Althouse: "A Health Care for America Now (HCAN) organizer is caught on tape outside the meeting instructing supporters on how to shout down opponents..."

September 1, 2009

"A Health Care for America Now (HCAN) organizer is caught on tape outside the meeting instructing supporters on how to shout down opponents..."

From Gateway Pundit:

Via Instapundit, who says: "Remember, what they accuse their opponents of is usually what they’re planning themselves..."

85 comments:

Anonymous said...: I liked the one of Rep. Carol Shea-Porter having one of her constituents removed by the police from her town hall meeting because he didn't have a gold ticket authorizing him to ask a question. (All the gold tickets were given to union members brought in for the occasion.) Real class act. Hope her opponent uses it in 2010.; 9/1/09, 9:49 AM
Big Mike said...: It's worth noting that Carol Shea-Porter was herself well-known for being loud and disruptive at town hall meetings, back in the day.

Now there's this.

Free speech for me, but never for thee, says the Liberal.; 9/1/09, 9:53 AM
Big Mike said...: I wonder how long it will be before our resident Liberals show up with their talking points from Daily Kos? I'm guessing NLT 10:15. Takers?; 9/1/09, 9:54 AM
froggyprager said...: "Deflect and not confront" this guy sounds reasonable to me, why should the opponents be the only voices heard?; 9/1/09, 9:54 AM
Largo said...: OT, but the other link on the same page at Instapundit is priceless!

wv: uloosta
obAnagram: Loot USA!; 9/1/09, 9:56 AM
Largo said...: And remember folks, to play this game you must use the first verification word that appears when composing your comment. Cheerypicking while using the preview is not allowed.

As you were. :); 9/1/09, 9:59 AM
Joan said...: why should the opponents be the only voices heard?

But HCAN's tactics of shouting down opponents insures that they will not be heard. Keeping up a chant until a questioner "takes his cookies and goes home" is stifling debate, not encouraging it.

Why is HCAN so afraid to let the questions be asked and answered?; 9/1/09, 10:00 AM
knox said...: How odd, to be instructed on how to conduct yourself and what to say.

But it seems the left has really got it down to a science--has for a while now, let's face it--and their supporters are up for it.

I came across a pdf for Americorps on dealing with the media. Choosing friendly reporters, contacting them every time you do a good deed, etc.

Can you imagine calling a reporter to let them know when you've done volunteer work or something like that? Just bizarre and creepy.; 9/1/09, 10:04 AM
bagoh20 said...: People may disagree about how health care should be delivered, but the methods used by the Democrats in this debate should be universally derided. Even if you support universal coverage, do you really want your government to insult a majority of concerned citizen, to have hired thugs, to restrict debate, and to have a willing media assist it. Can you imagine your anger if this was Republicans pushing a Bush plan that you found totally antithetical to your interests and values and that would affect your life personally and directly.

It is paramount that we insist on a free and fair debate regardless of where it takes us. The alternative is something none of us will like.; 9/1/09, 10:05 AM
Dark Eden said...: " "Deflect and not confront" this guy sounds reasonable to me, why should the opponents be the only voices heard? "

Why should HCAN be the only voice heard?

You seem terribly bothered by people against socialized medicine asking questions, but you seem totally okay with people for it using tactics to silence the other side.; 9/1/09, 10:06 AM
Henry said...: Hearing and being heard really isn't the issue. Shouting and being loud is. Both sides win. Or lose.; 9/1/09, 10:11 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I wonder how long it will be before our resident Liberals show up with their talking points from Daily Kos? I'm guessing NLT 10:15. Takers?

Well I'll sum it up and save them the time:

garage mahal: LOL!

AlphaLiberal Are you aware of the massive increase in right-wing militia groups infiltrating the townhalls and beating people up? No I don't have proof, quit asking me to do your own research.

MichaeloldsonWhinebitchwhinebitch. Typical right wing drivel.

hdhouse wooofooo! hey the reichwing is out again maken stuph up again...hey is mamabear from teh norther tundra leading the charge!? mush you huskies, mush we have wolves to shoot

ya'betcha!

