shows any prospective juror believes that a fair trial means that the guy has to have a 50/50 chance of getting off.

Forget some political "platform", this is going to reflect very poorly on our system of justice.; 11/18/09, 5:45 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Great line from Holder:

"I'm not scared of what Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has to say at trial. And no one else needs to be afraid either."

Conservatives have become such pants-wetting pussies. They're all afraid that holding a trial for KSM will hurt us somehow.

How exactly they never bother to say. Because they can't make a rational case that anyone besides crazies, teabaggers and Republicans will believe.

How, exactly, does this court case endanger anyone? If torturing both the guilty and innocent alike didn't endanger us, as con's insist, why would allowing our Constitutional principles to prevail in open court do so?

It's just more idiocy from the Right. They should STFU, strap on their Depends and let the law follow its course.; 11/18/09, 5:53 PM
Cedarford said...: Part of the problem is that KSM was part of a military organized group that declared War on America and waged that war as soldiers. Per Geneva, KSM and pals were unlawful enemy combatants because they deliberately shed uniforms and disregarded other rules of War.

But they sought targets identical to what we bombed in Germany, Vietnam, and Iraq.
Financial centers, military command and control, bombing or (hitting Yamamoto, the Phoenix program in Vietnam) to "decapitate" enemy leadership.

All these guys maintain they are not common civilian criminals. Just like soldiers in other wars. They attack from no profit motive, from no heat of passion assault. They declared war on us just like Germany declared war on us.

And if we look down the road...one thing that civilian trials will do is advance the radical notions of the Left that US soldiers should also be tried as common criminals in the ICC or other civilian courts for "crimes" or have to still stand trial for alleged crimes they are accused of.

Say, by the noble Victim Families of al Deshwar village in S Waziristan who lost 18 "innocent civilian" people to a bombing. Supposedly on AQ terrorists, but local politicians and lawyers disagree. They say it was murder - ordered by possible criminals in the Pentagon and White House, carried out by a pilot and staff working in Arizona driving a Predator armed and maintained by "complicit in the crime" Army & AF personnel at an undisclosed Pakistani base.

If KSM and other soldiers go to civilian courts, why can not people behind Predator strikes be indicted and extradited by Pakistani lawyers to have political show trials like what Obama and Holder wish for KSM??

Isn't that the point Holder and Obama want to reach? The tools of Whitey oppression of noble 3rd worlders to be criminalized on any military action we take against noble 3rd Worlders? At any time if a Progressive Jew of the ACLU, a Belgian lawyer, or the head of the local Pashtun Sharia council wishes them indicted and tried??; 11/18/09, 6:25 PM
Cedarford said...: We create the precedent that enemy on the other side are merely civilian criminals and that no such thing as a bright line exists between soldiers and criminals, stand by for our own guys to soon get the same treatment from the ACLU and Left..To say nothing about angry and aggrieved "noble" 3rd Worlders who wish our guys tried like we are doing with KSM.

Can we really object if we do this to KSM instead of just dealing with him in a military tribunal then executing him under military law? No Nazi or Jap war criminal /unlawful enemy combatant ever ended up in civilian court.

Is this the "rule of law" we seek? Our soldiers indicted by a Leftist lawyer in San Fran, or worse, held not soldiers but civilian crooks by some enemy nation they fall in custody of?

We should fear that, at least. That is the direction the Left is taking to criminalize acts of American Imperialist aggression. KSM is a stalking horse.; 11/18/09, 6:38 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Cedarford that is one desperate and lame argument.

So, accepting your claim that they have done this and declared war on us just for a moment...

Do you understand that, in reality, only nations can declare war? When you embrace their argument that they are just like a nation waging war on us, you are helping to inflate their value and power further. You are helping the terrorists look like more than they really are.

That's your approach and it's wrong. It's good for America that Holder is much wiser.

Really, you're missing a good opportunity to earn some scratch as AQ's publicist.; 11/18/09, 6:39 PM
Cedarford said...: Trad guy - Holder is a bigger enemy than Al Queada because he is the hidden Fifth Column attacking from inside.

Agree.

