April 15, 2009

"Of all the debates Sullivan has been embroiled in, his collision with the gay left is the hardest to reconstruct..."

"... because the gay-rights debate has been transformed in the two decades since, not least by his own writing."

From a long article about Andrew Sullivan, a good recounting of this part of his story, which if you don't like Sullivan or understand why I read him, you need to know:
Yet Sullivan wrote the first major article in America calling for gay people to be given the right to marry—and he was savaged by other gays. His talks were picketed by a group called the Lesbian Avengers, who waved signs with Sullivan’s head in the crosshairs of a gun. In gay bars he was denounced as a “collaborator” and physically attacked. He was anathemised by mainstream gay-rights organisations, who refused to engage with him. Why?

The Village Voice writer Richard Goldstein spoke for this tendency when he claimed that Sullivan was “promoting the bargain of assimilation. But this deal comes with a price. It requires gays to maintain the illusion that we’re just like straights… [But] we were interested in messing with the codes of sexuality.” By advocating marriage, Sullivan was opting into the very system gay people should destroy. He was just “Rush Limbaugh with monster pecs,” a self-hater who “would solve the faggot problem by urging gay men not to act like fags”.

Today, marriage is the Number One demand of the gay-rights movement. So why was Sullivan demonised for being the first to articulate it? He says now, haltingly: “It was the middle of a plague, we were all dying, and here’s this brash British guy who’s a Catholic and right-winger talking about something unfamiliar, that challenges their assumptions… [But] I was too narcissistic to realise that it wasn’t about me.”
If you happened to be gay back then, you were supposed to join the left and contribute to the enterprise of smashing conventions. Now, I think there still is an undercurrent of hating heterosexuals out there, and I often feel it coming from Andrew Sullivan, but I'm not going to elaborate on that now.

ADDED: Sullivan links, quotes my last sentence, and says:
Please do. You can't throw that out there with no back-up. I'm sorry if my perhaps uncharitable snark about her impending marriage offended her. Probably not my best moment. But the notion that I somehow "hate heterosexuals" is so nutty, not to say meaningless, that I don't know how to respond. I hate 97 percent of humanity? I hate my mum and dad and brother and sister? I hate my co-workers? Just because I think Sarah Palin is a whack-job makes me a heterophobe? Please, Ann. You don't campaign for twenty years to enter a heterosexual institution because you hate heterosexuals. You don't argue for social integration of gays and straights because you hate straights. You don't write a book urging that sexual orientation cease to be a defining social divide if you are a gay separatist. And it takes Goldstein-level dishonesty to say as much.
Well, Sullivan obviously knows what is giving me the feeling of heterophobia coming from him. His weird obsession with Sarah Palin's pregnancy and his reaction to my engagement. He never answered my question "what part of my experience deserves 'OMFG.'" He said:
And I'm all in favor of the right of straight bloggers to marry their straight commenters. It's a civil right. And more than I am currently allowed after living with my husband for almost five years.
And my response was:
This isn't about legal rights. This is about how individuals treat each other, and I want to know why you disrespected me. Explain why you linked to Pandagon's scurrilous OMFG, which, as you know, means "Oh, my fucking God." Is that the way you mean to speak to me? Is that the way you talk about God?
I never saw an answer to that. And as I said in this other post, I do not see how his reaction to me fits with his interest in extending marriage to gay couples:
I too think that Sullivan's reaction to me was detrimental to the cause of same-sex marriage (for which he has fought so admirably). Obviously, he had to have thought he was serving his cause by asserting that his 5-year relationship deserved more respect than mine, but he has a tragic blind spot. He was acting as though it's perfectly fine to trash someone else's relationship because it strikes you at a gut level as wrong. But that's how millions of people feel about his relationship! If we start arguing in that emotional mode, your cause is doomed.
I think Sullivan's reaction is probably complicated. He wants gay relationships to be accepted and given equal respect, and he seems angry that it hasn't happened yet. He struck out at me with derision and contempt and I felt the hostility. He couldn't explain it then, and he doesn't explain it now.

One can be outraged at an exclusion and still dislike the people who are included. For example, I would be outraged by a private club that barred women from membership but might simultaneously hate the men who actually were members. I'd want the right to join even if I didn't want to join, because I disapprove of the discrimination.

I know Sullivan takes strong positions and stands his ground, and I don't really expect him to do this, but I think it would be cool if he would openly explore what might be complex feelings about heterosexuals — especially women.