I think that about covers it.; 9/1/09, 10:18 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Deflect and not confront" this guy sounds reasonable to me, why should the opponents be the only voices heard?

First of all these are TOWN HALL meetings that are supposed to represent the elected official meeting with his or her contstituants.

You know. The people who vote in the district???? Not a bunch of paid outside agitators whose only aim is to interfere with the ability of the people who ACTUALLY VOTE for the official to get their opinions heard.

The Representatives holding these TOWN HALL meetings better remember this. Who is really going to be voting for or against them in the up coming election????? Clue. Not the paid organizers who have moved on to the next meeting to suppress opinion.

Even the people who voted for these worthless pieces of shit, will remember that the official is NOT even listening to the people of his/her district and is actively thwarting the process.

There constituents may be a bunch of yahoos in the eyes of the elitist politicians, but the yahoos have long memories.

I hope they all burn in Hell.

WV = FLING what the people will soon be doing to the corrupt politicians. Fling them out of office.; 9/1/09, 10:19 AM
knox said...: hoosier and garage: lmao; 9/1/09, 10:23 AM
bagoh20 said...: Hoosier,
You took all their first 20 posts. They are now researching frantically for something else, but...; 9/1/09, 10:23 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Hoosier forgot L Lee.

Alhouse Hillbillies!!! Red meat.; 9/1/09, 10:25 AM
Darcy said...: Hi, garage! :); 9/1/09, 10:25 AM
garage mahal said...: Darcy!

*perk*; 9/1/09, 10:31 AM
Republican said...: I have yet to hear any of the politicians explain how they believe it's productive to have organized goon-squads shouting down dissenters.

It's reprehensible that they are allowing it to happen at forums being held in search of opinions.; 9/1/09, 10:32 AM
traditionalguy said...: Claiming the propaganda spotlight is an artform. Just ask NBC and ABC master at that performance art.; 9/1/09, 10:32 AM
knox said...: Hearing and being heard really isn't the issue. Shouting and being loud is. Both sides win. Or lose.

Henry, with all due respect, if people hadn't gone completely apeshit over this, the democrats would have shoved it through long ago. Unread. Un-paid-for.

I'm of two minds: part of me says "hooray, that's America, let's go at it!"; part of me wishes there wasn't such a divide.

But this is the biggest domestic issue that directly risks our liberty that I can think of (except for the income tax. And the thousands of other little taxes and fees that are steadily bleeding us dry for stuff we don't want in the first place. I digress, sorry...)

Anyhoo, in this case, an uproar was necessary: if for no other reason than, just to bypass a media who refuses to even question Obama. Our representatives were asleep at the wheel. I don't know how many of them even believe they work for us anymore. They absolutely needed the crap scared out of them.; 9/1/09, 10:33 AM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Garage plays well with others. Are you sure you are a lib? :)

wv = ugeria; 9/1/09, 10:34 AM
knox said...: forgive extra comma; 9/1/09, 10:38 AM
traditionalguy said...: Progressive Ethics 101: Win at all costs. It's our meeting and we cannot let the unpaid extras steal talking parts and camera time.; 9/1/09, 10:41 AM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Henry, with all due respect, if people hadn't gone completely apeshit over this, the democrats would have shoved it through long ago.

Well I for one am keeping an eye on cap and tax because in my humble opinion, that is going to be the real nation killer should there actually be enough morons in the Senate to actually pass this nightmare of a bill. The conspiratorialist in me keeps thinking this health care nonsense is a rope a dope so they can slip this under the radar.

I think there are plenty on the left who would gladly trade 47 million uninsured to save the planet for unicorns.; 9/1/09, 10:44 AM
Chip Ahoy said...: w.v. [St. Ionet], by the saints of assemblage, must he be so obvious?

The tea parties I attended, to practice my crowd-photographing skills, where tea-baggers were tea-bagging it all over the place, dangling their tea bags right in front each others' faces and over their heads, hanging from strings stapled to their hand-drawn signs and placards, the speakers there too instructed the crowd on how to behave. They insisted on not being unruly -- to keep their tea-baging quiet, as it were. Alas, the days were still cold then, and my own tea bag was the Celestial® sort with no string or tab to depend.