Look to the long term implications of what the Left and Holder are doing with civilian trials of enemy soldiers. Preparing the ground for all war or acts of self-defense and all soldiers to be subject to criminal judicial review. Here and abroad in "aggrieved" lands of enemies of the US.; 11/18/09, 6:43 PM
Kansas City said...: It is amazing how political bias causes people to see the same thing so differently. I'm a conservative with a very negative view of Holder and an increasingly negative view of Obama.

Alpha liberal calls this a Great line from Holder:

"I'm not scared of what Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has to say at trial. And no one else needs to be afraid either."

I heard the same line and it infuriated me. I don't need Holder proclaiming his personal courage (tell me anything he has ever done in his life showing courage) or telling me that I don't need to be scared. And, in the process, he falsely characterizes the opponents position. No one is "scared" of
what KSM will say. Opponents see no need to provide a terrorist who killed Americans in a war with the constitutional rights of a criminal trial or risk that his trial will disclose information that will cause Americans (or others) to be killed.

Why can't guys in this administration ever play things straight. He could explain his reasoning, accept the reasonableness of counter arguments and explain why he did not agree with them -- he does not need to characterize people who disagree with him as scared of what KSM will say.

Just a matter of common sense, KSM was pleading guilty last year before a military tribunal and asking to be executed. Instead, Holder decides to spend years and millions of dollars trying him in a criminal court. What lunacy.

And Obama claiming that this is entirely Holder's decision further infuriates me. Obama is the president. This decision should be made by him.; 11/18/09, 6:44 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Cedarford:

We should fear .

A great American President:

We have nothing to fear but fear itself.; 11/18/09, 6:47 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Demagoguery from the ignorant:
Holder is a bigger enemy than Al Queada because he is the hidden Fifth Column attacking from inside. .

Do you know what a Fifth Column is? You are basically accusing the Attorney General of treason because you think he should, instead, violate the US Constitution?

Do you even comprehend the lunacy of that argument?; 11/18/09, 6:51 PM
traditionalguy said...: Alpha Liberal...I have eyes and a mind that can analyse what they see. Why are you still following the illusions. I suggest that you get dis-illusioned as soon as you can. Holder is a Traitor.; 11/18/09, 6:58 PM
Cedarford said...: Alphaliberal - Do you understand that, in reality, only nations can declare war?

That is an argument stupid beyond belief, which rests on a Geneva "legalistic definition". It doesn't reflect reality.
War has been declared by breakaway groups as a 1st step towards declaring their own nation. War has been declared by the non-nation Palestinians a few times. War was declared by the Tamil Tigers.
War is declared on the tribal, non-nation level all the time.
War was declared against - not nations - but specific peoples (see the Nazis).

When you embrace their argument that they are just like a nation waging war on us, you are helping to inflate their value and power further.

Another stupid Lefty position. That somehow, when we say we are fighting a war with someone, we "inflate" them into being something more than what the Left calls "the common criminals and terrorists they all are". Which, BTW, is the identical argument the Apartheid S Africans made against the ANC and the Zionists make against all their enemies. Not soldiers, but terrorists and common criminals...it sounds, better, see.
And while it supposedly instantly diminishes the validity of armed insurgents or partisans - makes brutal repression legally justified if all resistance is deemed "common criminality".

See also the Spanish Civil War and what the Japs did to "common criminals in insurrection" against the lawful rule of the Emperor over them.

You are helping the terrorists look like more than they really are.

A third insincere Leftist talking point. Usually said simultaneously to how non-Leftists have groundless "fears" of a few hapless thugs brought to civilian court to have majestic justice meted out on them that will have the whole world gasping in admiration for our lawyers...but for the bellyaching of scaredy-cat conservative "wimps" too "afraid" to see mighty lawyers in robes humble Jihadis. (I always imagine that coming out of the mouth of an effeminate Vegan in a Seattle student teacher program).