AND: "I'm sorry if my perhaps uncharitable snark about her impending marriage offended her" = a classic nonapology.

249 comments:

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Palladian said...

Aha! I think Sarah Palin's pussy has ahold of the leg of yet another impotent male! Watch out for those teeth, Conrad!

Michael Haz said...

Broken Yogi said: If anyone is jealous here, it's Althouse, who can't comprehend why this cheesy little fag gets all the attention, and the only way she gets noticed is by marrying a blog commenter.You're Andrew Sullivan, aren't you? Come on, fess up.

Broken Yogi said...

Elcubanito wrote:

"Yogi, if what you say is true, how do you explain the "rap/bling culture"? A culture based on money making and ostentation, not on modesty and restrain."

My impression would be that the "rap/bling" and "gospel/religious" subcultures within the black community haven't got much intersection, nor does the one much approve of the other. And yet both tend to be politically supportive of the Democrat/liberal agenda, if for somewhat different reasons, though civil rights issues certainly brings them together.

"And what about the thousands of people that come to this country from some countries in Latin America so that they can freely be whom they actually are, i.e. come out of the closet?"

I would guess that's a pretty small proportion of the immigrant latino population. But then again, I'm not the one who claimed that latinos are anti-gay. If you have a beef with that, talk to Revenant.

Also, where did you get the idea that I claim to speak in your name? Is everyone here at this blog simply insane?

Palladian said...

"You're Andrew Sullivan, aren't you? Come on, fess up."

No, even Andrew is a slightly clearer thinker and cleverer writer than Conrad here.

Broken Yogi said...

Palladian,

You're too much, really. Now Sarah's "pussy" is in play? This is some pretty great riffing you're up to. Am I supposed to be thinking sexy Sarah is rubbing her groin against my leg, or is it a reference to Trig's afterbrith? And does Sarah really have teeth in her pussy? Thank God I'm now impotent, or this might turn me on in some strange way.

Broken Yogi said...

Palladian,

If you must know, I'm hiding from you. I get the feeling I'm going to have to take out a restraining order pretty soon.

blogging cockroach said...

you know bedbugs are supposed to be crazy
but every one i ve met is a model of sanity
compared to the pailn troofers out there
how about if i tell you the reason sarah palin
didn t show her pregnancy is because she s really
a cockroach in disguise
the whole family are a species of giant
northern cockroaches who put on
human disguises to get ahead
i mean you could be crawling around
looking for scraps in a bear cave
or you could be governor of alaska
a no brainer i m h o
anyway she just laid her eggs in a
back bedroom and the only one that
hatched became trig which if you
think about it is an insect kind of name
and why do you think she has her hair
piled up so high hmmm...
to hide the antennae
it s obvious things are not as they seem
now andrew sullivan is a less active sort
than us cockroaches constantly scurrying around
but he s also an insect in disguise
it s just that he s a caterpillar like
in alice in wonderland but i think he s
been putting too many funny herbs
in that hookah lately if you know what i mean

Kirk Parker said...

Palladian,

"Well, most of them."

Whew! I was gonna have to disagree with you, regarding the UN, but I see you left yourself an out.

"Is it possible to be not only unemployed but negatively employed?"

Heck, yeah! One of the previous programmers at my company was like that: every day he actually wrote code, he did the company serious damage.

Anonymous said...

"I'm sorry if my perhaps uncharitable snark about her impending marriage offended her"By including the qualifier "perhaps," Sullivan once again fails to take responsibility for his own writing.

Ryan Ringer said...

Oh for heaven's sake, Sullivan may be a bit rude sometimes, but this is hardly indicative of some deeper animus towards, of all categories, STRAIGHT PEOPLE (ie: pretty much every human being on the planet, by current estimates).

Revenant said...

I don't think you understand that the term "Christianist" that Sullivan uses refers not to people who are religious, but people whose politics is determined by their religion. Blacks and latinos tend to be religious, but they don't tend to make that the basis of their politics, as many white evangelicals are now prone to do.

Blacks and Hispanics are just as prone to make their religion the basis of their politics as white evangelicals are. I know Sullivan doesn't believe that, but you're talking about the one man in America who was surprised when George Bush endorsed the gay marriage amendment. He is nothing if not willfully blind to political reality.

former law student said...

If Sullivan hurt Althouse's feelings without meaning to -- wouldn't that make an apology even easier?

That whole "If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry" is a copout; it shows a lack of respect for other people's humanity.