But those were tea-bagging parties and not health-care protests, different entities entirely.; 9/1/09, 10:45 AM
Beth said...: So the left disrupts, too. Shame on these folks, along with the also-organized right, just as determined to shout down what they don't like.

But they're defending us from death panels, so who am I to hold them to any standards?; 9/1/09, 10:49 AM
Darcy said...: Tea party protests are quite a bit different from townhall conversations with your elected representative. I don't think anyone but the representative's constituents should be asking questions at these.

Thank goodness for the Tea Party people, though. I love the name of this grass roots effort (where many elected Republicans have been booed when they've tried to partake, by the way) because it does scream freedom in so many ways for me.

Sadly, the vulgar term "teabaggers" is now widely used, even in the MSM. How lovely.; 9/1/09, 10:54 AM
froggyprager said...: Joan & Dust Bunny Queen - This person from HCAN is organizing people (we don't know if they live in the district) to attend the meeting and they are prepareing to respond if and when the people opposing health care reform start screaming and chanting and disrupting the dialouge. I did not hear him tell the people to shout down peaceful people respectfully making their points and having a dialogue with the elected rep.; 9/1/09, 10:55 AM
exhelodrvr1 said...: "Remember, what they accuse their opponents of is usually what they’re planning themselves . . ."

That also seems to apply to most of the people who accuse others of racism.; 9/1/09, 10:57 AM
Bissage said...: What would Kliban say? LINK.; 9/1/09, 11:02 AM
Beth said...: "Remember, what they accuse their opponents of is usually what they’re planning themselves . . ."

Oh no! Pogo's a closet communist!

And Rush Limbaugh's a mohel!

And apparently PeeWee Herman is a brilliant political theorist.; 9/1/09, 11:04 AM
knox said...: Thank goodness for the Tea Party people, though. I love the name of this grass roots effort (where many elected Republicans have been booed when they've tried to partake, by the way) because it does scream freedom in so many ways for me.

Yes! So many on the left are against the tea parties and ridicule them... not realizing that the protesters are just as pissed at Rs as Ds.; 9/1/09, 11:04 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: This person from HCAN is organizing people (we don't know if they live in the district) to attend the meeting

By and large these Democrat paid organized groups are being bussed in from areas outside of the District. There are many videos of it and documented instances. This tactic only started when it became apparent that the "real voters" in the District were not going to to take Obama's directive to "JUST SHUT UP".

Therefore, they must be shouted down, have their home made signs blocked and even forcibly removed from the Town Hall.

The Town Halls are for voters and constituents. NOT for outside agitators and Union Thugs who have a vested ($$$$$$$) interest in socialized medicine.

If the Representatives really cared, and it is obvious that they don't, they would not allow professional paid agitators to disrupt their Town Hall meetings. They should allow the give and take to be from those people who have skin in the game (so to speak)

Now a protest in a public place that consists of the general public (not a Town Hall) that is a different story. Agitate all you want. Get organized all you want. But to directly interfere between the voters and their elected representative is un democratic. But then again.....we know that the organizers aren't for Democracy, are they? They are socialists who want to destroy the democratic process.; 9/1/09, 11:04 AM
Beth said...: Bissage - excellent.; 9/1/09, 11:05 AM
Kirk Parker said...: Republican,

What on earth makes you think any of the Reps are genuinely engaged in a "search of opinions"?

knox,

I will gladly forgive all the extra commas you can dish out, but not, NOT that ghastly barbarism "anyhoo" (or any of its spelling variants.) Just sayin'.; 9/1/09, 11:07 AM
Anonymous said...: I did not hear him tell the people to shout down peaceful people respectfully making their points and having a dialogue with the elected rep.

The video begins with the guy saying if someone stands up to ask a question, and HCAN members are in the area, then the HCAN members need to stand up and interrupt by chanting.