NO, we don't generally think of enemies we crushed like bugs militarily...as "inflating their value and power" if we also refuse to give the ACLU and enemy sympathizers what they want with respect to endless due process and endless legal rights up to de facto US citizenship.
We simply want matters left out of civilian courts because it is a whole lot easier to kill and destroy enemy, and deal with appropriate survivors by tribunals - without the ACLU and other enemy rights people in the way.; 11/18/09, 7:10 PM
Cedarford said...: AlphaLiberal said...
Cedarford:

We should fear .

A great American President:

We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

The same great American President who told his good friend Justice Jackson and his AG

"I want those Nazi saboteurs hauled in front of a military tribunal and tried and executed within 30 days."
(They let him down. FDR said that on Jul 2nd, and the 1st saboteur began frying in the electric chair the military opted to use on Aug 8th.)

However, it seemed to have the effect FDR wanted. The Nazis never did another sabotage op, deeming it "{too dangerous and risky".

You make it too easy, Alpha Lib.; 11/18/09, 7:18 PM
traditionalguy said...: The only argument made by Holder for his favoring the enemy is that "America should not fear..." his giving of aid and comfort to the enemy. Rationally he is telling his Gaga liberals that it is very courageous to help enemies attack and kill us and thereby show how strong we are. Listen to him. We should have listened to Major Hasan who went ariund saying his acts were a show of courage. Why do you keep following these pied piper lines that self destruction is an act of courage to have PRIDE in doing to yourself????; 11/18/09, 7:26 PM
Kansas City said...: For anyone who wants to see Lindsay Graham politely put a clown suit on Holder in some questioning where Holder was clearly overmatched:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/11/18/graham_presses_holder_on_reading_osama_bin_laden_miranda_rights.html; 11/18/09, 7:28 PM
Chase said...: Lindsay Graham absolutely spanked Atty Gen Eric Holder today in the Congressional hearings. Holder had . . . . . absolutely no idea what to current law.

Holder's wife is gonna have to put cold cream all over her husband's ass tonight!; 11/18/09, 7:37 PM
Synova said...: OH!

I don't know if this is what was recommended to listen to Graham but he said that...

The court is fixed. It's not even a real trial!!!

Althouse? What is the law here?

It's a show trial. Pure and simple.

Graham asked Holder over and over to make CERTAIN that KSM would not be released NO MATTER WHAT. I can't tell if Graham thinks this is a good thing, but he's making Holder assert that KSM will not be released no matter WHAT happens.

So what is the trial for?; 11/18/09, 7:51 PM
Kansas City said...: The most appalling thing to come out today may have been the disclosure that there is a DOD/DOJ "protocol" that Holder repeatedly referred to which states a presumption that Grantanamo detainess will be tried in federal criminal court. If these guys intentionally wanted to lose the next election, they could not be doing a better job of it.

http://www.justice.gov/opa/documents/taba-prel-rpt-dptf-072009.pdf; 11/18/09, 7:51 PM
Synova said...: AL... isn't Holder violating the Constitution by his express statement that NO MATTER WHAT happens in court KSM will not be released?

There is NO assumption of innocence there.

It's a show trial.

When did our Constitution include provisions for show trails?; 11/18/09, 7:54 PM
Methadras said...: So now KSM and the Jihadi's, who were not captured in America, gets to have Constitutional provisions applied to them as if they were/are citizens? Really? So my citizenship doesn't mean shit when compared to being captured on the battlefield and brought to justice? So is KSM going to be mirandized? If he won't be then why is he in an a US criminal proceeding? If he is mirandized, then will he be afforded full or partial rights of US citizenship to fall under? Is the ACLU going to argue that if they are fully mirandized that they should received the full measure of legal protection and if they don't then they won't ever get a fair trial and thusly should either be set free or remanded to some other facility indefinitely? And how will Habeas Corpus be affected by this? Now that Obama has clearly tainted the process by administering his omnipotent legal wisdom by already determining the outcome of the trial, will whatever legal representation that is given to these sub-humans ask to have this case thrown out? Furthermore, if these lunatics decide, and most likely will end up representing themselves as a function of further spreading their sub-human jihadi message, will the court tell them they can't? Will the court realize that their self-representation will be tantamount to mistrial and deem the proceedings void?