In the professor's place I would cut him dead. The whole enfant terrible act is tired at his age.

The Crack Emcee said...

I've always said gay marriage was going to happen, but what I hate is the disingenuous discussion of gay behavior - yes, they have been subversive, and (as this post admits) a large part of the gay community not only hated the concept of marriage but went about destroying as many as they could - a subject not many (probably not even Sullivan) want to address. That, alone, is one (good) explanation for the reluctance to give gays what they want - now. They come across like babies having a tantrum when they've been busted acting up. And the desire to stifle any *real* debate on the issue is galling.

I guess I feel like, until they admit The Metachine Society was right and the Left Wing was wrong, they deserve what they (don't) get.

Or, put another way:

If they want a "struggle", fine, let 'em struggle.

Broken Yogi said...

"Blacks and Hispanics are just as prone to make their religion the basis of their politics as white evangelicals are."

I haven't seen much evidence of this. I'm sure as individuals there are some who vote this way, but there's little sign of organized political activity based on religious principles, nothing like has occurred among white evangelicals in the last few decades.

michael farris said...

"Althouse is always so eager to defend the rationales conservatives give for opposing marriage rights for gay couples"

Bingo. I've always had the impression that Althouse is not really pro SSM but prefers not to say so openly.

Revenant said...

I'm sure as individuals there are some who vote this way, but there's little sign of organized political activity based on religious principles, nothing like has occurred among white evangelicals in the last few decades.

Um, what? Black churches are at the center of black politics. They have been since at LEAST the 1940s. Did you think it was just a coincidence that so many civil rights leaders were pastors?

Broken Yogi said...

"Black churches are at the center of black politics. They have been since at LEAST the 1940s. Did you think it was just a coincidence that so many civil rights leaders were pastors?"

I see no evidence that religious ideology has driven black politics. It's worked the other way around. The Civil Rights movement used religion to accomplish its goals. I don't see any examples of black religion using politics to accomplish its goals.

David said...

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The Crack Emcee said...

Meade,

Okay so maybe Sullivan isn't heterophobic.

Maybe he just thinks it's okay to disrespect female people.

And God.
Since when are women special in the post-feminist era?

And there is no God.

Lame.

Ernesto Ariel Suárez said...

Broken Yogi, you have never worked or been friends with a significant number of black people. It shows. And for the proportion of gay people among the "hispanic" or "latino" populations (plural that we are not a damned homogeneous group of any sort, but many groups whom sometimes share a common language) it is actually very high compared to the rest of the population.

KCFleming said...

Geez, I remember posting that the left wing, feminists, and gays were all about 'smashing monogamy' until very recently, and then they discovered this huge right to marriage, and that anyone who disagreed about SSM now was a bigot.

And I remember being called a liar and bigot for pointing that out.

Effing lefties.
Deny their past all the time, change their tune when it suits them. Like arguing with a teenage girl with borderline personality disorder.

But they've won. Marriage is dying. The US is now socialist. God is considered an opiate. Terrorists are mere criminals. White = racist.

You won. Now shut up and go away.

Anonymous said...

To be honest, he was snarky about your relationship because it's quite open to ridicule. I'm very happy for you and that's wonderful that you're getting married ... but marrying a commenter on your blog is hardly a norm in our society and therefore leaves it wide open to mocking.

But be honest, do you not think that his relationship does have a bit more merit at this point? He's been dating and living with a man for five years while you just met someone in the comment section and got engaged ... how do you not see that? Why is that suddenly heterophobia or anti-female? Do you see the hypocrisy in your own accusations of his hypocrisy?

Come on, Ann, don't make this into something it isn't. He was just making a point that you can get married at the drop of the hat, while he cannot despite living with his partner for half a decade. I'd say it's a valid point.

Unknown said...

Come on Ann, you are marrying someone who comments on your blog, that is kinda of funny, have a sense of humor

td said...

Ann honey, maybe its just *you*......

Brendan D said...

I'm just curious: To those who are against gay marriage because you feel it will infringe upon your (or others') religious rights, what of those whose religion permits homosexual marriage? Are their rights not infringed by having the government dictate what does and does not constitute a marriage?

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

You underestimate the power of Fellatin' Palladian's logic! Sarah Palin's vagina is a magical, mystical auracle of infinite power, grace and wisdom and to pretend that it has any place in the medical history that she lied about is to betray a pathological hatred of women! This much we know. Kill all the gynecologists and replace them with Wiccan priests! Behold the moon in the Seventh House!

