September 21, 2009

"The Hofstra University gang rape that wasn't."

Emily Bazelon writes:
Let's agree that something disturbing happened to that 18-year-old woman at Hofstra. Something she feels awful about. Any good, right-thinking feminist, and any good girlfriend, would encourage her to talk to a counselor about her story. The problem is that by going to the police and then recanting, she fit into a new story that backfires on her and on feminism in an ugly way. She becomes the false accuser, and the boys, like the Duke boys, become the victims. In these moments of recantation, all we can talk about is how wrong she was. And then we lose the conversation that happens at a level beneath the law: about how these late-night moments in a random bathroom that everyone regrets can stop before they start. I'm not sure how you do that. But I wish this was where we'd go, now that we know that whatever happened to this girl, it wasn't the legal definition of rape.
Most of the terrible things people do to each other are not crimes. And we also do a lot of terrible — and often sexual — things to ourselves. I think, on the whole, women would be better off if they stepped up to the adult work of taking responsibility for themselves. The men in this incident were awful too, but ladies, say no to awful men. Don't let men define what good sex is. And certainly don't let them act out their idea of good sex and then decide that you wanted something nicer.

413 comments:

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Laura(southernxyl) said...

Nausea is the feeling that you need to or are about to vomit.

Puking is the actual act of vomiting.

Laura(southernxyl) said...

On that uplifting note, good night.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Laura said...

William Kennedy Smith. The woman he brought home from the bar was so drunk she was calling him someone else's name - she didn't even know who he was. Do you think she was able to consent?

Easy. Yes. ( Assuming she was able to say the words, or perform acions to assist in the activities, and assuming she was not drugged. I don't remember the details of the case. )

Here's one for you. I have a longterm girlfriend, with whom I've had sex with many times, both sober and sligthly drunk, without ever a complaint, often with her initiating. One night, we both get very drunk, to the point that she is even drunker then the girl who was with William Kennedy Smith. She is all over me, and we have sex. The next morning, she wakes up, remembers what happened, and thanks me for my wonderful performance.

Did I rape her?

( Before you call the police to report this crime, I should point out that it is just a hypothetical. )

Anonymous said...

Summer Anne, why no mention of the thousands of victims in the Belteguessian Wars of 4th Qtr?

Seriously, you've had your statistical ass handed to you, so you simply ever-expand your definitions. (ie: 40% ain't "TINY") Lame.

Revenant said...

William Kennedy Smith. The woman he brought home from the bar was so drunk she was calling him someone else's name - she didn't even know who he was. Do you think she was able to consent?

I'm curious if you have a source for the claim that the woman was too drunk to identify Kennedy. During the trial she gave lucid descriptions of what had happened, including meeting Uncle Ted. I don't remember hearing that she didn't know who she was with, and none of the histories of the trial I checked mention it either. Furthermore, she claimed that Kennedy tackled her and forcibly had sex with her, not that he got her too drunk to refuse him.

I would also ask how Kennedy could have raped her if he was drunk too. :)

Ralph L said...

Shanna said...
[I'm disturbed by the thought of a woman consenting to sex with five men she didn't know.]

Totally.

Men do that all the time in GayWorld and aren't disturbed (well, not in the way you are).

Who knew that fake rape was the new Palin?

fivewheels said...

Well, now Althouse and Bazelon have a bloggingheads up that starts with this case. And I'm not in a place where I can listen to it. The suspense is killing me. I wonder when they did it?

Cedarford said...

Laura(southernxyl) said...
Ignorance is bliss (and I'll agree with that much after this latest revelation) I'd like to ask you one:

William Kennedy Smith. The woman he brought home from the bar was so drunk she was calling him someone else's name - she didn't even know who he was. Do you think she was able to consent? (And yes, I remember that he was acquitted.)


William Smith's version of the story was that she was loaded, wet, and eager..and pretty drunk. And he was eager, ready and drunk. And when he finished, she called him back into the saddle for another go at it.

Once of the funniest parts of the trial was the screw bitch prosecutor who professed amazement and disbelief that a young man could cum twice in such a short period of time...and drunk...

Meanwhile, her husband was likely cringing in a corner somewhere as he was acidentally made testimony to millions about his own sexual virility.
Silly, silly prosecutor!
Maybe she should have asked someone she knew if they knew any overcharged, sex-addicted men and if it was "possible" for a man to actually come twice..

And last but not least...did she not know the accused had Kennedy genes???

For all we know, Teddy was banging away at Mary Jo and trying to finish even as the car was sinking and water was flooding in.

Shanna said...

Why do so many people on this thread want to have sex while actually puking :)

There are good reasons why we don't leave it up to the family of a supposed victim to decide who is guilty of the crime!

Certainly, in a court of law, but we are not talking about that. All I was giving was a little anecdote, as I said before, finding absolute numbers of unreported rapes is a task for sure.

Shanna said...

Oh, and on the "how drunk is too drunk" comment, I think if someone is unable to speak, they should be off limits. That is too drunk.

And now I gotta go to work.

Peter Hoh said...

410 comments about bathroom sex and no one has brought up Larry Craig?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

No George Michael either.

Revenant said...

"There are good reasons why we don't leave it up to the family of a supposed victim to decide who is guilty of the crime!"

Certainly, in a court of law, but we are not talking about that.

You're missing the point. If a family member claims to have been victimized by someone outside the family, we are predisposed to believe them.

So asking me "if my sister claimed to have been raped, would I believe her" is a pointless question. Yes, I probably would. That doesn't mean I would be right.

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