Does President Barely and his token AG even understand the legalities of what they have foisted onto the American Justice System? These people are fucking morons and all for the sake of putting on a show that tries to say, "Hey, we aren't like Bush. Look how back-breakingly fair we are." God damn these people to hell.; 11/18/09, 7:56 PM
former law student said...: when compared to being captured on the battlefield and brought to justice?

What battlefield was KSM captured on?

guys, it's time for the War on Terror metaphor to be retired. Americans once again are in charge. Fearful people should assume the fetal position and start sucking their thumbs.; 11/18/09, 10:12 PM
Methadras said...: former law student said...

What battlefield was KSM captured on?

guys, it's time for the War on Terror metaphor to be retired. Americans once again are in charge. Fearful people should assume the fetal position and start sucking their thumbs.

It was a general term considering that the war on terror was/is being conducted in over 100 countries including Pakistan where KSM was caught. Did he carry a weapon and fire on US soldiers? No, but that's not what we are talking about is it. We have always been in charge, but unfortunately now it appears that your little leader wants to change that.; 11/18/09, 11:08 PM
Patm said...: I'm always amused by the "brave" liberals who are always so quick to call "chickenshit" when conservatives dare to express reasonable concerns about public safety when talking about an enemy that has attacked us on our own soil twice, (three times if you count Ft. Hood) and spent the 90's attacking our embassies and naval vessels.

These are the same liberals who -for a while- flew to their second homes on the east end of long island, or up the hudson, after 9/11, because they were so afraid of another attack. The same liberals who wanted the Emmy awards to be held in a military installation because they were afraid that the terrorists would go after their beautiful people.

The same liberals who talk a good game but rarely volunteer for military service.

We're all chickenshit, and they're all so brave. But I wonder, when the KSM trial is going on in NYC, how many of them will be in town, will go anywhere near the downtown? They'll let the yahoo firemen and cops risk their lives trying to save others, should anything go down during the trials, but they won't involve themselves.

Neither Obama or Holder were in NYC after 9/11. They did not smell that disgusting smell that stayed with us for weeks. They did not see the families of the dead, or the firemen trying to find or recover their brothers.

It's so easy to tell someone they're "chickenshit" when danger does not or has not touched you.

I find it ironic and sad that you assholes spent the last 8 years tearing down the man who put everything he had into keeping this nation safe, and now you'll defend the ignorant men who want to play politics with people who'd as soon kill you as look at you, who -had they been able to kill 30K, on 9/11, instead of just 3,000, would have been overjoyed.

KSM will have centerstage, and during discovery, much of our intelligence, and the secret means by which we gather it, will become exposed, and we will be much less safe. But politics will have been served.

What a bunch of ignorant losers you are.; 11/18/09, 11:42 PM
Patm said...: "When did our Constitution include provisions for show trails?"

When the politics of BDS trumped everything.; 11/18/09, 11:51 PM
Patm said...: "guys, it's time for the War on Terror metaphor to be retired. Americans once again are in charge. Fearful people should assume the fetal position and start sucking their thumbs."

What did Holder say today?

He said, "I know we're at war."

Grow up, asshat.; 11/18/09, 11:53 PM
TMink said...: Exactly what fred4pres said.

Except I maybe would have said "when it goes badly."

Trey; 11/19/09, 8:22 AM
hdhouse said...: Patm spewed...

These are the same liberals who -for a while- flew to their second homes on the east end of long island, or up the hudson, after 9/11, because they were so afraid of another attack."

actually not butthead. i didn't miss a day in nyc. did you?

"The same liberals who talk a good game but rarely volunteer for military service."

so wrong.

"We're all chickenshit"

if you say so.

"But I wonder, when the KSM trial is going on in NYC, how many of them will be in town, will go anywhere near the downtown?"

if work takes me downtown sure. why not.

"Neither Obama or Holder were in NYC after 9/11."

how long after? That day? Later in the week? when?

"It's so easy to tell someone they're "chickenshit" when danger does not or has not touched you."

my daughter left WTC 2 at 830am that day. I lost by count 27 business and personal friends.

go screw yourself.; 11/19/09, 12:03 PM