Whatever.

I remember the incredible misandry that was exposed when the public demanded to know whether allegations that Bill Clinton had Peyronie's disease were true. Oh wait! No I don't. I guess the man/woman-hatred hasn't come full circle. The sex wars were a facade. Perhaps some people really are just as delusional as they accuse others of being.

And oh yeah. What Joseph Hovsep said.

The stupid! It burns!

Frank said...

Ann Althouse writes:
I know Sullivan takes strong positions and stands his ground, and I don't really expect him to do this, but I think it would be cool if he would openly explore what might be complex feelings about heterosexuals — especially women.

Being a gay male, I don't interpret this as a hostile request. For many of us the commitment that we have to live as outsiders comes because of the realization that it would be wrong to marry a woman as society expects us to. It is wrong not because it would deprive us of anything, especially for those of us raised in religious traditions that prohibit homosexual contact, but because it would deprive you heterosexual women of a right to happiness we don't have.

The marriage debate has brought this experience to the forefront.

As for hating all or most heterosexuals, it's not really possible. Almost all of us come from heterosexual families. Chances are our best friends are heterosexual. I don't have the right to marry in my state, but I paid for the wedding of a wonderful young woman I know because her ungrateful father refused to help her.

OTOH, I find quite a few perfectly contemptible heteros commenting on this thread.

Frank said...

CrackEmcee,

You're just a different kind of racist. Your argument about gay people destroying marriages is just as racist as claims that black men only wanted to rape white women.

You're a hypocrite and a coward.

Kevin said...

Huh, did you say the same thing to Andrew Sullivan when you had the "pleasure" of reading all the venom he spewed at Sarah Palin and her family? Of course you didn't! That was part of the "pleasure" you experienced reading Andrew Sullivan all these years.Exactly. The disgusting filth and sleaze that Sullivan poured on Palin and her family - when Palin had done nothing to provoke it - have forever established Sullivan as a Grade A asshole. Nothing he writes after that can compensate for it. As far as I am concerned, he can take his hate back to Britain. I am a naturalized immigrant, and as far as I am concerned, he has abused this country and its citizens.

Howard said...

I read Sullivan's blog pretty regularly, and I find his obsession with the Palin family to be a bit disturbing. That said, I think he pretty clearly does not hate or have a problem with heterosexuals.

If there's anything connecting his comments on the Palins or Althouse's marriage, it's that straight people aren't perfect either. He definitely assumed too much about Althouse's relationship, but it wasn't hateful, it was just a surprised reaction to his (incorrect) perception of the situation. He even bothered to post a correction when he realized that it wasn't what he had thought it was.

It obviously wasn't true in this case, but the idea of a random commenter on a blog successfully proposing to its author is odd, but believable in this day and age. To someone who can't get legal recognition for their own stable, years-long relationship, it's not surprising that they might be a little annoyed with the preponderance of dysfunctional "traditional" marriages.

former law student said...

""Why is it not OK to ban gays from getting married, but OK to ban polygamy?"

Because it's a given to assume than any two people might be equal in their rights, but not to assume that two people together would be equal in their rights to one person.
"

I missed this one. The arguments favoring polygamy are stronger than the ones supporting same-sex marriage. The tradition of polygamy is much longer and more widespread than the institution of same-sex marriage. It is part and parcel of the Abrahamic faiths. Polyandry is practiced in India, Tibet, and Nepal. Wealthy Chinese men traditionally take more than one wife.

Even if there were no tradition or current practice of polygamy, the arguments for, say, polygyny are the same as for same-sex marriage: the right of a woman to have society recognize the relationship between her and the man she loves.

Rick and Gary said...

As a married homosexual man, I wouldn't necessarily dispute the various charges in these comments of misogyny, heterophobia, and general alienation among gays.

But I've watched these problems recede in over the last 20 years in lockstep with the normalization of our legal status and with general acceptance by society.

My guess is that gay marriage will continue this healthy process.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Yes, yes. Too true. Anyone who obsessively attacks or baits a proven liar who aspires to high public office with little experience, minimal interest in public affairs, complete ignorance of international affairs, of domestic policies, a record of taking the only city she's ever led into debt, who abuses her office to carry out a personal vendetta, who doesn't believe in answering to the media and the critics in her own party in the state she governs, who is connected to people who make threats on her behalf (which, in case you didn't know, is either an illegal act or, at the least, outside the powers of her office to do), is clearly deranged, misogynistic, hateful, an asshole, a noncomformist, a thorn in the eye of right-wing authoritarianism, a believer in participatory democracy and the responsibility of the citizenry to hold public officials to account, and many other clearly dangerous and reprehensible things.