This is a clear attempt to stop discussion instead of responding to the unruly.; 9/1/09, 11:20 AM
Christy said...: Froggy, dear, watch the video again. The organizer clearly says "if they stand up and start asking questions, [you] ...stand up and start chanting
'health care now' ... [until] they get frustrated and go away." You are the one bringing screaming and disruptive behavior into the scenario. You are the one assuming screaming and disruptive behavior. Why is that? Is your personal experience of much screaming and bad behavior? Sweetie, is that how people who disagree with you treat you? I'm so sorry to hear that. Makes life unbearable, I know. Or is that how you usually get your way? Trust me on this, life is much better if you find better techniques for getting what you want.

DBQ, The disdain of elected officials for constituents confuses me. Our elected officials are not stupid, despite the evidence. What do they know that we don't? What process is in place that allows an elected official to disregard the voters of his or her district? Could it be a new and improved ACORN? Now that the Chicago machine has taken over the country, are representatives so secure in their tenure?; 9/1/09, 11:26 AM
Chase said...: Even when I don't agree with her, I like to read everything that Beth writes. I wish she would comment more often.

And garage, you make me laugh man. Thank you.

You too Hoosier. And Bissage

Smiling through the midmorning . . .; 9/1/09, 11:42 AM
Henry said...: Knox, I'm not saying I'm against shouting and being loud.

True, I sound a bit cynical, but it is the fact of the protest that's important, not the informational delivery.

The problem for health care supporters is that they've shown up too late to change that fact, no matter how loud their shouting, nor how big their signs.

Which I'm happy about, btw.; 9/1/09, 11:55 AM
Bissage said...: (1) Thanks, Beth, but the Holy Word is that of Kliban. I am naught but His humble servant upon this Earth.

(2) Thanks Chase and you’re very welcome. All I ask in return is you pay it forward.; 9/1/09, 12:03 PM
froggyprager said...: Christy - "You are the one assuming screaming and disruptive behavior. Why is that? Is your personal experience of much screaming and bad behavior?" the reason that health care reform supporters are expecting to find screaming and disruptive behavior is because it has been going on across the country at these town hall meetings and it has been widely reported. Those doing the screaming have been those opposed to the plans and Obama.

Yes, I hear that this guy is suggesting this approach to anyone asking a question but I do not think that this has been a broadly used approach at these events by those supporting reform plans.; 9/1/09, 12:06 PM
LouisAntoine said...: bagoh20 said: "Can you imagine your anger if this was Republicans pushing a Bush plan that you found totally antithetical to your interests and values and that would affect your life personally and directly."

I'm banging, I'm just slamming my head against the wall. And screaming. You really are clueless.

It was called... THE WAR IN IRAQ. Dumbass. And; 9/1/09, 12:08 PM
The Drill SGT said...: General contacts:

Health Care for America Now
1825 K Street NW
Suite 400
Washington, DC 20006
---------------------------

Google the address to see how many other "grassroots" groups are operated out of these lobbyist offices.

----------------
as for HCAN, the steering committee says it all:

Our Steering Committee includes: ACORN, AFL-CIO, AFSCME, AFT, Americans United for Change, Campaign for America’s Future, Center for American Progress Action Fund, Campaign for Community Change, Children’s Defense Fund Action Council, Communications Workers of America, International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace & Agricultural Implement Workers of America (UAW), MoveOn.org, NAACP, National Council of La Raza, National Education Association, National Women’s Law Center, SEIU, UFCW, USAction, Women’s Voices, Women’s Vote and Working America.; 9/1/09, 12:16 PM
Larry J said...: The Representatives holding these TOWN HALL meetings better remember this. Who is really going to be voting for or against them in the up coming election????? Clue. Not the paid organizers who have moved on to the next meeting to suppress opinion.

Given ACORN's questionable activities with voter registration and a compliant Justice Department willing to look the other way, I wouldn't be so sure the liberal legislators have anything to fear from the people who actually live in their districts. I suspect the fix is in.; 9/1/09, 12:22 PM
Shanna said...: Can you imagine calling a reporter to let them know when you've done volunteer work or something like that? Just bizarre and creepy.