Why don't you guys just amend the constitution already and redefine the republic as a monarchy? For fuck's sake!

I really see this misogyny meme going places. Every woman I know had really high regard for Palin. Except for the fact that they didn't.

Snowman said...

This tiff between Sullivan and Althouse seems entirely narcissistic.

I could care less how Ann picked her betrothed, and I don't understand why Sully cares about Ann's 'heterophobe' slander.

Let her have he silly opinion. Let him have a marriage. Done.

Anonymous said...

"No, it means you're an asshole, just like Andrew Sullivan."

Precisely my point. Calling Sullivan an ass for ridiculing someone else's love life is valid...and fair game. Calling him a heterophobe is just nonsensical.

Anonymous said...

"If they have nothing to hide, why don't they release their medical records? Why doesn't Barack Obama release his full medical records? Where's that birth certificate?"

That's a fair point. Obama should have released the original birth certificate, or explained why it doesn't exist. Palin should have released her medical records, as well. Sullivan's point was that the best way to make a scandal go away is to dispell it with facts. It seems that both Palin and Obama have something to hide when they decline to release documents.

The difference is, however, Obama doesn't seem to be hurting for lack of releasing his birth certificate, so he can survive the political hit (minor as it was). Palin, on the other hand, couldn't afford her silence. Sullivan's point was never about the pregnancy per se, but about the lost opportunity to prove it wrong by simply publishing the documents to prove them untrue.

Broken Yogi said...

ElcubanitoKC,

I'm not sure how anything about my personal history "shows" in the brief comments I've made here. But as it happens, I used to live in Spanish Harlem (104th and Columbus), sharing a flat with a gay, black couple. Not that it matters. We're talking about broad social trends, not personal experience. I'd like to know where you get your notion that gays represent a larger proportion of black and latino groups than they do of whites. Are you just pulling this out of your "personal experience"? And where on earth do you get the idea that I'm not allowed to comment on the politics and social mores of groups I'm not a member of, regardless of my "experience level" of that group?

Broken Yogi said...

"That's a fair point. Obama should have released the original birth certificate, or explained why it doesn't exist."

Actually, it's not a fair point. Original birth certificates, in Hawaii as in virtually every state, are kept in state records facilities and are never released. Certified copies are made by that agency, and that's what we all get when we need a copy of our birth certificates. So Obama has no power at all to release his original birth certificate, nor do you or I have that power over our own original birth certificates. Obama has released the certified copy he got from the official state or county records department, that's as good as he could do. As far as I know, to release the original would require passing a state law of some kind.

As for corroborating proof, a local newspaper notice from shortly after his birth announces his birth, 47 years ago. Hard to imagine the plot to install a foreign born muslim sleeper cell black man in the Presidency began that long ago.

John D said...

I skimmed through the comments and saw a reference to Obama's former pastor. The comments are inaccurate.

Obama, though against same-sex marriage, spent 20 years going to a church whose pastor performed same-sex commitment ceremonies. The denomination, United Church of Christ, is generally in favor of same-sex marriage. (For that matter, a Obama stated that he was in favor of same-sex marriage in one of his runs for the Illinois legislature.)

Broken Yogi said...

"The arguments favoring polygamy are stronger than the ones supporting same-sex marriage."

This would be true if we based our laws on tradition, rather than on the democratic principle of equal rights for all. Slavery has a long tradition to it as well, that doesn't mean we are going to legalize it, because it violates the basic principles of the democratic state - equal rights for all.

SSM advocates are merely arguing for the core principle of our democracy to be applied to our marriage laws. Which means that marriage laws should offer equal rights to all, regardless of their sex. Technically speaking, the issue isn't even homosexuality, it's whether the state has a right to discriminate against a man who choses to marry another man, rather than a woman. Clearly, it's an example of sex discrimination. We don't allow the law to institutionalize sexual discrimination in any other area that I know of. Striking down that institutionalized discrimination simply goes along with the basic democratic principle of equal rights under the law for all.

As for polygamy, that's an entirely separate issue, in that even if polygamy were to be legalized, SSM advocates would insist on the right to single sex polygamy, not just hetersexual polygamy. Otherwise, it would violate the principle of equal rights for all under the law. They are two very different principles.

FarRightDemocrat said...

The fact is, Sullivan savors his disrespect for Palin, Hillary Clinton and Pelosi - - never misses a chance to slam any of them, never has a nice word for any of them, and repeats with glee any rumor about them under the pretext of "I'm just reporting that there is a rumor and trying to determine the truth, not endorsing or spreading it". Imagine if a President Clinton or President Palin decided to "kick the can down the road" on "Don't Ask / Don't Tell" because they had "bigger fish to fry", or if they hadn't filed amicus briefs in any gay marriage case, or if they insisted that marriage is between a man and a woman. He'd go ballistic. But when Obama does those things? It's okay, 'cause he's not a girl.

Todd said...

Let's trace the logic here:

Andrew hates me.
I am heterosexual.
Therefore, Andrew hates heterosexuals.

Anonymous said...

Ann,
I think that the meme that male homosexuals have hangups about female heterosexuals is just a reflection of suppressed bigotry and I'm a bit disappointed in you.

I've haven't followed this kerfuffle all that closely, mainly because my (second or third) reaction was: grow up, none of you are still in jr. high.

Congrats on your engagement, however it may have come about.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

"I think that the meme that male homosexuals have hangups about female heterosexuals is just a reflection of suppressed bigotry and I'm a bit disappointed in you."

Of course, women who confuse decent leadership and being taken seriously for doing quality work with being adored, worshiped, admired, lusted after, etc. just because might not see the difference.

I mean, come on! The outcome from this blog that has caused Althouse the most pride is catching a husband off it! That's certainly reason for joy. But it doesn't exactly leave her with anything to show for regarding any lucid and notable intellectual contributions it could have made. She doesn't understand the difference between that and the attention that comes from being contrarian and controversial - just like her hero Rush Limbaugh! Talk about not having pro-woman credentials! But the point is that neither one of these two characters are interested in being taken seriously so much as they are interested in causing the kind of stir you see in a smirking toddler who thinks (and demands!) that others find his own farts as amusing as he does.

Sullivan's on record as admiring (in a supposedly platonic sense) Margaret Thatcher. He also hired lesbian Camille Paglia (who might also, for some unexplained reason, be a notorious woman-hater) to write for the journal he edited over the disapproval of their colleagues. Hmmm... Sullivan helps fuel the career of a talented and thought-provoking female writer, whereas the only person whose career Althouse has promoted, so far as anyone knows, is Rush Limbaugh! But Sullivan's the misogynist! Brains, anyone?

It would be nice to see all the Dashing Defenders of All Women Everywhere here define exactly what is their reasonable standard by which Palin should have been taken more seriously by Sullivan, or anyone else for that matter. Including all the women of America for whom her appeal dropped like a lead balloon. But that, of course, won't happen. Making sense is not a spectator sport.

Ritmo Re-Animated said...

Listening to an admirer of Rush Limbaugh accuse others of misogyny is like listening to Joseph Goebbels accuse others of anti-semitism. The fact that Althouse is too dense to get this is prima facie evidence of why no one takes her seriously.

Lindsey said...

The problem with gay marriage has nothing to do with gay people. Gay people don't even fit in the picture: What happens when you remove reproduction from marriage? Head on down to the ghetto at night to find out.

Pogo Park said...

Ann, Andrew is entitled to his skepticism and like any gay person who desires to marry but can't, he's entitled to sour grapes. It's completely inappropriate for us straight people to take offense at any hot bloodedness that surrounds this issue. Your posting on this issue reminded me of this section of what you quoted above:

"[But] I was too narcissistic to realise that it wasn’t about me.”"

None of this has anything to do with you, so I'm trying to figure out why you're putting yourself in the middle of it. Why?

Pogo Park said...

Lindsay said: "The problem with gay marriage has nothing to do with gay people. Gay people don't even fit in the picture: What happens when you remove reproduction from marriage? Head on down to the ghetto at night to find out."

What on earth are you talking about?

Broken Yogi said...

"What happens when you remove reproduction from marriage? Head on down to the ghetto at night to find out."

Alright, Lindsey, explain why you are dissing Ann's marriage with Meade here? We all know she's past child-bearing age, but just because they definitely are removing reproduction from their marriage doesn't mean it isn't valid. And it doesn't mean she's going ghetto either. You owe the host here an apology. You must hate all heterosexual women, or at least those past child-bearing age.

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