I had a co-worker once who wrote little articles for his hometown paper about all the awesome things he was doing in Washington D.C. and I was thought it was strange. I never imagined doing something like that, but maybe that’s what you do if you want to get your name out there? Or if you give a damn what other people think of you. I don’t know. I never imagine what I’m doing is of much interest to anyone beyond my immediate family.

The Americorp thing is especially weird..don't they get paid to do good works? If so, it's no longer impressive, it's just your job.; 9/1/09, 12:31 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: I think an Americorp teacher makes $40-$45K. So volunteering can be a well-paying career :); 9/1/09, 12:39 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: I know this is somewhat verboten to mention this, but it sure does remind me a bit of Hitler's Sturmabteilung (SA) ("brown shirts") and Benito Mussolini's camicie nere, CCNN, or squadrist ("black shirts") (also used by the British Union of Fascists). But the Nazis and Fascists aren't the only ones who have utilized this technique. We have seen it a bit with the communists, and, most recently, with the hired thugs in Iran brought in from the country and the Palestinian camps to forcibly quell the unrest from the recent elections.

It is really an ugly precedent that they seem to be trying to follow.; 9/1/09, 12:50 PM
LonewackoDotCom said...: HCAN, Instapundit, what's the real difference? For those interested, here are links to my posts about Glenn Reynolds, including one in which he promoted giving politicians bunny ears behind their back and another in which he promoted intimidating politicians.

If anyone wants to rise above the HCAN/Instapundit level:
1. Join into groups.
2. Find one (1) smart person who's familiar with debating.
3. Have that person get into an impromptu debate with a politician. Not a rant, not an open-ended question, but an actual debate designed to show how the politician is wrong.
4. Upload video of it to Youtube.

If you do that, you'll help raise the level of debate in the U.S., undercut the MSM, and - if the video's really good - maybe even get a link from Drudge.; 9/1/09, 12:53 PM
Adrian said...: knox said...

"How odd, to be instructed on how to conduct yourself and what to say."

Yes, it really is like we are living in different worlds, I could never be that person who stands there and listens intently to the union organizer's instructions. So weird, so foreign to my upbringing and just, well, my nature. My favorite example is when the main leftist group at my college held a big "Civil Disobedience Training" session. The advertisements exhorted "rebels" to "Come practice non-violent street tactics!" Because, you know, nothing like being trained in disobedience, sigh...; 9/1/09, 12:55 PM
Chennaul said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/1/09, 1:18 PM
KCFleming said...: Free citizens instinctively recoil from these tactics.

This obstructionist strategy is unashamedly Stalinist, fascist, and Jacobin in origin.

And it is clear this thuggery will lead, where tried, to violence (it already has, where union thugs beat up an older black man). This socialist revolution may yet be successful, but it won't be a bloodless coup. No, there will be blood.

Of course, that is there intent. 40 years since the Chicago Democratic convention, the left now owns those baby blue helmets. So they foment a reaction; they pray for days of rage.

But I think they don't have any idea what they will have set loose, once this is begun. And I don't think the average lefty has the stomach for the kind of fight they have started.

If they proceed this way, there will be a replay of the 1970s, but roles reversed. They ought to chew on that for awhile.

But they won't, for they can taste victory, and it makes them blind to all that comes after.

Lonewacko, it's far too late for all that. It would have been helpful in 1930 maybe.; 9/1/09, 1:28 PM
Chennaul said...: froggyprager-

I did not hear him tell the people to shout down peaceful people respectfully making their points and having a dialogue with the elected rep.

Go back and listen again.

Gateway Pundit even wrote it out-

Mr. Democrat Rabble Rouser Director says to his pupils-

So when they ask their question...; 9/1/09, 1:42 PM
Big Mike said...: But they're defending us from death panels, so who am I to hold them to any standards?

Beth, I started to write that some day you will thank us for what we're doing, but now that I think of it, you won't. Not because you're an ingrate (at least not necessarily), but if our side succeeds on health care you won't have a discussion with your doctor that goes something along the lines of you're old, you have no children, and under the guidelines from the Health Benefits Advisory Committee you are only priority level 3 for surgery, so the earliest you can be scheduled is 6 months from now, but of course by then the tumor will be inoperable.

That's what happens elsewhere. It isn't going to happen here. If that bothers you, I'm not even remotely sorry.; 9/1/09, 2:45 PM
LouisAntoine said...: This crap about union thugs beating up a black man again. Never happened. A lie. A lie! The only brownshirts are in your piddling little minds.

The terrible march of conservative paranoia and self-victimization continues.; 9/1/09, 2:51 PM
LouisAntoine said...: What would these republican nihilist fools do if Obama decided to launch a preemptive war on some country for specious reasons? Crap a brick?

In other countries, doctors make house calls and prescriptions cost very little. Nightmarish.; 9/1/09, 2:54 PM
KCFleming said...: Montagne Montaigne has his Stalinesque airbrush at the ready!

Two men were arrested for misdemeanor assault for allegedly punching, pushing and holding a man who was handing out American flags and fliers outside the school.
"Kenneth Gladney, 38, an activist from St. Louis who believes in a no-tax stance, said he was attacked by some of those arrested as he handed out yellow flags with "Don't tread on me" printed on them. He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room on Thursday night at St. John's Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was awaiting treatment for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face.

"It just seems there's no freedom of speech without being attacked," Gladney said. On Friday, he said he had been hired by the Tea Party folks to hand out the flags. He said he considers himself more of an independent than a conservative and added: "I was attacked for something I believe in.""; 9/1/09, 2:57 PM
LouisAntoine said...: Oh shut up. It's on tape. Anyone can watch it. Anyone can see nothing approaching the description "union thugs beat up a black man" occurs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXBOgPCh9w

You are sick.; 9/1/09, 3:06 PM
Big Mike said...: @Monty, 'fraid it did happen. Sorry 'bout that.

It was a fair fight according to Democrat eyewitnesses. Only four against one. Gladney started it by hitting the SEIU guy right in the knuckles with his nose, and after Gladney was knocked down he kicked the SEIU guy right in the toe with the small of his back.; 9/1/09, 3:12 PM
LouisAntoine said...: Do you not have the same eyeballs as me? It's a video. I see a bunch of paunchy middle aged guys getting into a bitchy little tiff. One "thug" is an overweight black woman with a cane. The so-called victim walks around and smiles after his savage beating.

This is all you got to demonstrate the rapid advance of stalinnaziislamocalism due to Hussein Obama's mind control orders??? c'mon, there's got to be a better propaganda case... think Lusitania, or the Alamo. Something your troops can really get behind. This is weak tea.; 9/1/09, 3:19 PM
Roger J. said...: Of course it never happened--oceania has always been at war with east asia.; 9/1/09, 3:21 PM
Big Mike said...: @Monty, don't you bother to look at clips before you post the link? I realize that you're unusually lazy, but this takes sloth to a new depth.

If you had bothered to follow the link you'd see that it clearly is the end of a fight, and there is a black man lying on the ground. One of the white men in a dark T-shirt and jeans tries to stomp on the black man's groin, but misses and stumbles slightly. By then a bunch of people, including the man in the white shirt, have intervened and cops are on the way.

I grew up in a quarry town, and I know what the end of a fight looks like. Hint for Monty and the rest of the trolls. The women are screaming and the men are hollering about something. And none of the thugs is trying to pretend that anything happened other than a 4 against 1 fight, with them on the side of the 4.; 9/1/09, 3:23 PM
LouisAntoine said...: Sorry, if you think that looks like a fight, you have never been in a fight.

Conservatives have become awfully prissy since January.; 9/1/09, 3:25 PM
LouisAntoine said...: You also don't seem to know who Gladney is. Hint: it's not the guy in the white pants and blue shirt who is on the ground.; 9/1/09, 3:26 PM
Roger J. said...: This whole affair sounds like a terrible miscarriage of justice if two men were arrested for misdemeanor assault for a crime they did not commit--I am sure the legal process can sort it out and determine the truth.; 9/1/09, 3:38 PM
LouisAntoine said...: Whatever it is, Roger J., equating this disordered little flaring of tempers and fists to some kind of organized repression from "union thugs" as I've seen over and over again is a complete distortion to feed the current conservative victimization complex. It's unbecoming.; 9/1/09, 3:45 PM
Beth said...: Thanks, Chase. That's good company you put me in; I needed the smile today.; 9/1/09, 3:47 PM
Beth said...: AJ - Teach for America teachers probably make that as well, and I assume it's subsidized by the organization. But it's not really a career in that they move on in a couple of years.

And that's a problem. We have a bunch of them here in NOLA post-levee failure, and while they're certainly energetic and idealistic, they're inexperienced and they have no commitment to the long-term improvement of our schools. They end up in the worst schools, where students would do much better under experienced teachers who can manage instruction and discipline at all once. And since the contract with TFA saves local school entities money, these temporary missionaries end up in the classrooms and local teachers, with roots in the community and experience in their fields, are out. I don't see the benefit in that.

WV: sanarac. Close enough to sazarac to make me wish I wasn't teaching till 10 pm.; 9/1/09, 3:58 PM
garage mahal said...: Oh shut up. It's on tape. Anyone can watch it. Anyone can see nothing approaching the description "union thugs beat up a black man" occurs..

That clip of not getting beat up had the ring blogosphere quivering solid for a week. And the guy is out protesting against healthcare while not having healthcare. LOL; 9/1/09, 4:07 PM
Beth said...: Big Mike,

You don't actually know what I do or don't support in terms of changes to our current health care providor system. I'm still trying to understand the options, so I haven't advocated for anything specific. There are problems I am fairly certain I want to see fixed, or improved upon: pre-existing condition limitations; portability; the problems self-employed people have in getting affordable plans; competition across state lines, for instance.

And it won't bother me any less to be turned down for payment for said tumor by whatever insurance I have at the time than it will to be put on a waiting list by the gummint. It's not only socialized health care systems That restrict treatment options. I want to know more about allowing a public option that individuals can supplement with private insurance.

It's good that a quick, unread, uncritique plan has not gone to a vote. This needs lots and lots of discussion, and our media is among those letting us down. I'd like to see some real analysis, not politics, on the talking head shows. That's missing. It's been derailed by Death Panels! and We need change now! hysterics on both sides.; 9/1/09, 4:10 PM
garage mahal said...: ring = right wing; 9/1/09, 4:10 PM
KCFleming said...: ring ring = one of those chinese pandas

ring ring ring = better answer that; 9/1/09, 4:56 PM
KCFleming said...: " I'd like to see some real analysis, not politics, on the talking head shows. That's missing. "

Beth, that sort of analysis will never take place, not in government, leastways. Indeed, political questions are never answered by issue analysis, but by appeals to constituencies.

Talking head shows are only mirrors for that. Buckley could have such a convo; few today can, if any.

People who think they can know more about healthcare than the market knows are determined to fail. This issue doesn't need a lot of smart people imagining the bright shiny city of Health and how to build it (as if those smart guys haven't already mucked things up badly enough), it needs to answer only how to unchain the forces of individual choice, and focus on providing for them that ain't got.

Leave the rest of us the hell alone.; 9/1/09, 5:04 PM
Big Mike said...: @Beth, I'm afraid Pogo is right. The closest I've seen to a balanced discussion of any subject was on Fox News, and even there people are yelling and speaking at each other (and I mean "at" and not "to") in talking points. Who would you pick to conduct an even-handed discussion of the healthcare bills from the left side of the MSM spectrum? Keith Olbermann?

It's time to apply logic. The Baby Boomers are going to be retiring soon (and some already have retired) and instead of feeding taxes into the system we will be consumers of government benefits. And there's been hardly anything set aside for us. The only solution is to ration health care by age. The folks in their 70's and 80's have correctly figured out that they'll suffer too, so seniors are even more strongly opposed than Republicans and independents.

And as I recollect something you said before, you're a Boomer too.; 9/1/09, 5:21 PM
Beth said...: Tail end of the boomers - 1960. I'll get to sit on the Death Panel for a year or two before I have to appear before it.; 9/1/09, 5:31 PM
KCFleming said...: I'm bringing up the boomer rear too. I always wore hand-me-downs as a kid. I won't enjoy the SSI-Medicare-Healthcare hand-me-down near as much.

Our age group and those younger will no doubt tire of being the ashtray for the fag ends of boomer excess.; 9/1/09, 5:44 PM
section9 said...: I hope I get Professor Althouse on MY Death Panel.

Then, when I get turned down for my life-saving cancer operation, at least I'll know that it was fair. Ann is always fair to everyone she meets!

Too bad, Montaigne. Mark Levin is on your Death Panel. Sucks to be you.; 9/1/09, 7:54 PM
Skipper50 said...: Remember, it's "their meeting". You're just an intruder.; 9/1/09, 8:06 PM
Synova said...: I think that asking for ID's at the door and ONLY letting in residents would be a grand plan.

Asking for the ID because someone disagrees with you... not so much.

But limiting attendees to people who vote in that district and asking them to prove it? Yes, I'd go for that.; 9/1/09, 8:31 PM
The Drill SGT said...: beth said...WV: sanarac. Close enough to sazarac to make me wish I wasn't teaching till 10 pm.

or an anagram for Saranac.

Both a Lake and a Brewery in upstate NY; 9/1/09, 8:34 PM
JAL said...: Beth And it won't bother me any less to be turned down for payment for said tumor by whatever insurance I have at the time than it will to be put on a waiting list by the gummint.

Do you have evidence that insurance companies are refusing cancer sx / tx for their customers?

There is evidence from those enlightened countries which have government controlled health care that it happens there.; 9/1/09, 10:23 PM
bagoh20 said...: "Montagne Montaigne said...

bagoh20 said: "Can you imagine your anger if this was Republicans pushing a Bush plan that you found totally antithetical to your interests and values and that would affect your life personally and directly."

I'm banging, I'm just slamming my head against the wall. And screaming. You really are clueless.

It was called... THE WAR IN IRAQ. Dumbass. And
"

And you bitched and protested, but your congress people did not call you a mob or Nazis or hire thugs to fight you in the streets or have the media constantly disparage you with cute little vulgar names did they?

But your side can't handle disagreement or free speech And the lovely personal attack on me is perfectly in character with your side.; 9/2/09, 12:05 AM
Largo said...: A point for The Drill SGT.

wv: CHYPEDI
anagram: HYPED--

I could only find a word out of five of the letters (they just happened to be in order).

New Rule: for any wv in a comment thread, the point goes to whoever makes the longest anagram of it (i.e. one using as many letters as one can -- ideally, all).

Rules for ties to be determined.

As you were.; 9/2/09, 4:17 AM
LouisAntoine said...: no bago, they called us traitors, communists and unamerican and the police arrested us and put us in holding pens for days without charges.

and again, the only thugs beating people up are in your fevered, Obama-hating brain.

free speech is not in question; no one is preventing any of the deluded, shrill liars from speaking. but you can expect people to yell back in response the unending torrent of lies and swill that passes for criticism of health care reform among your ilk.; 9/2/09, 8:23 AM
Daniel12 said...: Whatever, everyone's massively hypocritical. No one cares about shouting down the side they disagree with. And no one calls their own side on its bullshit. For instance, where are the teabaggers protesting Michael Steele's call for never, ever, ever touching any Medicare benefits ever?

Hypocrisy screaming is boring. And lazy. And a complete self-reflection FAIL. Unless you're going to actually start thinking about your own.

Here, I'll start:

I got all worked up about teabaggers screaming at town hall meetings. Yet my side doing it doesn't bother me so much. Why? BECAUSE I'M A HYPOCRITE, and think the teabaggers deserve it!! So fine, I'm going to try to be pissed off at this, because I know it's douchy not to be.

Your turn.; 9/2/09, 12:52 PM

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